PDA

View Full Version : Iraq: When Are Terrorists Really Insurgents?



hist2004
07-31-2005, 08:53 AM
Iraq: When Are Terrorists Really Insurgents?

One Person’s Terrorist …
Rumsfeld’s latest Iraq visit included some tough talking to Baghdad’s new government. Why the language matters.

By Joe Cochrane

Newsweek

July 28, 2005

July 28 - It was an unannounced visit, but Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld proved to be full of announcements as he steamrolled through Iraq on a one-day trip yesterday. And the namesake of "Rummyworld," as Iraq is sometimes referred to these days, certainly gave transitional Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari some blunt talk during their private meeting. The message was clear: the United States wants to begin pulling troops out of Iraq within a year, and the country's leadership must start getting tough to ensure that things are stable enough for it to happen.

Armed with a serious to-do list, Rumsfeld told Jaafari that Washington would not look kindly on any delays in submitting a draft Iraqi constitution to parliament by the Aug. 15 deadline. Any postponements caused by bickering among the country's three main factions could push back an October nationwide constitutional referendum and national elections slated for December, ultimately jeopardizing plans to begin withdrawing large numbers of American soldiers in spring 2006. Rumsfeld also told the Iraqi PM to be ready to assume more responsibility for up to 15,000 Iraqi detainees in American custody and to make plans to take over security duties from more than 20,000 foreign Coalition soldiers who are scheduled to withdraw by December.

Rumsfeld offered some of his trademark blunt advice to the new government: start talking tough to neighboring Syria and Iran "to see that foreign terrorists stop coming across those borders and that their neighbors do not harbor insurgents and finance insurgents in a way that is destructive of what the Iraqi people are trying to accomplish," he said. That statement not only highlighted Iraq's largest external security threat, but underscored a point that tends to get lost in the fog of propaganda on the ground here. The new Iraq government is facing not one security threat, but two. The biggest one is from Iraqi insurgents—mostly drawn from the ranks of the disaffected Sunni minority who enjoyed favored status under Saddam Hussein. The secondary threat comes from foreign suicide bombers—the kind Western governments vilify as a grave threat to human civilization.

The distinction between resistance and terror is an important one—and one not often made by U.S. officials in Iraq. Take, for example, the daily press releases from the U.S. military via their combined public information center, a.k.a. CPIC—here in Baghdad. A military operation in Mosul: 10 terrorists captured, is a typical comment. A firefight in outside Baghdad: three terrorists killed. A security sweep based on good intelligence—a terrorist operation thwarted. It all sounds pretty clear. But it's not. The vast majority of these so-called terrorists that the U.S. military brags about killing and capturing are actually insurgents fighting the American occupation and the fledgling Iraqi government. Categorizing them as terrorists has probably played well with a gullible American public—indeed, it probably makes them feel safer—but factually speaking it's wrong.

The vast majority of attacks against U.S. and Iraqi security forces are perpetrated by former members of Saddam Hussein's regime and Sunnis fearful of being politically marginalized by the Kurds and majority Shiites. Then there are the foreign Muslims coming into Iraq to wage jihad against the United States and its allies, primarily through suicide bombings. The first group sees itself as resisting an army of occupation, the second neither cares about the Iraqi people nor the country's political status, wanting only to thwart the Americans by creating fear and chaos. The latter group can fairly be called terrorists.

What's the difference? Most dictionaries define insurgents as members of an organized revolt against a recognized government, usually through harassment or subversion. Terrorists, on
the other hand, generally target civilians, using violence for intimidation or coercion, often for ideological reasons or under cover of religion. It's clear that both are operating in Iraq at the moment, and equally clear that there are times when the line is blurred. Should those who bomb American soldiers without caring if ordinary Iraqis get hurt—and there are many cases of those—be labeled differently to those who specifically target young jobseekers or senior citizens waiting to collect their pensions?

In all fairness, U.S. military commanders usually make clear distinctions between insurgents and terrorists during their regular briefings inside the Green Zone in Baghdad. These sessions are slightly surreal—military officers and journalists, inside six square miles of blast walls and barbed wire, debate fighting outside that kills hundreds each month. But why, in between these weekly briefings, do the military's press releases seem to identify everyone against them or the Iraqi government as a terrorist? That in itself raises some other troubling questions: is this deliberate White House or Pentagon spin? Is this an evolution of the cold war mentality of calling people who are perceived threats communists? Should we start referring to pickpockets and junior-high bullies as terrorists?

Of course not. But we can't only blame American spin doctors for misleading language. Russia has scored huge points by calling Chechen rebels "international Islamic terrorists," even though they've been fighting for independence for well over a century and consider Russian sovereignty over them as an occupation. Then there's Indonesia, which after the 9/11 attacks started calling armed separatists in Aceh province "terrorists" in hopes of getting them on the infamous U.S. list of terrorist organizations. The Americans balked at that one, probably because the Indonesian military has been even worse, killing thousands of civilians during the 29-year conflict, not to mention admitting to the rapes of at least 10,000 women. The debate over describing someone as a terrorist is hardly new. In conflicts the world over, one side's "terrorist" has often been the other side's freedom fighter. But while many news organizations try to use the word judiciously, it has become a bigger part of the public discourse since the 9/11 attacks.

Obviously a change in nomenclature is not going to change the bleak situation on the ground in Iraq. "Any foreigners who want to kill us or stop the political process, we will have to fight them long after the Americans leave," Adnan al-Janabi, a senior member of Iraq's national assembly, told NEWSWEEK this week. Iraqi officials are hopeful that the insurgency will fade away after a permanent constitution is ratified, new elections are held and U.S. soldiers withdraw. But that doesn’t mean they expect terrorism to go away any time soon.

Regards,
Hist2004

Kaapeli
07-31-2005, 01:27 PM
There are so many resistance groups with (partly) different motives and ways of operating:
- Ba'ath supporters (want the old regime back)
- Nationalists (Coalition troops out and independence for Irak)
- Sunni islamists (Sunni muslims to power)
- Shia islamists (Shia muslims to power)
- foreign jihadists (eject the infidels from holy land)
- criminals and opportunists (capture people for ransom)

Nationalists seem to be the largest and most universally supported group among Iraq population (specializing in IED's and other low risk attacks against Coalition troops) but the radical islamists and foreign jihadists are more visible in media because of their indiscriminate suicide attacks against everything and especially because they have connections to international terrorism.

Many of these groups seem to intermix a lot. For example Sunni ja Shia rebels are mostly nationalists too but not all nationalists identify themselves as Sunni/Shia islamists.

Argyll
07-31-2005, 03:45 PM
Why is Rumsfelt dictating to a democraticly elected government about thier constitution?

And people wonder why there are those who believe the current Iraqi Government is just a puppet one?


However intersting article!!

toad
07-31-2005, 03:56 PM
I'm guessing for the same reason that we dictated what happened in post war Germany and Japan....

Argyll
07-31-2005, 03:59 PM
Which was?

SavikLion
07-31-2005, 05:13 PM
I think it comes down to intent, if you intend to behead and kill civilians or off duty soldiers without any value for human life to create fear and bring about change you are a terrorist.
If you intend to fight an opposing force using whatever tactics excluding those of the terrorist, then you are an insurgent.
Basically if a guy straps C4 to his body and walks into a police station, market, etc and detonates it, he is a terrorist, if he straps the same C4 but instead attacks an M1A he is an insurgent.

CountZero
07-31-2005, 05:50 PM
I think it comes down to intent, if you intend to behead and kill civilians or off duty soldiers without any value for human life to create fear and bring about change you are a terrorist.
If you intend to fight an opposing force using whatever tactics excluding those of the terrorist, then you are an insurgent.
Basically if a guy straps C4 to his body and walks into a police station, market, etc and detonates it, he is a terrorist, if he straps the same C4 but instead attacks an M1A he is an insurgent.

okay the distinction has some merit. However what about if he plants a mine with the intent of blowing a military vechicle to pieces. yet a civilian vechicle stumbles upon it and gets blown . whould you qualify that as an insurgent or a terrorist.

SavikLion
07-31-2005, 06:19 PM
Still and insurgent, his intent was to attack a military target and not a civilian one; it was collateral damage which I am not saying like it’s not a big deal. But rather an unfortunate product of armed conflict has happened in every war that man had ever participated in. I don’t support insurgents but that is no different than an errant bomb, etc.
I think the more difficult question would be if he detonates the weapon at a military vehicle, knowing that there is going to be civilian casualties. That’s a choice that every armed service has had to make. I think it is still unfortunately part of war, especially in urban environments. He isn’t targeting them directly nor is anyone else, but the environment is a fluid one, where unexpected and unintended casualties will occur. I do think it is important to note that coalition soldiers do a great job in not killing or wounding non combatants, but it still does occur. A terrorist on the other hand measures his success by how many civilians he kills. Deliberately blowing up a school yard full of kids to kill one soldier is a terrorist act because you targeted them both, firing an RPG at a M1 and it misses the tank and hits the school yard I would say again is collateral damage, though firing it was bad judgment.

Argyll
07-31-2005, 06:30 PM
When the CIA backed Mujihadeen in AFG were cutting the heads of Russian conscripts I don't remember them being called Terrorists!!... :roll:

Decapitating captives isn't a new concept in the ME or Africa,they were happening to the British during Kitcheners campaign in Sudan in the 1800's..........

caridon
07-31-2005, 06:57 PM
I think it comes down to intent, if you intend to behead and kill civilians or off duty soldiers without any value for human life to create fear and bring about change you are a terrorist.
If you intend to fight an opposing force using whatever tactics excluding those of the terrorist, then you are an insurgent.
Basically if a guy straps C4 to his body and walks into a police station, market, etc and detonates it, he is a terrorist, if he straps the same C4 but instead attacks an M1A he is an insurgent.

I would not accept the term terrorist for the case with the policestation, police are a valid military target.

/C - nitpicking

Sayeret
07-31-2005, 07:13 PM
When the CIA backed Mujihadeen in AFG were cutting the heads of Russian conscripts I don't remember them being called Terrorists!!... :roll:

Decapitating captives isn't a new concept in the ME or Africa,they were happening to the British during Kitcheners campaign in Sudan in the 1800's..........

I don't believe you could consider someone a terrorist for beheading an enemy soldier. It's definitely horrible act and a war crime but not an act of terrorism.

Btw Great Britain along with several other countries then just the USA supported the Mujahadeen.

Kaapeli
07-31-2005, 07:17 PM
When the CIA backed Mujihadeen in AFG were cutting the heads of Russian conscripts I don't remember them being called Terrorists!!... :roll:

Decapitating captives isn't a new concept in the ME or Africa,they were happening to the British during Kitcheners campaign in Sudan in the 1800's..........

The way terrorists use decapitation (by cutting the throat with a knife) is a barbaric terror tactic that unnerves us westerners.

But there's more to it than just that.
As a way of execution when done properly with a clean stroke of a sharp sword, axe or a guillotin it's no more brutal or painful than hanging, the electric chair or a firing squad (all these common in western nations). A clean quick death more often than not.

callous
07-31-2005, 07:37 PM
I never watched any of the videos of people being beheaded in Iraq. It's not something I want to see. From what everyone said about them. They were far from quick. Cutting thier heads of with one quick stroke would'vebeen bad in itself, but sawing someone's head off with a knife is **** ing horrible.

SavikLion
07-31-2005, 07:41 PM
I think it comes down to intent, if you intend to behead and kill civilians or off duty soldiers without any value for human life to create fear and bring about change you are a terrorist.
If you intend to fight an opposing force using whatever tactics excluding those of the terrorist, then you are an insurgent.
Basically if a guy straps C4 to his body and walks into a police station, market, etc and detonates it, he is a terrorist, if he straps the same C4 but instead attacks an M1A he is an insurgent.

I would not accept the term terrorist for the case with the policestation, police are a valid military target.

/C - nitpicking

I was wondering when someone would bring up that argument. There is a gray area here as well. I would disagree especially because most of the suicide attacks on police stations have been recruiting stations, where the victims are not even police officers yet. Also even though they are armed they are there to provide stability and service to the public, and are not a military force. Now if they engage in warfare and become like a Gestapo or a military police unit then yeah it’s a valid target. I mean even when unarmed soldiers coming home are pull from their car and killed, they are civilians. You’re not attacking their unit or their base; you are attacking individuals that are unarmed. So they are in essence an unarmed civilian at that point, which happen to be in the military. Also in most cases that I have seen they are targeting the civilians interested in joining the police force or the national guard.

SavikLion
07-31-2005, 07:50 PM
When the CIA backed Mujihadeen in AFG were cutting the heads of Russian conscripts I don't remember them being called Terrorists!!... :roll:

Decapitating captives isn't a new concept in the ME or Africa,they were happening to the British during Kitcheners campaign in Sudan in the 1800's..........

The way terrorists use decapitation (by cutting the throat with a knife) is a barbaric terror tactic that unnerves us westerners.

But there's more to it than just that.
As a way of execution when done properly with a clean stroke of a sharp sword, axe or a guillotin it's no more brutal or painful than hanging, the electric chair or a firing squad (all these common in western nations). A clean quick death more often than not.

I have yet to see one of the videos where it is a clean cut, it is always a rough, jerky sawing motion, then a chopping at the end to separate the head from the spine, and in some cases you hear the last screeching sounds blare out of the larynx. From the videos from Chechnya to the Danny Pearl, to the beheadings in Iraq, never once did I see a quick death. Also equating the death penalty argument for someone convicted of murdering, rapping etc, to some killed for being a contractor working to rebuild power lines, or a reporter, etc seems to be an awkward spin on the beheading tactic used by terrorist.

jmatucd
07-31-2005, 08:05 PM
Why is Rumsfelt dictating to a democraticly elected government about thier constitution?

It seems that Rumsfeld is proding them into actually producing the constitution and instating it. Really, does this seem like an unreasonable request? Rumsfeld is telling the government to start taking control so the West can leave... He is simply giving them the advice of "prevent the insurgency from destroying your government so we can leave"

This does not seem unreasonable and does not ring of a hidden hand moving the strings of the Iraqi government. Maybe they need a good kick in the ass to get moving and so they stay on track. Reality checks by friends should be seen as such.

Kaapeli
07-31-2005, 08:09 PM
When the CIA backed Mujihadeen in AFG were cutting the heads of Russian conscripts I don't remember them being called Terrorists!!... :roll:

Decapitating captives isn't a new concept in the ME or Africa,they were happening to the British during Kitcheners campaign in Sudan in the 1800's..........

The way terrorists use decapitation (by cutting the throat with a knife) is a barbaric terror tactic that unnerves us westerners.

But there's more to it than just that.
As a way of execution when done properly with a clean stroke of a sharp sword, axe or a guillotin it's no more brutal or painful than hanging, the electric chair or a firing squad (all these common in western nations). A clean quick death more often than not.

I have yet to see one of the videos where it is a clean cut, it is always a rough, jerky sawing motion, then a chopping at the end to separate the head from the spine, and in some cases you hear the last screeching sounds blare out of the larynx. From the videos from Chechnya to the Danny Pearl, to the beheadings in Iraq, never once did I see a quick death. Also equating the death penalty argument for someone convicted of murdering, rapping etc, to some killed for being a contractor working to rebuild power lines, or a reporter, etc seems to be an awkward spin on the beheading tactic used by terrorist.

I wonder if you understood anything I just said.
I very clearly made a disctinction between the terrorist beheadings, that are not clean nor painless at all, and execution beheadings that are common in many islamic countries as capital punishment.
At no point did I equate these two together.
I was making a point on how there are different styles of decapitation and that it can also be a very clean death. This referring mostly to some countries criticized for brutality because of the practice of decapitating convicted criminals.

SavikLion
07-31-2005, 08:11 PM
When the CIA backed Mujihadeen in AFG were cutting the heads of Russian conscripts I don't remember them being called Terrorists!!... :roll:

Decapitating captives isn't a new concept in the ME or Africa,they were happening to the British during Kitcheners campaign in Sudan in the 1800's..........

I think that if the public had known that it was occurring they would have felt that way. There wasn't the public knowledge back then as there is now. Also yeah it happened in historical times, you didn't see me saying its wrong when they do it but not when western cultures do it. We live in the here and now; your supposed to learn from history not use it as an excuse. Furthermore most people in the 1800's would not have applied words like terrorist and insurgent, it would have been rebels, or separatist. Also in Astan they were Russian soldiers who were being kidnapped not, contractors, humanitarian workers, though I feel that was not acceptable treatment.
Though the words, names, places and theories change is basically evil people committing evil acts, you can either make excuses for them, or call it like it is. Using current terms, Deliberately Beheading an unarmed human who is innocent without trail, simply because you hate them and it fits into your agenda is a terrorist act. Be you any nationality, color, religion, etc

SavikLion
07-31-2005, 08:25 PM
When the CIA backed Mujihadeen in AFG were cutting the heads of Russian conscripts I don't remember them being called Terrorists!!... :roll:

Decapitating captives isn't a new concept in the ME or Africa,they were happening to the British during Kitcheners campaign in Sudan in the 1800's..........

The way terrorists use decapitation (by cutting the throat with a knife) is a barbaric terror tactic that unnerves us westerners.

But there's more to it than just that.
As a way of execution when done properly with a clean stroke of a sharp sword, axe or a guillotin it's no more brutal or painful than hanging, the electric chair or a firing squad (all these common in western nations). A clean quick death more often than not.

I have yet to see one of the videos where it is a clean cut, it is always a rough, jerky sawing motion, then a chopping at the end to separate the head from the spine, and in some cases you hear the last screeching sounds blare out of the larynx. From the videos from Chechnya to the Danny Pearl, to the beheadings in Iraq, never once did I see a quick death. Also equating the death penalty argument for someone convicted of murdering, rapping etc, to some killed for being a contractor working to rebuild power lines, or a reporter, etc seems to be an awkward spin on the beheading tactic used by terrorist.

I wonder if you understood anything I just said.
I very clearly made a disctinction between the terrorist beheadings, that are not clean nor painless at all, and execution beheadings that are common in many islamic countries as capital punishment.
At no point did I equate these two together.
I was making a point on how there are different styles of decapitation and that it can also be a very clean death. This referring mostly to some countries criticized for brutality because of the practice of decapitating convicted criminals.

I understood what you were saying, and yes as a punishment so long as the guy hits his mark its probably no different. I think my point is the terrorist are not applying the proper head chopping methods, so what is the point in bringing it up. They are deliberately making it painful. So bringing the proper use of it compared to western methods of capitals punishment doesn't seem to appy here. We are disscussing terrorist versus insurgence not form of capital punishment compared by region of the globe. But I get where you are coming from as a response to argyll post of the historical use of decapitation. No disrespect intended I just thought it was an unusual break off of the subject.

Mailman
08-01-2005, 05:04 AM
I would not accept the term terrorist for the case with the policestation, police are a valid military target.

/C - nitpicking

This is terrorism regardless of how you want to look at it. The terrorist is deliberately attacking a CIVILIAN institution...that was created by a Government elected BY THE PEOPLE and who employ civilians.

They ARE NOT attacking a military target. They are trying to seperate the police from the people and scare off people from joining the police forces through the use of indiscriminate terror tactics.

Whether you like to admit it or not the police are not a military target and no amount of justification can be used to condone attacks on the police.

Mailman

Argyll
08-01-2005, 05:17 AM
Deliberately Beheading an unarmed human who is innocent without trail,

What makes you think these guys were not tried by their captives,and found guilty?

I know exactly where you're coming from with all of this,I agree mostly,with that in mind I'm pointing out to you,that the beheadings isn't something new,it's hundreds of ,if not thousands of years old,spare me this "sharp knife ****,you think the Mujihadeen cared whether their blade was Wilkinson sword sharp,before carrying out their deed?

The difference between then and now is the role modern technology is available to video record and distribute freely and quicker,and the media is being used as a very effective weapon,and also that society has changed,during the Soviet Invasion,the Russians were seen as the enemy,so when their soldiers suffered the same fate as those in Iraq today,the Western World didn't give a toss......back in those days the Muslims were the good guys!!

Executions invoving decapitation were also carried out by the Muslim KLA in Kosovo during the Bosnian,like I've sai before,it's not something just dreamt up to make the war in Iraq more justifiable,to show how barbaric the enemy is......Warfare is riddled with savage acts,that the General public either are not aware of ,or are just not interested in!!

sp2c
08-01-2005, 07:13 AM
I think it's about 'indiscriminate killing'

for instance detonating a bomb under a military convoy makes you a rebel or insurgent or whatever while leaving that same bomb on that same spot with a timed trigger makes you a terrorist

not really but I think it's close

Atlantic Friend
08-01-2005, 08:10 AM
Iraq: When Are Terrorists Really Insurgents?

Historical answer : when they stick to attacking opposing military and paramilitary forcves.

Cynical answer : when and only when they fight our enemies.