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XASA
01-07-2004, 04:12 PM
Marines to Offer New Tactics in Iraq
Reduced Use of Force Planned After Takeover From Army
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 7, 2004; Page A01


As the Marine Corps prepares to take over occupying much of western Iraq from the U.S. Army, it is planning a fresh approach that emphasizes restraint in the use of force, cultural sensitivity and a public message that the new troops aren't from the Army, according to an internal Marine document and interviews with top officers.



The working plan for Marines moving into the Sunni Triangle includes more interaction with Iraqis and a premium on respect for peaceable civilians. Marines will be taught a few words of Arabic, counseled on religious etiquette and ordered never to wear sunglasses when talking to Iraqis.

In a tactic reminiscent of the U.S. presence in Vietnam, platoons of Marines will live among the people in many Sunni towns and villages to facilitate training of the Iraqi police and civil defense forces, according to the document. To emphasize to Iraqis that the Marines arriving in Fallujah and other centers of resistance are a new crowd, the Marines are considering wearing green camouflage uniforms for their initial 45 days of patrolling instead of the dessert cammies worn by the Army.

Army officers and other military professionals who have seen the document summarizing the Marines' approach viewed it as an implicit criticism of the Army's tactics and results in the Sunni heartland west of Baghdad. Some called it unfair and ill-advised second-guessing. But others viewed it as a constructive attempt to learn from the hardships and mistakes of the Army in western Iraq, historically Saddam Hussein's power center and more recently the hub of the resistance that has hobbled U.S. efforts to rebuild the country.

Maj. Gen. James N. Mattis, the commander of the Marine Corps force scheduled to deploy soon to Iraq, said in a telephone interview that he doesn't see the Marine approach as a criticism of the Army. Rather, he said, the planning document reflects intense discussions and "the free competition of ideas in the world." The document was a summary of points made at a two-day Marine planning session last month in California.

"We don't see any difference in our appreciation of the situation from the 82nd Airborne," he said, referring to the Army paratroop division now in the area that the Marines will move into. "We believe very strongly that the 82nd Airborne has it right, not only in the estimate of the situation but also in their concept of operations and in their tactics."

But, speaking on the condition of anonymity, other Marine officers criticized the Army approach.

"I'm appalled at the current heavy-handed use of air [strikes] and artillery in Iraq," one said. "Success in a counterinsurgency environment is based on winning popular support, not blowing up people's houses."

Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division, based at Camp Pendleton, Calif., said he intends to pursue a two-track effort. One track will be aimed at capturing or killing what Mattis considers to be a small minority who are determined to fight the U.S. presence. He said he would employ some novel and aggressive tactics. At Mattis's request, The Washington Post is not printing information about those tactics.

The other track, he said, focuses on diminishing support for the resistance among the populace in western Iraq.

Among other things, Mattis plans to revive the Vietnam War's Combined Action Platoons (CAPs), small Marine units that lived among villagers and helped train them to defend themselves. The notes from the Marine planning conference state, "Idea is that this Platoon, similar to Vietnam, will live and work with Police and ICDC," a reference to the new Iraqi Civil Defense Corps that the U.S. occupation authority is creating to conduct some security functions.

These small units resemble an armed version of the Peace Corps, with training in such areas as cultural sensitivities and night patrolling. Details about how to use them are still being worked out and are likely to vary from town to town, one Marine officer said.

Retired Army Col. Harry G. Summers Jr., a historian of the Vietnam War, wrote that the CAP program represented a major difference between the Marine and Army approaches in Vietnam. While the Army tended to emphasize "search and destroy" operations in which they swept through an area and moved on, he wrote, the Marines settled on "clear and hold" operations in which CAPs stayed on land they held. CAPs are widely seen by historians as "one of the few success stories in Vietnam," noted John Miller, who fought in the war and wrote a book about it.

Marine officers said they are also aiming for more restraint in the use of force and intend to limit the use of heavy weapons, using bombs and weapons as a last resort. That contrasts with Army operations, in which airstrikes and artillery were sometimes used to intimidate at the outset of confrontations.

The Sunni Triangle, the parts of the Tigris and Euphrates valley north and west of Baghdad, has been where most attacks on U.S. troops have occurred over the past six months. The 4th Infantry Division, headquartered in Tikrit, has occupied its northern part. The 82nd Airborne now operates in its western section.


Some officers in both the Marines and the Army argue that the U.S. occupation there got off to a terrible start in April when several U.S. units moved through Fallujah.

At the end of that month, an Iraqi mob clashed with Army troops, resulting in shooting that killed 13 Iraqis and wounded scores more.

The western part of the Sunni Triangle is seen by many in the Army as the toughest ground in Iraq. Indeed, some Army officers who were interviewed expressed concern that any conciliatory Marine tactics would fail in the face of car bombings and armed mobs.

Retired Army Col. Lloyd Matthews said he found the Marine discussions somewhat distasteful. "It is hardly advisable in joint operations to denigrate the tactics of the sister service that preceded you in the trenches and to suggest that you are going to do a lot better," he said.

Matthews, a former editor of Parameters, the Army's premier professional journal, was also skeptical about whether the Marine CAP program would be viable in the hostile Sunni Triangle environment. "CAPs work only when they operate in a broadly secure environment," he said.

Army Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack Jr., commander for operations in the area the Marines will move into, declined to comment on the Marines' plan. But in a Baghdad news conference yesterday, Swannack, commander of the 82nd Airborne, said his soldiers "have turned the corner. . . . We're on a glidepath toward success as attacks against . . . [82nd Airborne] forces have decreased almost 60 percent" in a month.

Some Army officers in Iraq said the Marines' plan shows they are simply trying to capitalize on lessons learned in Iraq.

"I like the Marine approach, and I think it'll succeed," said Army Lt. Col. David J. Poirier, military police commander in Tikrit. "I love our Army, and I will not criticize it, but war is not free of mistakes, and I believe that some of the insurgency is due to families acting out against American forces for deaths occurring as a result of collateral damage."

Tane Angle
01-07-2004, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the article, XASA. It's one of the most encouraging ones I've ever read on here. Keep up the good work, Marines.


Army officers and other military professionals who have seen the document summarizing the Marines' approach viewed it as an implicit criticism of the Army's tactics and results in the Sunni heartland west of Baghdad. They're dang right it's critisism, but that's how problems get solved and methods improved, by first stating the nature of the problem. No body's perfect, and we should be able to take some constructive criticism. Teaching Arabic and cultural sensitivity sounds like real smart thinking. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

TriggerPuller
01-07-2004, 04:52 PM
"Restraint in the use of force", thats just ****ing great why dont we just send in the U.N. to take over all operations! This will not stop the insurgent foreigners from wanting to kill our troops. They are religious fanatics gentleman not rational compassionate human beings!

TP

Jack Mehoff
01-07-2004, 05:00 PM
The Army is too rough for the Iraqis so i'd guess they need to send in the Marines with a more feminine touch.

martinexsquaddie
01-07-2004, 05:04 PM
sounds like an idea that worth trying
sunglasses idea excellant plan simple and effective

California Joe
01-07-2004, 05:06 PM
I read an article today where they talked about Marines learning from mistakes made by the Army as an occupation force and how they were essentially having to "deprogram" the Marines that will be taking over in sections of the Sunni Triangle. From hunt and kill to make friends with the Iraqi's. Pretty good article but rife with interservice rivalry.

Edit: different article than above but quite similar in tone....

TriggerPuller
01-07-2004, 05:29 PM
The Army is too rough for the Iraqis so i'd guess they need to send in the Marines with a more feminine touch.**** you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TP

MarineSniper8541
01-07-2004, 05:44 PM
The Army is too rough for the Iraqis so i'd guess they need to send in the Marines with a more feminine touch.

Haha!

Trigger just ignore Jack :bash: If he didnt know the truth was just the contrary, he would not be trying to get a rise out of us :P

We love you, Jack :D

TriggerPuller
01-07-2004, 05:55 PM
The Army is too rough for the Iraqis so i'd guess they need to send in the Marines with a more feminine touch.

Haha!

Trigger just ignore Jack :bash: If he didnt know the truth was just the contrary, he would not be trying to get a rise out of us :P

We love you, Jack :D Yeah youre are right Iam just easily riled. When were you in?

TP

Tane Angle
01-07-2004, 08:28 PM
Anyone else notice that me, the soldier, is saying "Alright Marines!" and the Marine, TP, is letting them have it? Just some irony for us, I guess. :D

army cadet_ngcsu
01-07-2004, 08:31 PM
Well, I think that in a hostile enviroment the CAP will not work. These insurgents and the Sunni's (if not Muslims in general) hate us. They are like the French, no matter what we do for them, they will hate us. And please, like these people are not use to violence and killing, they saw it everyday under Saddam's henchmen. Only this time we are hurting people who try to hurt us and I believe that the air strikes and artillery is effective and it keeps these terrorist assholes in their shantees. We have to hit them and hit them hard while at the same time trying to keep in good standing with the people. If the people (specifically Sunni's) do not realize that we are doing our best to help them (economically, technologically, culturally, etc.) then they are trying to kill us for a reason, they just simply hate us cause that is what they are taught. Peace keeping is a very tricking thing, especially when you've got the whole world wanting you to fail and you have to appease many different ethnic and religious groups who hate each other...it is going to take time and A LOT of money!

Beowulf
01-07-2004, 08:40 PM
These insurgents and the Sunni's (if not Muslims in general) hate us. They are like the French, no matter what we do for them, they will hate us.

Really? Spent a lot of time in Iraq then have you?


Only this time we are hurting people who try to hurt us and I believe that the air strikes and artillery is effective and it keeps these terrorist assholes in their shantees. We have to hit them and hit them hard while at the same time trying to keep in good standing with the people.

Air strikes and artillery are effective...as area weapons. You will not win support by bombing the **** out of populated areas. It may keep "the terrorist assholess in their shantees" but it will sure as hell decrease support for the coalition, and when the terrorists come out of their shantees there will be a lot more of them.

Haiw
01-07-2004, 09:17 PM
These insurgents and the Sunni's (if not Muslims in general) hate us. They are like the French, no matter what we do for them, they will hate us.

Really? Spent a lot of time in Iraq then have you?
Or in France... :cantbeli:

earl
01-07-2004, 09:26 PM
Well, I think that in a hostile enviroment the CAP will not work.

Vietnam was a playground I guess. :|

army cadet_ngcsu
01-07-2004, 09:27 PM
No, I've never spent any time in Iraq, but it is apparent that many of the Sunni's are extremely displeased with the occupation and Muslims in general all around the world are upset with the US. The sympical fact of the matter is, is that we are losing men and we must do what it takes to bring our boys home and if that means blowing up an apartment complex known to shelter terrorists, then so be it.

I've also been to France and if public polls and the country's foreign policy towards the US does not put up a red flag to the average American that the French dont like us, then I do not know what will.

Beowulf
01-07-2004, 09:49 PM
Bringing all our boys home isn't the mission objective.

garyfanclub
01-07-2004, 09:54 PM
I agree with Beowulf, this is a totally different than the ground offensive last March. Patience, Restraint and Discretion are all immensely important. I agree that there are times when force is necessary but we cannot simply go in blowing up everything we see, because in the end of the day we are only ****ing ourselves over.

Beowulf
01-07-2004, 10:08 PM
Bringing all our boys home isn't the mission objective.

Let me clarify this statement. First i think playing hardball w/ the host nation citizens especially in the cities is gonna cause more problems than it will help. I think that having host nation support form the bottom up will save more lives, on both sides.

Every soldier knows that the mission comes above his/her life. That's what soldiers do; they do dangerous things b/c the goal is to help our nation. If helping my nation means I give the ultimate sacrifice then so be it.
It's easy t make the connection of sacrificing your life for something tangible, taking that machine gun nest or diving on a grenade to save your buddies so they can drive on to the objective.

It's not so easy to see the value of raising the risk to the soldier by trying to get him to ease off the kill em all attitude. The results aren't as readily tangible as the other examples. Thus they have trouble seeing the values of risking soldiers lives in order to avoid angering or alienatig the host nation civilians.

Now having said all that; I think that training soldiers in a little bit of cultural awareness and some fire discipline can't hurt. But the more rules and regulations you put on a trooper the longer his decision making process becomes, and thus you are putting him at risk and decreasing his combat effectiveness.

That's why the army has units specially trained to do the hearts and minds stuff. You don't want to put too much onto your front line combat units. Just a little cultural awareness and a lighter touch will be immensely valuable, but don't take it too far.

-b

Salty Dog
01-07-2004, 10:20 PM
No, I've never spent any time in Iraq, but it is apparent that many of the Sunni's are extremely displeased with the occupation and Muslims in general all around the world are upset with the US. The sympical fact of the matter is, is that we are losing men and we must do what it takes to bring our boys home and if that means blowing up an apartment complex known to shelter terrorists, then so be it.

I've also been to France and if public polls and the country's foreign policy towards the US does not put up a red flag to the average American that the French dont like us, then I do not know what will.

don't mean to be a ****, but is sympical even a word? because i couldn't find it on dictionary.com.

James
01-07-2004, 11:30 PM
Anyone else notice that me, the soldier, is saying "Alright Marines!" and the Marine, TP, is letting them have it? Just some irony for us, I guess. :D

Thanks, Tane.

I think that this CAP effort means, to some extent, what Teddy Roosevelt said: "Walk softly, but carry a big stick."

I like this idea. I posted an article about it somewhere around here a while back, as a matter of fact.

Tane Angle
01-08-2004, 06:54 AM
b is right, if there is one enemy in an apartment building, and we bomb the building to get him, that means perhaps hundreds of people just lost their homes, or even their lives. And then all of the survivors and their extended families won't be too big on Americans. Bombs just make more enemies usually.

By the way, Beowulf's post can apply to the Iraqi's, and the worlds, tolerance for civilian casualties. Early on, people might say "ok, some civilians might be killed to get free, we accept that," but now that the "war is over," there is less tolerance than before. Granted, the war isn't over, but people think that it is, or at least less dangerous now.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Javehn
01-08-2004, 07:18 AM
Not necesseraly true . Do you have any idea , how much problematic it is for simple soldiers to attack one man , or group inside the building ? That's suicidal act for soldiers . And ussually those who attacking soldiers do use empty/abandoned houses . Otherwise , it's the house owner himself doing the shooting , or with his permission and blessing . In all of those cases , the house itself considered to be a fire source , or fire point .
But however , i do must agree that the tactic used by army , wasn't going well they they overall mission objective .
As someone said above , that that's occupying army tactics . Wrong that is . If you wanna see ocupying army deeds , find out actions of , let's say , Portugueze army in Angola .
The tactic used by soldiers in Iraq ment to preserve soldiers lifes , and reduce it to minimum ( or even to non ) . But that tactic just don't go well with the place, with the mission that American forces came there to do .
On that particulare place , i think U.S troops better learn the tactic implemented by British forces , then the tactic learned from IDF .

WARPIG
01-08-2004, 07:39 AM
I do happen to know the risks of taking out an embedded group of soldiers in urban conditions. It is very hi-risk. We are trained to handle it.

The ciriticism is a little exaggerated in this article. Not completely unwarranted, but definately exaggerated. The Marine officers quoted might have been anonymous from their choice or because it was fabricated, or because the fact that they were cherry LTs would have discredited their statements.
Bottom line.. 82nd Paratroopers have been putting the hurtlock on the guerillas and terrorists for a while and are used to the pace and setting they have established. As the security issues and attacks taper off the pace needs to change. Sticking Marines in there with a whole new attitude and demeanor is a smart move. I don't know how effective it will be but the concept is a good one. Marines will criticise the Army for being too harsh or too soft at every opportunity.... it's just a competition thing. They always think they can do it better. If it were Marines they were replacing the same problems would be there just not so much "**** talking."
The media knows about the competative rivalry between Marines and Soldiers and use it to create a false tension.

Stop reacting to it!

Tane Angle
01-08-2004, 07:40 AM
Yeah, I'd like to think I have a good idea, I was the guy who's job was to stick my head out and find the shooter.

OldRecon
01-08-2004, 07:59 AM
Last time USMC tried the tactic with stationing small units in Vietnamese villages at the beginning of their employment in 1965, they apparently were making some progress with it.
Enough to make the VC somewhat worried at least, then Westmoreland and the army got it called of as "unsound" and "not in step" and told the Marines to go "search and destroy" instead rofl.

IDFM203
01-08-2004, 12:01 PM
From an Israeli perspective…………….

I actually agree with this article and with javhen, that now its best to tone it down and to not be as aggressive as before for the mission objective now is much different then what the IDF has…the IDF mission is in the absence of a true peace partner no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, it is forced to defeat the terrorism and to prevent it from reaching Israeli civilians and in essence the IDF mission objective is to defend the homeland from what was before constant shootings and homicide attacks (and it has in fact through its actions dramatically reduced the attacks), however the U.S. mission objective is a hearts and minds campaign (which Israel already tried with the Oslo process) from a population that is mostly friendly and the goal is to fix up the country so that the U.S. can leave and it will be a smooth transition.


However there was in fact a need for a bit of a get tuff policy (and certain aspect’s of it need to remain) and it worked, like I said before,

Now as for the U.S. military and hearts and minds…. well ill concede that perhaps its not the best for that BUT the U.S. needs to counter this outside terrorist influence or from the bathsists (SP?) that is spreading its claws in that country and needs to defeat it or radically reduce it so it can work freely in their good work of hearts and minds and helping the Iraqi people. Right now the U.S. is being greatly hindered from doing that due to this terrorism.

And it did show success,


Since adopting the new strategy US officials have noticed a sharp decrease in the number of attacks against US forces deployed in Iraq. The report quoted Lt.-Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top military commander in Iraq, who recently said that attacks on allied forces or gunfights with adversaries across Iraq had dropped to under 20 a day compared to 40 two weeks earlier
For more click Here. (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1070775782233&p=1006688055060)

Or like in the article in this thread “Swannack, commander of the 82nd Airborne, said his soldiers "have turned the corner. . . . We're on a glidepath toward success as attacks against . . . [82nd Airborne] forces have decreased almost 60 percent" in a month”

With that said, however I think that perhaps they were a bit too tuff..I mean artillery and A10 gunship’s (Israel never used those) were a bit too tuff and also like javhen said before, in Israel there is a need to barb wire certain areas due to the fact that some of those areas are only a 20 minute walk for a suicide bomber to inside of Israel cities, however it is a security issue and not a hearts and minds issue and the U.S. doesn’t have those homeland security issues there (like Israel does) and as such it was perhaps negative to employ that tactic which was not needed in the Iraq situation.

I think that the marines have a tuff road ahead and that the Iraq situation is going to be a bit tricky for the foreseeable future so they need to find the right balance of get tuff (for some of that is in fact still needed) and the hearts and minds which is critical to the mission success there.

I wish them good luck!!

Shalom :D

2Sheds_Jackson
01-08-2004, 12:04 PM
It's not a bad idea to try a different approach as things change there. Not necessarily a better way, but different.

It never hurts to try to establish some goodwill with the locals. These people are what we'd regard as socially primitive & it will go a long way to try to respect their customs etc.. They're not much into tolerance or egalitarianism.

As to whether the new tactics will be sustainable in the environment that exists is another question. Ideally we can get enough cooperation to get them to start policing themselves to some extent.

usa320
01-08-2004, 12:19 PM
I think the less force idea blows. SOme people ned a little force to comprehend things.

:bash:

My feeling is maybe in afew month this approach might work, but right now there are still too many hostiles to go easy.

Argyll
01-08-2004, 12:29 PM
Its going to be irrespective as to which unit goes into Baghdad,the truth of the matter is there are elements there who just simply do not wish the presence of US troops there at all,they were bombed to bits in 91,had crippling sanctions imposed on them,and then bombed again in 03,and then had 100's of thousands of those resposible descend into their country,hardly a story for succes is it ?
The Kurds and the Shia's are no longer being oppressed so they're happy,the Sunni's are now thoses being oppresed,and they have a hatred towards the West,and to the USA in particular........it was extrememly naive to think that once the Regime had fallen all would be rosy,and it sure as hell ain't rosy!
The stuff I was told by my buds who have just returned from Baghdad does not paint a pretty pictue !!

Royal
01-08-2004, 12:34 PM
Good luck to the USMC - good to see that they intend to make friends and influence people rather than shoot anything that moves.

Overreacting and use of area weapons against individual targets is what is feeding the attacks on coalition forces, not just inside Iraq, but also (through Al J) acting as a recruiting sergeant throughout the Islamic world.