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fox mulder
07-20-2005, 07:06 AM
I'm looking for any pics of the new greek Leo 2. :D

grabie_bis
07-20-2005, 08:01 AM
try Leopard 2 HEL. :cantbeli:

JoaMei
07-20-2005, 08:02 AM
http://www.kmweg.de/img/A6exgel1_news.jpg

Thats one.

http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leomap2.jpg

http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leomap.jpg

http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leo2.jpg

flanker7
07-20-2005, 08:08 AM
Actually you won't find any photos of the Leo2HEL as no one has been completed yet. First delivery early 2006

McLane
07-20-2005, 08:22 AM
How many Leos Greece will get?

easyand
07-20-2005, 09:13 AM
http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leomap2.jpg


This is a Leclerc not a Leo

mountainbear
07-20-2005, 09:21 AM
http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leomap.jpg
Flag of the countries using Leo 2?

You forgot Finland ............................................................................................................................................................................ and Poland!!!!!!

JoaMei
07-20-2005, 09:58 AM
http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leomap2.jpg


This is a Leclerc not a Leo

Was on a Leopard 2 HEL Website, didnt have a close look.

Thor
07-20-2005, 10:20 AM
http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leo2.jpg
If I'm not mistaking that's a swedish Leopard 2S (Strv 122). It was used by KMW in the greek competition and ended up as the overall winner. It could also be an A6 on that picture but why the flag then?

The greeks are spending lots of money on their armed forces. But they get good stuff. :)

mountainbear
07-20-2005, 12:40 PM
Thor
You’re right it’s a Strv 122, the Galix smoke grenade launcher designate it easily compared to the ones fitted on the 2a6 ex.

Backis
07-20-2005, 12:48 PM
If I'm not mistaking that's a swedish Leopard 2A5S (Strv 122). It was used by KMW in the greek competition and ended up as the overall winner. It could also be an A6 on that picture but why the flag then?


That is definately a 122, not an A6. Swedish flag, crew and all. ;)

The easiest way to spot that are the French GALIX smoke/multipurpose launchers, only Swedish Leo has those that I know of (dunno if the 121 were ever refitted).

Even if the 2A6 can carry the L44 gun I've never seen an A6 with it before, this carry the L44.

BTW, the correct KMW designation for the 122 is Leopard 2S, not 2A5S.

edit
Sorry for being slow and nr2 on the GALIX-spotting...

Thor
07-20-2005, 01:03 PM
Ok, thanks for the info. :)

Frank the soldier
07-20-2005, 03:22 PM
Zitat JoaMei :
Was on a Leopard 2 HEL Website,

What is the www. adress at the Leopard2 HEL Website ???

JoaMei
07-20-2005, 03:35 PM
Zitat JoaMei :
Was on a Leopard 2 HEL Website,

What is the www. adress at the Leopard2 HEL Website ???

Just putted "Leopard 2 HEL" into google and looked for greece letters... ;)

signatory
07-20-2005, 03:57 PM
http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leomap.jpg
Flag of the countries using Leo 2?

You forgot Finland ............................................................................................................................................................................ and Poland!!!!!!

Hah. Nah, I believe it's a list of the nations doing the Design work and manufacturing of the LII. (independently or in coop with KMW) In addition to this a new group with Germany-Netherlands-Sweden have been created to coordinate these countries further upgrades of the Leo II system.

As you know the Swedish upgrades were plenty... and very successful as indeed noted above with the Greek procurement tests... when KMW took the Swedish design and filed it as their entry. The latest upgrade as far as I know is the mine-protection installed on the Stridsvagn 122,. And the use of Barracuda IR/signature reducing camo from SAAB.

Now I hope to see the new awesome MTU engine soon :)

Frank the soldier
07-20-2005, 04:01 PM
Where have did pictures from the manufacture KMWEG,Munich.
(hall of assembly Leopard 2 / or assembley Rheinmetall Kassel,Germany --> lines GTK,Weasel and others )
Thanks

hedgehog
07-20-2005, 05:51 PM
Greece will get 333 Leos

Government Foreign Affairs and Defence Council Decides to Purchase 30 F-16 Warplanes and 333 Leopard Tanks


(Source: Athens News Agency; issued July 20, 2005)


The Government Foreign Affairs and Defence Council (KYSEA) decided to purchase 30 F-16 Block-52 warplanes with the option of purchasing an additional 10 of this type to meet the air force's immediate operational needs, during its meeting chaired by Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis on Tuesday. It also approved the procurement of 333 Leopard tanks.

The agreement for the purchase of the aircraft will be signed by the governments of Greece and the United States, while that for the tanks between the governments of Greece and Germany, as the defence minister clarified.

The cost of the warplanes, in current prices according to the minister, amounts to 1.1 billion euros but the final amount will depend on negotiations with the American side and offset benefits will concern infrastructures and support for the rest of the F-16s belonging to the Greek air force.

As regards the new fighter aircraft, whose procurement lies in the year 2009, the minister said the proposal by the defence ministry is for the purchase of 30 new aircraft with an option for the purchase of another 10. The minister clarified that the type of aircraft has not been decided.

KYSEA also approved the new structure of forces and the new structure for the armed forces' administration to enable them to become more flexible and effective and to have a greater rapid reaction ability, as the minister said, while he also appointed the new leadership of military justice.

Frank the soldier
07-21-2005, 04:13 PM
a picture from the Production Line Leopard 2 KMWEG,Munich

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/FrankBaunach/Leopard2ProduktionKMWEGBild1.jpg

Frank the soldier
07-21-2005, 04:16 PM
What is this Version of Leopard 2 ???

Laserwarner on the Turm ???
What is on the right side ???
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/FrankBaunach/Leopard2PT2005Bild1.jpg

Adam Wilhelm
07-21-2005, 05:28 PM
On the right side is GALIX smoke/multipurpose launcher.
And the Laserwarners is sensors to the SimFire-system i believe.

Frank the soldier
07-21-2005, 05:39 PM
Galix-System.
Is it the self system like french LeClerc ???

Because the german IDB Deisenroth is designed the system Active Defense System (ADS ).

Frank the soldier
07-24-2005, 05:13 PM
Where get the Greek-Version built ???

Frank the soldier
08-29-2005, 05:17 PM
In the Greek Military Newspaper Ptisi (www.ptisi.gr) is at the side 160 (heft 240) the new Leopard 2 HEL .
Please who can scan this side with the pic ???

gbos
08-30-2005, 07:12 AM
Bad picture quality but anyway this is the first build Leo2 HEL. ;)

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/565_1125400111_1stleo2.jpg

GREEK71AIRBORNE
08-30-2005, 07:23 AM
Its a photoshop job, which i made but still thats how the nee Leo2A6HEL would like (except maybe the camo)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/GREEK-AIRBORNE/ENOPLES%20DYNAMEIS/leo2_A6_HELLAS.jpg

Luno
08-30-2005, 07:43 AM
Sorry for hijacking the thread but i think the Leo2A6HEL is using the smae system :-) I did have the opportunity to take a closer look at the Leopard 2S and talking to the comander.he told me that the commander hatch where opened using a crank .
Is that the only why to open it? Why don’t it have a electric engine for that job and the crank for emergency’s.

Picture taken by me on the commander hatch notice how thick the hatch is.
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3420/leo7ja.jpg

Original size
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2113/dscn09661gl.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn09661gl.jpg)

flanker7
08-30-2005, 08:21 AM
The thik hatches are part of the overall top attack protection. Also, the way it opens, by sliding back it's a way of preventing it from being jammed closed in the case os a top attack

Frank the soldier
08-30-2005, 03:14 PM
Foto from Grrek-Airborne / Photoshop fake :

The Greek version will be new. The front like the swedish version or the A5 DK (Dansk). But at the picture the front is like the german version Leopard 2A5 / A6 .

The version hellenic , Spain and swedish are the best armor - Frontside - to time now.

GREEK71AIRBORNE
08-30-2005, 04:20 PM
Foto from Grrek-Airborne / Photoshop fake :

The Greek version will be new. The front like the swedish version or the A5 DK (Dansk). But at the picture the front is like the german version Leopard 2A5 / A6 .

The version hellenic , Spain and swedish are the best armor - Frontside - to time now.

Thats good news for us (Greeks) the Spanish and the Swedish!
woot
Thanks for the info Frank! :hug:

Frank the soldier
08-30-2005, 04:58 PM
The Leopard HEL must be look like : ;)
The front is very heavy armor
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/FrankBaunach/SchwedenSTRV22-Leopard2A62002.jpg

zulu261
08-30-2005, 05:17 PM
So Germany exports a better version of the A6 then they use by themselfes? omg...

Frank the soldier
08-30-2005, 05:23 PM
CoRe :
So Germany exports a better version of the A6 then they use by themselfes? omg...

Yes , the German Government saving money.
That is a desaster for the troops and the military industries .
The Golden Time / the 80er years are over.
Look the Helikopters. They are old and old and old. and the new NH90 ???
we wait and wait and wait ........

gbos
09-20-2005, 12:21 PM
woot The first one making field tests .....

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/565_1127233208_leo_2_hel.jpg

flanker7
09-20-2005, 01:07 PM
woot

Frank the soldier
09-20-2005, 02:02 PM
They look great !!!

Before the driver-place, what is that for a paneel , ??? That is new.
No other Leopard in the world had this. What is it

McLane
09-20-2005, 02:48 PM
the turret looks even bigger to me... and it looks great. german tanks rocks.... how many Leo II were built at least? 2500-3000?

seventy6er
09-20-2005, 03:38 PM
the turret looks even bigger to me... and it looks great. german tanks rocks.... how many Leo II were built at least? 2500-3000?

I'd say at least 3.000...

Germany alone had more than 2.000 fielded. Although we now only have about 1.000 left, of which 350 are A6.

Frank the soldier
09-20-2005, 03:48 PM
And the German Leopard 2 was finished in this hall , by
KMWEG (Krauss-Maffei-Wegmann ) in Munic,Germany

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/FrankBaunach/Leopard2ProduktionKMWEGBild1.jpg

flanker7
09-20-2005, 04:21 PM
They look great !!!

Before the driver-place, what is that for a paneel , ??? That is new.
No other Leopard in the world had this. What is it

Greece chose the full armor package, except mine protection due to very high cost.


A question now: it looks like there is a MG ring on the commanders hatch, unlike other Leo2A5/A6. Can anyone confirm this?

Frank the soldier
09-20-2005, 04:33 PM
There is at all Leopard 2 A6 a ring at the commander and the Ladeschütze hatch .
Look this pic :
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/Eurocopter/Leopard2A6Ansichtvonoben-1.jpg

flanker7
09-20-2005, 04:35 PM
Sorry, I meant with the sliding hatches, not the classic ones. for the tanks that have the improved top armour

GREEK71AIRBORNE
09-20-2005, 05:38 PM
Fantastic picture!!
woot
Nice job Gbos!
:hug:

kk111
09-20-2005, 07:24 PM
german tanks rocks....

woot p-)

the leo-hel looks very good. :P

beleg
09-21-2005, 04:12 AM
CoRe :
So Germany exports a better version of the A6 then they use by themselfes? omg...

Yes , the German Government saving money.
That is a desaster for the troops and the military industries .
The Golden Time / the 80er years are over.
Look the Helikopters. They are old and old and old. and the new NH90 ???
we wait and wait and wait ........

Oh well you could have sold a thousand of those babes to us (Turkish Army).. But now its too late :D

Clearday-TRForce
09-21-2005, 04:17 AM
CoRe :
So Germany exports a better version of the A6 then they use by themselfes? omg...

Yes , the German Government saving money.
That is a desaster for the troops and the military industries .
The Golden Time / the 80er years are over.
Look the Helikopters. They are old and old and old. and the new NH90 ???
we wait and wait and wait ........

Oh well you could have sold a thousand of those babes to us (Turkish Army).. But now its too late :D


:lol: too much late...very bad decision from their leaders...think what s benefit of thousands Leo2 and their future modernization costs to german economy!!! :lol:

kk111
09-21-2005, 12:12 PM
build your own ****. ;) :lol:

Clearday-TRForce
09-21-2005, 01:40 PM
build your own ****. ;) :lol:


and forget ur money increase and keep up ur bad economical perspectives... ;) :lol:

JoaMei
09-21-2005, 02:10 PM
Should be interesting to see the turkish tank project soon, its their first try...

gbos
09-22-2005, 04:05 AM
build your own ****. ;) :lol:


and forget ur money increase and keep up ur bad economical perspectives... ;) :lol:

If Turkey could afford to buy 1000 tanks why didn’t buy M1s or Leclercs?. There weren’t any political reasons for those.

The more realistic scenario now is that you will buy some used M1s. As for ‘building’ your own tank you have underestimated R&D cost. Even nations with huge industries and tradition in building tanks have difficulties in building a new design with reasonable cost. You could buy a new design from an established industry and produce big parts of it locally but this option is also expensive and it will not make it a Turkish tank because it will not give you know-how for the most critical parts.

We followed the most reasonable road with Leo2-HEL. We bought the best available tank for our needs and we produce locally the parts of it that are easy to produce without making huge investments in infrastructure.

For example METKA produces some parts locally ....


http://www.metka.gr/images/leopard_1.jpg

http://www.metka.gr/images/leopard_2.jpg

GREEK71AIRBORNE
09-22-2005, 05:56 AM
@ArmyReco , some rumors say that in thessaloniki in 28th Octomber military parade there will be some Leo2A4 which will participate! Its not sure, but a great possibility!

ArmyReco
09-23-2005, 03:32 AM
Hello,

I hope that have the time to make a photographs report about this parade.

Many people, say me this parade is very nice with lot of vehicles and equipment of Hellenic Forces.
Can you confirm ?

Greetings.

Alain

gbos
10-14-2005, 02:58 AM
Enjoy .........

http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/8524/leop1c1nu.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/699/leop2c0eg.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/9533/leop32mi.jpg

turan8
10-14-2005, 03:27 AM
I'm not at all critisizing greeks, this for the most part looks like an excellent tank. But It looks like there is a substantial shot trap in the front turrent sloped plates on the Leo 2A6. This caused many problems for the israelis during the six days war and later Merkavas had chains put on the rear of the turrent bustle. This is made worse in my opinion because its in the front of the tank; the most likely place to get shot. It appear that if a shot is incoming on the front glacis armor that it will merely be deflected into this shot trap and do more damage. Do you know if the greeks are planning to put similar chains as the israelis did on the turret bustle, in the front of the leo 2?

JoaMei
10-14-2005, 03:32 AM
I have to say the Camo looks a bit ....strange.... p-)

gbos
10-14-2005, 03:49 AM
I have to say the Camo looks a bit ....strange.... p-)

Not exactly. That is intermat's camo. It's perfect for the terrain that the vehicle will operate + it has anti thermal properties.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4151/20050109220345tt.jpg

@turan: sabot rounds don't reflect at the surface of the slope. Slope armor has a different purpose.

MIT Caltech
10-14-2005, 03:55 AM
Leopard is probably the bast tank around today.

Michael RVR
10-14-2005, 03:59 AM
Hey gbos, what book / magazine did you get those pics from ?

Thor
10-14-2005, 04:02 AM
I'm not at all critisizing greeks, this for the most part looks like an excellent tank. But It looks like there is a substantial shot trap in the front turrent sloped plates on the Leo 2A6. This caused many problems for the israelis during the six days war and later Merkavas had chains put on the rear of the turrent bustle. This is made worse in my opinion because its in the front of the tank; the most likely place to get shot. It appear that if a shot is incoming on the front glacis armor that it will merely be deflected into this shot trap and do more damage. Do you know if the greeks are planning to put similar chains as the israelis did on the turret bustle, in the front of the leo 2?
I believe the design is tested and "shot trap proof".

gbos
10-14-2005, 04:10 AM
Hey gbos, what book / magazine did you get those pics from ?

I have seen them in another forum and the guy who uploads them took them from the Greek magazine Amyntiki Epitheorisi (Defense review). I was surprised because I didn't expect any to arive in 2005. According to the quote in the picture the first arrived on October 5th.

turan8
10-14-2005, 04:46 AM
I believe the design is tested and "shot trap proof".

Do you have these tests? I would be interested in seeing the results and seeing how it performs against other tanks with less of a distance between the bottom of the turret and the glacis plate such as the challenger 2. I wouldn't think the Leo 2 turret ring could be armored beyond any other tank and a shot trap is almost always fatal for any tank because there is no armor at that joint.

larryzou
10-14-2005, 05:11 AM
more big one pleas thinks .

achilles
10-14-2005, 05:14 AM
I have seen them in another forum and the guy who uploads them took them from the Greek magazine Amyntiki Epitheorisi (Defense review). I was surprised because I didn't expect any to arive in 2005. According to the quote in the picture the first arrived on October 5th.


Thats a nice machine, the new camo is freaking nice...

Κάπου σε μία λεζάντα λέει κάτι για μεμετικά άρματα. Μπορείς να ποστάρεις τί ακριβώς λέει? Κάνει σύγκριση με τα άρματα των ξεβράκωτων?

Nice job gbos, thanks!

gbos
10-14-2005, 05:45 AM
Hey gbos, what book / magazine did you get those pics from ?

Here it is ...

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/433/amyntikic7eb.jpg

ArmyReco
10-14-2005, 06:31 AM
Hello,

Leopard 2 are not yet use by the Hellenic Army. This is laste info about the delivery of Leopard for Hellenic Army.

See :

http://www.********************/News/2005/September/Military_News_September_2005_UK.htm

Greetings.

Alain

gbos
10-14-2005, 06:50 AM
Army Reco the first one has already arrived in Greece and its performing tests in Litochoro firing range. The tests include firings from the L55 gun against a leo2 turret.

dustdevil
10-14-2005, 07:40 AM
Nice camo pattern but what's the story behing this photo:


http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4151/20050109220345tt.jpg


Was it taken in Greece?

Is number 2 supposed to be a hot tank? What about number 1, is it also a Leopard 2 tank?


Fcuking unbelievable and awesome if this coating masks the tank from a thermal viewer... Think all of the the poor anti-tank helicopters and missiles man!

gbos
10-14-2005, 07:45 AM
The tank in the photo uses the same camo coatings as the new LEO2HEL. You can find more info in the company's homepage....

http://www.intermat.gr/targets.php?sub=17

gbos
10-14-2005, 07:56 AM
more big one pleas thinks .

:-) Sorry man but I have no more pics. Here is one of the previous with a bigger resolution.....

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/3866/leop12ss.th.jpg (http://img437.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leop12ss.jpg)

And here is the console of the tank command and control system...

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4507/tccs4lo.jpg

dustdevil
10-14-2005, 07:59 AM
Really groundbreaking, thanks for the link..

drGreen
10-14-2005, 08:06 AM
this topic is rmm!

try the search button lads...

Luno
10-14-2005, 08:10 AM
this topic is rmm!

try the search button lads...
Why don’t you Try it and see if you can find the original thread ;-)



Greek
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/search.php?searchid=5516


Leopard
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/search.php?searchid=5513

achilles
10-14-2005, 08:20 AM
this topic is rmm!

try the search button lads...

And you remembered that after 9 pages and almost 9000 views? thumbs up man...:lol:

Inconnu
10-14-2005, 08:30 AM
http://skopia.digitalrice.com/images/leomap2.jpg


This is a Leclerc not a Leo


No
Leclerc is 100 % French !!!

GREEK71AIRBORNE
10-14-2005, 06:10 PM
Thats a nice machine, the new camo is freaking nice...

Κάπου σε μία λεζάντα λέει κάτι για μεμετικά άρματα. Μπορείς να ποστάρεις τί ακριβώς λέει? Κάνει σύγκριση με τα άρματα των ξεβράκωτων?

Nice job gbos, thanks!

@Achiles σου παραθέτω την Λεζάντα όπως ακριβός είναι
"Πλευρική όψη του ισχυρότερου άρματος μάχης στον κόσμο, το οποίο φέρει ελληνικά εθνόσημα και είναι το μοναδικό του τύπου. Τα Leopard 2ΗΕL θα συγκροτήσουν την καλύτερη (ποιοτηκά) τεθωρακισμένη δύναμη στην ανατολική Μεσόγειο. Η θωράκιση τους είναι αδύνατον να διατρηθεί απο οποιοδήποτε σημερινό τουρκικό άρμα"

It says that the Leo2A6HEL is the Best Tank in the Word, and Greece will have the Best (in Quality) Armored Force in Eastern Mediterenean. The Armor is imposible to break from any todays Turkish Tank :)

JoaMei
10-14-2005, 08:38 PM
Do you have these tests? I would be interested in seeing the results and seeing how it performs against other tanks with less of a distance between the bottom of the turret and the glacis plate such as the challenger 2. I wouldn't think the Leo 2 turret ring could be armored beyond any other tank and a shot trap is almost always fatal for any tank because there is no armor at that joint.

There is no shot trap, the original Front Armor but not the add on goes down into the Hull. In addition to that Sabots "Bite" even at highly angled Armor and arent deflected, its unlikely. It they are deflected they brake.

turan8
10-14-2005, 10:49 PM
Well I'm not talking aobut the hull itself. I'm say that inbetween the turrent and hull in the front of the tank it looks like a big shot trap. Do you have the tests anyways, or some article that mentions the tests?

ENSIGN FOREVER
10-15-2005, 12:30 AM
ONE WORD: WOW!!!!!

Still it is a 20 year old design that is as modern as anything. But I wonder what the Germans have on the drawing board?
p-)

saigonsmuggler
10-15-2005, 01:13 AM
Very impressive tank! doing so good on the Euro export market.

gbos
10-15-2005, 03:28 AM
Well I'm not talking aobut the hull itself. I'm say that inbetween the turrent and hull in the front of the tank it looks like a big shot trap. Do you have the tests anyways, or some article that mentions the tests?

:) For one more time, sabot rounds don't deflect on the surface of the slope. The slope is designed to absorb the sabot round energy in an efficient way and reduce its penetration ability. There is not a shot trap effect.

gbos
10-15-2005, 03:36 AM
ONE WORD: WOW!!!!!

Still it is a 20 year old design that is as modern as anything. But I wonder what the Germans have on the drawing board?
p-)

:) They already have put the L55 gun on their design so I doubt they are in a hurry to go back on the drawing board. Ze Zermans will wait till the others catch up ;).

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5873/rheinmetallnew120mml5525ke.gif

turan8
10-15-2005, 04:20 AM
:) For one more time, sabot rounds don't deflect on the surface of the slope. The slope is designed to absorb the sabot round energy in an efficient way and reduce its penetration ability. There is not a shot trap effect.

I'm not talking about sabot rounds. For one thing, the Greeks won't likely face many countries that use saboted ammunition. Most likely Greece will encounter countries that use ATGMs and 105mm & 125mm tank cannons. I'm talking about either HEAT or HESH rounds. If this strikes the glacis plate at all it looks like it'll get deflected into the area between the turrent and the hull. AGAIN, is there any way that I can see the tests where this was proven untrue? Or a mention of it in a reputable defense journal or something?

S.H.P.D
10-15-2005, 07:11 AM
It has become Eurotank!!!

jmcmtank
10-15-2005, 01:29 PM
It has become Eurotank!!!
And here (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=735647&C=commentary) is why.


How dramatic the Army’s transformation really is can be seen in Structure 2010, to be adopted as of 2007. The service will reduce its fleet of main battle tanks from 2,528 to 350, infantry fighting vehicles from 2,077 to 410, artillery pieces from 1,055 to 120 and helicopters from 530 to 240.

JoaMei
10-15-2005, 02:01 PM
I'm not talking about sabot rounds. For one thing, the Greeks won't likely face many countries that use saboted ammunition. Most likely Greece will encounter countries that use ATGMs and 105mm & 125mm tank cannons. I'm talking about either HEAT or HESH rounds. If this strikes the glacis plate at all it looks like it'll get deflected into the area between the turrent and the hull. AGAIN, is there any way that I can see the tests where this was proven untrue? Or a mention of it in a reputable defense journal or something?

To ask vice versa, is there any mention in a reputable defense journal or something that mentions any points of your Shottrap theory?

There is the Tank interiour Pics thread here in the Forum, there are some nice Pics of the Armor construction of the Leo 2.

To answer your your qestion, a HEAT, ATGM or HESH Round will be ignited at the same Moment it hits anything including a highly angeled armor. For example if it would strike the upper plate and be deflected(But thats not the case) these rounds would be completely useles, you understand?

105mm & 125mm Tank cannons ARE USING Sabots too, do you really think they still use old KE-Rounds that have the full muzzle diameter??????

Which army Greece could encounter does not use Saboted Ammo today????

ENSIGN FOREVER
10-15-2005, 03:50 PM
And here (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=735647&C=commentary) is why.

Why not just dismantle the Armed Forces? With such a puny force it just does make sense to have 300 tanks. That would be a waste of time, so just demilitarize!

:bash:
HEEL 'HEER'!!
HEEL!!

turan8
10-15-2005, 06:19 PM
To ask vice versa, is there any mention in a reputable defense journal or something that mentions any points of your Shottrap theory?

There is the Tank interiour Pics thread here in the Forum, there are some nice Pics of the Armor construction of the Leo 2.

To answer your your qestion, a HEAT, ATGM or HESH Round will be ignited at the same Moment it hits anything including a highly angeled armor. For example if it would strike the upper plate and be deflected(But thats not the case) these rounds would be completely useles, you understand?

105mm & 125mm Tank cannons ARE USING Sabots too, do you really think they still use old KE-Rounds that have the full muzzle diameter??????

Which army Greece could encounter does not use Saboted Ammo today????

Well, Every tank has a shottrap, the difference is that it is usually located under the bustle in most tanks, Its not really a theory as much as hard science. It looks like there is a significant shot trap in the leo 2a5-a6. All that means is that there is an effect that contains the trajectory of a round and directs its flight to the most vital area on a tank; the link between the hull and the turret. To look a the "theory" as you call it, look at the Merkava tank.

In the Mark 2, 3, and 4 versions of the tank, there are balls suspended by chains in the bustle because the Israelis experienced significant losses by ATGM rounds hitting the area below bustle which it turned out as the weakest part of the tank. Subsequent tank designs to the Merkava mark 1 in many other nations that have actually war-fighting experience such as the United States, Britain, and Russia have reduced the shot traps by decreasing the distance between the bustle over hangs and the hull in the rear and in the front by decreasing the seperation of the turrent frontal armor and the glacis place.

Frankly, I suspect you don't have the tests done on the Leo-2a5/a6 because there haven't been any done. That's okay, but please don't lie about it.

Also I disagree with the statement: "To answer your your qestion, a HEAT, ATGM or HESH Round will be ignited at the same Moment it hits anything including a highly angeled armor. For example if it would strike the upper plate and be deflected(But thats not the case) these rounds would be completely useles, you understand?"

If you knew your tank rounds (you may or may not) you'd know that HEAT rounds especially use a probe for detonation. A hit by a HEAT round on a highly angled glacis plate will not detonate the HEAT round because the side of the round will hit the plate before the probe does. Therefore it won't detonate until it is deflected into the shot trap. HESH rounds do this to a lesser degree because there detonater is integral into the round, but the effect is the same; a highly angled glacis plate like that on the Leo-2 will deflect the round into the area between the turrent and glacis plate. The challenger, m1a1, and challenger 2 are tanks that have specifically addressed this problem by having the frontal armor on the turret extend all the way down to the turret ring.

gbos
10-16-2005, 03:18 AM
Turan, doesn’t trouble you that out of all of the military experts that have examined the leo2 armor all these years you are the only one that thinks a 105mm or 120mm heat round can penetrate the frontal armor of the tank? Even if you can design whatever bounce you want, even if you can choose whatever alignment for the HEAT round liner after the bounce and even if you can control the exact moment of the round’s detonation there is no way to reach the ring of the turret.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2994/leo2a5r8ge.gif

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9974/2a5turret6hu.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9675/leopard2a5105ne.jpg

SEAHAWK
10-16-2005, 05:57 AM
Turan, doesn’t trouble you that out of all of the military experts that have examined the leo2 armor all these years you are the only one that thinks a 105mm or 120mm heat round can penetrate the frontal armor of the tank? Even if you can design whatever bounce you want, even if you can choose whatever alignment for the HEAT round liner after the bounce and even if you can control the exact moment of the round’s detonation there is no way to reach the ring of the turret.

If there is no test results, you can't exactly say "you can't penetrate the front armour". And I think even a sabot round can penetrate the armour. Cause we're talking about (I guess) 2500m or less.

We have a test result about T-84 so we can easily say "yes" or "no", but there is no test result about Leopard 2.

gbos
10-16-2005, 10:46 AM
If there is no test results, you can't exactly say "you can't penetrate the front armour". And I think even a sabot round can penetrate the armour. Cause we're talking about (I guess) 2500m or less.

We have a test result about T-84 so we can easily say "yes" or "no", but there is no test result about Leopard 2.

First off all the argument was if there is a ‘shot trap effect’ from the V shaped add-on armor on the turret of the leo2 (from version Leo2a5 onwards). My answer is there isn’t one and the only guy that mentions a ‘shot trap effect’ is turan. Let’s see what credible armor analysts say about the matter …..

Quote from Paul Lakowski’s ‘Armor Technology’ on the impact of the additional slope armor on the turret of Leo2a5

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/821/dock4vu.gif

So no mention of ‘trap effect’ and in fact that additional slope armor greatly amplifies armor performance against HEAT rounds.


And I think even a sabot round can penetrate the armour.

What do you mean??? Of course sabot rounds are the only ones that have good chances against modern tank armor. Sabot rounds are far more effective against tanks than HEAT rounds in ‘normal’ combat ranges.


If there is no test results, you can't exactly say "you can't penetrate the front armour".

Off course there are firing tests against Leo2 armor but you don’t seriously really expect them to be disclosed on the internet. However from the facts known about the thickness of the armor, the materials and the technology used, relatively accurate estimates can be calculated. The penetration ability of every 105mm round falls far bellow those estimates about the frontal armor of the LEO2A5 – A6 as it is the case also about the penetration ability of 120mm HEAT rounds.

CRTS27
10-16-2005, 12:04 PM
Let me clear something.
As Turan said Every tank hat a shottrap.
The solution on Leopard2 is this steel bar i marked with red.
At Leo 2 A5/A6 the Drivers hatch is also new to give more roof protection.
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6097/unbenannt10jo.jpg

JoaMei
10-16-2005, 12:35 PM
@turan8

1. There have been a lot of tests about the Leopard Armor, but for obvious reasons they are secret. Even all tests the German army did on T-72 Armor are secret, just as any other testing the german army does.

2. The Probes on Heat Rounds are for using the Hollow charge at optimum standoff range to form the metal jet. But the igniter is in the backside of these Warheads and will react on any impact even its only the side of the round. You get it? It will explode but not with optimal performance because of wrong distance.

I will quote you on this. p-)


If you knew your tank rounds (you may or may not) you'd know [...]

3. The Chains on the Merkava are for additional protection of the weak armored backside, it has nothig to do with your shottrap theory.

Look at the Merkava 4, why should they build the front armor like it is in the newest model when it incorporates a obvious Shottrap?

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/images/Merkava4_6.jpg

The Challenger would have an even bigger shottrap than the Leopard when everything that hits the Frontplate of the Hull is deflected under the Turret. But its not the case because you theory is WRONG!

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/challenger2/images/chal1.jpg

Judging by your statement potential enemys would fire full caliber AP-Rounds which are outdated since the End of WW2(First Sabot rounds were used by the US Army) and your lacking knowledge about how Heat Rounds work, Id like to know where your knowledge comes from?

The Shottrap theory might work for WW2 Ammo and armor but not for modern Tanks.

thenight
10-17-2005, 04:38 AM
http://s7.invisionfree.com/worldconflictsforum/index.php?showtopic=1856

Here you can find some pics of new Leopard 2HEL for Greek Army

gbos
10-20-2005, 07:42 AM
Enjoy, more to come soon ....

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/571/pytheusatinvisionfree51rz.jpg

dustdevil
10-20-2005, 11:50 AM
The wedge shaped add-on armor on Leo2 A6 turret is empty inside so I don't think it's enough to fully deflect a sabot round, but enough to absorb some energy or deform the penetrator. So, I think, it won't be a shot trap for sabots.

For HEAT rounds, one could get a lucky shot without the wedge armor too (on Leo2 A4..). Maybe it causes the HEAT round to pre-detonate even if it's aimed at the turret-hull intersection.

Frank the soldier
10-20-2005, 01:43 PM
great ,great , great ,
please more pics from the Hellenic Leopard 2 HEL

gbos
10-20-2005, 02:00 PM
:) A bad translation of the previous image caption ......

1. Air conditioning unit
2. Hatch for concealment nets
3. Sensor for temperature and wind velocity
4. GPS antenna
5. Roof armor for commanders periscope
6. Commander’s periscope
7. Commander’s hatch mechanism
8. Gunner’s sights
9. L55 gun
10. Add-on turret armor
11. Add-on synthetic hull armor
12. Tools kit basket
13. 76mm smoke grenade 8-ple launcher
14. Diehl-Hellas type 570ft Track
15. Power auxiliary unit under armor protection
16. Additional smoke grenade box container
17. Engine
18. Driver’s camera for backward movements


And some more photos ......

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/9324/pytheusatinvisionfree73ik.jpg

http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/1778/pytheusatinvisionfree102ky.jpg

http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/8106/pytheusatinvisionfree80zn.jpg

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/8112/pytheusatinvisionfree44kn.jpg

CRTS27
10-20-2005, 02:11 PM
The wedge shaped add-on armor on Leo2 A6 turret is empty inside so I don't think it's enough to fully deflect a sabot round, but enough to absorb some energy or deform the penetrator. So, I think, it won't be a shot trap for sabots.

For HEAT rounds, one could get a lucky shot without the wedge armor too (on Leo2 A4..). Maybe it causes the HEAT round to pre-detonate even if it's aimed at the turret-hull intersection.

Not realy "emtpy"http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/2545/modules013nd.jpg
As you see the differend angles "help" the armour to stop/deflect AP projektiles. SABOT or HEAT.

Frank the soldier
10-20-2005, 05:21 PM
Where can i buy that Magazine ???
or is it a online-version at the internet?

What is the name of the Hellenic-military m magazine ???

GREEK71AIRBORNE
10-20-2005, 06:26 PM
Some more photos of the Hellenic Leo2A6
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/AIRBORNEGR/LEO2_6.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/AIRBORNEGR/LEO2_2.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/AIRBORNEGR/LEO2_3.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/AIRBORNEGR/LEO2_.jpg


Frank the soldier Where can i buy that Magazine ???
or is it a online-version at the internet?

What is the name of the Hellenic-military m magazine ???

The magazine is called "Stratigiki" (Strategy) but i am afraid i dont know if you can find it outside Greece. In Greece you can find it in every Kiosk just like any newspaper and magazine

Dark Avenger
10-21-2005, 03:40 AM
at www.strategy.gr . Good luck!

gbos
10-21-2005, 04:27 AM
Frank check your Private Messages...

This is the front page of the magazine.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/1489/stratigikileoiipytheuseksofyll.jpg

gbos
10-21-2005, 05:50 AM
Some basic points of the article….

The tank is been tested by the XXV armor brigade in Xanthi and the tests will last till the end of 2005.

The final assembly of the vehicle was made in Munich last June.

The German production line will manufacture 30 vehicles and the rest 140 will be manufactured in Greece.

The German production line will have finished deliveries until mid-2007 and the Greek production line until mid-2009.

Also the deliveries of 12 ARV Buffel + 8 AVLB leguan vehicles have been started with the first AVLB delivery in October.

The Greek companies are participating in construction work worth 557 mil. Euros :

ELVO --- final assembly and testing
EAS --- some parts of the main gun
Intracom --- WISPR (wide band real time data system) , TRC-9200 radios , parts of commander’s periscope.
MilTech --- GPS , wiring and electrical parts.
ValPack --- new generation concealment nets
Diehl Hellas --- tracks
Theon --- observation periscopes and night driving periscopes
METKA --- turret , hull , wheel parts , assembly of add on synthetic armor.

LEO2HEl are based on the Leo2A6EX version and is currently the most advance version of the Leo2 family.

+ Something that is not on the article……

At least 14 Leo2A4, part of the intermediate solution, have been delivered to the Greek army after reconstruction work at German factories.

Dark Avenger
10-21-2005, 12:50 PM
Delivery of 14 Leopard 2A4s took place this week. They will, according to all reports published in the Greek specialist press, appear in the October 28th parade in Thessaloniki. Accorrding to "Ptisi & Diastima" (Flight and Space) magazine, their camouflage scheme is identical to that of the A6, i.e. anti-IR MERDC.

GREEK71AIRBORNE
10-21-2005, 07:00 PM
I had some spare time this afternoon and since alot of talk has made about the New Camo of the Leo2A6HEL, i decided to made my own painjob in the Tank!
I didn't spend much time on this, but tell me your opinion. would the Tank look better with these colours?

BEFORE (ORIGINAL)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/AIRBORNEGR/LEO2_3.jpg

AFTER (MY COLOURS)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/AIRBORNEGR/LEO2_DIKOMOU1.jpg

And a photo of a Greek Leopard1 . I think its Camo looks like the new one, but a bit darker like mine!
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/AIRBORNEGR/LEO1A5.jpg

dustdevil
10-22-2005, 07:24 AM
Not realy "emtpy"http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/2545/modules013nd.jpg
As you see the differend angles "help" the armour to stop/deflect AP projektiles. SABOT or HEAT.

Thanks for the photo, that was the one I saw.

It's not empty but a penetrator can still pass though it without touching interior structure. Maybe it can be filled with other materials?

What I was trying to say is that the wedge shape is not really a shot trap in "WW2 or smaller calibre vs thick armor" sense, i.e. capable of deflecting a high energy projectile into thinner or more sensitive parts of the MBT. Instead it will break the penetrator or deform it and predetonate any other HEAT round.

CRTS27
10-22-2005, 01:41 PM
Well the slope of the armour deflect the AP/Heat whatever not only downward by sideward too.
That make the angle of impact even smaller. (If it hit the upper hull).
If it came through the module armour there are the smaller triangles inside, also in different angle and then the actuall turret armour also in different angle! That make the "job" for the penetrator more difficult
I made a small diagram...
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/4997/unbenannt2ye.jpg
If the penetrator came through three (3!) layers of armor in three different angles then, hey, its not your day!:lol:

Frank the soldier
10-22-2005, 03:59 PM
The Hellenic Leopard 2 HEL at the frontsite / magazine had before the " Nebelwurfbecher" a case or what ???
What is in this case ???

CRTS27
10-22-2005, 04:14 PM
Storage space for the camouflage net.

GREEK71AIRBORNE
11-06-2005, 05:22 PM
The Greek Leopard2A6HEL in Exercise in Thrace!
http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/579/nleo2a67is.jpg
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6376/nleo2a618cc.jpg
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2387/nleo2a625mn.jpg

GREEK71AIRBORNE
02-05-2006, 10:37 AM
Some more photos!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6011/leopard2a6extrials23sx8kn.jpg
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3439/leopard2a6extrials17gi6ct.jpg
http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/1112/de180056gy.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8862/de180079my.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9928/de180081ov.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2820/de180090cg.jpg

GrkWebMaster
07-15-2006, 11:21 AM
http://greekmilitary.net/Greek%20Armoured%20Core/jnleo2elvo16vk.jpg

http://greekmilitary.net/Greek%20Armoured%20Core/pytheusatinvisionfree102ky.jpg

http://greekmilitary.net/Greek%20Armoured%20Core/pytheusatinvisionfree23vg.jpg

Bert
07-15-2006, 11:42 AM
Why not just dismantle the Armed Forces? With such a puny force it just does make sense to have 300 tanks. That would be a waste of time, so just demilitarize!

:bash:
HEEL 'HEER'!!
HEEL!!
Haha.. We have 50 tanks.

david2999
07-16-2006, 08:49 AM
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/8112/pytheusatinvisionfree44kn.jpg

This doesnt seem like the best camoflauge... I wonder what they were thinking.

DaGreatRV
07-16-2006, 09:26 AM
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/2545/modules013nd.jpg


Just having a brainstorm, what if you filled those spaces with water? You could diperse the energy.
Even beter you could fill it with non-Newtonian fluid :) I smell potential!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid

Greek soldier
07-16-2006, 09:28 AM
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/8112/pytheusatinvisionfree44kn.jpg

This doesnt seem like the best camoflauge... I wonder what they were thinking.

It is a special Anti-IR paint.

Resurrection
07-16-2006, 09:33 AM
It is a special Anti-IR paint.

So there was no special anti-IR paint available in a different color?

Greek soldier
07-16-2006, 09:34 AM
This camo is suitble for environments like Evros. The Leopards 2A6HEL will be stationed near the (natural) borders with Turkey.

Luno
07-16-2006, 09:36 AM
I don’t see anything wrong with that camouflage, I think i gone work great during the hot Greece summer :)

Resurrection
07-16-2006, 09:37 AM
It's just that the orange really stands out. How does Evros' environment look like? Rocky?

Greek soldier
07-16-2006, 09:40 AM
See the images posted by GREEK-AIRBORNE and GrkWebMaster on this page. It is the Leopard 2A6 during excercises in Thrace (Prefecture of Evros)

SEAHAWK
07-16-2006, 10:03 AM
The camo would be effective, because of the Trakia's land... I know that in Edirne (a frontier city near by Greek border) has a "red" toned land. And we alse have that kind of camo for the some regions in Southeast Turkey.(but it's not the orange, actually :D)

Pytheas
07-16-2006, 01:51 PM
It's just that the orange really stands out. How does Evros' environment look like? Rocky?

no, it is red/orange/brown land...

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6011/leopard2a6extrials23sx8kn.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6011/leopard2a6extrials23sx8kn.jpg)

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/981/leopard2a6extrials17gi.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/981/leopard2a6extrials17gi.jpg)

:)

david2999
07-16-2006, 03:44 PM
coool now when i think about it thats what it looks like on cyprus too (yes ive been there once), red mud everywhere!:)

Herman the II
01-28-2008, 08:31 AM
A picture I took today on the German Autobahn A92 near Munich.
Not really thrilling but at least you can see that another Leopard 2A6Hel is ready and on its way down to Greece.


http://www.abload.de/img/cimg07530f3dotjpg

higher resolution: (2560 to 1920)
http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=cimg0753fhjdotjpg

flanker7
01-28-2008, 09:00 AM
Also may be an A4. Barrel length will tell but I can't compare it now

Herman the II
01-28-2008, 09:05 AM
I'm quite sure it was the longer barrel of the L55 and not the L44 of the LeoA4. But maybe the cover on top of the muzzle fooled me.

DavidDCM
01-28-2008, 10:37 AM
That is definetly the L/55 gun.

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 11:59 AM
As it looks Greece is unwilling or unable to pay for the delivered Leopard2 tanks. Greece already owes KMW ca. 350 mil. €.
Apparently Greece wont pay because otherwise it would miss the Maastricht criteria. The same problem exist with the HDW build U214 class subs.
If you cant pay for sth. don't buy it.

Sry only German source so far.:
http://www.shortnews.de/start.cfm?id=699274

Amateur
02-22-2008, 01:34 PM
As it looks Greece is unwilling or unable to pay for the delivered Leopard2 tanks. Greece already owes KMW ca. 350 mil. €.




Apparently Greece wont pay because otherwise it would miss the Maastricht criteria. The same problem exist with the HDW build U214 class subs.
If you cant pay for sth. don't buy it.
Sry only German source so far.:


http://www.shortnews.de/start.cfm?id=699274


Umm... no. A better description would be "if you don't deliver the product promised, don't expect to get paid". Obviously KMW's CEO Frank Haun failed to mention that, but the fact is that Greece refused to accept the initial tanks delivered and withheld payments, because the turret's armor at a specific point failed the firing tests foreseen by the contract. You can look up some details here:
http://tank-net.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t18800.html
KMW initially refused, but then acknowledged the problem and presented a solution (adding an armor plate at that point). I think the solution was found satisfactory by the Hellenic Army, and now the initial batch of tanks delivered are having that armor plate refitted. I guess payments have resumed or will resume after that.

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 02:12 PM
Umm.... no.
The fuss about the armour was over a year ago, back then KMW said the Greeks only made it up to delay the payments but none the less they added additional armour that the Greeks demanded.
This news dates 22.2.08.
Until now KMW delivered more than 80 tanks and got payed for only 20 of them.

evil-twin
02-22-2008, 02:30 PM
It`s sad but true. KMWEG is not the only one who accuses the Greeks of delaying the payments . There aere also many other firms like HDW, Dassault or Lockheed Martin who struggle or struggled a long time with greek officials because of outstanding depts.

phoebus
02-22-2008, 02:33 PM
It`s sad but true. KMWEG is not the only one who accuses the Greeks of delaying the payments . There aere also many other firms like HDW, Dassault or Lockheed Martin who struggle or struggled a long time with greek officials because of outstanding depts.

Funny comment about non-existant debts. Sadly nobody's going to pay anything until those prodects meet the specs, according to which they were selected. The ball is in the court of those corporations.

But in any case that process belongs to the past concerning the Leopard 2A6HEL, which is being gradually introduced after its turret armour was "corrected" since it was previously not acceptable.

Trying to promote a false picture of a "irresponsible Greece not willing to pay" is at least a laughable and biased excusses. Refreshing nevertheless.

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 02:44 PM
Funny comment about non-existant debts. Sadly nobody's going to pay anything until those prodects meet the specs, according to which they were selected. The ball is in the court of those corporations.
.
Non-existing debts? 350 mil € alone for KMW isn't exactly non-existing.
In addition to that the list goes on, just look at HDW: iirc 440mil €



But in any case that process belongs to the past concerning the Leopard 2A6HEL, which is being gradually introduced after its turret armour was "corrected" since it was previously not acceptable.

Did you read the article I posted above? The Greeks introduced and accepted the Leo2a6Hel but didn't payed for it.
How does that belong to the past?

phoebus
02-22-2008, 02:51 PM
Non-existing debts? 350 mil € alone for KMW isn't exactly non-existing.
In addition to that the list goes on, just look at HDW: iirc 440mil €


Did you read the article I posted above? The Greeks introduced and accepted the Leo2a6Hel but didn't payed for it.
How does that belong to the past?

The HDW U214 case has been answered in my post previously, the products do not meet the specs, hence there's not going to be a payment. Calling that a "debt" is laughable and that would be all for that issue.

Secondly, you're posting something in an incomprehensible language that has not been reported and confirmed officially anywhere else.

Whatever the case, Leopard 2A6HEL have not been reported to have reached any level of operational entry in the Armed Forces and hence that is probably the reason why KMW is so desperate to be paid, probably further desigh failures they wish to avoid or bad and unofficial information overall.

phoebus
02-22-2008, 02:54 PM
The same problem exist with the HDW build U214 class subs.

Afterall you said it yourself.

The U214 sub case is a typical, well-documented example of a company not delivering what was promised to the customer. Morover the sub itself faced problems with stability, which were/are unacceptable by any respect and attributed to design failure on HDW's behalf.

"Debt" is an irrelevant word to describe this situation, since we are dealing with products that have/had not met their purchased speficications. "Company failure to deliver" is the right choice of words, in my view.

evil-twin
02-22-2008, 03:12 PM
But a fact is also, that there are other customers which bought almost the same weapon systems like U-214, Leopard 2 or F-16 and there has never been any problems with the payments ( even than when there were some minor issues that had to be fixed at the weapon systems).

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 03:13 PM
Afterall you said it yourself.

The U214 sub case is a typical, well-documented example of a company not delivering what was promised to the customer. Morover the sub itself faced problems with stability, which were/are unacceptable by any respect and attributed to design failure on HDW's behalf.

"Debt" is an irrelevant word to describe this situation, since we are dealing with products that have/had not met their purchased speficications. "Company failure to deliver" is the right choice of words.


The "Papanikolis" build in Hamburg was accepted by the Greek Navy during trials near the cost of Norway but wasn't delivered because of lacking payments.
The "Papanikolis" lies in Hamburg and hasn't moved for over a year.
The "problems" regard the subs build in Greece under licence not the one build by HDW in Hamburg.
If there would be "design failures" as claimed by the Greeks why was the South Korean Navy happy to introduce their first U214 class sub then?
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=89699&session=dae.34003612.1203710611.t2NMVH8AAAEAACrMu@sAAAAL&modele=jdc_1

Maybe its a different U214....:roll:

----
Regarding the Leo2:
Its irrelevant if the Leos have "reached any level of operational entry" in the Greek Army, they got delivered (80 of them) and were accepted so Greece has to pay for them.




Secondly, you're posting something in an incomprehensible language that has not been reported and confirmed officially anywhere else.
As soon as I find an English article I will post it, but I hope that you trust my translation.

Ronguild
02-22-2008, 03:21 PM
The "Papanikolis" build in Hamburg was accepted by the Greek Navy during trials near the cost of Norway but wasn't delivered because of lacking payments.
The "Papanikolis" lies in Hamburg and hasn't moved for over a year.
The "problems" regarded the subs build in Greece under licence not the one build by HDW in Hamburg.
If there would be "design failures" as claimed by the Greeks why was the South Korean Navy happy to introduce their first U214 class sub then?


PAPANIKOLIS has not reached the level expected by the Greek navy. TKMS yard are responsible of that as designer and BUILDER, you are a bit insulting to greek members arguing that Hellenic Shipyard are not able to built properly a sub, under licence.
Be honest and admit that the german shipyard has missed the target, this time (which is very unusual, that's right).

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 03:26 PM
PAPANIKOLIS has not reached the level expected by the Greek navy. TKMS yard are responsible of that as designer and BUILDER, you are a bit insulting to greek members arguing that Hellenic Shipyard are not able to built properly a sub, under licence.
Be honest and admit that the german shipyard has missed the target, this time (which is very unusual, that's right).

It wasn't my intend to insult anybody, especially having in mind that the shipyards in Greece belong to Hdw/TKMS also.
Its just that the problems only occurred during trials with the subs build in Greece not during the trial with the Papanikolis, that's all.
But wouldn't you think that HDW would try to fix the problems if there would be any? As said the Papanikolis lies in Hamburg and wasn't touched for more than a year.

Amateur
02-22-2008, 03:32 PM
Umm.... no.
The fuss about the armour was over a year ago, back then KMW said the Greeks only made it up to delay the payments but none the less they added additional armour that the Greeks demanded.
This news dates 22.2.08.
1. This news dates 22.2.2008, because KMW's CEO needed to explain some numbers to the company's shareholders.
2. KMW wouldn't have added additional armor on the turret at their own expense, unless there was really a problem. Doing so proves there was a problem.
3. Are you sure that the "fuss about the armor was over a year ago", i.e. do you have a link indicationg that? Because my understanding was that one year ago the problem was in the process of being fixed; only recently have deliveries started again.


It`s sad but true. KMWEG is not the only one who accuses the Greeks of delaying the payments . There aere also many other firms like HDW, Dassault or Lockheed Martin who struggle or struggled a long time with greek officials because of outstanding depts.

Firms want their money; customers want the product promised. And sometimes the only way to get the product promised is to withhold payments until the problems are solved. As for Dassault, there were specific and well-documented problems with the Mirages-2000 not performing as expected; once they were solved, Dassault was duly payed. I don't know about LM, but I guess it was a similar case.

Non-existing debts? 350 mil € alone for KMW isn't exactly non-existing.
In addition to that the list goes on, just look at HDW: iirc 440mil €
HDW is not a good example for your case: they have already been paid 80% of the money for 4 U-214 submarines (which already makes the money argument for not accepting them pretty ridiculous) and still haven't delivered a single craft, since the maiden ship, Papanikolis, has experienced a number of problems. See details in http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5529



It wasn't my intend to insult anybody, especially having in mind that the shipyards in Greece belong to Hdw/TKMS also.
But wouldn't you think that HDW would try to fix the problems if there would be any? As said the Papanikolis lies in Hamburg and wasn't touched for more than a year.

There is no question of insult here, at least I 'm not insulted as a Greek. However you must acknowledge that at least in the submarine's case there is no point in arguing that Greece makes up excuses to withhold the payments, since 80% of the price has already been paid. So whatever the problem is, it;s not money and the ball is in HDW's court.

All in all I 'll tell you this, because I believe you speak in good faith and I don't want to heat up the debate: as I said, firms want their money, but customers want the product. Greece has greater security problems than other countries and doesn't have the luxury of accepting products unless they are fully up to the task. That's the reason why, for instance, Greece was the only export customer that ordered an extra Leo 2 turret and conducted firing tests. Arms dealers may leak stories about "country X not paying" etc. in order to put pressure on their client. They have the right to do so; and their clients have the right to demand full delivery before paying. As simple as that.

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 04:34 PM
1. This news dates 22.2.2008, because KMW's CEO needed to explain some numbers to the company's shareholders.
2. KMW wouldn't have added additional armor on the turret at their own expense, unless there was really a problem. Doing so proves there was a problem.
3. Are you sure that the "fuss about the armor was over a year ago", i.e. do you have a link indicationg that? Because my understanding was that one year ago the problem was in the process of being fixed; only recently have deliveries started again.


For now KMW delivered 80 "fixed" tanks from which only 20 were payed.
The problems (30 shots were fired/ 2 penetrated the armour of the test turret) occurred during trials in Sep. 2006.
According to this link (Greek)http://www.hellenicdefense.gr/eidiseis/e071030.html ca. 40 tanks have been delivered within October 2007, that means that Greece stopped the payments in October 2007. All those tanks delivered where accepted but still Greece wont/cant pay. Those recent conflicts are not related to the disputed armour.



HDW is not a good example for your case: they have already been paid 80% of the money for 4 U-214 submarines (which already makes the money argument for not accepting them pretty ridiculous) and still haven't delivered a single craft, since the maiden ship, Papanikolis, has experienced a number of problems. See details in http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5529


Thanks for the link. But would you have some other source for the claim that 80 % of the money was payed? The discussion over at defnet doesn't gave any, just the claims of some members.
However the following article (12.1.08) states that the "dept" is now over 400 mil €. So somehow unlikely that the Greeks payed 80 % .
German link:
("Außenstände bei dem Projekt sollen sich inzwischen auf über 400 Millionen Euro belaufen")
http://www.kn-online.de/artikel/2285942/Bestellt_und_nicht_abgeholt:_HDW_und_die_%84Papanikolis%93.htm



There is no question of insult here, at least I 'm not insulted as a Greek. However you must acknowledge that at least in the submarine's case there is no point in arguing that Greece makes up excuses to withhold the payments, since 80% of the price has already been paid. So whatever the problem is, it;s not money and the ball is in HDW's court.

As above;
if its true that the Greeks payed 80% then I rest my case. Somehow I do not believe it.




All in all I 'll tell you this, because I believe you speak in good faith and I don't want to heat up the debate: as I said, firms want their money, but customers want the product. Greece has greater security problems than other countries and doesn't have the luxury of accepting products unless they are fully up to the task. That's the reason why, for instance, Greece was the only export customer that ordered an extra Leo 2 turret and conducted firing tests. Arms dealers may leak stories about "country X not paying" etc. in order to put pressure on their client. They have the right to do so; and their clients have the right to demand full delivery before paying. As simple as that.
I agree with you that we have opposing interests (Greece/defense industry) here.
But we should acknowledge that Greece is in serious trouble with the "Maastricht" criteria of the Eu, so they are forced to cut spendings wherever possible.
Having in mind that all other countries are very pleased with the said products it is somehow "smelly" that only Greece wont pay/accept
them because of inferior quality.

Freedom-Fries
02-22-2008, 04:40 PM
It is a special Anti-IR paint.

great looking tank
but I would have picked a different color

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 05:24 PM
Now the Financial Times Germany is also reporting on the Issue.



"Die aktuellen Forderungen an Griechenland belaufen sich auf etwa 350 Mio. Euro" , sagte der KMW-Chef. Von den bisher 80 gelieferten Panzern seien gut 30 abgenommen und lediglich rund 20 bezahlt worden. "Nach Problemen in 2006 gab es 2007 erste positive Entwicklungen.

http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/industrie/:Krauss%20Maffei%20Geld%20Panzer/321137.html

In short:
80 tanks have been delivered but so far only 20 have been payed.
The actual unpaid bill is ca 350 mil. €.

Icarus_222
02-22-2008, 06:04 PM
But we should acknowledge that Greece is in serious trouble with the "Maastricht" criteria of the Eu, so they are forced to cut spendings wherever possible.
Having in mind that all other countries are very pleased with the said products it is somehow "smelly" that only Greece wont pay/accept
them because of inferior quality.

Every country has different contracts and specifications for their products. Not everyone buys the same kit right off the shelf.

The fact of the matter is the 214 has been an inferior sub to what was agree to in the deal. This might be news to you but the story has been on ongoing and very well documented one in Greece. The shipyard in Greece constructing them builds to the design specifications of HDW, and is in fact of course a subsidiary of HDW, so cut the nonsense and BS. Either way the buck stops with the company who cannot deliver the subs in the condition agreed to and not with the customer.

And please leave this nonsense about Maastricht. Many European nations have already broken the criteria, including your beloved Germany.

Similar acceptance problems have occured with other companies and Greece, most notably as I remember in the initial Mirage 2000 orders. The difference was Dassault got their act together and worked to deliver a product to the specifications agree to. Hence the 'M' (Mirage 2000-egM/bgM) designation (modified).

Herman the II
02-22-2008, 06:26 PM
Thanks for not adding anything new to the discussion, except of getting personal.
So you are denying the fact that the financial situation of Greece is very stressed?
Apparently the said companies have dealt with all the complains risen by the Greeks. Otherwise the companies would try to deal with it, don't you think? Both companies claim that there aren't anymore problems with the products but the Greeks still deny any payment.
That goes for the Leopards as for the U214 class subs.

Amateur
02-22-2008, 07:20 PM
For now KMW delivered 80 "fixed" tanks from which only 20 were payed.
The problems (30 shots were fired/ 2 penetrated the armour of the test turret) occurred during trials in Sep. 2006.
According to this link (Greek)http://www.hellenicdefense.gr/eidiseis/e071030.html ca. 40 tanks have been delivered within October 2007, that means that Greece stopped the payments in October 2007. All those tanks delivered where accepted but still Greece wont/cant pay. Those recent conflicts are not related to the disputed armour.
Actually the link you supplied says that payment issues (including a tax issue for which KMW bears no responsibility) were being settled, after the works of replacing some parts on the turret were concluded and the protocols of acceptance were signed. That's also the news that I had in mind, dating from 30.10.2007, i.e. less than 4 months ago, and not one year. So the link confirms that the problems were identified and in the process of being solved one year ago, but solutions were actually implemented and accepted in October 2007 - actually the link says that implementation of the armor change on all tanks that had already been constructed was not complete, and there were still 9 tanks to be retrofitted with the armor plate.



Thanks for the link. But would you have some other source for the claim that 80 % of the money was payed? The discussion over at defnet doesn't gave any, just the claims of some members.
However the following article (12.1.08) states that the "dept" is now over 400 mil €. So somehow unlikely that the Greeks payed 80 % .
http://www.kn-online.de/artikel/2285942/Bestellt_und_nicht_abgeholt:_HDW_und_die_%84Papanikolis%93.htm

Unfortunately I couldn't find any link in addition to the one I gave you above; however I think my point is also easily proven by HDW's claim of an outstanding sum of 400 million Euros. Let me explain: The initial order for 3 submarines cost 430 billion drachmas (see http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/type-214.htm), to which another 124 billion drachmas was added in 2002, when the option for a fourth submarine was activated. So the total cost of the project amounted to 554 billion drachmas, or 1,47 billion Euros. The 400 millions that HDW still claims are outstanding amount to 27% of that sum, which means that 73% has undoubtedly been paid. You could attribute the remaining 7% to interest rates claimed by HDW or differences in minor issues, but I think I have proven my point.


But we should acknowledge that Greece is in serious trouble with the "Maastricht" criteria of the Eu, so they are forced to cut spendings wherever possible. Having in mind that all other countries are very pleased with the said products it is somehow "smelly" that only Greece wont pay/accept them because of inferior quality.
Greece is in no more trouble than many other countries regarding the Maastricht criteria. As for the products, nobody questions german products in general or the Leopard 2 and U 214 in particular. However, that does not eliminate the possibility of problems occurring: in the Leopard's case, it was a limited and very specific issue that does not reflect on the tank's reputation, but had to be solved; and it was. As for the submarines, my guess is that because the "Papanikolis" was the first submarine of the U-214 type, there were some flaws that can be expected in such cases; but you can't expect the customer to just smile and accept them.

3rdMillhouse
02-22-2008, 08:04 PM
What's a picture of korean submarine doing in a "Greek Leo 2" thread?

Herman the II
02-23-2008, 02:17 AM
Actually the link you supplied says that payment issues (including a tax issue for which KMW bears no responsibility) were being settled, after the works of replacing some parts on the turret were concluded and the protocols of acceptance were signed. That's also the news that I had in mind, dating from 30.10.2007, i.e. less than 4 months ago, and not one year. So the link confirms that the problems were identified and in the process of being solved one year ago, but solutions were actually implemented and accepted in October 2007 - actually the link says that implementation of the armor change on all tanks that had already been constructed was not complete, and there were still 9 tanks to be retrofitted with the armor plate.


That's my point, the conflict was settled in October 2007 but according to the latest news Greece hasn't payed anymore since then. As I said it looks like the latest problems are not related to the disputed armour.




Unfortunately I couldn't find any link in addition to the one I gave you above; however I think my point is also easily proven by HDW's claim of an outstanding sum of 400 million Euros. Let me explain: The initial order for 3 submarines cost 430 billion drachmas (see http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/type-214.htm), to which another 124 billion drachmas was added in 2002, when the option for a fourth submarine was activated. So the total cost of the project amounted to 554 billion drachmas, or 1,47 billion Euros. The 400 millions that HDW still claims are outstanding amount to 27% of that sum, which means that 73% has undoubtedly been paid. You could attribute the remaining 7% to interest rates claimed by HDW or differences in minor issues, but I think I have proven my point.


This math includes the assumption that HDW/TKMS have already charged Greece the sum for all 4 subs despite the fact that until now only the one from HDW Hamburg is ready.
As I understand the Kn article HDW charged the whole sum for the first sub and only a part of the sum for the following subs because those are under construction. The Article definitely claims that Greece hasn't payed anything for the 3 subs build by TKMS in Greece.

Amateur
02-23-2008, 04:13 AM
That's my point, the conflict was settled in October 2007 but according to the latest news Greece hasn't payed anymore since then. As I said it looks like the latest problems are not related to the disputed armour.
Well I 'm sorry to resort to older posts but you did say that

The fuss about the armour was over a year ago, back then KMW said the Greeks only made it up to delay the payments but none the less they added additional armour that the Greeks demanded.This news dates 22.2.08.
Until now KMW delivered more than 80 tanks and got payed for only 20 of them.
So we now agree that the fuss about the armour wasn't over a year ago after all; it was (almost) over just 4 months ago, and with 9 tanks still expecting to be retrofitted with the add-on armour and be then officially accepted, which would easily be 1-2 months more. So as you see, it emerges that KMW is complaining about a 2-month payment delay...


This math includes the assumption that HDW/TKMS have already charged Greece the sum for all 4 subs despite the fact that until now only the one from HDW Hamburg is ready.
As I understand the Kn article HDW charged the whole sum for the first sub and only a part of the sum for the following subs because those are under construction. The Article definitely claims that Greece hasn't payed anything for the 3 subs build by TKMS in Greece.
That's indeed the assumption in the math I gave you, and I stand by that assumption. In the article you refer to there is indeed a claim that the rest of the submarines wasn't paid for, but if you notice the way the reporter says it (not endorsing it himself but rather attributing the information to HDW), you would get doubts about the credibility of the report. But since you questioned that assumption I tried to find more sources indicating that Greece paid 80% of the total price. I only came up with a reportage of a greek TV station on the issue, which you can find here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxWR9g85UzQ&feature=related) At 00:25 to 00:30 it is clearly stated that Greece has already paid 80% of the total sum for all 4 submarines, which the reportage translates to 1,4 Bn. Euros (the total sum being reported as 1,7 Bn Euros)
I 'm sorry that it's in greek, but you can ask some Greek to confirm it for you. If I find any other source on the 80% issue, I will post it.

As for the problems experienced, if you look at the above video at 5:15 - 5:25, you will see photographic proof from sea trials that the sub's roll on surface was 46,74 degrees (the officer being interviewed says it even reached 52 degrees), which is obviously unacceptable and made the skipper (HDW's trial skipper) abort the trial. Furthermore, in the second part of the same reportage, which you can find here (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWA77DNJ5lo), you can see (in 01:05 - 02:00) the head of HDW, Reinhardt Kuhlmann, accepting (in english) there were "minor problems to be solved on HDW's expenses due to the fact that this was a prototype". So I don't think there is any doubt that there were problems with the Papanikolis.

By the way, on the Papanikolis issue, a german source on 14.2.2008 says that "unterdessen sind alle Mängel behoben und die Griechen haben akzeptiert und wohl unterdessen auch gezahlt. Bei HDW ist man nun dabei die Muscheln abzukratzen und das U-Boot für die Überführung klar zu machen".
http://www.flugzeugforum.de/forum/showthread.php?p=880575
I don't know about its credibility, but if it's true, then it's obvious that (a) there were problems (b) they have finally been solved (c) once the problems were solved, Greece has duly paid HDW.

kinmid
02-23-2008, 04:26 AM
It wasn't my intend to insult anybody, especially having in mind that the shipyards in Greece belong to Hdw/TKMS also.
Its just that the problems only occurred during trials with the subs build in Greece not during the trial with the Papanikolis, that's all.
But wouldn't you think that HDW would try to fix the problems if there would be any? As said the Papanikolis lies in Hamburg and wasn't touched for more than a year.


Greek defense magazine "Elliniki Amina & Asfaleia" presented the first Greek sub (second of four in total) and the Greek construction program just few months back when the Greek built sub was laid into water.
There have been no sea trials on the Greek built submarines yet.
Only one Greek built Type-214 sub is completed and sea trials will begin next month the earliest as far as information is made available for it.
Construction changes have been made to some extend to the three subs currently built in Greece, as a result of the sea trials for the first German built sub.
So basically the debate for "problems" on the submarine class conserns the sea trials of the German built submarine, not the Greek ones.-

As far as the Korean sub's, let's just not make assumptions towards one end of the bargain, cause it might as well be the case of samewise type of design changes made to them as the ones currently made to the rest of the Greek ones. After all their sub's begun construction a bit later, when the "problems" of the first sub for the class appeared (and some of the three Greek-built sub's where in some early stages of construction).
The German company proposed "fixes" to Papanikolis (an already built sub) which where incorporated to the others Greek-built subs, so new subs can actually insorporate those "fixes" easier when they are constructed from the beginning.


Now as far as the Leopard-2A6HEL is concerned we are talking about 170 units in total.
We are talking about a Leo-2 variant different than the ones other countries use too.
Maybe not so different, but different both in specifications-variations and in terms of signed contract-provisions.
KMW would built 30 units in Germany, and Greece 140 units in Greece.
So far some 80 units have been built, and some 40-50 delivered.
Actually "fixing" the armor started a couple of months ago, so not all 80 currently built units are "fixed" yet.
A simple math can help you figure out if the sum of 250-350 mil remaining payment for a total of 170 units (with only 80 units built) constitutes any lack of payment (or significant debt) compared to the total amount paid so far in advance.
And by the way... the Germans were obligated by contract to "fix" the armor problem, since their tests were part of the overall contract which provisioned firing tests on randomly selected turret from production line (171 turrets were to be produced for 170 units) in order to asure specifications required from the Greek side and provisioned in the contract.
I don't know any other Leopard-2 user that actually demanded such tests for their own acquired Leo-2's, so comments in general about their own acquired Leo's satisfaction-quality are actually irrelevant.


HAVE FUN !!!

Herman the II
02-23-2008, 10:06 AM
So we now agree that the fuss about the armour wasn't over a year ago after all; it was (almost) over just 4 months ago, and with 9 tanks still expecting to be retrofitted with the add-on armour and be then officially accepted, which would easily be 1-2 months more. So as you see, it emerges that KMW is complaining about a 2-month payment delay...


We now agree that the deliveries are ongoing since 10/2007 and that there is a payment delay. You say its a two month delay whilst I say its more likely to be 4 month+.
I'm still holding my claim that the problems regarding the turret armour occurred at the end of 2006 following a dispute that went on for 2-3 month. That's the reason for my claim that the dispute or "fuss" is year back.




That's indeed the assumption in the math I gave you, and I stand by that assumption. In the article you refer to there is indeed a claim that the rest of the submarines wasn't paid for, but if you notice the way the reporter says it (not endorsing it himself but rather attributing the information to HDW), you would get doubts about the credibility of the report. But since you questioned that assumption I tried to find more sources indicating that Greece paid 80% of the total price. I only came up with a reportage of a greek TV station on the issue, which you can find here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxWR9g85UzQ&feature=related) At 00:25 to 00:30 it is clearly stated that Greece has already paid 80% of the total sum for all 4 submarines, which the reportage translates to 1,4 Bn. Euros (the total sum being reported as 1,7 Bn Euros)
I 'm sorry that it's in greek, but you can ask some Greek to confirm it for you. If I find any other source on the 80% issue, I will post it.

As for the problems experienced, if you look at the above video at 5:15 - 5:25, you will see photographic proof from sea trials that the sub's roll on surface was 46,74 degrees (the officer being interviewed says it even reached 52 degrees), which is obviously unacceptable and made the skipper (HDW's trial skipper) abort the trial. Furthermore, in the second part of the same reportage, which you can find here (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWA77DNJ5lo), you can see (in 01:05 - 02:00) the head of HDW, Reinhardt Kuhlmann, accepting (in english) there were "minor problems to be solved on HDW's expenses due to the fact that this was a prototype". So I don't think there is any doubt that there were problems with the Papanikolis.


So there are various sources that are contra-dictionary to each other.
The German newspaper claims everything was ok from the start or is fixed whilst the TV report from Greece claims that the trials went catastrophic.
Still there is huge differences between "minor problems" admitted by the head of HDW and design failures that would justify a delayed acceptance of over a year.
I don't understand why the sub was laying untouched in Hamburg if there would be such serious problems as claimed.
Regarding the disputed payments the Financial times Germany wrote yesterday:

"KMW steht mit seinen Griechenlandschwierigkeiten nicht alleine da. In der Branche sind auch Abnahme- und Zahlungsverzögerungen bei ThyssenKrupp (http://www.ftd.de/ticker/DE0007500001.DE) für U-Boote, bei der EADS (http://www.ftd.de/ticker/NL0000235190.DE)-Tochter Eurocopter für NH-90-Hubschrauber und bei Dassault und Lockheed bekannt. Branchenkenner sprechen von einer Verzögerungstaktik der Griechen, damit die Maastricht-Kriterien zur Staatsverschuldung eingehalten werden."

http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/industrie/:Krauss%20Maffei%20Geld%20Panzer/321137.html

In short: Aside the KMW dispute Greece is known for delayed payments
in connection with the TKMS sub deal. (in addition EADS,Dassault,Lockhead) Insiders claim its a common Greek tactic because of a difficult financial situation on the Greek side.

That's why I (in addition to the FTG) don't believe in the claim that 80% of the bill was payed.




Greek defense magazine "Elliniki Amina & Asfaleia" presented the first Greek sub (second of four in total) and the Greek construction program just few months back when the Greek built sub was laid into water.
There have been no sea trials on the Greek built submarines yet.
Only one Greek built Type-214 sub is completed and sea trials will begin next month the earliest as far as information is made available for it.
Construction changes have been made to some extend to the three subs currently built in Greece, as a result of the sea trials for the first German built sub.
So basically the debate for "problems" on the submarine class conserns the sea trials of the German built submarine, not the Greek ones.-

The TV report posted by AMATEUR also mentioned the problems occurred during trials with the sub build in Hamburg. If its true that the subs build in Greece haven't made any trials I stand corrected in that point.
My claim was based on the German newspaper that said all trials with the first sub where without serious problems. So my assumption was that serious problems could only emerge with the subs build by HWD in Greece.






Now as far as the Leopard-2A6HEL is concerned we are talking about 170 units in total.
We are talking about a Leo-2 variant different than the ones other countries use too.
Maybe not so different, but different both in specifications-variations and in terms of signed contract-provisions.
KMW would built 30 units in Germany, and Greece 140 units in Greece.
So far some 80 units have been built, and some 40-50 delivered.
Actually "fixing" the armor started a couple of months ago, so not all 80 currently built units are "fixed" yet.
A simple math can help you figure out if the sum of 250-350 mil remaining payment for a total of 170 units (with only 80 units built) constitutes any lack of payment (or significant debt) compared to the total amount paid so far in advance.


HAVE FUN !!!

The average unit cost of a Leo2 is ca 5mil. euros(http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product.php?prodID=1461). The head of KMW claims that 80 tanks have been delivered but so far only 20 of them have been paid, that leaves 60 tanks without payment. 5mil. per tank multiplied with 60 will give you 300 mil.. That's my math and apparently also the math of KMW.

kinmid
02-23-2008, 11:14 AM
@Herman the German


Your link provides a contract table at the bottom, which indicates Greek contract for 170 units with a total value of 1.87 bil dollars and 11 mil per unit cost, so KMW has serious math problem even if it's reported claim is correct (meaning the lack of payment for the specific number of units).

To put it simple, KMW table in your link adds both 249 units of used Leo's for Spain (at 76,305 $ per unit) and 170 units of new-version A6HEL Greek Leo's (at 11 mil $ per unit), and devides the total contracts sums in order to get 4.5mil average unit cost for total number of 419 units for both two separate contracts.
Clearly you can see the "mathematical" mistake in that.



HAVE FUN !!!

Herman the II
06-03-2008, 05:21 PM
Despite our furious discussion the lack of payment seem to be persisting.
The LEO2A6 has been officially introduced into service but yesterday a German newspaper claimed that the dept has risen to 480 mil. € now.
It seems that there haven't been any new payments since we stopped our discussion here.




170 Panzer des Typs Leopard 2 HEL hat die griechische Armee geordert. Kostenpunkt: rund 1,7 Milliarden Euro. Fast 100 Leos sind bereits geliefert, aber das Verteidigungsministerium in Athen gerät mit den Zahlungen immer weiter in Rückstand. Um die 20 Panzer sind erst bezahlt. Die ausstehenden Zahlungen belaufen sich mittlerweile auf 480 Millionen Euro – eine „existenzbedrohende Situation“ für die Panzerschmiede KMW, wie es in einem deutschen Diplomatenpapier heißt.


http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/div/;art771,2542187

In short: 170 tanks ordered, 100 delivered but no new payments.
Dept has risen to 480 mil. € and counting.
The article also mentions the 4 U214 subs and two Patrol boats delivered by HDW, without substantial news. (So I wont post it over in the Papanikolis thread)

Amateur
06-03-2008, 06:50 PM
@ Herman: once again, half the truth... :roll:
I must admit that the one to blame is not you but your sources, that keep reporting inaccurate (more precisely: deliberately inadequate) information. Let me clarify:
1. There has indeed been a new development in the Leopard 2 HEL programme, and that is the official acceptance of the tank by the Hellenic Army. That means that the defects found in its armour (which was the main reason for the delays in its acceptance) were repaired.
2. The fact that the Hellenic Army has commissioned those tanks in one armoured brigade so far, suggests that deliveries of the tanks are about half way (since the total number ordered is 170 and one tank brigade in the Hellenic Army has about 82). That's also approximately the number reported as constructed so far, by unofficial sources.
3. The total cost of the Leopard 2 Hel contract (signed in 2003) was 1.726.925.641 Euros. The sum of 480 million Euros, which is reported by German press as still due, is about 28% of the total price.
4. The obvious conclusion is that Greece has paid about 72% of the total price (or perhaps more if German reports are swollen with interest rates etc.), while it has only taken delivery of 50% of the products ordered. Please note that the delay in product delivery was not Greece's fault, but rather due to a specific problem (armour defect), which was proven, accepted and repaired by KMW.
5. As in previous discussions, I am initially assuming that you are acting in good faith here, unknowingly reproducing inaccurate information published in the German press. I hope you won't prove me wrong...

Eoin666
06-03-2008, 07:13 PM
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/2545/modules013nddotjpgJust having a brainstorm, what if you filled those spaces with water? You could diperse the energy.
Even beter you could fill it with non-Newtonian fluid :) I smell potential!

Well you could, old Shermans had water jackets fitted as they were generally petrol engined and significantly reduced fires. But they're spaced for a reason, everything in armour is a compromise between weight and protection.

In terms of the shot trap theory, with high velocity tungsten or DU they vapourise steel armour on contact not generally deflecting like older AP or capped AP rounds. Many western designs don't even have sloped armour at all now and with all the add on equipment effectively present a brick shaped square target (Leo 2A4, Type 90), reducing the slope effect increase in armour thickness. Missiles can deflect, the RPG29 that penetrated the Challenger 2 apparently bounced off the road up into the front belly, Challengers now have a Dorchester level 2 package on the turret sides, hull front and belly, some sources reckon weight is now 80 tons.



It's just that the orange really stands out. How does Evros' environment look like? Rocky?

great looking tank
but I would have picked a different color

Tanks don't remain their original colour for very long unless parading through the city, operationally they all generally become a dusty mud brown colour

Herman the II
06-04-2008, 01:39 AM
4. The obvious conclusion is that Greece has paid about 72% of the total price (or perhaps more if German reports are swollen with interest rates etc.), while it has only taken delivery of 50% of the products ordered. .


You keep following the same line of argumentation that you did over half an year ago. (Nothing wrong with that...:))
The source expressly stated that only 20 tanks are payed (no 72 % or whatever). As we discussed the topic last time, KMW claimed that they delivered close to 80 tanks but were payed for only 20.
Now (half a year later) they claim they delivered 100 tanks but still only 20 are payed.
The dept is rising because they deliver more tanks and charge the bill for them, not because of interest rates.
Half a year ago it was 350 mil. € for 60 unpaid tanks, and now with 20 tanks more delivered its 480 mil. €, makes sense.
The recent news just prove my POV I had back then.

Amateur
06-10-2008, 12:05 PM
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4716&Itemid=47 (sorry, greek only)

In short: a new development on the payments issue is that Greece paid to KMW 107 million Euros on May 30th covering KMW invoices submitted to Greece during the last two years. Another 183 millions will be paid to KMW in mid June, representing the final acceptance of another 30-40 tanks, to which all changes / repairs requested by Greece have been incorporated.
The article states that "this way an issue that was poisoning bilateral relations, at least military ones, has been solved in a positive way for both sides".

So 290 million Euros have been (or will shortly be) paid; as for the rest of the money claimed by KMW up to 350 (or 480 recently) million Euros, I guess they will be paid once the rest of the tanks delivered are officially accepted.
I think this may be the reason for the misunderstanding: KMW obviously maintained that the tanks were payable once delivered; however the buyer in such cases will only pay the bill once he has approved and accepted the merchandise. p-)

Herman the II
01-03-2009, 08:54 AM
The monetary dispute between German companies and Greece continuous, KMW claims that they are still waiting for those 260 mil. € for Leopard 2 programme. Going on for years now...

Reported today by DER SPIEGEL:


Bei Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) hat das griechische Heer 170 Kampfpanzer vom Typ Leopard-2 im Wert von 1,7 Milliarden Euro bestellt. Seit 2006 hat die Firma 126 Exemplare ausgeliefert, sitzt aber derzeit auf Außenständen von etwa 260 Millionen Euro. Dennoch will KMW einstweilen planmäßig weiterliefern.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,599275,00.html

Amateur
01-03-2009, 10:26 AM
:roll:
I suggest you take a good look at the numbers you posted; der Spiegel says that KMW has until now delivered only 126 out of 170 tanks ordered. Estimating a rough value of 10 mil Euros per tank (total value 1,7 bil Euros for 170 tanks), you can see that 44 tanks easily equals 260 mil. Euros; obviously the rest of the money will be paid when the rest of the tanks is delivered. Also note that the sum due has shrunk since my last post, when it was around 350 millions. Which means the sum is being gradually paid up, in parallel with deliveries.
And frankly, I 'm really fed up with this "Greece isn't paying" *****. Especially when we are constantly discovering new problems with the tanks already delivered (the latest problem being cracks in the tower "ring"). Enough is enough Herman...

Herman the II
01-03-2009, 10:34 AM
Ah, so they discovered new problems!! :lol:
Who would have thought of that!

The missing sum of 260 mil. € is for those 126 tanks already delivered, not for future deliveries.

EDIT:
But we have discussed that one before, on the 06-10-2008 you posted that all of the missing money will be paid but obviously that hasn't happened.

Amateur
01-03-2009, 08:28 PM
You make it sound like Greece is "inventing" problems with the tanks. Well Hermann, in fact the previous problem (inferior armor protection at a specific point on the turret, i.e. around the periscope) was (a) accepted by KMW and (b) solved by KMW at their own cost, as we have discussed earlier in this thread (posts #131, 142, 152). So as you see, Greece isn't "inventing" problems. Rather, German arrogance is "inventing" the "Greece isn't paying" crap, in order to cover the deficiencies of certain German products. Verstanden?
BTW, reports say that the current problem (cracks on the turret ring) was also admitted by KMW, and they 're working to solve it.

As for the sums due, I really don't see your point; my post of October is two posts over us and it's crystal clear. I said,


they will be paid once the rest of the tanks delivered are officially accepted

Now which part of that don't you understand?

Once again Hermann, enough is enough. As I also said on the "Papanikolis" thread (which BTW you conveniently failed to answer), your insistence on reproducing here every bit of baseless misinformation "pushed" to the German press by HDW's and KMW's public relations departments, borders on propaganda. I 've had quite enough of this "Greece doesn't pay" crap. If you want to believe that *****, then do so. But don't expect anybody else to believe it.

Refueler
01-04-2009, 04:42 AM
Ah, so they discovered new problems!! :lol:
Who would have thought of that!


rofl During sea trials greek leopard 2 showed bad performances. So they will be put out of the water for two years. rofl

Please stop that discussion! We all know the truth.....:|

Amateur
01-04-2009, 05:34 AM
Joking about it is easy and cheap...
Disputing the facts I posted is a bit harder.
Keep trying. p-)

Herman the II
01-04-2009, 06:05 AM
Fact is that KMW delivered 126 tanks and that the Leopard 2 is in service with the Greek army, unfortunately KMW is still waiting for its money.

Mackie
01-04-2009, 06:26 AM
Same here:
STFU flame *****es!

Amateur
01-04-2009, 06:48 AM
@ Herman:
The fact is the tanks had problems, as already proven in posts #131, 142, 152.
The fact is also that Greece has paid for those tanks that were repaired by KMW and found satisfactory, as already proven in post 162.
The fact is, further, that Greece has paid KMW without any delay on other projects like the 24 PzH2000 delivered around the same time to the Hellenic Army.
The fact is, finally, that German arrogance won't accept that a German product had flaws.

@ Mackie:
One more post like that and you will be reported to the mods.
In the meantime go for some beer and Bratwurst to calm down, if you have nothing productive to offer to this discussion.

Mackie
01-04-2009, 06:56 AM
And you think it brings the thread forward posting always the same **** form German or Greek sources?

Herman the II
01-04-2009, 07:03 AM
The fact is also that Greece has paid for those tanks that were repaired and found satisfactory, as already proven in post 162.


No offence, but your personal calculations and assumptions prove nothing.
The point is that the Leopard 2 is in service with the Greek army and therefore was accepted. KMW has delivered 126 tanks but wasn't paid as agreed. The sources are clear: tanks delivered and in service but not all that are delivered are paid.



The fact is, further, that Greece has paid without any delay on other projects like the 24 PzH2000 delivered around the same time to the Hellenic Army.


The PzH2000 deal was finished some time ago and under another Greek government with a different stance on defence issues. Whats the point?




And the fact is, finally, that German arrogance won't accept that a German product had flaws.


Sure buddy...:roll:

Amateur
01-04-2009, 07:36 AM
The point is that the Leopard 2 is in service with the Greek army and therefore was accepted. KMW has delivered 126 tanks but wasn't paid as agreed. The sources are clear: tanks delivered and in service but not all that are delivered are paid.

Look at your phrase in red; you accept that some, but not all, of the tanks delivered were paid. That's also my point: Greece is not denying payment in general. It is denying payment for those tanks that were not satisfactory / and not repairde yet. KMW is only mentioning the 126 tanks delivered (but not all of them officially accepted) and requires payment for all of them. Greece on the other hand will only pay for the tankts officially accepted, which are those of the tanks delivered that were also subsequently repaired by KMW to fix the problems found. That's the difference.


The PzH2000 deal was finished some time ago and under another Greek government with a different stance on defence issues. Whats the point?

The point is that Greece duly pays, if the product is OK.
You are correct that the PzH2000 were ordered under the previous government, but so were also the Leopards (and the subs for that matter). And the contract wasn't finished under the previous government; rather the acceptance tests of the PzH 2000 were done in June 2004 under the current government (government change= March 2004), with deliveries and payments continuing until the beginning of 2005. So you have a perfect parallel for those three contracts: Greece duly paid for one of the systems, but withheld payment for the two others.
Do you think this shows a bad payer? Or perhaps just a tough customer who wants a product flawless as ordered?

Herman the II
01-04-2009, 07:59 AM
KMW is not awaiting payments for all tanks but for those that are delivered, however we have discussed that one before.
The sources and myself never claimed that Greece hasn't payed anything however KMW are still awaiting a 3 digit mil. figure of euros from Greece. You posted a while back that everything is fine now and Greece will pay for all tanks delivered, abviously that's not true.
Not much to discuss for me, Greece is simply not meeting its obligations.


RE: PzH2000
My point was that the deal was finished within 2004 and all those monetary disputes between German companies and Greece started in 2005/2006, because of (what I suspect) a new policy of the Greek government to reduce budgetary pressure.

Mackie
01-04-2009, 08:10 AM
The point is that Greece duly pays, if the product is OK.
You are correct that the PzH2000 were ordered under the previous government, but so were also the Leopards (and the subs for that matter). And the contract wasn't finished under the previous government; rather the acceptance tests of the PzH 2000 were done in June 2004 under the current government (government change= March 2004), with deliveries and payments continuing until the beginning of 2005. So you have a perfect parallel for those three contracts: Greece duly paid for one of the systems, but withheld payment for the two others.
Do you think this shows a bad payer? Or perhaps just a tough customer who wants a product flawless as ordered?

Perhaps the payer was faced a scandal like a faked deficit report?
Or is there any doubt that this had no impact on military spending?

Amateur
01-04-2009, 10:07 AM
So the deficit problem and the cuts in military spending affected two particular programs (tanks and subs), but not all the others? (PzH2000, new F-16s, Mirage 2000-5 etc.). It's not rational. The rational explanation is that those two programs had problems.

GREEK71AIRBORNE
01-04-2009, 10:36 AM
Let us all think reasonable.
Why would Greece has no problems to pay the PzH2000 while doesn't pay the Leo2's?
Its obvius and clear that Greece pays well when the system is also OK. When the system does not fit some creteria that has been signed in contract, its very normal for the customer (Greece) to demand that the problems are fixed first, and then the payment will foloow.

saladin
06-26-2009, 04:23 PM
Germany is not selling additional 13 Leo-2a4 and 30 leo-1a5 to Greece. My understanding from Google translation is Germany officially said that they were not available to Greece anymore as Greece did not bid after repeated requests from Germans.
Money problems (article claims worth just 2 million euros or dollars)? Old and tired tanks? Forgetten to bid? Enought tanks for Greece? It is not clear.

http://74.125.91.132/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&langpair=el|en&u=http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D8123%26Itemid%3D47&tbb=1&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhg7e-NWFFlRwgBVpJcq0dw65Qzeag

Diogenis
06-26-2009, 05:02 PM
I heard from many sources that greek army got the last workable Leo2A4s in good condition as off set for the LEO2HEL order.
Greek army officialls who went to germany in 2005 to select the tanks said that some 200-250 Leo2A4 were in good condition while the rest was already ripped off for spare parts etc. and in very bad condition thus very expensive to refurbish and to introduce.
I heard that turkish army had some serious problems with her second hand Leo2A4 like leaky oil conductors etc?

Anyway,right now greek army has over 350 Leo2HEL/refurbished A4 and over 500 LEO1A5,all massed in thrace.
I am not sure if greek army really needs even 13 additional leaky Leo2A4s from german stocks,not to mention additional of the rest Leo1A5 in german depots.
If greek army needs more of LEO2A4 in future it could get many more as off sets for some future german order(EF2000) which once more would also include some refurbishment work before delivery,like happened also with the very first Leo1A5 we got from germany as off sets for the MEKO order two decades ago.