Bush did not send our Boys into Iraq unprepared

[delta bravo]

Check out this site:

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/06/23/1782/

Watch the video clip and then read what is below…..

I actually watched this episode of The Daily Show Last Night on Comedy Central. I usually enjoy the jokes and name calling, but last night it was too much politics and not enough jokes at the microphone.
In my opinion, Howard Dean made a complete foul and liar out of himself.

Here is my question: Would the Bush Administrations purposely send our troops into Iraq “unprepared” and “not properly equipped” as Howard Dean so nicely put? I think this notion is crap. I truly trust the Bush Administration to equip me, for when I go off to war. From what I have read in the AP, Bush does trust the Generals on the ground….. What is goin on…..

From what I understand, ever since Bush stepped into office as President, the US military has done an about face (180 degree for you nonmilitary types). Just take a 30-second glance at the HUGE military advancements we have made in the last 4 years under President Bush’s military.


Here’s how the site starts off:
“Sheesh .. Dean’s appearance on The Daily Show was preaching to the choir.. TO THE MAX. After everything the Doc said, everyone clapped. The segment is littered with hypocrisy, ranging from Dean saying the Republicans are name callers to “I will only say the facts”(paraphrase). That is why you lied here.”

Check it out and see what ya think…

[vote for Pedro]

When I was in the military we seemed to have everything we needed. Now that I am out, I am not so confident, as me and my family had to take a collection to send my little cousin supplies in Afghanistan. He is in the friggen 10th Mountain Division, and we had to send armor, unbelievable.

[HooyahCQB]

I would put more blame on how the military has decided how much to spend on what rather than on Bush.

[jedisponge]

I would put more blame on how the military has decided how much to spend on what rather than on Bush.
And Congress.

[vote for Pedro]

I would put more blame on how the military has decided how much to spend on what rather than on Bush.
And Congress.

I agree, I just wish someone whether it's Bush, Congress, or the military brass had the BALLS to step up and take responsibility for why my cousin's 10th Mountain Division had families sending armor and other gear. I think it is ridiculous that this crap goes on with the strongest military and economy on earth.

[stateofequilibrium]

A lot of my friends were support personnel in Iraq. A few things struck me. When the convoys were cut off like last year in the heavy fighting, the food situation wasn't that bad. They survived off of fruits and top ramen, heh, something good to balance the cholesterol. One of my friends also said most of his squads weapons did NOT fire. I asked him if they were cleaned, etc. He said yes, yes.. they were piece of ****s and a lot of others had the same problem as well. Their guns simply didn't work.

[delta bravo]

Hey stateofequilibrium,
Thanks for the reply:
Can you elaborate on the guns not firing situation thing….. I mean that’s a big deal… It reminds me of 1964 when the USA had to outfit the M-16’s (being used by in Vietnam) with chrome-plated chambers. The chrome in the chambers (bling-bling) resisted pitting and corrosion… and thus.. prevented the jamming of the weapon.

Tell More

Thanks –P

(By the way everyone else: ever heard of “the red ball express”) Trust me – No matter what we have got to fight with; the good guys will win..

[Russ.Dill]

On this topic, I found it pretty funny in batman begins when you brought out the suit of armor, and said that it cost 300k the army couldn't be bothered to spend that much on a soldier. Kinda comical, given the amount of money that is actually spent on training, equiping, deploying, and supporting soldiers.

[budgie]

I think that barring a few shortages in equipment the troops were well enough prepared. After all they won the war against Saddam's regime didn't they? It's always nice to have a few more flakjackets or armour plates for vehicles but lots of armies make do with none at all...

[Para]

It is just not down to the President to keep an eye the readiness of America's armed forces. there is also Congress and the funds that they allocate, and there are all the Generals and other staff that should be monitoring these matters. Lets face it Bush was talking about Iraq from just 9/11 and his threats built up from there, so during this time what where the Military planners doing.

[Secret Squirrel]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

[Durandal]

Tell you what, I would agree if it weren't for the fact that GOOD generals have been dumped because they disagree till the administration finds a politically reliable one that is a "yes man".

They have done this and it cannot be argued. Seriously, do a little research and look into it. From the beginning of A-stan to current.

Not a good thing.

Rummy is a McNamara for sure in many ways. Even appearance. Which is quite amusing. He wants a smaller, more mobile military, with higher technology. Suddenly we needed more troops. Troops that he did not want to send but ground commanders were calling for. They were sent, but were not at the same state of preparedness as those on the ground in theater in the first wave.

Then there is the whole Humvee fiasco. We knew from experiences in Somalia that Humvees and light vehicles were poor substitutes for medium and heavy armor. We had an entire armored division pretty much trade their heavy armor for humvees to "better engage in an urban environment".

Complete and utter crap.

[ElHombre]

Here is my question: Would the Bush Administrations purposely send our troops into Iraq “unprepared” and “not properly equipped” as Howard Dean so nicely put? I think this notion is crap. I truly trust the Bush Administration to equip me, for when I go off to war. From what I have read in the AP, Bush does trust the Generals on the ground….. What is goin on…..

good lord, i don't think baghdad bob told this much BS.


From what I understand, ever since Bush stepped into office as President, the US military has done an about face (180 degree for you nonmilitary types). Just take a 30-second glance at the HUGE military advancements we have made in the last 4 years under President Bush’s military.

yes, we have quite a few new toys to play with. of course, f-22s don't have much use in escorting convoys through dangerous streets, but...

[Yosy]

Tell you what, I would agree if it weren't for the fact that GOOD generals have been dumped because they disagree till the administration finds a politically reliable one that is a "yes man".

They have done this and it cannot be argued. Seriously, do a little research and look into it. From the beginning of A-stan to current.

Not a good thing.

Rummy is a McNamara for sure in many ways. Even appearance. Which is quite amusing. He wants a smaller, more mobile military, with higher technology. Suddenly we needed more troops. Troops that he did not want to send but ground commanders were calling for. They were sent, but were not at the same state of preparedness as those on the ground in theater in the first wave.

Then there is the whole Humvee fiasco. We knew from experiences in Somalia that Humvees and light vehicles were poor substitutes for medium and heavy armor. We had an entire armored division pretty much trade their heavy armor for humvees to "better engage in an urban environment".

Complete and utter crap.

Yes, the "Powell Doctrine" (sending massive number of troops, etc basically Gulf War 1) wasn't used in this war and should have been, just like General Shinzeki wanted.

The Humvees are indeed a fiasco - as fuel-efficient as the Queen Mary, to start with. Why not use the tried-and-tested M113s?

Meanwhile the US continues to spend money in such useless programs like nuclear resaerch and F-35.

[Deuterium]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

[CONSERVATIVE53]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

Exactly, I got to talk to my brothers friend who was in Iraq during and after the invasion, and he said that old men were running up to their vehicles kissing the marines. They also said kids were trying to play with them on patrol. He said the Iraqi's were really happy to be free and not have to live under Saddam.

[oregongrunt]

When my infantry battalion went into Iraq during the 2003 invasion, our trucks and other equipment were still at sea. We had a bunch of these SUVs from Kuwait City for transportation. Our body armor didn't show up until a week after we were in Iraq. I wondered what the damn rush was, but was told that Saddam was blowing bridges, oil wells , fortifying positions and getting his chemicals ready so off we went. I'll tell you one thing, they pulled out all of the stops and gave us all of the ammo and water we could possibly carry. Unfortunately, we were lucky to get one MRE a day for the first weeks. We may not have been properly equipped, but we kicked some RG ***.

[pathfinder82]

When I was in the military we seemed to have everything we needed. Now that I am out, I am not so confident, as me and my family had to take a collection to send my little cousin supplies in Afghanistan. He is in the friggen 10th Mountain Division, and we had to send armor, unbelievable.


This topic is completely ridiculous and wrong, anyone who served in a-stan or iraq, or has friends or family that currentley do has heard the stories either written down or directly from their mouths. Its a fact.

Going to a military supply store to buy your own body armor is messed up no matter how you slice it.

[abncougar]

When I was in the military we seemed to have everything we needed. Now that I am out, I am not so confident, as me and my family had to take a collection to send my little cousin supplies in Afghanistan. He is in the friggen 10th Mountain Division, and we had to send armor, unbelievable.


This topic is completely ridiculous and wrong, anyone who served in a-stan or iraq, or has friends or family that currentley do has heard the stories either written down or directly from their mouths. Its a fact.

Going to a military supply store to buy your own body armor is messed up no matter how you slice it.

so its ridiculous and wrong or its a fact?? they don't have to buy their own body armor or they do. sorry, you confused me with your statement.

[TJYoung80234]

This was probably already mentioned... and I'm not one to read through pages of posts... especially about political rants... but I'll tell you this basing off of the first post:

I was in the Marine Corps... and I went into Iraq while out on a MEU during the first week of the war. The following disturbed me:

-Lack of armor on Hummers... we were COMPLETELY bare... a 9mm round could penetrate my door and hit me.

-Lack of ammo... we had enough ammo to substain one firefight... but would then be screwed (2 grenades for my whole section of 4 trucks :| )

-Lack of SAPI plates... these are what goes into your flak jackets to stop 7.62 rounds... I got two plate... both front pieces, and too small. I probably covered maybe 15% of my body IF THAT... and there were way too many gaps with the armor being curved (front pieces... keep in mind).

-Lack of support and supplies... we had enough food to last less than a week (we ended up eating 1 or 2 meals if we were lucky)... and absolutely no communications to the outside world. Now, Army soldiers and other stationed in camps have cable, internet, phones... we had NOTHING. You were lucky if you could use the secure phone at ONE camp, in a 1 hour window.


So from the horses mouth... no, we weren't well supplied. It is well known that shortly after the beginning of the war reports began to surface that soldiers/Marines were not well equipped enough... I believe it (keep in mind... now having reached the largest mark in deaths over in Iraq, the body armor we used has been recalled for not holding up to its' promises. I'll also tell you that the Marines tested those vests PRIOR to the war and told the government that they were not good enough... even wrote articles in the Marine Corps Times). I know MANY times my Commanders screamed for needed supplies and got nothing.

The Bush administration knew about these insufficient conditions, yet sent us anyway. All on the basis of WMD which we never found. Could it have waited another 6 months for us to get better equipped... YES.

[TJYoung80234]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

2nd BN, 2nd MAR... sure we got the smiles the first 4 days... then it was "Go home America!", "Down with America!"... rants, raves... and people who would kill their own son to survive.

I can remember quite a few times going from shaking hands to beating them back with a wooden stick :bash: . The illusions of flowers and smiles were all on the news broadcasts... what they didn't show were the demonstrations in the streets, and people throwing rocks at soldiers yelling for them to leave.

What I see in the future is America having to pay Iraq back for all of the collateral damage we made. You thought we spent millions already... JUST YOU WAIT. Woohoo! :-*$

[pathfinder82]

I can remember quite a few times going from shaking hands to beating them back with a wooden stick :bash:

thats an excelent use of emoticons, its like it was made for that comment. :)

[pathfinder82]

When I was in the military we seemed to have everything we needed. Now that I am out, I am not so confident, as me and my family had to take a collection to send my little cousin supplies in Afghanistan. He is in the friggen 10th Mountain Division, and we had to send armor, unbelievable.


This topic is completely ridiculous and wrong, anyone who served in a-stan or iraq, or has friends or family that currently do has heard the stories either written down or directly from their mouths. Its a fact.

Going to a military supply store to buy your own body armor is messed up no matter how you slice it.

so its ridiculous and wrong or its a fact?? they don't have to buy their own body armor or they do. sorry, you confused me with your statement.


The armor they were given when they hit the ground was worthless, the majority would not have stopped rifle rounds, so a lot of guys shelled out over a grand to get a system that would.

Thats completely out of control, Rumsfeld should pick up the tab for all of the poor guys who bought there own body armor. Cheney and Bush can help pick up the tab as well. Having to shell out 1,000-2,000 dollars on body armor can severely hurt a family living on a military budget. Most of the younger guys got help from parents, so you have private citizens directly funding a war in a round about way. Yet nobody seems to care, it was in the media for what a week at most, then something else came along... :|

[BigBaribal]

And remember, your vice-president is keeping his Halliburton stock-options until 2007!

[oregongrunt]

You guys were there during the same timeframe that I was. I forgot all about the grenades, every third guy got one grenade and I throw my only one on the third day of the war. Maybe we should start are own thread.

[sergey31]

Too bad Comanche was canned.... :(

[vote for Pedro]

And remember, your vice-president is keeping his Halliburton stock-options until 2007!

Yea, I bet the Haliburton workers have the proper equipment.

[Secret Squirrel]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

I see, so we're back to the insurgency is mostly foreign fighters? Or are you trying to defend the post-invasion plan? Or is this just a case that you were unable to put my comments into the context of the thread? ;)

[Deuterium]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

I see, so we're back to the insurgency is mostly foreign fighters? Or are you trying to defend the post-invasion plan? Or is this just a case that you were unable to put my comments into the context of the thread? ;)

No I don't want your comments to stand as fact. I was there, were you? I was there in As Sulaymaniyah, Halabjah, Irbil, and Kirkuk. I know what happened during that time. I know the reaction of the people. I want to make clear the fact that you are NOT speaking the truth. If you were there then please tell us what it was like. Tell us what the people were feeling those days. Tell us what they were saying.

Let me be blunt. You are not speaking the truth. You are lying. You are not speaking from facts, first person accounts, or even anything remotely based upon the facts of those days. You are fraudulently painting a picture of what DID NOT HAPPEN.

I've been to Iraq on four rotations now. (Yes I'm back. I got back on 4th of July.) If there is one thing I believe I can speak with some authority it is what Iraq was like before the war and what it is like now.

[JoaMei]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

I see, so we're back to the insurgency is mostly foreign fighters? Or are you trying to defend the post-invasion plan? Or is this just a case that you were unable to put my comments into the context of the thread? ;)

No I don't want your comments to stand as fact. I was there, were you? I was there in As Sulaymaniyah, Halabjah, Irbil, and Kirkuk. I know what happened during that time. I know the reaction of the people. I want to make clear the fact that you are NOT speaking the truth. If you were there then please tell us what it was like. Tell us what the people were feeling those days. Tell us what they were saying.

Let me be blunt. You are not speaking the truth. You are lying. You are not speaking from facts, first person accounts, or even anything remotely based upon the facts of those days. You are fraudulently painting a picture of what DID NOT HAPPEN.

I've been to Iraq on four rotations now. (Yes I'm back. I got back on 4th of July.) If there is one thing I believe I can speak with some authority it is what Iraq was like before the war and what it is like now.

You were in Iraq before the war? What makes you think you know what the locals feel and felt?

[Secret Squirrel]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

I see, so we're back to the insurgency is mostly foreign fighters? Or are you trying to defend the post-invasion plan? Or is this just a case that you were unable to put my comments into the context of the thread? ;)

blah blah blah.

:roll: Context is everything and you seem to be missing a lot of it. Try reading the thread again, maybe you'll understand. Of course you seemed to ignored a previous post that addressed your knee-jerking. ;)

[Deuterium]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

I see, so we're back to the insurgency is mostly foreign fighters? Or are you trying to defend the post-invasion plan? Or is this just a case that you were unable to put my comments into the context of the thread? ;)



No I don't want your comments to stand as fact. I was there, were you? I was there in As Sulaymaniyah, Halabjah, Irbil, and Kirkuk. I know what happened during that time. I know the reaction of the people. I want to make clear the fact that you are NOT speaking the truth. If you were there then please tell us what it was like. Tell us what the people were feeling those days. Tell us what they were saying.

Let me be blunt. You are not speaking the truth. You are lying. You are not speaking from facts, first person accounts, or even anything remotely based upon the facts of those days. You are fraudulently painting a picture of what DID NOT HAPPEN.

I've been to Iraq on four rotations now. (Yes I'm back. I got back on 4th of July.) If there is one thing I believe I can speak with some authority it is what Iraq was like before the war and what it is like now.

You were in Iraq before the war? What makes you think you know what the locals feel and felt?

Uhhhh because that was my job. To get to know the people, to find out what they were thinking, to live with them, eat with them, fight along side with them, that was my job. That's always been my job.

[CONSERVATIVE53]

And of course you missed this Secret Squirrel. Just like the question I repeated maybe 90 times the other day but you just "didn't see" ;)

"No I don't want your comments to stand as fact. I was there, were you? I was there in As Sulaymaniyah, Halabjah, Irbil, and Kirkuk. I know what happened during that time. I know the reaction of the people. I want to make clear the fact that you are NOT speaking the truth. If you were there then please tell us what it was like. Tell us what the people were feeling those days. Tell us what they were saying.

Let me be blunt. You are not speaking the truth. You are lying. You are not speaking from facts, first person accounts, or even anything remotely based upon the facts of those days. You are fraudulently painting a picture of what DID NOT HAPPEN.

I've been to Iraq on four rotations now. (Yes I'm back. I got back on 4th of July.) If there is one thing I believe I can speak with some authority it is what Iraq was like before the war and what it is like now."

[pathfinder82]

You guys were there during the same timeframe that I was. I forgot all about the grenades, every third guy got one grenade and I throw my only one on the third day of the war. Maybe we should start are own thread.


Wow thats pretty messed up, frags always made me nervous though, perhaps that s what the upper upper was thinking.

A bunch of young guys rolling from town to town clearing buildings, you can get a lot of "bounce backs" in those conditions.

Then again it could have been a shortage, but this is the first I have heard of it, Ill ask some others when I get a chance.

[Miles.]

they were sent in with illusions of flowers and smiles and dellusions that Iraq would pay and and take care of it's own reconstruction. I'd call that sending the troops in unprepared.

Strange I seem to remember quite a few days of being pelted with flowers and smiles throughout the north mid-April. Were you there? Which unit were you with?

I see, so we're back to the insurgency is mostly foreign fighters? Or are you trying to defend the post-invasion plan? Or is this just a case that you were unable to put my comments into the context of the thread? ;)

blah blah blah.

:roll: Context is everything and you seem to be missing a lot of it. Try reading the thread again, maybe you'll understand. Of course you seemed to ignored a previous post that addressed your knee-jerking. ;)

Of course, we village idiots aren't smart enough to comprehend what he is saying. It seems that no one can truly understand the "context" of what you are saying. That must be frustrating, Squirrely.


Or maybe, just maybe, ^he knows what he is talking about, and you don't. And you can't retract your useless remarks because of ego? Maybe we wouldn't think you're the smartest guy in room?

[Secret Squirrel]

Of course, we village idiots aren't smart enough to comprehend what he is saying. It seems that no one can truly understand the "context" of what you are saying. That must be frustrating, Squirrely.


Or maybe, just maybe, ^he knows what he is talking about, and you don't. And you can't retract your useless remarks because of ego? Maybe we wouldn't think you're the smartest guy in room?

I could care less when other people think about my intelligence. But unless you're having trouble reading the thread, at least one person (a BTDT nonetheless) knew what I was refering to. ;)

[Erik2a4]

I could care less when other people think about my intelligence.

I've formed my opinion... :lol:

I had plenty of organic equipment in Iraq. Yes, there was trouble with vehicular armor, etc. Why? Because no one envisioned a need for it.

The Marines who replaced us were short on many items of supplies and equipment.

In reference to the unit whose MGs didn't work: they didn't try and do a code-out? Lateral Transfer? Did they get T/I'ed by the FSB or MSB? What about the annual inspection by Rock Island? No one, in the entire Army Maintenance and Supply system, from unit armorer to IG could figure out how to fix these MGs?

Or, just maybe it could be a bit of operator failure? The Army's maintenance and supply system is far from perfect. But I'm pretty skeptical about the claims. :roll:

JoaMei and Secret Squirrel: You guys are always good for laughs. It varies between "laughing with" and "laughing at." :lol:

[Durandal]

Too bad Comanche was canned.... :(

Completely irrelevant to the discussion.

In fact you could argue that rather than building a super expensive light weight chopper that could not carry missiles AND a gun (trust me on this, I know, personally, one of the head engineers on the project and the best friend of the owner of the company that was building the gun) the DoD should have spent money on what mattered.

A perfect example of misspent funds.

You could have taken all the money spent, properly equipped the forces AND given them all heavy duty MOUT security training prior to the conflict.

[toad]

FWIW. My uncle is currently in camp Speicher with an aviation support unit (PANG). I asked if I could send anything and he said 'lord no' we have everything we want. Being on a base is different from being in the field, I realize that, but in terms of readiness, equipment, and supply he said that it has far exceeded his expectations. His deployment has been 'excellent' as he puts it.

Not only is that his experience, but the unit they replaced felt positive about the rotation. Now he has just gotten visitors from the new unit which will rotate in in the fall. They too think things are going well from a materiel and mission standpoint. My uncle and I were in the same unit, and I have heard him speak of some things stateside that were not ideal..... but from the training pre-deployment in Ft Dix to the deployment in Iraq. He has had nothing but praise for those who planned and supplied and participated. He has not had complaints nor problems from his team, and as he pointed out to some peers in the 101st, he has worked with most of his guys for 20 years. They get along, and have been treated 'very well' on thier deployment.

He would NOT agree that his unit was sent in 'unprepared' or not fully equipped and/or not supported.

[Werewolf01]

A lot of my friends were support personnel in Iraq. A few things struck me. When the convoys were cut off like last year in the heavy fighting, the food situation wasn't that bad. They survived off of fruits and top ramen, heh, something good to balance the cholesterol. One of my friends also said most of his squads weapons did NOT fire. I asked him if they were cleaned, etc. He said yes, yes.. they were piece of ****s and a lot of others had the same problem as well. Their guns simply didn't work.

You are going to seriously disillusion a lot of people on this board who think the M16 is a God Gun that fires laser guided bullets that kills bad guys even with a near miss.