Hezbollah strikes IDF posts on northern border

[Moledet]

By *******

Hezbollah guerrillas slammed mortar bombs into an Israel Defense Forces post on the Israel-Lebanon border Wednesday.

The attack was the first serious incident on the border for over a month.

Hezbollah confirmed it attacked three IDF posts in the area.

IDF forces retaliated with artillery fire, Hezbollah's al-Manar television reported.

I recommend using the upgraded MLRS and to turn any of their outposts to dust.

BTW, it is not mentioned in the report that the Hizbullah passed the international border and shot at the soldiers.

[ShotOver]

Dosnt the IDF have country-battery technology to get rid of this crap?

[Moledet]

Dosnt the IDF have country-battery technology to get rid of this crap?
Nautilus AKA THEL? Still in development.

[ShotOver]

What about some of the radar systems the US used in Iraq, so that the 155's could hit straight back at the rebel/Iraqi army's rounds are comming in from..

Thought the IDF would be up with the tech on that one.

[PeterG]

What about some of the radar systems the US used in Iraq, so that the 155's could hit straight back at the rebel/Iraqi army's rounds are comming in from..

Thought the IDF would be up with the tech on that one.

How about a 2000lb JDAM through the roof of the local hizbollah commander's private residence..?

[SeanAshi]

By *******

Hezbollah guerrillas slammed mortar bombs into an Israel Defense Forces post on the Israel-Lebanon border Wednesday.

The attack was the first serious incident on the border for over a month.

Hezbollah confirmed it attacked three IDF posts in the area.

IDF forces retaliated with artillery fire, Hezbollah's al-Manar television reported.

I recommend using the upgraded MLRS and to turn any of their outposts to dust.

BTW, it is not mentioned in the report that the Hizbullah passed the international border and shot at the soldiers.Send some drones looking for Nasrallah and fire a hellfire missile up his arse.

[Zander]

woot

[Mr. Nielsen]

By *******

Hezbollah guerrillas slammed mortar bombs into an Israel Defense Forces post on the Israel-Lebanon border Wednesday.

The attack was the first serious incident on the border for over a month.

Hezbollah confirmed it attacked three IDF posts in the area.

IDF forces retaliated with artillery fire, Hezbollah's al-Manar television reported.

I recommend using the upgraded MLRS and to turn any of their outposts to dust.

BTW, it is not mentioned in the report that the Hizbullah passed the international border and shot at the soldiers.

It's not the israeli border they crossed. It's the border between lebanon and israeli occupied territory (either lebanese or syrian).

The border between israel and lebanon have been pretty quiet since israels withdrawal in 2000.

[DuDe]

By *******

Hezbollah guerrillas slammed mortar bombs into an Israel Defense Forces post on the Israel-Lebanon border Wednesday.

The attack was the first serious incident on the border for over a month.

Hezbollah confirmed it attacked three IDF posts in the area.

IDF forces retaliated with artillery fire, Hezbollah's al-Manar television reported.

I recommend using the upgraded MLRS and to turn any of their outposts to dust.

BTW, it is not mentioned in the report that the Hizbullah passed the international border and shot at the soldiers.

It's not the israeli border they crossed. It's the border between lebanon and israeli occupied territory (either lebanese or syrian).

The border between israel and lebanon have been pretty quiet since israels withdrawal in 2000.
Bull****, they've crossed the international border which is recognized by the UN, and in fact by any other nation in the world, except from the Hezbollah.
Zander : drink gas and die, you ****ing idiot.

[Mr. Nielsen]

By *******

Hezbollah guerrillas slammed mortar bombs into an Israel Defense Forces post on the Israel-Lebanon border Wednesday.

The attack was the first serious incident on the border for over a month.

Hezbollah confirmed it attacked three IDF posts in the area.

IDF forces retaliated with artillery fire, Hezbollah's al-Manar television reported.

I recommend using the upgraded MLRS and to turn any of their outposts to dust.

BTW, it is not mentioned in the report that the Hizbullah passed the international border and shot at the soldiers.

It's not the israeli border they crossed. It's the border between lebanon and israeli occupied territory (either lebanese or syrian).

The border between israel and lebanon have been pretty quiet since israels withdrawal in 2000.
Bull****, they've crossed the international border which is recognized by the UN, and in fact by any other nation in the world, except from the Hezbollah.
Zander : drink gas and die, you f*** idiot.

According to the UN the international border between lebanon and syria have been crossed.

The international border between israel and lebanon have not been crossed.

And to those who believe, that Sheeba Farms are lebanese, not syrian, no border have been crossed at all.

[Palmach]

According to the UN Israel has fully vocated Lebanese territory. An attack on Israeli troops by memebers of Lebanese groups in a territory internationally recognized and NOT belonging to Lebanon is an act of blatant agression.

However, if we follow your logic (which states that it is ok for Lebanese to attack Israelis in supposedly Syrian territory) then the best responce would be to bomb Assad's palace. Then everyone will be satisfied.

[Mr. Nielsen]

According to the UN Israel has fully vocated Lebanese territory. An attack on Israeli troops by memebers of Lebanese groups in a territory internationally recognized and NOT belonging to Lebanon is an act of blatant agression.

As said before the UN says that the international border seperates lebanon proper from the Sheeba Farms which are syrian. Is attacking israeli troops in syrian territory an act of blatant aggresion? Perhaps the presence of israeli troops in syrian territory is a blatant act of aggression?



However, if we follow your logic (which states that it is ok for Lebanese to attack Israelis in supposedly Syrian territory) then the best responce would be to bomb Assad's palace. Then everyone will be satisfied.

My logic tells me that there is a difference between a danish soldier being attacked in Basra*, and one being attacked in Denmark proper.

*by the way, thats an UN sanctioned occupation

[Moledet]

Nielsen, you are stupid, check what's the Blue line.

BTW, if we are already inside Lebanese territory how can we cross the border into Lebanon as the hizbullah claims everytime we bomb its ass?

P.S. one brave IDF soldier was killed, RIP.

The full story is that Maglan did an ambush near the border when they notcied a group of 5 terrorists passing the border, they shot at them and killed one (as always the brave fighters leave the body behind). Because they were uncovered the Hizbullah started shooting mortars to cover the cowards retreat. By the Mortars one IDF soldier was killed.
Later the IAF attacked targets inside Lebanon with Helicopters and Jet fighters and the IDF shot mortars back at the Hizbullah.

[seruriermarshal]

Rest In Peace

:(

[Mr. Nielsen]

Nielsen, you are stupid, check what's the Blue line.

BTW, if we are already inside Lebanese territory how can we cross the border into Lebanon as the hizbullah claims everytime we bomb its ass?


Why don't you ask Hizbollah that.

I'm still just stating that they did not cross the israeli border, whoever Sheeba Farms belongs to, lebanon or syria.

And here are a few maps, for those who wonder what the heck is being debated.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41247000/gif/_41247379_leb_shebaa_map203.gif

http://palestinefacts.org/images/map_shaaba_farms.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Golan_92.jpg

http://www.meib.org/images/0105_shebaamap.jpg

[SeanAshi]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

[Moledet]

As you can see by the blue line, we do not hold any Lebanese territory.
Hizbullah has no right to attack Israel in Syria's name and nowdays not in Lebanon's name.

[RP]

http://www.meib.org/images/0105_shebaamap.jpg
This map is obviuesly a joke or smt, cuz it's defiently not where the blue line is.
I myself sat in the same post where that soldier died for about a month and a half, and according to this map is part of Syria which is a joke.
Kfar Shouba (north to Shebaa Farms) is border with Israel and not with Syra like you see in this map.
What they call Shebaa Farms, or mount Dov (Jabel Ras) is part of Israel according to the national border (recognized by the UN!) and not part of Syra or Lebanon.

[Anonymosity]

Hezbollah is only helping the palestinians free themselves from the shackles of the zionist occupation.





































































































































rofl

[Holycrusader]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

[fantassin]

Since when crossing an international border is a problem for the IDF ?

[Mr. Nielsen]

http://www.meib.org/images/0105_shebaamap.jpg
This map is obviuesly a joke or smt, cuz it's defiently not where the blue line is.
I myself sat in the same post where that soldier died for about a month and a half, and according to this map is part of Syria which is a joke.
Kfar Shouba (north to Shebaa Farms) is border with Israel and not with Syra like you see in this map.
What they call Shebaa Farms, or mount Dov (Jabel Ras) is part of Israel according to the national border (recognized by the UN!) and not part of Syra or Lebanon.

If you got a better map throw it in.
There must be an officiel UN map somewhere, can anyone find it?

[PeterG]

An organization like hezbollah,would find it difficult to exist in a situation of 'peace'.They need an ongoing conflict at all times - if the sheeba farm issue were to be resolved,they would have to create another rallying point.It is in the nature of such groups.

[Moledet]

And the fight continues...
The 5 hizbullah terrorists that crossed the border were found walking around the area again, this time only two, Egoz killed one of them.

BTW, Neilsen the map from the UN site:
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/dpko/unifil.pdf
(I can't believe I entered this site).

[PigSnake]

An organization like hezbollah,would find it difficult to exist in a situation of 'peace'.They need an ongoing conflict at all times - if the sheeba farm issue were to be resolved,they would have to create another rallying point.It is in the nature of such groups.


exactly!

and that's the reason why they pulled a stunt like this.....to provoke a response from israel to show that their presence in southern lebanon is required since they are doing their duty "potecting lebanese sovreignity" from the "zionist aggressors".

hizbullah in reality has no reason to exist since israel has withdrawn totally from southern lebanon in 2000 and the border has been international recognised and sanctioned by the UN and the shebaa farms belong to syria and not lebanon.

they really are nothing more than an iranian proxy, kept there to keep breahing down israel's neck. it's about time the international community seriously and honestly begin to question hizbullah's raison d'etre, since they have no reason to exist, at least as a paramilitary force in southern lebanon.....if they wish to be a political party that's a different story, but for now i dont see them going in that direction.
[/i]

[olowy]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

No. Israel has been able to successfully remove terrorist forces from its borders several times (such as '78 and '82). It is when they changed to keeping the security zone with bases (that obviously could not be moved), standard patrols, no clear ending and a bad decision to bugout the way it did that it unraveled. Plus the world community won't let Israel go use its full force to clear Hizbollah out. The US can go across the world and use its forces to the full to clear out terrorists, but Israel isn't allowed to clear out terrorists in its own backyard.

[olowy]

And the fight continues...
The 5 hizbullah terrorists that crossed the border were found walking around the area again, this time only two, Egoz killed one of them.

BTW, Neilsen the map from the UN site:
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/dpko/unifil.pdf
(I can't believe I entered this site).

Interesting map though, especially the placement of all the UN observation post.

UN observation post: There is Hizbollah...They are breaching the border now....Ok, here they are coming back.

Also, I like that Majda Shams is marked as being in Syria (yes I know that technically it is Syrian land captured by Israel, but it just not very reflective about what is really going on).

[Holycrusader]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

No. Israel has been able to successfully remove terrorist forces from its borders several times (such as '78 and '82). It is when they changed to keeping the security zone with bases (that obviously could not be moved), standard patrols, no clear ending and a bad decision to bugout the way it did that it unraveled. Plus the world community won't let Israel go use its full force to clear Hizbollah out. The US can go across the world and use its forces to the full to clear out terrorists, but Israel isn't allowed to clear out terrorists in its own backyard.

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.
And from many years Hizbollah attack only military targets, so why call them terrorists? I know that thay shoot some artillery on a civilian areas but your forces do exactly the same.

[PigSnake]

is there hope?


Jul. 1, 2005 4:44 | Updated Jul. 1, 2005 5:09
UNSC 'concerned' over Hizb. attack
By ASSOCIATED PRESS


UNITED NATIONS

The UN Security Council on Thursday expressed concern about an attack by Hizbullah guerrillas along the Lebanon-Israel border that killed an Israeli soldier, and again urged the Lebanese government to extend control over its territory.

The statement, which also expressed concern about subsequent clashes between Hizbullah and Israeli forces after the Wednesday attack, came after Israeli Ambassador Dan Gillerman had urged the council to address the issue.

US Ambassador Anne Patterson said the statement was not as strong as the United States wanted because it made no mention of Security Council Resolution 1559, which demands that all armed militia in Lebanon disarm, a clear reference to Hezbollah.

"This was a difficult negotiation," Patterson told reporters. "The statement was weaker than we would have liked."

The guerrillas attacked three Israeli positions in Sheba Farms, an area where the borders of Lebanon, Syria and Israel meet, with mortars and rocket-propelled grenades, Lebanese security officials said.

The council statement urged Lebanon to "exert its monopoly on the use of force and to put an end to all attacks emanating from its territory."

Sheba Farms has become the focus of Hezbollah attacks on Israeli forces since the Jewish state withdrew its troops from southern Lebanon in 2000. Hezbollah attacks the enclave periodically, the last time being May 21.

Lebanon and Syria say Sheba Farms is Lebanese territory, but U.N. cartographers who surveyed the border after the Israeli withdrawal said it belongs to that part of Syria which Israel has occupied since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

Gillerman said afterward the statement sent a strong message. He accused Hizbullah and the Lebanese government of trying to destabilize the region.

[PigSnake]

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.

there you see...... there is absolutely no reason for them to exist anymore - israel withdrew, the war is over, everyone is happy. hizbullah, goodbye

[Holycrusader]

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.

there you see...... there is absolutely no reason for them to exist anymore - israel withdrew, the war is over, everyone is happy. hizbullah, goodbye

Maybe they are scary that Israel can return back! If you want a peace, prepare to war or somethng like that. Remember that hizbullah do lots of civilian work in this area. They have their own politic wing etc.

[PigSnake]

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.

there you see...... there is absolutely no reason for them to exist anymore - israel withdrew, the war is over, everyone is happy. hizbullah, goodbye

Maybe they are scary that Israel can return back! If you want a peace, prepare to war or somethng like that. Remember that hizbullah do lots of civilian work in this area. They have their own politic wing etc.

the only reason i could see israel going back is to get rid of hizbullah.....so for me the equation is: no hizbullah, no israeli intervention - no israeli intervention, no hizbullah. ;)

like i said earlier, hizbullah are basically an iranian proxy, a strategic puppet in the hands of the iranian regime. its like a deterrent for them......in case israel attacks iran, the iranians already have the northern front covered.

[SeanAshi]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

No. Israel has been able to successfully remove terrorist forces from its borders several times (such as '78 and '82). It is when they changed to keeping the security zone with bases (that obviously could not be moved), standard patrols, no clear ending and a bad decision to bugout the way it did that it unraveled. Plus the world community won't let Israel go use its full force to clear Hizbollah out. The US can go across the world and use its forces to the full to clear out terrorists, but Israel isn't allowed to clear out terrorists in its own backyard.

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.
And from many years Hizbollah attack only military targets, so why call them terrorists? I know that thay shoot some artillery on a civilian areas but your forces do exactly the same.blame the PLO for that. they wanted to provoke Israel into a conflict.

[Holycrusader]

blame the PLO for that. they wanted to provoke Israel into a conflict.

And they achieve their target. That was bad for Lebanon, bad for israeli soldiers and bad for Israeli refugees. But after that war peace talks were a must for both sides.

[Moledet]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

No. Israel has been able to successfully remove terrorist forces from its borders several times (such as '78 and '82). It is when they changed to keeping the security zone with bases (that obviously could not be moved), standard patrols, no clear ending and a bad decision to bugout the way it did that it unraveled. Plus the world community won't let Israel go use its full force to clear Hizbollah out. The US can go across the world and use its forces to the full to clear out terrorists, but Israel isn't allowed to clear out terrorists in its own backyard.

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.
And from many years Hizbollah attack only military targets, so why call them terrorists? I know that thay shoot some artillery on a civilian areas but your forces do exactly the same.
Yep, the hizbullaha was created to fight the IDF in Lebanon, but now the IDF isn't in Lebanon.
Hizbullaha shot intentionaly to kill Israeli civilians, they bombed them not "some" times but many times, that's without mentioning involvement in other ineternational terror attacks against Israel and the US (300 Americans were killed by the Hizbullaha).

They have no justification to exist, if Israel will decide to invade Lebanon for any reason the Hizbullaha won't be able to stop it.

BTW, Israel left because they promised to stop shooting on Israeli civilians and to stop attacking them, which were the goals of the operation.

[Holycrusader]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

No. Israel has been able to successfully remove terrorist forces from its borders several times (such as '78 and '82). It is when they changed to keeping the security zone with bases (that obviously could not be moved), standard patrols, no clear ending and a bad decision to bugout the way it did that it unraveled. Plus the world community won't let Israel go use its full force to clear Hizbollah out. The US can go across the world and use its forces to the full to clear out terrorists, but Israel isn't allowed to clear out terrorists in its own backyard.

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.
And from many years Hizbollah attack only military targets, so why call them terrorists? I know that thay shoot some artillery on a civilian areas but your forces do exactly the same.
Yep, the hizbullaha was created to fight the IDF in Lebanon, but now the IDF isn't in Lebanon.
Hizbullaha shot intentionaly to kill Israeli civilians, they bombed them not "some" times but many times, that's without mentioning involvement in other ineternational terror attacks against Israel and the US (300 Americans were killed by the Hizbullaha).

They have no justification to exist, if Israel will decide to invade Lebanon for any reason the Hizbullaha won't be able to stop it.

BTW, Israel left because they promised to stop shooting on Israeli civilians and to stop attacking them, which were the goals of the operation.

You forget that they kill American marines after US Navy start to bombard they position (it is hardly to call Americans neutral). After killing those marines they achieve they targets once again (effective are they?). And pls do not call killing soldiers and later CIA agents in US embassy bombing
a terrorist act. US just recive a responce after they involve in that conflict.
As to the US embassy bombing I thing that was a syrian or even russian operation. The time of bombing was too good to be accidental.

And btw in their opinion Israel still occupy their territory. As to the shooting on civilians both sides like to do that. I think Lebanon lost more civilians from Israel shooting than Lebanon.

You have right "if Israel will decide to invade Lebanon for any reason the Hizbullaha won't be able to stop it." but they still be able to make that decision too costly in Israeli soldiers and civilians life. As american already learn once again a invasion is a simplest part, occupation is a hardest...

Good luck! I hope Israel will be able to peacefully coexist with their neighbours and Palestinian. But first you need to forgive and ask about the same oposite site. Force is not the best solution here.

[Ameen]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050630/i/r1984436325.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050630/capt.bei10606301500.mideast_lebanon_israel_bei106.jpg

[DuDe]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:



Funny that you say that, as you're sitting comfortably 10,000 kilometers away from there. Journalists have interviewed inhabitants of Southern Lebanon many times, and when the gun wielding "freedom fighters" were away, they always said that the Hezbullah have done nothing but turn Southern Lebanon into a ****hole. They have instated a reign of terror in which people that object their views are being threatened and shot, and their ongoing attempts to escalate the situation at the border will eventually bring to a war in which the amount of casualties on the Lebanese side of the border will be steep. Hezbullah will not survive, UN decision 1559 only hastens the inevitable.

[Moledet]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050630/i/r1984436325.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050630/capt.bei10606301500.mideast_lebanon_israel_bei106.jpg
LOL...right.
Lebanon finaly has its economy rolling thanks to tourism, in a time of a conflict there wouldn't be any tourists and they'll drop into a ****hole once again. We can easily bomb the hizbullaha every day, this will be published in the news and tourists won't come to Lebanon.

One battery of MLRS each day and the blasts will keep tourists away from Lebanon, far away.

[PeterG]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:



Funny that you say that, as you're sitting comfortably 10,000 kilometers away from there. Journalists have interviewed inhabitants of Southern Lebanon many times, and when the gun wielding "freedom fighters" were away, they always said that the Hezbullah have done nothing but turn Southern Lebanon into a ****hole. They have instated a reign of terror in which people that object their views are being threatened and shot, and their ongoing attempts to escalate the situation at the border will eventually bring to a war in which the amount of casualties on the Lebanese side of the border will be steep. Hezbullah will not survive, UN decision 1559 only hastens the inevitable.

Funny how so many muslim fundamentalists seem to consider christian,western countries the only place to live....There is something schizophrenic about it.Do everything possible to get 'asylum' in a western nation - then badmouth everything about our 'infidel ways',and even actively support those who seek to destroy us.

[Moledet]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

No. Israel has been able to successfully remove terrorist forces from its borders several times (such as '78 and '82). It is when they changed to keeping the security zone with bases (that obviously could not be moved), standard patrols, no clear ending and a bad decision to bugout the way it did that it unraveled. Plus the world community won't let Israel go use its full force to clear Hizbollah out. The US can go across the world and use its forces to the full to clear out terrorists, but Israel isn't allowed to clear out terrorists in its own backyard.

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.
And from many years Hizbollah attack only military targets, so why call them terrorists? I know that thay shoot some artillery on a civilian areas but your forces do exactly the same.
Yep, the hizbullaha was created to fight the IDF in Lebanon, but now the IDF isn't in Lebanon.
Hizbullaha shot intentionaly to kill Israeli civilians, they bombed them not "some" times but many times, that's without mentioning involvement in other ineternational terror attacks against Israel and the US (300 Americans were killed by the Hizbullaha).

They have no justification to exist, if Israel will decide to invade Lebanon for any reason the Hizbullaha won't be able to stop it.

BTW, Israel left because they promised to stop shooting on Israeli civilians and to stop attacking them, which were the goals of the operation.

You forget that they kill American marines after US Navy start to bombard they position (it is hardly to call Americans neutral). After killing those marines they achieve they targets once again (effective are they?). And pls do not call killing soldiers and later CIA agents in US embassy bombing
a terrorist act. US just recive a responce after they involve in that conflict.
As to the US embassy bombing I thing that was a syrian or even russian operation. The time of bombing was too good to be accidental.

And btw in their opinion Israel still occupy their territory. As to the shooting on civilians both sides like to do that. I think Lebanon lost more civilians from Israel shooting than Lebanon.

You have right "if Israel will decide to invade Lebanon for any reason the Hizbullaha won't be able to stop it." but they still be able to make that decision too costly in Israeli soldiers and civilians life. As american already learn once again a invasion is a simplest part, occupation is a hardest...

Good luck! I hope Israel will be able to peacefully coexist with their neighbours and Palestinian. But first you need to forgive and ask about the same oposite site. Force is not the best solution here.
Just 4 months ago Hizbullah promissed an increase in funding to any Palestinian terror group that will create a terror attack against Israeli civilians. Not to mention their involvement in Karin A and other weapons smuggling attempts and in planning Palestinian terror attacks.

Hizbullah is also responsible for the bombings in Argentina of the Israeli embassy and AMIA bombing. And for the bombing of the Israeli embassy in London. Not a terror organization? pfffffffft.

They also killed French marines, 58 to be exact, and they didn't bomb anything.

Yeah, Israel every day shoots artilery on Lebanese city. You are stupid.
Ofcourse Lebanon lost more people, they tried to fight Israel.

We can enter Lebanon, turn it into dust, and get out, without occupying anything. What will the Hizbullah do then?

[Holycrusader]

Yeah, Israel every day shoots artilery on Lebanese city. You are stupid.
Ofcourse Lebanon lost more people, they tried to fight Israel.

We can enter Lebanon, turn it into dust, and get out, without occupying anything. What will the Hizbullah do then?

Do this and found out. Its your country and your co-citizens. Bomb Lebanon into oblivion and then you will be feeling better woot

You want to show those islamofascist how peacefully and civilised you are rofl

Its very sad that Jews so fast forget, how it is it to live in getto, be refugee and be afraid on the daily basis. So pls turn Lebanon into dust just like some people turn some Jewish cities into dust about 60 years ago (hint they were not from hizzbullah)

[Moledet]

Yeah, Israel every day shoots artilery on Lebanese city. You are stupid.
Ofcourse Lebanon lost more people, they tried to fight Israel.

We can enter Lebanon, turn it into dust, and get out, without occupying anything. What will the Hizbullah do then?

Do this and found out. Its your country and your co-citizens. Bomb Lebanon into oblivion and then you will be feeling better woot

You want to show those islamofascist how peacefully and civilised you are rofl

Its very sad that Jews so fast forget, how it is it to live in getto, be refugee and be afraid on the daily basis. So pls turn Lebanon into dust just like some people turn some Jewish cities into dust about 60 years ago (hint they were not from hizzbullah)
You said the hizbullah is a detterant, it certainly isn't.

Lebanese citizens don't live in a ghetto, some of them live in refugee camps, ofcourse you can't notice the diffrence since you turned Auschwitz into a play park.

There were no Jewish ciites 60 yeas ago apart of Tel Aviv and it's still standing.

I proved you wrong, you are feeling bad so you are turning to WW2, understandable for a eurowuss.

[SeanAshi]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050630/i/r1984436325.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050630/capt.bei10606301500.mideast_lebanon_israel_bei106.jpg
LOL...right.
Lebanon finaly has its economy rolling thanks to tourism, in a time of a conflict there wouldn't be any tourists and they'll drop into a ****hole once again. We can easily bomb the hizbullaha every day, this will be published in the news and tourists won't come to Lebanon.

One battery of MLRS each day and the blasts will keep tourists away from Lebanon, far away.
I'm shocked their not burning our flags, I swear you would think thats a sport in the mideast rofl Careful now don't wanna catch your kuffiyeh on fire. rofl

[Inquisitor]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050630/i/r1984436325.jpg

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050630/capt.bei10606301500.mideast_lebanon_israel_bei106.jpg


hehe good job lebanon ;)

[olowy]

Hezbollah should be removed from the border by overwhelming force because they are just going to keep at it and never stop.

You army try it and failed... Go and do it yourself :roll:

No. Israel has been able to successfully remove terrorist forces from its borders several times (such as '78 and '82). It is when they changed to keeping the security zone with bases (that obviously could not be moved), standard patrols, no clear ending and a bad decision to bugout the way it did that it unraveled. Plus the world community won't let Israel go use its full force to clear Hizbollah out. The US can go across the world and use its forces to the full to clear out terrorists, but Israel isn't allowed to clear out terrorists in its own backyard.

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.
And from many years Hizbollah attack only military targets, so why call them terrorists? I know that thay shoot some artillery on a civilian areas but your forces do exactly the same.

Well, they are terrorists for their attack on the American and French forces, including the American embassy, their involvement in the kidnapping and killings of Americans in Lebanon, the navy diver on a hijacked plane, as well as the attacks on the Israeli Embassy (29 killed and 242 wounded) and the AMIA (which killed 86 and wounded 300) in Buenos Aires, Argentina. and the car bombing of the the Israeli Embassy in London.

And why aren't the palestinians the blame or the Iranians for creating the group? If the plo did defacto take over Lebanon (as they did in Jordan) Israel would have not had to interven. But I guess Israel is the only country not allowed to have secured borders.

[Ameen]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:



Funny that you say that, as you're sitting comfortably 10,000 kilometers away from there. Journalists have interviewed inhabitants of Southern Lebanon many times, and when the gun wielding "freedom fighters" were away, they always said that the Hezbullah have done nothing but turn Southern Lebanon into a ****hole. They have instated a reign of terror in which people that object their views are being threatened and shot, and their ongoing attempts to escalate the situation at the border will eventually bring to a war in which the amount of casualties on the Lebanese side of the border will be steep. Hezbullah will not survive, UN decision 1559 only hastens the inevitable.

What do u know about the opinions of the Lebanese. I have personally talked a ton of people in southern Lebanon and members of the Hezbollah. You know nothing.

And, you say i am sitting here comfortably away from Lebanon, but you should know your facts. I still have a house in Lebanon as well as family and friends, and I am going back next year.

[SeanAshi]

Ameen tell me who do you think is responsible for pushing the IDF out of Lebanon in 2000? Hezbollah had no part in it, just like Gaza Hamas is claiming victory when they didn't do a damn thing.

[Holycrusader]

Yeah, Israel every day shoots artilery on Lebanese city. You are stupid.
Ofcourse Lebanon lost more people, they tried to fight Israel.

We can enter Lebanon, turn it into dust, and get out, without occupying anything. What will the Hizbullah do then?

Do this and found out. Its your country and your co-citizens. Bomb Lebanon into oblivion and then you will be feeling better woot

You want to show those islamofascist how peacefully and civilised you are rofl

Its very sad that Jews so fast forget, how it is it to live in getto, be refugee and be afraid on the daily basis. So pls turn Lebanon into dust just like some people turn some Jewish cities into dust about 60 years ago (hint they were not from hizzbullah)
You said the hizbullah is a detterant, it certainly isn't.

Lebanese citizens don't live in a ghetto, some of them live in refugee camps, ofcourse you can't notice the diffrence since you turned Auschwitz into a play park.

There were no Jewish ciites 60 yeas ago apart of Tel Aviv and it's still standing.

I proved you wrong, you are feeling bad so you are turning to WW2, understandable for a eurowuss.

You proved only that you are ignorant barbarian. I do not talk about lebanese living in the ghetto but Palestinians. Auschwitz is not a play park, come and check this.
60 years ago was lot of small Jewish cities in Poland ie Kazimierz, there was a lot of such places in Russia too. Try to read something about your own nation history...

And yes II WW is very understable for me. Maybe because I live in ex jewish region of Warsaw. From the window of my work I see a big jews cementary. Its very sad that the greatest part of your nation inteligence lie there or in Auschwitz. Those that survive, too fast forget their history and are now turning live of other nation in the nightmare.
From where do you come from?

[Holycrusader]

Ameen tell me who do you think is responsible for pushing the IDF out of Lebanon in 2000? Hezbollah had no part in it, just like Gaza Hamas is claiming victory when they didn't do a damn thing.
Ok you right, Hezbollah have better PR specialist than Israel. rofl
As to the Hamas tell me who help to create them? And who tolerate their existance?

[DuDe]

Hezbollah will not put down their weapons.

The Israelis dropped leaflets onto Lebanon urging the people to get rid of Hezbollah. It will never happen. This is what we think of your proposal:



Funny that you say that, as you're sitting comfortably 10,000 kilometers away from there. Journalists have interviewed inhabitants of Southern Lebanon many times, and when the gun wielding "freedom fighters" were away, they always said that the Hezbullah have done nothing but turn Southern Lebanon into a ****hole. They have instated a reign of terror in which people that object their views are being threatened and shot, and their ongoing attempts to escalate the situation at the border will eventually bring to a war in which the amount of casualties on the Lebanese side of the border will be steep. Hezbullah will not survive, UN decision 1559 only hastens the inevitable.

What do u know about the opinions of the Lebanese. I have personally talked a ton of people in southern Lebanon and members of the Hezbollah. You know nothing.

Yeah, I'm sure you did. Still doesn't change the fact that Southern Lebanon is a ****hole controlled by a reign of terror led by islamo-fascists, while the Lebanese government is doing nothing.

[JoGg]

Israel agrees to return body of Hezbollah guerrilla to Lebanon
By Haaretz Service

A newspaper in the Persian Gulf reported Saturday that Israel has agreed to return to Lebanon the body of a Hezbollah guerrilla killed during a mid-week border skirmish near the Har Dov region. Israel Defense Forces sources, however, told Army Radio the issue was discussed but no agreement has yet been secured.

The Golani Brigade's Egoz unit encountered the Hezbollah infiltrators Wednesday morning, and believes it hit two of the three cell members, most likely killing them. Searches for the third cell member were ongoing.

There were no IDF casualties in the incident.

While Israel has accused Hezbollah of having infiltrated Israel, Lebanon and Hezbollah claim the IDF entered Lebanese territory, sparking Wednesday's incident in which Hezbollah mortar fire on the Dalia outpost killed Corporal Uzi Peretz and lightly wounded an army doctor and two soldiers.

Both sides filed complaints with UNIFIL.

A UNIFIL spokesman at headquarters in Nakura said a report has been forwarded to the United Nations. He declined to say which version appears more credible.

"There will be a simple solution to this," the spokesman said. "We understand that at least one of the Hezbollah people was killed. When his body is found, the location will clarify who infiltrated whose territory," he said.

Israel Air Force planes Wednesday dropped flyers over South Lebanon, warning that the Lebanese government would bear responsibility for any operation against Israel originating on Lebanese land.

"The irresponsible actions will drag Lebanon into devastation and destruction, and will return it to the years of horror after hope had risen for calm and for the growth of a new Lebanon," the leaflet said.

Hezbollah's deputy leader, Sheikh Naim Kassem, dismissed the warning, saying: "The Israelis will get the correct and clear answer, which is that the resistance lies in wait for them. The Lebanese people are united behind it."
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/594892.html

[Moledet]

Yeah, Israel every day shoots artilery on Lebanese city. You are stupid.
Ofcourse Lebanon lost more people, they tried to fight Israel.

We can enter Lebanon, turn it into dust, and get out, without occupying anything. What will the Hizbullah do then?

Do this and found out. Its your country and your co-citizens. Bomb Lebanon into oblivion and then you will be feeling better woot

You want to show those islamofascist how peacefully and civilised you are rofl

Its very sad that Jews so fast forget, how it is it to live in getto, be refugee and be afraid on the daily basis. So pls turn Lebanon into dust just like some people turn some Jewish cities into dust about 60 years ago (hint they were not from hizzbullah)
You said the hizbullah is a detterant, it certainly isn't.

Lebanese citizens don't live in a ghetto, some of them live in refugee camps, ofcourse you can't notice the diffrence since you turned Auschwitz into a play park.

There were no Jewish ciites 60 yeas ago apart of Tel Aviv and it's still standing.

I proved you wrong, you are feeling bad so you are turning to WW2, understandable for a eurowuss.

You proved only that you are ignorant barbarian. I do not talk about lebanese living in the ghetto but Palestinians. Auschwitz is not a play park, come and check this.
60 years ago was lot of small Jewish cities in Poland ie Kazimierz, there was a lot of such places in Russia too. Try to read something about your own nation history...

And yes II WW is very understable for me. Maybe because I live in ex jewish region of Warsaw. From the window of my work I see a big jews cementary. Its very sad that the greatest part of your nation inteligence lie there or in Auschwitz. Those that survive, too fast forget their history and are now turning live of other nation in the nightmare.
From where do you come from?
There was not such a thing as a Jewish city snce Jews were not allowed to have land, it was all rented.

My grandma is from Poland and her husband is from Germany, from the other side i'm Romanian.

[Holycrusader]

There was not such a thing as a Jewish city snce Jews were not allowed to have land, it was all rented.

My grandma is from Poland and her husband is from Germany, from the other side i'm Romanian.

Ask your grandma once more time because this is bull****. If you have right than all of jewish claims regarding property in Poland will not have a legal title. Jewish have all citizen rights in Poland before WWII and after too.
I talk about Poland, I do not know nothing aboul legal system of Romania or Germany in this period..

[Moledet]

There was not such a thing as a Jewish city snce Jews were not allowed to have land, it was all rented.

My grandma is from Poland and her husband is from Germany, from the other side i'm Romanian.

Ask your grandma once more time because this is bull****. If you have right than all of jewish claims regarding property in Poland will not have a legal title. Jewish have all citizen rights in Poland before WWII and after too.
I talk about Poland, I do not know nothing aboul legal system of Romania or Germany in this period..
OK, my bad, they could buy homes, they couldn't buy land for agriculture use, but they could rent land for agriculture use.

[olowy]

Basically its is your intervention in Lebanon that create Hizbollah. In '78 and '82 you fight with Palestinians. It was Hizbollah who remove your occupying forces from its country borders.

there you see...... there is absolutely no reason for them to exist anymore - israel withdrew, the war is over, everyone is happy. hizbullah, goodbye

Maybe they are scary that Israel can return back! If you want a peace, prepare to war or somethng like that. Remember that hizbullah do lots of civilian work in this area. They have their own politic wing etc.

the only reason i could see israel going back is to get rid of hizbullah.....so for me the equation is: no hizbullah, no israeli intervention - no israeli intervention, no hizbullah. ;)

like i said earlier, hizbullah are basically an iranian proxy, a strategic puppet in the hands of the iranian regime. its like a deterrent for them......in case israel attacks iran, the iranians already have the northern front covered.

I think the purpose of the hizbullah is also for Syria to turn on the heat with out resorting using its forces on the Israeli/syrian border.

[olowy]

Yeah, Israel every day shoots artilery on Lebanese city. You are stupid.
Ofcourse Lebanon lost more people, they tried to fight Israel.

We can enter Lebanon, turn it into dust, and get out, without occupying anything. What will the Hizbullah do then?

Do this and found out. Its your country and your co-citizens. Bomb Lebanon into oblivion and then you will be feeling better woot

You want to show those islamofascist how peacefully and civilised you are rofl

Its very sad that Jews so fast forget, how it is it to live in getto, be refugee and be afraid on the daily basis. So pls turn Lebanon into dust just like some people turn some Jewish cities into dust about 60 years ago (hint they were not from hizzbullah)
You said the hizbullah is a detterant, it certainly isn't.

Lebanese citizens don't live in a ghetto, some of them live in refugee camps, ofcourse you can't notice the diffrence since you turned Auschwitz into a play park.

There were no Jewish ciites 60 yeas ago apart of Tel Aviv and it's still standing.

I proved you wrong, you are feeling bad so you are turning to WW2, understandable for a eurowuss.

You proved only that you are ignorant barbarian. I do not talk about lebanese living in the ghetto but Palestinians. Auschwitz is not a play park, come and check this.
60 years ago was lot of small Jewish cities in Poland ie Kazimierz, there was a lot of such places in Russia too. Try to read something about your own nation history...

And yes II WW is very understable for me. Maybe because I live in ex jewish region of Warsaw. From the window of my work I see a big jews cementary. Its very sad that the greatest part of your nation inteligence lie there or in Auschwitz. Those that survive, too fast forget their history and are now turning live of other nation in the nightmare.
From where do you come from?

Trying to draw a parrallel to the world war ii and what Israel does is a card always pulled by the left and is in bad form. Jews havenot forgotten their history and in fact plays a big part in their lifes. I think people are upset that they are no longer willing to go off to Aushwitz but fight for their survival.

[SeanAshi]

The Hizbullah squad that infiltrated Israeli territory in the Mount Dov region last week had apparently been part of an overall plan to kidnap IDF soldiers, OC Northern Command Maj.-Gen. Benny Gantz said on Sunday.
Hezbollah is just begging for an ass whooping. :|

[Holycrusader]

Trying to draw a parrallel to the world war ii and what Israel does is a card always pulled by the left and is in bad form. Jews havenot forgotten their history and in fact plays a big part in their lifes. I think people are upset that they are no longer willing to go off to Aushwitz but fight for their survival.

Sometimes the force is not the best solution. Thats all. Do you really think that killing so many palestinian civilians is necessary to Israel survival?
And as I see lot of Jews maybe know a history but a different one than we know in Europe. In some cases we can read about "Polish concentrational camps" and some lies about Polish underground army (AK) or pogroms in eastern Poland.
But of course good historical knowledge make me a left :roll:
Now tell me that Im antisemithe and nazi because I do not support the Israel foreign politics...

[olowy]

Trying to draw a parrallel to the world war ii and what Israel does is a card always pulled by the left and is in bad form. Jews havenot forgotten their history and in fact plays a big part in their lifes. I think people are upset that they are no longer willing to go off to Aushwitz but fight for their survival.

Sometimes the force is not the best solution. Thats all. Do you really think that killing so many palestinian civilians is necessary to Israel survival?
And as I see lot of Jews maybe know a history but a different one than we know in Europe. In some cases we can read about "Polish concentrational camps" and some lies about Polish underground army (AK) or pogroms in eastern Poland.
But of course good historical knowledge make me a left :roll:
Now tell me that Im antisemithe and nazi because I do not support the Israel foreign politics...

Where did I call you an antisemite or a Nazi for disagreeing with Israel? However, I don't understand your "good historical knowledge" paragraph at all. Are you saying there weren't concentration camps in Poland? When you say there is a European history and a different Jewish history are you saying that the final soultion and 6 million Jews were killed? Which seems to be different from what you were trying to imply in your earlier postings which makes me not sure what you saying in ypur last post

Also, unforuently, when you use force sometimes civilians do die and there is a difference between using proprotional force and having civilians die and specifically targeting civilians. Why don't you speak against the palestinians killing so many cilians as well?

Plus what does your attempt to move the thread have to do with Hizbullah?

[Holycrusader]

Where did I call you an antisemite or a Nazi for disagreeing with Israel?
Not yet
However, I don't understand your "good historical knowledge" paragraph at all. Are you saying there weren't concentration camps in Poland?
Where did I said that? They were on teritory of Poland. But thereids not such things like polish concentration camp. See differences, because lot of people didn't

When you say there is a European history and a different Jewish history are you saying that the final soultion and 6 million Jews were killed?
I do not understand a question



Which seems to be different from what you were trying to imply in your earlier postings which makes me not sure what you saying in ypur last post

Also, unforuently, when you use force sometimes civilians do die and there is a difference between using proprotional force and having civilians die and specifically targeting civilians. Why don't you speak against the palestinians killing so many cilians as well?

Here we have an easy answer. You should be better than them. Because you are a occupier, their ressistance. You have all of that expensive modern stuff that should be use to avoid civilian casualties. Instead your governmant accept assasination policy, that is very hardly to call civilized. When terrorist kill some civilians is a obvious thing, they are evil they do such things. When Israel destroy a hundreds civilian houses its for me a suprise how a modern governmant can use such a barabaricto totalitarian method. Im against killing a civilians by both sides, but pls remember that most of dead civilians are on palestinian side of the wall and this is responsibility as a occupier to avoid such things. And one last thing. We cannot said that Israel use a proportional force in this conflict :(

Plus what does your attempt to move the thread have to do with Hizbullah?

Nothing. I just make some historical comparision

[PigSnake]

Good luck! I hope Israel will be able to peacefully coexist with their neighbours and Palestinian. But first you need to forgive and ask about the same oposite site. Force is not the best solution here.

go tell that to israel's neighbors......aka lebanon, syria, iran :cantbeli:

[Moledet]

You are making this Polish concentration camps such a big deal. Everybody here learns WW2 history, we learn it for a year, people here know that the camps were built by the Nazis and not by the Poles. Every Holocaust memorial day all you can watch on TV are documantries about the holocaust, I don't think any other nation has so much knowledge about it as us.

But you can't denie that lots of Poles were happy to get rid of their Jewish neighbours and them all knew what happens to them. My grandma's borthers were both murdered by Poles in the Holocaust when they returned to their home that was occupied by Poles.
A German citizen wrote a diary that proves that he (an avarage German) knew everything of where the Jews are taken to and what is being done to them. So I bet everyone knew that, still they snitched about Jews and they murdered Jews with their barehands.
There were few good people, but most of the nation didn't give a damn and maybe even was happy.

[Holycrusader]

You are making this Polish concentration camps such a big deal. Everybody here learns WW2 history, we learn it for a year, people here know that the camps were built by the Nazis and not by the Poles. Every Holocaust memorial day all you can watch on TV are documantries about the holocaust, I don't think any other nation has so much knowledge about it as us.

But you can't denie that lots of Poles were happy to get rid of their Jewish neighbours and them all knew what happens to them. My grandma's borthers were both murdered by Poles in the Holocaust when they returned to their home that was occupied by Poles.
A German citizen wrote a diary that proves that he (an avarage German) knew everything of where the Jews are taken to and what is being done to them. So I bet everyone knew that, still they snitched about Jews and they murdered Jews with their barehands.
There were few good people, but most of the nation didn't give a damn and maybe even was happy.

But you cannot denied that many Jews fight on a nazi side and many jewish owned company help nazi warmachine. Every getto have his own jewish polce that help german. There were a jew capo.
And so what? Is that making the jews responsible for Holocaust. Every nation have some amount of low scum. But some Jews start to critcise only Poland. In this country Nazi will kill you and your family if they found that you hide a Jew. Go to Yad Vashem (I hope i wrote this correct) and check how many Poles saves jewish lifes in WWII. About them your nation start to forget...

Yes we will make a big deal with "Polish concentration camps", because there is one reason to do that. THERE WAS NO SUCH THING IN POLISH HISTORY

[olowy]

Here we have an easy answer. You should be better than them. Because you are a occupier, their ressistance. You have all of that expensive modern stuff that should be use to avoid civilian casualties. Instead your governmant accept assasination policy, that is very hardly to call civilized. When terrorist kill some civilians is a obvious thing, they are evil they do such things. When Israel destroy a hundreds civilian houses its for me a suprise how a modern governmant can use such a barabaricto totalitarian method. Im against killing a civilians by both sides, but pls remember that most of dead civilians are on palestinian side of the wall and this is responsibility as a occupier to avoid such things. And one last thing. We cannot said that Israel use a proportional force in this conflict :(

I guess here is we diverge. 1. You say that an assasination policy is not civilized. I disagree. For example, if I have a choice between killing a terrorist leader by 1) shoting it with a missile from an apache that might collaterally kill some civilians or using a sniper vs sending in a large force that would results in many deaths including Israeli soliders and plestinian civilians, why is the first option not civilized.

What type of house demolitions are you referring to (those destroyed for not having proper permits, those destroyed in military operations for example used to hide terrorists or tunnels, or those belonging to families of terrorist bombers)?

As far as Israel use of force being proportional, there isn't a country that is perfect 100% of the time, but for every example you throw of unproportional I can show one that is.

Also "occupiers" and "resistors" is where we diverge as well. Israel might be ocuuping territory but it is Egyptian and Jordian terriroty. Some thought from another web site:

[quote] In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of the hotly contested region of Kashmir.

Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan's action. The Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state.

It is also important to distinguish the acquisition of territory in a war of conquest as opposed to a war of self-defense. A nation that attacks another and then retains the territory it conquers is an occupier. One that gains territory in the course of defending itself is not in the same category. And this is the situation with Israel, which specifically told King Hussein that if Jordan stayed out of the 1967 war, Israel would not fight against him. Hussein ignored the warning and attacked Israel. While fending off the assault and driving out the invading Jordanian troops, Israel came to control the West Bank.


I mean how how come there was never a push to create a palestinian land when the area was controlled by their arab "brothers?" Why was the Fatah created in 1950 and the PLO founded in 1964? Why do palestinian symbols, books, maps, etc (whether PA, HAMAS, Fatah) all show Israel as Palestinian territory? Do you really bvelieve that even if Israel pulled completly back to pre-1967 borders that everyone would be happy and the palestinians would leave Israel alone?

[olowy]

Here we have an easy answer. You should be better than them. Because you are a occupier, their ressistance. You have all of that expensive modern stuff that should be use to avoid civilian casualties. Instead your governmant accept assasination policy, that is very hardly to call civilized. When terrorist kill some civilians is a obvious thing, they are evil they do such things. When Israel destroy a hundreds civilian houses its for me a suprise how a modern governmant can use such a barabaricto totalitarian method. Im against killing a civilians by both sides, but pls remember that most of dead civilians are on palestinian side of the wall and this is responsibility as a occupier to avoid such things. And one last thing. We cannot said that Israel use a proportional force in this conflict :(

I guess here is we diverge. 1. You say that an assasination policy is not civilized. I disagree. For example, if I have a choice between killing a terrorist leader by 1) shoting it with a missile from an apache that might collaterally kill some civilians or using a sniper vs sending in a large force that would results in many deaths including Israeli soliders and palestinian civilians, why is the first option not civilized. Plus there is nothing against the laws of war in targeting terrorists with assasination methods.

What type of house demolitions are you referring to (those destroyed for not having proper permits, those destroyed in military operations for example used to hide terrorists or tunnels, or those belonging to families of terrorist bombers)?

As far as Israel use of force being proportional, there isn't a country that is perfect 100% of the time, but for every example you throw of unproportional I can show one that is.

Also "occupiers" and "resistors" is where we diverge as well. Israel might be ocuuping territory but it is Egyptian and Jordian terriroty. Some thought from another web site:


In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of the hotly contested region of Kashmir.

Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan's action. The Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state.

It is also important to distinguish the acquisition of territory in a war of conquest as opposed to a war of self-defense. A nation that attacks another and then retains the territory it conquers is an occupier. One that gains territory in the course of defending itself is not in the same category. And this is the situation with Israel, which specifically told King Hussein that if Jordan stayed out of the 1967 war, Israel would not fight against him. Hussein ignored the warning and attacked Israel. While fending off the assault and driving out the invading Jordanian troops, Israel came to control the West Bank.


I mean how how come there was never a push to create a palestinian land when the area was controlled by their arab "brothers?" Why was the Fatah created in 1950 and the PLO founded in 1964? Why do palestinian symbols, books, maps, etc (whether PA, HAMAS, Fatah) all show Israel as Palestinian territory? Do you really bvelieve that even if Israel pulled completly back to pre-1967 borders that everyone would be happy and the palestinians would leave Israel alone?[/quote]

[olowy]

You are making this Polish concentration camps such a big deal. Everybody here learns WW2 history, we learn it for a year, people here know that the camps were built by the Nazis and not by the Poles. Every Holocaust memorial day all you can watch on TV are documantries about the holocaust, I don't think any other nation has so much knowledge about it as us.

But you can't denie that lots of Poles were happy to get rid of their Jewish neighbours and them all knew what happens to them. My grandma's borthers were both murdered by Poles in the Holocaust when they returned to their home that was occupied by Poles.
A German citizen wrote a diary that proves that he (an avarage German) knew everything of where the Jews are taken to and what is being done to them. So I bet everyone knew that, still they snitched about Jews and they murdered Jews with their barehands.
There were few good people, but most of the nation didn't give a damn and maybe even was happy.

But you cannot denied that many Jews fight on a nazi side and many jewish owned company help nazi warmachine. Every getto have his own jewish polce that help german. There were a jew capo.
And so what? Is that making the jews responsible for Holocaust. Every nation have some amount of low scum. But some Jews start to critcise only Poland. In this country Nazi will kill you and your family if they found that you hide a Jew. Go to Yad Vashem (I hope i wrote this correct) and check how many Poles saves jewish lifes in WWII. About them your nation start to forget...

Yes we will make a big deal with "Polish concentration camps", because there is one reason to do that. THERE WAS NO SUCH THING IN POLISH HISTORY

Although there were capos, I think to say the Jews fought for the Nazi's side, even as a kapo, is a stretch. For example, although Jewish Kapos acted as enforcers in the ghettos and might have been treated better, it is not like they got to hang out with the NAzis on their free time or set free, after all they were still Jewish. They ended up deported as well. Also, Also, I am not sure if all Kapos were were Jewish. One definition of Kapo:


An Instrument of the Regime.

(From Ital. Capo, "chief, " "boss") term used in the Nazi concentration camps for an inmate appointed by the SS men in charge to head a Kommando (work gang) made up of other prisoners. The term "Kapo" is sometimes also used for any prisoner who was given an assignment and collaborated with the Nazis, and, beyond that, for any Nazi collaborator. In the German - occupied countries and in the camps, however, only the "bosses" of prisoner work gangs were referred to as "Kapos."
Generally, the Kapo was not a skilled worker, and his job was to escort the prisoners to their place of work and ensure that they performed their tasks properly and met the quotas. But work as such was not the major objective in the concentration camps; the real purpose was to break the prisoners in mind and spirit. The Kapo, therefore, became the instrument by which a regime of humiliation and sheer physical cruelty was imposed upon the prison population. At the workplaces, the work gangs were split up into smaller groups, each headed by a Vorarbeiter (foreman) responsible to the Kapo.

In 1942 there was a slight improvement in the regime prevailing in the camps, because the Germans became interested in exploiting the prisoners' productive capacity, which meant that they had to treat them better. In many instances, the Kapos -- especially those who were political prisoners in the camps -- pretended to be strict with the prisoners, when in fact they tried to handle them as moderately as possible. At all times a deep gulf divided the rank - and - file prisoner from the Kapo and other supervisors, affecting the human relationship between them and the conditions under which they lived. The Kapos' clothing was relatively warm, they had enough to eat, and they enjoyed their own reserved section in the prison barrack (the "block"), whereas such amenities were privileges unthinkable for the regular prisoners. In many instances Kapos mistreated prisoners in a criminal fashion and were put on trial after the war.

Another defiunition:

Kapo. Definition: 1. individuals who have been recruited by an enemy to police their own people; "Kameradenpolizei."

[Holycrusader]

Although there were capos, I think to say the Jews fought for the Nazi's side, even as a kapo, is a stretch. For example, although Jewish Kapos acted as enforcers in the ghettos and might have been treated better, it is not like they got to hang out with the NAzis on their free time or set free, after all they were still Jewish. They ended up deported as well. Also, Also, I am not sure if all Kapos were were Jewish.

No I mean wehrmacht.
Many Jews fight in Wehrmacht! I read even a diary of one who fight ...
There is even a book about that

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/images/righit.jpg

[Kaplanr]

No I mean wehrmacht.
Many Jews fight in Wehrmacht! I read even a diary of one who fight ...
There is even a book about that
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/images/righit.jpg

This is like Bill Clinton and "it". What is many? According to Rigg, (Hitler's Jewish Soldiers: The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military.) It was as many as 150,000. Lets be real, these were people who were mostly Jews because Nazi racial laws dictated they were. I'd wager that very few practiced or cared about being Jews. The equivalent would be to say that the Spanish Conversos (Jews converted before the Inquisition) are really Jews.

The other significant fact that Rigg concludes is that by 1944, loopholes in the German racial laws were eliminated and "Jews" who previously could have served, or were serving were deported and killed.

[alexz]

You are making this Polish concentration camps such a big deal. Everybody here learns WW2 history, we learn it for a year, people here know that the camps were built by the Nazis and not by the Poles. Every Holocaust memorial day all you can watch on TV are documantries about the holocaust, I don't think any other nation has so much knowledge about it as us.

But you can't denie that lots of Poles were happy to get rid of their Jewish neighbours and them all knew what happens to them. My grandma's borthers were both murdered by Poles in the Holocaust when they returned to their home that was occupied by Poles.
A German citizen wrote a diary that proves that he (an avarage German) knew everything of where the Jews are taken to and what is being done to them. So I bet everyone knew that, still they snitched about Jews and they murdered Jews with their barehands.
There were few good people, but most of the nation didn't give a damn and maybe even was happy.

But you cannot denied that many Jews fight on a nazi side and many jewish owned company help nazi warmachine. Every getto have his own jewish polce that help german. There were a jew capo.
And so what? Is that making the jews responsible for Holocaust. Every nation have some amount of low scum. But some Jews start to critcise only Poland. In this country Nazi will kill you and your family if they found that you hide a Jew. Go to Yad Vashem (I hope i wrote this correct) and check how many Poles saves jewish lifes in WWII. About them your nation start to forget...

Yes we will make a big deal with "Polish concentration camps", because there is one reason to do that. THERE WAS NO SUCH THING IN POLISH HISTORY

You are correct about almost everything.
There were no Jewish buisnesses that aided Nazis in occupied europe
because the property was confiscated from them. Perhaps you meant formerly owend. As far as Poles helping Jews, It is wide spread knowledge
of extremly brave acts and specialy Yanosh Korchak (my school was name after him and so does many street and public places in Israel).
However there many acts of polish collaboration with the Nazis in
rounding up the Jews. During the Uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto the
Polish resistance didn't want to supply any weaponsd (even symbolic)
or any assistance to the Jewish fighters. What worse was the pogrom in Kielce on July 4, 1946 after the Nazis weregone.

[Palmach]

No I mean wehrmacht.
Many Jews fight in Wehrmacht! I read even a diary of one who fight ...
There is even a book about that

Firstly, the auther counts germans who a part Jewish (1/4th or 1/8th) as Jews who are part german, which is kinda wild. Secondly, his findings to be widly inaccurate, 15,000 soldiers of MIXED descent is the MOST that could've served.

[Holycrusader]

You are correct about almost everything.
Thank you

There were no Jewish buisnesses that aided Nazis in occupied europe
because the property was confiscated from them. Perhaps you meant formerly owend.
I think we can found some business cooperation between US jewish business and Nazi germany. I hear about IBM

As far as Poles helping Jews, It is wide spread knowledge
of extremly brave acts and specialy Yanosh Korchak (my school was name after him and so does many street and public places in Israel).
:hug: :hug: :hug:

However there many acts of polish collaboration with the Nazis in
rounding up the Jews. During the Uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto the
Polish resistance didn't want to supply any weaponsd (even symbolic)
or any assistance to the Jewish fighters. What worse was the pogrom in Kielce on July 4, 1946 after the Nazis weregone.
As to the Uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto everything is more complicated. In polish resistance we have a comitee that was called Comitee to Helping Jews (żegota). They do not want to give a jew resistance a weapon because your uprising was a form of big suicide no chancess at all (actually I appreciate and respect that), but they help to run from ghetto and hide lot of jews running from uprising. And the most important polish resistance kill lot of polish bad guys that turn Jews to german authorities (szmalcowników).
As to the pogrom in Kielce I can only say "Sorry"

[Holycrusader]

No I mean wehrmacht.
Many Jews fight in Wehrmacht! I read even a diary of one who fight ...
There is even a book about that

Firstly, the auther counts germans who a part Jewish (1/4th or 1/8th) as Jews who are part german, which is kinda wild. Secondly, his findings to be widly inaccurate, 15,000 soldiers of MIXED descent is the MOST that could've served.
Part or whole who cares. I found this remarks about part Jewish (1/4th or 1/8th) quaite racial.
I just want only show you that is stupid to blame a nation for sins of few people. Yes some Poles kill some Jews, but some Jews serving in Wermaht kill some Poles too. Stupid isn't it???

We should blame nazi and racial ideology or governmants, not nations.