Cool vid on the Next generation sidewinder

[gc]

Didn't know the missile can twist and turn so well till i saw this vid. No point having thrust vectoring on planes when you can never turn a plane as fast as your head. ;)

http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_054519.wmv

[soma]

It's rather retarded spending millions in plane development isn't it then? :cantbeli:

[JoaMei]

Nope, Thrust vectoring has other advantages like making the plane stall safe and reducing the needed runway lenght for start and landing.

But you are right, even that P-3 Orion can score a fighter kill with that.

[PeterG]

It's rather retarded spending millions in plane development isn't it then? :cantbeli:

There is the small matter of actually getting in close enough to fire one of these close range missiles...You might have to survive a volley of BVR (beyond visual range) missiles first.You need very sophisticated ( hence very expensive ) aircraft,to survive modern aerial combat.Aircraft like the F-22 and the Eurofighter.

Simply adding modern missiles to old aircraft won't do.

[nagant_m44]

Alot of missiles can turn better then any plane out there today... Poor f-4's though... :(

[signatory]

that video :

Video: Windows Media Video 7 320x240 202Kbps

202kbps ? Ugh weak. Especially in a video where we're supposed to be looking at a freaking missile... Raytheon need to score a big sale on that missile soon and upgrade the video encoding tools a bit! :fork:

[usa320]

I knew the AIM-9x was good, but i never knew it was that good...

Damn.

[platform389]

You have to wonder how much danger there was to the chase planes with that all aspect capability...?

"I like that one over THERE instead of the other one.."

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/ups/krista/ehsmile.gif

[Midav]

Don't even have to point the aircraft in the direction of your opponent anymore.

The new generation of air to air missiles are quite nasty!

[FozzieBear]

Don't even have to point the aircraft in the direction of your opponent anymore.

The new generation of air to air missiles are quite nasty!except getting that kind of maneuverablility in a longrange missile like an AMRAAM is impossible so planes and avionics still come into it ;)

[Midav]

Don't even have to point the aircraft in the direction of your opponent anymore.

The new generation of air to air missiles are quite nasty!except getting that kind of maneuverablility in a longrange missile like an AMRAAM is impossible so planes and avionics still come into it ;)

Never said otherwise ;)

Either way aircraft will be important, as self defense lasers are being developed. On another note, the AESA radars aboard the F/A-22 and F-35 are said to be able to knock out air to air missiles. I don't think the arc covers the entire aircraft, but believe it's at least 120 degrees. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wouldn't it be funny if air combat reverted back to the WW1 days of cannon fire? p-)

[JoaMei]

Don't even have to point the aircraft in the direction of your opponent anymore.

The new generation of air to air missiles are quite nasty!except getting that kind of maneuverablility in a longrange missile like an AMRAAM is impossible so planes and avionics still come into it ;)

Why? Next generation BVR-Missiles like Meteor have thrust vectoring too, they are a bit bigger and heavier because of their 100km+ range but can perform similar manouvers at end of flight because of their throttleable ducted rocket/ramjet (TDR).

By the way:


Friday, June 03, 2005 - European missile manufacturer MBDA plans adjustments to its Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) to make it capable of deployment on Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

The MBDA Meteor compete with Raytheon's medium range semi-active homing AIM-20 AMRAAM missile, though Meteor possesses longer range and several additional advances in technology. This move expands the Meteor's original designated market, which was the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Saab's JAS-39 Gripen fighter systems.

MBDA's move is interesting for a number of reasons, ranging from the convergence of different fighter system design philosophies to what it implicitly says about their projections re: future fighter exports....

[Midav]

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/raf/listings/rafmeteorb.jpg
http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/common/AA/images/meteor-cutout.jpg

From the sounds of it, Meteor will be quite a capable missile. Wish the US would get involved...

[Bia]

I enjoyed this video.

Thanks for sharing.

[signatory]

The IRIS-T is the market competitor to the AIM-9X. It's even more capable than the AIM-9X notably in the image seeker. It has what the aim-9x have and a bit more. However I doubt the IRIS-T will be a big export success out of other reasons. The thrust vector control, over the shoulder launch and seriously advanced image seeker is a killer nevertheless. ;)

Germany invited 5 european countries to develop the IRIS-T as the progress in AMRAAM, ASRAAM and AIM-9X development didn't answer the new findings in Russian missiles notably AA-11 Arche (after the wall came down and they got their hands on some.)

IRIS-T will be integrated on Eurofighter, JAS39 Gripen, F-16, Rafale, F4 Phantom, Tornado, and Lockheed is studying the integration of IRIS-T on the JSF from a Norwegian request. Series production is under way, 5000 missiles have so far been ordered by Germany, Spain, Sweden, Greece, Norway and Italy.

http://www.airpower.at/news02/1103_eu-missiles/iris-t2.gif
http://www.airpower.at/news02/1103_eu-missiles/iris-t2.jpg
Gripen will be armed with IRIS-T + Helmet Mounted D. during 2005.
http://www.airpower.at/news02/1103_eu-missiles/iris-t3.jpg
http://www.airpower.at/news02/1103_eu-missiles/iris-ttvc.jpg

METEOR on the other hand.. well that's another story, another day.

[sergey31]

And this is what started it all...
http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/r_73.jpg

[signatory]

Yeah R-73 :)

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/817/r73rear3ow.jpg

R-73 rear-launch

[PeterG]

The AA-11 Archer caused quite a stir some years back - i remember reading articles on mock dogfights between german MIG-29s ( after the reunification ) and other NATO fighters.The MIG-29 pilots with the helmet mounted sights and the Archer,impressed the hell out of people.I even understand that the Archer for some time,was considered the best AAM in the world.

[sergey31]

The AA-11 Archer caused quite a stir some years back - i remember reading articles on mock dogfights between german MIG-29s ( after the reunification ) and other NATO fighters.The MIG-29 pilots with the helmet mounted sights and the Archer,impressed the hell out of people.I even understand that the Archer for some time,was considered the best AAM in the world.

Still is.... R-73M2 ( R-73 RDM-2)

[signatory]

As a side note, the Swedish Defence Material Administration FMV who is in charge of Sweden's procurement of the IRIS-T explain on their website alot about the project. But it's all in swedish language. :(

However they do specifially mention the knowledge from the AA-11 Archer
as possibly the main reason for the new development.

The Gripen is the testbed and live fire tests is done at RFN (Missile Test Range North) Vidsel (largest overland test range in Europe). First shots of the METEOR will happen there aswell this year. Linked up to Kiruna space station (where NASA now launch big ballons) the airspace can be restricted in a 350x100 km box with restricted ground space in two 6000 square km boxes in each end. :)
This area is also used for very large aircombat exercises, normally in europe the exercises have to be only a few jets over land or moved to sea which is both away from base (less fly time) and rescue resources.

oops sorry for ranting... woot anyway, nice vid tho low quality and it's nice to see competing missile development from Europe, israel, USA... without being enemies :)

[signatory]

http://www.bwb.org/C1256DC00048AA8F/RepositoryFile/WTD61_IMAGES/$FILE/sensor_pod.jpg

i forgot to post this funny as hell pic of sensor tests :)

[ViktorNavorski]

The AA-11 Archer caused quite a stir some years back - i remember reading articles on mock dogfights between german MIG-29s ( after the reunification ) and other NATO fighters.The MIG-29 pilots with the helmet mounted sights and the Archer,impressed the hell out of people.I even understand that the Archer for some time,was considered the best AAM in the world.

Still is.... R-73M2 ( R-73 RDM-2)

No

[sergey31]

The AA-11 Archer caused quite a stir some years back - i remember reading articles on mock dogfights between german MIG-29s ( after the reunification ) and other NATO fighters.The MIG-29 pilots with the helmet mounted sights and the Archer,impressed the hell out of people.I even understand that the Archer for some time,was considered the best AAM in the world.

Still is.... R-73M2 ( R-73 RDM-2)

No

Yes
Faster, 50% longer range (then original model), the most sensitive IR seeker and more agile then anything else. As a matter of fact its impossible to make it any more maneuverable then it already is.

[ViktorNavorski]

The AA-11 Archer caused quite a stir some years back - i remember reading articles on mock dogfights between german MIG-29s ( after the reunification ) and other NATO fighters.The MIG-29 pilots with the helmet mounted sights and the Archer,impressed the hell out of people.I even understand that the Archer for some time,was considered the best AAM in the world.

Still is.... R-73M2 ( R-73 RDM-2)

No

Yes
Faster, 50% longer range (then original model), the most sensitive IR seeker and more agile then anything else. As a matter of fact its impossible to make it any more maneuverable then it already is.

No...it was the best, now it is one of the best. For comparision sake, the AIM-9X (though advancements in the Python series are getting there). Observational data have both at 60-90 degrees boresight with the capability of 60Gs in turn and mayber greater, snapping a shot at bandit at six o'clock.

The thing with range is the only way the Rmax for the R-73 could be 30-40km is a Mach 2.0 launch at 40,000ft and above. On top of that, the actual effective range of the missile is much, much less than that. With IR missiles, the two missile parameters that determine the maximum engagement range are aerodynamics and seeker performance. Launch speed and altitude and target aspect, speed, altitude, and thermal signiture all factor into this equation. Basically it will boil down to maximum aerodynamic and seeker performance exhibited at maximum altitude and decreasing at lower altitudes until it cuts in half or even worse at minimum altitude. Also as a general rule, when looking at the target the missile maximum engagement range will be limited by seeker performance when engaging the target from in about the target's front 60 degree arc (as in +/- 30 degrees from straight ahead, and limited by aerodynamic performance when firing at the target at its beam or tail aspect). Given that, the range need to be divided by 2, 3, or more depending on these factors. While both the R-73M2 and AIM-9X has BVR capability, realisticaly, with both targets closing the distance, would you be using a dedicated WVR missile for BVR.

Regarding speed, again, the R-73M2 speed disadvantage come at increasing distance. Russian missile designs are somewhat superior to its Western counterparts not at long range, but at short range. Generally, R-73M2 have a higher impulse motors. After burnout their higher drag causes them to decelerate faster than the AIM-9X which can lead to an advantage for the AIM-9X at long range (but that is already establish as irrelevent since in actual combat, those missiles won't be use in BVR engagement). Initially R-73M2 accelerate up to higher speeds quicker. It makes sense that the TVC of the R-73M2 will help it in a short range, off-boresight crossing engagement to snap over instead of flying a conventional pursuit trajectory.

[JoaMei]

The AA-11 Archer caused quite a stir some years back - i remember reading articles on mock dogfights between german MIG-29s ( after the reunification ) and other NATO fighters.The MIG-29 pilots with the helmet mounted sights and the Archer,impressed the hell out of people.I even understand that the Archer for some time,was considered the best AAM in the world.

Still is.... R-73M2 ( R-73 RDM-2)

No

Yes
Faster, 50% longer range (then original model), the most sensitive IR seeker and more agile then anything else. As a matter of fact its impossible to make it any more maneuverable then it already is.

No...it was the best, now it is one of the best. For comparision sake, the AIM-9X (though advancements in the Python series are getting there). Observational data have both at 60-90 degrees boresight with the capability of 60Gs in turn and mayber greater, snapping a shot at bandit at six o'clock.

The thing with range is the only way the Rmax for the R-73 could be 30-40km is a Mach 2.0 launch at 40,000ft and above. On top of that, the actual effective range of the missile is much, much less than that. With IR missiles, the two missile parameters that determine the maximum engagement range are aerodynamics and seeker performance. Launch speed and altitude and target aspect, speed, altitude, and thermal signiture all factor into this equation. Basically it will boil down to maximum aerodynamic and seeker performance exhibited at maximum altitude and decreasing at lower altitudes until it cuts in half or even worse at minimum altitude. Also as a general rule, when looking at the target the missile maximum engagement range will be limited by seeker performance when engaging the target from in about the target's front 60 degree arc (as in +/- 30 degrees from straight ahead, and limited by aerodynamic performance when firing at the target at its beam or tail aspect). Given that, the range need to be divided by 2, 3, or more depending on these factors. While both the R-73M2 and AIM-9X has BVR capability, realisticaly, with both targets closing the distance, would you be using a dedicated WVR missile for BVR.

Regarding speed, again, the R-73M2 speed disadvantage come at increasing distance. Russian missile designs are somewhat superior to its Western counterparts not at long range, but at short range. Generally, R-73M2 have a higher impulse motors. After burnout their higher drag causes them to decelerate faster than the AIM-9X which can lead to an advantage for the AIM-9X at long range (but that is already establish as irrelevent since in actual combat, those missiles won't be use in BVR engagement). Initially R-73M2 accelerate up to higher speeds quicker. It makes sense that the TVC of the R-73M2 will help it in a short range, off-boresight crossing engagement to snap over instead of flying a conventional pursuit trajectory.

I have to disagree, with new lock on after launch capabilities you can fire the missile even when the target is out of seeker range. Guidance to the Target is made by inertial and remote control via Radar. Basically the same Way the AAMRAM works, with the difference instead of the radar of the missile the IR-seeker of the missile takes over in the end.

[sferrin]

The ESSM coming out of a VLS silo is pretty impressive too. Too bad they don't make it in an air-to-air version with an AMRAAM seeker. 30 or so miles from the ground should go pretty far with an air launch.

[sferrin]

And this is what started it all...
http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/r_73.jpg

Only from lack of money :P

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-95.html

[AlexNenadic]

One thing that strikes me as funny is the "most sensitive seeker" claim. It does you no good to have a missile that'll go after just about anything, does it? The idea is to develop a seeker with the ability to ignore anything other than the airplane it is targeting. There are many approaches a designer could take. But that is not the same as "the most sensitive", is it?

These missile comparisons always amuse me greatly. No one here knows the real ranges or performance characteristics. I don't either, in case you are wondering.

But by all means, continue. :P

[ViktorNavorski]

And this is what started it all...
http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/r_73.jpg

Only from lack of money :P

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-95.html

Python IV was the first SRM development to respond to the surprise of AA-11 and just missed being the US solution as well. It was doomed from the day it was deem incompatibe with the internal carriage of the F/A-22 during the AIM-9X Cost and Operational Effectiveness Analysis (COEA). There was a groundswell in the USAF community that asked for Python IV as an interim solution. The way the procurement process works though would mean the R&D funding for AIM-9X would have to be tapped and your interim solution would be the only solution, so the US lived for years with second best weapon after decades of always being a step ahead in MRM and SRM weapons vis a vis the Soviet Union. This was primarily due to service rivalry and self-centered weapons laboratory stances that virtually stopped SRM progress (at least that leading to a fielded solution) after AIM/ACEVAL where two advanced seekers (one for each service solution) were actually flown. The urban legend has it the Soviet Union got the message and patterned AA-11 after the Navy design AIM-95 Agile. True or not, it did spark a crash program in the Soviet Union to respond to what they thought the US was developing. Contacts with former Soviet pilot reveal they were convinced the West did develop something in the dark world that would blow the AA-11 away. In the end, they were surprise that service rivalry ended up producing nothing more than AIM-9M, only an incremental improvement over AIM-9L and certainly no competion for AA-11. The Navy and Air Force miss out greatly on the Agile.


One thing that strikes me as funny is the "most sensitive seeker" claim. It does you no good to have a missile that'll go after just about anything, does it? The idea is to develop a seeker with the ability to ignore anything other than the airplane it is targeting. There are many approaches a designer could take. But that is not the same as "the most sensitive", is it?

These missile comparisons always amuse me greatly. No one here knows the real ranges or performance characteristics. I don't either, in case you are wondering.

But by all means, continue. :P

Word!

The AA-11 is better overall than the AIM-9M, but are roughly equivalent in many ways including things like warhead, maximum engagement range against a target in the tail aspect, and manuverability. The AIM-9X will essentially be equivalent in the remaining performance areas, such as off-boresight seeker ability and seeker range. Yes, there will be certain parameters where one missile or the other will have slightly better numbers, but at that point the engagement outcome will more likely be scenario-dependent than missile-dependent.

[Cougar101]

And this is what started it all...
http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/r_73.jpg

AA-11 is the greatest AA missile, even with the AIM9X. Better overall and max G turn, 13-14G i think...

but, the Sidewinder X got a must, a fighter is able to shoot an ennemy above him of 60 degres, limit of the ACM 60 radar mode on much radars of USAF.

On a 2 circle dogfight, a fighter equiped with an AIM9X got the advantage against the AA-11, but the ennemy is a dangerous tread !

[sergey31]

R-73M2 ( R-73 RDM-2): At range of 40km it's probably the longest "short" range AA missile. M2 is reportedly max speed is mach 4, that's nearly twice the speed of any other short range AA-M, also at 33g force is pretty much impossible to make anything that can do better. It said that if to increase higher G force would result in bending the missile tube in half. So, I think in terms of performance it's probably the end of short range missile technology; I can't comprehend anything anymore more advanced.

BTW R-73M2 has 90 dg coverage with helmet mounted sight. That’s 30 dg more then Sidewinder.

[JoaMei]

And this is what started it all...
http://www.enemyforces.com/missiles/r_73.jpg

AA-11 is the greatest AA missile, even with the AIM9X. Better overall and max G turn, 13-14G i think...

but, the Sidewinder X got a must, a fighter is able to shoot an ennemy above him of 60 degres, limit of the ACM 60 radar mode on much radars of USAF.

On a 2 circle dogfight, a fighter equiped with an AIM9X got the advantage against the AA-11, but the ennemy is a dangerous tread !

Nope, since IRIS-T both are obsolete. p-)

[ViktorNavorski]

R-73 RDM2, AIM-9X and IRIS-T all have a 60/80-90 degrees sensor arc regardless of LOAL. All can acquire a target within a sixty degree cone. Once the target has been acquired, it can maintain tracking on a target up to ninety degrees off the weapon's nose. This helps the weapon maintain sight of the target when turning the corner as a target tries to generate angle rate in close.

IRIS-T originally was the MoU for Family of Weapons which called for the UK led ASRAAM in conjunction with a German developed seeker. The US was also part of that MOU and they honored it until the German ran into technical and resultant funding issues. US AIM-9X development postdated that program and pretty much the same research data went into both the development of the IRIS-T and AIM-9X


AA-11 is the greatest AA missile, even with the AIM9X. Better overall and max G turn, 13-14G i think...

but, the Sidewinder X got a must, a fighter is able to shoot an ennemy above him of 60 degres, limit of the ACM 60 radar mode on much radars of USAF.

On a 2 circle dogfight, a fighter equiped with an AIM9X got the advantage against the AA-11, but the ennemy is a dangerous tread !

Just head down to Elmendorf, the F-15 pilots will likely tell you they prefer the AIM-9X and JHMCS combo over the AA-11 anyday, they did worked up the German's MiG-29s with AA-11 pretty good in Key West in 2003.

[JoaMei]

R-73 RDM2, AIM-9X and IRIS-T all have a 60/80-90 degrees sensor arc regardless of LOAL. All can acquire a target within a sixty degree cone. Once the target has been acquired, it can maintain tracking on a target up to ninety degrees off the weapon's nose. This helps the weapon maintain sight of the target when turning the corner as a target tries to generate angle rate in close.

IRIS-T originally was the MoU for Family of Weapons which called for the UK led ASRAAM in conjunction with a German developed seeker. The US was also part of that MOU and they honored it until the German ran into technical and resultant funding issues. US AIM-9X development postdated that program and pretty much the same research data went into both the development of the IRIS-T and AIM-9X


AA-11 is the greatest AA missile, even with the AIM9X. Better overall and max G turn, 13-14G i think...

but, the Sidewinder X got a must, a fighter is able to shoot an ennemy above him of 60 degres, limit of the ACM 60 radar mode on much radars of USAF.

On a 2 circle dogfight, a fighter equiped with an AIM9X got the advantage against the AA-11, but the ennemy is a dangerous tread !

Just head down to Elmendorf, the F-15 pilots will likely tell you they prefer the AIM-9X and JHMCS combo over the AA-11 anyday, they did worked up the German's MiG-29s with AA-11 pretty good in Key West in 2003.

Huh? No, Germany pulled out of the project after it became clear that ASRAAM will not have the needed performance and a pimped Sidewinder neither.

You are stating technical and funding issues were the reason for a german pullout?

Having an Project all alone is much more expensive AND technologically demanding....

[Midav]

I wonder what greater capability one needs and how it can be achieved?

With the new generation missiles is just comes down to who can look faster, imo. Talk about whiplash p-)

[sergey31]

R-73 RDM2, AIM-9X and IRIS-T all have a 60/80-90 degrees sensor arc regardless of LOAL. All can acquire a target within a sixty degree cone. Once the target has been acquired, it can maintain tracking on a target up to ninety degrees off the weapon's nose. This helps the weapon maintain sight of the target when turning the corner as a target tries to generate angle rate in close.

IRIS-T originally was the MoU for Family of Weapons which called for the UK led ASRAAM in conjunction with a German developed seeker. The US was also part of that MOU and they honored it until the German ran into technical and resultant funding issues. US AIM-9X development postdated that program and pretty much the same research data went into both the development of the IRIS-T and AIM-9X


AA-11 is the greatest AA missile, even with the AIM9X. Better overall and max G turn, 13-14G i think...

but, the Sidewinder X got a must, a fighter is able to shoot an ennemy above him of 60 degres, limit of the ACM 60 radar mode on much radars of USAF.

On a 2 circle dogfight, a fighter equiped with an AIM9X got the advantage against the AA-11, but the ennemy is a dangerous tread !

Just head down to Elmendorf, the F-15 pilots will likely tell you they prefer the AIM-9X and JHMCS combo over the AA-11 anyday, they did worked up the German's MiG-29s with AA-11 pretty good in Key West in 2003.

American pilots never did encounter R-73 RDM2 even in training exercises, Germany did not posses them when the training was conducted.

[ViktorNavorski]

American pilots never did encounter R-73 RDM2 even in training exercises, Germany did not posses them when the training was conducted.

Good for you, leave Cougar101 and his AA-11/R-73 pride alone, there are plenty of posts for the -RDM2 to whore.