BHD Book vs. Movie

[Mal3]

I just noticed some favourable comments about the movie Black Hawk Down on another thread. I'm wondering what these who have both read the book and seen the movie think about it.

[OzMan]

In my mind, the movie was awesome, as far as all of the research and how much DoD cooperation they got. But now I'm reading the book, and when you compare the book to the movie, the movie blows. The characters were different, the names were different, and the perspective was different. I think Mark Bowden really did a good job of getting the perspective of both the Americans and the Somalis. There is never really a classic war emotion of, "I'm gonna kill 'em all." Sometimes the Americans will show undeniable superiority over the Somalis, but the emotion to the enemy is more professional and respectful (as far as the Americans to the Somalis). The movie was not accurate as how to the actual event went, but overall accurate to how it would have happened if a few variables changed. And I loved it how the Somalis pirated a version of the movie and responded with, "The Americans are portraying us as savages", even though they dragged our pilots through the streets.

And also there are a few glitches that I've caught in the movie, like the quick shots of Huey helos, and just some other systematic things.

In conclusion, both were great, but when compared, the book conquers all.

[Smoothie104]

Most Books are better than the movie version. It's hard to fit several hundred pages of detail and events into 1:45

[Mal3]

What dissappointed me about the movie was the "Hollywoodization." IT had great bits, but then they added stuff that seemed to be put in to keep the people whoe were going to the movies to see Rambo IV happy. (Deltas sneaking in for a knife kill, combat zone coffemaking... was that Starbucks or Mog?)

I really liked the way the Delta guys were protrayed. Reading the book gave me much respect for the Delta operators (problem is that Bowden seemingly only could interview one, but it seemed to come out OK) and I imagine they looked, behaved and "fought" realistically.

I wish they had had the guts to film the book, instead of basing it on the book. I guy I know studied military history at Oxford and got to meet Sir Michael Rose (correct me if I'm wrong), who was commander of the SAS during the Falklands among other things, and Sir Michael stated that Black Hawk Down was one of the most important books about modern warfare.

I think more people should read the book, it would give people an idea about what they're asking for when they want the military to go out on humintarian missions. Not that I'm a "peace-at-all-cost" type person, I'm actually for the actions taken against the regime of Saddam Hussein.

If the film would have mimiced the book, this might have become one of the great war movies. It was a fine movie, but flawed in my mind. I still think the best modern war film is Bravo Two Zero (arguably flawed also) but it just hasn't got the broad appeal that a faithful reproduction of the BHD movie could have had.

Of course, The Three Kings is an all too forgotten film...

[Mal3]

Most Books are better than the movie version. It's hard to fit several hundred pages of detail and events into 1:45

I'd actually argue that Fellowship of the Ring was a better movie than a book, but I think I'd better watch my back if I did :)

Still, since they added scenes to the movie the book didn't have, I find fault with your argument concerning BHD, even if I'd agree regarding most book-movie conversions.

[Royal]

Mal3 Yes Mike Rose was CO 22 SAS for Op Corporate (& Op Nimrod the Iranian Embassy seige in Princes Gate).

As for B20 - great film/book????

Historical/factual bollocks, need I say more?

[Mal3]

I've read both Andy McNab's autobiography Immediate action and Bravo Two Zero. Can't say I have checked all the criticism levelled at B20, but I will given the chance. I think my friend taped a Discovery special on it, have to make inquiries.

How factual B20 is I do not know to any certainty, but I think the portrayal seemded fairly realistic in the movie (excl. the Mi-8 Hind helos instead of Chinooks). Of course, I haven't been on many SAS ops so that is a bit of a wild guess. Maybe I'm being shown what I want to see...

Since you mention Princess Gate, have you seen the TV show that was released on video that had a re-enactment of Princess Gate? I loved the show and I'm wondering a bit how accurate they get it on the show.

[yellowking]

They changed Stebbins to Grimes because the real Stebbins, despite a fairly impressive record in the fight, is currently serving a 30 year term after being court martialed in 2000 for raping his (under 12) daughter.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

[Royal]

Mi8's are Hip's (sorry I'm nit-picking), Hind's are Mi24's...

There's plenty of open source stuff exploding the bollocks written by 'Andy McNabb', 'Cameron Spence' and 'Chris Ryan' - check it out...

Why did they exagerate - I guess you've got to sell books and hype sells books so blame the publishers, though I'd have thought 'Ryan's' E&E was a good enough story in itself.

[Mal3]

Mi8's are Hip's (sorry I'm nit-picking), Hind's are Mi24's...

There's plenty of open source stuff exploding the bollocks written by 'Andy McNabb', 'Cameron Spence' and 'Chris Ryan' - check it out...

Why did they exagerate - I guess you've got to sell books and hype sells books so blame the publishers, though I'd have thought 'Ryan's' E&E was a good enough story in itself.

Sheesh, I'm slipping, I know an Mi-8 is a Hip not a Hind. Seems I fall into the trap of every Russian helo being a Hind if I'm not careful!

Could you point me to any sources on the matter of debunking any B20 myths? I'd be interested in knowing the truth.

[Royal]

Try 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Ratcliffe (Ratcliffe was RSM of 22 on Op Granby) - you should find it on Amazon or something similar.

That was what broke the myth to the puclic in the UK. Not a very popular guy, but then you don't get made RSM on a popularity poll. From what I know about it, he tells it as it was...

[Mal3]

RSM being Regimental Sergeant Major? I will keep that in mind, try to get it and fit it in between exam studying this summer! Thanks a bunch.

[Royal]

Yeah, RSM being Regimental Sergeant Major :lol:

[Vance]

(Deltas sneaking in for a knife kill, combat zone coffemaking... was that Starbucks or Mog?)

Gold Coast Blend ;)

[Duke]

Like most movies based on books, the movie failed to portray or symbolize the details found both in the book and in reality. Specifically, the movie failed to frame the events that led to the attempted snatch. Details such as the massacre of the Pakastani security forces. That they were literally skinned alive. And that Task Force Ranger was the attempt to seek justice on those who initiated the massacre. Also, the movie should have shown how the Clinton/Aspin administration's politically charged refusal to employ armor and how armor was used by the Marines to placate the Somalis. Without such details the movie created the image that the US went to Somalia for conquest. But hey, this is Hollywood.

[Cpl Stumps]

While I do agree that no movie can do justice to a book unless you plan on spending 10 hours or more watching it (Steven King's STAND comes to mind). I do think that the movie achieved something that most military movies don't. It showed the bond between soldiers and it made some people go and read the book if only to know more. I feel that it showed some of the most important aspects of the fight. I honestly felt that they would not show the death of Cpl Smith, that they would somehow gloss over it. That they showed the desperate attempt to save his life by the medics was in my mind very important. I like others wished they had pointed out that had there been armor to extract Cpl Smith he might have lived, but that wasn't the case. I think civilians need to be reminded of the sacrifice those that serve make. I spent two hours explaining to my wife why those Rangers, Delta, PJs and SEALS stayed in that hell so that they could recover their fallen friends. I also explained in those two hours the selflessness of Shugart and Gordon. So while the book doesn't match the movie it does cause more interest and is somewhat of an education. Also I could have sworn that person Grimsy is based off of did make coffee in the middle of the fight.

Just my opinion

Cpl Stumps

[96B]

With regards to Andy McNabb and those guys who wrote the SAS books, what specifically did they exaggerate or do to cause criticizing? I never did get a chance to read the books. While on the topic, what is the best SAS book I can get out there?

[Mal3]

Also I could have sworn that person Grimsy is based off of did make coffee in the middle of the fight.

So could I, but I rifled through the book without finding it after seeing the movie. Of course, I could have missed it. If so, my apologies to all!

[Fargin]

The book = teh win

I read it before i saw the movie, so i guess the movie was bound to fail.

[Duke]

Blackhawk Down was originally an expose done by Bowen at his Philly newspaper. He released his story everyday over a span of two weeks. Later, he released a book with more details. I've read the newspaper edition, book and eventually saw the movie. The story about the guy making coffee is in the Phillynews.com story, but I dont remember it in the book.

[jokiemastah]

I watched the movie then proceeded to read the book, and IMO the book was a lot better, just a lot more information in the book, still the movie was awe
some. On another note "LOTR the movie was better than the book" my butt!!!!!!!!!!!!! the movie was good not but not nearly the scope of the book

[Royal]

With regards to Andy McNabb and those guys who wrote the SAS books, what specifically did they exaggerate or do to cause criticizing? I never did get a chance to read the books. While on the topic, what is the best SAS book I can get out there?

They hugely exagerated the 'body count' of their patrols, as well as the number and type of firefights they were involved in. The 'Yellow Cab' incident for example is total fiction.

They also played down most of their own command/tactical screw ups. Ratcliffe's book is the only one I've bothered to read that gets close.

That said, most of the stuff written on the SBS is equal crap. The public has an insaitable appetite for this stuff, so the publishers keep churning it out...

[RoBBo]

if any of you are looking for a good read u should try SAS: Phantoms of war. Good account of the aussie SASR history, well worth a read.

[OzMan]

Also, the Mammoth book of Special Forces (one of the Mammoth Books I forget the exact title!) has A LOT of stories and info about the SAS. Almost half of the book is SAS war stories from WWII to the present. The stories don't get too in-depth like BHD, but I read about a lot of exploits that I'd never heard of before in that book.

And what I hated about the movie BHD was all of the switches they made with character placement. I was just reading in the book today and found out that Nelson (the deaf 60 gunner) actually roped in with the CSAR team after the first Blackhawk went down, not with Chalk 4. And the capturing scene in the movie where the three helos stop Mr. Atto's vehicle actually happene around September 21st, not on October 2, like the movie says. Or how Chalk 4 ended up getting a ride with the convoy to the crash site, not running there. And a bunch of other things like that make me want to throw my DVD of the movie away because the storyline sucks so bad.

[boattail]

The book Black Hawk Down wasnt 100% accurate either...but he did the best job he could with the information that was provided.

[Mal3]

Try 'Eye of the storm' by Peter Ratcliffe (Ratcliffe was RSM of 22 on Op Granby) - you should find it on Amazon or something similar.

That was what broke the myth to the puclic in the UK. Not a very popular guy, but then you don't get made RSM on a popularity poll. From what I know about it, he tells it as it was...

Royal, know anything about the book "The Real Bravo Two Zero"? A friend lent it to me, I might read it soon.

[Royal]

Mal3, I've not read it but here's what I know...

Asher (the author) was a para in the 60's and 70's left and went to university and joined 23 SAS (one of the reserve regiments). He then joined the RUC before leaving and writing a mediocre autobiography called 'Shoot to kill'.

What his credentials are as far as Iraq are, I don't know. As guess as an ex-cop he can investigate...

[Mal3]

Thanks, looks like I'll end up spending summer trying to become an armchair, second guessing B20 expert :roll: