Quick question bout' Colts

[NotoriousTFB]

I am about to purchase a Colt AR-15, now I am not gonna buy the thing new cause that would set me back a mean 900 bucks, but I am searching the gunbroker site. Now to my suprise, some of the pre ban AR's are asking upwards of $1,500. If I may ask, why is that? What is the difference between a post ban and pre ban Colt AR-15? I saw that they are calling some pre bans the "Green Label", and then there are the accurized models. Some clarifying from you gun pro's would help me out. Thanks... p-)

[Ratamacue]

Pre-Ban weapons are fully-automatic, have flashhiders, are gray in color, and have pistol grips. Post-ban don't.

[Duke]

Okay...I've been shooting guns since I was a kid and since the ban on automatic weapons, which goes back to the Tommy Gun and Al Capone, has the public owned automatics. NEVER for the AR-15!! Now if you file down the firing pin and do a little other tweaking then BOOM you have an automatic.
The difference between the preban and ban is the date of assembly of the rifle's reciever, which is September 13, 1994. Automatic Rat?? Atleast try three round burst for military use.
Post ban cant have a detachable magazine, pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsible, bayonet lug, and grenade launcher.
Notorious you can buy a preban reciever and build from there at a cheaper price than going for an entire preban rifle.

[Ratamacue]

Psstt...the original AR-15, M16, and M16A1 were all full-auto.

I was wrong about a couple things, though. http://www.ak-47.net/legal/preban.html has some details on the 1994 Crime Bill.

[Duke]

Psst, idiot boy, they werent offered to general public. and those that found their way into the hands of the general public, were subsuquently banned. Read some more.

[Ratamacue]

Psst, idiot guy...you're right. SORRY FOR OFFENDING YOU SO! :P

[Duke]

Honestly, If you come on this site offering advice on guns you better know what you're talking about. People can use guns to kill, this isnt airsoft or a videogame notorious is talking about. He wants to buy a .223 firearm. A similar firearm that the DC sniper used. this is serious business. and by offering senseless and stupid replies only infuriates those that know and respect the gun.

[Trigger]

....ask a simple question, get a cat fight. p-)

[NotoriousTFB]

thanks guys, through the mild bickering i was able to find out some stuff, I know for a fact that full auto weapons have been banned since 1934....I was just wondering about the magazines, firing pin, and bolts used inside the weapon, also, when did they start using that funky ass rifle butt on the AR's?

[David]

funky ass rifle butt?

[Smoothie104]

"Post ban cant have a detachable magazine, pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsible, bayonet lug"



Depending on your state (as in most, other than CA) You can't have more than 2 of the above. (I will post complete list later)

Also the gun must contain a certain number of US made parts for it not to be considered imported.

Im out the door at the moment, but I can post the Bill the supsequent laws when I get back.

[NotoriousTFB]

thank's smoothie, your a great help, and I guess funky ass rifle butt isn't exactly proper military term, what I should say, is when did they start putting those four-position buttstocks on the AR-15's, and are those buttstocks available on the civilian versions of the rifle? p-)

[Smoothie104]

No Folding or Collapsible Butt Stocks on Postban. They make a "Fakie" that looks like one, but is not. Its called a "Tele-Style" stock


you can see it @ www. bushmaster.com

Ill be back in bit to post the legalities

[NotoriousTFB]

Do the regular sporter stocks that come with Colt's AR have as much recoil control as the four-position stocks? If not, maybe you could point me in the direction of a nice AR replacement stock that has great recoil control, because I plan on doing some competition shooting, and I have just retired my Remington .243, and wanted to try an AR-15, I have heard good things, but personally don't have much experience with the semi auto platform. Thanks again smooshie.. p-)

[Smoothie104]

Recoil is more affected by the weight and balance of the gun, than by the stock pattern. With the lighter gun seeming to "kick" more. A heavier barrel along with a muzzle brake can achieve "zero climb" especially with a.223 The AR's are good shooters, my friend has a bushmaster shorty and I do like it. If you want to shoot competitively, I wouldnt worry about the shorty tele style stock and short carbine barrel. You will get more muzzle velocity (flatter trajectory and less affected by wind) and accuracy from a longer barrel. Buying a used gun with a shot out barrel wont make for good groups if you are shooting competitively. If you just want to blow up frozen gallon jugs of water, or stop signs, lol thats another story.

As far as spending $900.00? Remeber that this is not a toy, and that you get what you pay for. There are a lot of FAL, and CETME rifles going for around $500.00 but I have read reports of sketchy quality. If it jams, misfires, or blows a case up in your face, you'll get discouraged real quick. Most new Firearms come with a pretty good warranty, some lifetime. Springfield Makes a good warantted M1A (M14), and DSA makes what i hear is pretty much the best affordable FAL out there. www.dsarms.com

In regards to pre-ban and post-pan most of the industry goes by the date that the upper reciever was manufactured. The BATF seems to be split on the idea as to whether its when the reciever was manufactured or when the gun was built. A lot of the firearms you see for sale are refurbished.
The recievers may be new, but the internals, barrel etc are mil surplus, or used and refinished.

A common practice is to by a new reciever, and then buy a used but in excellent condition parts kit and build it up your self. You can save a couple of hundred dollars this way. You can also injure yourself too if you dont know what your doing.

As far as legalites go, the following is a breakdown of the Assult Rifle Ban, this applies to all post-ban weapons listed. I think the pre-ban thing is no big deal. I have a pre-ban AK, guess what, its the same as a post ban except it has a spike bayonet on it.

A few years ago, our government passed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, more commonly known as the 1994 Crime Bill. This law "restricts the manufacture, transfer, and possession of certain 'Semiautomatic Assault Weapons'." So you say, what is a "Semiautomatic Assault Weapon"? The law (Section 921 (a) (30), Title 18 U.S.C.) defines it as so:

Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as;
Norinco, Mitchell, Poly Technologies, Avtomat Kalashinikovs.
Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI, Galil.
Beretta Ar70 (SC-70).
Colt AR-15
Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, FNC.
SWD M-10, M-11, M-11-9, M-12.
Steyr AUG.
Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22.
Revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12.
Any semiautomatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:
a folding or telescoping stock.
a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
a bayonet mount.
a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor.
a grenade launcher.
A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:
an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.
a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.
a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.
a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded.
a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.
A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following features:
a folding or telescoping stock.
a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds.
an ability to accept a detachable magazine.


Some manufactures get quite creative in trying to skirt these rules. My fave is the SAR-4800 by springfield. They connected the bottom of the pistol grip to the back of the stock and made a "Thumbhole" stock that was deemed legal. It's a good looking and accurate FAL

MORE INFO:

Now you know what a Semiautomatic Assault Weapon (SAW) is, but how do you determine what it is you have or what you can legally buy or make? What is "pre-ban?" What it all boils down to is when the GUN was built. Edward M. Owen, Jr., Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch of the BATF, has this to say:

"Semiautomatic pistols and rifles assembled after September 13, 1994, and possessing two or more of the features listed in [Section 921 (a) (30), Title 18 U.S.C.] are semiautomatic assault weapons as defined. The fact that the receiver may have been manufactured prior to September 13, 1994, is immaterial to classification of a weapon as a semiautomatic assault weapon. Additionally, payment or non-payment of excise tax is also immaterial to classification of a firearm as semiautomatic assault weapon."
What he is stating is, as far as pre-ban and post-ban is concerned, the date of manufacture of the receiver has nothing to do with anything. If your SAW was built into a whole SAW, or in a complete kit form, before Sept. 13, 1994 (The Date), you are the lucky owner of a pre-ban receiver. If the gun was built after this date, or if the receiver was without all of the parts to make a SAW as of The Date, then it is post-ban. Let me give you a few examples...


John Q. Public bought himself an AR-15 receiver in 1988 and put it in his safe. In April 1997, he decided to build it into a rifle. Was it a gun before The Date? No... so he has to build it into a POST-ban firearm.

Mary Mary Quite Contrary buys an AR-15 lower from her dealer who purchased it 7 years ago, built it into a SAW 2 weeks later, and in January '96 tore it apart to sell as components. Did she buy a pre-ban receiver? Yes... it was a SAW before The Date.

Big Bob Bopper finds a respectable dealer at a gun show who is selling "pre-ban AR pistol lowers." The dealer says he bought them before "the Ban" and registered them as pistol lowers, but never built them into anything. Are they pre-ban? No. Are they pistol lowers? Sure...just post-ban pistol lowers. As long as they don't have two or more "Deadly Features" when they are built, they are legal.

Fred Foosball buys a complete semiautomatic assault rifle kit in August 1994, but doesn't assemble it until September 14th, 1994. Is it a legal pre-ban rifle. Yes... it had all (and I mean ALL) of the pieces to make a complete SAW before the ban. BATF accepts this as a complete pre-ban rifle.

Josh the Impaler purchases a Remington 1100 on July 4, 1994 in order to celebrate Independence Day. A year later, he decides that he would like a pistol grip and folding stock added to make it a better home defense gun. Is this legal? No. The shotgun was complete before The Date, but it was not a SAW before the date, and therefore cannot be modified to a SAW after The Date.
All of this makes for some VERY gray areas. But we all must stay within the law as best as we know how. The basic rule of thumb to use is, if you are planning to buy a pre-ban gun or receiver, make sure that the person selling it to you can prove that it was built as a SAW (or in a complete kit form) before The Date. If he or she can't do this, don't buy it!!!!

Many people also believe that a serial number can tell you whether or not a receiver is pre- or post-ban. This is not always the case. For example, if a manufacturer's books show a serial number as being manufactured on August 23, 1994, and also lists that serial number being shipped on September 3, 1994, is this a pre-ban receiver? Well, that information alone will not tell you. If the books only show when a serial number was made and left, we still don't know how it was shipped. Was it a rifle? or a receiver only? did the dealer who purchased it build it into a SAW before The Date? These are all questions that are unanswerable with the provided information, so don't go on these facts alone!


Hope this helps. (information obtained in part from ar15.com)

[NotoriousTFB]

that was probably the best description of the assault weapon ban I have read, that was a great help smoothie, thanks for taking the time to inform me.....by the way, i checked out Springfield Armory, and the M1A looks like a real beaut!

[Duke]

smoothie shouldnt you cite that info