Illegal Immigration

[AFG]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/elec04.prez.bush.immigration/index.html


what do you guys think?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Seems to be a mechanisim to allow immigrants (and "illegals") to be here as long as they're contributing to society - i.e. have a job. Since most of them start out on the lower end of the scale, I can't see too many of us whining that they're taking our jobs. As it is, nobody wants to work at McDonalds anyhow.

I'm all for a policy that will contribute to the whole of our system. Got no beef with them as long as they're pulling their weight. But I wonder what other details are hidden in the program. It's obviously going to be beneficial to Bush, since it will make that voting bloc happy.

Odd how the groups that traditionally vote Democrat are constantly screwed by them, and they never seem to learn from it...

[Mo]

I can not even fathom why this is being considered. What does it mean to be a U.S. citizen then? Those people are in this country illegally i.e. they are criminals. Giving them a vote is pathetic and vote mongering for Bush. I have no problem with anyone coming to this country and abiding by our rules and laws, that is what makes a civilized society, and legally becoming a citizen. I take pride in that, this makes me want to puke and I bet our forefathers are spinning in their graves as well!!

[usa320]

See part of me says send em back, but the other part of me says if they were willing to risk their lives to get here, then the freedom we have here means alot.

As long as they have a job and contribute, and dont get into trouble, i dont forsee it being to big a problem. But once they start human smuggling and drug smuggling, then they can find somewhere else to live.

[Ratamacue]

If you want to read a bit of a satirical response to things like this, check out this page: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

My feeling is that many of these people, as usa said, risk their lives just to get freedom and opportunity in the US. Many of them can't even obtain a green card or something that allows them to establish residence in the US, which means that illegal immigration is their only choice. As the poem at the base of the Statue of Liberty says:


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

A bit hypocritical to reject the poor, huddled masses just because they're not here "legally."

[Flagg]

I think the reason for the plan being considered is two-fold:

1.) To gain share in the Hispanic voting community for the upcoming election.

2.) To deal with the completely unwinnable illegal-immigrant problem.

We're dealing with an illegal immigration problem down here in Australasia, including a couple of high profile events.

On one hand I hate to hear about the government offering to accept large numbers of refugees as it requires substantial resources(ie my tax dollars) to absorb them into society while at the same time bigger hurdles have been placed in front of immigrants able to make immediate contributions to society.

However, on the other hand, I cannot help but feel sympathy for many of those attempting to seek a better life for themselves and their family.

All I know is.....I am a law-abiding person......but if my family and I were not as fortunate as we have been and unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong country living in the abject poverty most illegal immigrants are attempting to escape from, I would do whatever it took to provide a better life for mine and I would not stop until I succeeded.

I suspect most people here would do the same for their families....looking at things from that perspective makes it a most difficult issue to address.

And we have a much easier job of it down here with natural barriers to entry(ocean), whereas the US has a very porous border with Mexico...which I suspect is like stopping a flood with a shotglass.

Add into the mix the possibility of terrorist infiltration and it makes for possibly the most important issue for the US to tackle.

[TriggerPuller]

If you want to read a bit of a satirical response to things like this, check out this page: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart


A bit hypocritical to reject the poor, huddled masses just because they're not here "legally."BS. Times have changed,9/11 saw to that. These people are"illegal" go through the right steps and you shall receive your work permit. If not and you are "illegal" and you come here you get nothing you have NO RIGHTS. Legal immigration I have no problem with but illegal aliens I do!!!!!
TP

[Flagg]

I can not even fathom why this is being considered. What does it mean to be a U.S. citizen then? Those people are in this country illegally i.e. they are criminals. Giving them a vote is pathetic and vote mongering for Bush. I have no problem with anyone coming to this country and abiding by our rules and laws, that is what makes a civilized society, and legally becoming a citizen. I take pride in that, this makes me want to puke and I bet our forefathers are spinning in their graves as well!!

I can sympathize with your perspective Mo, but how do you stop it?

Turning the US Southern Border into a 2000 mile long Berlin Wall while trying to maintain friction free international trade isn't a viable solution.

Poverty breeds desperation and motivation......multiply this by millions and you're faced with an impossible task.

[Whistler]

See part of me says send em back, but the other part of me says if they were willing to risk their lives to get here, then the freedom we have here means alot.

As long as they have a job and contribute, and dont get into trouble, i dont forsee it being to big a problem. But once they start human smuggling and drug smuggling, then they can find somewhere else to live.

I'm in the same camp as you, speaking as a Canadian though.

If somebody is willing to ride a boat full of holes packed like sardines, or ride in an aircraft wheel well, just so they can come here and have the same freedoms as me, I say give them all the help they need.

I don't have much tolorance for people who laze around on social assistance or commit crimes however, but that applies to immigrants and "native" Canadians alike.

[Turd Ferguson]

I agree full-heartedly with Mo and TriggerPuller.
If an immigrant is allowed to stay here, they shouldn't benefit from Social Security or any other gov't. assistance programs that thay haven't themselves put money in to.
And, I don't care about how many holes were in their rafts when they floated over, ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL.
If they showed any respect at all for the USA they would apply with the INS and speak at least some English.
For the truth about border happenings: http://www.americanpatrol.com

[FallenAngel]

I agree with Mo, TP, et. al.

My opinion is that these people are *ILLEGAL* immigrants for a reason! If they want to immigrate to this fine country to bask in our liberal and (nearly) universal freedoms- I am all for it and wish them the best of luck. However, when someone breaks the LAW and comes to this country illegaly they are no above said law because they are seeking a better life.

Not only are they a drain on resources, but they are bringing down the rest too. I agree that they should not be allowed to take advantage of Welfare and other government funded programs- which included public schools. Something like 80% of the students in the LA Unified School Disctrict could not pass a basic aptitude test to meet national "norms" of 12th graders in order to graduate. Why such a drastic number? Because it is found out that something like up to 60% of these kids can NOT read or even understand english! The vast majority of said kids are illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants. Since they are not citizens, many do not pay taxes so now it is MY taxes that go to pay for these children who can not speak basic english by the age of 18. Oh, and that "test", AFAIK was not implimented as the ACLU jumped on it, claiming that since such a high majority of Latino students failed horribly, the test was deemed discriminatory.

I got rear-ended about 6 months ago, nearly totalled my car, and guess who was driving? Some shave-headed mexican gang banger. He hit me and tried to take off. When the cops caught him about three blocks later (for once I can say the LAPD were there when you needed them- the nearest patrol unit was only a block away and had seen the accident.) you know what they said to them? Well, after he resisted arrest, thoroughly cussed out both officers through an interpreter (yep- he couldn't speak english either), he told them that although his parents were illegal immigrants, he had been born here in the states and (here's the kicker) he told the officers that as an "American Citizen" he had the "right" to drive his car whenever he wanted to. Without a liscense. Without insurance. Even without vehicle registration. Since then, I have learned that at his trial, the public defender (more and more of my tax dollars wasted on this scum) claimed that he shouldn't be held accountable because he was wasted on weed! :cantbeli:

I know I shouldn't judge an entire group of people based on "one bad apple" but take a drive through South Central (oh, excuse me, the PC term these days is "Southern Los Angeles".) and take a look at the low-income housing/baby-factories with the '03 Cadillac SUV (with 22" rims no doubt) parked out front.

Something needs to be done, but no one wants to be be the one to stand up, say to hell with the PC bull**** and take action.

[WARPIG]

I agree with Mo, TP, et. al.

My opinion is that these people are *ILLEGAL* immigrants for a reason! If they want to immigrate to this fine country to bask in our liberal and (nearly) universal freedoms- I am all for it and wish them the best of luck. However, when someone breaks the LAW and comes to this country illegaly they are no above said law because they are seeking a better life.

Not only are they a drain on resources, but they are bringing down the rest too. I agree that they should not be allowed to take advantage of Welfare and other government funded programs- which included public schools. Something like 80% of the students in the LA Unified School Disctrict could not pass a basic aptitude test to meet national "norms" of 12th graders in order to graduate. Why such a drastic number? Because it is found out that something like up to 60% of these kids can NOT read or even understand english! The vast majority of said kids are illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants. Since they are not citizens, many do not pay taxes so now it is MY taxes that go to pay for these children who can not speak basic english by the age of 18. Oh, and that "test", AFAIK was not implimented as the ACLU jumped on it, claiming that since such a high majority of Latino students failed horribly, the test was deemed discriminatory.

I got rear-ended about 6 months ago, nearly totalled my car, and guess who was driving? Some shave-headed mexican gang banger. He hit me and tried to take off. When the cops caught him about three blocks later (for once I can say the LAPD were there when you needed them- the nearest patrol unit was only a block away and had seen the accident.) you know what they said to them? Well, after he resisted arrest, thoroughly cussed out both officers through an interpreter (yep- he couldn't speak english either), he told them that although his parents were illegal immigrants, he had been born here in the states and (here's the kicker) he told the officers that as an "American Citizen" he had the "right" to drive his car whenever he wanted to. Without a liscense. Without insurance. Even without vehicle registration. Since then, I have learned that at his trial, the public defender (more and more of my tax dollars wasted on this scum) claimed that he shouldn't be held accountable because he was wasted on weed! :cantbeli:

I know I shouldn't judge an entire group of people based on "one bad apple" but take a drive through South Central (oh, excuse me, the PC term these days is "Southern Los Angeles".) and take a look at the low-income housing/baby-factories with the '03 Cadillac SUV (with 22" rims no doubt) parked out front.

Something needs to be done, but no one wants to be be the one to stand up, say to hell with the PC bull**** and take action.

I got rear ended too.. guess who? A hippy white trash frigging American. He did take off, got caught, no insurance. My insurance paid, my premiums went up and the guy has his license revoked again. Guess what.. do you think it stops him from driving? Nope.. people like that are a drain on society. It doesn't matter how you got here. If immagrants want to come clean and make their time here legal.. then great! It is a good thing becuase the people who will take that step are not the criminals and smugglers. How many criminals do you know are going to go to a Federal office and volunteer a backround check?
By the way.. the mexican gang banger is likely to have been born here. The mexican barrio was part of LA before California was a US state. If you are born here.. you are a citizen.. Your citizenship is base on you being born here Fallen, not the language you speak... not the color of your skin, and not where your parents were born. People are coming here for a reason. If they take the step to become a citizen it is a honor and a privelege to have them. ****ing shame on you.. immigration is what this country is all about... save American Indians.. we all thank immigrants, illegal or otherwise, for what we are today.
I know a lot of people who are illegal here in my city. Many are just as you said.. leaches on society, many are also shining examples of citizens. Hmm sound like the rest of America. Controlling the flow of immigrants; and making it possible for the people who want to contribute to our society to live here, are the only ways we can handle this.

[WARPIG]

Just a little history. Irish immigrants were long looked at as the dregs of society.. as the number of Irish flooding the US increased the role of the Federal government in immigration increased. Soon there were laws banning Asians as that demographic began to grow. From the 1920's through the world war, various restrictions banned many European immigrants from travel to the US. Mostly Italians. Calling it a "pause" to let the current immigrants assimilate to those less "PC" saying that the US is too caught up in democracy to see the obvious "lesser races" were a drain on society.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I can not even fathom why this is being considered. What does it mean to be a U.S. citizen then? Those people are in this country illegally i.e. they are criminals. Giving them a vote is pathetic and vote mongering for Bush. I have no problem with anyone coming to this country and abiding by our rules and laws, that is what makes a civilized society, and legally becoming a citizen. I take pride in that, this makes me want to puke and I bet our forefathers are spinning in their graves as well!!

This new program says nothing about giving illegals the right to vote.

The issue is a difficult one. We're a nation of immigrants. It's what we're made of. We don't want to reward illegal immigration, but the plain facts are that there are sectors of our economy that simply cannot function without them (agriculture for one).
This solution is clever, because it separates the people who come here to work from those who come here to suckle our national teet. If they're working, they're paying taxes, and paying for any services they use. Therefore, this program will only reward those who are contributing to the system. They are the ones we want. It allows them to become legal and documented. The rest can get the hell out, or get a job. I'm all for that.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Got some details from the Fox News site:


Fast Facts: Details of Proposed Immigration Changes

Wednesday, January 07, 2004

Some details of the changes in immigration policy proposed by President Bush, according to senior administration officials who spoke with reporters Tuesday:

— The new "temporary worker program" would allow any of the estimated 8 million illegal immigrants (search) already in the United States or anyone abroad to apply for the right to work legally in the country for a three-year renewable term. The White House is not saying how long the term could be extended or how many times it could be renewed.

— An applicant for the program already in the United States must pay an unspecified registration fee and show he or she is currently employed. Applicants still in their home countries wouldn't have to pay fees, but must have jobs lined up.

— Employer must show no Americans wanted the jobs being applied for.

— Temporary workers would get the same protections afforded American workers.

— The worker must return to his or her home country at the end of the term.

— Dependents of the temporary workers would be allowed in the United States if workers can prove they can support them. The workers would be allowed to move freely back and forth between the United States and their home countries.

— The White House also is calling for an unspecified increase in the number of green cards (search) granted annually.

— The plan also would provide incentives for workers to return to their home countries, including the promise of access to retirement benefits and new tax savings accounts.

— Congress would have to write legislation for the proposed changes to take effect.


Interesting...no voting rights, no citizenship & the employers have to prove no Americans wanted the job. Satisfies industry's need for workers while maintaining the ability to deport non-workers. hmmmm

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/img/2004/dancart1881.jpg

[WARPIG]

How stupid can people be. I am so sick of all the liberal sharp shooting that I have heard in the media today.
No where does Bush say or intend to afford any amnesty to illegal immigrants.
Allowing current illegals to come clean (and pay for it!) and offer potentials to go legal is not an attempt to ramp up immigrant labor.
Getting paperwork on all the illegal labor already in the country is a frigging smart move. People who want to come work here will do it anyway. If we give them the chance to do it legally we have a better chance at control. We also open the doors to more law abiding and white collar people who want to be US citizens but don't want to do it the traditional (illegal) way. The big companies won't even be affected by this... mostly small businesses, and mom and pop operations hire migrant labor. This will help them, which will help the economy.
Heck even if the labor restrictions are completely thrown out.. I say good. If the frigging heavily unionized, fat, spoiled, lazy workforce is threatened.. then maybe we will see some damn improvement in this country. If people from Honduras, or frigging Mars want to: pay for the opportunity, work harder, and earn citizenship in this country.... great! It is about time someone tried to earn their constitutional rights and freedom rather than ****ing whine about not having enough of of everything. Too many Americans complain about rights and freedoms that they are born with. How many actually have to earn it?