Man shot dead was not a bomber

[alexz]

LONDON (*******) - A man shot dead by police at a London Underground station on Friday was not one of the four bombers who tried to attack the city's transport system on Thursday, Sky Television reported citing security sources.

"This is what I am picking up from security sources that the man who was shot this morning at Stockwell tube wasn't one of those four bombers that police are hunting," Sky reporter Martin Brunt said.

A spokesman for London's Metropolitan Police said only: "the gentleman shot at Stockwell today has yet to be identified, so it would be impossible to link him to anything at this stage."

Police shot the man a day after four attempted bomb attacks in London and 15 days after bombers killed more than 50 people in the British capital.

Police said the shooting was part of an operation directly linked to an "anti-terrorist" probe.

They said they were still looking for four men in connection with Thursday's attacks, which caused chaos but killed no one.

http://today.*******.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-07-22T162522Z_01_EIC258403_RTRUKOC_0_SECURITY-BRITAIN-SHOT.xml

[Sharp]

We can't blame them, everybody would have made similar...

[alexz]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

"He looked absolutely petrified.
"He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor.
"One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13391824,00.html

Considering the circumstance i think the police did the right thing.
You can't take a chance with things like that.

[Zarathustra]

He refused to listen the order of the cops, that's his own fault.

[coverteye]

0 tolerance.

We have no choice.

They started it. It's Big Boys Rules now.

[XASA]

Guys, there is a discussion on the shooting here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54910

[alexz]

0 tolerance.

We have no choice.

They started it. It's Big Boys Rules now.

I'm not reffering to you personnaly but in General many people that share your views (which are right on the money) are the same
people that called the Israeli army "war criminals" and were calling for
boycuts, and to sent them to the hague and crap like that.

[Pille1234]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

[Sharp]

"One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead.".

They probably thought that he will try to activate its bombs (if he had them) and so preferred to put it " totally " kaput...

[California Joe]

Eyewitness accounts are ass. They are never the same, they are always wrong. It's stupid to take them at face value. Period.

[Bootneck]

"Man shot dead was not a bomber"

I've not seen any reports that rule that out. All the authorities have said at this point is that he is not one of the four suspects caught on CCTV from yesterday's bombings.

[Para]

Now for my two pennce worth on this matter. Armed police are not around by accident. Why did they ask him to stop, Why did he run away, If he thought it was a bit of a joke then it's on him. If had had been doing some thing wrong and decided to run for it then it was a bad mistake. If the police had done nothing and he had triggered a bomb then every one would have been screaming at the Police for not shooting him. It is about time people got there heads out their back sides and realise that fighting terrorist is a dirty business and people are killed on all sides, and if it is in front of them then tough luck.

[jedisponge]

Given the past events, why should the police have believed the suspect didn't present any danger? I mean, if the reports about shooting the suspect when restrained is true might have been a little overboard, who can blame them for being suspicious in the first place?

[Argyll]

That's if it was the Police who actually carried out the shooting!! ;)

[Trigger]

That's if it was the Police who actually carried out the shooting!! ;)
I heard it was Nick Stone with his trusty Browning Hi-Power... :D

[EvanL]

Well someone who wears a down coat in the middle of the summer, on the subway after the second bombing attack in a month, and then ruuns from the police is basically just asking to be killed.
If its just an innocent bystander that happened to be spooked by the police, then its a damn shame and no ones fault. But it seems way too fishy and is way too much of a risk to not have done something and have had something happen.

[Oddbod]

That's if it was the Police who actually carried out the shooting!! ;)

Note the lack of the usual "officer has been routinely suspended from firearms duty pending the result of an inquiry."

The possibility of these plainclothes guys normal attire being green, rather than blue is a wager worth taking.

[EvanL]

That's if it was the Police who actually carried out the shooting!! ;)

Note the lack of the usual "officer has been routinely suspended from firearms duty pending the result of an inquiry."

The possibility of these plainclothes guys normal attire being green, rather than blue is a wager worth taking.
doesnt necessarily mean SAS or even military of any kind. Could be a special branch of Scotland Yard or British Intelligence, although im not sure on the way in which they operate.

[Khabbi]

its his own fult

[Morboute]

uhm, the latest thing i read was that he was suspected to be directly linked to terrorism or something like that.

[alexz]

uhm, the latest thing i read was that he was suspected to be directly linked to terrorism or something like that.

He Probably was. This doesn't mean he was a suicide bomber.
He could be part of the logitics team or the bomb maker.
What certain is that if he was captured alive he would have valuable
information. Also they could kick his terrorist ars for a few days.

[stoked]

They never said he was one of the bombers.

[The Kid]

Supposedly, the police had been tailing him since the incidents yesterday. When they saw him heading for the tube, they expidited their response. Had he listened to them, he would be alive now. This was suicide by cop.

[futurepilot2004]

No offence to the guy.
It was the day after a series of bombings on the underground, he was wearing a winter jacket on a sunny day, he was of asian extraction(I know some people are against racial profiling but.....), the police shouted at him to stay still, he ran away from them, onto a tube train (those targeted by the terrorists both yesterday and 7/7)......what are the police supposed to do? In this case, He had it coming.

[TallGuy]

That's if it was the Police who actually carried out the shooting!! ;)
I heard it was Nick Stone with his trusty Browning Hi-Power... :D

Nick Stone rocks! :D
They should make a movie about him.

[Morboute]

That's if it was the Police who actually carried out the shooting!! ;)
I heard it was Nick Stone with his trusty Browning Hi-Power... :D

Nick Stone rocks! :D
They should make a movie about him.

x2


But anyways, the best would have been to take him in alive but it was the safest thing for them self (and the people around) thing to do if he indeed had a bomb on him. If he wasnt a terrorist, then he was a freaking moron.

[Pulsar]

then he was a freaking moron.

most likely

[PhillyMobster]

If it does turn out that the guy was innocent, I'll be interested to know why he was running from the police in the first place. In any event, he's certainly guilty of blind stupidity, if not anything else.

[Seraphim]

Maybe the cop who shot him had a ND...he shoves his smg into the back of the suspect and oops, finger on the trigger.

[Mur'al]

Having just watched the world news the Commissioner of the Met Police said the deceased was under police surveillance prior to the shooting and looking at the fact that the surveillance team was armed would suggest very strongly that this guy was a player. Looking at what’s known the police did the right thing.
Now the officers involved will have to suffer the IA investigation and the personal attacks from the pinko leftist idiots. Strength brothers

[pathfinder82]

We can't blame them, everybody would have made similar...

I agree, I would have shot him dead too.

He was obviously up to no good and he was being tracked. He left his house with a winter coat and ran when the police confronted him, not to mention he ran into the underground and straight for a train car.

Not the best thing to do if you value your life.

[<Gypsum Fantastic>]

Just a note...

This article does not say that this guy wasn't bomber, just that "A man shot dead by police at a London Underground station on Friday was not one of the four bombers who tried to attack the city's transport system on Thursday"

Still could have been a bomber, just not one of those bombers.

[Weasel]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

[SPQR]

He wasn't a bomber but he was a distraction planted by the terrorists. The terrorists needed someone to draw attention away from the real attacks (which luckily failed). The terrorists probably told the guy, "Wear this winter coat on a hot day, head down into the tube and get the cops attention. Look, Brit cops don't carry guns, they'll just arrest you and we'll get some sleazy lawyer to get you off and then we can claim racial profiling since you aren't carrying explosives". Well guess what, the Brits are playing for keeps now. The head shots showed they're professionalism; you always shoot for the head if you suspect there might be a bomb belt.

[Macs.]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(

[Freibier]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(
Naja, jemanden der aufm Boden liegt festzuhalten damit der Kollege nen Kopfschuss ansetzen kann is halt schon ne Schweinerei ...
Und da ist es dann auch ganz egal wer da gelegen hat - festnehmen ok aber hinrichten ist bei uns halt illegal und verfassungsfeindlich - aber sowas stört so junge spacken wie dich halt ned ...

[Macs.]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(
Naja, jemanden der aufm Boden liegt festzuhalten damit der Kollege nen Kopfschuss ansetzen kann is halt schon ne Schweinerei ...
Und da ist es dann auch ganz egal wer da gelegen hat - festnehmen ok aber hinrichten ist bei uns halt illegal und verfassungsfeindlich - aber sowas stört so junge spacken wie dich halt ned ...

1. English.

2. I don't care for Wolfgang Grams, since he was a terrorist and killed serval people includig a GSG-9 operator.

[Pille1234]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(
Naja, jemanden der aufm Boden liegt festzuhalten damit der Kollege nen Kopfschuss ansetzen kann is halt schon ne Schweinerei ...
Und da ist es dann auch ganz egal wer da gelegen hat - festnehmen ok aber hinrichten ist bei uns halt illegal und verfassungsfeindlich - aber sowas stört so junge spacken wie dich halt ned ...

Read the official report from the independent investigation team. No one has been executed. He killed himself. End of story.

[Weasel]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(
Naja, jemanden der aufm Boden liegt festzuhalten damit der Kollege nen Kopfschuss ansetzen kann is halt schon ne Schweinerei ...
Und da ist es dann auch ganz egal wer da gelegen hat - festnehmen ok aber hinrichten ist bei uns halt illegal und verfassungsfeindlich - aber sowas stört so junge spacken wie dich halt ned ...

Read the official report from the independent investigation team. No one has been executed. He killed himself. End of story.

Now, I am convinced. :lol:

[Macs.]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(
Naja, jemanden der aufm Boden liegt festzuhalten damit der Kollege nen Kopfschuss ansetzen kann is halt schon ne Schweinerei ...
Und da ist es dann auch ganz egal wer da gelegen hat - festnehmen ok aber hinrichten ist bei uns halt illegal und verfassungsfeindlich - aber sowas stört so junge spacken wie dich halt ned ...

Read the official report from the independent investigation team. No one has been executed. He killed himself. End of story.

Now, I am convinced. :lol:

AFAIK the investigations said that there are neither enough proves for a suicide or a "execution".

[JoaMei]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(
Naja, jemanden der aufm Boden liegt festzuhalten damit der Kollege nen Kopfschuss ansetzen kann is halt schon ne Schweinerei ...
Und da ist es dann auch ganz egal wer da gelegen hat - festnehmen ok aber hinrichten ist bei uns halt illegal und verfassungsfeindlich - aber sowas stört so junge spacken wie dich halt ned ...

Read the official report from the independent investigation team. No one has been executed. He killed himself. End of story.

Now, I am convinced. :lol:

AFAIK the investigations said that there are neither enough proves for a suicide or a "execution".

If you give credibillity to leftist conspiracy groups that have no access to anything....

[Weasel]

Seems like he was executed
According to an eye witness.

Ask 3 eye witnesses and you hear 5 different versions. As long as there's nothing official it's all mumbling.

Reminds me of Bad Kleinen. Remember? :|

Cry me a river. :(
Naja, jemanden der aufm Boden liegt festzuhalten damit der Kollege nen Kopfschuss ansetzen kann is halt schon ne Schweinerei ...
Und da ist es dann auch ganz egal wer da gelegen hat - festnehmen ok aber hinrichten ist bei uns halt illegal und verfassungsfeindlich - aber sowas stört so junge spacken wie dich halt ned ...

Read the official report from the independent investigation team. No one has been executed. He killed himself. End of story.

Now, I am convinced. :lol:

AFAIK the investigations said that there are neither enough proves for a suicide or a "execution".

If you give credibillity to leftist conspiracy groups that have no access to anything....

rofl

Das ist natürlich das Signal, genug gedauert hat's ja auch
Jetzt kommt der Schuß auf die Beine doch getroffen wird der Bauch
Und Wolfgang G. bricht zusammen und fällt auf die Gleise
In Sekunden danach ist dann alles ganz leise
...
Zwei vermummte Polizisten knien über ihm
Er ist kaum noch bei Bewußtsein, doch sie meinen er will fliehen


Lyrics by "Dritte Wahl". p-)

[Ché]

gsg und terroristenjäger
todesschützen und brutale schläger

excuse my question, till now i didn't hear details of that incident in london.
are there proofs, that legitimate the execution in a way or just unproven speculations ?

[Weasel]

gsg und terroristenjäger
todesschützen und brutale schläger

excuse my question, till now i didn't hear details of that incident in london.
are there proofs, that legitimate the execution in a way or just unproven speculations ?

The incident is some time ago - 1993. There is no proof for an execution nor against an execution. Just very doubtful citcumstances. Nobody really expected that members of the police whistle-blows one of his colleagues. ;)

[Weasel]

If you are interested:

http://www.specwarnet.com/europe/gsg9oops.htm

[Ché]

thank you but i asked about the incident in london.

über bad k. bin ich informiert. alles imo sehr fragwürdig imo.
was ich persönlich aus vorfällen, wie in bad k. mitgenommen habe ist misstrauen.

but offtopic..

[Pille1234]

Keep your personal conspiracy theories out of this thread pls.

Back on topic:


Shot man not connected to bombing
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.
A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy" which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police.

The man was shot dead after police followed him from a south London flat to Stockwell Tube station on Friday.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.

The statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

The statement confirmed the man was followed by police from a block of flats that was under surveillance.

The man's death is being investigated by officers from the MPS Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

[vampireuk]

And yet he ran..

[Javehn]

Congratulations :|

[Weasel]

Keep your personal conspiracy theories out of this thread pls.

Thank you for your advice. But it´s not a personal theorie and fits to the speculations about the incident.

Btw. the killed man was innocent:

Sorry, only in german.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,366606,00.html

[usa320]

And yet he ran..

yeah, wtf?

Maybe he wasnt involved in the bombings, but he had to have been guilty of some crime, why else would he run from the police?

[Macs.]

And yet he ran..

yeah, wtf?

Maybe he wasnt involved in the bombings, but he had to have been guilty of some crime, why else would he run from the police?

Maybe a missunderstanding.

But the speculation is worthless anyway.

[M203]

From the times


The armed branches of the Metropolitan Police, which is believed to have been reinforced with special forces, has recently been given revised rules of engagement to deal with the threat of suicide bombers, which imply the immediate use of lethal force if the lives of civilians or officers are under threat.



Hint hint...

[JoaMei]

Maybe he thought they would beat him up because hes a Muslim?

Did they identify themself as police?

[Argyll]

People run for all sorts of reasons,I'm not excusing this mans actions,but the next time one of you lot are out,and all of a sudden 3-5 armed men run towards you shouting........see what your natural instincts would be!!

It's not standing still that's for sure...........the only person who knows why he ran is the shot man............the actions of the police given the info they had did the right thing........but it goes to show that mistakes can and inevitably will be made when it comes to identification of "players"

[henksmoeder]

Yup, many here say that it was his own fault cause he ran from the police, but they were all plainclothes and screaming to someone that you are with the police in one of the busiest subway systems is not heard all the time probably. Although understandable to from the cops side, still quite sad given the fact that he was innocent (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm).

[alexz]

I heard something about the posibilty that the man that was shot is
Brazilian and not connected at all to the bombings. :oops:

[Bulkowski]

Mmmm lawsuits a' brewin'

[00]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41333000/gif/_41333933_stockwell_station_6inf416.gif

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street
2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms
3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it
4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead

-BBC

[joshfox0]

:( RIP to the guy but i personally don't understand why he didn't stop. possibly he didn't have a very extensive knowledge of english and while panicing you do tend to think in your native tounge not that of what country you are in.

[Ché]

it's a tragedy, what terrorism and so called anti-terrorism-measures
do to the the civilrights in western democracies. hard times for all
rucksack-wearing, arabic/african-looking people.

r.i.p.

[Roy Batty]

Mmmm lawsuits a' brewin'

Screw the lawsuits.... Charges a 'brewin'.

[JTAR7242]

Btw. the killed man was innocent:

Nobody is innocent, only less guilty.


The guy signed his own death certificate when he ran. It's tragic, but if they identified themselves properly, then it is entirely his fault.

[SPQR]

He was wearing a heavy winter coat at a time when Europe is experiencing a record heat wave, especially in the London tube where it will be several degrees hotter, a typical costume for suicide
bombers........ Hmmmmm

He jumped the turnstyle and fled from officers, they were plain clothed but when all the other passengers saw armed plain clothes officers running their way, no-one else fled.............. Hmmmmmm

He happened to pull this stunt during a time when other bombers were attemping to plant explosives and just after the worldwide publicity of the last subway bombings tightened security................ Hmmmmmmm

How to get around security?

There have been 4 pages of conjecture wasted on this story, can it not be more plain that he was a decoy? (Or he was sent to test response times and defensive measures, another form of "decoy") I cannot believe how sheltered and /or naive some of you are. This is like the abc's of organized criminal activity, if there was a university for organized crime, this would be taught in the first semester. WAKE UP! Wether your stealing jewelery from a store, holding up a bank, planting a bomb, infiltrating a military base, smuggling drugs over a border; YOU ALWAYS USE A DECOY individual or event to mask your true activities. And you make sure that the individual or event is COMPLETELY OBVIOUS but cannot be tied to you in any way. Of course the decoy probably didn't plan on meeting lethal force, but thats just too bad.

[jedisponge]

It could be the fact that there were some plain clothed officers chasing him that scared him. Seeing a police officer yelling at me to stop would've be different from what would've appeared to be some average Joe yelling at you to stop. Of course I'm not taking into consideration that there could've been both plain and dressed cops telling him to stop at the same time, but I'm just saying if some plain dressed person told me to stop for no reason I wouldn't.

[Pulsar]

Both parties ****ed up.

The 'innocent' man ****ed up.

The cops (or whatever) ****ed up.

[Chops]

SPQR

Spot on with your major points although I wouldn't be too confident on the decoy theory just yet.

When y'all are conjecturing about the deceased running because he didn't realise they were cops consider two things-

1. SO19 typically don hi-vis police caps (actually called c**t caps in MPS due to their similarity to a certain area of the female anatomy) once they are involved in an incident. Along with clearly marking them as police for Joe Q Public, it also marks them out for other responding armed officers to legislate against blue on blues. I suspect that the guys on this job would have put these on.

2. If the deceased believed the pursuing gents were anything other than plainclothes coppers, why do eyewitness accounts of the shooting state that they say multiple plainclothes police enter the tube carriage? It was clear enough for these folks to ident these guys as cops but not the deceased?

And finally, and reiterating what others have said- big ass winter coat in a heatwave, ignored challenges from and ran from armed police (not just ran but vaulted the fking turnstile) and all of this in a tube station a day after four punters tried to set off four bombs and two weeks after four suicide bombers killed 56 on the same transport network. Think about all of this (and the fact that the shooters had seconds or less to decide whether this guy was a suicide bomber or not before dropping him) before you start taking shots at the Met and the guys involved.

May not be PC but this guy was a grade A fking idiot. If he's not involved it's regrettable and a tragedy for the deceased's family but look at what we know and decide for yourself whether the coppers were right in dropping him. From what we know now, I support the shoot 100%.

rgds, C

[elguapo]

I don´t know, it does looks suspicious. Why would anyone run from cops like he did.

About he´s clothes. I really don´t know what´s considered a heat wave by the english standard but I decided to look on CNN the current temperatures and forecast.

Being brazilian my self I can say for me anything bellow 68F 20C is cold enough to wear a coat or a sweater.


note: I have no idea what the temperature was when this happened

note2: he had been living in london for 4 years which is more than enough to get used to the climate

note3: If you watch american police cameras mounted on cruisers you will see many people running away from cops when speeding or something. These turn out to be regular folks, house wifes etc... But of course I´ve never seen anyone fleeing on foot.


July 24, 2005 3:22 AM GMT

CURRENT CONDITIONS

60°F
(16°C) >>>>this is cold :)
Cloudy

Sunday
73°F (23°C) | 55°F (13°C)
Monday
70°F (21°C) | 60°F (16°C)
Tuesday
70°F (21°C) | 55°F (13°C)
Wednesday
67°F (19°C) | 58°F (14°C)
Thursday
67°F (19°C) | 57°F (14°C)

[Redux]

ok i read a ******* article saying that he was just an electrician. so is he affiliated or connected to the bombers in any way? or was him getting shot an accident?

[Bombtrack]

ok i read a ******* article saying that he was just an electrician. so is he affiliated or connected to the bombers in any way? or was him getting shot an accident?

Read the thread?

[Hugh Jardon]

I will not fault the policemen for what they did, I heard that the guy was running from them. Tough, he should have stayed still and did what he was told.

I was in the Belarussian Voksal in Moscow last november. I was in a hurry to catch my train and I wasn't paying attention and I walked through a checkpoint. The loud voices caught my attention and when I turned around 3 men in camos were yelling at me in Russian. I froze and I KEPT MY HANDS IN SIGHT, they quickly understood that I did not speak Russian well and was a tourist, searched my bags, told me to be very careful and let me go.

If this guy was running then it is his fault. I do wish him the best and I hope his mother can forgive the policemen but I do not think anyone has a leg to stand on when it comes to judging the police officers.

Godspeed to the poor man. :(

[00]

It could also be a suicide.

[AROUETLJ]

I was under the impression that the man had actually been followed since leaving his home that morning. How could 20 plain-clothes policemen have been present if that was not the case?

If it is indeed true that the man was being followed, then this is a major intelligence ****-up. And as someone said, 16C is a cold January day where I live. Yes, the man's actions may have been suspicious, but to shoot the wrong man, after having kept the WRONG address under surveillance, is something which you wouldn't expect from the best police force in the world.

The decoy theory I think we may safely discard.

The British government is putting a brave face on it, but I bet heads will be rolling in some departments.

[pathfinder82]

Both parties f*** up.

The 'innocent' man f*** up.

The cops (or whatever) f*** up.



Yeah welll I would have to agree after it has come out that he had no connection with terrorism.

The guy mentioned in the middle though made some seriously stupid moves that day, and payed with his life.

I think its safe to say that the officer in question would have rather ended his day without having shot and killed someone. I hope hes ok in the head a the moment, cant imagine you would get much sleep after that.

There are a lot of cops who pull the trigger and never return to the job afterwards.

[username]

I will not fault the policemen for what they did, I heard that the guy was running from them. Tough, he should have stayed still and did what he was told.

I don't think you should fault the police/whoever for that either since you don't even know what really happened! Not many people do at this stage and it would be wise of everyone here to held thier opinions until they have enough information to form a decent one! :roll:

[TWNSF JEFF]

me thinks a lot of "flashers" are going to get whacked...

[Weasel]

It could also be a suicide.

5 shots in the head really sounds like suicide. :lol:

[von_Moo142]

About he´s clothes. I really don´t know what´s considered a heat wave by the english standard but I decided to look on CNN the current temperatures and forecast.

Being brazilian my self I can say for me anything bellow 68F 20C is cold enough to wear a coat or a sweater.



Anything around 25C seems hot, and around 30C is a heatwave, IMO.

We haven't been having very hot weather in the last week, and it might have been below 20C in the mornings. That doesn't seem cold to me, but I know people from warmer nations who would have worn a coat.

[Dominique]

I'm not going to try and Monday morning qurterback the situation. It's all fine and dandy to sit back in your home or office and try to analyze the situation after the fact, but neither you nor I was there. Until you have to face a situation where you have to use force to seriously harm another human being, you don't know what kind of pressure that places you under.

From what I can gather, the cops were in a bad situation. They only had a few seconds to make a decision, shot or don't shoot. They ahd been follwing the guy for a while. They gave the guy several chances to stop, and he refused. Instead he ran into a crowded subway station. For all they knew, he could have been a potential suicide bomber, and if they had given him a chance to get on the train, he could have killed or wounded dozens of people.

All this talk about shooting to wound is a bunch of crap from some hollywood movie or a bad TV cop show. You aim center mass and you shoot to stop. If one shot does not do it, you keep shooting until you hit something that will stop the person. If you think the guys wearing body armor, is behind cover, or needs to be immediately stopped, you take the head shot.

Given the situation they were in, the possiblity that he may be trying to set off a bomb, they had to stop him. They couldn't take the chance and allow him to possibly detonate an explosive device. The only way to do that was to kill him before he could act. As long he was still breathing he was a possible threat. The cops did waht they had to do. It's that simple.

As far as the media "experts" trying to analyze this goes, they live for this stuff. It gives them a chance to get on the tube, flap their gums, and try to make themselves look important. Most, if not all, of them don't have a clue.

[GrantT]

So what if he came from Brazil? He's been living in the UK for 3 years, people adapt to weather conditions in that space of time!

[Clarsachier]

very different in the U.S..

The London chief of police came right out and said it was a mistake and
regrettable. He didn't make any excuses. Whatsoever.

Another quote, "we (the London Police) will take full responsibility."

This is a real culture shock to hear this kind of response from the police from an American POV.

[DPGLAW]

I had heard on the radio this morning further information about this incident, specifically that this guy was being watch and serveilled as a "potential" suicide bomber and when the Metro Police approached him and asked him to surrender & come with them, he decided to resist and exerted an aggressive attitude twords them. Given what the situation in the UK was, the threat known to ALL citizens & non-citizens in country, I would say I think that these officers were in the right. While tragic that an innocent man died, he should have surrendered to them, especially as if he had done nothing, it would of all been cleared up. By acting aggresively and "resisting" he probably made them feel unsafe and therefore they were justified in thier actions, although it was a tragic incident. Those questioned by the police should not react in such a way, they are only making themselves more suspicious and they than appear as a threat.

[Argyll]

Dunno about that Grant,

I find it cold in the UK when I come back from the Middle East 9/10,even at 20 degrees..........which is mild by UK standards


Too much has been made of the coat situation......IIRC that the last bunch of bombers carried the devices in backpacks...and not strapped within a vest...........

If he was a suspect from the day before,the cops should already have known what type of device to expect,it's composition and how to deal with it!!

If I was followed and didn't know whom it was ,at the first available opportunity I'd create distance between them and myself,and that would mean breaking into a run!!........how many people have been chased by thugs, in their lifetime?given the area and levels of violence including the use of weapons,what's now clear is that criminals who use them can now shout out the words "Armed police!!..........stop"........and you would know they were not armed Police by?......

Those with local knowledge of London........can they give the distance of the house under survaullance to the entrance of the tube station?

The cops had ample time to arrest and detain,the minute he left the house,and they were at fault for letting the "suspect" get onto the tube or even into the station.

That being said,they did what they were trained to do,and within the Intelligence boundaries they had.


Will the wearing of Large jackets and the carrying of rucksacks be outlawed within the Tubestations.........why can't the tubes have the same xray machines like the airports have?

[BlackRain]

Muslims back 'shoot to kill' despite an innocent man's death

Telegraph - By David Harrison and Chris Johnston (Filed: 24/07/2005)

Leading British Muslims last night backed the police's "shoot-to-kill" policy to tackle the threat of suicide bombers, despite a police admission that the man shot dead at Stockwell Tube station on Friday was not a terrorist.

Politicians and civil liberties activists called for a review of the policy but said that it was justified when officers concluded that a suspect posed a genuine threat.

Khalid Mahmood: 'The death of an innocent man is a terrible tragedy' The tactic was used against a suspected suicide attacker for the first time on Friday when a police officer shot dead a man on an Underground train at Stockwell, south London, firing five bullets into his head.

Under Operation Kratos, a senior officer is on standby 24 hours a day to authorise the deployment of armed squads to track and, where necessary, shoot suspected suicide bombers.

Last night, as the Metropolitan Police admitted that the Stockwell man had proved to have no links to the terror investigation, Khalid Mahmood, the Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Bar, told The Sunday Telegraph that he still supported the new tactics.

"The death of an innocent man is a terrible tragedy and we have to feel sympathy for him and his family and also the police," he said.

"But the basic principles remain the same. As long as the police have robust procedures in place then, if a suspect ignores a command to stop and is deemed to be jeopardising the lives of other people, shooting to kill is justified. Anyone who ignores a police challenge will nearly always have something to hide and will know that he is putting his own life at risk by running away.

"The civil liberties of those whose lives are threatened have to take priority over the rights of someone assessed in good faith by highly trained police officers to be a suicide bomber."

Shami Chakrabarti, a human rights lawyer and director of Liberty, the civil rights group, said: "Our hearts go out to the family of the dead man and to the officers involved in this incident.

"No one should rush to judgment. In any case of this kind - especially at a time of heightened tension - there must be a prompt, comprehensive and independent investigation into what happened and it must cover the guidelines and the training of officers."

But she said that the shoot-to-kill policy was acceptable in exceptional situations. "If the action is carried out by properly trained officers and the authority is given, based on a proper assessment of the risk that innocent people could die, then in those circumstances it could be justified," Ms Chakrabarti said.

"These are knife-edge, split-second decisions made in moments of grave danger. We have a massive shared interest in the protection of innocent lives. Our police are not trigger-happy and it could be a reasoned and proper decision to kill somebody in certain circumstances."

Some Muslim leaders, however, expressed concern about shoot-to-kill. Sir Iqbal Sacranie, the secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "We accept that the police are under tremendous pressure, but it's vital that the utmost care is taken to ensure that innocent people are not killed due to over-zealousness."

Abdulhaq Addae, a spokesman for Brixton mosque, said that he was "disturbed" by the policy but would support it if the police had "clear evidence" that a suspect was a suicide bomber.

"There is a case for shoot-to-kill if it will stop nutcases blowing up innocent people, but the police have got to have more concrete evidence that the suspect is a suicide bomber before they start firing bullets into someone's head," he said.

Other local people expressed similar unease. Mousa Sharifa, who owns a café in Brixton market, said: "Not everyone who runs away from the police is a terrorist. Some people might be scared of being questioned because they do not speak English or have overstayed their visas.

"This is not the first time that police have shot someone by mistake - it happened in Hackney not so long ago. But if the police have good reason to suspect that someone has a bomb or is a genuine threat then of course police have to defend themselves."

Click to enlarge The Metropolitan Police will not discuss Operation Kratos officially but it is understood that the tactics have been in place for about a year based on guidance from Israeli and Sri Lankan officers on how to combat suicide bombers or "deadly and determined attackers" as they are called officially.

The Met's anti-terrorist branch, SO13, implemented the response to dealing with suicide bombers, based on advice from the Association of Chief Police Officers, after the July 7 attacks.

Senior police officers said that tactics had changed because of the "unique problems" posed by suicide bombers - attackers who are prepared, and usually want, to die with their victims.

The guidance states that in extreme circumstances an armed officer can shoot a suspect in the head if the intelligence suggests that he is a suicide bomber who poses an imminent danger to the public or police. This is to avoid setting off any explosives that might be attached to his body. Five shots are deemed necessary to render a terrorist incapable of detonating his bomb.

The officer can open fire only if authorised to do so by a chief police officer - either at the start of a pre-planned operation, as seems to have been the case at Stockwell, or by police radio during a "spontaneous" incident.

The suspect shot dead had been under surveillance and officers from the Metropolitan Police's firearms squad are understood to have been briefed that he posed a grave risk to safety. The Association of Chief Police Officers has a rule book, the Manual on Police Use of Firearms, which says that police may use force only "when strictly necessary and to the extent required for the performance of their duty".

Ms Chakrabarti said that she was "concerned" that British police had been trained by Israeli officers.

She also criticised the Association of Chief Police Officers' call for new legislation to deal with terrorists, including a demand for police to be allowed to detain suspected terrorists for up to three months. "We already have enough pre-emptive legislation to combat terrorism," she said.

"If there are gaps then the law should be changed by democratically elected politicians. But I cannot see any rationale for increasing police powers of detention to three months."

Scotland Yard declined to say last night whether the tactics for dealing with suspected suicide bombers would be reviewed. The Independent Police Complaints Commission will investigate the shooting, as it does all similar incidents as a matter of course.

[szr]

very different in the U.S..

The London chief of police came right out and said it was a mistake and
regrettable. He didn't make any excuses. Whatsoever.

Another quote, "we (the London Police) will take full responsibility."

This is a real culture shock to hear this kind of response from the police from an American POV.
The US is a big place, so speak for yourself.

[von_Moo142]

I reckon it's worth remembering that some of the police in Brazil aren't always the good guys either.


So what if he came from Brazil? He's been living in the UK for 3 years, people adapt to weather conditions in that space of time!

I knew a guy from Sicily who had lived here for a few years and never really got used to the difference in temperature. I guess it depends on the individual.


why can't the tubes have the same xray machines like the airports have?

I used to travel on the bombed section of the Piccadilly line fairly often, usually to get to the mainline stations at Kings Cross. During the rush hour there must be at least 500 people on the trains at that point. With a train in each direction every few minutes that's a lot of people. You might have around fifty or more getting on and off at stations like Leicester Square and Kings Cross for each train on the Piccadilly line alone. Add the other lines in, and that works out as a lot of people.

There just isn't the space to put the equipment or the people waiting to be checked. And even if there was, the queues would become potential targets for the bombers, just as checkpoints are targeted in Iraq.

[AROUETLJ]

The British media are going on about how the police were wrong to shoot the man when he ran away from them.

But it's not like the police spotted this random person and shot him. They were keeping the apartment block he lived in under surveillance. It baffles me to think that, after the British Police showed such amazing professionalism in their investigations after the London bombings, they could not ID the persons living in the block, and weed out the terrorist suspects from the innocent people.

Another thing. This guy didn't have a particularly "Middle-Eastern/Pakistani" appearance. If the police are going to shoot anyone wearing a coat who doesn't stop when half a dozen people in civilian clothing are pointing a pistol at him, then we're all in trouble.

I think the best bet is to carry a large can of lager and act like a binge-drinker. Then you can tell the police to **** off when they ask you to stop. It's much safer that way.

[Weasel]

The British media are going on about how the police were wrong to shoot the man when he ran away from them.

But it's not like the police spotted this random person and shot him. They were keeping the apartment block he lived in under surveillance. It baffles me to think that, after the British Police showed such amazing professionalism in their investigations after the London bombings, they could not ID the persons living in the block, and weed out the terrorist suspects from the innocent people.

Another thing. This guy didn't have a particularly "Middle-Eastern/Pakistani" appearance. If the police are going to shoot anyone wearing a coat who doesn't stop when half a dozen people in civilian clothing are pointing a pistol at him, then we're all in trouble.

I think the best bet is to carry a large can of lager and act like a binge-drinker. Then you can tell the police to f*** off when they ask you to stop. It's much safer that way.

I am curious. What are British Media saying about the "5 headshots"?

[Argyll]

Good grouping?















Sorry........................very bad joke!!

[Russ.Dill]

It could also be a suicide.

5 shots in the head really sounds like suicide. :lol:

right, because you've never actually heard of suicide by cop, have you?

[Russ.Dill]

very different in the U.S..

The London chief of police came right out and said it was a mistake and
regrettable. He didn't make any excuses. Whatsoever.

Another quote, "we (the London Police) will take full responsibility."

This is a real culture shock to hear this kind of response from the police from an American POV.

eh? In the US, any cop involved in any shooting situation is immediately put on paid administrative leave, and investigated. I'm not sure what distorted view of reality you have, maybe its because officers don't admit guilt for situations in which they are not at fault, or maybe its just that the LAPD sucks.

[JoaMei]

It could also be a suicide.

5 shots in the head really sounds like suicide. :lol:

right, because you've never actually heard of suicide by cop, have you?

Right, he actually knew a special police force is behind him and thought it would be a good idea to play a suicide bomber.... and all that in a second.

He jumped over the ticket gates an perhaps was thinking they are going to arrest him now for that. :|

[elguapo]

Another thing. This guy didn't have a particularly "Middle-Eastern/Pakistani" appearance. If the police are going to shoot anyone wearing a coat who doesn't stop when half a dozen people in civilian clothing are pointing a pistol at him, then we're all in trouble.




If they do that people start complaining about racism. And even though profiling can be effective remember that one of the suicide bombers was a Jamaican.

[Weasel]

Good grouping?

Sorry........................very bad joke!!

p-)

[Steve Andrews]

BBC tells us that the guy was shot 7 times in the head and once in the shoulder...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

Were they using Glock 18s ??

[Pille1234]

Security sources have said Mr Menezes had been in the UK on an out-of-date student visa, but his family deny this and are considering suing the police.

That could explain why he was on the run.

[California Joe]

I've related this before in a self deprecating manner but it's pertinent in this case because of the general lack of understanding about the kinds of split second decisions and incredible adrenaline rush followed by the sweats that the general public doesn't understand. I was investigating a B&E at a large sports/recreational facility. Alarm going off, middle of the night, back door swinging open, multiple levels, several floors. I start up the winding stairs while my partner checks the 1st floor, I make it to the second floor landing and turn the corner and see a guy pointing a gun at me, I almost fired...............turns out it was a full length mirror and it was me. But for a split second I didn't know whether to shoot, **** or go blind. Later all I thought was about the abuse I would have gotten at the station for double tapping myself in a mirror...... There is no "undo" command in real life for these guys.

[Argyll]

Yeah and I heard you still missed!!!!! :D p-)

[big_les]

My concern now is that HM Gov are using the 'difficult situation to be in' argument as an 'everybody wins' scapegoating exercise to stop the failure of intelligence from getting the media and public battering it deserves. In other words, the cops that opened fire get the blame from various angles but most people understand the situation and so calls for people's jobs and freedom aren't made. The politicians play on this, thereby deflecting the blame away from the police inspectors and whoever else who should actually be responsible for the man's death.

I think we almost all agree that given the scenario of suspected bomber running from armed police onto a train, that the officers present had no choice but to take him down. BUT as Argyll implied, what went wrong with the surveillance and other intelligence that allowed the officers present to believe that a Brazilian electrician with an expired work permit was potentially an Islamist suicide bomber using an 'old skool' suicide vest rather than a rucksack?

Is it the intelligence services that are to blame? The police carrying out the surveillance of the residence? It certainly isn't the officers firing the shots, unless they were party to the full intelligence picture.

[California Joe]

Yeah and I heard you still missed!!!!! :D p-)

:lol: Take that back.

[Argyll]

No!! :lol:

I have a puzzling question about the suspected suicide bombers?

The guy on the bus?...............all the pics seem to show him on an empty bus.....seems a bit strange being an alleged "Suicide bomber" to get onto an empty bus............why not one full of people?

Instead he left the device on the bus,and then got off,was this because there was nobody there to kill,or was it he wasn't actually a suicide bomber at all?.......why not just get off,grab your bomb and get onto another fuller bus if it was your intention to blow yourself up and kill as many as possible?

[big_les]

No!! :lol:

I have a puzzling question about the suspected suicide bombers?

The guy on the bus?...............all the pics seem to show him on an empty bus.....seems a bit strange being an alleged "Suicide bomber" to get onto an empty bus............why not one full of people?

Instead he left the device on the bus,and then got off,was this because there was nobody there to kill,or was it he wasn't actually a suicide bomber at all?.......why not just get off,grab your bomb and get onto another fuller bus if it was your intention to blow yourself up and kill as many as possible?

Pretty sure it wasn't empty, as there were eyewitnesses to the rucksack being split open. There's also the issue of syncronisation; the first explosions happened very close together indeed and by design. There's not time to look for another bus once the plan is in motion, added to which people get on and off buses very regularly. Your man there doesn't want to be doing a Benny Hill trying to get a bus with the max number of victims on it when he's bound to get at least a few on the bus and add to the general terrorising effect.

One of the other guys was seen prostrating himself over his rucksack and then cursing and running off when it didn't blow (more civilian reports admittedly).

[joe mama]

Right, he actually knew a special police force is behind him and thought it would be a good idea to play a suicide bomber.... and all that in a second.

He jumped over the ticket gates an perhaps was thinking they are going to arrest him now for that. :|

There have been numerous cases I've heard of in the US where people were completely cornered by the police and still tried to attack them, almost certainly knowing they were going to be killed. There also have been cases where disturbed people, some known to have attempted suicided before, have attacked officers in an apparent attempt to have the cops kill them. Some of these people, whether desperate criminals or just plain crazy have, effectively, committed suicide by cop...

[Argyll]

Les,
I agree,but in the Press pics the seats are empty,why did nobody try to detain him,why didn't the driver jump out and lock the doors keeping him on?

If a timer was involved then this is even more unusual,as suicide bomber initiate the devices themselves,and not rely on a timer!!