arab news faces reality

[warchild1/27scout]

if you want an insider look at what the arab street is reading check out the leading english arab newspaper.there is still an arab slant to the war but they are having trouble explaining the celebrating in the streets in baghdad.heres the site.http://www.arabnews.com/

[budanski]

Palestinians stunned by collapse of Saddam's regime

There was shock and disbelief in the West Bank and Gaza Strip Wednesday as Palestinians gathered around TV sets to watch US Marines and Iraqi residents knock down a giant statute of Saddam Hussein in Tahrir Square in central Baghdad.

"I'm stunned and appalled. I can't understand what is happening," said Rustum Abu Ghazalah, a 30-year-old shopkeeper in the center of Ramallah.

He and grim-faced fellow shopkeepers zapped from one Arab TV station to another with the hope of discovering that what they were hearing and watching was nothing more than a US-produced Hollywood film.

"This can't be true," grumbled Abu Ghazaleh. "Where are the suicide bombers? Where are the Fedayeen of Saddam? Where are the heroic Republican Guards?"

Some Palestinian officials, however, expressed relief that the war was in its final stages now that Saddam's regime has collapsed. They said they hoped that now the US and the rest of the world would pay more attention to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"We hope that Washington will now have time to solve our problems here," one official told The Jerusalem Post. "Let's hope that the US will now implement the road map plan for peace in the Middle East and force Israel to stop its aggression on our people."

Since the beginning of the war, many Palestinians have been staging daily demonstrations in support of Saddam. The protests have often turned into anti-American and anti-British rallies where Palestinians burned effigies of US President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

At least two Palestinian groups, Fatah and Islamic Jihad, announced that they had dispatched suicide bombers to Iraq to join in the fight against the US and British troops. Hundreds of Palestinian volunteers from Lebanon, Syria and the West Bank and Gaza Strip are reported to have arrived in Iraq to participate in the fighting.

"This is a sad day for all the Arabs and Muslims, particularly the Palestinians," said Nael al-Am, a 36-year-old grocery owner in Ramallah. He is one of the few merchants who still keep a large-size poster of the deposed Iraqi president. Friends describe him as a staunch supporter of Saddam.

"I invested a lot of money in buying a satellite dish and a new TV set because I wanted to watch the day the battle for Baghdad begins," explained the bearded shopkeeper. "I was sure that this was going to be one of the great battles of the century, where an Arab army would inflict heavy losses on the invading crusaders. I feel as if a dagger has been stuck in my heart when I see American soldiers strolling in the heart of Baghdad."

Salim Jaber, a taxi driver from the nearby town of Beitunia, said he decided to call it a day when he heard on radio the news from Baghdad. "I just couldn't continue driving," he said. "It was very difficult for me and the passengers. I've never seen such solemn faces. It was as if they had lost dear ones."

Many Palestinians said Saddam was the only Arab leader who sided with them both morally and financially in their confrontation with Israel. "He gave us a sense of pride because he was the only Arab leader who stood up against Israel and the US," said Abdel Majiud al-Bahs, a 46-year-old engineer. "Now that Saddam is gone, the Palestinians feel like orphans. We have lost an important ally. He was even more popular than Yasser Arafat."

Since the beginning of the intifada more than two years ago, Saddam has paid about 30 million dollars to families of Palestinian victims of the violence, including suicide bombers who blew themselves up in Israel. The money was channeled through the pro-Iraqi Arab Liberation Front, a tiny Palestinian faction operating in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The last time Saddam's representative handed out checks to Palestinians was last week.

Some Palestinians chose to vent their anger on the Arab media, especially al-Jazeera, Abu Dhabi and al-Arabiya TV stations, for broadcasting lies about the developments on the battlefield. "For the past three weeks these stations gave us the impression that Iraq had the upper hand in the fighting against the US and British forces," complained Yahya al-Natsheh, the owner of a boutique in al-Bireh, the twin city of Ramallah.

"Where is the liar [Iraqi information minister Mohammed] Sahhaf," he asked rhetorically. "He sounded and looked so confidant when he told us that the Iraqis were slaughtering the crusaders and mercenaries at the gates of Baghdad. Everyone believed that the Iraqis were cleverly luring the Americans and British into Baghdad, which was supposed into a huge graveyard for the crusaders."

Older Palestinians said the events in Iraq are reminiscent of the Six Day War, when Arab radio stations and leaders told their audiences that Israel was on the verge of defeat. They said the TV appearances of the Iraqi information minister, who remained defiant till the last minute, insisting that everything was under control and that the enemy had been defeated.

"Sahhaf reminded me of [Egyptian radio propagandist] Ahmed Said, who during the 1967 war, told us that the Israeli warplanes were falling like flies," said Abed al-Zamel, a 70-year-old retired schoolteacher from Silwad village near Ramallah. "Once again the Arabs have fallen victim to the lies of their leaders and media. We never learn from our mistakes. When the war erupted, I warned my sons not to watch Arab TV stations so they would not be disappointed and depressed when the truth eventually comes out."


Too bad Abdullah better luck next time

[hood]

Once again the Arabs have fallen victim to the lies of their leaders and media.

Well, some governments who have a tight grip on their media like Saddam used to, just aren't showing anything. According to the BBC, television in Iran, Syria, and Jordan aren't showing anything at all. No jubilant crowds, no tearing down of statues, nothing. When it's so blatantly apparent that the government is feeding you lies which you can see because all of the outside satellite networks are showing it all, you start to wonder if any non-Iraqi arabs will actually start asking questions. Probably not. The very unforunate trend for Arabs in that part of the world, is that they can't stand change. They'll fight tooth and nail against human progress and in some cases, would prefer to stay locked in the 15th century. It's a sad sight. The U.S.'s hope, is that if we show enough Arabs what like can be like under democracy, maybe more will take notice.

[Royal]

Lets hope if it is over there's a real effort to sort out the palestine problem (got to be one of the few that's been going on longer than Ireland or Kosovo...) we could all do with a few more friends in the middle east.

Why do I have a funny feeling that Dubya ain't so keen to get his boots dirty on that one?

[hood]

Well, Dubya said he's going to get the new peace roadmap out there when Iraq's done, but I don't see peace in that area within this first 4 year term no matter what he proposes because of the nature of the problem. What's great about taking out Iraq, is that the Palestinians are now faced with the reality that nobody will support their games anymore. They either have to get serious about doing whatever it takes to secure peace, or be killed off several at a time like they are now. They're not going to win against Israel militarily no matter how many bombers they send. Eventually Israel will have built their giant wall around the Palestinians, and they'll be stuck inside their own sections, unable to find work and unable to survive. Maybe then they'll understand.

[Duke]

Hood, I'm suprised at your generalization that Palestinians as a whole are an obstacle to the peace process. When in college I was a member of the model UN and meet numerous Palestinians and Isrealis. Believe me, not all Palestinians are terrorists and they yearn for a simple lasting peace. Furthermore, many Palestinians, such as Hanan Ashrawi, are moderates who are rapid users of nonviolent methods.

[hood]

Not all Americans wanted the war in Iraq, but it's still the policy of the US that we did it. Same goes for the Palestinians and Israelis. What matters is what course of action the established authority was behind. Arafat would speak in English that he wanted peace, and then turn around and say death to all Israelis in Arabic 10 minutes later. When 2-3 suicide bombers are caught and stopped every single day at the border crossings, just because we don't hear about new bombings, doesn't mean they're not trying.

Violence is, and has been the method of the Palestinian Authority for a very long time. It makes no difference what the specifics or reasons behind it are. What matters is their actions. When they go up against the Israeli military, they will fail. It's why they avoid it as often as possible and go after soft targets instead.

We're at a juncture where the Palestinians are about to have a huge chunk of their monetary support cut off (Iraq). They're bringing in a new prime minister who has some new views on the situation. Now we get to see if the people are willing to accept change, and therefore possible peace, or if they're going to be steadfast against change and embrace endless violence, as it has been for so many years. The prime minister is only one man. If the people aren't behind him, and aren't willing to rise up behind their new leader and accept change, Arafat will continue to throw his weight around to stop the peace process.

[EliteWolf]

Hood, I'm suprised at your generalization that Palestinians as a whole are an obstacle to the peace process. When in college I was a member of the model UN and meet numerous Palestinians and Isrealis. Believe me, not all Palestinians are terrorists and they yearn for a simple lasting peace. Furthermore, many Palestinians, such as Hanan Ashrawi, are moderates who are rapid users of nonviolent methods.

well until he can convince all the terrorist groups like hamas and stuff to use nonviolent means of getting their message heard, i still say we nuke the ****ing sandies for targeting israeli women and children. i mean, targeting the israeli men is one thing, but the goddamn children, thats crossing the line. i know not every arab is behind osama and his henchmen or yasir arafatso but cmon! this is really getting out of hand.

[hood]

If you look at it objectively, and purely from a military stand point, they're just attacking the enemy where they're the weakest. It's a valid target for them. The difference is that if the Israeli command tells all of their soldiers to pull out, and to not fire a shot, it will happen. Can Arafat say the same thing with the mess he's made? He's proven that either he can't, or that he has no desire to.

[Royal]

Gotta agree with Duke
Hood, I'm suprised at your generalization that Palestinians as a whole are an obstacle to the peace process. When in college I was a member of the model UN and meet numerous Palestinians and Isrealis. Believe me, not all Palestinians are terrorists and they yearn for a simple lasting peace. Furthermore, many Palestinians, such as Hanan Ashrawi, are moderates who are rapid users of nonviolent methods.

Like most arguments there ain't no black and white - yeah the Palestinains have killed women & kids - so have the Isrealis (for that matter so have we and so have you Yanks - in pretty much every conflict I can think of [apart from the Falklands - there were civvy casulties in Stanley, but I don't think any women or kids - correct me if I'm wrong]).

Military power is all very well, but hearts and minds are what wins wars - something US SF did very well in the early days in Vietnam - brutalise people without trying to improve their situation and the cycle of violence goes on...

[hood]

Agreed. The hardest part, will be for the new prime minister to convince his people, and the militant groups, that non-violence across the board is in their best interest. With luck, Iraq will be enough evidence for them. Maybe the US Army should go rolling through the streets of the West Bank. :)

[warchild1/27scout]

middle east arabs understand one thing,and that is power.if you read in the arab times they say now that the u.s. crushed saddam no one else better step out of line or they will be next. :bash:

[Duke]

I understand youre in high school wolf, so ill explain the Middle East problem in painstaking detail.
During WWI the British brought down the "Sick Man of Europe" meaning the Ottoman Empire. This empire was vast since it held most of the middle east. It was also shaky--economically and socially vulnerable, hence the name. Most people under the Turks wanted their own country. The British carved out nations literally from this region, not respective of cultural, ethnic or religious demographics. That is why Iraq has Kurds in the north, Arab Sunnis and ****tes in the south and west. At one point a British general drew up Iraq without Basra, to purposely cut them off from the sea. This was later changed.
The most important ramifications we today feel from WWI are the Balfour Declaration and the Scykes Picot Agreement. The SP agreement was between the Brits and the French to divide the middle east and colonize the region. The Balfour Declaration was the provision that the British government will establish a Jewish State. Now both of these agreements were held in secret. During and after WWI the Arabs were promised not just self rule but freedom from european influences. So they were strung along.
The Balfour Declaration was the creation of numerous european journalists, poltical thinkers and powerbrokers in London. Before and after WWI many Jews believe they should return to Palestine to establish their own country. This idea was called Zionism. The Arabs were entirely against this idea.
Now fast forward after the atrocities of WWII. Zionism took such a strong hold in the minds of those in charge of the post WWII reconstruction, that the powers that be asked the UN to create a Jewish state among the Arab lands. Several proposals were offered but all were opposed by the Arabs. The gist of their arguement was what will happen to the Arabs within the borders of this new state. Also, what rights will muslims have in this new country. Remember for centuries Jews and Arabs lived in relative harmony. Finally, the Jewish State was established with objections from Arab countries.
Of course we know of the series of wars where the Israelis kicked the Arabs asses and even took the entire Sinai Pennisula from Egypt(it was given back), the Golan from Syria, Jerusalem, and the West Bank from Jordan.
The middle east peace problem centers on the people and the lands of those Arabs lost from about 1910 to today and the security and existence of Israel. For several decades radical groups such as the Iranian Pasdaran, Hamas, and Jihad Islamiah have highjacked the political machinery of the Palestinian problem by using violence. conversely, the Israelis are not clean either. That's the problem the cyclic violence, such as Sharon goes to the Temple Mount, Intafada, sucide bombers, bulldozing houses, sucide bombers, crackdowns. The Palestinains and Israelis do have moderates trying to meet halfway. For example this last election in Israel nearly elected a moderate over Sharon. The trick to solving this problem is establishing a Palestinian State that doesnt threaten Israel while holding off the violence on both sides...BOTH SIDES. I dont want to hear antisemitism my girlfriend is one.

[Royal]

Thank you Duke...

Freely admit that we Brits were (with the French) the architects of most of the problems in the middle east. I have huge respect for Churchill, but he's got alot to answer for!

But it goes back alot further than that - the Ottomans and Christians had effectivly exiled the bulk of the Jewish nation to Europe centuries before that.

[Duke]

thats a very funny comment. In college I had a class called The Middle East from 1900. Maybe I should of took both classes

[Mal3]

Thank you Duke...

Freely admit that we Brits were (with the French) the architects of most of the problems in the middle east. I have huge respect for Churchill, but he's got alot to answer for!

But it goes back alot further than that - the Ottomans and Christians had effectivly exiled the bulk of the Jewish nation to Europe centuries before that.

Of course before that much of Europe had kicked out their Jews... Pretty difficult to try and go back to find solutions, not that I'm trying to put words in your mouth.

[JiJoMacLE45]

When you talk about Israel and Palestine, you are talking about more then just people wanting a country. The Palestinian's were offered land by Israel to form their own seperate state, a substantial amount I might add, a few years back and they turned it down because they do not want part of Israel, they want the whole thing. The entire middle east is made up of essentially tribes who have been waring with each other for hundreds of years. Muslims and Christians and Jews and Sunnis and Shiites and Arabs and Kurds and fundamentalists and moderates and militants, the list goes on. Borders do not matter in these situations. It is not I am a Jordanian and you are Syrian and those are where my loyalties lie, it is I am an Arab and you are an Arab and our loyalty belongs to each other. Even if the unlikely situation where the Israelis were to pull out of occupied zones and the Palestinians would stop blowing themselves up all over the place, the chain of violence would hardly end. Arabs would still want the Israelis out, maybe not the Palestinians but the Syrians or the Egyptians or the Jordanians or the Iranains. President Clinton, in one of the few things he tried to do right, was able to negotiate some semblance of peace in the region. How long did it last? The bullets and bombs were back before anyone realized they had been gone. The middle east has never been successful at peace. I find it pretty ironic that the unnamed Palestinian offical who probably has chastised us for taking down Saddam wants us to come in and clean up the mess in his region. While I certainly do not believe the Israelis hands are clean, how can you fault them for responding to the threats they face. If it had been Canadians or Mexicans on board those planes on September 11th, we would have been over the border in a heartbeat and locking the border down(which is not a bad idea anyway). A government would have been committing international suicide had it told the US to stay out of Afghanistan in its hunt for Al-Qaeda. Yet we tell the Israelis to restrain themselves when they proactively hunt down terrorists and murderers who kill innocent people on a daily basis in the streets and markets of Israel. Would we heed such advice from other nations if terrorists were blowing themselves up in shopping malls in Philadelphia, Los Angeles, or Chicago. I do not think so. The answer lies deeper then just a seperate Palestine. It is in a state mind and a belief that will not change because the Palestinians have somewhere to call home. That is something that we can not change by signing a treaty or enforcing embargos or providing military intervention.

[StarvingStudent47]

Back to Iraq...not all Arab news is being so pessimistic about stuff. Al-Jazeera reported the following today:


The scenes in the Iraqi capital were chaotic. Jubilant Iraqis welcomed advancing US forces in Baghdad while rampaging looters attacked symbols of Saddam Hussein’s power.

Residents threw flowers at the armoured column as it swept past, just three kilometres east of the central Jumhuriyya Bridge over the Tigris river. Joy at the apparent removal of Saddam Hussein was tangible, with one man beating a canvas portrait of him with his slipper.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs' Monument, just three km (two miles) east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the river Tigris.

"No more Saddam Hussein," chanted one group, waving to troops as they passed. "We love you, we love you." One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to hand over a heavy belt of ammunition. An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and grinned. Crowds of Shia men beat their chests in the streets.

This is from http://english.aljazeera.net/

[Knave]

Like most arguments there ain't no black and white - yeah the Palestinains have killed women & kids - so have the Isrealis (for that matter so have we and so have you Yanks - in pretty much every conflict I can think of [apart from the Falklands - there were civvy casulties in Stanley, but I don't think any women or kids - correct me if I'm wrong]).


The difference is that, given that the Americans, British and Israelis all possess the necessary Intelligence communities, weapons and organization, they make a conscious effort NOT to kill women and children when and if at all possible. The prevention of deaths of innocent people is very much in the forefront of the American, British and Israeli military minds... why?

Because it looks really bad on CNN. And, in a democracy - especially one where images of war are flashed around the world in an instant - public opinion means a lot to how the military behaves. Mistakes aren't easily hidden, atrocities are near-impossible to sweep under the rug. Why? Because reporters are always on the lookout for that stuff. A sensational news story like the killing of innocent women and children by American soldiers sells the Sunday Edition and makes people tune into the News at 6.

The Palestinians, however, *deliberately* target women and children because they consider them legitimate targets. They want people to see kids going to school blown to bits, or ordinary people going home from work on the bus killed by a suicide bomber, because it has the effect of instiling fear into their 'enemy.' It may make their 'enemy' reconsider going to work tomorrow, or sending their child to school. In most cases, though, it only galvanizes their 'enemy' into taking a harder stance. And around and around we go.

However, the behavior of the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah is wholly inconsistant with historical - and quite successful - grass-roots "resistance" campaigns to rid your country of an occupier; Resistance groups in Europe during the Second World War would target German military targets - legitimate military targets - especially, if not exclusively. The parallel can be drawn between the two.

The question has to be asked if the Palestinian's aim is for freedom from what they consider oppression, or if their current violent campaign stems more from racial or ethnic hatred. The fact that the Israelis haven't wiped the Palestinians off the face of the earth is a testament to their patience. I think that none of us have any doubt that the Jews in Palestine would find their very survival very much in question if their situation were reversed with that of the Palestinians.