Apache going to work..

[Shake n Bake]

saw this over at a couple of other sites

http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi.torrent

[Vance]

Jesus!

[ST4]

Which conflict is this video from? Operation Iraqi Freedom?

[Shake n Bake]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html


The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

[mustamato]

They look pretty unarmed to me... :|

[Hadoken]

Scary stuff.

:|

Did the second fellow get his jacket/coat stuck on the tractor? Poor guy.

[AFG]

that part was probably

just like wat happened to this video right here. they didnt mention he had a gun him, but someone said he was armed.


http://drlego.warbucket.com/videos/iraqiwar.wmv

and the forums where they discussed about the video.

http://forums.firearmsmod.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61455

[Shake n Bake]

They look pretty unarmed to me... :|


Did the second fellow get his jacket/coat stuck on the tractor? Poor guy


hmmmmm What do think that was?? Looked like a tube shaped object wrapped in cloth to me...

[AFACadet]

That's a good reminder that even for pilots of high tech aircraft, war can still be close and personal.


These guys were tasked to do a job, and I have a feeling that they were not rejoicing after they landed.

[mustamato]

Did the second fellow get his jacket/coat stuck on the tractor? Poor guy

hmmmmm What do think that was?? Looked like a tube shaped object wrapped in cloth to me...

... but not to me. To me they look very very unarmed. And killing unarmed people, even though they might be "slightly possible insurgents because they were driving away from a battle" (which even I would do I if was a bystander) feels slightly as a warcrime to me. But if they now saw a "weapon" then what the hell, but atleast I couldn´t see one.

[AFACadet]

mustamato,

Were you there, in the cockpit, with the crew that night?

Did you see what happened before the clip started?

Did you have the vastly better situational awareness the pilot and gunner had that night as opposed to simply seeing a short, grainy, reduced quality internet clip?


War = killing people who are a threat or a possible/future threat

[HumanShield]

yea man, they get a few seconds to react to the situation. Yet you can sit here forever on these forums and criticize them for it. :bash:

[mustamato]

mustamato,

Were you there, in the cockpit, with the crew that night? Did you see what happened before the clip started? Did you have the vastly better situational awareness the pilot and gunner had that night as opposed to simply seeing a short, grainy, reduced quality internet clip? War = killing people who are a threat or a possible/future threat

1.) No I wasn´t there. But I am here now.

2.) No, so I didn´t see americans being shot at earlier which pissed me of either and blurred my judgment, when I started to watch the clip I was neutral.

3.) The pilots probably saw what we saw because it seems to be in the middle of the night? But yes, the story probably didn´t start with the clip and the pilots might have seen something "slightly larger than a rifle". And as I said, then it´s pretty much what the hell...

4.) Yeah war´s a bitch, but the US mission is not to be the main bitch but the main provider of freedom, justice and stuff like that to the Iraqi people.

5.) I am sorry but killing possibly future threats is a major war crime. If you don´t think so then I guess that you also think that the german killings of millions of "future threats" during the second world war was okay. If not, then you are a hypocrite.

6.) And as a sidenote. I guess these kinds of clips is a big "OH FOKKING COOL YEAAAH, BOMB THE **** OF THOSE RAGHEADS" to people that actually were 100% positive no matter what to the second gulf war and now still are were positive to US staying there. To us that had and still has a little more sceptical approach to war in general, which is pretty much the wast majority of the world, clips like these are just contraproductive and I don´t understand why they are even released. It´s not some Internet computer geek that are releasing these but US officials as propaganda of how well things are going.

[Merik]

Great video, but just something to point out that this is why we have Apaches getting shot down, cause they get their thumbs stuck up their asses and hover in a hostile area in a hostile situation. Just a thought.

[spoonman]

i understand this is a neutered clip, apparently the guys threw an RPG into the field right before it happened. as such they were still a threat, if one pulled another RPG from the truck you wouldn't be bitching.

[AFACadet]

[quteo]1.) No I wasn´t there. But I am here now. [/quote]

Does not really make any sense, I don't understand what you are trying to say.


2.) No, so I didn´t see americans being shot at earlier which pissed me of either and blurred my judgment, when I started to watch the clip I was neutral.

No, you were already predisposed against anything like this. You never even attempted to see it as 'neutral.'


3.) The pilots probably saw what we saw because it seems to be in the middle of the night? But yes, the story probably didn´t start with the clip and the pilots might have seen something "slightly larger than a rifle". And as I said, then it´s pretty much what the hell...

The pilot and gunner saw a heck of a lot more than we did.

1. There was prior intel they would find insurgents in the area
2. They were not the only US armed forces component there. Information is constantly shown between the different forces.
3. Their avionics are much better than what was shown on the clip. It is much more clear and detailed, and they have more avionics to use in situations like this.


4.) Yeah war´s a bitch, but the US mission is not to be the main bitch but the main provider of freedom, justice and stuff like that to the Iraqi people.

And to keep the Iraqi people free, the insurgetns killing both allied AND freedom loving Iraqis need to drop their weapons or die. It was clear what these guys picked.


5.) I am sorry but killing possibly future threats is a major war crime. If you don´t think so then I guess that you also think that the german killings of millions of "future threats" during the second world war was okay. If not, then you are a hypocrite.

You know NOTHING about war then.

Ok, so you are in happy land on a combat mission. In the distance you see guys moving around RPGs and PRKs, and AK-47s. These are the weapons they will later try to kill you with.

I'm sure you would sit there on your hands and let them continue to transport the weapons.

In fact, I would reccomend you wave and give them some flowers to spread goodwill.

Common knowledge makes us know that their hearts will become large and they will warmly embrace your extended hand...


No, you would kill them on the spot because its either you or them, and unless you have no desire to live, your life is vastly more important than the person who is, or will kill you in the future.

I don't care what country you are from, that is how it will be.

And it is WELL within the "rules of war."


I guess these kinds of clips is a big "OH FOKKING COOL YEAAAH, BOMB THE **** OF THOSE RAGHEADS" to people that actually were 100% positive no matter what to the second gulf war and now still are were positive to US staying there.

Yup, good job putting words into people's mouths.

[Seraphim]

Whoa thats badass

[Shake n Bake]

There goes our buddy mustamato spurting off his self righteous drivel again. American war crimes this, Bush is hitler that..

Your **** is tedious, Man...

[exocet]

I saw the longer clip on ABC news and as a previous poster said, this downloadable clip is a lot shorter than the actual clip. The one shown on the news showed a guy drive up in his pickup truck, get out with an RPG or missile launcher and run over into the field and drop it. Then the tractor showed up. Thats when the shooting began.

[AirZone]

NICEEEEEEEEEEEEE....a pretty ouchy but no mercy to terrorists ! :bash:

[Herrmannek]

I saw the longer clip on ABC news and as a previous poster said, this downloadable clip is a lot shorter than the actual clip. The one shown on the news showed a guy drive up in his pickup truck, get out with an RPG or missile launcher and run over into the field and drop it. Then the tractor showed up. Thats when the shooting began.

What I see is guy working on field with his tractor(look at device attached to tractor's back and moved soil on right site and on the back after the tractor and non touched on left and in front of tractor) so guy on tractor with great probability wasn't insurgent and I'm sure he wasn't taking part in earlier mentioned nearby military actions b/c he was working on his field....Few guys(maybe insurgents) who broke/stoped/stucked their truck or car next to him asked him for help(My parents car was few times taken out from dithch,snow or mud when stucked, by nearby farmers with their tractors)...he went to se what is needed when guy who asked that farmer for help went to other site of tractor maybe for rope or other rag looking thing. I've seen lots of such scenes in my life but without shooting&killing at the end....It looks that farmer got his bullets for free this time.... so RIP

[AirZone]

better safe than sorry :|

[George W. Bush]

alright! hooah!

[Herrmannek]

better safe than sorry :|

Better sorry than regret....

[scoone]

That's war. :(

[0#256]

I saw the longer clip on ABC news and as a previous poster said, this downloadable clip is a lot shorter than the actual clip. The one shown on the news showed a guy drive up in his pickup truck, get out with an RPG or missile launcher and run over into the field and drop it. Then the tractor showed up. Thats when the shooting began.

That dropped RPG might be the reason for engagement but still it does not justify the slaughter of that last wounded man. Even geneva convension determs that!

[BamaJeeper]

That dropped RPG might be the reason for engagement but still it does not justify the slaughter of that last wounded man. Even geneva convension determs that!

Please post us the section of the Geneva Convention that you are talking about.

The man may have been wounded, but he did not surrender. The Geneva Convention addresses the treatment of prisoners of war. The Hague Convention does not address killing enemy soldiers, whether resisting or wounded.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

[Rantanplan]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/newbie3.jpg

[hood]

What I want to know is how these videos are getting out. Is there no security around these vehicles?

[0#256]

That dropped RPG might be the reason for engagement but still it does not justify the slaughter of that last wounded man. Even geneva convension determs that!

Please post us the section of the Geneva Convention that you are talking about.

The man may have been wounded, but he did not surrender. The Geneva Convention addresses the treatment of prisoners of war. The Hague Convention does not address killing enemy soldiers, whether resisting or wounded.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Now, read carefully.


Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field

CHAPTER I
GENERAL PROVISIONS

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, ***, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person. in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment ****ounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

You should have studied Geneva Convetion better before coming here and starting to rave about it.

Everybody should know that I have nothing against Americans nor it's allies.
If you fight in war, you should "play it by the book" even though the opposing force was not.

[TALOS]

That dropped RPG might be the reason for engagement but still it does not justify the slaughter of that last wounded man. Even geneva convension determs that!

Please post us the section of the Geneva Convention that you are talking about.

The man may have been wounded, but he did not surrender. The Geneva Convention addresses the treatment of prisoners of war. The Hague Convention does not address killing enemy soldiers, whether resisting or wounded.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Now, read carefully.


Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field

CHAPTER I
GENERAL PROVISIONS

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, ***, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person. in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment ****ounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

You should have studied Geneva Convetion better before coming here and starting to rave about it.

Everybody should know that I have nothing against Americans nor it's allies.
If you fight in war, you should "play it by the book" even though the opposing force was not.

"The wounded and sick should be collected and cared for" I agree with you here that the wounded should be cared for if possible, but, under the circumstances it might be viewed a little differently if you consider the extreme risk it would constitute for the apache crew to sit down and render aid to the wounded man. Not to be a smart ass, but that wouldnt make any sense.
Also, I am by no means claiming to be well versed in the statutes of the Geneva convention, but, does that rule not apply only after the engagement has ended and the area has been secured? During an engagement you wouldnt collect and care for the enemy, and by the ROE that I "assume" they know well enough, they obviously were still considered engaged.
Just my thoughts, I am not a Lawyer.

[Marmot1]

saw this over at a couple of other sites

30mm cannon ain't nothing to f----- with (http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi.torrent)


right click and save

This server is not working do you have another link to it?

[Upfrontreporting]

The link is dead, any other links on the net?

[0#256]

"The wounded and sick should be collected and cared for" I agree with you here that the wounded should be cared for if possible, but, under the circumstances it might be viewed a little differently if you consider the extreme risk it would constitute for the apache crew to sit down and render aid to the wounded man. Not to be a smart ass, but that wouldnt make any sense.
Also, I am by no means claiming to be well versed in the statutes of the Geneva convention, but, does that rule not apply only after the engagement has ended and the area has been secured? During an engagement you wouldnt collect and care for the enemy, and by the ROE that I "assume" they know well enough, they obviously were still considered engaged.
Just my thoughts, I am not a Lawyer.
I agree with you on the crew landing. That would just be playing stupid.

The Geneva convension aplies all the time in the war zone. Neither the situation has ended or not. Wounded soldiers or civils has to be treated when there is slightest possibility to do so.

The gunner states "He's wounded" and the pilot responds "Hit him". I think it was a wrong decision to say "go" for the gunner, but the combat pressure just might have gave the pilot wrong ideas about the situation.

[hood]

http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi.torrent


Is there a full version around somewhere? I didn't see the original one that was posted here, but this one doesn't show them putting that tube in the field...

[Herrmannek]

http://staff.washington.edu/bfiguero/Movies/apache.mpg

Is there a full version around somewhere? I didn't see the original one that was posted here, but this one doesn't show them putting that tube in the field...
first version here also didn't have that part

[0#256]

I uploaded the video on my server, so here is the link:
www.the-deep.net/other/224Helicopter_Kills.mpeg

[Herrmannek]

And still no one explained why they shot farmer who obviously was working on his field...

[Macs.]

For fun.

[TALOS]

"The wounded and sick should be collected and cared for" I agree with you here that the wounded should be cared for if possible, but, under the circumstances it might be viewed a little differently if you consider the extreme risk it would constitute for the apache crew to sit down and render aid to the wounded man. Not to be a smart ass, but that wouldnt make any sense.
Also, I am by no means claiming to be well versed in the statutes of the Geneva convention, but, does that rule not apply only after the engagement has ended and the area has been secured? During an engagement you wouldnt collect and care for the enemy, and by the ROE that I "assume" they know well enough, they obviously were still considered engaged.
Just my thoughts, I am not a Lawyer.
I agree with you on the crew landing. That would just be playing stupid.

The Geneva convension aplies all the time in the war zone. Neither the situation has ended or not. Wounded soldiers or civils has to be treated when there is slightest possibility to do so.

The gunner states "He's wounded" and the pilot responds "Hit him". I think it was a wrong decision to say "go" for the gunner, but the combat pressure just might have gave the pilot wrong ideas about the situation.
Ok Bergman, thx for the reply, I have never been in combat but as a coxswain in the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary I know we only had a few moments to make decisions that were critiqued later by others, fortunately my decisions never factored around killing anyone, mine were to try and save people.
Still I figure they had just seconds to make their decisions and MAY have felt better to finish all of them. I wasnt there so I cant really say.

[Genesis]

I don't know if this one has been posted here yet but everyone was mentioning a full version of the video. This link is to a 36 meg version that is 3:30 seconds long. If the link doesn't work I have it stored so just let me know if anyone wants me to upload it somewhere.


http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi.torrent

[Upfrontreporting]

The download link you have provided, isn't working right it is extremely slow.

Where did you get this version?

[Genesis]

I got the link from this thread on another forum:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=28417

I don't have a site that can host the file so if anyone does let me know and I can upload my version.

[Vance]

Canadian gun nuts. LOL

[garyfanclub]

That video is bad ass but it's almost perverse how impersonal killing has become. I'm no hippie or anything but it looks a lot like one of those computer games you can buy these days.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Still I figure they had just seconds to make their decisions and MAY have felt better to finish all of them. I wasnt there so I cant really say.

seconds? I doubt he could crawl away from a helicopter. I guess they had as much time as they had fuel left.

[Marmot1]

Well killing wounded is war crime for me an this guy was crawling becouse he was hit... no mather if he was civilian or insurgent it's still war crime...

[hood]

Did you think those apache pilots were only interested in wounding him when they shot 30mm explosive rounds at him? Their mission was to kill everyone at that location, and they did their job. It's not like they killed the guy after he was in a jail cell.

Here's a local copy of the full video that I converted to divx so it's 1/3rd the size.

http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi.torrent

[Vance]

Well killing wounded is war crime for me an this guy was crawling becouse he was hit... no mather if he was civilian or insurgent it's still war crime...
What if you wound a man and he starts crawling to his gun to shoot at you? Is that still a war crime?

[Mr. Nielsen]

Did you think those apache pilots were only interested in wounding him when they shot 30mm explosive rounds at him? Their mission was to kill everyone at that location, and they did their job. It's not like they killed the guy after he was in a jail cell.

One more or less death insurgent doesn't matter much. What's matter is intelligence, and that should have been enough reason in itself to go out and pick up the wounded guy. That is presuming they indeed were insurgents and not civilians.

[Herrmannek]

Well killing wounded is war crime for me an this guy was crawling becouse he was hit... no mather if he was civilian or insurgent it's still war crime...
What if you wound a man and he starts crawling to his gun to shoot at you? Is that still a war crime?
I didn't seen any AA nearby, he wasn't trying to escape or charge, just wanted to get out from underneath of hihgly damaged and probably burning truck...This wasn't battle face to face, those guys were in middle of nowhere at least one kilometr from choper...For me it was just brainless action of adrenaline pumped soldiers or missed "act of mercy"...

[Vance]

Well killing wounded is war crime for me an this guy was crawling becouse he was hit... no mather if he was civilian or insurgent it's still war crime...
What if you wound a man and he starts crawling to his gun to shoot at you? Is that still a war crime?
I didn't seen any AA nearby, he wasn't trying to escape or charge, just wanted to get out from underneath of hihgly damaged and probably burning truck...This wasn't battle face to face, those guys were in middle of nowhere at least one kilometr from choper...For me it was just brainless action of adrenaline pumped soldiers or missed "act of mercy"...
I wasn't talking about that incident, I was just giving a random example.


And, to answer the question about the ''farmer''....he was in on it. Dude #1 (Who planted the gun in the field) runs over to the tractor, the farmer stops and gets out, then Dude #1 proceeds to go around to the other side of the vehicle. He then leans in on the tractor and starts taking something out. I'm betting a 100 bucks those were more weapons. Then, the farmer just casually walks away from his tractor, without a care in the world. (Doesn't that seem odd?) You can see Dude #1 take something out of the tractor before he gets blown to bits.

[TALOS]

Still I figure they had just seconds to make their decisions and MAY have felt better to finish all of them. I wasnt there so I cant really say.

seconds? I doubt he could crawl away from a helicopter. I guess they had as much time as they had fuel left.
You know, it's easy for us armchair Generals to all sit around and pick apart what happens in tense combat situations, and yes, that would be an intense situation for those guys. They dont have a whole lot of time to make decisions contrary to what you may believe. As much time as they have fuel?... would you expect them to sit there and wait for the guy to crawl away or maybe to a weapon? I guess you are suggesting they leave him bleed to death instead b/c there aint no way they are gonna land that thing and run over to render aid.
Their job is to eliminate the enemy and they did, whether they should have or not, whether it is lawful by geneva convention or not will be decided by others. I dont know if what they did was right but I am not gonna smugly sit and pretend like I would have done it better, are you?

[Groove]

Interesting video. But finnishing the last wounded guy was crime. Its funny someone wrote "and what if this guy was crawling to his weapon?" Well if his weapon wasnt any SAM which was ready of-the-picture then he shouldnt be killed.

But hey its war - the one have AK-47 and RPGs and the other have 30 mm HE bursts coming from the dark night.

Groove

[Seraphim]

This is how I see it.

There was a man in the far right truck in the driver seat. Crosshairs were aimed at him, pilot tells the gunner to aim a little in front of the driver seat and which he fired and killed the driver and the wounded man who crawled to the front of the truck.

[TALOS]

the one have AK-47 and RPGs and the other have 30 mm HE bursts coming from the dark night.

Groove
You and many others believe it was a crime and Im not tryin to say it wasnt, I wasnt there, but you are aware that it is RPG's that have been bringing helo's down right?

[Herrmannek]

And, to answer the question about the ''farmer''....he was in on it. Dude #1 (Who planted the gun in the field) walks up to the tractor, the farmer stops and gets out, then Dude #1 proceeds to go around to the other side of the vehicle. He then leans in on the tractor and starts taking something out. I'm betting a 100 bucks those were more weapons. Then, the farmer just casually walks away from his tractor, without a care in the world. Now...that seems a little odd.
Hey if that farmer was with them why he was harrowing that field? You ussualy don't do such things when you are on war path...and the second guy didn't took waepon from tractor...take a close look it was some kind of rag or material sheet...I don't try to accuse anybody...but you must admit that scene looks strange....

[Vance]

And, to answer the question about the ''farmer''....he was in on it. Dude #1 (Who planted the gun in the field) walks up to the tractor, the farmer stops and gets out, then Dude #1 proceeds to go around to the other side of the vehicle. He then leans in on the tractor and starts taking something out. I'm betting a 100 bucks those were more weapons. Then, the farmer just casually walks away from his tractor, without a care in the world. Now...that seems a little odd.
Hey if that farmer was with them why he was harrowing that field? You ussualy don't do such things when you are on war path...and the second guy didn't took waepon from tractor...take a close look it was some kind of rag or material sheet...I don't try to accuse anybody...but you must admit that scene looks strange....
It easily could of been a SAM or RPG covered in a sheet. It's obvious that these guys planned their actions to be as natural as possible, as to avoid suspicion to anyone around them. Little did they know that they were being watched, very well.

[Herrmannek]

It easily could of been a SAM or RPG covered in a sheet. It's obvious that these guys planned their actions to be as natural as possible, as to avoid suspicion to anyone around them. Little did they know that they were being watched, very well.

Don't think that keeping sam's esspecialy covered with sheet close to working engine compartment is good thing...and SAM's and RPG's are long weapons so it would be hard and unefective way of hiding them in that place
EDIT
I must admit that second guy probably took something hard from tractor covered with sheet it felt on the ground when he took that sheet off....hmmmm...?

[TALOS]

And, to answer the question about the ''farmer''....he was in on it. Dude #1 (Who planted the gun in the field) walks up to the tractor, the farmer stops and gets out, then Dude #1 proceeds to go around to the other side of the vehicle. He then leans in on the tractor and starts taking something out. I'm betting a 100 bucks those were more weapons. Then, the farmer just casually walks away from his tractor, without a care in the world. Now...that seems a little odd.
Hey if that farmer was with them why he was harrowing that field? You ussualy don't do such things when you are on war path...and the second guy didn't took waepon from tractor...take a close look it was some kind of rag or material sheet...I don't try to accuse anybody...but you must admit that scene looks strange....
Im sorry, people keep sayin he was workin in the field, but I obviously dont have as long of a video b/c I certainly didnt see anyone workin a field... because he drives up in a tractor doesnt mean hes working and how many peeps work their fields at night especially when there are curfews all over the place.?

[Seraphim]

because he drives up in a tractor doesnt mean hes working and how many peeps work their fields at night especially when there are curfews all over the place.?


Good catch

[Herrmannek]

Im sorry, people keep sayin he was workin in the field, but I obviously dont have as long of a video b/c I certainly didnt see anyone workin a field... because he drives up in a tractor doesnt mean hes working and how many peeps work their fields at night especially when there are curfews all over the place.?

I'm sure he is harrowing ground with that tractor, take a look at right site of the tractor and its back you will see moved soil in some sort of wery wide circles on the left and in front soil is flat....

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/heli.jpg

Who said it was night?

[usa320]

1. THe guys were clearly insurgents, clearly armed with RPG's or SA-7's.

2. They were clearly not civilians farm workers unless its customary in iraq to work in the fields in the dark. Not to mention that if they were civilians we would have heard about it on CNN.

3. As hood said, their job was to kill these guys, not wound them. Its either they killed them then, or they let them get away to place some IED's the next morning and wipe out American ground forces.

[usa320]

I'm sure he is harrowing ground with that tractor, take a look at right site of the tractor and its back you will see moved soil

Look to the left of that soil and you will see an individual carrying what appears to be an assault rifle.

[AFACadet]

Who said it was night?

A good indication is that these missions are almost always flown at night. In addition, the AH-64 would be in CLEAR sight if it was during the day.

To top it all off and seal it up; from the news article:


Nighttime Scene

[Herrmannek]

I'm sure he is harrowing ground with that tractor, take a look at right site of the tractor and its back you will see moved soil

Look to the left of that soil and you will see an individual carrying what appears to be an assault rifle.

They have bare hands after they droped two things onto the field....you can see that when they run to and from the tractor...

@ AFACAdet
Maybe they made the same asumption ass you...its infrared so it is nightshot, but I don't see guys walking carefuly and having troubles with finding things in darkness...

[AFACadet]

Herrmannek,

No, its simply that your trying WAY to hard to downplay this event. You have your own preconcieved ideas and will not change them tell your grave.


By your making this attack as negitive as possible, it gives you a feeling your ideas about the US and the US forces in Iraq are in fact correct. You need to hold on to those ideas you have of this clip in order to continue feeling vindicated.



And don't even start with anything else, because you know that in the end, the above is true. You know it, but just won't come out and say it.

[Herrmannek]

Herrmannek,

No, its simply that your trying WAY to hard to downplay this event. You have your own preconcieved ideas and will not change them tell your grave.


By your making this attack as negitive as possible, it gives you a feeling your ideas about the US and the US forces in Iraq are in fact correct. You need to hold on to those ideas you have of this clip in order to continue feeling vindicated.



And don't even start with anything else, because you know that in the end, the above is true. You know it, but just won't come out and say it.

Whow...Hold your horses AFACadet :)...I'dont accuse thise soldiers nor think that they are murders nor think that USA is axis of devil... I'm only saying that:

-Whole scene looks wery strange
-First 2 guys, realy droped some things in the field
-Guy on tractor was working or at least was pretending he is working
-Second guy took from tractor hard thing covered with sheet, one second before he died...
-Decision about killing wounded was wrong and probably against geneva convention, but probably was effect of adrenaline,stress, or missed "act of mercy"
-We aren't sure if it was day or night, becuause nothing clearly implicates one of them. Thermal vision is also used at day time as it have few great advantages, it works vell at bad weather, you can see hiding people and objects...and on a "clock" in uper left corner below TADS is 16:27:53 :)

[George W. Bush]

Shrill outcries like "OMG they are war criminals" aside..

The first burst shot as the guy is running to the tractor.. It has a different effect than the other 4 bursts shot.

Was the gunner using AP instead of HE? I didn't ever see dust fly up off the ground. You could hear the cannon and see the counter lose 20 rounds but couldn't see the shots hit. LOL.. someone explain.

As the guy gets to the tractor after hearing the cannon, he casually looks around like nothing is happening. Again, WTF?

[Macs.]

Look to the left of that soil and you will see an individual carrying what appears to be an assault rifle.

1. THe guys were clearly insurgents, clearly armed with RPG's or SA-7's

Where do you see this weapons ?!?

[Midav]

Odd. I just get audio. No video.

[TALOS]

and on a "clock" in uper left corner below TADS is 16:27:53 :)
That could be Zulu time considering its in an american helo in a foreign country couldn't it?

[AFACadet]

Shrill outcries like "OMG they are war criminals" aside..

The first burst shot as the guy is running to the tractor.. It has a different effect than the other 4 bursts shot.

Was the gunner using AP instead of HE? I didn't ever see dust fly up off the ground. You could hear the cannon and see the counter lose 20 rounds but couldn't see the shots hit. LOL.. someone explain.

As the guy gets to the tractor after hearing the cannon, he casually looks around like nothing is happening. Again, WTF?

The pilot says the laser range finder is on the wrong setting. The gunner say f***, then range auto, then he fires again and you see the effects.

The first bust went out a couple miles because you can see the smoke from the gun (which is right below the FLIR).

[AFACadet]

and on a "clock" in uper left corner below TADS is 16:27:53 :)
That could be Zulu time considering its in an american helo in a foreign country couldn't it?

Looks like you noticed it the same time I did. Yes, the clock either says 16 or 18:. It appears to be 18 based off the 8 in the gun counter on the bottom right.

But this time is in fact Zulu as correctly stated above. ALL US military aircraft use Zulu time.

And guss what, Iraq is +3 Zulu. Meaning that the time is either 19 or 21.

Oh, and whats this, sunset in Iraq on December 1, 2003 what what time?

Thats right 4:55 pm.

This was either 2 or 4 hours after sunset.

PITCH BLACK aka NIGHT.

[Vance]

It even looks like a woman, who gets of the tractor.


Look to the left of that soil and you will see an individual carrying what appears to be an assault rifle.

1. THe guys were clearly insurgents, clearly armed with RPG's or SA-7's

Where do you see this weapons ?!?
Women don't strut.

The dude drops a weapon in the field, and the dude seems to get a long barrelled weapon from the tractor covered in a sheet.

[One?]

It even looks like a woman, who gets of the tractor.


Look to the left of that soil and you will see an individual carrying what appears to be an assault rifle.

1. THe guys were clearly insurgents, clearly armed with RPG's or SA-7's

Where do you see this weapons ?!?
Women don't strut.

The dude drops a weapon in the field, and the dude seems to get a long barrelled weapon from the tractor covered in a sheet.


the question is how do u know that its a weapon? He even identified it as an SA7 :cantbeli:

[Seraphim]

Those apache pilots are trained to ID such weapons. You should all see the full video. Most of you fail to see the target in the right truck. One of the pilot says "get the truck and him" referring "him" as the wounded man.

[One?]

go to minute 2:02


The pilot is asked if he sees them with the weapon in their hands. He answers yes. Clearly at this point the weapon was dropped of in the field.

[hood]

In the middle of pilot 1 saying that, pilot 2 says over the radio that the weapons were thrown into the field, so the commander back at the base was clear as to what happened.

[TALOS]

In the middle of pilot 1 saying that, pilot 2 says over the radio that the weapons were thrown into the field, so the commander back at the base was clear as to what happened.
We have the luxury of reveiwing the tape repeatedly, they had just what they saw once, hard calls I would say.
Also, look to the far right of the screen when they kill the first guy, it looks like something in the hand of the person behind the truck, he falls forward and something is sticking out away from him, something long, could be anything.

[budanski]

For those interested, heres a video from an AC130 Gunship camera in Afghanistan. (http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/ac-130_gunship_over_afghanistan.avi.torrent)

[Seraphim]

For those interested, heres a video from an AC130 Gunship camera in Afghanistan. (http://digitaldreamteam.com/images/AC130_GunshipMed.wmv)


They sure use alot of heavy rounds to take out one person. What are they repeatedly yelling? I cant decypher it, sounds like "boomb, bang".

[AFACadet]

They are saying "gun ready." Those guns need to be manually loaded, and when they are, the loader yells that to let the gunner know he can fire again.


BTW, those 40mm bofors are the same type used in WWII.


In fact, those rounds they were using were made in 1944/45. There are still thousands of 'em left.

[ShotOver]

haha, both videos are awesome. Pretty amazing to see what firepower can be put down when the enemy dosnt even know you are there.

[Herrmannek]

and on a "clock" in uper left corner below TADS is 16:27:53 :)
That could be Zulu time considering its in an american helo in a foreign country couldn't it?
Looks like you noticed it the same time I did. Yes, the clock either says 16 or 18:. It appears to be 18 based off the 8 in the gun counter on the bottom right.

But this time is in fact Zulu as correctly stated above. ALL US military aircraft use Zulu time.

And guss what, Iraq is +3 Zulu. Meaning that the time is either 19 or 21.

Oh, and whats this, sunset in Iraq on December 1, 2003 what what time?

Thats right 4:55 pm.

This was either 2 or 4 hours after sunset.

PITCH BLACK aka NIGHT.

Time of event doesn't change much maybe something in case of "farmer"...but if we play analitics...do that well...

Time on that clock is 16:27 not 18:27 as you can see on second display of clock 8 looks totaly different from 6 :) ...even if it was night at 16+3=19, esspecialy pitch black night why the guy was riding that ****ing tractor making wide circles and harrowing that ****ing field...? :)

[AFACadet]

Time on that clock is 16:27 not 18:27 as you can see on second display of clock 8 looks totaly different from 6 ...even if it was night at 16+3=19, esspecialy pitch black night why the guy was riding that f*** tractor making wide circles and harrowing that f*** field...?

good job pointing somthing out that other people have done four pages back.

He is trying to look natural. Farmers don't work in the pitch black, but if he got caught, he could simply say he was working in the field as an excuse. A farmer does not get off his tractor and start walking around towards some unknown trucks either. Its clear these guys knew eachother by their reactions and no greeting / chit-chat.

[Herrmannek]

Time on that clock is 16:27 not 18:27 as you can see on second display of clock 8 looks totaly different from 6 ...even if it was night at 16+3=19, esspecialy pitch black night why the guy was riding that f*** tractor making wide circles and harrowing that f*** field...?

good job pointing somthing out that other people have done four pages back.

You couldn't guys decide if it was 16 or 18 so I pointed real time that clock was showing... as for rest of post it was just refering to your previuos posts with local time of event you have kindly supervised :)....



He is trying to look natural. Farmers don't work in the pitch black, but if he got caught, he could simply say he was working in the field as an excuse. A farmer does not get off his tractor and start walking around towards some unknown trucks either. Its clear these guys knew eachother by their reactions and no greeting / chit-chat.

Is working on field in pitch black night looks natural to you? I if yes he could been realy working that day.Don't know why. Maybe because of tradition, or not propaer conditions at a day time...What tempereatures are in Iraq at a day in this part of year?, if it doesn't looks naturall it was probably drowing attention more than covering any suspicious actions...siting in a hole would be far better for conceal that pretending farmer works at night...If someone would like to check him I'm sure he would find that hiden wepons as in tractor you don't have realy good places to hide weapons...Being caught with striela sticking out of tractor...wow this would be hard to explain to anybody...

I just think that US soldiers should stick their asses from their equipment more frequently and start to do some good police&inteligence work instead of remotly eliminating suspected insurgents with is very error ****e solution.

[hood]

BTW, here was the original longer and higher quality version of that ac-130 video. The one posted above has the front cut out and it's not clear enough to see the individual people most of the time.

http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/ac-130_gunship_over_afghanistan.avi.torrent

[Seraphim]

Thanks.

[Gameholic]

Can somebody put a new link online with the apache movie? the others don't work!

:|

thanks!

[hood]

the media.militaryphotos one is a permanent link, and therefore still works

[Seraphim]

BTW, here was the original longer and higher quality version of that ac-130 video. The one posted above has the front cut out and it's not clear enough to see the individual people most of the time.

http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/ac-130_gunship_over_afghanistan.avi.torrent

Why does sound only come out of one channel/speaker.

The audio is waaay out of synch on this long version, its like the short version audio file placed over he long one.

[hood]

You probably just need the latest divx codec, although it is only left channel, the audio is definitely in sync throughout.

[glofs]

I see two reasons why you would plow at night;
1. the extreme heat during the day
2. the weedseeds don't get "activated" by the sun

[Marmot1]

Well I worked on a field couple of seasons and often we finished work after sunset just to don't start all the machinery again to finish small piece of land next day... and as for me those 2 guys hided something on the field this guy on tractor was moulding field when he come to this he started arguing with them and guy close to tractor said to him to speak to the guy near pickup and he was killed when he was walking... as for me there wer max 2 insurgents and one innocent, and killing wounded... WAR CRIME - NOTHING LES NOTHING MORE.

The only problem is that it was US choper since if it was Russian or Iraqi everybody would be shouting that it is MURDER and WAR CRIME like it was when iraqi tv shown US POWs everybody was shouting that it's again geneva and look what now US are doing... you can see pows detaines every day and now it is ok...

in poland there is comonly known saying from H.Sienkienicz (Nobel prize winner) book:

"Kali ukraść dobrze,Kalemu ukraśc źle" ("If Kali steal it's good, if sombody steal from Kali it's bad")

[Miles Teg]

I've already work with farmer friend during night. And make a lot of repair on field, with the father coming with his truck with a new draft shat (long metal barrel in plastic bag) to help us. We've got also a third big truck for transport of the worked material. And everyone was running to get back home early.

So in first time this scene look very natural. But the strange things become later.

When the first men is shoot, the dude in left of tractor if he was really natural would be on panic, freezed or crawling. But instead he was looking in the bag. This can't be a tractor piece more longer.

The third men looks very suspicious too, hiding and make some strange manouever like sniper posing.

So my conclusion is that they were not farmers but that the use of 30mm a little bit overkill. A military police intervention would be much more interesting. Remenber dead can't speak and television is watching you.
But in case of police intervention, if the suspects use weapons against them, here you can smoke them from the sky.
It's more professional.

And professional the apache drivers??? They miss the first burst because of laser range miss. They can't be representative of the so high skilled training that all the american are talking about.

[Uncle Sam]

You have no ground troops in the area to take these guys out...

...What's the smallest weapon on an Apache?? The 30 mike mike...Use what you got !

[Miles Teg]

You have no ground troops in the area to take these guys out...

...What's the smallest weapon on an Apache?? The 30 mike mike...Use what you got !

Hope that the smallest weapon you will have will never be a nuclear warhead...

If you can't make work professionaly, don't make it.

[Uncle Sam]

HUH?


If you can't make work professionaly, don't make it.
If you can't make the "reply" work, don't do it.


Obviously you have never been in a combat zone.



Hope that the smallest weapon you will have will never be a nuclear warhead...

You're an idiot.

[Vance]

I still can't beileve some of you guys think the farmer guy is innocent.

[Uncle Sam]

Ok...He looks around a few times, gets something from his vehicle...RUNS to the other side of that vehicle and tosses a long tube into the grass, RUNS back like nothing happened...Suspicious? Of course not. :slap:

I've seen people do that before in Iraq...Oh, no wait, that was Cops, my bad.

[erazer76]

who is give the 130 crew al the info?
someone on the ground,nearby?
or is it just a other crew member?

[AFACadet]

ground intel found out there was going to be a meeting by high level Taliban and / or Al queada members.

The footage you see is from a Predator which fed the targeting information to the AC-130 and also back to the CAOC. The guys at the CAOC confirmed the target (I can't remember if there was spec ops on the ground to confirm it themselves too).

Either way, the Predator found the targets overflying the compound and the gunner on the AC-130 would then use that information to slew his weapons to the designated targets.

[Roger Rabbit]

How come these videos are out on the internet?

[TALOS]

Ok...He looks around a few times, gets something from his vehicle...RUNS to the other side of that vehicle and tosses a long tube into the grass, RUNS back like nothing happened...Suspicious? Of course not. :slap:

I've seen people do that before in Iraq...Oh, no wait, that was Cops, my bad.
Finally saw the whole video, and now I have no doubt they were all involved including the "farmer"
They were waiting for him and when he arrived one of the two original guys goes right over to the other side of the tractor and starts removing a hard object that was wrapped while the driver saunters away without a care over to the big truck, they all knew each other, very obvious.
Edit: O and one more thing, he drives out to them with the tractor, because the furrows are already on the sides doesnt mean he was furrowing AT THAT TIME. Coulda bin anytime prior to this, and he used the tractor to go out there cuz it was more convenient, who knows.

[Marmot1]

that "wraped" object was that tube and it was lying on ground in front of the tactor it's why he stoped tractor since something was lying in front...

[erazer76]

we will never know

[Uncle Sam]

Marmot1 wrote

that "wraped" object was that tube and it was lying on ground in front of the tactor it's why he stoped tractor since something was lying in front...

You sure about that...Looked like he took it from the vehicle...Any one else think that?

[Subliminal One]

Can someone rehost the first video?

[usa320]

I still can't beileve some of you guys think the farmer guy is innocent

I believe it. THis place has gone from

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040111/i/r3608008365.jpg

To

http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/s/sstarr/Galleries/FTAA%20Miami/IMG_4112.jpg

[hood]

Can someone rehost the first video?

Not sure why you guys are having such a hard time finding it...

http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi.torrent

[Uncle Sam]

good one usa320

...And this little piggy went "boo hoo hoo, all the way home !"

[Merik]

Seriously its a moot point, the guys are dead and none of you can conspiculate why they are because you werent there. It doesnt matter if the video shows every little single detail or not, we were not there so we cant guess why or why no those guys were shot.

[Miles Teg]

If you have some doubt about my advice, cause my poor skill english. I've explain I agree with the fact that the farmer and other guys are suspicious and intervention have to be made.

Just that the use of the apache for attack of looking disarmed people is overkill. Do you agree with me?


Obviously you have never been in a combat zone.
Can't see the relation, I must have military experience to see that thing wrong?



You're an idiot.

Thanks

[Miles Teg]

Anybody notice that the first running man wear something on his head, looks like headband or fold with bandanna like seals (I don't mean he is american !! ;) ) What do you think is it? Look strange.


It doesnt matter if the video shows every little single detail or not, we were not there so we cant guess why or why no those guys were shot.

Agree. It's why I desagree the method of kill them all we will ask question later.

[ExtraT]

A very interesting video.

The discussion of it, however, is completely pointless. Nobody around here has nowhere near the amount of information than the pilots and their commanders did at the time of the events. The video we have is clearly of reduced resolution and quality, even the longer version only shows a short period of time. The truck may have been under surveilance long before it got to the field. There probably was intelligence information involved, and so on.

As for the killing of a wounded man - there is no crime in that. Soliders are not obligated to capture people alive, they are obligated to destroy the enemy. There is only one case when they must take a man prisoner - when he clearly indicated his will to surrender. The fact that this particular one didn't get a chance is his problem.



Can't see the relation, I must have military experience to see that thing wrong?


No, you must understand what what the military is to see that it is NOT wrong. For that, you can either have a military experience, or have alittle common sence.
Civilian rules and morals don't apply to the military. For example, by the rules of war, prisoners held right now in Guantanamo Bay could have been executed on the spot when captured. The fact that they are instead kept alive and well at great expense of the military is a tremendous show of american good will.

[Uncle Sam]

I was harsh Miles Teg, Sorry....

[Uncle Sam]

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/smilebutt.gif


Boy, I am having WAY too much fun with these things...Loco !!

[Vance]

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/britwhore.gif

I was harsh Miles Teg, Sorry....
:cantbeli:

[Uncle Sam]

sickening...Isn't it.

[Uncle Sam]

I was harsh Miles Teg, Sorry....
:cantbeli:

Better.

[Miles Teg]

Too much attention on me.
:oops:

[TALOS]

that "wraped" object was that tube and it was lying on ground in front of the tactor it's why he stoped tractor since something was lying in front...
Go back and look at the video... the tube was thrown farther over, is not right in front. Its at least two furrows width over

[Uncle Sam]

I just watched it for one last time...And I noticed something...Right when the Apache takes out the first guy, then moves over to take out the second guy near the tractor...You can actually see him trying to "unwrap" something...He knows that the dude just got wasted from something in the air...Could it be...Perhaps and RPG...Or maybe an AK...Or am I seeing **** ????

Let me know.

[TALOS]

I just watched it for one last time...And I noticed something...Right when the Apache takes out the first guy, then moves over to take out the second guy near the tractor...You can actually see him trying to "unwrap" something...He knows that the dude just got wasted from something in the air...Could it be...Perhaps and RPG...Or maybe an AK...Or am I seeing **** ????

Let me know.
No... you are right... he is working feverishly to unwrap something, I dont know about you but I wouldnt waste time unwrapping something that wasnt gonna help me ;)
Whatever that was, he wants it bad.

[Jack Mehoff]

Any of you here actually saw the WHOLE footage?

http://www.militaryvideos.net/torrents/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi.torrent

[Jack Mehoff]

There was indeed a big ass weapon, possibly an RPG in that video.

[cut]

I agree the two guys were good targets but the farmer was just in the wrong place at the wrong time by the looks of things, but then the video skipped and the farmer arrives suddenly so maybe they saw something.

[Uncle Sam]

GUILTY !!!!!!

[TALOS]

I agree the two guys were good targets but the farmer was just in the wrong place at the wrong time by the looks of things, but then the video skipped and the farmer arrives suddenly so maybe they saw something.
He drives up and one of the first two comes up says something to him and goes immediately to the other side of the tractor and starts to unwrap something, meanwhile "farmer" gets off with out a glance back and walks to the truck. In Iraq, after dark, in his field, in time of war, he feels secure enough to let a stranger start taking something from his tractor and walking to the other guy? I dont think so.

[Uncle Sam]

They are definitely guilty of doing "something" not so good...The proofs in the puddin'.

[Genesis]

Unless we were there we can't judge the actions by this clip alone. What were these guys doing an hour, week, or day before this? They could have done nothing, or they could have mutilated children. Who knows, I can't tell for a 3 minute clip. All I know is if they were being followed they had to have done something to draw suspicion. And after watching all the clips of people getting decapitated and other horrors at least these guys died quickly.

[Bartok5]

I'm new here, but on another web-site that I frequent several people with no military experience decried the fact that using an Apache cannon against 3 dismounted terrorists somehow didn't constitute a "fair fight".

Once I stopped spurting coffee out of my nose, I wrote a bit of a reply, which I will share with you here. The text below is my message on that other board:

"________ wrote that it "Hardly seems like a fair fight ...

Well, speaking as a soldier who has participated in real, live combat operations, the last thing in the world I want is a "fair" fight against a declared enemy. Quite frankly, if you are in an equal match with your opponent, you have seriously screwed up the operational planning process. A fundamental tenet of combat operations is to apply an overwhelming concentration of synchronized combat power at the correct time and place to achieve total superiority over your opponent. Failure to do so using every legal and appropriate means at your disposal would not only be stupid, it would also be negligent in terms of ensuring that the bad guys die and your own troops don't.

"Fair" fights are for the schoolground and games of tiddlywinks. We're talking life and death here folks. Personally, I like to see the enemy dead quickly as possible, and with the least amount of risk and effort expended on the part of my soldiers. To arrange anything less would be tantamount to unnecessarily toying with the lives of the military personnel entrusted to my leadership.

Quite frankly, if a declared enemy wants to engage me with a sharpened banana then that is his (very poor) decision. Assuming that the Rules of Engagement permit me to employ the full range of available combat power, I am not going to limit myself to responding with "equal" force in order to give that enemy a "sporting chance". I am going to stand back and hammer him with the widest possible array of lethal firepower at my disposal. If I never have to fire a shot from my rifle because the bad guy has been vapourized at long range by artillery or attack helicopter support, then all the better for me and my troops.

As others have already said, war is not a pretty buisness, nor is it intended to be "fair". Big Boy's Rules apply, and people stupid enough to take on a vastly superior force richly deserve what they get. The price of stupidity in combat is death. If you choose to play in the big leagues with the ultimate stakes, then you'd best be prepared to pay the price. Generally speaking, it is too late to reconsider your career as a terrorist (or soldier for that matter) when you suddenly find yourself staring down the wrong end of a 30mm cannon.....

I can appreciate that my views may be construed as "harsh" by those on this board who lack military training and experience. On the other hand, those who do (or have done) "the buisness" will know exactly what I'm talking about. Furthermore, I can pretty much guarantee you that every single military member on this board will wholeheartedly agree that the time for "fair play", mercy and compassion is AFTER the threat has been positively and decisively eliminated.

Sorry, but sitting at a comfy keyboard and judging someone else's actions based on an incomplete snippet of grainy video imagery just doesn't cut it with me. The crew of that Apache had to make a whole series of split-second, life and death decisions under immense stress and personal risk. I have little doubt that they made the best possible call based on their understanding of the circumstances at the time. I for one, refuse to indulge in "armchair quarterbacking" of someone else's actions if I wasn't there myself. There are so many "unknowns" associated with the video clip that any "evaluation" of that crew's actions based soley on the clip amounts to nothing more than grotesquely presumptuous mental masturbation.

People have always died in horrible and nasty ways in war. The only difference today is that a global audience occasionally gets to see it happen. Repulsive? Yes it is. However, if you are particularly shocked by that video, then you have been living in a typically Canadian bubble of naivite until now. To be brutally honest, that footage was VERY tame compared to some of the stuff that I have seen first-hand in the service of our country.

Whether you agree with it or not, as a taxpayer you are the one who sends people like me (or that Apache crew) to nasty foreign lands to kill the people that threaten our national security. Peacekeeping is nothing more than a "feel good" sideline activity for the military when there aren't more important things to be done. The fundamental reason that Canada has military forces is to defend our nation and its people. And that ultimately entails killing anyone who by their wilfull actions, poses a direct threat to us.

I know that most Canadians find this difficult to believe, but there are actually a lot of people out there in the big bad world who want nothing more than to kill you, your family, your friends, and everyone that you ever met. Why? Just because they happen to pray to a different God than you do, or because they're jealous of what you have. These people are fanatics, whose target of choice is innocent woment and children because "soft targets" represent minimal risk to the terrorist perpetrator. They aren't interested in compromise, nor will any amount of "huggy-feely dialogue" alter their views a single iota. They don't want peace and happy fellowship with you and I, they simply want us and everyone that we know, dead. If they could find a way to infiltrate our country and bring the bombs to Bay Street, they most certainly would. As it stands right now however, the U.S. has given them an arena in which to fight the "Great Satan" in Iraq. Fine - better that Iraq serve as the battleground than the streets of Washington or Toronto. There are only 2 ways to deal with these "people" (and I use the term loosely) - 100% infallible containment in their home locations, or death. Since the former is impossible, this leaves us no choice but to pursue the latter - with due regard for all applicable conventions of "acceptable conflict behaviour", of course. Right off the bat, that puts us at a significant disadvantage, mind you.....

War, particularly a war on terrorism, is ugly. I'd suggest that we all learn to deal with it. I'd also suggest that we cease passing judgement on those do the dirty work for us, unless there is concrete evidence to suggest wrong-doing on their part. Personally, I find it repugnant when people try to second-guess someone else's actions in hindsight, based on incomplete information, from the comfort of their "ass-master Laz-i-Boy".....

I most certainly won't be losing any sleep over the deaths depicted in that video. I only hope that many "associates" of the deceased have been afforded a similar opportunity to view the same imagery. Displays of overwhelmingly terminal firepower have a special deterrent value all of their own.....

Sorry for the rambling vent, but I feel much better now. Fire away in retort if you must, but you'll be wasting your breath on me. I won't be changing the views that I've formed through personal experience and expressed in this post. At least not in this lifetime.... "

What I said above pretty much sums up my views as a serving Canadian infantry officer regarding the incomplete video excerpt that we've all recently seen. Quite frankly, I'm behind the Apache crew 110%, and I'm very happy to know that there are 3 less terrorist scumbags left in the world for the rest of us to have to deal with. 'Nuff said about that.

So much for my first post here....

[Uncle Sam]

wow...

[budanski]

Great response, Bartok5... and welcome aboard. :D

[He219]

An excellent first post, Bartok5!

Welcome.
:D

[AFACadet]

Very nice post!

[TALOS]

Kudos Bartok... good to have your voice here

[Caribou Kid]

Bartok, that was a serious vent! Do you feel like a nap now? Perhaps a cigarette?.... :)

Just jokes, dude. I couldn't begin to agree with you more. However, one must include a modicum of objectivity here, too. Remeber the Tractor carrying fleeing refugees that got bombed in the Former Yugoslavia...? Remember the "accidental" bombing of the CHINESE EMBASSY in the NATO air war? ("No, seriously, mate, modern weapons are so accurate we can pick which window we wanna put the bomb into..." :oops:

That was done AFTER the world was force fed all the History channel/Discovery Channel/CNN propaganda from Desert Storm. (can anyone say "Patriot missile upgrade programme?" )

But this does not mean that the footage in question here is not reliable or legitimate. What it DOES mean, though, is that one should still accept the imagery being shown with an open mind, no? These brave aviation folks (probably a little fatigued too, I would imagine. War does not stop for Morning coffee break, or afternoon siesta. Pity. ) are not above making (tragic) mistakes. Does this footage look like a mistake? Not to these Aussie eyes. Was the last guy who got gunned up injured and in misery? Probably yes. But he WAS in a warzone, and the guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Whether he had ties or links to Mr. "hiding the wrapped up object in the Field" is not known. What if Tractor Driver's wife and children were being held hostage at home by other Fedayeen while he "voluntarily assisted" these jokers with his Tractor so his kid didn't get an AK-47 bullet in the throat? Does that make him any less worthy of receiving aid or mercy from an orbiting gunship, or is he now "doomed scum" because he is working under duress with the Bad guys...?

Never the less, War is still a chaotic event, sadly. Think back to the Dresden firebombing. At least the 2 Apache pilots lived to fly another day to defend OUR freedoms and lifestyle, and little old "I'll be sneaky and hide this in the field" matey and his friend are now worm food. They did not seem to be planting olive trees of friendship and peace, whatever time of day the footage was shot. (More like a Sam-7 strela tree....or an RPG-7 sapling) p-)


I think the forces of Goodness and Light came out marginally better off after this engagement, with an unfortunate taint of doubt over a possible human rights violation thrown on what would otherwise have been a textbook engagement. Sadly, this will not be the last time things like this happen....

[Falco]

Damn ... a classic case of " put that in your pipe and smoke it"

[TALOS]

What if Tractor Driver's wife and children were being held hostage at home by other Fedayeen while he "voluntarily assisted" these jokers with his Tractor so his kid didn't get an AK-47 bullet in the throat? Does that make him any less worthy of receiving aid or mercy from an orbiting gunship, or is he now "doomed scum" because he is working under duress with the Bad guys...?



IMHO - Not to be harsh, but, even if that were true, and there is no evidence even remotely supplied to suggest that (or anything other than the fact that an American Helo engaged three subjects), its not the concern of the engaging troops. To wonder if they are assisting through duress would just distract soldiers from doing their job efficiently. .

[Merik]

Bartok, thats all I have ever been told by my old man when it comes to military hardware. Never go into a fight and play fair. Overwhelming force, the basis for wars such as Desert Storm and Op Iraqi Freedom. Great post and like the others, welcome.

[Herrmannek]

Bartok, thats all I have ever been told by my old man when it comes to military hardware. Never go into a fight and play fair. Overwhelming force, the basis for wars such as Desert Storm and Op Iraqi Freedom. Great post and like the others, welcome.

And those are effects of no fair game:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.phpt=7283&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

...fair-play isn't about not using available advantages...it is about following rules...you brake them you loose even you crush oponent to dust...

[Zerodivider]

The story behind the video... (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html)

[Miles Teg]

I totally agree with Bartok.

But for me the annoying thing is - in my point of view given by the poor video - that the men can't not be clearly indentified as ennemy.

But as I've read on this article "The story behind the video..." the pilot, gunner and commander have more information than us to decide.

I don't care of the fact they use 30mm, it would be done with m-16 my reaction will be the same.
I'm only against the method of kill them, and ask question later. Sur this method is more carefull and "efficient". But some investigation would be more usefull against terrorism movment.

[Herrmannek]

The story behind the video... (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html)

This story isn't reliable....


Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

...because tractor driver died first then the guy who was searching the tractor and then guy under benz truck, I think guy who wrote that article haven't watched that video carefuly enough. Making such obvious mistake disallow me trust in thr rest of the article...

[hood]

Ok guys, I got http://www.militaryvideos.net up and running for these types of videos.

[Merik]

Bartok, thats all I have ever been told by my old man when it comes to military hardware. Never go into a fight and play fair. Overwhelming force, the basis for wars such as Desert Storm and Op Iraqi Freedom. Great post and like the others, welcome.

And those are effects of no fair game:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.phpt=7283&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

...fair-play isn't about not using available advantages...it is about following rules...you brake them you loose even you crush oponent to dust...

What are you getting at cause I dont understand.....

[bubbamonkey1966]

War is war people die end of story

[Zerodivider]

...because tractor driver died first then the guy who was searching the tractor and then guy under benz truck, I think guy who wrote that article haven't watched that video carefuly enough. Making such obvious mistake disallow me trust in thr rest of the article...


That depends on the definition... The guys swap seats, so the man who is at that time the tractor driver dies indeed after the man in the field.

[Groove]

this video is cuted / edited around 3:30 .

The most funny is the sound in this video. One of the guys is asking if one of the suspects have a weapon in the hand. And he answers "Yes". But the guy have nothing in his hands.

Later they hit the obviously dying man which crawls from under the truck. Yes of course this was a life / death decission - sitting in a Apache maybe 1 mile away.

The "weapon" which is thrown into field dont seems to be a SAM. But i must admire that its strange to see that the 2nd victim try to take it out shortly before he is dead-meat.

Groove

[DE_Six]

Bartok5, hats off to you! Very well said.

Welcome aboard!

[TALOS]

The most funny is the sound in this video. One of the guys is asking if one of the suspects have a weapon in the hand. And he answers "Yes". But the guy have nothing in his hands.

if you listen you hear another voice clearly state the weapon was thrown


The "weapon" which is thrown into field dont seems to be a SAM. But i must admire that its strange to see that the 2nd victim try to take it out shortly before he is dead-meat.
Groove
Watch carefully, he doesnt pick up the thrown weapon which is farther to the left and forward of the tractor, he grabs something new from the tractor itself


That depends on the definition... The guys swap seats, so the man who is at that time the tractor driver dies indeed after the man in the field.
Swappin seats implies that he actually gets in the tractor to drive it which if you watch the video he most assuredly did not do, he merely removed another item from the tractor

[Dman32]

All three, yes even the one's that ran would have fired at the apache
if they had half the chance. So i guess because we have better weapons
like(being able to see in the dark)we win. F#*k'em better them than our
troops.

[Dman32]

Remember, they are in complete darkness. A little strange? Soldiers,rebels or what ever they were they were the enemy.
(When the first guy gets cut apart the glow factor goes to 10)
They had a weapon bottom line...

[gilgoul]

Did the second fellow get his jacket/coat stuck on the tractor? Poor guy

hmmmmm What do think that was?? Looked like a tube shaped object wrapped in cloth to me...

... but not to me. To me they look very very unarmed. And killing unarmed people, even though they might be "slightly possible insurgents because they were driving away from a battle" (which even I would do I if was a bystander) feels slightly as a warcrime to me. But if they now saw a "weapon" then what the hell, but atleast I couldn´t see one.

ONCE AGAIN MUSTAMATO

THE POOR LITTLE IRAKIS WHO GOT BLASTED MAY OR MAY NOT BE TERRORISTS, INSURGENT OR "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" AS YOU MIGHT LIKE TO CALL THEM.
THE FOOTAGE THAT IS SHOWN MIGHT BE HARD INDEED, BUT DOESN`T REPRESENT AN EVIDENCE OF A WRONG BEHAVIOR FROM THE CHOPPER CREW.
THE PILOTS REPORTS, ASKS FOR PERMISSION TO SHOOT, AND SHOOTS, NOTHING SHOCKING SO FAR.
SO PLEASE DON`T START TO PUT THE WORDS OF " WAR CRIMES" AND SO ON, KEEP THEM FOR EVENTS THAT DESERVE THEM.
:slap:

[gilgoul]

I'm only against the method of kill them, and ask question later. Sur this method is more carefull and "efficient". But some investigation would be more usefull against terrorism movment.[/quote]


Tell me that after you stop considering western africa like your SAFARI, no offense intended to the servicemen and legionnaires serving there, on "humanitarian" mission. But the day some serious investigation will be launched, on the model that the self righteous french want, i`m affraid that there s going to be some surprises "en terre des droits de l`Homme".
For your information, I served under the french flag in 1993/94, both in Metropole and colonies.

[Miles Teg]

Tell me that after you stop considering western africa like your SAFARI, no offense intended to the servicemen and legionnaires serving there, on "humanitarian" mission. But the day some serious investigation will be launched, on the model that the self righteous french want, i`m affraid that there s going to be some surprises "en terre des droits de l`Homme".
For your information, I served under the french flag in 1993/94, both in Metropole and colonies.

Ok, I'm confident in your experience. Your revelation is rude but looks real.

Your post have substance and inteligence, glad to hear some objective fact from an extern point of view. It give me material to think.

And for the video, we know absolutly not the all things about the situation. But at the first view it looks shocking.

And about soldiers only obeying to orders I disagree with this. For me pilots are militaries able to take decisions.
They can make mistake, they certainly know more than us on the situation, but obey blindly... How many SS have only obey to order?

But in other hand it is their job... I'm too far of military experience to put conclusion on this, that my last word.