German/US Vehicles in the Polish Army

[REMOV]

Leopard 2 MBT

http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-23.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-01.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-02.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-03.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-04.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-05.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-06.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-11.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-12.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-15.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-17.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-18.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-19.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-20.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-21.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-22.jpg


M113
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m113/m113-03.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m113/m113-02.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m113/m113-01.jpg


M577
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m577/m577-04.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m577/m577-03.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m577/m577-02.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m577/m577-01.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m577/m577-06.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/m577/m577-07.jpg

Leopard 1 AVLB Biber
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-01.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-02.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-03.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-04.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-05.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-06.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-08.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-10.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-12.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-13.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-16.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-17.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Biber/Biber-18.jpg

All pictures by Michal Bartusiak

[Operation Ivy]

woot Grrrr the Leo :-*$ :D

[Kitsune]

Just an old one Ivy...




But it still can bite !!!

p-)

[wholagun]

Hey when did we get M113s and did we pay for them or were they freebies or cheap like the Leos?

[[AFSOC]]

Is Canada still replacing there Leopards with Strykers???

I think thats retarded, it'd be nice if they equipped themselves wit Abrams or Challengers or the new Leopards.

[Dalleer]

http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-01.jpg

Ah yes, the famous Leopard 2.

Some of you might already know this, and it should come as no surprise to every non-Finnish member of this board, but we actually paid several times more of these Leopard 2's than Poland did, some theories indicate that Poland got them cheaper because they were a NATO member and/or because Germany needed to place "something heavy" between the Russians and Germany in case of a conflict.

This "Leopard 2 price issue" has been a very heated topic of discussion here, not to mention that Greece (was is it Greece?) paid alot more than Finland did for these Leopard 2's in turn.

[mustamato]

http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Leopard2/Leopard2-01.jpg

Ah yes, the famous Leopard 2.

Some of you might already know this, and it should come as no surprise to every non-Finnish member of this board, but we actually paid several times more of these Leopard 2's than Poland did, some theories indicate that Poland got them cheaper because they were a NATO member and/or because Germany needed to place "something heavy" between the Russians and Germany in case of a conflict.

This "Leopard 2 price issue" has been a very heated topic of discussion here, not to mention that Greece (was is it Greece?) paid alot more than Finland did for these Leopard 2's in turn.

http://www.rekyyli.com/uutiset/military/P6027208.jpg

http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/kuvat/uutiset/2003/05/09/20030509yo04i.jpg

Finnish Leopard 2A4´s, pretty much the same one as the poles got.

"Finland paid about EUR 500,000 apiece for the 124 tanks that it bought. At the same time Poland bought 128 of the tanks for just 100,000 euros each."

But obviously as neighbouring countries Germany has in its interest to support and modernize the polish armed forces, it will of course also be easier to co-operate when the Poles have Leopards and so forth. I don´t think that the finns did a bad deal at all, I mean 500.000 Euro for a Leopard 2A4 that is still a good tank, that´s nothing really. And that included spare parts and all that! But german media has obviously been critising that the Poles got them so cheap, it was "missusing german tax-payers money" and all thtat...

[-Max2-]

Nice pics. :)

Don't know that Poland was also using M113s and M577s...

Ex-US Army or Bundeswher APC i suppose ?

[tony6]

But obviously as neighbouring countries Germany has in its interest to support and modernize the polish armed forces, it will of course also be easier to co-operate when the Poles have Leopards and so forth. I don´t think that the finns did a bad deal at all, I mean 500.000 Euro for a Leopard 2A4 that is still a good tank, that´s nothing really. And that included spare parts and all that! But german media has obviously been critising that the Poles got them so cheap, it was "missusing german tax-payers money" and all thtat...
Yeah-and Polish companies will be producing ammo and spare parts to these tanks. Also service repairs will be done in Poland.
And don't forget 23 MiGs-29 we "bought" for 1 euro.
:)

[scoone]

]Is Canada still replacing there Leopards with Strykers???

I think thats retarded, it'd be nice if they equipped themselves wit Abrams or Challengers or the new Leopards.

In a move toward making the Canadian land forces more nimble and responsive, Defence Minister John McCallum announced $600 million for 66 new fighting vehicles meant to replace Canada's fleet of Leopard battle tanks. Here's how the two vehicles compare:

Mobile Gun System

The eight-wheel-drive Mobile Gun System is based on the LAV III platform, already in extensive use by the Canadian Forces (there are currently 651 LAV variants in operation). The Mobile Gun System is also used by the U.S. military, which ordered 2,131 of the vehicles in November 2000.

U.S. tests have proven the Mobile Gun System is able to fit inside a C-130 Hercules aircraft – the Canadian Forces' main air transport.

Crew: 3
105-mm main gun
.50-calibre machine gun
7.62-mm gun
Range: 483 km
Speed: 100 km/h
Engine 350 hp Caterpillar diesel
Weight: 17.2 tonnes

Leopard tank

This is Canada's main (and only) battle tank. The Leopard was originally developed by Germany in the 1960s. Canada purchased 127 of these in 1978/79 and began upgrading them with new armaments and armour. According to the Department of National Defence, the Leopard can remain serviceable until 2010.

The Leopard is too heavy to be transported by Canadian Forces aircraft.

Entered service: 1978
Number in service: 114
105-mm main gun
2 - 7.62-mm machine guns
Crew: 4
Range: 600 km
Speed: 65 km/h
Engine: 10-cylinder, 830 hp multifuel
Weight (loaded): 42.5 tonnes

Variants:
Taurus (armoured repair and recovery)
Badger (armoured engineer vehicle)
Beaver (bridge layer)

[REMOV]

Don't know that Poland was also using M113s and M577s... Just a few. The Germans sell a whole tank brigade to Poland with all vehicles (6 M577, 13 M113 Armoured Command Vehicles, 16 M113 Ambulance, 128 Leopard 2A4, 10 Bergepanzer 2A2, 4 Bruekenlegenpanzer 1 Biber, 6 SLT.50-2 Faun Elephant (see picture below), 91 Mercedes 1017 5-t trucks, 29 Unimog 435 2-t trucks, 25 Mercedes MB 290GD jeeps). This Polish brogade is a part of German Division (7th Panzer Div from Duesseldorf) which is multinational part of Rapid Development NATO Force. So, when the division would operate abroad the whole logistic servis is German, thats why the equipment is German too.

http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Elephant/faun-01.jpg
http://www66.tok2.com/home2/tankguy/PolishArmy/Elephant/faun-02.jpg


Ex-US Army or Bundeswher APC i suppose ?All the vehicles were gained from Germany.

A few more Leopard 2 pictures:
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/r1103_leo01.jpg
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/r1103_leo02.jpg
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/r1103_leo03.jpg
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/r1103_leo04.jpg
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/r1103_leo05.jpg

[scoone]

German ingeneering woot

[marktigger]

yes vorch sprung dorch technik as they say in the audi adds :D

Nice to see german tanks in poland which are there to help the poles ;)

[tony6]

Yeah-Polish tankers in German tanks...times really change:)

[Thomsen]

The tanks were sold for a symbolical price or for free. Oh, how much money the Bundeswehr has!!!! :roll:

[wholagun]

well i heard that Germans were getting the Leo 2a6 and they had leo 2a4s in storage and it was costing more to keep in storage then it was to actually give it to the Poles who only paid for the trasport from storage to the bases. Even the training was free. Don't worry Im sure we'll buy German tanks whenever we get around to upgrading our MBTs. Then you'll get your money back. Just get something newer then the Leo 2a6 ( i mean the Russians the black eagle and we need to comepte with that fine peice of work. :) )

[tony6]

Russian "balck eagle" is a ghost tank fot now.
Anyone see any units armed with those new tanks?
:)

[wholagun]

well I was just joking about Russian Black Eagles comming down Eastern Front.

However I would like the Germans to invent a new sweet as mother kick ass tanks with something radical. Leo is getting old stop updating and give the world something new to druel about. You guys really want Op Ivy to say.. haha US got better newer tank then you... :cantbeli:

[wholagun]

Russian "balck eagle" is a ghost tank fot now.
Anyone see any units armed with those new tanks?
:)

The project was never realized due to lack of money. I read it was suppose to be put into service already but no bling bling.

[mustamato]

I think the Leopard 2A4 still has what it takes to destroy the russian T-series of tanks. I mean, the 2A5 is not more lethal in terms of firepower than the 2A4, the same cannon and MG3´s. So they are quite sufficient for a country like Finland, and they got them almost for free. I have a feeling that russia will have (because of the lack of money) technologically not-that-good tanks in the next decades. So that countries like Finland with a small defence budget can keep buying ex-Bundeswehr tanks is just fine with me...

[aeternum]

However I would like the Germans to invent a new sweet as mother kick ass tanks with something radical. Leo is getting old stop updating and give the world something new to druel about. You guys really want Op Ivy to say.. haha US got better newer tank then you... :cantbeli:

rumors say in 2015 Germany gets a new MBT... well who knows.. so far the next huge update is to replace the Marder with the Puma starting soon.

[Thomsen]

...so far the next huge update is to replace the Marder with the Puma starting soon.

If our ministry of defence will not change its opinion once again. :|

[REMOV]

The tanks were sold for a symbolical price or for free. Oh, how much money the Bundeswehr has!!!! :roll:Sure! Well, I told you a story about Germans and their guns.

Germany is the only nation I know which... destroyed 100 000 (one hundred thousands) brand new G3Ax rifles (from 1960-1980) because environmentalist in government forced Bundeswehr to do it. It was in 2003 (Minister Struck decision). The funny thing it were completly new weapons (never used) from German strategic reserve. You know, in the USA the G3Ax costs ca. 7000-8000USD, the self-loding version G3 i.e. HK91 (or HK41) ca. 2500USD. So, if the Germans altered them to the HK91 or HK41 version, and sell them for, let say... only 1000USD each, then Germany might earn 1000 x 100 000 = 100 000 000USD. Naturally Bundeswehr had to pay for the scraping of guns. How you should call it, maybe Deutsche Wirtschaft?

The second funny thing is that only Bundesmarine thought a little bit, so the order was - to destroy all the rifles, and they done it. But first, they disassembled the rifles, take the butts and foregrips apart and sold them on the free market... And they hadn't pay anything for scrapping, furthermore they even make a profit!

So tell me more about the richest army on the Earth, ok? ;)

[aeternum]

The tanks were sold for a symbolical price or for free. Oh, how much money the Bundeswehr has!!!! :roll:Sure! Well, I told you a story about Germans and their guns.

Germany is the only nation I know which... destroyed 100 000 (one hundred thousands) brand new G3Ax rifles (from 1960-1980) because environmentalist in government forced Bundeswehr to do it. It was in 2003 (Minister Struck decision). The funny thing it were completly new weapons (never used) from German strategic reserve. You know, in the USA the G3Ax costs ca. 7000-8000USD, the self-loding version G3 i.e. HK91 (or HK41) ca. 2500USD. So, if the Germans altered them to the HK91 or HK41 version, and sell them for, let say... only 1000USD each, then Germany might earn 1000 x 100 000 = 100 000 000USD. Naturally Bundeswehr had to pay for the scraping of guns. How you should call it, maybe Deutsche Wirtschaft?

The second funny thing is that only Bundesmarine thought a little bit, so the order was - to destroy all the rifles, and they done it. But first, they disassembled the rifles, take the butts and foregrips apart and sold them on the free market... And they hadn't pay anything for scrapping, furthermore they even make a profit!

So tell me more about the richest army on the Earth, ok? ;)

Well i dont know this specific chase, but it doesnt surprise me at all. The germans, at least our politicans rather destroy weapons they dont need than sell them, especially small arm weapons, like rifles. As its common knowledge small arms weapon are the no1 killer weapon world wide. No other weapon does cause more deaths than small arms. A peacefull germany as its best, thats what the world wanted after the war, now live with that.. with all the consequencies.. ;)

[[AFSOC]]

http://army.ca/album/Vehicles/International/XM1_Abrams.JPG

Wuts that?

[[AFSOC]]

A C1 Leopard :D

http://army.ca/album/Training/staunch.jpg

[aeternum]

However I would like the Germans to invent a new sweet as mother kick ass tanks with something radical. Leo is getting old stop updating and give the world something new to druel about. You guys really want Op Ivy to say.. haha US got better newer tank then you... :cantbeli:

rumors say in 2015 Germany gets a new MBT... well who knows.. so far the next huge update is to replace the Marder with the Puma starting soon.

Here is a pic and some info i found about a "Leo 3". Well no idea if its true or not... well anyway here the link:
http://www.military.cz/german/armour/tanks/leopard_3/leopard_3.htm

http://www.military.cz/german/armour/tanks/leopard_3/Leopard3.jpg

[kinghk]

Germany is the only nation I know which... destroyed 100 000 (one hundred thousands) brand new G3Ax rifles (from 1960-1980) because environmentalist in government forced Bundeswehr to do it.



Sounds like something that could be done in Norway as well. When the last weapons of german ww2-origin was decommisioned from the armed forces in the early 90's, it was all scrapped, although the potensial value was high.
Lugers, P38, MP40 it was all melted.




It was in 2003 (Minister Struck decision). The funny thing it were completly new weapons (never used) from German strategic reserve. You know, in the USA the G3Ax costs ca. 7000-8000USD, the self-loding version G3 i.e. HK91 (or HK41) ca. 2500USD.



Well some american probably has a better answer on this than me, but anyway. These weapons are so high priced because they are almost impossible to get one, due to american gun laws. The first rule of capitalism, high demand and small amounts of avaiable guns will make the price go high. The few legal full auto german made G3's was imported before 1968. The technical value of a G3 rifle is far less than both 2500 USD and 7-8000. The german goverment had really no chance of selling these weapons to american civilians.

The swedes gave away some swedish produced G3 to Latvia, perhaps there is a market there.

[Thomsen]

Germany is the only nation I know which... destroyed 100 000 (one hundred thousands) brand new G3Ax rifles (from 1960-1980) because environmentalist in government forced Bundeswehr to do it.

...

How you should call it, maybe Deutsche Wirtschaft?

So tell me more about the richest army on the Earth, ok? ;)

Therefore I would need a forum only for those stories. Remember the destruction of nearly all weapons and vehicles of the NVA (Nationale Volksarmee, army of the former GDR)?

Same thing when new equipment must be bought or some work must be done by civilians, most advertising goes to companies who need money. In the last three years I´ve seen about five companies getting bankrupt only in my military base, what means that their work must be stopped immediately. As an example, in our medical centre here some of the walls are naked as the result of this.

Bundeswehr = absence of logical thinking. :bash:

You may not call it "deutsche Wirtschaft", just call it "Bundeswehr and political correctness".


Here is a pic and some info i found about a "Leo 3". Well no idea if its true or not... well anyway here the link:
http://www.military.cz/german/armour/tanks/leopard_3/leopard_3.htm

Maybe there are some rumours, but they´re everywhere. ;)

The picture does definitely not show the new Leopard, remember: even for the new APC PUMA, which shall be bought in 2005 there are no pictures existing.

[REMOV]

The picture does definitely not show the new Leopard, remember: even for the new APC PUMA, which shall be bought in 2005 there are no pictures existing.According to my information from Munster (there is Bundeswehr Panzertruppenschule), colonel Hans-Joerg Voll said the Leopard 3 wouldn't be produced. The Bundeswehr is changed and there is no need to create a new (heavy) MBT, and Germany will have only 502 Leopards 2A4 and 350 Leopards 2A6 (in fact there will be upgrated Leopards 2A5 produced between 1995-1999 (225 tanks) and newer one (125 tanks) which production was finished in last year) in line, at least untill 2025. So, boys... the era of Leopard probably is over, and the 2A6 variant will be the last one.

[Kitsune]

About "Leopard 3":
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_leopard_2_a6-a.htm


Es wird ganz offensichtlich keinen Kampfpanzer Leopard 3 geben. Brigadegeneral Wolf-Dieter Langheld, General der Gepanzerten Kampftruppen und Kommandeur der Panzertruppenschule kündigte noch für dieses Jahr eine Initiative an, »in der ein neues Gefechtssystem für die Panzertruppe gefordert wird, ein System, das keine Weiterentwicklung des heutigen Kampfpanzers Leopard 2 A6 hin zum Leopard 3 sein wird, sondern vielmehr ein System, das mit anderen gemeinsam Ziele aufklären und entweder selbst oder im Verbund mit anderen Systemen bekämpfen können wird.« Es müsse die Fähigkeiten des Kampfpanzers von heute abdecken, ohne zugleich über 70 Tonnen zu wiegen. Grundsätzlich müsse das neue Gefechtssystem ähnliche Fähigkeiten haben wie heute der Leopard 2 A6, aber es müsse aus den Erfahrungen der Einsätze der vergangenen Jahre deutlich leichter werden. Auch Fragen nach dem Kaliber müssten gestellt werden. Es sei an ein Waffensystem (oder eine Familie) zu denken, das über hohe Durchsetzungsfähigkeit und einen guten Schutz verfüge und so vielseitig sei, dass es in Konflikten der Kategorien »low« bis »high« einsetzbar ist. Bei einem Basisfahrzeug sei u.u. eine geringere Schutzstufe zu akzeptieren. Nach Langheld wird damit »eine durchaus revolutionäre Entwicklung eingeläutet. Wir müssen mit dem Nachdenken beginnen.«


You don't speak German?

Oooooh :(

[Shadow]

The tanks were sold for a symbolical price or for free. Oh, how much money the Bundeswehr has!!!! :roll:Sure! Well, I told you a story about Germans and their guns.

Germany is the only nation I know which... destroyed 100 000 (one hundred thousands) brand new G3Ax rifles (from 1960-1980) because environmentalist in government forced Bundeswehr to do it. It was in 2003 (Minister Struck decision). The funny thing it were completly new weapons (never used) from German strategic reserve. You know, in the USA the G3Ax costs ca. 7000-8000USD, the self-loding version G3 i.e. HK91 (or HK41) ca. 2500USD. So, if the Germans altered them to the HK91 or HK41 version, and sell them for, let say... only 1000USD each, then Germany might earn 1000 x 100 000 = 100 000 000USD. Naturally Bundeswehr had to pay for the scraping of guns. How you should call it, maybe Deutsche Wirtschaft?

The second funny thing is that only Bundesmarine thought a little bit, so the order was - to destroy all the rifles, and they done it. But first, they disassembled the rifles, take the butts and foregrips apart and sold them on the free market... And they hadn't pay anything for scrapping, furthermore they even make a profit!

So tell me more about the richest army on the Earth, ok? ;)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2078rank.html
We can afford it!;) These numbers are old Germany is #1 in export.

[Javehn]

]http://army.ca/album/Vehicles/International/XM1_Abrams.JPG

Wuts that?

XM1 , the prototype of M1A1 .

For sake of interest , what German did with the Leo 1 ?

[seventy6er]

For sake of interest , what German did with the Leo 1 ?

According to the official German Army website, all of the Bundeswehr's Leopard1A5 are mothballed and stored in big depots. There are quite some nations who have interest in buying the Leos cause even though they're only Leo1A5, they're better than a lot of other nations MBT's...

[aeternum]

About "Leopard 3":
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_leopard_2_a6-a.htm


Es wird ganz offensichtlich keinen Kampfpanzer Leopard 3 geben. Brigadegeneral Wolf-Dieter Langheld, General der Gepanzerten Kampftruppen und Kommandeur der Panzertruppenschule kündigte noch für dieses Jahr eine Initiative an, »in der ein neues Gefechtssystem für die Panzertruppe gefordert wird, ein System, das keine Weiterentwicklung des heutigen Kampfpanzers Leopard 2 A6 hin zum Leopard 3 sein wird, sondern vielmehr ein System, das mit anderen gemeinsam Ziele aufklären und entweder selbst oder im Verbund mit anderen Systemen bekämpfen können wird.« Es müsse die Fähigkeiten des Kampfpanzers von heute abdecken, ohne zugleich über 70 Tonnen zu wiegen. Grundsätzlich müsse das neue Gefechtssystem ähnliche Fähigkeiten haben wie heute der Leopard 2 A6, aber es müsse aus den Erfahrungen der Einsätze der vergangenen Jahre deutlich leichter werden. Auch Fragen nach dem Kaliber müssten gestellt werden. Es sei an ein Waffensystem (oder eine Familie) zu denken, das über hohe Durchsetzungsfähigkeit und einen guten Schutz verfüge und so vielseitig sei, dass es in Konflikten der Kategorien »low« bis »high« einsetzbar ist. Bei einem Basisfahrzeug sei u.u. eine geringere Schutzstufe zu akzeptieren. Nach Langheld wird damit »eine durchaus revolutionäre Entwicklung eingeläutet. Wir müssen mit dem Nachdenken beginnen.«


You don't speak German?

Oooooh :(

I know this statement, and the idea is to use the new PUMA platform for such a Weapon-System and building a own german FCS.


Beispielhaft werden die drei fundamentalen Forderungen im Schlüssel-Projekt des Heeres, dem Schützenpanzer Puma, umgesetzt. Er setzt durch moderne Bewaffnung und Sensorik sowie einem der jeweiligen Gefährdung anzupassenden modularen Schutz Maßstäbe. Sein Einsatz ist sowohl im Rahmen der mittleren wie der schweren Kräfte zusammen mit dem Leopard 2 möglich. Hier entsteht eine zentrale Plattform, im Prinzip mit dem Future Combat System FCS (Gefechtssystem der Zukunft) der U.S. Army vergleichbar. Die Basis-Version kann ein »System of Systems« werden. Der Kampfpanzer Leopard 2 wird nach erfolgten Kampfwertsteigerungen zur Version A6 und dem dringend erforderlichen Minenschutz modern bleiben. Allerdings ist langfristig an ein neues Gefechtsfahrzeug zu denken, dass auch die Aufgaben eines klassischen Kampfpanzers zu übernehmen hat.
http://www.europaeische-sicherheit.de/Rel/2003_10/2003.10,03,02.html

[Wacko]

The Leopard 2 seems to be the best Tank in the world. I think it is. Abrams might be good as Leopard. I'm not sure. Challanger is a damn good tank too.

[seventy6er]

Nice post, vaco! :roll:

[Javehn]

For sake of interest , what German did with the Leo 1 ?

According to the official German Army website, all of the Bundeswehr's Leopard1A5 are mothballed and stored in big depots. There are quite some nations who have interest in buying the Leos cause even though they're only Leo1A5, they're better than a lot of other nations MBT's...

So why instead of giving to Poland it's Leo1 , they giving Leo 2 , and moth balling the Leo1 ? Leo1 is old outdated tank , strange ..

To Vaco , Leo 2a6 is a great tank . . But when experience US tankers team will roll over one on one on BP against German Leo2A6 team , US tankers will fire the shell first ...

And the gratest tank in the world is .... not Leo . Something much better then it exist , trully magnificant beast .

[seventy6er]

To Vaco , Leo 2a6 is a great tank . . But when experience US tankers team will roll over one on one on BP against German Leo2A6 team , US tankers will fire the shell first ...


I wouldn't be so sure about that. US tankers regularly get some nice ass-kicking by german MBT-crews at Grafenwöhr or other training-grounds.




And the gratest tank in the world is .... not Leo . Something much better then it exist , trully magnificant beast .

The Merkava... Of course. What else. :cantbeli:

[He219]

Yeah Javhn, but it has the heart and muscles of the Leo2 because your Merkava uses the German Engine and Transmission, the GD883 diesel engine paired with Renk RK325 automatic transmission; Merkava Mk4 powerpack. To be technical the Leo2 uses the MTU MB 873 Diesel engine and a Renk HSWL 354 gear and break system. An enhanced version of the EuroPowerPack, with a 1,210kW (1,650shp) MTU MT883 engine, has been trialled on the Leopard 2. (Leo2 (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/index.html) / Mekava Mk4 (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/))

I do like the Merkava 4 design - Such a Sexy Beast!

:P


Edit: Oh I forgot, I believe the 120mm smoothbore are all derivatives of the same German Ruhrstahl Cannon - each country derived their own version of it and incorporates their own fire-control systems ....

I think ...... REMOV?

:D

[Javehn]

Sorry , i have sentiments for it , i served on the beast .

About the transmittion and mottor , don't let me get started . 120 mm is Israeli made bore , no need for REMOV here . And maybe you mean Reinmetal , not Ruhnstal ? rofl


I wouldn't be so sure about that. US tankers regularly get some nice ass-kicking by german MBT-crews at Grafenwöhr or other training-grounds.

You happend to know something more about it, that you can tell ?

[seventy6er]

Unfortunately, there aren't any annual armor-competitions going on since the end of the 90s, I think.

Back then, there were competitions for NATO-tank-crews, for example the "CAT" (Canadian Army Trophy For Tank Gunnery).

If you look at the results from the last CAT (1989) HERE (http://www.3ad.org/cat_teams/cat_89/cat_89_%20results.htm), you would see, that German tank-crews performed formidable (5 german platoons in the Top10-ranking, including place 2, 3, 4. 5 and 8). Ok, that particular example was 15 years ago; but training hasn't changed since then. The tanks have - there were major improvements both on US side, as well as on the German side.

[Javehn]

Hmm , very interesting . We had something of that kind with Americans . They didn't take it well ... :) if you know what i mean .

But i am not talking about the quallity of tanks. I am more then shure , that LEO2A6 is magnificant tank ,i am saying that US tankers had more combat experience then they German counterparts .It gives them advantage over the German tankers , if they would met once on the field .

[seventy6er]

i am saying that US tankers had more combat experience then they German counterparts .It gives them advantage over the German tankers , if they would met once on the field .

Of course, the US-tankers have more real combat-experience. But I really doubt, that it would be an advantage for them on the battlefield.

Please don't get me wrong, I have a hellovalut respect for every US-soldier, but US-tank-crews only have combat-experience against cannon-fodder. I guarantee you that every other NATO-member would have performed well against an army with soviet-type tanks (T-72/T-55/T54)...

You as a former tanker know that for yourself: it would all be VERY different if they had to go to war with REAL enemy MBT-forces...

[He219]

You got me Javehn, it is Rheinmetall not Ruhrstah, hehe -- you know what I mean ...
:D

However, the point is that the M256 smoothbore used on the M1 Abrams was developed by Rheinmetall GmbH of Germany. IMI produces an improved 120mm smooth bore gun , but I do believe it is a tweaked Rheinmetall design. REMOV will probably know ....

;)

[He219]

You as a former tanker know that for yourself: it would all be VERY different if they had to go to war with REAL enemy MBT-forces...

Well my friend, we went up against the best Tanks - the Germans in WWII - with inferior equipment.

Just don't forget about combined assests and close air support!

;)

[seventy6er]

Just don't forget about combined assests and close air support!

;)

I guess we were talking about MBT vs. MBT ;)

And you can't deny that you can't compare the weak Iraqi MBT-force with any modern, western MBT-fleet.

[REMOV]

So why instead of giving to Poland it's Leo1 , they giving Leo 2 , and moth balling the Leo1 ? Simple - because we would refused such gift ;) The Leopard 1 is old, first generation MBT, which life is just ending. I really don't know which country had a tanks so venerable to replace them by 1A5... Shermans or T-34-85 maybe? In Polish army the equivalent of Leopard 1A5 was T-55AM2, which was withdrew in mid 90s.

[REMOV]

IMI produces an improved 120mm smooth bore gun , but I do believe it is a tweaked Rheinmetall design.Well, AFAIK, this is own Israeli design (maybe it would based on other design, but I havn't such informations). You know, He219, not every 120mm smoothbore cannons in the world are German-design ;)

[Javehn]

Yep , i guess that's very good reason . Strange that German give them away almost for free . I mean , they really can afford that ?
Well, it does seems that Polish have quiet a nice mechanic collection going on . A lot of former soviet modificated vehicles . Poland going to addapt itself to NATO level and standarts ?

Ah , and about Merkava bore , well , more or less all 120mm bores are historicly attached together to German L7A3 ? bore . But , however , in our jewish smartness , our bore have the best recoil mechanism (better then M1 and Leo2A6) , and other unic turret - bore characteristics . Bring it on , my precios !!

Someone i knew once had a luck to conduct land navigation without map , on prerooted course , with Bundeswher officer . He said , that once the guy heard it's GPS'less navigation , he turned blue . I took him 4 hours to navigate on 1 hour course.I mean , i don't know if it's exadurated or not , but there is some grain of truth in it ?

[tony6]

Please don't get me wrong, I have a hellovalut respect for every US-soldier, but US-tank-crews only have combat-experience against cannon-fodder. I guarantee you that every other NATO-member would have performed well against an army with soviet-type tanks (T-72/T-55/T54)...
Well-Polish Armor Division in Falaise had worse equipment than Germans and still managed to kick their asses pretty hard:)
I would like to see our Polish Leos crews at the CAT competition.
I bet they would score pretty high.

[seventy6er]

Well-Polish Armor Division in Falaise had worse equipment than Germans and still managed to kick their asses pretty hard:)

I won't post every battle where Germans kicked some major Polish/French/British/US/whatever-ass :roll:

[Javehn]

You have to give respect to Romel "desert fox" . He was great tactitian , he was probably the father of modern desert warfare , and example how to fight away from the main C3 bases (C3 is command control communate , i am not wrong ? ) . How to use correctly the "Iron fist" , close support and combined arms .He gave also a lot of personal example , while fighting with risk to his life , while he could do it from the rear echelon .Good officer , and outstanding soldier .

[REMOV]

I won't post every battle where Germans kicked some major Polish/French/British/US/whatever-assThat's good, you're showing more common sense than my fellow countrymen.

The national pride is a very good feature, but it is also very irritating sometimes, especially when it shows up over and over again in some, well, childish way.

[seventy6er]

The national pride is a very good feature, but it is also very irritating sometimes, especially when it shows up over and over again in some, well, childish way.

If I could, I would present you an award! :hug:

[tony6]

The national pride is a very good feature, but it is also very irritating sometimes, especially when it shows up over and over again in some, well, childish way.
Well-I won't tell anything (remeber Your very "adult" threads about Mr.Kossek in Russia?)
I didn't have nothing wrong on my mind-Falaise is just an example that well trained and highly motivated soldier can overrun his better equipped opponent-that's all.

[marktigger]

can someone post more Leopard pics?

[seventy6er]

Man, you dug out a one-year-old thread just to aks for LEO-pics??!? :lol:


:hug:

[Marmot1]

Man, you dug out a one-year-old thread just to aks for LEO-pics??!? :lol:


:hug:

lol today is this thread anniversary... :-D

[Thor]

Ah yes, the famous Leopard 2.

Some of you might already know this, and it should come as no surprise to every non-Finnish member of this board, but we actually paid several times more of these Leopard 2's than Poland did, some theories indicate that Poland got them cheaper because they were a NATO member and/or because Germany needed to place "something heavy" between the Russians and Germany in case of a conflict.

This "Leopard 2 price issue" has been a very heated topic of discussion here, not to mention that Greece (was is it Greece?) paid alot more than Finland did for these Leopard 2's in turn.

You got used Leopards to a great deal. What are you bitching about?If you want to have new tanks with the latest technology you easily have to pay 10 times more. And it would cost about 3 million euros per tank to uppgrade to A5-standard.

Leopard 2A4 is an old version that Germany (and soon Sweden as well) is getting rid off. In Sweden media has for years accused the army of partly buying second hand tanks that can't be used in a modern conflict.

[rzuk]

I won't post every battle where Germans kicked some major Polish/French/British/US/whatever-assThat's good, you're showing more common sense than my fellow countrymen.

The national pride is a very good feature, but it is also very irritating sometimes, especially when it shows up over and over again in some, well, childish way.

Nic dodac nic ujac ;) (nothing more to say about it)

[anv2]

You got used Leopards to a great deal. What are you bitching about?If you want to have new tanks with the latest technology you easily have to pay 10 times more. And it would cost about 3 million euros per tank to uppgrade to A5-standard.


True. It was a wannabe-scandal created by clueless journalists. At the same time they completely missed the navy's Tuuli-project, which turned out to be a horrible waste of money and time.



Leopard 2A4 is a old version that Germany (and soon Sweden) are getting rid off. In Sweden media has for years accused the army of partly buying second hand tanks that can't be used in a modern conflict.

Eh? 2A4 could use better front turret protection and some electronics updates, but it's hardly obsolete as an MBT.

[Greither]

Yeah-Polish tankers in German tanks...times really change:)

I think thats why Poland got military equipment from Germany as cheaply. In the early 90´s a vast majority of Poles believed Germany to start another war against Poland whitin the next 20 years. That was a big problem for our foreign policy in those days. Giving them excellent weapons to kill us i such a case was a good way to build strongly needed trust among Poles. Those 20 years are over now and I hope fear in Poland of a German invasion is lower nowadays.

[Seek]

nice necro-posting bro...