Which helicopter gun is better and why?

[Nizark]

I am not a weapons man , but I know yall are, so tell me, which gun is better for eliminating your target and why when it comes to helicopter aerial guns. Is it a weight and balance thing, is the cannon new to helicopters, or are both guns suited for things only an apache or cobra can do? Thanks

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/apache2.jpg
Cannon

or

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-1-5.jpg
3 barrel 20mm gun

[Guttorm]

I think they are armed according to mission.

[HumanShield]

i think they are used according to the mission. Apache can hold more armaments than the cobra right?

[FallenAngel]

i think they are used according to the mission. Apache can hold more armaments than the cobra right?

Depends. The AH-64 can carry up to 16 Hellfire missiles. While the new AH-1Z can hold that many, the current AH-1W can only hold up to eight.

I think the difference in the type of gun doesn't matter considering they're mainly used against infantry and/or light armored targets (trucks, jeeps, maybe a thin-skinned APC, etc.).

Guns have been on Helicopters since Korea I think, although the AH-1 cobra in Vietnam was the first to have the now-familiar chin-mounted turret.

[James]

It really depends on the mission. I think a 30mm bushmaster might be better against a tank than a 20mm, but if I was a grunt on the ground calling for support, I would be happy if a an old Piper showed up, the pilot armed only with a .45.

[GazB]

The US and several other countries have investigated intensively what a gun would be used for and how in combat. The results showed that high velocity and high rate of fire were not important. They are important for shooting at aerial targets but Helos are not designed to fight aircraft.

The 30mm gun on the apache has a low rate of fire and relatively low velocity but a pretty good payload and is effective enough.

The 20mm gatling on the Cobra is "half a Vulcan". ie it has three barrels removed so one spin of the barrels fires 3 rounds instead of 6. It is still a fighters gun so the ammo is not ideal... high velocity with lighter rounds... the opposite of what is needed, but it was available and cheap... and much lighter than the 30mm gun and ammo used on the apache.

On Russian helos the first real dedicated helo gun was the 50 cal 4 barrel gatling on the D model Hinds. A rate of fire of about 5,000 rpm and reasonable accuracy up to 1.5km. The problem is of course if you are firing 50 cal and the target is firing 50 then you are trading ammo with someone you can't outrange. The result was a fixed 30mm cannon. It was high velocity but with a heavy shell... the Russians prefer heavy projectiles for their aerial cannon. It meant the late model Hinds generally outranged most of the ground fire. Current model Hinds have a lighter twin 23mm cannon in a nose turret. The projectile is reasonable heavy for the calibre (196 grams) and can be used by the gunner instead of the fixed 30mm that could only be used by the pilot turnign the whole aircraft.

Current Russian gunships have the Russian army 2A42 30mm cannon which can fire AP and HE ammo and has a high velocity but relatively heavy projectiles and a variable rate of fire. (plus ammo is shared with the groudn units' BMP-2s and BMP-3s and Tunguska SPAAGs.)

To sum up for ground targets the Apache's 30mm gun and Russian 30mm guns are probably the best, with the Russian weapons fully dual feed so that the pilots or gunners can select HE or AP at the flick of a switch... the AP being better for air to air use given its relatively high velocity.

The 20mm is adequate and for the price probably quite acceptable.

[Merik]

i think they are used according to the mission. Apache can hold more armaments than the cobra right?

Depends. The AH-64 can carry up to 16 Hellfire missiles. While the new AH-1Z can hold that many, the current AH-1W can only hold up to eight.

I think the difference in the type of gun doesn't matter considering they're mainly used against infantry and/or light armored targets (trucks, jeeps, maybe a thin-skinned APC, etc.).

Guns have been on Helicopters since Korea I think, although the AH-1 cobra in Vietnam was the first to have the now-familiar chin-mounted turret.

First chin mounted turret was the 40mm Grenade Launcher, or forty-mike-mike, that was used on Uh-1B and -C gunships as well as an experimental Ch-47 gunship.

[NcDeuce]

Hell Fires are lovely

[Argentina.Korps]

It depends of the mission, but I thing the cannon has more gun power ;)

[mustamato]

GazB said all that had to be said. I´m myself a big fan of russian
equipment. And in terms of guns on their latest choppers they have:

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mi28/images/havoc1.jpg
Mi-28, Just look at it, what a badass

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mi28/images/havoc4.jpg
And its gun, 30 mm automatic cannon, 2A42

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ka50/images/Ka50_12.jpg
The Ka-50 is armed with a 2A42 quick-firing 30mm gun which has an
unrestricted azimuth and elevation range mounting for use against
airborne or ground targets. The gun is equipped with 460 rounds of
ammunition, two types being carried, high-fragmentation and explosive
incendiary rounds and armour-piercing rounds. The pilot selects the type
of ammunition in flight. The weight of the ammunition is 0.39kg each
round, the muzzle velocity is 980m/s and the range is up to 4km. The
gun provides an angular firing accuracy of 2 to 4 mrad.

[NcDeuce]

http://globalspecops.com/gallery/ac130hspectre_1.jpg

You don't wanna mess with this mamajamma. Two 20 mm cannons. 1 40 mm cannon. And the 105 howitzer!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/ac-130h-dll.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/ac-130u_105mm_990904a.jpg

[DE_Six]

Ha ha! Forget the Hellfire and all that 100k-a-piece stuff! (Kidding!)

Here comes the mighty laser-guided FFAR! Precision guided and area denial in a single package, at the fraction of the cost of an Hellfire. This is BAe's proposal, Rayhteon is also developping one to get the US DoD contract.

http://www.ids.na.baesystems.com/MADS/Products/lcpk/LCPK_1.htm

Of course, one for one, it doesn't have the punch of an Hellfire, but I'm sure if you put 10 of them on a single armor, it won't look too good afterward.

[mustamato]

Of course, one for one, it doesn't have the punch of an Hellfire, but I'm sure if you put 10 of them on a single armor, it won't look too good afterward.

"All this is achieved with a unit production cost of less than $10,000 per round for the complete rocket in high rate production quantities."

$100.000 for one strike on a tank, and a Hellfire costs like $50.000?

[DE_Six]

Of course, anti-armor use would be last resort, I guess, if say the Hellfires ran out. But it's a big save if you consider how Schwarzkopf blasted Apache pilots in 1991 for using the 50K Hellfires to destroy trucks, bunkers and even...tents! With the current Hydra-70 accuracy, it's not really effective against vehicles or small targets. It is very good at covering an area the size of a football field, though. A laser-guided rocket would provide something in between the FFAR and the ATGM. All in all, more bangs for the bucks.

[usa320]

Id say no more than 5 more posts before someone posts an A-10 pic.

[Merik]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-10-19990422-f-7910d-509.jpg

Cheers woot

[GazB]

I should mention that although the cobra's gun (20mm) is rather less effective at air to ground than the Apaches 30mm, it is rather better at air to air than the apaches 30mm... simply because of its rate of fire and velocity advantages. Of course a helo is designe dto attack ground targets... not other aircraft.

Regarding the laser guidance packages for unguided rockets the Russians have two designs of packages... one, called Ugroza is used on 80mm, 122mm, 240mm, and 340mm standard unguided rockets, while the other design can be used on all these rockets and the smaller 57mm rockets as well. Compared to Hellfire these systems (and the western systems... the British, French and Americans are all working on their own designs) are small and light enough to be carried in large numbers.
Don't think of them as replacing Hellfire or TOW or the Russian Vikhr or Shturm or Trigate and HOT. They are replacing the existing unguided rockets for use against trucks or individual APCs or light bunkers. Instead of salvoing 19 x 70mm rockets to take out a group of trucks, you might fire 4-5 rockets and actually do a better job.

(Note with the Russian system in 57mm the warheads are about 800 grams or 0.8kgs and are carried in rocket pods carrying 32 rounds. Such a warhead is good for exposed troops or light unarmoured trucks... say 30 target kills per pod... the 80mm rockets have up to 8kg warheads and could take on IFVs and most tanks from the side or rear or above... the 122mm rockets have warheads of up to 30kgs with a calibre large enough to take on most tanks from the front and most general bunkers. The 240mm rockets have 125 kg warheads which adds large reinforced concrete bunkers. The 340mm rockets have 150kg warheads that could ruin most battlefield target's day... the point is that with laser guidance these weapons no longer need to be salvo fired and can be safely used at maximum range and still be relied on to hit their targets. It makes an Apache with two 19 round 70mm rocket pods and 8 Hellfires plus its gun a very formidible aircraft. (It also makes the Mi-28N with its 30mm gun, two 20 round 80mm rocket pods, and 16 Ataka ATGMs quite formidible too).