AH-64D Apache Longbow vs. AH-1Z Supercobra

[Phil]

http://www.nvsoftware.com/freebies/freestuff/AH-64D_01b.jpg http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/images/heroAH-1ZmPg750x365.jpg



Does anyone know what the pros and cons are of each helicopter compared to eachother?

[Michael RVR]

Apache looks meaner, but that said i think i'd rather have 3 cobras than 2 apaches.

(Costs going from memory, feel free to correct me).

I also think there are a heap of threads on this. ;)

[JoaMei]

Apache is more capable and modern, but also has high maintenance demand.

[HoboWithAK]

The Cobra was designed from just taking the UH-1 engine and drivetrain and sticking it in a stick fuselage. The Apache was built from the ground up as a dedicated attack helicopter. The AH-1Z is probably the last you will see of the Huey Cobra, as it's forty years old. The AH-64 still has lots of life left in it. Otherwise, I believe most weapon systems and electronics are the same.

[JTAR7242]

The Cobra remains the far superior close support platform, where as teh Apache is a tank hunter.

The Zulu Cobra is my choice, hands down, even with the antiquated platform. Its service, safety, and combat records are all far better than the Apache's.

[BadKarma26]

says the marine grundoon ;)

[ChuckThunder]

Cobra Zulu. Ooh rah!

[Ekie]

How about the AH-56-A:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/AH-56A_00.jpg

[FallenAngel]

says the marine grundoon ;)

Feel free to check the numbers yourself. I think you'll find he's right. The Zulu Cobra will be able to do almost everything an apache does just as well (or better) for about 1/3 the cost. ;)

[BadKarma26]

where can i check the numbers?

[rister]

SPECIFICATIONS - AH-1W / AH-1Z SUPER COBRA ATTACK HELICOPTER, USADimensions
Length 13.9 metres
Height 4.02 metres
rotor diameter 14.63 metres
Powerplant 2 general electric T700-401 rated at 1,625 shp
Weight
empty weight 12,200 lbs (10,920 lbs)
maximum gross weight 16,800 lbs (14,750 lbs)
internal fuel 2755 lbs(2,086 lbs)
maximum ordnance 3,914 lbs (1,661 lbs)
hovering out of ground effect (HOGE) gross weight 16,600 lbs (10,300 lbs)
Performance
maximum airspeed 210 knots (170 knots)
cruise speed at altitude 3,000 ft and 91.5 deg F 148 knots (137 knots)
cruise speed at altitude 4,000 ft and 95 deg F 137 knots (131 knots)
maximum range with 20 minutes reserve fuel 350 nautical miles
endurance with 20 minutes reserve fuel 3 hours 30 minutes (2 h 48 min)
maximum g-load +3.2 g (+2.5g)
minimum g-load -0.5 g (+0.5g)
vertical rate of climb at altitude 3,000 ft 1,740 ft/minute (645 ft/minute)
vertical rate of climb at altitude 4,000 ft 1,386 ft/minute (315 ft/minute)
vertical rate of climb at altitude 4,000 ft 1,386 ft/minute (315 ft/minute)

SPECIFICATIONS - AH-64A/D APACHE ATTACK HELICOPTER, USACrew 2 crew: pilot and copilot/gunner
diameter main rotor blades 14,630 cm
Height 3,590 cm
empty weight 5,352 kilograms
maximum cruising speed 260 kilometres per hour
maximum rate of climb 942 meters per minute
maximum vertical rate of climb 474 meters per minute
Range 400 kilometres on internal fuel
1,900 kilometres on internal and external fuel
maximum endurance 3 hours 9 minutes on internal fuel
the g limit values +3.5 g to -0.5 g


AH-1W / AH-1Z SUPER COBRA ATTACK HELICOPTER, USAThe AH-1W Super Cobra is the US Marine's attack helicopter. It is supplied by Bell Helicopter Textron and entered service in 1985. As well as the US Marine Corps, the Super Cobra is operational with the Turkish Land Forces and the armed forces of Taiwan. The AH-1W was deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom in March 2003.

AH-1Z UPGRADE PROGRAMME
A major upgrade of the Bell Super Cobra, known as the H-1 Program, is underway. The program calls for the remanufacture of the US Marine Corps fleet of 180 AH-1W Super Cobra and 100 UH-1N utility helicopters to an advanced four-bladed configuration. The existing two-bladed semi-rigid, teetering rotor system is being replaced with a four-bladed, hingeless, bearingless rotor system. First flight of the AH-1Z took place in December 2000. The program has completed Engineering and Manufacturing Development and, in October 2003, was cleared for low rate initial production (LRIP). Three AH-1W helicopters are being remanufactured to AH-1Z standard in 2004 and three in 2005. Operational evaluation is scheduled to start in mid-2005. Full-rate production is scheduled for February 2006 with initial operating capability in June 2009. The improvement in flight characteristics provided by the four-bladed configuration has led to increases in flight envelope, maximum speed, vertical rate-of-climb, payload and rotor vibration level.

The Turkish Army selected the AH-1Z King Cobra in July 2000 with a request for 50 out of a total requirement for 145 helicopters. In May 2004, it was announced that the acquisition was to be cancelled. The helicopters were to be built in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).

COCKPIT
Northrop Grumman has developed the Integrated Avionics Systems for the AH-1Z. The systems include two mission computers and an automatic flight control system with four-axis stability control augmentation system. Each crew station has two 8in x 6in multifunction displays and one 4.2in x 4.2in dual function display, based on active matrix liquid crystal colour technology.

The communications suite combines the new US Navy RT-1824 integrated radio, UHF/VHF, COMSEC and modem in a single unit. The navigation suite includes an Embedded GPS Inertial (EGI), a low airspeed air data subsystem which allows weapons delivery when hovering and digital map.

In June 2002, Thales Avionics' TopOwl helmet-mounted display system was chosen for the USMC AH-1Z. The first system was delivered in January 2003. TopOwl, also fitted on Tiger, NH90 and Rooivalk helicopters, has integrated Gen IV image intensifier and FLIR capability and provides transition from day to night use at the push of a button.

WEAPONS
The Super Cobra can carry both TOW and Hellfire anti-armour missiles and is being qualified to carry the Maverick missile. The Raytheon BGM-71 TOW missile has a range of more than 3km and semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight guidance. The AGM-114 Hellfire missile is manufactured by Lockheed Martin. It is equipped with a semi-active laser seeker and has a range of 7km. The Super Cobra has fire-and-forget capability when firing the Hellfire missile in co-operative mode with laser target illumination.

The Super Cobra was the first attack helicopter to qualify both the Sidewinder air-to-air missile and the Sidearm anti-radiation missile. Both missiles can use the same LAU-7 rail launcher. Sidearm has a range of more than 15km. AIM-9L Sidewinder is an all-aspect short-range air-to-air missile produced by Lockheed Martin and Raytheon. The missile has a range of 15km.

The Super Cobra can fire the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS), formerly known as Hydra, family of guided and unguided 70mm rockets or the larger 127mm Zuni rocket bombs.

The Super Cobra carries a three-barrel 20mm Gatling gun for close range (up to 2km) engagement and 750 rounds of ammunition. With the gun in a fixed forward position, the pilot can aim by manoeuvring the helicopter. Either crew member can slave the turret to the helmet-mounted sight, and aim the gun by looking at the target.

The AH-1Z for the USMC will be armed with: 16 Hellfire missiles, six AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, 70mm rocket pods (7- and 19-shot), as well as the 20mm gun.

SENSORS
Targeting for the AH-1W is provided by the Night Targeting System (NTS), jointly produced by Tamam Division of Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd and Kollsman. NTS integrates a Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) which provides automatic target tracking with a laser designator / rangefinder and video recorder.

Lockheed Martin is developing a longer range Target Sight System (TSS) for the AH-1Z to replace the NTS. TSS includes a third-generation four field-of-view FLIR based on a 3-5 micron staring array, CCD colour TV, eyesafe laser rangefinder / designator and multi-target autotracker.

Longbow International (a joint venture of Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman) is developing the Cobra Radar System for the AH-1Z, based on the Longbow millimetre wave radar on the AH-64D Apache. Cobra is a pod-based radar that can be mounted on a wingtip or in a stores position. Cobra can automatically search, detect, classify and prioritise multiple moving and stationary targets. It has a range of 8km against moving and 4km against stationary targets.

COUNTERMEASURES

The H1 Super Cobra upgrade includes provision of a new electronic warfare suite. A new radar warner, the AN/APR-39(XE2) from Lockheed Martin replaces the Lockheed Martin AN/APR-39(V)2 pulse radar warner and the AEL Industries AN/APR-44 continuous wave radar warner. The ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning system has been included in the upgrade suite. AN/AAR-47 uses infrared detectors to detect the missile plume. The Goodrich (formerly Raytheon) AN/AVR-2A laser warning receiver has also been added. The infrared countermeasures system is the AN/ALQ-144A developed by BAE Systems IEWS (formerly Sanders, a Lockheed Martin company). The helicopter is equipped with the AN/ALE-39 chaff and infrared flare dispenser manufactured by BAE Systems Integrated Defense Solutions (formerly Tracor) and Lockheed Martin Tactical Defense Systems.

ENGINES

Twin General Electric T700-GE-401 turboshaft engines provide a total of 2,410kW or 3,380shp (shaft horsepower). In standard conditions, with an air-to-air ordnance load the Super Cobra can take off and climb out at more than 4.1m/sec on only one engine. It can hover Out of Ground Effect (OGE) at 914m with a load of four TOW and four Hellfire missiles, full turret ammunition and rockets.


AH-64A/D APACHE ATTACK HELICOPTER, USA
The Apache is a twin-engined army attack helicopter developed by McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing). It entered service with the US Army in 1984 and has been exported to Egypt, Greece, Israel, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom. The US Army has more than 800 Apaches in service and more than 1,000 have been exported. The Apache was first used in combat in 1989 in the US military action in Panama. It was used in Operation Desert Storm and has supported low intensity and peacekeeping operations worldwide including Turkey, Bosnia and Kosovo. The AH-64D Longbow has been deployed by the US Army in Afghanistan as part of Operation Anaconda, in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom and, from June 2003, in South Korea.

The AH-64D Longbow is fitted with the Longbow millimetre wave fire control radar and the Longbow Hellfire missile. 500 AH-64Ds have been delivered and 380 are in service with the US Army out of a total of 501 procured - 232 new build and 269 US Army AH-64A Apaches being upgraded to AH-64D standard. Deliveries are to complete in 2006. The Longbow has also been ordered by the Netherlands (30, deliveries complete), Singapore (20, first delivered in May 2002), Israel (nine new, four remanufactured, first delivery March 2005) and Egypt (35). A number of AH-64A helicopters have been upgraded to AH-64D standard for South Korea. The United Arab Emirates (UAE) has requested the upgrade of 30 Apaches to AH-64D longbow standard.

In August 2001, the AH-64D was selected by the Japanese Ground Self-Defence Force, with a requirement for 60 helicopters, and in September 2002, Kuwait ordered 16 AH-64D helicopters for delivery from 2005. The Kuwaiti Apaches will be equipped with BAE Systems HIDAS defensive aids system. In September 2003, Greece signed a contract for 12 (plus four options) AH-64D Longbow, also to be fitted with HIDAS.

The first of the upgraded Block II Apaches was delivered to the US Army in February 2003. Block II includes upgrades to the digital communications systems to improve communications within the "tactical internet". Block III improvements, slated for 2008 on, include increasing digitisation, the Joint Tactical Radio System, enhanced engines and drive systems, capability to control UAVs and new composite rotor blade. The new blades, which successfully completed flight testing in May 2004, increase the Apache's cruise speed, climb rate and payload capability.

WAH 64
A consortium of GKN Westland (now AgustaWestland), Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Shorts bid a version of the Longbow Apache for the UK Army attack helicopter requirement which was selected in July 1995. Assembly of the WAH-64 Longbow Apache was carried out in the UK by AgustaWestland. The first helicopter entered service in January 2001 designated as the AH Mk 1. 67 helicopters have been delivered - the last was formally handed over at the Farnborough Air Show in July 2004. Initial Operating Capability was achieved in October 2004 and the fleet of three Army Air Corps regiments of 18 helicopters each is expected to be fully operational by 2007.

WEAPONS

A 30mm automatic Boeing M230 Chain Gun is located under the fuselage. It provides a rate of fire of 625 rounds per minute. The helicopter has capacity for up to 1,200 rounds of ammunition.

The AH-64D is armed with the Lockheed Martin/Boeing AGM-114D Longbow Hellfire air-to-surface missile which has a millimetre wave seeker, allowing the missile to perform in full fire and forget mode. Range is 8km to 12km. The Apache can be equipped with air-to-air missiles (Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm) and the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS), formerly known as Hydra, family of guided and unguided 70mm rockets.

British Army AH Mk 1 helicopters are armed with the CRV7 70mm rocket system from Bristol Aerospace of Winnipeg, Manitoba.

The Longbow Apache carries the combination of armaments chosen for the particular mission. In the close support role the helicopter carries 16 Hellfire missiles on four 4-rail launchers and four air-to-air missiles.

SENSORS

The AH-64D Longbow Apache is equipped with the Northrop Grumman millimetre-wave Longbow radar. The Longbow fire control radar incorporates an integrated radar frequency interferometer for passive location and identification of radar emitting threats. An advantage of millimetre wave is that it performs under poor visibility conditions and is less sensitive to ground clutter. The short wavelength allows a very narrow beamwidth which is resistant to countermeasures.

The Longbow Apache can effect an attack in thirty seconds. The radar dome is unmasked for a single radar scan and then remasked. The processors determine the location, speed and direction of travel of a maximum of 256 targets.

The Target Acquisition Designation Sight, TADS (AN/ASQ-170) and the Pilot Night Vision Sensor, PNVS (AN/AAQ-11) were developed by Lockheed Martin. The turret-mounted TADS provides direct view optics, television and three fields of view forward looking infra-red (FLIR) to carry out search, detection and recognition and Litton laser rangefinder/designator. PNVS consists of a FLIR in a rotating turret located on the nose above the TADS. The image from the PNVS is displayed in the monocular eyepiece of the Honeywell Integrated Helmet And Display Sighting System (IHADSS) worn by the pilot and copilot/gunner.

Lockheed Martin has developed a new targeting and night vision system for the Apaches, using second-generation long-wave infrared sensors with improved range and resolution. The new system is called Arrowhead and it has a targeting FLIR with three fields of view, a dual field-of-view pilotage FLIR, a CCD TV camera, electronic zoom, target tracker and auto-boresight. Arrowhead entered production in December 2003 and is planned to enter service with the US Army in June 2005. 704 US Army Apaches are to be equipped with Arrowhead by 2011.

COUNTERMEASURES

The Apache is equipped with an electronic warfare suite consisting of: AN/APR-39A(V) radar warning receiver from Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) and Lockheed Martin; AN/ALQ-144 infra-red countermeasures set from BAE Systems IEWS (formerly Sanders, a Lockheed Martin company); AN/AVR-2 laser warning receiver from Goodrich (formerly Hughes Danbury Optical Systems then Raytheon); AN/ALQ-136(V) radar jammer developed by ITT; and chaff dispensers. US Army Longbow Apaches were to be fitted with the ITT AN/ALQ-211 SIRCM (Suite of Integrated Radio Frequency Countermeasures) suite, however the availability of funding for this project is uncertain. UK AH Mk 1 Apaches are fitted with BAE Systems Helicopter Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (HIDAS), also chosen by Kuwait and Greece. HIDAS, which includes the Sky Guardian 2000 radar warning receiver, entered service on the AH Mk 1 in July 2003.

ENGINES

The Apache is equipped with two turboshaft engines each providing 1,265kW. The American AH-64D has General Electric T700-GE-701 engines and the UK Apache is fitted with RTM322 engines from Rolls-Royce/Turbomeca.

[muede]

IMHO, Cobra is the nastiest looking Gunship around after Hind, but these both even the Z Cobra dont have a change when the capability of the machines is compared to Longbow Apache. ;<

[Scrim]

The Cobra remains the far superior close support platform, where as teh Apache is a tank hunter.

The Zulu Cobra is my choice, hands down, even with the antiquated platform. Its service, safety, and combat records are all far better than the Apache's.

X2.

[Chuck6d]

Apaches got their asses handed to them during Operation Anaconda and they ended up bringing in the Marines with their Super Cobras. Also seems the Apache didn't do so hot in OIF. The Apache might have all the gee whiz tech, but the Cobra kicks its ass.

[Bulkowski]

Cobras are like AMD, where as Apaches are like Intel... ;)

[Seraphim]

Cobras are like AMD, where as Apaches are like Intel... ;)

Oh no you didnt!

[kutter]

Cobras are like AMD, where as Apaches are like Intel... ;)

rofl

(btw, I voted for the Cobra)

[Sinfulcurves_AK107]

I voted for the Apache, prolly my fave ~US AH~ Anyways, where's the KA-50? ;)

PS: Did ya guys ever read the article about the Apache's being abushed successfully? Here's a bit or txt I had found from an article once

~Just over a week ago, Iraqi troops from the Republican Guard's Medina division gave a little clinic in helicopter ambush, meeting a line of Apache Longbow copters with a well planned and executed wall of fire from machine guns, antiaircraft guns and RPGs. The Iraqis were dispersed along both sides of a street in a residential area near Baghdad, some firing from the rooftops of houses.

The Iraqis badly damaged 30 of the Apache helicopters, foiled their attack on Republican Guard armor and sent them limping back home~

[FozzieBear]

id say the apache looks more aggresive, they both suit different rolls though.

[RGRBOX]

How about the AH-56-A:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/AH-56A_00.jpg

Should call that one the DragonFly...

[gaijinsamurai]

I voted for the Cobra. Not because i care about the looks, but because I think it will do just about everything the Apache will do, at far less cost AND maintenance requirements. I'm also biased due to the fact that Cobras protected my ass from Iraqi armor during the 1991 Gulf War.

[Zorro C9]

You guys talk about how it's 40 years old. It's not. The only thing in common with the Cobras from years ago is the shape. Everything else is brand spanking new.

I'll take the Cobra. The Apache is cool...just not as cool.

[LibertyUnites]

I voted for the Apache, prolly my fave ~US AH~ Anyways, where's the KA-50? ;)

PS: Did ya guys ever read the article about the Apache's being abushed successfully? Here's a bit or txt I had found from an article once

~Just over a week ago, Iraqi troops from the Republican Guard's Medina division gave a little clinic in helicopter ambush, meeting a line of Apache Longbow copters with a well planned and executed wall of fire from machine guns, antiaircraft guns and RPGs. The Iraqis were dispersed along both sides of a street in a residential area near Baghdad, some firing from the rooftops of houses.

The Iraqis badly damaged 30 of the Apache helicopters, foiled their attack on Republican Guard armor and sent them limping back home~

That attack had nothing to do with the Apache's capabilities. Both helicopters fly low and fast to avoid fire, and the Iraqis knew this, setting up an attack to appropriately counter this tactic. The point is, the Apaches all came home.

And to whoever said Anaconda was a failure for the Apache should present some evidence, because everything I've read has been to the contrary. 8 Apaches initially took part in the operation, protecting LZs and such. They hampered the Taliban's efforts to ambush LZs so much that the Apaches became a primary target, as one quote said (IIRC) "I saw the Apaches get hit with a lot of ****, and take it." All 8 Apaches were damaged on the first day alone, but stayed in the fight (save one I believe, which returned with a hole blown in the tranny) 16 more Apaches were requested, and arrived within 3 days to join the fight.

[Seraphim]

I voted for the Apache, prolly my fave ~US AH~ Anyways, where's the KA-50? ;)

PS: Did ya guys ever read the article about the Apache's being abushed successfully? Here's a bit or txt I had found from an article once

~Just over a week ago, Iraqi troops from the Republican Guard's Medina division gave a little clinic in helicopter ambush, meeting a line of Apache Longbow copters with a well planned and executed wall of fire from machine guns, antiaircraft guns and RPGs. The Iraqis were dispersed along both sides of a street in a residential area near Baghdad, some firing from the rooftops of houses.

The Iraqis badly damaged 30 of the Apache helicopters, foiled their attack on Republican Guard armor and sent them limping back home~

That attack had nothing to do with the Apache's capabilities. Both helicopters fly low and fast to avoid fire, and the Iraqis knew this, setting up an attack to appropriately counter this tactic. The point is, the Apaches all came home.

No one Apache went down...remember the 2 POW pilots?

[sergey31]

Both choppers lack good armor for real close in dirty fighting like Mi 24. Also both choppers have less then good cannons. Cobra is a slow rate wide-spread almost like "shotgun shooting" gatling and Apache has low velocity 30mm that has it's guts exposed and jams very fast in dust and sand environment....... IMO Cobra is better because it's cheaper and smaller target profile from front, Apache is better operating at night and against third world armor. And Apache does look better then Cobra.

[LibertyUnites]

I voted for the Apache, prolly my fave ~US AH~ Anyways, where's the KA-50? ;)

PS: Did ya guys ever read the article about the Apache's being abushed successfully? Here's a bit or txt I had found from an article once

~Just over a week ago, Iraqi troops from the Republican Guard's Medina division gave a little clinic in helicopter ambush, meeting a line of Apache Longbow copters with a well planned and executed wall of fire from machine guns, antiaircraft guns and RPGs. The Iraqis were dispersed along both sides of a street in a residential area near Baghdad, some firing from the rooftops of houses.

The Iraqis badly damaged 30 of the Apache helicopters, foiled their attack on Republican Guard armor and sent them limping back home~

That attack had nothing to do with the Apache's capabilities. Both helicopters fly low and fast to avoid fire, and the Iraqis knew this, setting up an attack to appropriately counter this tactic. The point is, the Apaches all came home.

No one Apache went down...remember the 2 POW pilots?

you are correct, I didnt know that apache had been part of the ambush until just now.

[LibertyUnites]

while i still prefer Apaches, I do have to say that I really dont see the need for the Longbow variants much anymore. Had WWIII broken out on European plains I think the AH64Ds wouldve annihilated armor columns, but given the US's current operations, it is unneccesary and from what I've heard, makes the Apaches difficult and cumebrsome to fly in higher altitudes such as in mountainous parts of Afghanistan. I think we should divert cash into improving the proven non-Longbow equipped Apaches

[GothicSnake]

I voted for the Cobra. It's smaller and sleeker, carries the same weaponry and avionics, and is cheaper. Not to mention it just looks so much more badass, IMO. And we know that's the most important part of any piece of military equipment: the purdyness of it. :) :P

[sowannab]

i thought cobras didnt have armour plating like the apaches?
i read apaches had great armour compared to cobras which are not armour plated
is that right
experts pls help

[Dling]

The Iraqis badly damaged 30 of the Apache helicopters, foiled their attack on Republican Guard armor and sent them limping back home~

Thing is that most of them still made it back. Concentrated fire is not a helo's friend regardless of the helicopter.

Poorly planned tactics and intel resulted in failure.