To The Poles On This Forum...

[Durandal]

For our Polish Friends here on Militaryphotos.net

I like Ralph Peters and I hope you guys like the op ed piece that appeared in the New York Post.

Cheers!


December 22, 2003 -- THE decisive turning point in the West's long struggle against Islamic conquerors came on the afternoon of Sept. 12, 1683, during the last Turkish siege of Vienna. Severely outnumbered Polish hussars - the finest cavalry Europe ever produced - charged into the massed Ottoman ranks with lowered lances and a wild battle cry.

Led by the valiant King Jan Sobieski, the Poles had marched to save Vienna while other Europeans looked away. The French - surprise! - had cut a deal with the sultan. (To Louis XIV, humbling the rival Habsburgs trumped the fate of Western civilization.)

The odds were grim. Many of King Jan's nobles feared disaster. But Sobieski risked his kingdom - actually a rough-and-tumble democracy - to save a continent.

On that fateful afternoon, the Polish cavalry struck the Turkish lines with such force that 2,000 lances shattered. The charge stunned the Ottoman army. A hundred thousand Turks ran for the Danube.

No army from the Islamic world ever posed such a threat to the West again.

Poland's thanks for its courage? In the next century, the country was sliced up like a pie by the ungrateful Habsburgs, along with the Romanovs of Russia and the Prussian Hohenzollerns. It was the most cynical action in European history until the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which divided Poland again in 1939.

But the Poles never gave up their belief in their country - or in freedom. During our own revolution, our first allies were Polish freedom fighters such as Casimir Pulaski and Tadeusz Kosciusko. (Paris only joined the fight when it looked like we might win. And France intervened to spite Britain, not to help us.)

Throughout the 19th century, Poles fought for freedom wherever the struggle raged, in Latin America, Greece and Italy, and on the Union side in our Civil War. Although their country had been raped by the great powers of Europe, Poles kept her cause alive.

Again and again, Poles rose against their occupiers, only to be savagely put down, with their finest young men slaughtered or marched to Siberian prisons. Then, at the end of the Great War, Poland suddenly reappeared on the maps.

What did the Poles do? They immediately saved Western civilization yet again. In the now-forgotten "Miracle on the Vistula," a patched-together Polish army turned back the Red hordes headed for Berlin. One of history's most brilliant campaigns, it saved defeated Germany from a communist takeover.

Poland's thanks? The slaughter of World War II. Then the Soviet occupation.

But the Poles never gave up. Their language, their faith - and their martial traditions - were maintained with rigor and pride. Of all the countries that gained their freedom as the Soviet Union collapsed, none had struggled for liberty as relentlessly as Poland.

Now the Poles are defending freedom again. In Iraq. While the establishment media agonize over the fickle moods of Paris and Berlin, there's little mention in the press of the superb contribution made by our Polish allies - at great cost to their own country.

In the words of an American officer who works closely with them, "Poland has taken to the Iraq mission for idealistic and principled purposes: Its leadership and military truly believe that freedom and justice are universal values worth fighting for."

To how many other nations would those words apply?

Poland has deployed 2,500 of its best soldiers to Iraq. It sent $64 million worth of its newest equipment - which operations in Iraq will ruin. Warsaw selected its finest officers to command and staff the Multinational Division Center South. A Polish major general commands a total of 12,000 troops from 22 nations with responsibility for a sector previously held by twice as many U.S. Marines. The Polish performance has been flawless.

Their reward? Surely America must recognize such a great contribution from an economically struggling ally - at a time when Polish troops also support peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan and the Balkans?

Sorry. Turkey, which stabbed us as deeply in the back as it could on the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom, will receive a minimum of $2 billion from Washington - and the same elements in the Rumsfeld cabal who failed to plan for the occupation of Iraq hope to increase our aid to Ankara to $5 billion.

Pakistan, which refuses to press home the fight against al Qaeda, will get billions from Washington. The repressive Egyptian regime will get a few billion, too, as it does every year. Even Yemen will get a welfare check from Uncle Sugar.

And Poland? Like the Czech Republic, which sent a few medics to the Persian Gulf then withdrew them in panic, Poland will get a standard package of $12 million for NATO-related programs. Other than some logistical support in Iraq, that's it. Strategic peanuts for our most enthusiastic ally on the European continent.

Poland did have one request - a humble one, in the great scheme of things. Warsaw asked for $47 million to modernize six used, American-built C-130 transport aircraft and to purchase American-built HMMWV all-terrain vehicles so elite Polish units could better integrate operations with American forces. Much of the money would go right back to U.S. factories and workers.

Our response? We stiffed them.

For once, the Pentagon and the State Department agree: No can do. Impossible. Our pocket are empty. Got to FedEx every penny to our favorite dictators.

It's a mistake to over-idealize any nation. But if there's a land of heroes anywhere between the English Channel and the coast of California, it's Poland. Our Polish allies have taken a brave, costly, principled stand for freedom and democracy in Iraq. They desperately want to be seen by Washington as reliable friends in this treacherous world.

The least we could do is to treat them with respect.

Ralph Peters is a retired Army officer and the author of "Beyond Baghdad."

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/14094.htm

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Excellent article, the Poles are truely a great people and an awesome ally, I just wish that we were the same back to them. As well with the foreign aid and turn downs for military equipment, I've also heard about more disturbing things regarding travelling passports to the US and other priveledges. But I am sure that in the long run Poland like many other of our true friends will reak the benefits of being an American ally.

[usa320]

Poles are great allies.

woot

[Vance]

Poles are great allies.

woot
I walked into one once. It hurt. :(

[papasmerf]

Thanks guys p-)

[papasmerf]

Poles are great allies.

woot
I walked into one once. It hurt. :(

lol What happened?

[Herrmannek]

Poles are great allies.

woot
I walked into one once. It hurt. :(

Me too :)

[Groove]

Great article. But dont forget there are elections soon in the USA. And there will be many such articles about all the nations which have a great number of immigrants in the usa.

Greetings

Groove

[fantassin]

The French - surprise! - had cut a deal with the sultan. (To Louis XIV, humbling the rival Habsburgs trumped the fate of Western civilization.)


Normal, unbiased and oh so well informed Washington Post reporting. I am surprised it doesn't mention horse meat, hairy armpits, snails, frogs legs...


France supported Poland very early on, from the end of the 18th Century, hence a massive presence of Polish soldiers in Napoléon's army. In 1919-1922, France send troops and advisors (among which then Capt de Gaulle, futur French president) to Poland to help them crush the Bolshevick troops.

In 1940, it helped recreate "Free Polish" units in France before the country was invaded.

Always keep in mind that a pat on the back from a "big brother" is dangerous; then you get taken for granted and before you realize you have lost all independance.

To the Poles on the Forum: Poland is in EUROPE and the USA are in NORTH AMERICA.

For those with a short memory span:

On January 17, 1945, the Red Army "liberated" Warsaw. Two days later, pro-communist government established by Stalin, assumed control over "free" Poland. On February 15, the last Allies Conference in Yalta took place. Stalin achieved all he wanted, and perhaps, to appease the guilty conscience" of his partners in connection with Poland, relented to let the communist government of Poland play democracy "the British sty1e" until its boys, the last Polish soldiers, airmen and sailors in West return home.
On July 5th, Great Britain and USA recognized the communist regime in Poland
Just a reminder.

[Groove]

They could stop this "France sux" thingie. Its boring....

Groove

[Whistler]

Good article Durandal.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

fantassin may have struck a point here, before Hitler's invasion of Poland the Polish intelligence agency and code breaking group Section BS4 had a better working relationship with French intelligence than any other agency in the west, in fact if it was not for a French intelligence group led by Captain Gustave Bertrand and Section BS4, Alan Turing would probably never have built the Bombe and the allies would not had been as well informed about U-boat movements in the Atlantic. It was Bertrands group of agents that handled the walk in of Reichewehr official Hans Thilo Schmidt who for a sum of money handed over plans, instruction manuals and the daily keys for the Enigma machine for September and October 1932 this info was handed to Section BS4 who had built a bombe (Enigma copy) to crack the Enigma ciphers.
When it looked like Poland was about to fall to Hitler the Poles gave everything they had on Enigma to the French and British including several Bombes, some of the top code breakers of BS4 fled to Romania where they attempted to gain entry to the US and Britain only to be refused, France however did not and many members of Polish intelligence and Section BS4 ended up working with the French and later the Free French. As a matter of interest the Poles did crack the Enigma cipher before anyone else one such message was on 30/06/1934 it was "an alle flugplatze ernst roehm abliefern tot oder lebend" (to all airports ernst roehm to be delivered dead or alive).

[Durandal]

I love it when you think Britain and France REALLY helped Poland out.

B.S. Poland got hosed.

Then they got screwed again during the Warsaw uprising...by ALL the Allies.

[Kitsune]

As for ENIGMA...to crack it once was not enough. Enigma was upgraded many times. Even the capture of one machine by the British in 1940 was not the end of the story: For a while the British could read the German messages and steer the convoys to safety. But in spring of 1941 the Germans added an additional roller to Enigma and added a new cypher named "Triton". Result: British Intelligence could not read the German transmissions for minths...and even worse: during this time German intelligence cracked the British convoy transmission cyphers. So the British were blind but the Germans read 80 % of their transmissions to the convoys...with the result of all time high of freighters sunk by German submarines during summer of 1941.

"Codebreaking" is an ongoing process. The Polish contributions may have been important but should not be overestimated.


To this Polish Husar thing: I think it is a bit ridiculous to start an article like this. Wether the Polish really saved Europe on that day is another matter (the moors in Spain for example brought a lot of culture to Europe, some of their buildings are among the most beautiful in Europe. Even a turkish conquest of Vienna would have hardly been the end of Europe. Besides, the assessment of this battle as "THE decisive turning point in the West's long struggle against Islamic conquerors" is plainly wrong. The turks had already passed the apex of their power. Better take their defeat in the sea battle of Lepanto in 1571 as this turning point...but of course there were no Poles in that one). What is important is that it happened in 1683...a damn long time ago. Nearly a hundred years before American independence. It has nothing to do with Polish doings of today, including their participation in OIF.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I love it when you think Britain and France REALLY helped Poland out.
Durandal could you point to the part in my post where I state that Britain REALLY helped Poland out, I myself have a little trouble finding it, as for France I only stated that French intelligence had a good working relationship with Polish intelligence and sheltered many after Poland was invaded nothing more.


B.S. Poland got hosed.
Has anyone here stated to the contrary?

[WARPIG]

As for ENIGMA...to crack it once was not enough. Enigma was upgraded many times. Even the capture of one machine by the British in 1940 was not the end of the story: For a while the British could read the German messages and steer the convoys to safety. But in spring of 1941 the Germans added an additional roller to Enigma and added a new cypher named "Triton". Result: British Intelligence could not read the German transmissions for minths...and even worse: during this time German intelligence cracked the British convoy transmission cyphers. So the British were blind but the Germans read 80 % of their transmissions to the convoys...with the result of all time high of freighters sunk by German submarines during summer of 1941.

"Codebreaking" is an ongoing process. The Polish contributions may have been important but should not be overestimated.


To this Polish Husar thing: I think it is a bit ridiculous to start an article like this. No more ridiculous than your comment. Wether the Polish really saved Europe on that day is another matter (the moors in Spain for example brought a lot of culture to Europe, some of their buildings are among the most beautiful in Europe. Even a turkish conquest of Vienna would have hardly been the end of Europe. Besides, the assessment of this battle as "THE decisive turning point in the West's long struggle against Islamic conquerors" is plainly wrong. The turks had already passed the apex of their power. Better take their defeat in the sea battle of Lepanto in 1576 as this turning point...but of course there were no Poles in that one). What is important is that it happened in 1683...a damn long time ago. Nearly a hundred years before American independence. It has nothing to do with Polish doings of today, including their participation in OIF. Wrong.. it has everything to do with Poles of today.
Europeans are especially tied to their past. Just like the social climate of the French, German, and English, the Poles have a deep history that is an integral part of their social and political personality today. America is not just young in comparison to the Europeans but have been fighting to shed it's European lineage since the beginning.
Poles have been a tough, straight forward, unwavering presence in Europe for centuries. If I read this right... this post is meant to recognize that. Mentioning the thankless sacrifice, the moral courage, and military toughness of the Polish nation, past and present, is exactly what this forum is about.
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)The article may be a little biased but the picture it paints of the Polish people and the message it represents is accurate. We owe the Poles much more than they are getting, more than they have asked for, and more than they will ever get.
Good post Durandal.

[Uncle Chô]

Great article. But dont forget there are elections soon in the USA. And there will be many such articles about all the nations which have a great number of immigrants in the usa.
I agree.

Following several recent topics, I am still wondering about the reason of this recent American "sympathy" for Poland. Speaking about the so-called " young Europe" I do not see why the Poles are any better than the Czech or the Hungarians from a US point of view. Because they sent GROM troops in Haïti to support the US Forces as early as 1994 ?

"Don't stick to Europe, we are better to help you "

I disagree with the American way to strongly oppose Poland to the rest of Europe. Here in Europe, If you ask the general public in the street, we have currently the deepest sympathy for the Poles.

This US-Polish "friendship" is not based on sincerity (I am not speaking of individuals but of a Federal State level) but a tool to dismantle the Europe (re)unification.

My "old-European" point of view :(

[WARPIG]

Funny how a soldiers view of Polish comrads can be twisted to political rhetoric.
No mention of Polish foreign policy or our "friendship" of polish leaders was mentioned in the article nor the support from the troops on this forum... yet the political twist still comes up. Warriors recognizing warriors. When a proud man hears another praised, he feels himself injured.~English proverb.

[Loco]

America is not just young in comparison to the Europeans but have been fighting to shed it's European lineage since the beginning.

May you explain this better, Mr.Warpig?
As I see Ralph Peters´s article, it´s one more in the long american journalist tradition of vilifying one country only for attaking other country, with bastards motivation. I know, as spanish, a lot about this kind of american journalism, R.Hearst et alia of his school, NOT THE WHOLE AMERICAN JOURNALISM. Ralph Peters only tries to flatter the Polish ego in order to attack any defense European initiative that provides more independence of anybody, USA included. Peters forgot that the true strength of a country is its economy, USA taught everyone of us this, and Poland will be more indepent every 1% of richness it rises every year, Poland will never be independent with alms, but this statement is valid for every country, and polish economy is very tied to their neighbour countries, none of those are USA. Since Poland and other countries joined recently NATO they are VERY CLOSE to USA, then I don´t know what pretend Ralph Peters criticizing France. Being my country, Spain, very close to american policy in Irak, I don´t feel well reading this kinds of articles, I read other articles adulating Spain in USA newspapers the last years, but well, they didn´t sounded sinceres, exactly like this one. In Europe there are a lot of discussions about ourselves and our respectives roles in UE, and I discussed a lot with some germans in this forum about that, but I think we all agree UE is very important for us, and we all are aware of USA reserves about a strong and rich Europe, that includes a strong and rich Poland, of course.
Really, Peters could chose other way of adulating Poland than talking about the fight against islam. In some way, I think every european country could feel reflected in Peters´s article only changing Poland by ...Xland. In the case of Spain, well, if I´m sure of something is that spanish have fought against Islam more time than any other european country, and well, today I´m not sure if we did a good thing, but the fact is we were the only one who fought ALWAYS islamics, being arabs or turks, and THE ONLY ONE EUROPEAN COUNTRY NEVER PACTED WITH OTOMANS against europeans countries, we aren´t better because of that, but we did it and we are the only ones we can say it. Peters could talk about the first siege of Wienne, where were polands then? Only germans and a group of spanish with elite infantry and a badly needed cash were there, and Kitsune talked before of Lepanto, in 1571: All mediterranean sea was in the verge of being a turk lake, the trade between christians countries was cut by turk fleet, not to talk of the collapsed trade with middle east, turks corsairs asolated the homeland shores of Spain and turks were ready to invade Italy peninsula. In this critical situation, Poland refused to join the catholic coalition that was blessed by the Pope(then he wasn´t polish) as crusade. It seems that the rich commercial trade that Poland held with the Ottoman empire was prior for the king of Poland that the salvation of europa, and Turkey of that time was in the summit of his power, not in 1683(this last are not my words, but those of polish embassy in Spain). I am sure that Peters might find parallel coincidences between the Christian coalition of 1571 and that of 2003, but probably he wouldn´t like France looking like Polland and then he might not write his article. Already it´s known, a half truth is a finished lie.

[fantassin]

Very well said Loco, could not agree with you more.

What's even worst is that that so called journalist does not even realize how patronizing his piece of propaganda is; I'd feel insulted if I was a Pole reading this because it is a blatant insult to the Poles' intelligence.

The title of that sorry essay should be "There's a good boy"....

[wholagun]

Ok. Im confused what are we talking about here?

I just spent 20 min writing a response only in the end to realize 1) it was contraversial and could possibly start crap. 2) relaized that it had nothing to do with the thread.

[Kicius]

Durandal wrote:

"Then they got screwed again during the Warsaw uprising...by ALL the Allies"

The history of Poland is a history of screwed nation, unfortunately.
And I'm afraid that Poland will be screwed in future. Few times.

Not every Pole remember that.

: :oops:

[Kitsune]

:oops:

Loco is right by the way. The battle of Lepanto was 1571 and not 1576. I have corrected this above and hope that my history teacher does never visit this site...

[WARPIG]

WARPIG wrote:
America is not just young in comparison to the Europeans but have been fighting to shed it's European lineage since the beginning.


May you explain this better, Mr.Warpig?

Socially.
US Americans have been trying to deny their European heritage for decades! (Generally speaking) We may claim to be of Irish decent, German or the likes but we don't traditionally hold to European social inclinations. Americans tend to claim being American heritage.. as innacurate as that is. Compare many South American cultures like Brazil who claim strong Portugese heritage and show pride in their European blood lines. We are not the same.
I don't get the controversy in this. Yes the article is a little biased but the post itself is not. Poland gets a little appreciation and the rest of the Europeans get their feelings hurt. Give it a break!

[TALOS]

I don't get the controversy in this. Yes the article is a little biased but the post itself is not. Poland gets a little appreciation and the rest of the Europeans get their feelings hurt. Give it a break!

I noticed that too :roll:

[Groove]

Once a wise man said:

"States Dont Have Friends But Just Interests"

Never forget this.

PS: The sentence was like this one maybe not all the same words.

Groove

[wholagun]

wasn't that charles de Guall (spelling)

[Durandal]

Durandal could you point to the part in my post where I state that Britain REALLY helped Poland out, I myself have a little trouble finding it, as for France I only stated that French intelligence had a good working relationship with Polish intelligence and sheltered many after Poland was invaded nothing more.

Can you point out where my post was a DIRECT repsonse to yours? WARPIG already dealt with the reason WHY I made my statement, far better than I could right now.

[cut]

No offence to any poles, but for centuries Poland had an unfortunate reputation among the world powers due to the fact that everytime the polish got their own state, a war would break out, the only time it was not at war was when it was part of a bigger "state", I think it used to be Prussia (I can't remember before that), then the USSR, and unfortunately it won't get a prolonged chance to proove itself now because it is going to be part of the EU from may onwards.

Don't get me wrong I think Polands great, I grew up in central and eastern europe for 7 years and enjoyed it and I have lots of polish friends including my best mate. What I'm saying is don't judge European countries for what they did about Poland back then when it was seen as the middle east is now a trouble spot. And even the US with it's superpower status is staying out of the core of that trouble spot. So don't blame us for acting then like americans act now.

Also Polish soldiers fought in many battles in WWII alongside Britain and free french, such as in the RAF in the battle of britain and I think I'm right in saying at Monte Casino. Many of them stayed on in Britain after the war.

[Marmot1]

No offence to any poles, but for centuries Poland had an unfortunate reputation among the world powers due to the fact that everytime the polish got their own state, a war would break out, the only time it was not at war was when it was part of a bigger "state", I think it used to be Prussia (I can't remember before that), then the USSR, and unfortunately it won't get a prolonged chance to proove itself now because it is going to be part of the EU from may onwards. .

Wrong poland was independent state from 966 (the 1 polish king become christian) to 1792 then we were under ocupation to 1807 and to 1812 there wer independent poland allied with napoleon called Warsaw Duchy then napoleon was defeated and we were ahgain under occupation by Russia Germany and Austria ,then there was uprising against occupation in 1831 then next in 1864 then we regained independennce in 1918 and we were atacked by soviets just couple of months later in 1920 we won this war (battle caled "Vistula Miracle" clasified as 14th most important battle in mankind history) and we wer independent to 1939 when we were atacked by germans...
And Prussia was part of polland since 1525... after the teutonc knights wer finnaly defeated.... and teutonic knights (germans) were brirought to poland and then to prossia territory in 1241 to help fight pagan nation of prosses (dont mistake with german Prussian state) after they defeated Prouses they declared own state and started to invade poland and lithuania in late 1380's loland and lithuania signed union (which survived to 1792 (probably longest union in history)) and in 1410 teutonic knight were defeated inn battle of Grunwald (total victory of polish-lithuanian army with help of ruses (??? spelling) (since there was not russian state yet)



Don't get me wrong I think Polands great, I grew up in central and eastern europe for 7 years and enjoyed it and I have lots of polish friends including my best mate. What I'm saying is don't judge European countries for what they did about Poland back then when it was seen as the middle east is now a trouble spot. And even the US with it's superpower status is staying out of the core of that trouble spot. So don't blame us for acting then like americans act now.

Also Polish soldiers fought in many battles in WWII alongside Britain and free french, such as in the RAF in the battle of britain.
BofB - polish polots destroyed 17% of german aircrafts during that battle according to RAF and they wer no more than 7% of all allied pilots in that battle...



and I think I'm right in saying at Monte Casino. Many of them stayed on in Britain after the war.
Well they stayed since they were unable to return to their country since thy were betrayed by US and UK at Yalta (Jalta) Conference
Other battles were Tobruk,Falaise, Arnchem,Lenino,Berlin,Ancona,....

[wholagun]

Don't get me wrong I think Polands great rofl

its Poles not Polands..don't worry common mistake, happens all the time.

[cut]

it's a typo, it should be Poland's, as in "Poland is great" the country, I'm not stupid. :)

[cut]

No offence to any poles, but for centuries Poland had an unfortunate reputation among the world powers due to the fact that everytime the polish got their own state, a war would break out, the only time it was not at war was when it was part of a bigger "state", I think it used to be Prussia (I can't remember before that), then the USSR, and unfortunately it won't get a prolonged chance to proove itself now because it is going to be part of the EU from may onwards. .

Wrong poland was independent state from 966 (the 1 polish king become christian) to 1792 then we were under ocupation to 1807 and to 1812 there wer independent poland allied with napoleon called Warsaw Duchy then napoleon was defeated and we were ahgain under occupation by Russia Germany and Austria ,then there was uprising against occupation in 1831 then next in 1864 then we regained independennce in 1918 and we were atacked by soviets just couple of months later in 1920 we won this war (battle caled "Vistula Miracle" clasified as 14th most important battle in mankind history) and we wer independent to 1939 when we were atacked by germans...
And Prussia was part of polland since 1525... after the teutonc knights wer finnaly defeated.... and teutonic knights (germans) were brirought to poland and then to prossia territory in 1241 to help fight pagan nation of prosses (dont mistake with german Prussian state) after they defeated Prouses they declared own state and started to invade poland and lithuania in late 1380's loland and lithuania signed union (which survived to 1792 (probably longest union in history)) and in 1410 teutonic knight were defeated inn battle of Grunwald (total victory of polish-lithuanian army with help of ruses (??? spelling) (since there was not russian state yet)


this is what lecturers of international politics who have worked for the UN have said. I think it was Carr, who said this originaly.




Don't get me wrong I think Polands great, I grew up in central and eastern europe for 7 years and enjoyed it and I have lots of polish friends including my best mate. What I'm saying is don't judge European countries for what they did about Poland back then when it was seen as the middle east is now a trouble spot. And even the US with it's superpower status is staying out of the core of that trouble spot. So don't blame us for acting then like americans act now.

Also Polish soldiers fought in many battles in WWII alongside Britain and free french, such as in the RAF in the battle of britain.
BofB - polish polots destroyed 17% of german aircrafts during that battle according to RAF and they wer no more than 7% of all allied pilots in that battle...



I'm not sure about that, I could always look it up to proove you wrong but internet sources are often inaccurate.

for example: "Overall, 144 Polish pilots took part in the Battle, and scored 201.5 confirmed victories (17 of which were scored by the famous Czech ace, Josef Frantisek, who officially was a member of the Polish Air Force). 29 pilots were killed (including several in accidents), many more or less severely wounded. While this yields quite an impressive 'kill ratio', in terms of pure numbers can hardly seem a decisive factor (the entire RAF claimed 2698 'confirmed' victories)" source (http://ww2-aviation.net/polavhist/bob.html)

which is 7.46% not 17%, it just depends where you get it from, this site incidentally glorifies the polish pilots in WWII for the great work they did.




and I think I'm right in saying at Monte Casino. Many of them stayed on in Britain after the war.
Well they stayed since they were unable to return to their country since thy were betrayed by US and UK at Yalta (Jalta) Conference
Other battles were Tobruk,Falaise, Arnchem,Lenino,Berlin,Ancona,....

anti, anti, anti so you wanted the UK and the US to fight the Soviet Union after having born the brunt of the Nazis? What could we do?

[Groove]

The funny thing about this is that the US und GB Bomber Fleets didnt hit the axis factories too hard - they whiped out the cities instead. The idea behind it: Let the Germans fight against the Commies as long as possible.

Greetings

Groove

[wholagun]

it's a typo, it should be Poland's, as in "Poland is great" the country, I'm not stupid. :)

:oops: oh...well most ppl always say Polands not Poles, but Poland's changes the meaning compeletly.

[Durandal]

anti, anti, anti so you wanted the UK and the US to fight the Soviet Union after having born the brunt of the Nazis? What could we do?

Hold on a second...are you saying that the Americans and British bore the brunt of the war against the Germans? Just want to clarify...

Sorry if it is off topic to my original post...I am curious.

[Kicius]

anti, anti, anti so you wanted the UK and the US to fight the Soviet Union after having born the brunt of the Nazis? What could we do?

No, but they did nothing to prevent Poland became communist state.
No need to fight,just more decisive diplomacy.

12.09.1939 - Abeville
04.02.1945 - Yalta

They just decided to do nothing - twice.
Few more examples - but :(

I don't blame anybody - interests of the state are much more important then country somewhere in the eastern europe.
But nobody likes to be kicked in the ass by the ally.[/code]

[WARPIG]

Are we really arguing about the damn details and who wronged the Poles the worst? OK.. us "yanks" may think we have always been the hero in every war, but damn.. is European vanity really any worse?
Read this post from top to bottom again. It is like watching a bunch of jealous puppies yelping for attention because Durandal gave praise to one of you.

[Kicius]

Read this post from top to bottom again. It is like watching a bunch of jealous puppies yelping for attention because Durandal gave praise to one of you.


No more, no less. :oops:

[WARPIG]

I have to concede something.. even though the trite bickering was a little annoying.... I did enjoy the history lesson. Maybe the discussion can continue on another thread. It is really constructive to see the interpretation of history by different views. At least that part of this thread was helpful.

[TALOS]

Read this post from top to bottom again. It is like watching a bunch of jealous puppies yelping for attention because Durandal gave praise to one of you.
hahahaha ... like bein in a preschool playground

[Loco]

It´s a sorrow not to be wise and omniscient, always not to be over the earthly stinginess, to be always wrong, how I´d like you´d write :


Read this post from top to bottom again. It is like watching us being a bunch of jealous puppies yelping for attention because Durandal gave praise to all of us.
hahahaha ... like bein in a preschool playground
ah ... but sadly we are as we are, what goes away to do with this! But since I cannot avoid being the earthly one with wrong ideas, I think the article of Peters is full of false historical information and of empty words with the only purpose of creating discord between europeans. Who says that there is envy because of the praises of Peters? Please...we all are adult and rational.
And please, continue the discussion, it´s true that is interesting, I enjoy looking at you,
http://www.villagehatshop.com/media/beanie-jack-nicholson.gif

[TALOS]

It´s a sorrow not to be wise and omniscient, always not to be over the earthly stinginess, to be always wrong, how I´d like you´d write :


Read this post from top to bottom again. It is like watching us being a bunch of jealous puppies yelping for attention because Durandal gave praise to all of us.
hahahaha ... like bein in a preschool playground
ah ... but sadly we are as we are, what goes away to do with this! But since I cannot avoid being the earthly one with wrong ideas, I think the article of Peters is full of false historical information and of empty words with the only purpose of creating discord between europeans. Who says that there is envy because of the praises of Peters? Please...we all are adult and rational.
And please, continue the discussion, it´s true that is interesting, I enjoy looking at you,
http://www.villagehatshop.com/media/beanie-jack-nicholson.gif


WHAT????? :cantbeli:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Durandal since you posted straight after me with your lambaste and I can find no reference to Great Britain in any previous posts other than Fantassin's mention of Great Britain's recognition of Polands Communist regime. I have got to assume its my post you were referring to, you might have been shooting from the hip at the time, so no harm done.
Ralph Peters is talented but Peters does go for the jugular of Europe as often as he can, don't get me wrong I like his writing, his take on modern terrorism is spot on but he lashes out at Europeans at every opportunity, he really is no better than the sad Europeans that blame and attack the US and her citizens for almost everything.

[Durandal]

Durandal since you posted straight after me with your lambaste and I can find no reference to Great Britain in any previous posts other than Fantassin's mention of Great Britain's recognition of Polands Communist regime. I have got to assume its my post you were referring to, you might have been shooting from the hip at the time, so no harm done.
Ralph Peters is talented but Peters does go for the jugular of Europe as often as he can, don't get me wrong I like his writing, his take on modern terrorism is spot on but he lashes out at Europeans at every opportunity, he really is no better than the sad Europeans that blame and attack the US and her citizens for almost everything.

Right on.

I will however, disagree with you on his attacks in part because his attacks are 99% of the time directed at the European governments not their people...

I feel his take on governments is pretty psot on...

Have a good weekend peeps!