Contractor Sounds Off on US Army in Iraq

[KB]

this guy sounds like he had a real bad day when he posted this. Iraq "BTDTs" please comment.

Guest Column: A Contractor in Iraq Says Soldiers Unfit

By Frank Harris

I am one of the U.S. contractors working in Iraq making the big bucks. Personally, I have not run into any animosity between contractors and U.S. Army or Air Force personnel. Most Army folks I talk to just want to get out, officer and enlisted, and get a job with us.

I had read some of the letters Army people have written about contractors just wanting the money, anything for the buck, no patriotism, etc. What a load of garbage. They are just green with envy. Why? I will tell you.

I did 20 years in the shameful disaster called the U.S. Army, retiring last year as soon as I was eligible. I did seven years in the regular Army, then did 13 years as an 18B/D, Special Forces Weapons, then as a medical sergeant. I had once loved the Army, but the Army turned into a welfare system for the dregs of American society. I see the Army over here In Iraq and I want to vomit.

We are going to lose this fiasco and hard. I see Army people here in a combat zone woefully unprepared for what they face. I see women who can't pull the charging handle back on an M2 .50-cal., yet are up in the turret of a Humvee. I see self-serving officers and idiot lobotomized sergeants-major having troops starch uniforms in this 120+ heat. Doing police calls in the garbage dump called Iraq. Soldiers carrying their weapons unloaded, wherever they go on base with no ammunition, yet having to clear these weapons upon entering any building, constantly. Why? I see female troops lugging the M-249 SAW with obviously great difficulty.

I see the majority of troops here never leaving the Green Zone or a secure area, deathly afraid of what is "outside the gates," which by the way is where the contractors work daily. They take up their day snapping digital pics in the Camp Victory parking lot near combat vehicles trying to look like they are in combat while eating at Burger King. I see girls in maternity uniforms, in sneakers, on profile, waddling around Camp Victory; male soldiers wearing sneakers on profile. It's business as usual for the U.S. Army.

I see how combat soldiers, those who venture out of the secure areas are, looked down upon with animosity, treated not too nicely by the pogues back on base. However, you can bet these pogues all got their paperwork in for the new joke, CAB, Combat Action Badge.

As contractors, we don't have brain-dead officers making up idiotic rules. We can carry our weapons "hot" anywhere on base. We are trusted not to shoot each other or have accidental discharges. We are treated like adults, can have a beer when we are off duty. We don't have laundry lists of SOPs written by clueless officer bureaucrats of what to do taped on the inside doors of our vehicles.

I could go on and on.

The lunacy I have seen here could fill volumes. I'm glad the perfumed princes and our politicians keep telling the folks the insurgency is waning. All I can say is, am I ever glad I am out of the U.S. Army!

Guest Contributor Frank Harris is employed as a civilian contractor in Iraq.
Please send Feedback comments to dwfeedback@yahoo.com

From www.sftt.org

[Aerosoul]

:( I was always afriad this may be the case...but it is all really true?

I'd like to hear from the BTDT's as well.

[Argyll]

Dunno about the bit being allowed to carry a "hot" weapon on base,the guys at Victory always made sure we were cleared before entering!!

He's right about some of his observations though,but I wouldn't dream of criticising the US military as openly as this.

The points about unloaded weapons being cleared before entering the PX doesn't make sense,but we do as we're told

Females and 249's.......not a good combo

However some very good truthfull observations there by a fustrated ex Door kicker

[MichaelF]

Hmmm,

Soldiers For The Truth? Fake article? No way........

[Aerosoul]

I didn't notice the source...anyone gimme some background on the .org?

[abncougar]

We don't have laundry lists of SOPs written by clueless officer bureaucrats of what to do taped on the inside doors of our vehicles.

if i did 13 yrs in SF, i wouldn't need this either. however, for some butter bar, its a different story.

[nerdman]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.

I am a soldier who graduated college and then enlisted in the Army. Had I known about the truck loads of BS I would have to endure, I never would have joined up. My only hope now is to get "selected" or drop an OCS packet, in that order.

Here is an example of some Army BS. It used to be that an 82nd trooper could roll up his sleeves during the warmer months of the year. Now that we have a new command, sleeve rolling has been deemed unprofessional. We must now suffer in the humid 105° heat for the sake of a professional appearance. Damn you 600-2.

I wanted to go 18x, but was told I couldn't because of my red/green color blindness. You know what the crazy thing is; red/green color blindness doesn't matter for SF once you are in the Army. More Army BS.

...but what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger.

[Marsuitor]

Can't comment if this is the case with the US army in Iraq, but if it is, it sure as hell isn't the only army where BS like this is going on...
Some of the stuff i saw in Afgh in relation to both my own army and the US army scared me quite a bit.

[Falco]

I thought women weren't allowed to have compat related MOSs.

[lunatic2T2]

I wanted to go 18x, but was told I couldn't because of my red/green color blindness. You know what the crazy thing is; red/green color blindness doesn't matter for SF once you are in the Army. More Army BS.

What if you are on a recce mission and there are two trucks. One green carring friendly forces, and one red carrying enemy personnel heading towards your position.

Which one would you call an airstrike on?

[nerdman]

I wanted to go 18x, but was told I couldn't because of my red/green color blindness. You know what the crazy thing is; red/green color blindness doesn't matter for SF once you are in the Army. More Army BS.

What if you are on a recce mission and there are two trucks. One green carring friendly forces, and one red carrying enemy personnel heading towards your position.

Which one would you call an airstrike on?
Red/green color blindness basically deals with differentiating shades. I see green and red, but I see the colors differently than you do.

BTW.. I recently took an Army physical for SF and passed the color vision portion. More Army BS.

[lunatic2T2]

Here's what some folks over at SOCNET are saying about it.

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=51065

[Marsuitor]

I wanted to go 18x, but was told I couldn't because of my red/green color blindness. You know what the crazy thing is; red/green color blindness doesn't matter for SF once you are in the Army. More Army BS.

What if you are on a recce mission and there are two trucks. One green carring friendly forces, and one red carrying enemy personnel heading towards your position.

Which one would you call an airstrike on?
Red/green blindness doesn't mean you don't see the colors at all, it means you can't seperate them if they're mixed together.

EDIT, argh someone beat me to it!

[Erik2a4]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.

I am a soldier who graduated college and then enlisted in the Army. Had I known about the truck loads of BS I would have to endure, I never would have joined up. My only hope now is to get "selected" or drop an OCS packet, in that order.

Here is an example of some Army BS. It used to be that an 82nd trooper could roll up his sleeves during the warmer months of the year. Now that we have a new command, sleeve rolling has been deemed unprofessional. We must now suffer in the humid 105° heat for the sake of a professional appearance. Damn you 600-2.

I wanted to go 18x, but was told I couldn't because of my red/green color blindness. You know what the crazy thing is; red/green color blindness doesn't matter for SF once you are in the Army. More Army BS.

...but what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger.

I hate to say it, but I agree with quite a bit of what the PMC said. However, realize there is a large difference between the "pogues", and the people on the line. However, he is on the money with stupid officers and idiot SGMs. They are paramount. Fortunately for the US Army, however, I have trained with enough of my fellow services, and international armies to note that this is not a peculiar American invention; the idiots with rank and prestige run amok in the world. In the civilian sector too, I might add. Anyone ever have a problem with your computer at work, and called up the IT guy, only to be treated like an idiot because you don't know how to do his job? Yup, that guy is in the Army too. And he's taking pictures of blown up crap just as the guy posted. :lol:

As for the 82nd, bud, rolling the sleeves on starched BDUs (in garrison, E of Gruber) was the only time it was allowed. And guess what: it was damn hotter with the sleeves rolled up, as no air (or blood) circulated through the BDU top (plus the wool beret doesn't help too much).

nerdman, I'm sorry about being turned down for SFAS, but there is a reason that color-blindness might turn you down: how do you see at night driving with NODs? Or using a CCO or ACOG? There is a reason for the physical standards, and while some of it may be crap, it is pertinent. Please do not take offense, none was intended, and thank you for your service.

To sum it up, I think the US Military spent too long not at war. There are too many leaders who think that counseling, awards, NCOERs, OERs, and pressed uniforms...not to mention short haircuts...and the way that the Army does business. However, there are leaders...young and old...who are adapting, overcoming, and replacing these idiotic ideas with a sensible approach to warfare. Exactly what is required.

[nerdman]

nerdman, I'm sorry about being turned down for SFAS, but there is a reason that color-blindness might turn you down: how do you see at night driving with NODs? Or using a CCO or ACOG? There is a reason for the physical standards, and while some of it may be crap, it is pertinent. Please do not take offense, none was intended, and thank you for your service.

Let me say again, the Army will let a red/green colorblind person go SF, once they are in the Army. This does not make sense.

As far a night driving goes, I do it all the time on night drop zone coverages… as a medic. Haven't hit anyone yet.

In regards to your CCO and ACOG question, I haven't fired a weapon with either. My unit only has a handful of CCOs, most of which are on our officers M4s (makes sense) and a handful of personnel on Alpha Echelon.

[MEGR]

Anyone ever have a problem with your computer at work, and called up the IT guy, only to be treated like an idiot because you don't know how to do his job?

http://www.stomps.org/Quizzes/Jimmy/burns.gif

[Erik2a4]

Can't comment if this is the case with the US army in Iraq, but if it is, it sure as hell isn't the only army where BS like this is going on...
Some of the stuff i saw in Afgh in relation to both my own army and the US army scared me quite a bit.

I should have paid closer attention to your post, Marcus. I agree...when I was with the Brits, I saw some incredibly good officers, NCOs and soliders...and I saw some "Ruperts", who were in the Horse Guards or whoever simply because it was the "thing" to do after Eton (or any public school), as well as NCOs who lived to torment soldiers. Same in the US Army. Same with the Poles, the Croats, the French, the Thais, etc.

The more things change, they more they stay the same. Remember the old adage:


"Out of every 100 men, ten shouldn't even be there,
Eighty are just targets,
Nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle.
Ah, but the one,
One is a warrior,
And he will bring the others back."
- Heraclitus
Include "women" in there, and it's just as timely today as ever.

Here's another well-used quote:


I'd like France to have two armies: one for display with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, fanfare, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or the Colonel's piles; an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage battledress, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to who all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the army in which I should like to fight.

The young enthusiasts are there...and they are not always young in age...but definitely in spirit and attitude. There are good people serving, and good leaders. But not all. This is the way it has always been, and proabably always will be.

[gaijinsamurai]

First of all, I must admit that my Army experience was limited to six months of active duty, while in a NG unit (light infantry) on deployment to Kuwait. I joined the NG after 6 years in the USMC and graduation from university and while in a law enforcement career.
What I saw of the Army made me want to get out. I believe the infantrymen and other combat arms soldiers are professionals who are in for the right reasons, and do their jobs honorably. However, the Army seems to be run by the ticket-punchers and office pogues, who would likely piss their pants if they ever came close to combat, and have no idea what it means to be a warrior.
One example: We were informed that if our assigned weapon was, for example, an M16A2, and if in a tactical/combat situation, the M60 or M249 gunner should become a casualty, we were PROHIBITED from operating the weapon, and would be court-martialled if we did so, no matter the reason! Their reasoning was that if we had not qualified on that particular weapon at a range within the previous 12 months, we were not considered capable of operating it, even if we had 10+ years of experience and knew the weapons inside and out. Can you imagine what a 19-year old E-2 must think, when tactically, he knows he should take over the heaviest weapon available to save the lives of his buddies and himself, but legally knows it may be the end of his short military career? As for myself, I would of course, say "screw the pogues" and do what makes sense, but that moment of indecision could be deadly.
All to often, the important decisions are made by people who can hardly call themselves soldiers, having no concept of what it means to fight and sacrifice.

[KB]

From the comments at Socnet it sounds like the author is a bit of a numbnuts

[nerdman]

As for the 82nd, bud, rolling the sleeves on starched BDUs (in garrison, E of Gruber) was the only time it was allowed. And guess what: it was damn hotter with the sleeves rolled up, as no air (or blood) circulated through the BDU top (plus the wool beret doesn't help too much).

I haven't been at Bragg long enough to have been able to roll up my sleeves, but I do not recall anyone in my unit (when speaking of the action) constraining the sleeve rolling to East of Gruber.

[nerdman]

Anyone ever have a problem with your computer at work, and called up the IT guy, only to be treated like an idiot because you don't know how to do his job?

http://www.stomps.org/Quizzes/Jimmy/burns.gif

I was thinking the same thing.

[nerdman]

From the comments at Socnet it sounds like the author is a bit of a numbnuts

I read those comments. Talks about him wearing an SS belt buckle.

[Erik2a4]

nerdman, I'm sorry about being turned down for SFAS, but there is a reason that color-blindness might turn you down: how do you see at night driving with NODs? Or using a CCO or ACOG? There is a reason for the physical standards, and while some of it may be crap, it is pertinent. Please do not take offense, none was intended, and thank you for your service.

Let me say again, the Army will let a red/green colorblind person go SF, once they are in the Army. This does not make sense.

As far a night driving goes, I do it all the time on night drop zone coverages… as a medic. Haven't hit anyone yet.

In regards to your CCO and ACOG question, I haven't fired a weapon with either. My unit only has a handful of CCOs, most of which are on our officers M4s (makes sense) and a handful of personnel on Alpha Echelon.

Then I apologize for my mistake. I had an incident with a driver who was green color-blind...I found this out while he was driving...at night...in Iraq. I wondered why he kept hitting things...

Alpha Echelon should have CCOs. Your O's...uh, probably should not.

[Erik2a4]

As for the 82nd, bud, rolling the sleeves on starched BDUs (in garrison, E of Gruber) was the only time it was allowed. And guess what: it was damn hotter with the sleeves rolled up, as no air (or blood) circulated through the BDU top (plus the wool beret doesn't help too much).

I haven't been at Bragg long enough to have been able to roll up my sleeves, but I do not recall anyone in my unit (when speaking of the action) constraining the sleeve rolling to East of Gruber.

It was almost universally hated. Here's why: you take a freshly starched pair of BDUs, then roll the sleeves up the ridiculous army way, completely destroying the press of the sleeves...and if your arms are average, or above average size, it won't fit. You have to jam this torniquet of sleeve up your arm, sometimes using a buddy to help. If you go to a range, or on detail, then you have to put them down...to come back to work, you have to rolled them up...back on detail, sleeves back down...etc...it was hell on joe. And pretty dumb overall. But then again, so is starching a combat uniform.
The 82nd got in trouble because higher had mandated that sleeves will be worn down...and they ignored it last year. Hence, no more sleeve rolling.

You could only have sleeves rolled up, E of Gruber, or in the NTAs. Just like you cannot wear a beret W of Gruber, you must wear cammie paint W of gruber, etc. Anytime you went into the field or on detail, the sleeves came down.

[Argyll]

From the comments at Socnet it sounds like the author is a bit of a numbnuts

It's irrespective if he was a **** or not,some of his observations are spot on,someone asked the BTDT's their opinions,and their opinions as well as mine from both ex Mil granted different Army,and PMC perspective,concur with some.....not all of his gripes!!!

[PrincessRAR]

Dunno about the bit being allowed to carry a "hot" weapon on base,the guys at Victory always made sure we were cleared before entering!!



yeah that smells, ive never heard of guys being allowed to enter "forts" with hot weapons..not only is it dangerous its stupid - there will alawys be men on the walls.

both timor and iraq we have had to clear weapons and becuase of numpties they now have to be cleared by you and your bum buddy

[PrincessRAR]

Here is an example of some Army BS. It used to be that an 82nd trooper could roll up his sleeves during the warmer months of the year. Now that we have a new command, sleeve rolling has been deemed unprofessional. We must now suffer in the humid 105° heat for the sake of a professional appearance. Damn you 600-2.



welcome to the rest of the world champ. Its been that way here for years and i can assure you it gets up around and above 40 in darwin ;)

if thats what you get bent out of shape over well then id be considering why you joined in the first place

[nerdman]

As for the 82nd, bud, rolling the sleeves on starched BDUs (in garrison, E of Gruber) was the only time it was allowed. And guess what: it was damn hotter with the sleeves rolled up, as no air (or blood) circulated through the BDU top (plus the wool beret doesn't help too much).

I haven't been at Bragg long enough to have been able to roll up my sleeves, but I do not recall anyone in my unit (when speaking of the action) constraining the sleeve rolling to East of Gruber.

It was almost universally hated. Here's why: you take a freshly starched pair of BDUs, then roll the sleeves up the ridiculous army way, completely destroying the press of the sleeves...and if your arms are average, or above average size, it won't fit. You have to jam this torniquet of sleeve up your arm, sometimes using a buddy to help. If you go to a range, or on detail, then you have to put them down...to come back to work, you have to rolled them up...back on detail, sleeves back down...etc...it was hell on joe. And pretty dumb overall. But then again, so is starching a combat uniform.
The 82nd got in trouble because higher had mandated that sleeves will be worn down...and they ignored it last year. Hence, no more sleeve rolling.

You could only have sleeves rolled up, E of Gruber, or in the NTAs. Just like you cannot wear a beret W of Gruber, you must wear cammie paint W of gruber, etc. Anytime you went into the field or on detail, the sleeves came down.

What you say does make sense. Having never been given the option, I do not know what it feels like.

Are you saying it would be better if Army personnel were able to roll their sleeves Marine style? Granted they were given the choice.

[Erik2a4]

First of all, I must admit that my Army experience was limited to six months of active duty, while in a NG unit (light infantry) on deployment to Kuwait. I joined the NG after 6 years in the USMC and graduation from university and while in a law enforcement career.
What I saw of the Army made me want to get out. I believe the infantrymen and other combat arms soldiers are professionals who are in for the right reasons, and do their jobs honorably. However, the Army seems to be run by the ticket-punchers and office pogues, who would likely piss their pants if they ever came close to combat, and have no idea what it means to be a warrior.
One example: We were informed that if our assigned weapon was, for example, an M16A2, and if in a tactical/combat situation, the M60 or M249 gunner should become a casualty, we were PROHIBITED from operating the weapon, and would be court-martialled if we did so, no matter the reason! Their reasoning was that if we had not qualified on that particular weapon at a range within the previous 12 months, we were not considered capable of operating it, even if we had 10+ years of experience and knew the weapons inside and out. Can you imagine what a 19-year old E-2 must think, when tactically, he knows he should take over the heaviest weapon available to save the lives of his buddies and himself, but legally knows it may be the end of his short military career? As for myself, I would of course, say "screw the pogues" and do what makes sense, but that moment of indecision could be deadly.
All to often, the important decisions are made by people who can hardly call themselves soldiers, having no concept of what it means to fight and sacrifice.

Again, that's what happens when there are no wars, no realism in training, no experience. That mandate was in place for peace-time training...a soldier cannot shoot a weapon unless he was currently qualified on it. But, LTC and CSM decide that their career is more important, so they decide to extend it to include a combat zone.

I had a similiar experience with a ridiculous CSM. He attempted to make leaders fill out a Risk Assessment before leaving the wire. We turned one in that simply said:


Risk = Very High,
Mitigating Factors=not getting killed,
Overall Risk= Very High...no ****, we're in Iraq.

I was personally chewed out by a Bde Commander for not wearing my seatbelt. When I pointed out that 1) a soldier had drowned a week ago in a canal rollover, and 2) the seatbelt would not fit over my equipment (literally, I couldn't get it around me) he became very angry. But there's nothing he could do, since he didn't exactly wear the same equipment, nor did he have any seatbelt extentions.

Yup, there are some tards, but again, there are some shining stars as well.

[nerdman]

Here is an example of some Army BS. It used to be that an 82nd trooper could roll up his sleeves during the warmer months of the year. Now that we have a new command, sleeve rolling has been deemed unprofessional. We must now suffer in the humid 105° heat for the sake of a professional appearance. Damn you 600-2.



welcome to the rest of the world champ. Its been that way here for years and i can assure you it gets up around and above 40 in darwin ;)

if thats what you get bent out of shape over well then id be considering why you joined in the first place

It's just "an" example of many things that make me roll my eyes. And as I said in my orignal comment, I am considering why I "joined in the first place."

[Erik2a4]

As for the 82nd, bud, rolling the sleeves on starched BDUs (in garrison, E of Gruber) was the only time it was allowed. And guess what: it was damn hotter with the sleeves rolled up, as no air (or blood) circulated through the BDU top (plus the wool beret doesn't help too much).

I haven't been at Bragg long enough to have been able to roll up my sleeves, but I do not recall anyone in my unit (when speaking of the action) constraining the sleeve rolling to East of Gruber.

It was almost universally hated. Here's why: you take a freshly starched pair of BDUs, then roll the sleeves up the ridiculous army way, completely destroying the press of the sleeves...and if your arms are average, or above average size, it won't fit. You have to jam this torniquet of sleeve up your arm, sometimes using a buddy to help. If you go to a range, or on detail, then you have to put them down...to come back to work, you have to rolled them up...back on detail, sleeves back down...etc...it was hell on joe. And pretty dumb overall. But then again, so is starching a combat uniform.
The 82nd got in trouble because higher had mandated that sleeves will be worn down...and they ignored it last year. Hence, no more sleeve rolling.

You could only have sleeves rolled up, E of Gruber, or in the NTAs. Just like you cannot wear a beret W of Gruber, you must wear cammie paint W of gruber, etc. Anytime you went into the field or on detail, the sleeves came down.

What you say does make sense. Having never been given the option, I do not know what it feels like.

Are you saying it would be better if Army personnel were able to roll their sleeves Marine style? Granted they were given the choice.

Nope. Do what 90% of the soldiers I worked with do while patrolling with IBA, ACH, and full battle rattle...flip the sleeve up once or twice just above the wrist. You're going to sweat your ass off in IBA no matter what, but at least you get protection from the dust, mud, etc, while allowing air up your sleeves.

As for in garrison? Leave sleeves down. Or roll them up like any shirt. Really doesn't matter to me. A combat uniform should be meant for combat...not for spits and starches. I'm more concerned about training and warfighting than looking good.

I can tell you that fluff and buff with sleeves down and PC retains far less heat than spits and starchies with sleeves up and beret.

[Erik2a4]

Here is an example of some Army BS. It used to be that an 82nd trooper could roll up his sleeves during the warmer months of the year. Now that we have a new command, sleeve rolling has been deemed unprofessional. We must now suffer in the humid 105° heat for the sake of a professional appearance. Damn you 600-2.



welcome to the rest of the world champ. Its been that way here for years and i can assure you it gets up around and above 40 in darwin ;)

if thats what you get bent out of shape over well then id be considering why you joined in the first place

It's just "an" example of many things that make me roll my eyes. And as I said in my orignal comment, I am considering why I "joined in the first place."

But if you stick to your goal, you won't let the crap like that keep you from it.

[nerdman]

As for the 82nd, bud, rolling the sleeves on starched BDUs (in garrison, E of Gruber) was the only time it was allowed. And guess what: it was damn hotter with the sleeves rolled up, as no air (or blood) circulated through the BDU top (plus the wool beret doesn't help too much).

I haven't been at Bragg long enough to have been able to roll up my sleeves, but I do not recall anyone in my unit (when speaking of the action) constraining the sleeve rolling to East of Gruber.

It was almost universally hated. Here's why: you take a freshly starched pair of BDUs, then roll the sleeves up the ridiculous army way, completely destroying the press of the sleeves...and if your arms are average, or above average size, it won't fit. You have to jam this torniquet of sleeve up your arm, sometimes using a buddy to help. If you go to a range, or on detail, then you have to put them down...to come back to work, you have to rolled them up...back on detail, sleeves back down...etc...it was hell on joe. And pretty dumb overall. But then again, so is starching a combat uniform.
The 82nd got in trouble because higher had mandated that sleeves will be worn down...and they ignored it last year. Hence, no more sleeve rolling.

You could only have sleeves rolled up, E of Gruber, or in the NTAs. Just like you cannot wear a beret W of Gruber, you must wear cammie paint W of gruber, etc. Anytime you went into the field or on detail, the sleeves came down.

What you say does make sense. Having never been given the option, I do not know what it feels like.

Are you saying it would be better if Army personnel were able to roll their sleeves Marine style? Granted they were given the choice.

Nope. Do what 90% of the soldiers I worked with do while patrolling with IBA, ACH, and full battle rattle...flip the sleeve up once or twice just above the wrist. You're going to sweat your ass off in IBA no matter what, but at least you get protection from the dust, mud, etc, while allowing air up your sleeves.

As for in garrison? Leave sleeves down. Or roll them up like any shirt. Really doesn't matter to me. A combat uniform should be meant for combat...not for spits and starches. I'm more concerned about training and warfighting than looking good.

I can tell you that fluff and buff with sleeves down and PC retains far less heat than spits and starchies with sleeves up and beret.

The single or double flip does work nicely.

[nerdman]

Here is an example of some Army BS. It used to be that an 82nd trooper could roll up his sleeves during the warmer months of the year. Now that we have a new command, sleeve rolling has been deemed unprofessional. We must now suffer in the humid 105° heat for the sake of a professional appearance. Damn you 600-2.



welcome to the rest of the world champ. Its been that way here for years and i can assure you it gets up around and above 40 in darwin ;)

if thats what you get bent out of shape over well then id be considering why you joined in the first place

It's just "an" example of many things that make me roll my eyes. And as I said in my orignal comment, I am considering why I "joined in the first place."

But if you stick to your goal, you won't let the crap like that keep you from it.

I won't and thank you for the support.

[PrincessRAR]

its so petty champ - and please dont take what im about to say as offensive becuase it applies to more then you and has applied ot me in my career - get an attitude change, if you keep going the way you are your likely to do something stupid or breakdown, ive seen it happen to my men..

[Erik2a4]

its so petty champ - and please dont take what im about to say as offensive becuase it applies to more then you and has applied ot me in my career - get an attitude change, if you keep going the way you are your likely to do something stupid or breakdown, ive seen it happen to my men..

Right, but remember that what was stupid when you were a private is probably still stupid when you're a crusty Warrant, or Colonel, or whatever...and do something about it!

That's the key. ;)

[nerdman]

its so petty champ - and please dont take what im about to say as offensive becuase it applies to more then you and has applied ot me in my career - get an attitude change, if you keep going the way you are your likely to do something stupid or breakdown, ive seen it happen to my men..


Do not worry about the breakdown. Just a soldier gripping, like all soldiers have griped throughout military history. A good portion of Saving Private Ryan was dedicated to gripes. Granted theirs were quite a bit more severe than mine, but none the less.

I've always said... everyone's favorite off work/duty pass time is complaining about their job. Go to any bar/pub in the world and I bet a good portion of the patrons, be they civilian or military, will be complaining about their bosses, coworkers, rules/regs, etc. I'm sure a good portion will be trying to get laid as well, but that is another story.

Anyways, everyone needs to vent. I need to get out of my support unit and into a line unit.

[Hawaii_Light]

I did 20 years in the shameful disaster called the U.S. Army, retiring last year as soon as I was eligible. I did seven years in the regular Army, then did 13 years as an 18B/D, Special Forces Weapons, then as a medical sergeant. I had once loved the Army, but the Army turned into a welfare system for the dregs of American society. I see the Army over here In Iraq and I want to vomit.


i don't have any expierence with the army, but I am a contractor for the Navy (Logistics) (I just got the job two weeks ago). So far I have come across both the well motivated and respected personnel, along with the partially retarded. Serouisly, some of these dudes are mentally challenged and lack common sense.

One day walking home from the base this sailor is sitting on the curb outside the base taking of his roller blades, im walking past minding my own businuess and he just starts saying "they don't let you roller blade on base ya know, so i got to take them of befor i can rollerblade on base" in one of those mentally challenged voices, I just look at him and say thats to bad dude. :roll:

another time i had boarded the Fort McHenry, and we were doing logistical supply, and this sailor is handing me some boxes to inspect, but he lacks the commen sense to actually put them in my hands (this **** was heavy, he had a hard time picking it up) but he was just chucking them at my arms. ****ing pissed me off, anyways he had one of those problems were he thought he was cool, and he was allways relaying orders even if the other people were two feet away from the commander. :roll:

[ibstolidude]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.
I would nto go that far - I'll bet 10 -to 1 that most here with experience will agree.

SOPs,IADs v/s ARs = very different.

[nerdman]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.
I would nto go that far - I'll bet 10 -to 1 that most here with experience will agree.

SOPs,IADs v/s ARs = very different.

Depends on the SOP. My problem rests with the over use of SOPs, especially when they pertain to my personal life. For example, every time we have a weekend over two days my NCO has make sure my car works and I have insurance… complements of 82nd ABN DIV SOP.

The Army treats "Joes" like children. Treating soldiers like children makes soldiers act like children. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When there are rules for everything you start expecting the Army to think for you.

P.S. When you speak of ARs, my guess is you are referring to AR 670-1.

[Russ.Dill]

I wanted to go 18x, but was told I couldn't because of my red/green color blindness. You know what the crazy thing is; red/green color blindness doesn't matter for SF once you are in the Army. More Army BS.

What if you are on a recce mission and there are two trucks. One green carring friendly forces, and one red carrying enemy personnel heading towards your position.

Which one would you call an airstrike on?

I think thats why FBCB2 uses red and blue.

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

One example: We were informed that if our assigned weapon was, for example, an M16A2, and if in a tactical/combat situation, the M60 or M249 gunner should become a casualty, we were PROHIBITED from operating the weapon, and would be court-martialled if we did so, no matter the reason! Their reasoning was that if we had not qualified on that particular weapon at a range within the previous 12 months, we were not considered capable of operating it, even if we had 10+ years of experience and knew the weapons inside and out. Can you imagine what a 19-year old E-2 must think, when tactically, he knows he should take over the heaviest weapon available to save the lives of his buddies and himself, but legally knows it may be the end of his short military career? As for myself, I would of course, say "screw the pogues" and do what makes sense, but that moment of indecision could be deadly.


Is this true? Does a written version of this directive exist somewhere? Is there anyone else here who can confirm this? I'm not doubting the credentials of the poster, but I like to have more than one witness for extraordinary statements.

Also, what is a "Maternity uniform"?

[PrincessRAR]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.
I would nto go that far - I'll bet 10 -to 1 that most here with experience will agree.

SOPs,IADs v/s ARs = very different.

yep certainly need them, or every **** goes and does his own thing - not what you want...

your a digger you get told what to do - thats life...otherwise become an O rofl

[nerdman]

I wanted to go 18x, but was told I couldn't because of my red/green color blindness. You know what the crazy thing is; red/green color blindness doesn't matter for SF once you are in the Army. More Army BS.

What if you are on a recce mission and there are two trucks. One green carring friendly forces, and one red carrying enemy personnel heading towards your position.

Which one would you call an airstrike on?

I think thats why FBCB2 uses red and blue.

Good old Blue-force Tracker... Good for obstructing my view of the passenger side review mirror.

[nerdman]

Also, what is a "Maternity uniform"?

BDU blouse has tabs on the sides that allow for expansion or contraction of the uniform (much like the old BDU blouses) and no breast pockets. Chafes the sensitive nipples I imagine. BDU trousers have an elastic waist band.

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

I'm not sure I understand, do you mean that uniforms worn with the tabs extended are "Maternity uniforms". or that there is a special version?

Forgive my ignornace, but not being in the US army I have no detailed knowledge of the nuances of your uniforms. :)

[szr]

Maternity uniforms are for pregnant women.

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

Maternity uniforms are for pregnant women.

No ****. Really? I thought they were uniforms for Materns, which are like interns, but fatter? :bash:

[szr]

Well now that we've established that you know what maternity means; they're special uniforms. Normal uniforms lack "maternity" features. ;)

[Creeper]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.
I would nto go that far - I'll bet 10 -to 1 that most here with experience will agree.

SOPs,IADs v/s ARs = very different.

yep certainly need them, or every **** goes and does his own thing - not what you want...

your a digger you get told what to do - thats life...otherwise become an O rofl
There was a **** on the firing line, we went cold, everyone laid our weapons down to do admin, one **** failed to follow an friggen order-SOP , call it what you may, decided to clear his weapon by moving his forefinger over his trigger- the fukcing **** had his AD. He failed on 2 counts, you heard one what was the other?
Yes, IMHO: SOPs/IADs are diffrent than ARs. 1st line vrs rear line. (Generally). Like the fellow Aussie said.
BTW, the f/u **** was sent to the sand box, saw a pic of him handling a -60!

[oregongrunt]

He has a lot of very good points.

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

Well now that we've established that you know what maternity means; they're special uniforms. Normal uniforms lack "maternity" features.

Ahh ok. Thanks. :)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The article is typical griping from somebody involved with the military. You can find letters home, articles, short stories, novels, and movies about the same "idiot Army" going back to 1776. And then before that under another flag - nothing new. Everybody's boss is an incompetent ****. He does point out some new lunacy having to do with females being given tasks they are apparently not able to do...but these are political times & I wouldn't know how to snap an entire society back to reality.

[Creeper]

The article is typical griping from somebody involved with the military. You can find letters home, articles, short stories, novels, and movies about the same "idiot Army" going back to 1776. And then before that under another flag - nothing new. Everybody's boss is an incompetent ****. He does point out some new lunacy having to do with females being given tasks they are apparently not able to do...but these are political times & I wouldn't know how to snap an entire society back to reality.
Refering to you not knowing how to snap an entire society back to reality-perhaps as this culture becomes more soft (cs),let this war linger a few more years- it is that simple.

[LazerLordz]

As for the 82nd, bud, rolling the sleeves on starched BDUs (in garrison, E of Gruber) was the only time it was allowed. And guess what: it was damn hotter with the sleeves rolled up, as no air (or blood) circulated through the BDU top (plus the wool beret doesn't help too much).

I haven't been at Bragg long enough to have been able to roll up my sleeves, but I do not recall anyone in my unit (when speaking of the action) constraining the sleeve rolling to East of Gruber.

It was almost universally hated. Here's why: you take a freshly starched pair of BDUs, then roll the sleeves up the ridiculous army way, completely destroying the press of the sleeves...and if your arms are average, or above average size, it won't fit. You have to jam this torniquet of sleeve up your arm, sometimes using a buddy to help. If you go to a range, or on detail, then you have to put them down...to come back to work, you have to rolled them up...back on detail, sleeves back down...etc...it was hell on joe. And pretty dumb overall. But then again, so is starching a combat uniform.
The 82nd got in trouble because higher had mandated that sleeves will be worn down...and they ignored it last year. Hence, no more sleeve rolling.

You could only have sleeves rolled up, E of Gruber, or in the NTAs. Just like you cannot wear a beret W of Gruber, you must wear cammie paint W of gruber, etc. Anytime you went into the field or on detail, the sleeves came down.

We never have to starch our BDUs in the Singapore Army, especially if we are not on parade.It's common sense that in daily exercise and training, you need to have a supple pair of BDUs to move around comfortably and acheive the physical flexibility needed to do your job.

We roll down our sleeves for regimental duty or outfield deployments and we change back to a fresh pair with rolled up sleeves on base, but it need not be starched.Just neat and uncrumpled.

So to hear that the 82nd has to starch their BDUs in combat is one helluva eyeopener. :roll:

[dacanadianbomb]

lol reading interesting stuff on another forum from people who have worked with the author.
Sounds like a interesting character, favours fashionable SS belts and has a SS skull tattoed on his arm.

[PrincessRAR]

yeah he is obviously abit bitter, but he doesnt raise all bad points...theres something there for everyone i think.

[dacanadianbomb]

10% rule applies to all walks of life.


He is just generalising-> about support people and officers.

[nerdman]

So to hear that the 82nd has to starch their BDUs in combat is one helluva eyeopener. :roll:

No, no, no. I've never heard of anyone in the 82nd starching thier uniforms in Iraq or A-stan. Guys I've talk to said they were lucky to get showers.

If you look at the photos on this website pretty much the only guys who have starched uniforms on deployments are Generals.

[panzerjager]

Yep, the U.S. Army is full of fat, lame pussies would are afraid of their own shadow. :roll:

I guess this guy never figured out that the U.S. Army has a massive non-combat tail staffed with less than rambo-like men and oh gasp??? women!

This article sounds like sour grapes because the author wasn't treated as a living, breathing demi-god, even if he made some accurate observations.

[Erik2a4]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.
I would nto go that far - I'll bet 10 -to 1 that most here with experience will agree.

SOPs,IADs v/s ARs = very different.

SOPs and contingency plan rehearsals are the most important part of any plan. This becomes especially apparent when the plan consists of "Friendlies have been hit, we're moving to them in five" type QRF missions.

An SOP is the way a unit fights. An AR is the way the Army wants to conduct business, whether it be war, CAS, uniforms, or treating a sick camel. Stoli is right...there is a big difference.

[Erik2a4]

Amen brother. SOPs can kiss my ass.
I would nto go that far - I'll bet 10 -to 1 that most here with experience will agree.

SOPs,IADs v/s ARs = very different.

Depends on the SOP. My problem rests with the over use of SOPs, especially when they pertain to my personal life. For example, every time we have a weekend over two days my NCO has make sure my car works and I have insurance… complements of 82nd ABN DIV SOP.

The Army treats "Joes" like children. Treating soldiers like children makes soldiers act like children. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. When there are rules for everything you start expecting the Army to think for you.

P.S. When you speak of ARs, my guess is you are referring to AR 670-1.

You're confusing what a Standard Operating Procedure really is. Why do you think that your NCO has to check your vehicle? Because somewhere and sometime, a soldier drove without insurance, got into a car wreck, and died, or killed someone. His parents raised holy hell because their little boy or girl is now dead, and why didn't the Army do something about it? So their Congressman intervenes and...since all members of Congress have a right to a Congressional investigation of the military...he wants to know why his constituent's have lost their boy or girl. Why are there not procedures in place to prevent this sort of thing? The CoC goes, "Roger Sir, we'll do something about it."

Fastforward...and you know have your vehicle inspected. It's a reflection of society. Just as the military is, to a certain degree.

The ASOP, RSOP, DIV Policy, 600-2, and whatever else is the way a unit conducts it's daily business. The SOPs that Stoli, I, Digrar, and others are referring to is about combat SOPs...what you do in a combat zone. They have to be understood becuase there will not always be the chance to cover everything before...or during...a mission. PL calls a halt...you need to know which way to stop and pull security, without having to wait around for your NCO to move to you. You enter a near-ambush? You need to know when, where, and how you will get out of the kill zone, reorganize, and CATK. 240B needs more ammo? You need to know where it is stored, who is carrying it, how to prepare it, etc.

Everyone needs to know these. Who is in charge if the PL gets hit? The RTO...generally a private or specialist...until the PSG can get to a radio. Who calls for fire? The guy with eyes on...who may or may not be a leader...maybe just a joe.

There is a reason for many things. Some of the garrison stuff is stupid. But focus on the important things. The stuff that saves lives downrange.

[szr]

I think I see that camel's NINJA tab.

[nerdman]

You're confusing what a Standard Operating Procedure really is. Why do you think that your NCO has to check your vehicle? Because somewhere and sometime, a soldier drove without insurance, got into a car wreck, and died, or killed someone. His parents raised holy hell because their little boy or girl is now dead, and why didn't the Army do something about it? So their Congressman intervenes and...since all members of Congress have a right to a Congressional investigation of the military...he wants to know why his constituent's have lost their boy or girl. Why are there not procedures in place to prevent this sort of thing? The CoC goes, "Roger Sir, we'll do something about it."

Fastforward...and you know have your vehicle inspected. It's a reflection of society. Just as the military is, to a certain degree.

I have to disagree with you about the "reflection of society” thing. If an 18 year old moves away from his parents and goes to work for say... K-Mart and then while off work drives without insurance, gets into a car wreck, dies, and/or kills someone. The parents don't sue K-Mart. Parents contact their governmental representative because they know the Army controls and watches out for their child. They expect this of the Army. They are letting the Army do their parenting.

In the end it is a game of numbers, not a reflection of society. The Army is simply protecting its assets.



The ASOP, RSOP, DIV Policy, 600-2, and whatever else is the way a unit conducts it's daily business. The SOPs that Stoli, I, Digrar, and others are referring to is about combat SOPs...what you do in a combat zone. They have to be understood becuase there will not always be the chance to cover everything before...or during...a mission. PL calls a halt...you need to know which way to stop and pull security, without having to wait around for your NCO to move to you. You enter a near-ambush? You need to know when, where, and how you will get out of the kill zone, reorganize, and CATK. 240B needs more ammo? You need to know where it is stored, who is carrying it, how to prepare it, etc.

Everyone needs to know these. Who is in charge if the PL gets hit? The RTO...generally a private or specialist...until the PSG can get to a radio. Who calls for fire? The guy with eyes on...who may or may not be a leader...maybe just a joe.

There is a reason for many things. Some of the garrison stuff is stupid. But focus on the important things. The stuff that saves lives downrange.

I think you are taking my "SOPs can kiss my ass" comment too literally. It was an off the cuff, generalized remark about the mindless automaton "SOP culture" of the military. A culture that despises asking questions and creative thinkers. An “I'm right, because the Reg. and my rank say I'm right” culture. It is obvious why SOPs exist. The name in and of itself is self explanatory. Standard Operating Procedures - When I'm in this situation I do this. I do believe it saves lives.

I am in no way touting the elimination of SOPs. My beef is with SOPs that address finite unimportant things, like a Battalion SOP that says my Camelbak can only be black or green, not desert tan. This does nothing to save me in battle.

I just believe the Army is too quick to constrain situations with SOPs.