Anti-Americanism (it's a little trite!)

[Juvenile1]

Howdy,

I've been lurking around the form for maybe about a year or so. The photo sections are spectacular, kudos to the site manager! Lately i've taken the time to read some of the posted discussions, particularly those acredited to military personnel, which i've found far and away the most interesting. However, in doing so, i've become aware of a distasteful amount of anti-american rhetoric being spewed across the Atlantic from our European relatives.

Now usually i would avoid such a "discussion" (or rather, meaningless internet jaunt) as it never has, nor probably ever shall be my passion, let alone my first love (as it appears to be for some....) I have however found it increasingly difficult to visit the site I so enjoy, knowing that this kind of mental manutia acutually exists in such capacious craniums. First and foremost, if i do anything here, i would like to remind Europeans (who seem starkly unaware of this) that we too (well the majority of n.americans) are Europeans. Our nations are the product of centuries of stagnation, frustration and ultiatmely decline which became apparent during the 17th and 18th centuries - really it's true, just ask Thomas Malthus...and thus naturally we are the sum of many European ideologies.

So if i may - stop yieliding to that silly, trite tempation which many of you seem highly addicted to; because in truth, we (north america) are nothing more than what you (Europe, particularly old Europe, my fatherland so to speak) could have and ultimately proved incapable of being (though you [we] tried through a succession of futile wars to become masters of a singular continental destiny). Those of you who cannot heed my call, i suggest you retreat with sanguinity behind that fortress of a document you call the Treaty of Maastricht; enjoy your wonderful Orwellian world of think speak (poliotical correctness) and cultural secularism (moral abasement). And of course, it would be rude of me not to remind you to listen carefully to your french diplomats and german bankers.

Bu-Bye/Farvel :roll:

[cut]

There's a fair amount anti-european comments about (eg your post) so it's the same for everyone, stop whingeing.

[ibstolidude]

And be sure to check the curveture of your bananas!

[stuntman]

There's a fair amount anti-european comments about (eg your post) so it's the same for everyone, stop whingeing.
No not enough! Nice observation Juvi!

[cut]

piss off Woodland. your coments are the most xenophobic of all

[Guttorm]

There are idiots in Europe, just as it is idiots in North america.
Don't think I'll say more than that.

[wholagun]

Um not sure if you noticed but your only the problem worse.. :roll:

[Groove]

Most of the so called anti-americanism you found on this forum are in some controversing threads.

Some ppl defend the US Army regardless of what it posted here. Others dont see it the same way. Other thing is this "anti-old-europe" behaviour you can read here sometimes - especially against France. This ist getting boring in my opinion.

So its some kind of controversal discussion i think.

Greetings Groove

[stuntman]

piss off Woodland. your coments are the most xenophobic of all
As I live in New York City which if you do not know is a melting pot of multicoulturalism, there is possibly no way I can be affraid of anything other then American! So stop with the silly 20 dollar (or Euro) words and just understand I am right and you are wrong!
Later..

[Haiw]

Wow...you used all your 3 brain cells to make your contributions to this thread stuntman? :roll:

[stuntman]

Wow...you used all your 3 brain cells to make your contributions to this thread stuntman? :roll:

THX! :P

[Operation Ivy]

ahahaha Stuntman is Woodland..that stupid liittle kid who made all those dumb comments in the photo section rofl

Weep em man it's America rofl

[Haiw]

He's a prime example of a reason for anti-americanism... :roll:

[Operation Ivy]

He's a prime example of a reason for anti-americanism... :roll:

Exactly true :(

[Dalleer]

So stop with the silly 20 dollar (or Euro) words

Hey hey hey! 20 Euros is a lot of money back here!

[cut]

€20=$25 or a measly £14

[Dalleer]

€20=$25 or a measly £14

...Yeah! like you said, alot of money!

[usa320]

Ill agree there is alot of Anti-American bs, but its always the same 4 people. Its not right to single out all europeans, when of the 4 anti-american bitchers only 2 are european, and the others Canadian.

Thats not to say that we dont have jackasses here either.

I think instead of keeping this silly bull**** going, Europe needs to realize that we DID go to war in Iraq. We WON the war against SADDAM in IRAQ. Now is the time to stop arguing and try and work together to MAKE IRAQ WORK.

[Juvenile1]

Not exactly.

As far as I see it, the collapse of the current political and military alliance strucutre is an inevitablilty, though it may be retardecd by what often appear to be deeply entrenched but practically speaking, are little more than sentimental connections of race, language, culture. This board is proof of that. When the s*** hits the fan people quickly draw lines which are naturally (and usually historically) defendable. However, herein lay the niche difficulty with, I think, the continental American understading of Europe as one nation - the erosion of state sepcific powers vis-a-vis those of the regional directorate power, especially when that regional governence denegrates one side over another, is opposed to the idealism of the constitution by which American indenity is rooted. Hence, an aversion towards the streamlining of national identitiy cannot be anything other than an ideology for Americans...this is why i don't expect a cohesive plan towards pan-american unity to coalese naturally; but rather by the impetus of a growing supra-foreign threat posed by the "trans-national" state.

Bu-Bye/Farvel

[ibstolidude]

€20=$25 or a measly £14

Let is not forget $32.43 CAD.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Actually, I like the anti American/Europe threads in this forum. Here you can say what you want and express yourself freely with other Europeans of all nationalities. I believe that all points of view are represented quite well on both sides and I think the debates are fun. Nearly every American and European are thinking these bad things...but it seems that we're the only ones that have the balls/ovaries to say it.

[usa320]

I think, the continental American understading of Europe as one nation

So true. WE used to be able to just call france a pain in the ass. Now it seems alot of Americans lump europe together, which isnt right, seeing as alot of our allies are in Europe. Italy, Spain, the UK, Poland, ect.

[stuntman]

ahahaha Stuntman is Woodland..that stupid liittle kid who made all those dumb comments in the photo section rofl

Weep em man it's America rofl
LOOK! Just because your little tanks in your post can be disabled by the (dam)euro missles the guy is carring to the right of the Ivy tanks doesn't mean you have to join the coat holders list! Please refrain from mocking or calling me a kid! Kids are baby goats get it straight. I am a man! If your still not convinced I'll send you pics but keep the ladies away for fear of instant lust over there private parts...
WOW I'm turning into woodland! here please keep hyde away it hurts to be him..

[oakes]

There's only two things I hate; people who are intolerant of other people's cultures...and the Dutch!!

[Seiyuuki]

I demand DIVERSITY...where is the anti-Asian??? p-)

All I hear is anti-Europe...blah...blah...blah...anti-American...blah...blah...blah...share the hate!!!

[stuntman]

I demand DIVERSITY...where is the anti-Asian??? p-)

All I hear is anti-Europe...blah...blah...blah...anti-American...blah...blah...blah...share the hate!!!
I hope you are kidding because that is the easiest!

[martinexsquaddie]

if you insist :backhand: get back behind the wok I want my fryed lice and I want them now hold the sweet and sour dog though rofl

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

No matter what there is always be someone bitching about another persons country.

[Hydro]

Who FOUGHT in Iraq WITH the Americans? The UK.

WHERE is the UK? In Europe.

Denmark is currently in Iraq. Where is Denmark? In Europe. Wasn't it DANISH soldiers that found the closest thing we've found to WMD?

What about the Italians? They suffered tragic losses in a bomb attack in....Iraq.

Doesn't POLAND count as Eastern EUROPE? Didn't Polish SF operate with Navy SEALS in, oh, let me guess, IRAQ? Aren't the Poles currently in Iraq?


Get over it, Europe isn't just France you know.

[Loco]

20euros=$25 or a measly £14
Just curious, what anybody of you can do with + or - 20?=25$=14pounds in your countries???? Common, everybody round the forum globe, let´s talk about real things. Just as an anecdote, I bought my nephew last christmas 2 water Florida turtles, anti-acid water ingredients, calcium and food paying exactly 24euros, and with 20euros I could eat fairly well in the chinese restaurant near my home plus a bottle of not bad red wine.
Damm...I wouldn´t be here writing this, it´s supposed I should be working!
p-)

Why doesn´t the euro sign in the screen? It only appears an interrogation sign .

[Loco]

I demand DIVERSITY...where is the anti-Asian??? p-)

As for the purpose of your question, I don´t like curry sauce, in fact I hate it, does it count for being anti-asian? Let´s me think, sure there is something I don´t like of Asia.

[mustamato]

Let´s me think, sure there is something I don´t like of Asia.

The girls are beautiful, can´t say that about the boys though.

[Luxembourger]

There's only two things I hate; people who are intolerant of other people's cultures



I agree

Some words on antii-americanism from my point of view :
in Europe there are three groups of people :
1) those who love america and backed the war
2) those who love america and only didn t agree on Bush decision to go to war
3) those who hate america for everything ( most cases extreem left-wing, anarchists, green party politicans ( exclude Fischer,german s foreign minister he is a great guy)

Where does that anit-americanism come from ?
I would say in every european country you have groups of People who are anti-american

To say that France is the most anti-ameircan country is wrong . It may be some members of the Government who are anti-american, some writers, some intellectuals , and of course the extrem leftist parties (gauche plurielle) . The right wing party (UMP, union majorite parlemanitre) has some politicans who are anti-american but it s a minortiy.

As FRance is my neighbour country and the place where I study, I analyse a lot the anti-american issue there. Sad is to say that when you go to their libraries
you see so many books against america ,,,but you have some books too ,,some great books who defend Amercia against the anti-americanism.

You can find this in every country . In my opinion Anti-americanism in Europe is widespread among a certain category of people which ignore a lot and lack a lot of knowledge of the US , most haven t been even there. .
Another thing : In europe we have disputes among each nation concerning the EU ....the big countries in Europe want to dominate the small ones like Nehterlands , Belgium, Portugal, and mine Luxembourg.,,,so it sucks that some people here point their fingers on the US where in Europe we have so many problems that need to be solved!

Europe is far from being perfect,. To say that the US is a violent country and that it is a fast food culture is naiv. We have as much violence here in Europe than in US....recently someone shot in the Netherllands the head of the high school during the break. In Strassbourg , FRance ,,on NEw years Day about 300 cars are always set on fire , in many french suburbs french bus drivers, eldery people, firefighters, police officers are attacked....just watch french news and read theirnews papers. But I am sure with their interior minister Sarkozy the situation will improve as he is a great guy with an iron fist.

[WARPIG]

if you insist :backhand: get back behind the wok I want my fryed lice and I want them now hold the sweet and sour dog though rofl

That's fried rice you plick!

[WARPIG]

The Anti-Americanism we see is (in my opinion) a reflex action from many people when they feel threatened. If you really look at it.. the US military has never really had this much dominance. The political powers that be in the US are well aware of that too. With all the negative misgivings that most people (to include N. Americans) have about US politicians, I can see the nervousness. If you put it into context though, our politicians are no better nor worse than any other countries.. we just have the "cowboy" rep.

War in Iraq was inevitable, and the world knew we would come out on top. If a football game is heavily lopsided, then you criticise the winning team for not scoring more..or.. letting the other team score at all. Criticism will always come from those who choose apathy. Like the French looking down their noses at the US and criticising every detail. We Americans don't take that very well. We have grown into a cynical society and returning fire is just the reaction that we are expected to have. When Europe is so closely tied in the EU it is not surprising that the anti-European trash talk goes the opposite way.

Americans have always been "yanks" and "cowboys." Europeans have always been "Eurotrash." War just seems to give a little more ammo for either insult; and the jibes seem to sting a little more.

I agree... new lines are being drawn but many of them are over the same old lines as before. As other nations race to try and catch the US or atleast challenge us in military might... the trash talk and rhetoric will continue. Europe will call us uncouth, asia calls us lazy, latins call us unpationate.. well you get the picture. Americans will live up to all of that. We will also continue to love action over apathy, courage over ambiguous indecision, and patriotism despite hardship.
The important thing with the Anti-US and Anti-Euro poo flinging is that most of it is just that... loads of crap being thrown back and forth among a group of shaved monkeys. Then, there are the honest criticisms.. many are still biased of course.. and we have to pay attention. Whether European or US.. if we dismiss all the criticism.. we aren't being honest with ourselves.

[Aegirsson]

"1) those who love america and backed the war
2) those who love america and only didn t agree on Bush decision to go to war
3) those who hate america for everything ( most cases extreem left-wing, anarchists, green party politicans "

Sorry to say it, but it is not so simple!
I am french, I don't love USA, as i don't love Uk, as i don't love India, as i don't love Congo etc...
I love my family.
I think it's too easy to say: this person don't think like me, i am for war in irak, he is not, it means he is anti-american!
That's totally false!
Because i don't love a country doesn't mean i hate it!
Sometimes i do agree with it's politics, sometimes i do not...

I am really getting tired of all the comments like, frenchies didn't support us in this war against a tyrant!... But it is not true!
France is not against the judgement of saddam or "elimination" of the terrorist, france is against the methods...
And for the persons who are saying they dont want to send men to us in Afgh ...It's false, we can't!
Our army is in a big refomation: we have specialists but we have no infantry, we have no technician*, we have no cooks... That's the truth.

*for example, when we sended our 52 men in irak they did half the way in french choppers, then in american choppers, i think you see why.

[WARPIG]

Take it easy Frenchie! rofl Sorry.. I was just kidding. I think you misunderstood. French have never been very fond of Americans.. We tend to reciprocate that. The problem I have, that most Americans have, is not that France didn't support us.. it is that France feels qualified to criticise us and gather support against us. It is one thing if the UK criticises us for what we do or how we do it... they are actively doing something about Iraq. France is content with criticising from a safe distance and then adding insult by assuming the moral high ground.
Like I said before... making fun of the French is as common as French making fun of us. Although we tend to tease, rib and insult each other.. many Europeans are infatuated and obsessed with all things American.. just as Americans are obsessed with all things European.. well not all things in either case. I guess culturally we are all extremely fond of each other but it is natural for us to mock and tease each other. The political actions of each other's country just seem to inflame those insults.
Bottom line on the anti-French thing.. instead of criticising us while sitting on your fat ass.. get up and show us how it is done. Do something about it.

[Aegirsson]

"instead of criticising us while sitting on your fat ass.. get up and show us how it is done. Do something about it."

I don't really get your point.
Are you saying to the french to show you how we can handle the thing (war) instead of cristizing?

It is stupid!
What do you want us to show, we are not speaking of Olympic games here, we are not speaking of a school test , nor we are speaking of cooking.
We are speaking of war. Peoples are dying, somes are killing, there is nothing to be proud of.
When i speak about the methods, i don't mean war methods.

Do you think there is only one way to solve a problem: take out a stinger and shoot the door because you don't find your keys? (ok it's a bad exemple but you get my point).

We don't say that less people would have been killed if we were in your place doing this war: comparing armies is for 10 year old children thinking of war like a movie("oh i'm stronger than you, i can kill more than you...).
We are speaking about the whole thing, was war really necessary, had saddam so much power, could he really raise an army of "ultra powerfull special-forces fedayeens", had he really got wmd, was he in contact with ladden's al qaeda? after 10 years of embargo, sorry but i don't think so.

What we are cristizing is that US governments said "haha don't worry about irak, saddam is just a tyrant without any power".
Then 1 year later: "Be carefull, he has atomic/chimical power and he is ready to use it against the occident!"

Are you blind?
And stop saying that when people say that your soldier are dying for oil they are ****ers with no nuts that could not fight.
Where are you? Have you got an m16 in the hands fighting in irak and eating dirt?
The ones who are dishonoring your soldiers are only you: "they are fighting for freedom!"
Oh my god, have you got eyes?
We are not a 6 june 1944, we are not fighting nazis, you are not against SS!

We are speaking about the methods...not war methods (every modern country is"capable" of throwing bombs etc...) but we are speaking about the meaning of this war, could it have been avoied...

[cut]

20euros=$25 or a measly £14

Why doesn´t the euro sign in the screen? It only appears an interrogation sign .

coz the board is american. if you want to compare you have to use one product sold all around the world. like a mars bar or a can of coke or a mcdonalds hamburger.

mars= 35p (63c)
macD=69p ($1.24)
coke= 45p (81c)

[WARPIG]

"instead of criticising us while sitting on your fat ass.. get up and show us how it is done. Do something about it."

I don't really get your point.
Are you saying to the french to show you how we can handle the thing (war) instead of cristizing?

It is stupid!
What do you want us to show, we are not speaking of Olympic games here, we are not speaking of a school test , nor we are speaking of cooking.
We are speaking of war. Peoples are dying, somes are killing, there is nothing to be proud of.
When i speak about the methods, i don't mean war methods.

Do you think there is only one way to solve a problem: take out a stinger and shoot the door because you don't find your keys? (ok it's a bad exemple but you get my point).

We don't say that less people would have been killed if we were in your place doing this war: comparing armies is for 10 year old children thinking of war like a movie("oh i'm stronger than you, i can kill more than you...).
We are speaking about the whole thing, was war really necessary, had saddam so much power, could he really raise an army of "ultra powerfull special-forces fedayeens", had he really got wmd, was he in contact with ladden's al qaeda? after 10 years of embargo, sorry but i don't think so.

What we are cristizing is that US governments said "haha don't worry about irak, saddam is just a tyrant without any power".
Then 1 year later: "Be carefull, he has atomic/chimical power and he is ready to use it against the occident!"

Are you blind?
And stop saying that when people say that your soldier are dying for oil they are f*** with no nuts that could not fight.
Where are you? Have you got an m16 in the hands fighting in irak and eating dirt?
The ones who are dishonoring your soldiers are only you: "they are fighting for freedom!"
Oh my god, have you got eyes?
We are not a 6 june 1944, we are not fighting nazis, you are not against SS!

We are speaking about the methods...not war methods (every modern country is"capable" of throwing bombs etc...) but we are speaking about the meaning of this war, could it have been avoied...

WOW! Even when the French talk out of their ass it sounds poetic!

OK that was an insult. Plain and obvious. My comments sayin that you should stop criticising from the safety of apathy was not. When you choose to do nothing, choose not to act, you have no grounds to criticise those who do. Could the war have been avoided.. yes! What would have happened if the UN had shown some solidarity and acknowledged Saddam was a impending threat to the world? What if the UN was actually a useful frigging entity and enforced their contracts with Saddam long before George W. put his foot down.
You my friend are the one who is blind. First of all, go through my posts and tell me where I tried to compare the French Army with the US. Find the comment that I made about not having nuts and can't fight. No one is dying for oil in my country. Your ignorant view and egotistical vanity are what prevent you from having any chance of logical thought.
I didn't say go show us how to fight a war. I said to stop critcising those who have the guts to atleast try and affect change rather than sitting on your asses and doing nothing but talk. If you don't like how it is going.. go and help fix it. If we are not doing it right.. offer help. That won't happen though.. it would require action... action is open to mistake and criticism. We can't have the French making mistakes and being criticised can we? How could you look down your nose at the vulgar Americans then?
Where am I? I am awaiting orders to go and continue the work of my comrads in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and other places. I am training soldiers in military combat, history, values, and ethics. If those methods are the ones you don't like.. tuff. Don't assume to lecture me on what me or my family has sacrificed to keep both my country and the world safer and free. No, we are not fighting the SS. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. My grandfather did however. That same SS that looked to oppress France and the rest of the world. You know.. they were from that country just north-east of France.. Germany, your buddy in the EU now.
I know all about the sacrifice and the price of war. My grandfather and father served. If it had not been for the US troops that they served with..I would not exist. My mothers family would have been killed off by the Japanese or the N. Korean communists. The same kind of Tyrants that you say we should have avoided war with in the Gulf.
Well that could be true. If we would have chosen apathy and indifferance over action, and courage... there would be no war in Iraq right?

[Wacko]

USA! woot

[army cadet_ngcsu]

LOL....here is your anti- Asian comment....South Koreans are good for nothing back stabbers. We should only stay there until all of the old South Korean war veterans are dead and then we should leave South Korea to the mercy of the North...

[WARPIG]

LOL....here is your anti- Asian comment....South Koreans are good for nothing back stabbers. We should only stay there until all of the old South Korean war veterans are dead and then we should leave South Korea to the mercy of the North...

I hope you are kidding. Look into how many times South Korea has backed us up in the past. (After the Korean war) Look into how ROK treats our vets better than we do! Even with the North Korean extortionist on their back door they still manage to send a few troops to Iraq with us.
I don't know if you were kidding or someone pissed in your Coco Puffs. Can you explain that?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

LOL....here is your anti- Asian comment....South Koreans are good for nothing back stabbers. We should only stay there until all of the old South Korean war veterans are dead and then we should leave South Korea to the mercy of the North...

I hope you are kidding. Look into how many times South Korea has backed us up in the past. (After the Korean war) Look into how ROK treats our vets better than we do! Even with the North Korean extortionist on their back door they still manage to send a few troops to Iraq with us.
I don't know if you were kidding or someone pissed in your Coco Puffs. Can you explain that?

Not to mention the massive nosedive the world economy would suffer if the North invaded the South. Think of how much "stuff", especially high-tech stuff is made in S. Korea. Dude, you're gettin' a Dell, with an 18 month parts delay, and for $17000.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Well, I was some what kidding and I am not at the same time. I really do believe that we should not be there in that peninsula. The majority of people do not want us there, so we should just leave. Some of the biggest anti Iraq War protests were in South Korea. It is true that South Korea has been real helpful in the PAST (especially with the Vietnam), but as the older pro- American folks die off, their anti- American offspring will take over and their even more anti-American offspring will become powerful as well...it is only a matter of time before they ask us to officially leave.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Besides...they're rich as hell, why do we have to defend them??? They can raise an army atleast as good as the North's and they definetly have the money and especially the technology....do we have to do everything around this house...now go get me my beer bitch!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Besides...they're rich as hell, why do we have to defend them??? They can raise an army atleast as good as the North's and they definetly have the money and especially the technology....do we have to do everything around this house...now go get me my beer bitch!

rofl Nice one. But you do have a point about the difference between the generations in the South. The older folks remember the war & Seoul changing hands many times etc. All the kids know is a life of privilege & plenty (I guess that could be said for a lot of Western societies). For the North, the war has never ended.

I think Rummy is wanting to implement a lot of what you suggest. They have the money & manpower to defend themselves. There's no way the North & South could go toe to toe if the South were to put some real effort into defending themselves. Comparing their GDP numbers is laughable.

[WARPIG]

That majority you were talking about is a bunch of college students. If you know a little about asian culture.. protests are kind of a fad. Just like the American hippies liked to protest everything.. asian students tend to protest. I do agree that we don't need to be there anymore but we are working on moving out of there.
I think you were thinking on the right wavelength there cadet but you are definately showing your age.
;) Keeping out of the N. Korean dialogue and not letting them extort us is the way to go. I hope ROK does the same. I have a feeling that ROK may start to give a little as the Nuke program grows and the N Koreans get hungrier.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Age...age has nothing to do with it.....and tens of thousands of protestors chanting anti- American slogans on more than one occassion is not a fad. The fact of the matter is, is that we are in a country that has become more and more anti American. Their current President (Roh Moo-Hyun) got into office by being in line with his people's anti- American sentiment (another example of the same is the Schroeder v. Stoiber race in DE). This young and stupid cadet also has many other former cadet idiots who currently serve in South Korea, many of them have told me about how there are detailed lists of everything that every American soldier has done to a South Korean, everything from beatings to rapes, they are all distributed as propoganda. One also told me a story of how one of his friends was confronted by a demonstrator and stabbed. All of them agree the younger generations are profoundly anti- American and think of American soldiers as trashy people.

Once again, they also have more than enough resources to build a military that could even rival that of ours, but they simply do not want to spend the money. You cannot have it both ways you know.

[Aegirsson]

"My comments sayin that you should stop criticising from the safety of apathy was not."

It is an insult to every human right to give his opinion, even if you don't agree with it.

So your point of view is that the ones who are serving are the only ones who have the right to talk and cristisize ?
Then, they will be the only one who will be able to vote?

"When you choose to do nothing, choose not to act, you have no grounds to criticise those who do."
what? Are you trying to be comic?
So because we are not fighing this war we can't give our opinion?

So you think that because your are in the army it means your opinion about peoples dying is more important than others ? Once again i'm not judging american war tactics, but the price of american, english, polish, australian... lives, who are dying in this war.
Go ask the families of your soldiers that have perished on the iraki ground and we will see how many are always suporting your governement policy.

"What would have happened if the UN had shown some solidarity and acknowledged Saddam was a impending threat to the world?"

They would have lie !
Your governement's proofs that saddam is a threat are all falsified, and you don't even seem to know it.
Your governement is endoctrinating you, making you think that there is only black and white in the world, and that everything against america is black...

"Find the comment that I made about not having nuts and can't fight."

It was not specialy against you, but against all the person who are judging a country because it isn't fighting.

"No one is dying for oil in my country. Your ignorant view and egotistical vanity are what prevent you from having any chance of logical thought.
"
Wanting to avoied a war when it can be is being egoist?
And do you know the meaning of vanity?

"I said to stop critcising those who have the guts to atleast try and affect change rather than sitting on your asses and doing nothing but talk."

Nothing but talk...yes you are probably right, politicians when they manage to have a cease fire between two countries are not doing anything.
I may learn you something but talking is allready an action so this:
"Nothing but talk" is a pléonasme.

Maybe you should think about why UN never really had power!
Maybe because some of your governements policy is: resolve everything by the war.

"If you don't like how it is going.. go and help fix it."

We ask your governement to wait until the UN gives its ******* about the wmd, it didn't and said that we weren't doing anything, then it gived some hypotecic proofs, wich were totally false, and now we should help you?
If you lose three soldiers a day it's only your bad, not our.

"If we are not doing it right.. offer help"

We tried. But you don't seem to know what is diplomatic help.

"We can't have the French making mistakes and being criticised can we?"

Your are not cristizing us, your are judging us.

"How could you look down your nose at the vulgar Americans then? "

I never said americans were vulgar, don't be mistaken on me, i am not anti-american like you seem to think it.

" If those methods are the ones you don't like.. tuff."

I allready said what methods i don't like: starting a war on obviously falses proofs, massive bombing civilians ...

"Don't assume to lecture me on what me or my family has sacrificed to keep both my country and the world safer and free. No, we are not fighting the SS. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. My grandfather did however. That same SS that looked to oppress France and the rest of the world. You know.. they were from that country just north-east of France.. Germany, your buddy in the EU now.
I know all about the sacrifice and the price of war. My grandfather and father served. "

Are you trying to be patriotic? Since when are you protecting your country and the world in irak ?
I'm from a military family too, but what did my ancestors isn't applicable to me, the world have changed, i think it's a great thing to be proud about your parents lifes, but it doesn't mean that you are more important than anyone.

Oh and there is a thing that i find pathetic: all this american nationalism about how they lonely handled the axe forces during ww2.
Russians, Brits, frenchs and all allies paid their tribute, but once again you are blinded by your bloody war love: "we losed more mens it means we are better".
One man dying is allready too much.

"The same kind of Tyrants that you say we should have avoided war with in the Gulf. "
Like the ones you put in power in south america?
And you are making way too easy conclusion: because i'm against a war that could have been avoied, i'm against all the wars?

Please, stop comparing you nowadays forces with the men that really died for their country against japan. Japan and Irak are in no way comparable.

"action, and courage"

You make me puke. War is not about courage. Stop watching your stupid movies.
Finding a way to defeat your adversary without any deaths is courage not bombing civilians houses to show your strenght and get some oil.

I'll finish by this: My point of view is not every french's point of view, your isn't all american's point of view, so plz don't judge my country on what i am saying, as i don't judge your.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Hmm....where would you even start to reply or even argue any point of view against ALL of that bull ****.

How about....although some of Bush's intelligence on WMD's was BS, it was one of very few mistakes and I believe that he should be making heads spin with a bunch of forced resignations at all of our intelligence agencies (he should have done that after 9/11). The simple fact of the matter is, is that little by little we are definetly uncovering hard proof of Saddam's terrorist links. Even before the 1st Gulf War he was quoted many times as saying that if we attacked him, he would send terrorists to attack us (I even saw a skit making fun of him and his statements on Saturday Night Live). He has also donated money to Palestinian suicide bombers.

I also believe that in the long run, this war is not about oil, we have oil in Alaska, Russia, off the coasts of the Nordic countries, etc. I think it is about trying to transform the region from a closed minded totalitarian **** hole...to an oasis of democracy and peace.

And about your statements about our history in dealing with countries and installing leaders and help rebuilding them...well we've had some successes (Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc.) and we've had some failures (Iran, South Vietnam, and ummm....FRANCE).

The UN is corrupt and profoundly anti- Israeli and very unfair, it cannot be trusted.

Yes we're a very patriotic people and damn proud of it too, atleast we have something that is worth fighting for and believing in.

Yes we do judge other countries, just as how other's judge us, even before we started judging them.

All of that other B.S. I've just forgotten, cause that's what it was...bull ****!

[WARPIG]

Are you sure your French and not from frigging Mars? I hate to monopolize this forum but I will answer everyone of your idiotic questions.


Bye the way.. thanks for proving my point. Any one who reads your response can see how French vanity takes precedence over basic logic.

[Luxembourger]

Sorry to say it, but it is not so simple!
I am french, I don't love USA, as i don't love Uk, as i don't love India, as i don't love Congo etc...
I love my family.
I think it's too easy to say: this person don't think like me, i am for war in irak, he is not, it means he is anti-american!
That's totally false!
Because i don't love a country doesn't mean i hate it!
.

I think you didn t uderstand what I meant .
I wanted to say that by disagreeing on the WAr in Iraq does not mean one is anti-american . You said you don t love the US, UK etc...but your family...I don t know but this makes no sense everyone love it s family even if he has a passion for a foreign country as I do for the US. And speaking for you country I wantd to make understand people that it s only some politicians in FRance and some radical left-wing groups and intelctuals and college teachers. that are really hardcored anti-americans.

I think you are anti american because you were already speaking of the fat ass of the American guy in this forum which post you didn t like.

Just one thing,, at our universityi n FRance students are being given by education associations (MGL) ( association who cares for students and help for their studies) MC Donald tickets (to get a burger for cheap) ...so if the french were so anti american they would not distribute those tickets
to students..

[Haiw]

How 'bout we just start WW3; Europe vs. the US... so we can settle this once and for all. ;)

[Luxembourger]

hat there is only black and white in the world, and that everything against america is black...



Black and white in my opinon does exist. and soon the balck siide will soon hit Europe too if we continue to think that evil does not exist and the terrorists are only against the Americans.

Evil does exist in this world ,,,and I think living in the 21st century wars against every dictator ship must be given green light ! even if the dictatorship does not a pose a threat to another country,,,the dicttatoships around this world are a threat to its own people !

it s like if King Louis XVI were still in power in FRance today and people were not daring a revoltuion against monarchy because they were scared that people would die during a revolution

We saw the end of Absolute monarchies in the end of 18th century and I would like so an end to all oppressive regimes in the 21st century !

[Aegirsson]

Luxembourger

I didn't speak about anyone's ass.

what i meant about the love thing is that you said three exemples :
"1-love america, agree with it
2-love america, disagree with it
3-hate america"

But it is not true.
Why are you saying that there are 2 kinds of french: the one who loves and the ones who hates america?
I mean it is not so simple: it is not because you disagree a country's politics that you hate it, and not because you agree that you love it.
most of the french are just indifferent, i mean i see america like i see india, or china, or uk...i don't judge the country and it's culture, i cristisize one of it's politics between thousand of others.

you get it ? Sorry if i don't write your language very well.

[TriggerPuller]

How 'bout we just start WW3; Europe vs. the US... so we can settle this once and for all. ;)OK!

TP

[Haiw]

Next tuesday good with you?

[TriggerPuller]

Next tuesday good with you?Isnt tuesday the Cannabis cup finals over there, maybe wednesday though. Let me check my ass kickin schedule! :D

TP

[WARPIG]

I change my mind.. I can't even fathom the stupidity of aegirsson's comments. He is truely a hateful soul and no amount of intelligent dialogue will educate him.


My cadet friend however.... I can understand your distaste for the S. Korean protesters. Lumping them into the general public is a mistake.
Tens of thousands is an exaggeration.. and even if it were completely true.. tens of thousands of American students go to a College Football game every weekend.
Your from Dahlonega, right? Any exposure to the Ranger trainees? Ask them how many soldiers are assaulted and and wronged by the indigneous population of Fayettevill NC. At least half a dozen times I have been insulted, assaulted, and once robbed because I was an American soldier.
Keep things in perspective my littler Officer larva. ;) Age does not have anything to do with it.. it did accomplish my intent to razz you though. Experience is a factor though.

To the rest of the French that I may have offended. I know that Aegirsson does not represent the rest of you. If I tend to use words like "French vanity" and such I apologize. Aegirssons lost grasp on reality is just a reflection of his own stupidity and hatred.

I do however believe that the Anti-American sentiment with the French is unjustified. I do believe that any criticism from Europe has no merit unless they have a solution or at the very least attempt to contribute.

[Loco]

Black and white in my opinon does exist. and soon the balck siide will soon hit Europe too if we continue to think that evil does not exist and the terrorists are only against the Americans.

Evil does exist in this world ,,,and I think living in the 21st century wars against every dictator ship must be given green light ! even if the dictatorship does not a pose a threat to another country,,,the dicttatoships around this world are a threat to its own people !

I think you went too far. YOU have no right, nor any in this world, to invade a foreing country because is ruled by a dictatator, being that man inoffensive for the rest of the world, there are cases and cases, and the history is looooong, and you must wonder in every case why there is a dictator in that country, who supported that dictator or if it was a dictator in that country before the one is now. In resume: I would fight against any louxembourger or american with any resources I´d have if in 1964 a foreing force of democracies invaded Spain for liberating us of Franco, well, the problem is in 1964 I wasn´t born, that´s what I´d do if I were adult in that time. And certainly I don´t like Franco´s regime, but because spanish liberated ourselves is that we owe nothing to nobody and we had a transition to democracy basically peaceful, other thing different was in 1945, that democracies could liberate Spain and Franco was shooting every republican prisioner he had, but democracies it seems they were tired of IIWW, and what the hell, republicans were reds. The question in that matter is that the liberator always presents a bill to pay for the liberated country, in dollars and in blood, and usually the blood is paid by civil people, and of course in anyway you are the one who can decide that a foreing country must be liberated. Another historical example: Napoleon invaded Spain in 1808 in theory for liberating spanish of the ancient regime, the truth was Napoleon pretended pull french border 200km to the south and conquering Catalunya, naming his brother king of Spain and using spanish resources for the France´s worth, no doubt Napoleon´s brother have more advanced ideas that spanish kings, but spanish people thought that new ideas were good, not the people that brought that new ideas that´s why they fought "french liberators". So, never in your mind think in "lilberating" countries like Cuba or so. And of course, there is Black and White and a big range of Greys, and I do not love any other country than my country, even is far for being perfect, but what the hell, is my country. I do like others countries, I don´t love them, I can love foreing people, not their countries. Every country has his own experience, so not always universal laws can be used, and there isn´t any democracy innocent enough for deciding who deserves the privilege of being bombed for being liberated.

[Kitsune]

I am just thinking about this...

A Luxembourg/American Alliance invading Spain in 1964 to free the country... rofl

On which side would the French have been?

[He219]

http://www.metrospy.com/pictures/225_trash_america.gif




;)

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Well warpig, thank you for your advice oh wise older army dude...haha. Yes, I currently attend North Georgia Military College (the #1 rated Senior Military College for the Army...HOOAH!) and we go to Camp Merrill (the Ranger Training base) quite a bit, in fact, nearly everyone on our staff here are rangers, green berets, and even a couple former delta force members...I've heard some talk about Korea with mixed feelings, but none of them really had anything positive other than it was a good place to get stationed at compared to some of the other bases (lots of things to do). But I agree with you completely, no, you cannot lump everyone together as a majority. However, polls clearly show that a little over a majority are essentially in one way or another anti-American. About the protestors, I just got reading an article about an anti- US protest in which 37,000 people were there. But other than that, like in Turkey, I believe that polls show there are usually a 10% of the population who are all for America, but once again, you cannot lump them together right.

Other than that, I will not be able to respond to any of your comments for the next couple days, we're going out on an FTX to do gay ass survival training and probobly land nav. But I've enjoyed debating with an old army relic...just kidding.

GO ARMY!!!

[Loco]

http://www.metrospy.com/pictures/225_trash_america.gif

;)
Ok, bring back european cultural influence in America.
But don´t forget America and Americans are those of the photos, the rest is european inmigrant trash:

http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels/peru2.jpg
http://www.camara.cl/vist/conchile/imagenes/mapuche.jpg
And I say I´d never help to liberate Louxembourg or USA if in any bad day they decide themselves being ruled by a dictador, p-)

[TriggerPuller]

[quote=Luxembourger]

I think you went too far. YOU have no right, nor any in this world, to invade a foreing country because is ruled by a dictatator{quote}



If said Dictator is a threat to a certain Country's national security you sure as hell do!!!!!!!!!!!!! As for the rest of your post I havent got a friggin clue what you are trying to convey!!

TP

[TriggerPuller]

http://www.metrospy.com/pictures/225_trash_america.gif

;)
Ok, bring back european cultural influence in America.
But don´t forget America and Americans are those of the photos, the rest is european inmigrant trash:

http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels/peru2.jpg
http://www.camara.cl/vist/conchile/imagenes/mapuche.jpg
And I say I´d never help to liberate Louxembourg or USA if in any bad day they decide themselves being ruled by a dictador, p-) I may be Euro immigrant trash but you are a POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TP

[Loco]

I think you went too far. YOU have no right, nor any in this world, to invade a foreing country because is ruled by a dictatator{quote}



If said Dictator is a threat to a certain Country's national security you sure as hell do!!!!!!!!!!!!! As for the rest of your post I havent got a friggin clue what you are trying to convey!!
TP

You haven´t got a friggin clue because you don´t read all, that´s all

YOU have no right, nor any in this world, to invade a foreing country because is ruled by a dictatator, being that man inoffensive for the rest of the world



I may be Euro immigrant trash but you are a POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:roll: I am afraid that in addition to being Euro immigrant trash, also you are a POS being what is that it means this word! and definitively you aren´t like the Araucanian one of the photo, the best warriors there has been in America ever. I limited myself to answering to He219, without I should feel hurt by him, simply his post seemed to me being funny though unmotivated, and I answered in the same way. Good night, Trigger, I advise you to keep the tuning in key of irony, in this way is OK, do not insult, with more motive if you limit yourself to reading the half of a post.

[ibstolidude]

Triggerpuller - him say you no good for the white man likem oil big chop chop.

[TriggerPuller]

Loco, you are a comedian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TP

[TriggerPuller]

Triggerpuller - him say you no good for the white man likem oil big chop chop. Thanx for the translation I was beginning to wonder if my meds had kicked in!!

TP

[TALOS]

Ill agree there is alot of Anti-American bs, but its always the same 4 people. Its not right to single out all europeans, when of the 4 anti-american bitchers only 2 are european, and the others Canadian.


I have found that the good majority of Canadians are anti american, it becomes very tiresome after awhile. No matter what is said or done by the US, many Canadians criticize them.

As for the French, I think alot of their support for the Iraqi regime revolved around all the rumors and comments about their little behind closed door deals to supply technology (military and otherwise) for decreased oil prices, therefore france is willing to trade American blood (WTO) for Iraqi oil and they didnt want that interrupted.

Aegirsson, for 12 years the UN and the US and other countries had dialogue with Iraq trying to find a peacable solution to the probs there, they didnt rush into it as some may say, Saddam became more and more insane and dangerous as time went on, if you really cared about the Iraqi people you would rejoice in his removal instead of vilifying the US and other nations for doing it.

[Argyll]

Well I like Americans,but some policies are suspect!but I dislike many Eurocrats,they're full of themselves,all this crap about unity,stuff that!! I do not want be part of Hitlers dream from 60 years ago!
I'm Scottish,and I want to keep my Identity..........shove Brussels up yer arse!(and that goes for these sprouts too!!)

[Operation Ivy]

ahahaha Stuntman is Woodland..that stupid liittle kid who made all those dumb comments in the photo section rofl

Weep em man it's America rofl
LOOK! Just because your little tanks in your post can be disabled by the (dam)euro missles the guy is carring to the right of the Ivy tanks doesn't mean you have to join the coat holders list! Please refrain from mocking or calling me a kid! Kids are baby goats get it straight. I am a man! If your still not convinced I'll send you pics but keep the ladies away for fear of instant lust over there private parts...
WOW I'm turning into woodland! here please keep hyde away it hurts to be him..

U sure dont sound like a man in all your comments in the Photo Gallery ;)

[Luxembourger]

I think you went too far. YOU have no right, nor any in this world, to invade a foreing country because is ruled by a dictatator

You are right that no one has a right to invade any country ruled by a dictator who oppresses and slaughters it s own people .
I am glad that Spain liberated itself from FRanco and Portugal from SAlasar and that no froeign invaded it to liberate those countries. And I think at that time European states were too preoocupied with the cold war thing than with the right-wing dictators in Spain and ...( I don t know if in Portugal the dictator was left or right).
But if today there were still a dicatorship in SPain and that majority in people wanted to get rid of it I think that other european nations would have liberated it,,,,. One question : if SPaid never had the possibility to liberate itself would you have agreed then that spain would have been liberated by a foreign country or would you have preferd the continuation of the dicatorship.
what do you think?


as for getting rid of dictators even by force , that will always remain my opinion even if it s not allowed to attack a sovereign country

Dictators are relics of the 20st century and have no place in the 21st century


AS for Luxembourg invading a foreign country to liberate it ,,,well it sounds a little bit unrealistic :-)

[Haiw]

If it was the objective of the thread starter to get another Euro-US flame going I'd say he pretty much succeeded... :roll:

It's time for a new common enemy; any objections against Madagascar? :D

[TriggerPuller]

If it was the objective of the thread starter to get another Euro-US flame going I'd say he pretty much succeeded... :roll:

It's time for a new common enemy; any objections against Madagascar? :D Then we go after the Canary Islands! Loco may object to this as I believe they are still Spanish ruled(FYI its a small island off of africa) :D

TP

[marktigger]

ANti-Americanism well were do you start.
Having spent 6 months deployed with US troops i have to say my attitude to America has altered. Some of the individuals I met were fine people but it was attitudes and arrogance that really put me of example British troops have access to welfare phones and internet which they pay for directly out of their salaries. As soon as the local American units found out they trucked guys in from miles around to use them to the point were british troops couldnt get access. When we complained to the american units the attitude that came back was almost as if it was their facilities. When we deployed the orders were given for our mobile phones to be handed in on orders from above yet americans still had and used theres. when the draw down of communications started the first net sites blocked was our E-bluey letter service. When we moved into Iraq and welfare came back online again yet again American units swamped our welfare facilities. We eventually took to telling them to leave which did not go down well. If the facilities were being provided for free to us as well i don't think we'd have minded but we were having to pay for them.
It was the whole attitude that if its here its our right to use it that really started pissing us off.

[Haiw]

Then we go after the Canary Islands! Loco may object to this as I believe they are still Spanish ruled(FYI its a small island off of africa) :D

TP
Canary Islands is big on tourism, so the world would propably care too much about them. We need something more 'isolated' and that no one really cares about...makes things easier. :)

Oh wait that brings me to a better idea than Madagascar...how about the entire continent of Africa? :D

[Groove]

http://www.metrospy.com/pictures/225_trash_america.gif

At least Europe have a culture and a history....

Greetings

Groove

[usa320]

AS wrong as this is, its funny as hell.

http://www.metrospy.com/pictures/225_trash_america.gif

rofl rofl rofl

As for saying America has no clture, thats absurd. America has more culture than a single European nation would have. the Americas are a god damn melting pot for every culture imaginable.

[Haiw]

Oh god melting pot culture... Just like with paint; you throw in all the beautifull colours and you always end up with some ugly brown... p-)

[He219]

http://www.movieclub.com/reviews/archives/99austinpowers/austin2.jpg
"Melting Pot, that's absolutely Shagadelic!"

;)

[TriggerPuller]

Then we go after the Canary Islands! Loco may object to this as I believe they are still Spanish ruled(FYI its a small island off of africa) :D

TP
Canary Islands is big on tourism, so the world would propably care too much about them. We need something more 'isolated' and that no one really cares about...makes things easier. :)

Oh wait that brings me to a better idea than Madagascar...how about the entire continent of Africa? :DCant do it my mentor and former Force Recon Colonel/surrogate father of mine runs all the security for the U.S. embassy in Monorovia,Liberia. If I get him out first then Iam all for it!!!! :D

TP

[Haiw]

Then get him out and let the games begin... :lol:

Or maybe the giant US offensive could start from Liberia with a surprise attack by embassy security forces? :) At the same time we could have Euro forces make a Paris-Dakar like thrust trough Gibraltar and then meet up somewhere in between in Mauretania or something to join up for a continued joint ass-kicking effort.

Now that's what I call fighting for unity and world peace woot

[budanski]

That majority you were talking about is a bunch of college students. If you know a little about asian culture.. protests are kind of a fad. Just like the American hippies liked to protest everything.. asian students tend to protest. I do agree that we don't need to be there anymore but we are working on moving out of there.
I think you were thinking on the right wavelength there cadet but you are definately showing your age.
;) Keeping out of the N. Korean dialogue and not letting them extort us is the way to go. I hope ROK does the same. I have a feeling that ROK may start to give a little as the Nuke program grows and the N Koreans get hungrier.

They start off as students only to grow up and run their own country (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/01/17/2003091706) ;)

[Solace]

I don't think it's anti-americanism in the sense of European people vs Nth american people. Id say most anti-american comments are aimed at the Military/industrial complex and their attitude to foreign relations. But this is my second post, so what the hell would I know.

[Aegirsson]

"I don't think it's anti-americanism in the sense of European people vs Nth american people. "

That's the problem.
When you say anything about them americans, they are screaming : "Oh he is anti-american!".
I don't know if they understand that we are just against one policy between thousands...


" for 12 years the UN and the US and other countries had dialogue with Iraq trying to find a peacable solution to the probs there"

It's false, US has always mined the peace effort in moyen-orient, it all begins with the embargo. And for the last ten years the only ones who killed civilians in Irak, were the USA.

And for the person who spoke about culture, you don't seem to know the meaning of this word: like when your bombs hit museums where the firsts writing relics (thousand years old) were in storage.

You make me laugh with your "melting pot", what is that ?
The culture of your gangs, killing each others?
All the murders, the psychopaths ...?
Please, shut your mouth about culture, because you haven't any.

Are you trying, with irak, to make us forget all the things that your governement and your cia agents are doing? Your country is defending slaving, dictatures, and human exploitation.
You are hunting the elected leaders, and replacing them by armed dictators wherever you can to defend your interests... So please, keep your big freedom speaches for your 15 years old children, who think USA as they see it in your movies.

You are saying us that, after Irak you are going on Iran?
But who has put in power Shah Reza Pahlevi, who has trained his national guard? His national guard who brutalised iranians to defend your petrol.
You did it in Chili, Nicaragua, vietnam, and in many more south-americans countries.
And i can had something that i lived: in algeria, when the army was killing hundreds of villagers, and tried to say that the terrorists did it all, guess who trained them, guess who leaded them on their bloody attacks?

Now let's speak about Afghanistan, your big war against terrorists (that you have trained and armed), you are saying that you have free the country? Lies, most of it is against in talibans hands.

Now you can say me that France and other countries did bad things, but at least they didn't held this speach: "we are fighting for freedom".

[ibstolidude]

I don't think it's anti-americanism in the sense of European people vs Nth american people. Id say most anti-american comments are aimed at the Military/industrial complex and their attitude to foreign relations. But this is my second post, so what the hell would I know.
This may come as a shock to you,

the US military has no foreign politics...it is driven by the government..

that is kinda the whole deal with a democracy, the military isn't in charge.

[Luxembourger]

It's false, US has always mined the peace effort in moyen-orient, it all begins with the embargo. And for the last ten years the only ones who killed civilians in Irak, were the USA.


WOW rofl

[perdurabo]

Then get him out and let the games begin... :lol:

Or maybe the giant US offensive could start from Liberia with a surprise attack by embassy security forces? :) At the same time we could have Euro forces make a Paris-Dakar like thrust trough Gibraltar and then meet up somewhere in between in Mauretania or something to join up for a continued joint ass-kicking effort.

Now that's what I call fighting for unity and world peace woot
Yeah a big safari! with shooting out afro-africans :fork: kill them all lets start a race who kills more of them and with better style ...

[NcDeuce]

LOL....here is your anti- Asian comment....South Koreans are good for nothing back stabbers. We should only stay there until all of the old South Korean war veterans are dead and then we should leave South Korea to the mercy of the North...

I hope you are kidding. Look into how many times South Korea has backed us up in the past. (After the Korean war) Look into how ROK treats our vets better than we do! Even with the North Korean extortionist on their back door they still manage to send a few troops to Iraq with us.
I don't know if you were kidding or someone pissed in your Coco Puffs. Can you explain that?



Besides...they're rich as hell, why do we have to defend them??? They can raise an army atleast as good as the North's and they definetly have the money and especially the technology....do we have to do everything around this house...now go get me my beer bitch!

rofl Nice one. But you do have a point about the difference between the generations in the South. The older folks remember the war & Seoul changing hands many times etc. All the kids know is a life of privilege & plenty (I guess that could be said for a lot of Western societies). For the North, the war has never ended.

I think Rummy is wanting to implement a lot of what you suggest. They have the money & manpower to defend themselves. There's no way the North & South could go toe to toe if the South were to put some real effort into defending themselves. Comparing their GDP numbers is laughable.

One question ng, have you been to South Korea? It is just like any other developed country in that it has patches of vast urban development and in others rundown ghettos. That was a truly ignorant comment you made at the start, The South Koreans are one of the biggest supporters of the USA and just like the man said...look at all the stuff we have from Korea.

The stories you see of people being pissed off at the Americans is mostly from people who are pissed off at some American GI raping a woman. I mean how would you like it if foreign troops did this?

I do believe they need a better health care system...When I was there a long time ago, I was goofing off with some friends after school...this was far off the military base...I busted my head wide open and was bleeding profusely all over the damn place. My mom threw me on her back and sprinted about 2 or 3 miles to the nearest clinic (not hospital).

[Solace]

Exactly, when the military takes over you no longer have democracy. Thats what I said. Look around you and see who's got the biggest stick, and who's using that stick to take other kids lunch money.

[rom2]

as i'm french i think it would be interesting if i'll describe the state of mind of people here .
first of all , french like american people (probably more than they like italians or spanishes) but the fact is that french dont approve and dont agree with the american governement especially on some topics like iraq , kyoto , antipersonel mines ....;
but you american , seems to support your governement whatever it does.
we are about to think "if another adolf hitler takes the american 's governement , american will say : we dont like him but we support our troops and our goverment's actions " .
that's also true that we french aren't very patriotic and dont like our governement whatever it is .But we believe that a decision taken by a group of people is always better than a decision taken by a single person (democracy's princip).
so we are particurly outraged by washington when it decided to go Iraq , without France .(because we hated Saddam hussein too )
to sum up , there is no anti-americanism , but we french are very sad that our old bro America cheated us .

[cut]

but we french are very sad that our old bro America cheated us .

and vice versa, they're old republican allies, went a different way so now they call you cheese eating surrender monkeys :roll:

Rule Britannia :D

[venture160]

hey i welcome ANY opinion here, it just makes this forum more interesting, and you can learn more everday from differen't people's opinions. WHERE ELSE can you talk about Indian arms transfers with american's, a few russians, some finns and britts and israelis? i think this place is awesome becuase of the differing opinions, and ANYONE WHO THINKS PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH AMERICAN POLICY IS STUPID, seriously needs to step outside the box and take a loot at themselves, you'll realize you look pretty stupid from the outside.

[rom2]

THAT'S PRETTY GOOD .

military photos is really a good place.
and moreover i think a soldier who is open minded and used to understand different opinions is better than a patriotic "my country is always right " one


to answer you cut , i ll add that it is america who broke the rules , since the war's decision is always taken with everybody and it's very unusual to go alone.

another point i forgot to underline is that , we french , feel like washington wants to punish us . but we didnt make one mistake . we simply have different opinions. so some people (not the intelligent ones) are assimilating washington as the american (and when i remember Bush hadnt been elected by the majority ....). so they yell "we hate american ".
but dont make a mistake : french disagree only with the american governement ;

PS: i think you have the same pbs in USA , (and in every country )[/quote]

[Luxembourger]

french disagree only with the american governement ;

Exactly , but some left wing french students and politicans don t like the American way and the American culture,,there are so many anti-ameircan books in french libraries ... . But I agree that most french people are not anti -american
disagreeing with someone policy does not mean to hate that country.
FRench people are great people so I can t blame them alll

[cut]

THAT'S PRETTY GOOD .

military photos is really a good place.
and moreover i think a soldier who is open minded and used to understand different opinions is better than a patriotic "my country is always right " one


to answer you cut , i ll add that it is america who broke the rules , since the war's decision is always taken with everybody and it's very unusual to go alone.

another point i forgot to underline is that , we french , feel like washington wants to punish us . but we didnt make one mistake . we simply have different opinions. so some people (not the intelligent ones) are assimilating washington as the american (and when i remember Bush hadnt been elected by the majority ....). so they yell "we hate american ".
but dont make a mistake : french disagree only with the american governement ;

PS: i think you have the same pbs in USA , (and in every country )[/quote]

I don't get the feeling they want to punish france so much anymore, but yeah they definately did.

[Kilgor]

Most Americans are annoyed with the french because they had a clear history of supporting Saddam and had interests in keeping him in power.

Despite the moral retoric comming out of Paris, the real reasons they were only looking after their on interests.

[venture160]

i dont think most americans know that much about france's past relations with iraq.

[Kilgor]

i dont think most americans know that much about france's past relations with iraq.

Its a shame they dont.

But of course the left wing just loves the false statement that "America armed Iraq"

France has a long history of supporting Saddam, from Nuclear power plants to fighter aircraft. Chirac one called Saddam "My dear friend".

[venture160]

so did the americans. so i think its about 50/50 with french and american support of the saddamn regime back in the day

[Kilgor]

There is no truth that Americans sold Iraq anything other than civilian use helicopters.

Which constituted 1% of arm sales at the time.


http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPRTS_73-02.pdf

If the US sold arms to iraq, there would be proof of its use. And there isnt.

[TriggerPuller]

so did the americans. so i think its about 50/50 with french and american support of the saddamn regime back in the dayYeah maybe "back in the day". we had a much bigger problem with the Iranians back then if you recall. FWIW I was hit with 3 large pieces of shrapnel,2 in the face and one in the shoulder,from a .50 round that splattered off the front of my position while in a firefight with an Iranian Boghammer. We sunk 2 boghammers that night,pulled up one of them about a month later and the ser#'s on the .50 was one of the ones that we sold to the Iranians for hostages. So I know first hand what "we" did,but it was hardly anything close to nuclear plans or materials. The french did their games after the UN embargo had been in place. If one of my countrymen gets killed from one piece of technology that the french sold or gave the Iraqis after this period then they are the enemy as well. we all know the french government is a bunch of weasels and we have ours too but they have purposely tried to sabatogue our policy's so theirs would never come to light!!!

TP

[TriggerPuller]

There is no truth that Americans sold Iraq anything other than civilian use helicopters.

Which constituted 1% of arm sales at the time.


http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPRTS_73-02.pdf

If the US sold arms to iraq, there would be proof of its use. And there isnt.I just saw your post and have to respectfully disagree with you on this. i have first hand knowledge of some other arms but they were fairly insignificant,Stinger missles being the most dangerous to us at the time!

TP

[Vance]

I've yet to see proof that we sold them any Stingers.

[TriggerPuller]

I've yet to see proof that we sold them any Stingers.Unless you were on these operations then you probably wouldnt,now would you? Just trust me on this one any thing further would start getting into OPSEC violations. Most of the Operation has been declassified so you can find it if you look hard enough!

TP

[TALOS]

It's false, US has always mined the peace effort in moyen-orient, it all begins with the embargo. And for the last ten years the only ones who killed civilians in Irak, were the USA.


What planet are you on? The only ones who killed civilians in Iraq were the USA?
I respect defending your people but thats just outrageous, if you actually believe this then you have had a serious departure from reality and need to do some serious research of info on Iraq, and not written by Saddam or nutcase terrorist sympathizers

[Luxembourger]

Aegirsson wrote:

It's false, US has always mined the peace effort in moyen-orient, it all begins with the embargo. And for the last ten years the only ones who killed civilians in Irak, were the USA.

:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: rofl rofl

[rom2]

the fact is that it is true that Chirac (he wasnt president at that time )sold some weapons , and tried to build a nuclear reactor (bombed by the israelian) . it 's a shame for France , i agree.
but keep in mind that every governements in the world have been doing the same things . and as USA is the biggest country in the world (economicaly , military....) USA especially lied to protect it interests.
remember before GULF WAR I , USA said Iraq's army was the fifth of the world..... BIG LIE .USA sold weapons to talibans.....
but you have to agree with me : even if France had sold many Mirages 2000 and missiles ... it wouldnt have prevent USA to win .
France hated Saddam Hussein , it's too bad that Chirac didnt say it enough last year (seems like some boys here think france liked Saddam ).
But France believed (and i think it's true ) that if we (i mean NATO, UN)go to war and get Saddam it will put the country in fire . NOW , what is happening in Iraq ? you can't say USA won . USA has just started the REAL war .AND IT WAS THAT WAR FRANCE WANTED TO AVOID .

[Miles Teg]

We sold weapons to Iraq.
yes.
And we were here with US in the first war in Iraq. Against our weapons.

And if the proof we sold something during the embargo as the same consistence of the proof of MDW... ;)

It's history, like US selling/giving weapons and training to taliban. Everybody make mistakes.

Don't say : Make what I say but not what i'm doing.

[ibstolidude]

It's history, like US selling/giving weapons and training to taliban. .

The US DID NOT train the TALIBAN or give weapons to the taliban.
regardless of how you atttempt to word it or use selecetive history...

The only way you will get by in this arguement is the possibility that some of those muj trained by PIS and the US went on to be supporters or work under the Talibs..that still makes your comment false.

[Miles Teg]

The US NEVER trained the TALIBAN.
Good precision, thanks.

You see how it's annoying to bore false allegations?

Now, where are the evidences of France-Irag trade during the embargo?

Can you remember me the time lapse of the embargo?

[Miles Teg]

i'm here to discuss, don't take it so seriously. ;)

I see you correct a little your post, thanks.

[ibstolidude]

The US NEVER trained the TALIBAN.
Good precision, thanks.

You see how it's annoying to bore false allegations?

Now, where are the evidences of France-Irag trade during the embargo?

Can you remember me the time lapse of the embargo? - this has never been an arguement of mine but:


The 101st dicovered French-made Roland 3 missile system, complete with radar, computer and fire control electronics..the ROland 3 was deployed in 1995. - that could be cause for speculation and warrant further investigation.. ofcourse it is possible the weapons came through illegal/mafia means.

Also forces in Iraq have discovered French bomb fuses with a production date of "2001-Sep-5." The French-made aerial bomb fuses had documentation noting that the devices were produced in 2001.

The Aussie forces discoverd a cache of Roland 2's but they could have come from before the embargo.

[cut]

clearly american bollocks then, if it were french the date would be 5-Sep-2001. Either you made that date up or they did. p-)

[Miles Teg]

Interesting. So this is another discover than the one made by the Polish unit. Can you give me some link where I can search information on this?

But I don't think that anyone in France would be glad to sell anything lethal to Iraq since the first war.

And yes, Cut remark is pertinent, the date format is not the same. But I don't consider the "" date which you probably written by memory.

And about the time laps of the embargo? 91-2004?

[ibstolidude]

actually it was the POlish if I recall correctly to find the "3"'s the 101 found "1"s...

Pictures:

http://www.digitalstar.com/stolidude/images/295554.JPG

http://www.digitalstar.com/stolidude/images/295555.JPG

[Miles Teg]

Sure we can't rely on thess pictures, I hope the identification work was made by specialist. Not by journalist or common operator giving conclusion from a "2001" wrote somewhere on a paper.

Note the "Year of manufacture 1987" on the box.

Yes, I hope they didn't rely only on the paper...

[ibstolidude]

Sure we can't rely on thess pictures, I hope the identification work was made by specialist. Not by journalist or common operator giving conclusion from a "2001" wrote somewhere on a paper.

Note the "Year of manufacture 1987" on the box.

Yes, I hope they didn't rely only on the paper...
as I stated more investigation would be warranted...even the title I gave the picture refers to the date on some boxes marked 87 yet the manufacture date reflects 2001 as reportedly does the shipping documents.

regardless of this and the others weapons found (as posted earlier) I was only aswering your question..

I feel it is as misleading as people saying the US violated the Arms Embargo when in fact the evidence does not support it definatively.
I think all of this is circumstantial at best and fails to show any definative malicious intent on the part of the French government. As I stated this is what people base their arguement on, but it is NOT my arguement.

[Miles Teg]

Ok,
I feel glad to broke this wall of silence and incomprehension between us. :D

We have the same conclusions on the subject. :hug: