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army cadet_ngcsu
01-14-2004, 01:40 PM
Tests Show No Agent in Iraq Mortar Shells
21 minutes ago

By MATTHEW ROSENBERG, Associated Press Writer

CAMP EDEN, Iraq - U.S. tests on mortar shells found in Iraq (news - web sites) and suspected of containing blister agents have turned up negative, though further tests will be conducted, a Danish army spokesman said Wednesday.


AP Photo




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The 36 shells, discovered last week by Danish troops, are believed to be from the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war.


Four initial tests by British and Danish experts came up positive for blister agents, Danish spokesman, Capt. Kim Vibe Michelsen, told The Associated Press.


But later tests by U.S. experts from the Iraq Survey Group on five of the shells have shown no trace of chemical weapons, the Danish military said.


However, more tests are needed, and the results will be sent to the Idaho National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory, the military said in a statement.


A U.S. official said the tests suggest the munitions may not contain blister agents, as initial field tests had indicated.


The official, speaking on condition of anonimity, said that the test results aren't definitive, but "it seems to be turning away from being a blister agent." The official said there are chemicals associated with certain munitions, such as phospohrous, that can produce false positives.


Initial tests by troops in the field are designed to favor a positive reading, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers. More sophisticated tests are often necessary.


"The Iraqi Survey Group has never encountered this type of shells before," the Danish military said. "They will therefore take a shell for closer investigation," including a look into why the four initial tests gave a positive result.


Before invading Iraq, the United States said Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime had stockpiles of mustard gas, a World War I-era blister agent that is stored in liquid form. The chemical burns skin, eyes and lungs.


U.S. intelligence officials also claimed Iraq had failed to destroy stocks of sarin, cyclosarin and VX in violation of U.N. resolutions. So far, however, no such materials have been found nine months after the collapse of Saddam's regime.


The Danish troops initially found 36 shells, exposed by rain, in the ground outside a village near Qurnah on Friday. The Danish army's Camp Eden is near Qurnah.


"This was a stash. They were stacked and ordered and wrapped in plastic," Michelsen said, adding they must have been buried 10 or more years ago.


Michelsen said the 120mm shells, which have no markings indicating the country of manufacture, "don't look like any known" mortars in the Iraqi arsenal.


Michelsen said the Danes have unearthed 50 shells so far and at least 50 more are believed still buried. Villagers told the troops that they had found about 400 or more some years ago and threw them in the Tigris River, Michelsen said.


The flat, muddy terrain where they were found was the scene of intense fighting during the Iran-Iraq war. The villagers told the Danes that one bloody battle was fought in the area in 1984 for seven days.


The villagers said they fled the area and returned after the battle to find all their cattle dead and the area littered with human bodies, Michelsen said. He quoted the villagers as saying that none of the dead bore gunshot wounds, but all were bleeding from the mouth and nose.





"This is a clear indication of chemical weapons use," he said.

He said the villagers have also spoken of people coughing blood, and livestock getting sick and bleeding from the mouth. But the time frame for the reported sickness is not clear.

Since the war ended last year, the U.S.-led coalition has found several caches that tested positive for mustard gas but later turned out to contain missile fuel or other chemicals.

Other discoveries early in the U.S.-led occupation turned out to be old caches that already had been tagged by U.N. inspectors and were scheduled for destruction.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=5&u=/ap/20040114/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_mortar_shells

army cadet_ngcsu
01-14-2004, 01:42 PM
Unfortunate for the US and its allies...

usa320
01-14-2004, 03:06 PM
Michelsen said the Danes have unearthed 50 shells so far and at least 50 more are believed still buried. Villagers told the troops that they had found about 400 or more some years ago and threw them in the Tigris River, Michelsen said.


They should look into that. Im sure they are.

Eviscerator
01-14-2004, 03:50 PM
I'm not sure how this is in any way conclusive, four tests have proved positive and this one says it 'may not' contain blister agents, i find it hard to believe that if there were no chemical agents in the shells it would fool four different tests into giving a positive result, jumping to the conclusion that the whole batch is void of chemical agents seems silly, best to wait until more tests have been done to get a clear result either way...

Argyll
01-14-2004, 04:05 PM
Stop being a idealist evicerator,and think about this!
You are naive to believe they'd only test 1 shell?.............wake up and smell the coffee!!

Eviscerator
01-14-2004, 04:12 PM
Stop being a idealist evicerator,and think about this!
You are naive to believe they'd only test 1 shell?.............wake up and smell the coffee!!

I think it's naive to believe there are no chemical agents in any of the shells as the topic states, how do you explain four positive results?

Argyll
01-14-2004, 04:37 PM
Because a lot of stuff fouund during the ground war revealed traces of Chemicals and were thought to be WMD based only for further tests to reveal nothing related to WMD at all.
I'm not interested in 4 positives I'm interested in 100% out odf 100%,and in shells that were ready to use,just like Tony Blairs claim.
These shells are pretty insignificant as far as WMD claims go,there were hundreds of these stockpiles waiting to be destroyed all over Iraq,so more of these will turn up.
I want to know where the VX ,and Sarin/Tabin is,I want to know where all the battleready munitions are that posed a clear and present danger.
Do you really think Saddam is the only one who knows where this stuff is supposed to be?More likely he's the only one who doesn't know,what about Dr Germ,and the Female Bio Weapons expert who are in custody,if the CIA are getting Saddam to talk,then you can bet your bottom dollar they would talk too,why have they never said ...gimme amnesty and $1million and I'll take you to my labs?........maybe because they fed Saddam info he wanted to hear?
I like many others want to find WMD's in Iraq,but if intelligence was good enough to say he had them,then I'm sure it was good enough to know he was burying them too?

Trident-za
01-14-2004, 04:49 PM
I'm with Argyll on this one. I would need a bit more than a few seriously crappy mortar bombs from the 1980's to convince me that Iraq was a serious threat to anyone other than themselves and close neighbours.

This doesn't mean I think the world isn't a better place without Saddam. I'm just not convinced about the WMD side of things.

He219
01-14-2004, 04:50 PM
...just like Tony Blairs claim....
I want to know where the VX ,and Sarin/Tabin is,I want to know where all the battleready munitions are that posed a clear and present danger....

Would that be MI6's claim using that stutendt's thesis? ;)
We all wan't to know the disposition of those weapons. The problem was that there was no accountability other than what Saddam said...


...Do you really think Saddam is the only one who knows where this stuff is supposed to be?More likely he's the only one who doesn't know,what about Dr Germ,and the Female Bio Weapons expert who are in custody,if the CIA are getting Saddam to talk,then you can bet your bottom dollar they would talk too,why have they never said ...gimme amnesty and $1million and I'll take you to my labs?........maybe because they fed Saddam info he wanted to hear?
And fed the West what they wanted to hear....


...I like many others want to find WMD's in Iraq,but if intelligence was good enough to say he had them,then I'm sure it was good enough to know he was burying them too?
It would be foolish to think that he didn't have them while sending troops in to depose his regieme....

Vance
01-14-2004, 04:59 PM
Wait, this is good news, because as mustamo and others have said, 15 year old mortar shells don't mean crap, right? p-)

Argyll
01-14-2004, 05:05 PM
I agree there HE219,
The whole of the Western Intelligence sucked big time on this one!
I just wonder if this whole WMD thing was a giant bluff to fool his neighbours into thinking he could "wipe them out" in the blink of an eye like he did the Kurds?
Nobody has seen these chemicals other than certain individuals and they're all in captivity,they know they're finished,many are facing death,they have nothing to lose in opening up,and getting to the bottom of this altogether.

I'm inclined to believe the WMD issue was a mere add on to the Bush administartions wish to get rid of Saddam Hussein,but trying to persuade congress without having the WMD claims would be a stalling point.
I honestly don't know,there was so much made of this,and yet nothing of real importance has been found..........surely the much vaunted CIA and MI6 would have had cast iron proof to show the world ?

I also disagree with this time will tell,this stuff was supposedly ready to go,the inspectors have had complete and unfettered access to ALL of Iraq and the yield so far has been zero,I'm not interested in a 5 year quest to find ****!
I'd think the men in grey would "plant" something soon to get the media off their backs,I'm surprissed this has not happened already!! ;)

Eviscerator
01-14-2004, 05:17 PM
It may annoy you even more to know that some Japanese chemical weapons from WW2 were recently found in China, some 50-odd years since they were buried. I wonder if you would be willing to wait another 50 years for confirmation of Iraq's chemical weapons?

Out of curiosity, did the UN inspectors find anything relating to NBC weapons post '91? Or did they waddle around the country for 7 years before getting tired and going home?

He219
01-14-2004, 05:39 PM
I just wonder if this whole WMD thing was a giant bluff to fool his neighbours into thinking he could "wipe them out" in the blink of an eye like he did the Kurds?
Exactly! That's how tyrants, dictators and strongman stay in power. Fear is used to maintain control and WMDs would certainly be part of that. That's also where the testing and production of the Al Samoud missiles came in. They certainly weren't there for disarmament purposes.


Nobody has seen these chemicals other than certain individuals and they're all in captivity,they know they're finished,many are facing death,they have nothing to lose in opening up,and getting to the bottom of this altogether.
The UN certainly seemed to have some count on them....


I'm inclined to believe the WMD issue was a mere add on to the Bush administartions wish to get rid of Saddam Hussein,but trying to persuade congress without having the WMD claims would be a stalling point.
This is the key part. After screwing around for 12 years on the WMD issue in Iraq with no evidence toward their disposition as required under the GW1 peace accords, knowledge that they had previously been used, quantities of WMD's documented by international observers, UN weapons' inspectors having been thrown out and Coalition aircraft constantly targeted while protecting indigenous Iraqi ethnic populations, Saddam HAD TO GO. WMDs were just a small part in the overall equation of disinformation and hostility shown throughout Saddam's Tenure. Where was there good faith?


I honestly don't know,there was so much made of this,and yet nothing of real importance has been found..........surely the much vaunted CIA and MI6 would have had cast iron proof to show the world ?
Of real importance is the finding of countless victims of Saddam's Regieme buried throughout Iraq and the fact that the new Iraq will be better of than it was. The post WWII period was also worse for civilians than the war itself.


I also disagree with this time will tell,this stuff was supposedly ready to go,the inspectors have had complete and unfettered access to ALL of Iraq and the yield so far has been zero,I'm not interested in a 5 year quest to find ****!
That time will tell stuff is about the naysayers not believing the cause for Removing Saddam. UN inspectors didn't have unfettered access, Saddam made sure things were left the way he wanted them...


I'd think the men in grey would "plant" something soon to get the media off their backs,I'm surprissed this has not happened already!! ;)
That would just play into the hands of the naysayers looking for something to fault.
:D

Argyll
01-14-2004, 06:14 PM
I didn't mean the UN inspectors there HE219 I meant the ones there right now!!
The thing is HE219 the WMD issue WAS the MAIN point for sending British troops to war in Iraq,Not a regime change,there was no chance in hell that Government would send UK trrops to fight if it were not down to this BS claim about 40 mins.

Re the victims of his Regime
We stood idly by and let him slaughter his people,we the West have bllod on our hands,we knew fine waht he was doing ,and chose to arm him,support him,and appease him,we let it all go,and now after 40 years we're supposed to have a concious?I feel sorry for the Iraqi people,George Bush Snr was responsible for a lot of these mass graves when he asked the Kurds and the Shi's to rise up in 91 and when they did he withdrew support and signed their death warrants.
We could've at ANYTIME in the last 12 years changed his Regime,but we didn't,that gave him 12 years of continued persecution of the people of Iraq,12 years of creaming the State,12 years of Murder Rape and Torture of 10's of 1000's ,so who also guilty here?

mustamato
01-14-2004, 06:46 PM
http://tietokannat.mil.fi/data/219/3

76 mm live anti-aircraft grenade recently found in Helsinki, a whole city block had to be evacuated. And the last time those were fired over Helsinki were 1944 against Soviet bomberplanes. So yeah, sometimes grenades are just forgotten somewhere. As was the case with those Iraqi phospohrous grenades. And they will end up being found for the next 50-60 years without doubt.

Seoulstriker
01-14-2004, 07:56 PM
there are rumors from syrians that saddam moved his WMD there prior to the war. something to think about...

mustamato
01-14-2004, 07:58 PM
there are rumors from syrians that saddam moved his WMD there prior to the war. something to think about...

HAHAHAHAHA.

The worst bull**** I´ve ever heard. You mean "rumours" from the CIA?

usa320
01-14-2004, 08:10 PM
I want to know where the VX ,and Sarin/Tabin is,

IN due time, in due time.

Imagine searching something the size of california for something the size of a anywhere between a 50 gal drum and a grapefruit.

I do agree that we should however look outside iraq for the WMD's... This news out of the Iranian border regions is quite disconcerting, and it does concur with pre-war intelligence regarding large convoys of trucks moving at weapons labs.