Turks, French clash over Cyprus as EU talks loom

[achilles]

AP
French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy, pictured in Paris earlier this week, yesterday called Turkey’s refusal to recognize EU member Cyprus ‘not acceptable.’

By Gareth Jones - *******

ANKARA - Turkey and France clashed yesterday over whether Ankara should recognize Cyprus, a European Union member, before it begins its own EU entry talks on October 3.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey could not accept any new conditions for opening the talks and said he had been upset by comments from France that Ankara must first accept the internationally recognized Greek-Cypriot government.

“It is out of the question for us to discuss or consider any new conditions with regard to October 3,” Erdogan told reporters in televised comments.

“We are saddened by the statements of the French prime minister and of President (Jacques) Chirac,” he added.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said on Tuesday it was “inconceivable” that Turkey start talks with the EU without recognizing one of its 25 member states, though he did not say Paris would deploy its veto.

Chirac has not publicly commented on Turkey’s EU talks this week, but the French daily Le Figaro, quoting unnamed ministers, reported that the president had told a cabinet meeting he agreed with his prime minister.

Chirac’s office declined to comment on the report. Chirac has traditionally backed Turkey’s EU bid but now faces growing opposition among French voters to admitting the large, relatively poor, mainly Muslim country into the wealthy bloc.

Pressure

Maintaining pressure on Ankara, French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy repeated Villepin’s criticism yesterday.

“Not wanting to recognize one country in the Union while wanting to join, that’s not acceptable,” Douste-Blazy told Le Monde newspaper in an interview.

“We would like there to be an extensive discussion on this question within the EU.”

Ankara recognizes only a breakaway Turkish-Cypriot enclave in the north of Cyprus.

France can block the start of talks — as can Cyprus — as the 25 EU states must approve a negotiating mandate unanimously before they can begin. Villepin said France would decide its position after talks among EU foreign ministers in September.

Turkey cleared the last formal hurdle to the start of its entry talks last Friday by signing a protocol extending its customs union to new EU members, including Cyprus.

But Ankara also issued a declaration making clear the signing did not mean a change in its stance over the island, whose Greek-Cypriot government is viewed in Brussels as the sole legitimate authority.

Turkey says recognition can come only after a comprehensive peace settlement on the Mediterranean island.

Ankara believes it has done all it can reasonably be expected to do on Cyprus by backing a UN-brokered peace deal last year which Turkish Cypriots also endorsed in a referendum. The plan was scuppered by the Greek Cypriots.

Despite the latest French comments, Erdogan said he was confident Turkey would begin entry talks on schedule.

“We will start the negotiations on October 3. We think only of the negotiations,” Erdogan said.

The talks are expected to last many years and Turkey is not seen as joining the EU before 2015 at the earliest.
http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_world_1199358_05/08/2005_152528

This is how the game should be played...its either Europe's way or the highway baby! woot

p-)

[achilles]

Well done France, it was about time for someone to put some serious pressures on the European wannabes. Other countries follow suit...

Europeans shift on Turkey
French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who said Tuesday that Ankara should recognize Cyprus before it begins its own EU accession talks on October 3, has been joined by other European officials expressing similar sentiments.

Austrian politicians and Germany’s Christian Democrats (CDU) have echoed his views, while French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy yesterday repeated Villepin’s criticism, indicating a more general shift of policy toward Ankara.
The European turnabout does not derive from a re-evaluation of the Cyprus issue. The change appears, rather, to stem from the constitutional debacle in the French and Dutch referendums. Voters in the two Western nations signaled their deep disillusionment with the policies of European leaders. The question of Turkey’s EU membership — a highly controversial one in the eyes of European publics — is a good example of how European elites have turned a deaf ear to their electorates. The governments are now adjusting their course, as it were, and this inevitably also has an impact on Turkey’s aspirations.

Independent of any domestic political concerns in France or Germany, there is little doubt that Villepin’s criticism is in keeping with international law; his is also one of the few voices seeking to rescue EU credibility on the issue. As the French foreign minister put it yesterday, “Not wanting to recognize one country in the Union while wanting to join, that’s not acceptable.”

Recognition of existing members is a fundamental precondition that the EU could not afford to ignore without undermining its political and legal status.

Ongoing political developments can become a catalyst, making Ankara realize that it cannot turn its back on fundamental and self-evident conditions.

Circumstances are moving in a positive direction. Greece must be cautious yet also decisive. It must exploit the current juncture to get the maximum for Cyprus without risking tension over the Aegean. Greek governments have backed Turkey’s EU ambitions in the hope that Ankara will one day comply with the EU’s body of law, the acquis communautaire. Otherwise, Turkish membership will be pointless and potentially harmful. Caution must not be confused with inactivity. A Cyprus peace settlement and Turkish respect for international law will not come without Greek diplomatic pressure

[Atlantic Friend]

This is how the game should be played...its either Europe's way or the highway baby! woot

p-)


It's a bit like Red China with Taiwan...

On a lighter note, this could lead to some funny international imbroglios.

Italy will no longer acknowledge France's existence because we are her "Gallo-Roman breakaway provinces".

France does not acknowledge Belgium because they are our "Napoleonic breakaway provinces".

The UK does not recognize their "American breakaway provinces" nor their "Irish breakaway provinces".

Norway doesn't acknowkledge the United States' existence because they are "Erik the Red's breakaway provinces"

Germany doesn't acknowledge most of Western countries because we all are "Germanic tribes breakaway provinces"

[achilles]

This is how the game should be played...its either Europe's way or the highway baby! woot

p-)


It's a bit like Red China with Taiwan...

On a lighter note, this could lead to some funny international imbroglios.

Italy will no longer acknowledge France's existence because we are her "Gallo-Roman breakaway provinces".

France does not acknowledge Belgium because they are our "Napoleonic breakaway provinces".

The UK does not recognize their "American breakaway provinces" nor their "Irish breakaway provinces".

Norway doesn't acknowkledge the United States' existence because they are "Erik the Red's breakaway provinces"

Germany doesn't acknowledge most of Western countries because we all are "Germanic tribes breakaway provinces"

True but this is just European 'romance', so i dont think policies will be based on the things you mentioned above. Thankfully, Europe now seems to be able to put certain things behind her. Of course i am not discounting the possibility of tension among European states in the future.

[Clearday-TRForce]

same film around...Aliens invade World... :lol:

[Atlantic Friend]

True but this is just European 'romance', so i dont think policies will be based on the things you mentioned above. Thankfully, Europe now seems to be able to put certain things behind her. Of course i am not discounting the possibility of tension among European states in the future.

Of course this was not meant to be realistic ! I just really like to stretch things up to their "Monty Python Point".

[Clearday-TRForce]

Financial Times



French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin's remarks that Turkey cannot begin accession talks with the European Union unless it recognizes the Greek Cypriot administration are motivated by what looks like “political opportunism” tailored for the campaign to succeed Jacques Chirac as French president, the Financial Times said in an editorial comment yesterday.

“There is a respectable debate to be had about Turkey and the EU. Mr. de Villepin's intervention is not part of it,” said the respected British daily of the French prime minister's remarks earlier this week.

Turkey signed a protocol last week to extend its customs union deal with the EU to the 10 new members of the bloc, including Greek Cyprus, but said in a declaration attached to it that this does not mean recognition of the Greek Cypriot administration.

De Villepin said on Tuesday that refusing to recognize an EU member state while preparing to open accession talks with the bloc was inconceivable.

The Financial Times editorial said Ankara's position was reasonable because, in the first place, this was the same position that the EU leaders accepted at their summit in December, which set Oct. 3 as the date for starting entry talks.

“Second, it was the Greek Cypriots who rejected last year's United Nations compromise plan to reunify Cyprus while Ankara persuaded Turkish Cypriots to accept it.

Third, whatever the eventual fate of Turkey's European ambitions, Ankara has every right to expect the EU to honor its commitments,” said the newspaper. “That includes not moving the goalposts just as accession negotiations are supposed to start.”

The daily also said that the EU decision to accept Greek Cyprus as a member irrespective of the outcome of the U.N.-led reunification process was a “huge blunder.”

“While the government of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was straining every muscle to get Turkey's powerful military to stop underwriting Turkish Cypriot intransigence, Brussels, in effect, licensed Greek Cypriot obduracy and scuppered the best chance to end the conflict,” it said.

The daily also warned, “forcing the Cyprus issue, against a background of hostility to Turkish entry in Germany, France and Austria, would be a deal-breaker for Ankara.”






regards.

[Clearday-TRForce]

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, a staunch supporter of Turkey's bid to join the European Union, urged German voters not to be misled by his rivals' claims that Turkish membership was a threat that should be prevented.

Schroeder, who looks set to leave his post to his conservative challenger Angela Merkel in September elections, said Turkey's membership would have positive effects on Europe's security, emphasizing that a Turkey that is not radical Islamist would be a positive asset for the continent.

“Please don't be misled by those who present Turkey as a threat and try to scare you,” Schroeder was quoted as saying during an election campaign trip to Hamburg by NTV.

Schroeder said Turkey's entry into the EU would offer the bloc a “historic opportunity” to boost its capacity to deal with sensitive problems in volatile regions, such as Iran's nuclear ambitions and instability in the southern Caucasus.

“Europe will regret if it wastes this historic opportunity,” he said.


-AP




regards.

[achilles]

True but this is just European 'romance', so i dont think policies will be based on the things you mentioned above. Thankfully, Europe now seems to be able to put certain things behind her. Of course i am not discounting the possibility of tension among European states in the future.

Of course this was not meant to be realistic ! I just really like to stretch things up to their "Monty Python Point".

:lol: cool...that makes a point on its own

[Kontra1]

Great news! woot

Turkey will NEVER accept such thing and this will go to permanent division of the island(TAKSIM)
...and end of this EU BS...all goes as planned, I hope more countries join france with such demand.

woot

Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

Kontra kardesim gelmis...nerdeydin bunca zamandir yahu,tatil mi,izin mi???;)



hi body...

[Kontra1]

Kontra kardesim gelmis...nerdeydin bunca zamandir yahu,tatil mi,izin mi???;)



hi body...

Saol kardes...bir isim cikmisti memlekette ;)

[roland]

That's a pretext: France has played with Turkey long enough: now it's a NO.
If Turkey don't understand this time there would be an other condition even less acceptable for Turkey. Until this silly discussion, that already lasted too long, get closed.
I see no way how France would let Turkey enter the EU. Or somebody find for me a good reason to let enter a competitor while it's so easy to block him.
Turkey in the EU is simply not French interest: Turkey is very populated, and has a "superpower mentality" as it's what they were in most of there history. In short: a pain.
I already find that Franc's power in the EU is not big enough, so giving Turkey even more power than what we have would be completely stupid.
Turkey's chances a near 0%, better get over it and speak of something else.
imho.

[Clearday-TRForce]

That's a pretext: France has played with Turkey long enough: now it's a NO.
If Turkey don't understand this time there would be an other condition even less acceptable for Turkey. Until this silly discussion, that already lasted too long, get closed.
I see no way how France would let Turkey enter the EU. Or somebody find for me a good reason to let enter a competitor while it's so easy to block him.
Turkey in the EU is simply not French interest: Turkey is very populated, and has a "superpower mentality" as it's what they were in most of there history. In short: a pain.
I already find that Franc's power in the EU is not big enough, so giving Turkey even more power than what we have would be completely stupid.
Turkey's chances a near 0%, better get over it and speak of something else.
imho.

europe does not consist of france, there are lots of countries...who cares u? a real pain is u, not us, look at ur wars there..."no fight" just you say "hello germans" hello brits"...this s paris... :lol:

[AROUETLJ]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.


Cyprus? what Cyprus? do you mean South Cyprus? yeah you are right...you have taken a country who rejects UN solutions in the island. ;)

[Freibier]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.
x2

[SHAM]

Its probably a safe bet that the other EU countries agree with france entirely, just are not so vocal about it YET, as they dont need to be as they are politely toying with turkey for the next 10 years.

[Sharp]

good thing... and bad politicals.
try to do a "better" europe, other than try to integrate a maximum of countrys and let them "illusions".

[Nikitaras]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.


Cyprus? what Cyprus? do you mean South Cyprus? yeah you are right...you have taken a country who rejects UN solutions in the island. ;)

No, Cyprus the EU member.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.


Cyprus? what Cyprus? do you mean South Cyprus? yeah you are right...you have taken a country who rejects UN solutions in the island. ;)

No, Cyprus the EU member.

this s ur view...Not Turks.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Its probably a safe bet that the other EU countries agree with france entirely, just are not so vocal about it YET, as they dont need to be as they are politely toying with turkey for the next 10 years.

and gain money. :lol: they are toying with themselves.the thing that u said has got some dimensions beyond ur imagination of situations.

[roland]

europe does not consist of france, there are lots of countries...who cares u? a real pain is u, not us, look at ur wars there..."no fight" just you say "hello germans" hello brits"...this s paris... :lol:

Well, let me explain it to you with simple words:
France says NO => the EU has no choice but to say NO either => Turkey stays out.

The fact that you care France or not has absolutely no importance. Even a monkey can understand that. Can you ?

Now, as usual, other countries can hide behind France and not say they didn't want Turkey in the EU either. That's fine I think rational people in Turkey will understand that it would be stupid for France to let Turkey enter. Then, as usual, only morons will hate France but we get use to it and we don't care.

About the "no fight" and "hello" part of your post you'd better keep your "expertise" on history for the fvckfrance.com forum. That's the last place where it still sells. Here you're out-of-date man.

[AROUETLJ]

Cyprus? what Cyprus?

I mean the Cyprus which everybody except Turkey recognizes, not the one recognized by nobody except Turkey.

The UN plan had the noble aim of re-uniting the island, but at the end of the day it awards an illegal act of invasion. I'm sorry for the Turkish Cypriots who were in favour of the plan, because they're losing out on EU benefits, but if I were a Cypriot I'd probably have voted against it too.

Having said that, Turkey could have won the diplomatic battle by recognizing Cyprus (the South, that is) before the vote took place. Then the onus would have been on the Cypriot government to try to go along with a solution. But it seems that Turkey is inflexible on this point.

Turkey managed to get away with it these last 30 years because it is a NATO member and an ally of the "West". It's now waking up to the fact that the EU is not NATO.

[Clearday-TRForce]

europe does not consist of france, there are lots of countries...who cares u? a real pain is u, not us, look at ur wars there..."no fight" just you say "hello germans" hello brits"...this s paris... :lol:

Well, let me explain it to you with simple words:
France says NO => the EU has no choice but to say NO either => Turkey stays out.

The fact that you care France or not has absolutely no importance. Even a monkey can understand that. Can you ?

Now, as usual, other countries can hide behind France and not say they didn't want Turkey in the EU either. That's fine I think rational people in Turkey will understand that it would be stupid for France to let Turkey enter. Then, as usual, only morons will hate France but we get use to it and we don't care.

About the "no fight" and "hello" part of your post you'd better keep your "expertise" on history for the fvckfrance.com forum. That's the last place where it still sells. Here you're out-of-date man.


very friendly conversation among us,especially when u use "monkey" and other animal names here,it doubles and takes huge value behalf on you. :lol: Rational people like me can understand that Turkish people hasnt got enough desire to join in your quickbroken EU. So you are good,and we are fine...I think u are out-of-date man who do not have enough infos about us and importance.:)


regards.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Cyprus? what Cyprus?

I mean the Cyprus which everybody except Turkey recognizes, not the one recognized by nobody except Turkey.

The UN plan had the noble aim of re-uniting the island, but at the end of the day it awards an illegal act of invasion. I'm sorry for the Turkish Cypriots who were in favour of the plan, because they're losing out on EU benefits, but if I were a Cypriot I'd probably have voted against it too.

Having said that, Turkey could have won the diplomatic battle by recognizing Cyprus (the South, that is) before the vote took place. Then the onus would have been on the Cypriot government to try to go along with a solution. But it seems that Turkey is inflexible on this point.

Turkey managed to get away with it these last 30 years because it is a NATO member and an ally of the "West". It's now waking up to the fact that the EU is not NATO.


EU is not NATO, but NATO is part of modern world and western values, and EU is a part of same values,maybe it gives u enough hint to think it twice. ;)

[AROUETLJ]

I didn't quite understand your last phrase (unless you meant that EU membership is not important since you're already a NATO member, in which case I fail to understand your governments pro-EU membership position), but perhaps I could put it this way so you understand: Unlike NATO, the EU is not a marriage of convenience.

And anyway, the original topic of this thread was recognition of Cyprus by the EU. So let me put this scenario before you.

It's 2010 and Turkey is an EU member (as you predict). Turkey signs the EU accession treaty. Among the signatories is a certain country called Cyprus. What does Turkey do? Or consider this scenario: At some future date, Cyprus hold the EU presidency. What does Turkey do? And what if it's Turkey which holds the EU presidency? Does Turkey receive members of the Cypriot government during meetings? Does organize Turkey EU summits minus Cyprus?

You see, Turkey's current position is incompatible not just with EU principles, but even with the day to day administrative process in the EU. So far you managed to get along within NATO because Cyprus is not a NATO member, but now you're trying to get into the EU and this problem has come up. The sooner you deal with it, the better.
(When I say "you", I mean the Turkish government of course, not you personally.)

[Nikitaras]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.


Cyprus? what Cyprus? do you mean South Cyprus? yeah you are right...you have taken a country who rejects UN solutions in the island. ;)

No, Cyprus the EU member.

this s ur view...Not Turks.

Once again No, This is the WORLD's view. Turkey's view is disassociated with the reality of the situation.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.


Cyprus? what Cyprus? do you mean South Cyprus? yeah you are right...you have taken a country who rejects UN solutions in the island. ;)

No, Cyprus the EU member.

this s ur view...Not Turks.

Once again No, This is the WORLD's view. Turkey's view is disassociated with the reality of the situation.


we know, but noone dares to change our view...dont you?

[Clearday-TRForce]

I didn't quite understand your last phrase (unless you meant that EU membership is not important since you're already a NATO member, in which case I fail to understand your governments pro-EU membership position), but perhaps I could put it this way so you understand: Unlike NATO, the EU is not a marriage of convenience.

And anyway, the original topic of this thread was recognition of Cyprus by the EU. So let me put this scenario before you.

It's 2010 and Turkey is an EU member (as you predict). Turkey signs the EU accession treaty. Among the signatories is a certain country called Cyprus. What does Turkey do? Or consider this scenario: At some future date, Cyprus hold the EU presidency. What does Turkey do? And what if it's Turkey which holds the EU presidency? Does Turkey receive members of the Cypriot government during meetings? Does organize Turkey EU summits minus Cyprus?

You see, Turkey's current position is incompatible not just with EU principles, but even with the day to day administrative process in the EU. So far you managed to get along within NATO because Cyprus is not a NATO member, but now you're trying to get into the EU and this problem has come up. The sooner you deal with it, the better.
(When I say "you", I mean the Turkish government of course, not you personally.)


Turkey s current position s compatible with international laws and totally with EU. It s so clear for us, why EU has taken South Cyprus while all disputes still same? we will enter if international community and island solves this promlem. There was a solution in front of world by United Nations plan. They have rejected it,Turks side accepted it,so who is the side that dont wanna peace in the island? what s ur view about them?
We will enter or not.The Cyprus issue s different issue for United Nations and European Union members.On the other side, the fair and right article from financial times express it well. I would like you to read it above please.



regards

[Nikitaras]

I don't know why this issue is even up for discussion. What will Turkey do when it joins the EU (since it's so certain that it will)? Talk to 26 countries and ignore Cyprus? Cyprus is an EU member and if Turkey wants to join, Rule Zero is the requirement for diplomatic relations with ALL countries in the EU, never mind human rights and economic development. This is common sense we're talking about.


Cyprus? what Cyprus? do you mean South Cyprus? yeah you are right...you have taken a country who rejects UN solutions in the island. ;)

No, Cyprus the EU member.

this s ur view...Not Turks.

Once again No, This is the WORLD's view. Turkey's view is disassociated with the reality of the situation.


we know, but noone dares to change our view...dont you?

The position of your government on this matter is untenable. It simply defies all logic and diplomatic common sense. There is no way an aspiring applicant to an organization can decide not to recognize an established member of said union. The Turkish governments position is simply asinine and is comparible to a five year old throwing a hissy fit.

[roland]

So you are good,and we are fine...I think u are out-of-date man who do not have enough infos about us and importance.:)


Well if Turkey was insignifiant I think there would be no problem to let her enter in the EU. Turkey is NOT insignifiant that"s all the problem.
I've said Turkey has a great power mentality as it's what you were most of your history, now I say Turkey is very powerfull, also I said stop playing with Turkey, that's not nice and I removed your illusion so you don't get fooled by our b@stard politicians: man you should thanks me instead of trying to hurt me insulting France.

[Belrick]

Bloody well said Nikitaras.
Turkey is a has been but hasnt woken up to that fact yet.

[Nikitaras]

I didn't quite understand your last phrase (unless you meant that EU membership is not important since you're already a NATO member, in which case I fail to understand your governments pro-EU membership position), but perhaps I could put it this way so you understand: Unlike NATO, the EU is not a marriage of convenience.

And anyway, the original topic of this thread was recognition of Cyprus by the EU. So let me put this scenario before you.

It's 2010 and Turkey is an EU member (as you predict). Turkey signs the EU accession treaty. Among the signatories is a certain country called Cyprus. What does Turkey do? Or consider this scenario: At some future date, Cyprus hold the EU presidency. What does Turkey do? And what if it's Turkey which holds the EU presidency? Does Turkey receive members of the Cypriot government during meetings? Does organize Turkey EU summits minus Cyprus?

You see, Turkey's current position is incompatible not just with EU principles, but even with the day to day administrative process in the EU. So far you managed to get along within NATO because Cyprus is not a NATO member, but now you're trying to get into the EU and this problem has come up. The sooner you deal with it, the better.
(When I say "you", I mean the Turkish government of course, not you personally.)


Turkey s current position s compatible with international laws and totally with EU. It s so clear for us, why EU has taken South Cyprus while all disputes still same? we will enter if international community and island solves this promlem. There was a solution in front of world by United Nations plan. They have rejected it,Turks side accepted it,so who is the side that dont wanna peace in the island? what s ur view about them?
We will enter or not.The Cyprus issue s different issue for United Nations and European Union members.On the other side, the fair and right article from financial times express it well. I would like you to read it above please.



regards

The Annan Plan was sewverely flawed in areas of right of return and property rights, Turkish military withdrawl, and disproportionate representation in the government just to name a few.

[Kontra1]

Cyprus? what Cyprus?

I mean the Cyprus which everybody except Turkey recognizes, not the one recognized by nobody except Turkey.

The UN plan had the noble aim of re-uniting the island, but at the end of the day it awards an illegal act of invasion. I'm sorry for the Turkish Cypriots who were in favour of the plan, because they're losing out on EU benefits, but if I were a Cypriot I'd probably have voted against it too.

Having said that, Turkey could have won the diplomatic battle by recognizing Cyprus (the South, that is) before the vote took place. Then the onus would have been on the Cypriot government to try to go along with a solution. But it seems that Turkey is inflexible on this point.

Turkey managed to get away with it these last 30 years because it is a NATO member and an ally of the "West". It's now waking up to the fact that the EU is not NATO.


Turkey managed to get away with it these last 30 years because it is a NATO member and an ally of the "West". It's now waking up to the fact that the EU is not NATO.

It has nothing to do with being a NATO country.We had full right to intervene with the blody situation on the island according to the agreement which was signed between Turkey-Greece and UK as a guarantor of the Cyprus Rep. which was created with Turkish and Greek cypriots.

It's very hard to cary on such disgussion when people just don't know what they're talking about.

Kontra1 [/quote]

[Kontra1]

[quote=AROUETLJ]I didn't quite understand your last phrase (unless you meant that EU membership is not important since you're already a NATO member, in which case I fail to understand your governments pro-EU membership position), but perhaps I could put it this way so you understand: Unlike NATO, the EU is not a marriage of convenience.

And anyway, the original topic of this thread was recognition of Cyprus by the EU. So let me put this scenario before you.

It's 2010 and Turkey is an EU member (as you predict). Turkey signs the EU accession treaty. Among the signatories is a certain country called Cyprus. What does Turkey do? Or consider this scenario: At some future date, Cyprus hold the EU presidency. What does Turkey do? And what if it's Turkey which holds the EU presidency? Does Turkey receive members of the Cypriot government during meetings? Does organize Turkey EU summits minus Cyprus?

You see, Turkey's current position is incompatible not just with EU principles, but even with the day to day administrative process in the EU. So far you managed to get along within NATO because Cyprus is not a NATO member, but now you're trying to get into the EU and this problem has come up. The sooner you deal with it, the better.
(When I say "you", I mean the Turkish government of course, not you personally.)


Turkey s current position s compatible with international laws and totally with EU. It s so clear for us, why EU has taken South Cyprus while all disputes still same? we will enter if international community and island solves this promlem. There was a solution in front of world by United Nations plan. They have rejected it,Turks side accepted it,so who is the side that dont wanna peace in the island? what s ur view about them?
We will enter or not.The Cyprus issue s different issue for United Nations and European Union members.On the other side, the fair and right article from financial times express it well. I would like you to read it above please.



regards


The Annan Plan was sewverely flawed in areas of right of return and property rights, Turkish military withdrawl, and disproportionate representation in the government just to name a few.

Haha...I tell you what...you probably were never told that the Turkish Army withdrawl was going to be down to 600 from 30.000 within a year...

That's what they said no to...and WE are damn glad they did.

Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

[quote=AROUETLJ]I didn't quite understand your last phrase (unless you meant that EU membership is not important since you're already a NATO member, in which case I fail to understand your governments pro-EU membership position), but perhaps I could put it this way so you understand: Unlike NATO, the EU is not a marriage of convenience.

And anyway, the original topic of this thread was recognition of Cyprus by the EU. So let me put this scenario before you.

It's 2010 and Turkey is an EU member (as you predict). Turkey signs the EU accession treaty. Among the signatories is a certain country called Cyprus. What does Turkey do? Or consider this scenario: At some future date, Cyprus hold the EU presidency. What does Turkey do? And what if it's Turkey which holds the EU presidency? Does Turkey receive members of the Cypriot government during meetings? Does organize Turkey EU summits minus Cyprus?

You see, Turkey's current position is incompatible not just with EU principles, but even with the day to day administrative process in the EU. So far you managed to get along within NATO because Cyprus is not a NATO member, but now you're trying to get into the EU and this problem has come up. The sooner you deal with it, the better.
(When I say "you", I mean the Turkish government of course, not you personally.)


Turkey s current position s compatible with international laws and totally with EU. It s so clear for us, why EU has taken South Cyprus while all disputes still same? we will enter if international community and island solves this promlem. There was a solution in front of world by United Nations plan. They have rejected it,Turks side accepted it,so who is the side that dont wanna peace in the island? what s ur view about them?
We will enter or not.The Cyprus issue s different issue for United Nations and European Union members.On the other side, the fair and right article from financial times express it well. I would like you to read it above please.



regards


The Annan Plan was sewverely flawed in areas of right of return and property rights, Turkish military withdrawl, and disproportionate representation in the government just to name a few.

Haha...I tell you what...you probably were never told that the Turkish Army withdrawl was going to be down to 600 from 30.000 within a year...

That's what they said no to...and WE are damn glad they did.

Kontra1

The only ones to lose were the Turkish Cypriots. Its really quite sad to see how things transpired for the Cypriots in the North.

[Kontra1]

Anyone who doesn't like the situation,free to go to the other side...border is open.

Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

So you are good,and we are fine...I think u are out-of-date man who do not have enough infos about us and importance.:)


Well if Turkey was insignifiant I think there would be no problem to let her enter in the EU. Turkey is NOT insignifiant that"s all the problem.
I've said Turkey has a great power mentality as it's what you were most of your history, now I say Turkey is very powerfull, also I said stop playing with Turkey, that's not nice and I removed your illusion so you don't get fooled by our b@stard politicians: man you should thanks me instead of trying to hurt me insulting France.




thanx for ur comments, you are mostly right what you say above, sure we have got a great power mentality due to our extrasignificant history background. We had 16 great empires. So it s impossible to prevent us not to think that we are like "kitty" instead of "lion,etc...". I dont wanna insulting France, this s another issue for us due to Armenian issues(used Armenian) and we very much know why ur politicians use all these falsified issues to keep Turks out of EU perspective. But there are still some different countries who have think opposite of France like England-Germany(under Shroder admin), Spain, Belgium, Greece,Italy... ;)



regards

[Nikitaras]

So you are good,and we are fine...I think u are out-of-date man who do not have enough infos about us and importance.:)


Well if Turkey was insignifiant I think there would be no problem to let her enter in the EU. Turkey is NOT insignifiant that"s all the problem.
I've said Turkey has a great power mentality as it's what you were most of your history, now I say Turkey is very powerfull, also I said stop playing with Turkey, that's not nice and I removed your illusion so you don't get fooled by our b@stard politicians: man you should thanks me instead of trying to hurt me insulting France.

thanx for ur comments, you are mostly right what you say above, sure we have got a great power mentality due to our extrasignificant history background. We had 16 great empires. So it s impossible to prevent us not to think that we are like "kitty" instead of "lion,etc...". I dont wanna insulting France, this s another issue for us due to Armenian issues(used Armenian) and we very much know why ur politicians use all these falsified issues to keep Turks out of EU perspective. But there are still some different countries who have think opposite of France like England-Germany(under Shroder admin), Spain, Belgium, Greece,Italy... ;)

regards

Clearday, no offense but I believe Turkey in General has an extreme and over exaggerated "Imperial Complex". You guys need to get over the 16 empires BS. History is a good thing and lessons should be learned from it; however, we must not let it dominate our worldview. If Turkey wants to join they must play by the EU's rules. The situation is really quite elementary.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Clearday, no offense but I believe Turkey in General has an extreme and over exaggerated "Imperial Complex". You guys need to get over the 16 empires BS. History is a good thing and lessons should be learned from it; however, we must not let it dominate our worldview. If Turkey wants to join they must play by the EU's rules. The situation is really quite elementary.


Nikiritas, firstly hi...then I would like to indicate we dont have complex,we dont need it,we also had and still feel same into the this way.You call it "bs", and sure it s ur personal view on it. And we dont let it dominate our worldview. We can patriot,nationalist but it doesnt prevent us to think retional,we can also be rationalist when we are nationalist and have pride of our history. ;) EU issue is really different than you think here. There are some instincts, some deepest feelings about a view about Turks in EU due to some different headlines like "Turkish identity", "historical background", "religion", "geostrategic&geopolitic", etc...it s hard to think to tie us with some simple EU rules.



regards

[AROUETLJ]

If Turks don't want to join the EU and don't want to recognize Cyprus, as Kontra seems to indicate, then we have the best of both worlds and everybody's happy.

Clearday, are you saying that Turkey is being treated unfairly by the EU? Remember that for the EU, it matters not whether some sort of membership application was made 20 or 30 years ago. Some countries which joined in 2004 applied for membership way back in 1990. It's the fulfilment of membership criteria which matters. As things stand, Turkey has not yet satisfied all these criteria. It's as simple as that.

But this whole issue of recognition for Cyprus has nothing to do with human rights or politics. It's common sense.

As usual it is unfortunate that it had to be France to bring up a difficult issue. But it's a breath of fresh air in a murky situation. Somone just HAD to mention this fact before negotiations start. You do not seriously expect a country to join the EU without recognizing ALL the members, do you?

To you in Turkey, it might seem that recognition of Cyprus is some form of surrender by Turkey, but from the outside it doesn't look that way at all. In fact the impression we're getting is of an illogical Turkey doing everything possible to scupper its own EU memberhsip application. And the reaction from most people is "Let them be then."

[Clearday-TRForce]

Financial Times


French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin's remarks that Turkey cannot begin accession talks with the European Union unless it recognizes the Greek Cypriot administration are motivated by what looks like “political opportunism” tailored for the campaign to succeed Jacques Chirac as French president, the Financial Times said in an editorial comment yesterday.

“There is a respectable debate to be had about Turkey and the EU. Mr. de Villepin's intervention is not part of it,” said the respected British daily of the French prime minister's remarks earlier this week.

Turkey signed a protocol last week to extend its customs union deal with the EU to the 10 new members of the bloc, including Greek Cyprus, but said in a declaration attached to it that this does not mean recognition of the Greek Cypriot administration.

De Villepin said on Tuesday that refusing to recognize an EU member state while preparing to open accession talks with the bloc was inconceivable.

The Financial Times editorial said Ankara's position was reasonable because, in the first place, this was the same position that the EU leaders accepted at their summit in December, which set Oct. 3 as the date for starting entry talks.

“Second, it was the Greek Cypriots who rejected last year's United Nations compromise plan to reunify Cyprus while Ankara persuaded Turkish Cypriots to accept it.

Third, whatever the eventual fate of Turkey's European ambitions, Ankara has every right to expect the EU to honor its commitments,” said the newspaper. “That includes not moving the goalposts just as accession negotiations are supposed to start.”

The daily also said that the EU decision to accept Greek Cyprus as a member irrespective of the outcome of the U.N.-led reunification process was a “huge blunder.”

“While the government of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was straining every muscle to get Turkey's powerful military to stop underwriting Turkish Cypriot intransigence, Brussels, in effect, licensed Greek Cypriot obduracy and scuppered the best chance to end the conflict,” it said.

The daily also warned, “forcing the Cyprus issue, against a background of hostility to Turkish entry in Germany, France and Austria, would be a deal-breaker for Ankara.”




I have said my view is parallel what financial times wrote above. ;) According to me the problem s not Cyprus nor others, the problem that roland wrote and I fully agree with him.


regards

[Freibier]

Shure its opportunism of Villepin but that doesn't matter, it will work.
If Turkey wants to join, it must comply.
If it doesn't, well that's what everybody wants anyway, saves us time and money ;)
If the turkish government acts like Kontra and Clearday predict, it just shows that they aren't ready anyway.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Shure its opportunism of Villepin but that doesn't matter, it will work.
If Turkey wants to join, it must comply.
If it doesn't, well that's what everybody wants anyway, saves us time and money ;)
If the turkish government acts like Kontra and Clearday predict, it just shows that they aren't ready anyway.



:lol: dude,we dont represent our government. And we dont think u will save ur time and money if you do not take Turkey into EU. It will be lots of other issues u will face like ageing,narrow market,discrimination(in religions,in markets,in community...)

[SHAM]

Very true, i think this is only the first of many obstacles to be put in place to try block turkeys entry into the EU. It suits the governemtns, as it complies with national feeling in france and other countries and is'nt too obvious ;) i can see turkey eventually withdrawing its request to join the EU.

[Turhapuro]

I dont understand this disputy. Why would anyone even want to unify with turkish parts so why not just recognize it? Because even greek cypriots does not unify with turkish part (nor would I), what is the problem? I think current division of island as two separete entities is best for all (at least there is no multicultural problems :) )

Why not just make simple contract that everyone recognizes both states?

Is the main issue here that in history someone declared that Cyprus should be unified and no-one wants to back down?

[Clearday-TRForce]

I dont understand this disputy. Why would anyone even want to unify with turkish parts so why not just recognize it? Because even greek cypriots does not unify with turkish part (nor would I), what is the problem? I think current division of island as two separete entities is best for all (at least there is no multicultural problems :) )

Why not just make simple contract that everyone recognizes both states?

Is the main issue here that in history someone declared that Cyprus should be unified and no-one wants to back down?


coz, Greek Cypriots dream of taking other half of island back, this s what they wanna to continue in debate. The problem s they dont endure to see Turkish people in the other side which they had got in "once upon a time". ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Very true, i think this is only the first of many obstacles to be put in place to try block turkeys entry into the EU. It suits the governemtns, as it complies with national feeling in france and other countries and is'nt too obvious ;) i can see turkey eventually withdrawing its request to join the EU.


exactly. ;)

[Kontra1]

If Turks don't want to join the EU and don't want to recognize Cyprus, as Kontra seems to indicate, then we have the best of both worlds and everybody's happy.

Clearday, are you saying that Turkey is being treated unfairly by the EU? Remember that for the EU, it matters not whether some sort of membership application was made 20 or 30 years ago. Some countries which joined in 2004 applied for membership way back in 1990. It's the fulfilment of membership criteria which matters. As things stand, Turkey has not yet satisfied all these criteria. It's as simple as that.

But this whole issue of recognition for Cyprus has nothing to do with human rights or politics. It's common sense.

As usual it is unfortunate that it had to be France to bring up a difficult issue. But it's a breath of fresh air in a murky situation. Somone just HAD to mention this fact before negotiations start. You do not seriously expect a country to join the EU without recognizing ALL the members, do you?

To you in Turkey, it might seem that recognition of Cyprus is some form of surrender by Turkey, but from the outside it doesn't look that way at all. In fact the impression we're getting is of an illogical Turkey doing everything possible to scupper its own EU memberhsip application. And the reaction from most people is "Let them be then."


Remember that for the EU, it matters not whether some sort of membership application was made 20 or 30 years ago. Some countries which joined in 2004 applied for membership way back in 1990. It's the fulfilment of membership criteria which matters. As things stand, Turkey has not yet satisfied all these criteria. It's as simple as that.


You see my friend...

one of the reasons we can't have intellectual disgussions regarding the Turkey-EU situation is most of you are simply not well informed with the issue.

Besides many other issues, let's take the religious freedom issue for example; while Turkey has few hundred active churches all over the country, EU still pressing for turning the Greek Orthodox patriacy into a Vatican like independent state in the middle of Istanbul...and yet, there is NOT one mosque in Athens.While Turkey is being accused for treating kurds like ****,greeks DON'T even recocnize the existance of it's Turkish,Macedonian and other minorities...and when it comes to their daily existance..well,it's just little better than the kurds,but hey...shouldn't they? Greece gets a **** load of money from EU to use on them,so some ammount is being used I guess.

Some of the most recent memebers' situation is not even worth mentioning...how'bout Romania,Bulgaria? do you actually think yesterday's communist regimes has fulfilled all the criaterias?? NO CHANCE.

The most scary thing for EU citisens was the Turkish unemployed invasion correct?this issue even effected your voting on the constitution.Did you know that Turks from the mainland Turkey were going to be permenantly stopped(again...against the concept of EU)working in the EU countries?
...and many more similar issues.

Ask yourself...why are you hearing this for the first time?

As long as you folks disguss such issues with only the info you're being fed by your manupilating politicans,we'll never be able to have more constructive and higher level conversations here.But what's important for us is not what you think or what EU will do...What WE will do to make sure we're never a member...one thing for sure is never to give in on the cyprus issue.

Thanx for your time.

Kontra1

[Kontra1]

I dont understand this disputy. Why would anyone even want to unify with turkish parts so why not just recognize it? Because even greek cypriots does not unify with turkish part (nor would I), what is the problem? I think current division of island as two separete entities is best for all (at least there is no multicultural problems :) )

Why not just make simple contract that everyone recognizes both states?

Is the main issue here that in history someone declared that Cyprus should be unified and no-one wants to back down?

Exactly...

While they want Iraq to be divided...while Turkey to be divided...while they already divided other countries recently...why the hell they want to unify cyprus?? ;)

Very good question...and very good answer you got there ;) All we need is to have more people asking questions like this.

Kontra1

[MichaelF]

<obligatory flamewar fuel>Cyprus belongs to the Greeks. This is all quite clear. Constantinople, too.</Obligatory flamewar fuel>

From the American perspective (Which doesnt count, I know), it looks like the EU in general, and certain EU members in particular, are uncomfortable with letting Turkey join. Various economic, cultural and political decisions play into this.

Turkey's large population, non-European (read: Muslim) culture, various national grudges (Greece...), and the everpresent Armenian Slaughter accusations.

Turkey, for it's part, seems to be doing everything in it's power to not get accepted into the EU. The EU sets the ground rules, and Turkey has to abide by the EU's interpretation of them, not Turkey's interpretation.

Some of the Turkish posters seem to believe that the EU -must- allow Turkey to join. I don't know if this is factual or not.

[theg]

frnch evetytime tells lie turkey.

[Kontra1]

<obligatory flamewar fuel>Cyprus belongs to the Greeks. This is all quite clear. Constantinople, too.</Obligatory flamewar fuel>

From the American perspective (Which doesnt count, I know), it looks like the EU in general, and certain EU members in particular, are uncomfortable with letting Turkey join. Various economic, cultural and political decisions play into this.

Turkey's large population, non-European (read: Muslim) culture, various national grudges (Greece...), and the everpresent Armenian Slaughter accusations.

Turkey, for it's part, seems to be doing everything in it's power to not get accepted into the EU. The EU sets the ground rules, and Turkey has to abide by the EU's interpretation of them, not Turkey's interpretation.

Some of the Turkish posters seem to believe that the EU -must- allow Turkey to join. I don't know if this is factual or not.



Turkey, for it's part, seems to be doing everything in it's power to not get accepted into the EU. The EU sets the ground rules, and Turkey has to abide by the EU's interpretation of them, not Turkey's interpretation.

Some of the Turkish posters seem to believe that the EU -must- allow Turkey to join. I don't know if this is factual or not.

It's the comments like this that puts me into hesitation whether I should take them serious enough to respond...

First, you give the impression that you understand we DON'T want to (maj.of Turks and recent gov't do not represent them) join the EU...than later..you still mumble about we should be playing with the EU rules...

Why should ther be need for that?? We don't want to be a member of your club and we'll NEVER be!

Kontra1[/quote]

[MichaelF]

It's the comments like this that puts me into hesitation whether I should take them serious enough to respond...

First, you give the impression that you understand we DON'T want to (maj.of Turks and recent gov't do not represent them) join the EU...than later..you still mumble about we should be playing with the EU rules...

Why should ther be need for that?? We don't want to be a member of your club and we'll NEVER be!

Kontra1

Hold on, Kontra.
I was working under the assumption that EU membership was something Turkey (i.e. the Turkish Government -and- People) wanted.

If it is, then Turkey has to do whatever the EU wants Turkey to do, in order to get into the club.

If, on the other hand, Turkey doesnt want to join, then Turkey can pretty much do or say whatever it wants, and the EU can't do squat.

Has to be either one or the other, no?

[turan8]

Actually Turkey did one of the biggest things in history to join the EU; it eliminated the death penalty. This is a big item because even in the US, we still have the death penalty. They also did it with the agreement that Abdullah Ocalan (Turkey's Osama bin Laden who caused the death of more then 30,000 Turkish citizens and who has already been captured) would not be killed because "Kurdish" populations in Europe wanted him to be the prime beneficiary of the new policy. If the US captured Osama, you know damn well that we'd kill him. For Turkey not to do so shows incredible restraint on their part.

I still think Turkey shouldn't join the EU though--as a matter of fact I'm writing a thesis on it right now for my senior seminer as an undergrad in Political Science and Public Policy. In the arrangement the EU will get all the benefits and Turkey will most likely get very little. The EU gets a steady stream of cheap labor in it's domestic market and a country that with it's large army can easily fulfill NATO requirements. The EU also get a major port for Natural Gas and Petrolium products and indeed gets a direct pipeline from Turkmenistan for Natural Gas. Turkey will get maybe $2 billion dollars in return for 10 years or so. The economic activity that will be generated by allowing Turkey into the EU could be as high $200 Billion a year in labor savings and increased flow of goods through the EU and outlets in the Middle East and Asia.

The biggest problem though is that Turkey will get A) a Hostile group of countries that for the most part have proven extremely racist in terms of policy in the past and B)A dillution of cultural pride and identity that all Turks have by the larger (in it's entirety) European population.

Many people think that the EU is a heterogenous group of countries that joined together out of some idealistic notion of botherhood. The reality is that EU, joined together in order to preserve their European identity from countries such as Turkey, Algeria, and Russia that due to immigration were increasingly make up a large portion of European populations. The other large reason why they joined up was to be more economically competitive in a region were labor costs were steadily going up compared to surrounding countries where labor cost were going down, so they joined together to provide a domestic market much larger then normal and therefore able to resist ecomomic pressures of accruing foreign labor.

Both reasons have failed and will fail. The European countries already have large portions of their populations that are not traditionally European (white anglo-saxon, germanic, or mediterrainian) so that is failing because their numbers are increasing faster then that of the natives. Also the ecomomic situation is in the midst of failing. For example one of the ways European farms have survived is that their governments have subisidized them in ways poorer countries can not compete, the USA does this to but to a lesser extent. Some countries such as Holland subsidized their domestic industries at 3 times their economic activity which is grossly illegal. Countries such as Brazil and Uruguay are fighting this however. Brazil sued the USA over it's cotton subsidies and won the case in the World Trade Organization. My guess is that similar practices will happen to the EU who subsidize their industries far more.

One example of how this impacts the EU and Turkish relations is the French Automobile Industry. Corporations such as Renault receive huge government subsidies for cars that are similar to Turkish produced cars in quality such as those made by the Sabanci Group which receives almost no Turkish subsidies. The EU however, also heavily taxes imports and these two policies combined make it almost impossible for corporations outside the EU which receive little subsides from the governments to enter that market. This also means that corporations such as Renault become stronger because it dominates Frances comparatively larger domestic market and can easily enter Turkey's market.

Another problem that Turkey has is the defense of its homeland. I seriously doubt that the Europeans will come to the aid of Turkey in case of an attack on Turkey.

That is why I have always advocated an economic union with Israel, South Africa, South Korea, and Japan. These countries are much better choices for Turkey in terms of diplomatic relations and competitiveness in foreign and domestic markets. In my paper I list numerous reasons why these choices are better but you can probably already hypothesize why if you know the economic and cultural histories of these countries.

Its just not worth the risk for Turkey.

[Nikitaras]

Actually Turkey did one of the biggest things in history to join the EU; it eliminated the death penalty. This is a big item because even in the US, we still have the death penalty. They also did it with the agreement that Abdullah Ocalan (Turkey's Osama bin Laden who caused the death of more then 30,000 Turkish citizens and who has already been captured) would not be killed because "Kurdish" populations in Europe wanted him to be the prime beneficiary of the new policy. If the US captured Osama, you know damn well that we'd kill him. For Turkey not to do so shows incredible restraint on their part.

I still think Turkey shouldn't join the EU though--as a matter of fact I'm writing a thesis on it right now for my senior seminer as an undergrad in Political Science and Public Policy. In the arrangement the EU will get all the benefits and Turkey will most likely get very little. The EU gets a steady stream of cheap labor in it's domestic market and a country that with it's large army can easily fulfill NATO requirements. The EU also get a major port for Natural Gas and Petrolium products and indeed gets a direct pipeline from Turkmenistan for Natural Gas. Turkey will get maybe $2 billion dollars in return for 10 years or so. The economic activity that will be generated by allowing Turkey into the EU could be as high $200 Billion a year in labor savings and increased flow of goods through the EU and outlets in the Middle East and Asia.

The biggest problem though is that Turkey will get A) a Hostile group of countries that for the most part have proven extremely racist in terms of policy in the past and B)A dillution of cultural pride and identity that all Turks have by the larger (in it's entirety) European population.

Many people think that the EU is a heterogenous group of countries that joined together out of some idealistic notion of botherhood. The reality is that EU, joined together in order to preserve their European identity from countries such as Turkey, Algeria, and Russia that due to immigration were increasingly make up a large portion of European populations. The other large reason why they joined up was to be more economically competitive in a region were labor costs were steadily going up compared to surrounding countries where labor cost were going down, so they joined together to provide a domestic market much larger then normal and therefore able to resist ecomomic pressures of accruing foreign labor.

Both reasons have failed and will fail. The European countries already have large portions of their populations that are not traditionally European (white anglo-saxon, germanic, or mediterrainian) so that is failing because their numbers are increasing faster then that of the natives. Also the ecomomic situation is in the midst of failing. For example one of the ways European farms have survived is that their governments have subisidized them in ways poorer countries can not compete, the USA does this to but to a lesser extent. Some countries such as Holland subsidized their domestic industries at 3 times their economic activity which is grossly illegal. Countries such as Brazil and Uruguay are fighting this however. Brazil sued the USA over it's cotton subsidies and won the case in the World Trade Organization. My guess is that similar practices will happen to the EU who subsidize their industries far more.

One example of how this impacts the EU and Turkish relations is the French Automobile Industry. Corporations such as Renault receive huge government subsidies for cars that are similar to Turkish produced cars in quality such as those made by the Sabanci Group which receives almost no Turkish subsidies. The EU however, also heavily taxes imports and these two policies combined make it almost impossible for corporations outside the EU which receive little subsides from the governments to enter that market. This also means that corporations such as Renault become stronger because it dominates Frances comparatively larger domestic market and can easily enter Turkey's market.

Another problem that Turkey has is the defense of its homeland. I seriously doubt that the Europeans will come to the aid of Turkey in case of an attack on Turkey.

That is why I have always advocated an economic union with Israel, South Africa, South Korea, and Japan. These countries are much better choices for Turkey in terms of diplomatic relations and competitiveness in foreign and domestic markets. In my paper I list numerous reasons why these choices are better but you can probably already hypothesize why if you know the economic and cultural histories of these countries.

Its just not worth the risk for Turkey.

In noticing your user name, I have to ask if the racist and imperialist concept and principle behind Turanism is also explained in your paper?

[turan8]

Only when the subtly gay (i.e. Greek) innuendo in your name is explained.

[Clearday-TRForce]

That is why I have always advocated an economic union with Israel, South Africa, South Korea, and Japan. These countries are much better choices for Turkey in terms of diplomatic relations and competitiveness in foreign and domestic markets. In my paper I list numerous reasons why these choices are better but you can probably already hypothesize why if you know the economic and cultural histories of these countries.

Its just not worth the risk for Turkey.


thanx turan8.It s a well explanation but we need more with ur view,we also think same in "not to join" to EU. According to us, we dont need to join into EU. Japan,SKorea,Israel,SAfrica,Russia(maybe),and with other Turko countries should be the first choice for us. We have to use our labor power,flexibility,geostrategic,geopolitics while not to joining into EU.


(note:Nikiritas, he s explaning an issue and u type here like "do u support 'turanism',mate do u find it logical?





regards.

[Turhapuro]

In the arrangement the EU will get all the benefits and Turkey will most likely get very little. The EU gets a steady stream of cheap labor in it's domestic market
Workers, who benefit greatly from migrating to Europe, don't count? ;)



The reality is that EU, joined together in order to preserve their European identity from countries such as Turkey, Algeria, and Russia that due to immigration were increasingly make up a large portion of European populations.
If this is true, why EU nations does not just cut down immigration? It would be fast and easy way to solve whole identity problem. The main problem in Europe is that politiciand really don't care about european culture, they favor multiculturism.



Also the ecomomic situation is in the midst of failing. For example one of the ways European farms have survived is that their governments have subisidized them in ways poorer countries can not compete, the USA does this to but to a lesser extent.


Cutting subsidiezed only makes good to economy. The main reason for large subsidies is agrarian propaganda spread by farmers (foreign food is bad, almost toxic, we must be self-sufficient etc etc) . Many people are very emotional about farming and they want waste enormous amounts of money so they can buy more expensive food. :(

[Kontra1]

It's the comments like this that puts me into hesitation whether I should take them serious enough to respond...

First, you give the impression that you understand we DON'T want to (maj.of Turks and recent gov't do not represent them) join the EU...than later..you still mumble about we should be playing with the EU rules...

Why should ther be need for that?? We don't want to be a member of your club and we'll NEVER be!

Kontra1

Hold on, Kontra.
I was working under the assumption that EU membership was something Turkey (i.e. the Turkish Government -and- People) wanted.

...and you were partially correct.It was like you assumed untill recently and all changed when the EU panic when they saw the recent progress on the Turkish side(with complying with most of the most important of their criterias) i.e Copenhagen and other criterias such as abolishing of the death penalty..... they suddenly decided to change the rules for Turkey in the middle of the game.
They started coming with extra demands which were totally uncalled for and no where to fit into the standart criterias like other canditade members had to comply with.Most of these extra rules presented danger for our national security(note; it isn't national sovereignty I'm talking about...because we're aware of some sovereignty will shift to Brussels)Also, they wanted to stop Turks coming to EU for work permanantly(we understand other countries has some thing similar....but not permanent)

If it is, then Turkey has to do whatever the EU wants Turkey to do, in order to get into the club.

If, on the other hand, Turkey doesnt want to join, then Turkey can pretty much do or say whatever it wants, and the EU can't do squat.

Correct ...but the current gov't has its own interests and agenda for trying for it as hard as they can.They're also aware of we will never be allowed to be member, but the 10-15 years of accession period will be enough for them to achive their plans...by the time EU decides to get honest and say NO for good, they'll have some important issues for them removed from their way, so they can have the Turkey just like they want it to be...less secular (maybe non at all) and more Islamic.

Has to be either one or the other, no?

Well...the people of Turkey is not being asked. Knowing the outcome, they don't dare to go for a referandum.There is only one way...hopefully someone with a powerful voice in Turkey will say NO...soon.



Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

"N O" to EU...

(we need a government who ask a referandum,and they will see the results...we dont need EU)

[Kontra1]

In noticing your user name, I have to ask if the racist and imperialist concept and principle behind Turanism is also explained in your paper?

Brother turan8,

Don't worry about niko. He's got this half-ass info about our history so he gets these panic attacks when he sees names from our historical heritage;)

Hosgeldin.

Kontra1

[theg]

"N O" to EU...

(we need a government who ask a referandum,and they will see the results...we dont need EU)


x999999999999999999999999999999


no to EU

[theg]

In noticing your user name, I have to ask if the racist and imperialist concept and principle behind Turanism is also explained in your paper?

Brother turan8,

Don't worry about niko. He's got this half-ass info about our history so he gets these panic attacks when he sees names from our historical heritage;)

Hosgeldin.

Kontra1


KARDES HOSGELDIN


WELLCOME TOO

[Nikitaras]

Only when the subtly gay (i.e. Greek) innuendo in your name is explained.

Interesting analysis. I was expecting you to provide us a lesson on the great Turan and Turkic Pan-Turanism, so far I've gotten the typical non-answer from another mouth breathing knuckledragger.

Welcome aboard Γαιδουρογαμη.

[Nikitaras]

In noticing your user name, I have to ask if the racist and imperialist concept and principle behind Turanism is also explained in your paper?

Brother turan8,

Don't worry about niko. He's got this half-ass info about our history so he gets these panic attacks when he sees names from our historical heritage;)

Hosgeldin.

Kontra1

I forgot that real history is ensconsed only in Turkish propaganda pamphlets handed out out by the MHP goosesteppers. Just so this doesn't become another 60 page flame war, I'll leave you guys to your circle jerk.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Γαιδουρογαμη


very friendly and informative, hope, we ll built up a huge bridge among us to a "bs". :lol:

[Nikitaras]

Γαιδουρογαμη


very friendly and informative, hope, we ll built up a huge bridge among us to a "bs". :lol:

CD me and you have had some good exchanges but when your fellow Turk responds with insults to a legitimate question, than perhaps you should ask him what kind of bridges we'll be building.