Fundamentalist Christian Terrorism?

[Werewolf01]

Considering the three main elements of Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorism: ignoramce, intolerance, and fundamentalism, do you think that Fundamentalist Christian Terrorism is a possibility? Both religions, by their nature espouse patience, tolerance, and peace in all but their most radical forms. This simply started as a random thought. The more I think about it, and the more we hear headlines regarding terrorism, especially considering the attention it attracts, and the pull of fundamentalism in all its forms for the uneducated poor, the more I feel it is a possibility. Some may argue we have already witnessed its rise in the Balkans, or in the bombing of abortion clinics which I can think of no other adjective that would fit other that terrorist.Your thoughts? No flames please, this is just academic curiosity. Thanks! :D

[Redux]

thats funny, i recall tolerance as one of the elements of christianity. Whether or not some Christians themselves practice that is another matter.

[Werewolf01]

Sorry guys I though I added an option:

Yes, and it will be epidemic. Just treat it as yes or no.

[Ayura]

thats funny, i recall tolerance as one of the elements of christianity. Whether or not some Christians themselves practice that is another matter.


Paraphrase:

thats funny, i recall tolerance as one of the elements of Islam. Whether or not some Muslims themselves practice that is another matter.

[Legion]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

[Falco]

We've already seen it, look at the protestant/catholic tensions displayed in Ireland/Northern Ireland a few years back.

[Evil_Avatar]

thats funny, i recall tolerance as one of the elements of christianity. Whether or not some Christians themselves practice that is another matter.


Paraphrase:

thats funny, i recall tolerance as one of the elements of Islam. Whether or not some Muslims themselves practice that is another matter.

Ayura, you copy-cat!

Unfortunatly we missed great Christian militant movements, since they all fizzeled out some time after Renessance/Reformation.

[Redux]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

I dont recall the pope supporting it. imo it all boils down to how each individual interprets the Bible (or the Koran, for that matter).

[Legion]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

I dont recall the pope supporting it. imo it all boils down to how each individual interprets the Bible (or the Koran, for that matter).

The people that murder those doctors aren't real fond of Catholics either, so I don't imagine they would consult with the pope.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

[abncougar]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

very good point. this is why, IMHO, i believe islamic extremist and christian extremist are not opposite sides of the same coin.

[Ayura]

thats funny, i recall tolerance as one of the elements of christianity. Whether or not some Christians themselves practice that is another matter.


Paraphrase:

thats funny, i recall tolerance as one of the elements of Islam. Whether or not some Muslims themselves practice that is another matter.

Ayura, you copy-cat!

Unfortunatly we missed great Christian militant movements, since they all fizzeled out some time after Renessance/Reformation.


:)

[Nikitaras]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

The crime in and of itself revolves around the motive. Terrorism is violence used against civilians to achieve religious, political or ideological goals; therefore, the murder of abortion doctors or attacks on clinics definitly falls into the category of terrorism.

[Legion]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

You are right that it is not the exact same form of terror as killing random innocents, but from what I've seen, part of the goal of the doctor murders and bombings is to convince other doctors who give abortions to stop. That to me is the definition of terror, influencing behavior through violence.

[askDNA]

It depends. If Christians are still going to be harassed in places like Indonesia and parts of Africa, then violence will continue.

[Ayura]

It depends. If Christians are still going to be harassed in places like Indonesia and parts of Africa, then violence will continue.


Where is this harrasment? I would like to know more about this please.

[Inquisitor]

the other day I heard about forcing conversion to catholicism...the media are a funny thing,aren't they :roll: ?

[Inquisitor]

p.s.

I love how you didn't give the choice "yes" :lol:

[Legion]

...But most important is the belief that the divine word of any particular religion is the one and only truth, subject to no compromise. Hence fundamentalist Jews know, without doubt, that they are God's Chosen People. Christians know, without doubt, that when Armageddon arrives, true Christian believers will be saved and non-Christians condemned. Fundamentalist Muslims know, without doubt, that Allah will reward only their faith and not that of the infidels. The danger in each of these cases is that eternal salvation requires more than leading a good and humane life, it demands certain achievements during one's life - conquering land, converting non-believers, or destroying infidels...

http://www.flashpoints.info/issue_briefings/Analysis%20&%20Commentary/Analysis-Religion_main.htm

This to me is not a reflection on all Christians, Muslims, and Jews just a certain percentage. As with anything if you have too much, or go too far, 'tis not a good.

[Nikitaras]

p.s.

I love how you didn't give the choice "yes" :lol:

Reminds me of a Faux News poll rofl

[2Sheds_Jackson]

It depends. If Christians are still going to be harassed in places like Indonesia and parts of Africa, then violence will continue.


Where is this harrasment? I would like to know more about this please.

Well Saudi Arabia is a good place to start. Not hard to find in the news.

[BigBaribal]

It depends. If Christians are still going to be harassed in places like Indonesia and parts of Africa, then violence will continue.


Where is this harrasment? I would like to know more about this please.

Well Saudi Arabia is a good place to start. Not hard to find in the news.

There are currently forced conversions in Indonesia, even with circumcisions for the men (ouch!!!!!)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

The crime in and of itself revolves around the motive. Terrorism is violence used against civilians to achieve religious, political or ideological goals; therefore, the murder of abortion doctors or attacks on clinics definitly falls into the category of terrorism.

This puts me in the uncomfortable position of defending something I don't agree with personally, but here goes.

There is the concept of individual guilt and punishment at work. For the most part, we in the West believe that an individual is responsible for their actions - and that they alone should be punished for it.

Now we also have religious fundamentalists - who believe that God's word & law is supreme, and takes precedence over man's law. This is obviously contrary to the way most of us have agreed to behave in order to have a civilization - but there you have it. And so they believe the abortion doctor is committing state-sanctioned murder, and attempt to stop it by punishing those responsible for the crime.

While I think it is wrong, personally I find it much closer to vigilantism than terrorism. Sort of like the way people in a neighborhood sometimes resort to violence to stop a drug dealer when the police have proven ineffective. I feel absolutely no fear of being killed by militant Christians trying to stop abortion.

[askDNA]

It depends. If Christians are still going to be harassed in places like Indonesia and parts of Africa, then violence will continue.


Where is this harrasment? I would like to know more about this please.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3905607.stm [Indonesia]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3993857.stm [China]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3529364.stm [Iraq]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2549231.stm [India]

I have some more, but they're mostly on Christian websites, so a lot of you wouldn't deem that credible p-)

One more example is my father, who is from Malaysia and a Christian and ethnic Chinese. He had to go university in Singapore, because they won't let anyone that isn't a Muslim Malay get that education there.

[Durandal]

While I think it is wrong, personally I find it much closer to vigilantism than terrorism. Sort of like the way people in a neighborhood sometimes resort to violence to stop a drug dealer when the police have proven ineffective.

Except vigilantes are committing acts of violence against criminals. Bombing a Planned Parenthood clinic is terrorism. Not all the doctors there perform abortions. Not all the people using the facilities are there getting abortions. Hell, most women I know go there for gyno exams and birth control...not abortions.

So, if a fundamentalist Christian is attacking the facility, that person is in fact committing an act of terrorism, most of the business they conduct is in things completely unrelated to abortion.

I was raised as a Presbyterian. These people, are NOT Christians, the are Old Testament Fundamentalists for lack of a better term. Really no better than the Taliban to be frank.

And 2Sheds, you do not have to like it to defend it. I loathe lots of this country, but I defend their rights just as much as my own and my friends and family. Disagreeing with them is not bad thing. Trying to deny them the right is.

You should consider yourself a better person, not for tolerating, you can dislike it all you want, but for defending.

[Nikitaras]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

The crime in and of itself revolves around the motive. Terrorism is violence used against civilians to achieve religious, political or ideological goals; therefore, the murder of abortion doctors or attacks on clinics definitly falls into the category of terrorism.

This puts me in the uncomfortable position of defending something I don't agree with personally, but here goes.

There is the concept of individual guilt and punishment at work. For the most part, we in the West believe that an individual is responsible for their actions - and that they alone should be punished for it.

Now we also have religious fundamentalists - who believe that God's word & law is supreme, and takes precedence over man's law. This is obviously contrary to the way most of us have agreed to behave in order to have a civilization - but there you have it. And so they believe the abortion doctor is committing state-sanctioned murder, and attempt to stop it by punishing those responsible for the crime.

While I think it is wrong, personally I find it much closer to vigilantism than terrorism. Sort of like the way people in a neighborhood sometimes resort to violence to stop a drug dealer when the police have proven ineffective. I feel absolutely no fear of being killed by militant Christians trying to stop abortion.


This may be very, very loosely applied to an individual who targets another individual ie killing only the Doctor who performs abortions; however, with that said the person or persons who target planned parenthood facilities are terrorists. They view the facility and its inhabitants as legitimate targets even though there are many people who work in such places who are not affiliated with any type of abortion procedures such as receptionists, counselors, janitors, et al. The terrorists who carry out these attacks either see these people as willing participants because they know that abortions happen there or they are seen as collateral damage.

This is the same type of rationale that Al Qaida used. They viewed the Pentagon and Trade Centers as military nad economic targets. according to them the people working in there were either responsible because they know what goes on at these places or were considered collateral damage. Both types are barbaric terrorists who use their perverted sense of religion to justify their depravity. In fact recently convicted Christo-Fascist Clayton Lee Waagner had made the FBIs Top Ten Terrorists list in 2001 for Anthrax mailings to abortion clinics.

In June Waagner posted a manifesto on the Web site of the Army of God that made national news. In it he bragged of his travels, claiming to have stalked clinics, assembled a cache of weapons and compiled dossiers on clinic staff in order "to kill as many of them as I can." He said he would be "going after ... anyone who works at an abortion location or Planned Parenthood. (I don't care if their location actually performs abortions or not. ALL Planned Parenthood locations are targets.).

"It doesn't matter to me if you're a nurse, receptionist, bookkeeper, or janitor, if you work for the murderous abortionist I'm going to kill you."

[BigBaribal]

How many christians, even from the fundamentalist kind, are currently taking flight lessons, without learning landing procedures?

[Zoomie]

We've already seen it, look at the protestant/catholic tensions displayed in Ireland/Northern Ireland a few years back.
It really wasn't because of religion, it was just a convient thing to toss into the mix because the two sides broke pretty nicely along church lines.

[Para]

It really should be down to the State or should I say our Government to pursue these people by fair means and foul to any corner of the globe and deal with them. Forget civil liberties and fair play, if people are preaching for other people to kill you then there are a thousand and one ways to repay there kindness. It should be just the people that are causing this trouble who receive a visit from the Sandman, those who want to practise their religion in peace and quite should be allowed to do so.

[Durandal]

How many christians, even from the fundamentalist kind, are currently taking flight lessons, without learning landing procedures?

How many far right Christians are going to try to get a "Super Right" supreme court judge nominated?

;)

[tyovan]

Eric Rudolph bombed the Atlanta Olympics to fight abortion.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/13/eric.rudolph/


Also remember: many of the far-right militia and other hate groups profess to be Christians. Those are the people we should worry about. They're armed, and they are training. We all need to fear the day they decide to launch their plans.

http://www.google.com/Top/Society/Issues/Terrorism/US_Domestic_Terrorism/Groups/Christian_Identity?tc=1/


Fundamentalist Christian terrorism is already in the US - the questions we should be asking are: What will it take to set them off, and what will we do when they do that?

[fisheyestudio]

Hey howdy hey!

Fundamentalist Christian violence is a contradiction in terms. The "fundamentals" of Christianity are non-violent When God, took on flesh and walked among us as the Seed that had been prophesied, He never violated what He taught. The example of his life on earth speaks for itself.

It has been said before but I will say it again: we should never base our decisions about any beleif "system", upon it abuses. For example, I do not reject the Koran because of the evil that some men do in its name, I reject it because it holds no hope in and of itself.

Now it is very clear that some people "want" to reject christianity or are looking for validation for their negative feelings towards "Jesus Land" but please try and look beyond negative experiences with individuals or "church's" you may have had, and study the Book for yourself.

Just for fun let me list some of the "Christian Terrorism" activities I am involved in.

I pray regularly for all of you folks here, that Jesus will bless you and create opportunities in your life to seek Him out.

When I drive I pray for the other people I meet on the road.

When I visit a bookstore, I walk through the "new Age/witchcraft/Islam
etc. sections and pray that people will not be decieved by the lies of our enemy but will instead find real Life in Christ.

I sometimes pick people up who need a ride and help them, and tell them not to thank me but to thank Jesus because its Him who caused our paths to cross.

When I game online, I use "JesusSaves!" in my screen name just in case there is someone there who needs to talk...

I also teach the preschool, youth, and adults at our church.

Last but not least, when I am in the hospital for any reason, I let the Spirit guide me to cross paths with strangers there who need hope in their life.

And on occasion, I am able to give you folks a reason for the hope that I have in Jesus.

I know that there are those who do horrible things in the name of Jesus, but that does not make them "christians"....

Jesus blessings!
chris

[Russ.Dill]

Considering the three main elements of Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorism: ignoramce, intolerance, and fundamentalism, do you think that Fundamentalist Christian Terrorism is a possibility? Both religions, by their nature espouse patience, tolerance, and peace in all but their most radical forms. This simply started as a random thought. The more I think about it, and the more we hear headlines regarding terrorism, especially considering the attention it attracts, and the pull of fundamentalism in all its forms for the uneducated poor, the more I feel it is a possibility. Some may argue we have already witnessed its rise in the Balkans, or in the bombing of abortion clinics which I can think of no other adjective that would fit other that terrorist.Your thoughts? No flames please, this is just academic curiosity. Thanks! :D

Ever hear of the dark ages? Christianity was able to plunge a good portion of the world into the stonge age for hundreds of years. Which is what radical islamists are attempting to do now. If the Christians can do it, why not the Islamists? I think people who forget history, are doomed to repeat it.

[Wodan]

Considering the three main elements of Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorism: ignoramce, intolerance, and fundamentalism, do you think that Fundamentalist Christian Terrorism is a possibility? Both religions, by their nature espouse patience, tolerance, and peace in all but their most radical forms. This simply started as a random thought. The more I think about it, and the more we hear headlines regarding terrorism, especially considering the attention it attracts, and the pull of fundamentalism in all its forms for the uneducated poor, the more I feel it is a possibility. Some may argue we have already witnessed its rise in the Balkans, or in the bombing of abortion clinics which I can think of no other adjective that would fit other that terrorist.Your thoughts? No flames please, this is just academic curiosity. Thanks! :D


What about the ones that happend in Belgium, after the death of van Gogh, where they destroyed mosqes then?


I think the west as the more powerful site, wont have to use private terrorism, it can do it by state side.

[BigBaribal]

Considering the three main elements of Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorism: ignoramce, intolerance, and fundamentalism, do you think that Fundamentalist Christian Terrorism is a possibility? Both religions, by their nature espouse patience, tolerance, and peace in all but their most radical forms. This simply started as a random thought. The more I think about it, and the more we hear headlines regarding terrorism, especially considering the attention it attracts, and the pull of fundamentalism in all its forms for the uneducated poor, the more I feel it is a possibility. Some may argue we have already witnessed its rise in the Balkans, or in the bombing of abortion clinics which I can think of no other adjective that would fit other that terrorist.Your thoughts? No flames please, this is just academic curiosity. Thanks! :D

Ever hear of the dark ages? Christianity was able to plunge a good portion of the world into the stonge age for hundreds of years. Which is what radical islamists are attempting to do now. If the Christians can do it, why not the Islamists? I think people who forget history, are doomed to repeat it.


"The dark ages": a movie with Conan the barbarian? :lol:


Wow, it seems to me that the Middle-Age epocha is not well studied at school currently :roll:

And of course, anything can only be full white or full black.

[Clarsachier]

Organized asassanations, bombing - killing people involved in legal activities.

And with the goal of creating a climate of fear to cause people to be afraid of taking their legal right - subverting their personal freedoms and for the sake of a religous zealotry.

And sanctioned by religous organizations.

Fit's the definition of terrorism to a tee.

It will increase or decrease proportionally with the acceptance of fundamentalist zealotry here in the U.S., just as it has in the ME and
throughout history.

[dangerclose]

I don't think you will be seeing members of the 700 club or the Southern Baptist convention sawing the heads off unbelievers anytime soon. It's not Christian 'fundamentalists' you need to be afraid of anyways but rather Who they belong to.

[Ayura]

I don't think you will be seeing members of the 700 club or the Southern Baptist convention sawing the heads off unbelievers anytime soon


Clearly this happens on a daily basis in everyday homes in the Middle East...no really, I'm not joking - honestly...

[Javehn]

Islam today is like Soviet military equipment :

It's of excellent quality but it's being used by all the wrong nations (almost) :lol: .


Ayura , want original prayer rug ? ;)

[Ayura]

...In exchange for a few Yarmulke and a Shofar?

[Stormy]

Don't listen to that guy Javehn. I worked for him a few times as a mercenary! He is a Zionist and he don't pay up! p-)

[Javehn]

Don't listen to that guy Javehn. I worked for him a few times as a mercenary! He is a Zionist and he don't pay up! p-)

I like to keep my money as I keep my Gefilte Fish - Kosher . ;)

Oh god , I've just noticed that I posted in the wrong topic ... How embarrasing :oops:

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

very good point. this is why, IMHO, i believe islamic extremist and christian extremist are not opposite sides of the same coin.

What?

I thought "terrorism was terrorism" and is unacceptible period. I guess that only counts with Islamic Extremists eh? Because apparently Christians can bomb things better, or have a better rifle to shoot there abortion Dr. But thats ok, as long as they dont shoot anyone else in the process :roll:

I find this very hypocritical, especially coming from all guys 2 Sheds. I believe it was you the other day argueing with other forum users in a different thread how they were trying to "justify" the London bombings.... :roll:

[abncougar]

How many christians, even from the fundamentalist kind, are currently taking flight lessons, without learning landing procedures?

How many far right Christians are going to try to get a "Super Right" supreme court judge nominated?

;)

Far left Liberals would be doing the same thing. its politics

[abncougar]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

very good point. this is why, IMHO, i believe islamic extremist and christian extremist are not opposite sides of the same coin.

What?

I thought "terrorism was terrorism" and is unacceptible period. I guess that only counts with Islamic Extremists eh? Because apparently Christians can bomb things better, or have a better rifle to shoot there abortion Dr. But thats ok, as long as they dont shoot anyone else in the process :roll:

I find this very hypocritical, especially coming from all guys 2 Sheds. I believe it was you the other day argueing with other forum users in a different thread how they were trying to "justify" the London bombings.... :roll:


isnt terrorism "acts of violence for use as political gaines" or something like that

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
****unciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
2 : violent and intimidating gang activity <street terrorism> —ter·ror·ist /-ist/ adj or noun —ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective



from dictionary.com

[Russ.Dill]

Considering the three main elements of Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorism: ignoramce, intolerance, and fundamentalism, do you think that Fundamentalist Christian Terrorism is a possibility? Both religions, by their nature espouse patience, tolerance, and peace in all but their most radical forms. This simply started as a random thought. The more I think about it, and the more we hear headlines regarding terrorism, especially considering the attention it attracts, and the pull of fundamentalism in all its forms for the uneducated poor, the more I feel it is a possibility. Some may argue we have already witnessed its rise in the Balkans, or in the bombing of abortion clinics which I can think of no other adjective that would fit other that terrorist.Your thoughts? No flames please, this is just academic curiosity. Thanks! :D

Ever hear of the dark ages? Christianity was able to plunge a good portion of the world into the stonge age for hundreds of years. Which is what radical islamists are attempting to do now. If the Christians can do it, why not the Islamists? I think people who forget history, are doomed to repeat it.


"The dark ages": a movie with Conan the barbarian? :lol:


Wow, it seems to me that the Middle-Age epocha is not well studied at school currently :roll:

And of course, anything can only be full white or full black.

oh, right, because it wasn't *true* christians who kept europe in the stone age, it was athiests who bent and curved christianity to fit their whims. This period of time is remembered in the arab world.

"What happened in a certain country that was mentioned in the media yesterday is a clear aggression that is totally detached of any logic and is entirely unjustified. Whoever does such a thing is not a Muslim, nor a religious person. This is the kind of criminal act that only serves those who want to destroy mankind, and to thwart civilization and progress. Igniting civil strife and using the tools of war and destruction is the habit of the despicable Jews and Christians of the ancient nations, and the Koran has already deplored them for that..."

[SeanAshi]

These people are domestic terrorist and should be treated as such.
Church of True Israel: http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/
Christian Identity: http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm
Church of Jesus Christ Christain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ-Christian

[SeanAshi]

Among the group's teachings is that all non-whites — who are labelled "mud people" — have no souls and hence, no place at all in the afterlife; and since they are not going either to Heaven or Hell after they die, they have no incentive to self-regulate their earthly behavior. Jews are considered to be a race of devils, placed on Earth to do the bidding of Satan.
Looks like purgatory for us. :lol:

[dangerclose]

I don't think you will be seeing members of the 700 club or the Southern Baptist convention sawing the heads off unbelievers anytime soon


Clearly this happens on a daily basis in everyday homes in the Middle East...no really, I'm not joking - honestly...


So if it happens once a month then it's not a problem?

How many churces are there in saudi arabia? What was that? None?
What is the penalty for a muslim convert to christianity? Public execution by beheading according to the religion of peace.

[Ayura]

I don't think you will be seeing members of the 700 club or the Southern Baptist convention sawing the heads off unbelievers anytime soon


Clearly this happens on a daily basis in everyday homes in the Middle East...no really, I'm not joking - honestly...


So if it happens once a month then it's not a problem?

How many churces are there in saudi arabia? What was that? None?
What is the penalty for a muslim convert to christianity?


Blame it on the Saudi Arabian Royal Family. They are well-known for misapplication of laws.



What is the penalty for a muslim convert to christianity? Public execution by beheading according to the religion of peace.

Read following passage (Not doing so would be ignorant. Hence the burden)


Freedom of religion in Islam for both Muslims and non-Muslims:

The sections of this article are:

1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?
2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam.
3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?
4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates.
5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?
6- Conclusion.







1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?

Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception about this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.

Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.

"As most men are rebellious." (5:49), it is inevitable that there should be apostates even from such a religion of reason and common-sense as Islam. In Verse 5:54 above there is a warning to the Muslims that they should not repeat the history of the Jews, and become so self-satisfied or arrogant as to depart from the spirit of Allah's teaching. If they do, the loss will be their own. Allah's bounty is not confined to one group or section of humanity. He can always raise up people who will follow the true spirit of Islam. That spirit is defined in two ways:

1- They will love Allah Almighty and Allah Almighty will love them.

2- Amongst the Brethren, their attitude will be that of humility, but to wrongdoers they will offer no compromises, and they will always strive and fight for the truth and right. They will know no fear, either physical, or that more insidious form. They are too great in mind to be haunted by any such thought.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:55 "(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are (No less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)." Here we see Allah Almighty telling Muslims after he warned them from apostates in (5:54) that their real friends are: Allah Almighty, Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and the good Muslims who keep up with their prayers and charity, and who humbly worship their God.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.

The path to Allah Almighty is always open and Allah Almighty will be your friend as in verse (5:55) above, and he will forgive your sins for you once you repent as in the following verse: "Except for those that repent (Even) after that, And make amends; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:89).





2- The absolute freedom of religion in Islam:

Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.

Allah Almighty ordered the Muslims to kill the pagans who fought against the Muslims. The following Noble Verse talks about all of the enemies who fought the Muslims long and bloody battles:

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." The killing of the pagans who fought the Muslims during the time when Islam was not yet complete was essential.

Important Note: Noble Verse 2:191 above is not dedicated to the apostates as some Muslims use it to prove that the Noble Quran orders the killing of apostates. In fact, it doesn't even mention the apostates. It talks in general about slaying the pagans who declare wars on the Muslims. The pagans would obviously include the apostates who deserted Islam, but the Noble Verse certainly doesn't DIRECTLY order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam.

Allah Almighty promised that He will protect the Noble Quran from any corruption:

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"

"Nay, this is a Glorious Quran, (inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! (The Noble Quran, 85:21-22)"

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....". So long as Islam was not organized, with its own community and its own laws, the unbelievers and the Hypocrites from the People of the Book and the Pagan Arabs had hoped to wean the believers from the new teaching. Now that hope is gone forever with the complete organization of Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"

Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief.

"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. (The Noble Quran, 10:100)" Allah Almighty helps those whom He likes to be guided to His Straight Path. If anyone doesn't believe, or reverts back from Islam, it is then his loss and it is the Will of Allah Almighty.

"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)" Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.

"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)" Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.

"And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (The Noble Quran, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam.

"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" Again, no authority to Prophet Muhammad over those who accept or reject Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256).

Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.



The following was sent to me from Vipor Poison; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."

Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.

I found many verses in the Quran that teach us NO PUNISHMENT for an apostate BUT I found no verse that says the contrary.

Here is another verse about the freedom of expression in the Quran. many translators translate this wrongly and kill the meaning of the word making it a bogus and strange statement. Noble Verse 39:18 "Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding."

The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm."



The following two sets of Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Rached Blili; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Let us look at Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."

Let us look at Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"

The Noble Quran in all of the above Noble Verses is crystal clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims.





3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then?

The interpretation of those who prohibit women from education, even though Islam clearly allows education for women, and prohibit them also from driving, and oppress men by forcing them to grow beards, even though beards are NOT mandatory in Islam, doesn't mean much to me.

As we've seen above, it is quite clear, and beyond any questioning that Allah Almighty prohibited compulsion in religion and allowed the absolute freedom of religion to everyone. When Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him executed apostates, he did it because Muslims were at war time and because Islam was still partial, and Muslims needed protection from the hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who purposely entered Islam and deserted it later to create confusion among the Muslims as shown below in the Noble Verse.

The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. So if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.

I have no sympathy for those hypocrites of the Jews and Christians who got executed:

"A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)"

Please read "The absolute freedom of religion in Islam" section above for more details and explanations.

Please visit Islam prohibits forming alliance with Jews and Christians and non-Muslims.

Why do some Muslims call Americans and Westerners "Great Satan"?

What is the Wisdom of Islam?





4- My rebuttal about the historical Muslims' battles with the Apostates:

According to the Islamic history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him died, some of the Muslims had deserted Islam for several reasons. The biggest of those reasons was that they opposed paying the Zakah (2.5% of annual income of Islamic taxes for the poor). Keep in mind that Allah Almighty constantly Warning the Prophet and the Muslims from the hypocrites (false believers). The Arabs before Islam were used to exploiting each others. The strong ate the poor, and high interest rates were enforced on loans given to the poor to ultimately force them to sell of their cattle, sons, daughters and/or wives as slaves.

After the death of our Prophet, some of the rich hypocrites decided to join with the Pagan Arab tribes to fight the Muslims and end Islam. The leader of the apostates/renegades was Musylama Al-Kath-thab or Musylama the liar in English, started his army of infidels in what we call today the country of Oman, which is more than 1,000 miles away from Mecca and Medina where the Muslims resided.

After Musylama became strong and popular and was able to gather a big amount of pagans and hypocrites to form an army, he led them to march to Mecca and Medina to fight the Muslims. When his army finally reached the mountains near Mecca, the Muslims had fought them several battles until he ultimately was killed and his army was soundly defeated.

The objection that I have with some Muslims is for the following reasons:

1- It was the renegades or apostates that declared the war on the Muslims. The Muslims did not start the war.

2- We can't use the story of Musylama Al-Kath-thab to prove that it is ok today to kill any person who deserts Islam. Musylama was not a peaceful renegade. He wanted to destroy the Muslims through war. He had to be fought and killed. We can't use him as a standard and kill all renegades, especially those in the West for instance, who might embrace Islam and then desert it later due to the overwhelming anti-Islamic media and lies.

3- As I proved in this article, Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran talked about the apostates several times, and not a single command exists in the Noble Quran that orders the killing of any of them.

4- The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. As I said above, if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today.

5- Today, if a week-hearted and easily persuaded person for instance decides to embrace Islam and then gets easily persuaded to leave Islam, and then gets easily persuaded to embrace Islam again, and then gets easily persuaded to leave it and so on, then how is it right for us to apply the things that were applied to the hypocrites and Musylama Al-Kath-thab during and after our Prophet's time to this innocent individual?

6- We must never forget Allah Almighty's Command that honors the freedom of religion and choice in Islam in Noble Verse 2:256 and the others as shown in this article.

7- Some Muslims claim that the Caliphs did not apply Noble Verse 2:256 and others to the renegades, because the Caliphs knew that these Noble Verses are not applicable to them. My response to this is that we:

1. Don't know if the Caliphs had any choice to apply them back in the hostile environment that they existed in back then.
2. The Caliphs are not the measuring stick that the Muslims today have to follow, especially after knowing that the Caliphs themselves did things different from each others several times before on very major Islamic issues: [1] [2].





5- Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?

Please visit Does Islam really mean to force someone to Islam or else kill him?





6- Conclusion:

As we clearly see from the Noble Verses above, apostates are no longer to be killed in Islam. I am not here promoting apostates, but there is no reason to kill someone who doesn't deserve to be killed. Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, then the matter becomes different. But if a Westerner today for instance embraces Islam for a while and then changes his position due to the overwhelming false anti-Islamic media, then certainly killing that person would be a grave sin and a big mistake.


I hope that wraps up everything.

[Legion]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

very good point. this is why, IMHO, i believe islamic extremist and christian extremist are not opposite sides of the same coin.

What?

I thought "terrorism was terrorism" and is unacceptible period. I guess that only counts with Islamic Extremists eh? Because apparently Christians can bomb things better, or have a better rifle to shoot there abortion Dr. But thats ok, as long as they dont shoot anyone else in the process :roll:

I find this very hypocritical, especially coming from all guys 2 Sheds. I believe it was you the other day argueing with other forum users in a different thread how they were trying to "justify" the London bombings.... :roll:

No kidding. There is a fair amount of hypocrisy in this thread. It seems to me that terrorism can be justified if it is in the name or your god, but if it's someone else’s it evil.
There in lies the problem with organized religion.

[Werewolf01]

Well, thanks for the feedback. Some of you are reading what you want to read and some of you are not reading everything, and I am debating if some of you haveread anybody else's comment at all. I have to state that I kinda expected what I have seen so far. Yes, for those of you who are wondering I have actually heard of the"Dark Ages" which, as a term, is about as out of use as calling Sauerkraut 'Liberty Cabbage' but I digress. I am disturbed at how many people still labor under virtually Victorian perceptions of history.
I think we may well see rampant Christian Terrorism at some point. It seems to me that religions are beginning to splinter, just like mainstream political parties, especially in the US. Like any other idea that is flashed on a TV screen frequently enough, some of the sheeple will evetually pick it up and run with it. Some already have, but I think we shall see more. Sooner or later some firebreather will decide that removing the Ten Commandments from a courthouse (or something else just as inane) is an affront to God and start blowing things up in protest. Some sects of Christianity seem tobe making an effort to become more tolerant. Unfortunately, those sects are being counterbalanced by an increasingly intolerant fringe. Just my $.02. Thanks for the comments. I will check back again! :D

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes. The murder of abortion doctors is terrorism. Whether or not it grows is anyones guess.

Well I kind of agree with that, and also disagree a bit.

Obviously it's criminal - and horrible - but the one difference I would point out (for the purposes of discussion) is that when abortion was the problem, an abortion clinic is what was targeted. They did not blow up a bus downtown to protest an abortion clinic. Thus, if the practice of abortion is evil, they have directly targeted those they believe personally responsible for it.

As I said, it is a criminal act, and unacceptable in society, but is quite apart from deliberately murdering those who are in no way personally connected to or responsible for the objectionable acts.

very good point. this is why, IMHO, i believe islamic extremist and christian extremist are not opposite sides of the same coin.

What?

I thought "terrorism was terrorism" and is unacceptible period. I guess that only counts with Islamic Extremists eh? Because apparently Christians can bomb things better, or have a better rifle to shoot there abortion Dr. But thats ok, as long as they dont shoot anyone else in the process :roll:

I find this very hypocritical, especially coming from all guys 2 Sheds. I believe it was you the other day argueing with other forum users in a different thread how they were trying to "justify" the London bombings.... :roll:

I don't think that was me...I haven't posted anything about the London bombings (unless I was drunk at the time, which is a distinct possibility).

Let me try to clarify what I'm getting at.

I am not defending the action - I condemn it - and it does fit the broad description of terrorism. I’m simply saying that it is an entirely different kind of terrorism than is practiced by the “Islamist” terrorists. I see it as more of a vigilante type action vs. a terrorist action. (BTW, vigilante action does not have to be in support of civil law – it can more broadly be used to describe people who are doling out their own form of justice.)

For example (and yes, it’s a stupid one) -if it became legal tomorrow to murder blonde people for insurance money, I suspect some of us would take up arms to stop the practice. Now, how we do that will define what we are. We can’t go to the police, since they are bound to uphold the law – which allows the killing of blondes. Every day we wait for the legislature –dominated by brunettes – to change the law, results in 100’s of more dead blondes. So we must act ourselves –quickly and decisively. Do we begin arbitrarily killing people by blowing up markets and busses & sending notes to the newspaper with political demands, or do we burn down the blonde processing centers, or kill the blonde killing doctors?

Don’t dismiss the example as being to outrageous to be illustrative. Some pro-abortionists in academia have advocated killing children as old as 6 months (that’s 6 months after they’re born) – and we may yet see that as a reality as society continues it’s march away from morally derived “community” rights and toward unrestricted individual freedom.

So yeah I do consider it terrorism. I’m just saying that the fact that the average Joe on the street has nothing to fear from a militant Christian because they have historically only targeted those who are directly responsible for the immoral (in their view) act. This is by design, and IMHO worthy of pointing out. But it is still illegal and outrageous –and those responsible must be punished. Just as a court doles out punishment that is particular to the crime at hand, I think it’s important to keep certain aspects in mind when painting things with the broad brush of terrorism.

Those worried about "rampant" Christian terror are simply not acquainted with reality. Take a look at the number of these incidents over time - some of the figures I saw show that they are on the decline - and occur so infrequently as to barely merit national attention. It's hard to find accurate stats - since many of the sites are nearly as extreme as the loons doing the bombng. But from what I could find in stats for the US, since 2000, there have been no murders or attempted murders of abortion docs - and only 15 incidents or attempted incidents of bombing or arson at clinics. For a nation of nearly 300 million, over 6 years - that barely warrants a blip on the national radar - yet we are apparently awash in a sea of fundamentalist Christian terror?