Arabic Tops Defense Language School Offerings

[seruriermarshal]

Arabic Tops Defense Language School Offerings

Arabic Tops Defense Language School Offerings
By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service


MONTEREY, Calif., Aug. 11, 2005 – Twenty years ago, when the Berlin Wall still divided Germany and the Cold War was still raging, the unofficial fighting words for most students at the Defense Language Institute here were: "We're learning Russian so you don't have to."
Today, DLI still has a respectable Russian Studies program, but 70 percent of its students are now studying Arabic, Korean and Chinese, according to Army Col. Michael Simone, school commandant. Almost one-third of the school's 3,500 to 3,600 students are enrolled in its three Arabic Studies schools.

Retired Air Force Master Sgt. Ken White began his military career as a Russian linguist but switched to Arabic after the Gulf War, when all eyes began to focus on the Middle East. Now, as a military language instructor at DLI, he sees that Arabic has "only become more in demand," with an increasing student load and ever-higher standards in the program of instruction.

Ismail Bolotok, a native of Syria, was among just 18 Arabic instructors when he joined the DLI staff in 1975. Today, he's among 300 Arabic instructors at DLI, and their student load has increased tenfold, to about 1,000.

"We're the king of the hill now," said Bolotok, now a team leader who serves as a coordinator between students, teachers and the department chair.

Arabic is among DLI's more difficult languages, with a whole different set of rules from English and other Germanic and Romance languages. Arabic text runs from right to left and the grammar is ordered differently from English, Bolok explained.

So to teach Arabic to a native English speaker, "You almost have to take the student's head and twist it around," he said.

The 63-week program of instruction, taught at a third- and fourth-year college level, requires hard work on the part of students and "patience, persistence and caring" from instructors, Bolotok said.

Unlike in the past, when students learned by memorizing scripted texts, DLI now uses "a very global approach" that relies heavily on authentic Arabic newspapers, broadcasts and Internet materials. They regularly listen to and read these materials, which instructors say better reflect the style of Arabic they're likely to encounter on the job and in the streets.

Authentic materials help students grasp not only Arabic language skills, but also an insight into the Arabic culture. They show students" how the Arabs view world events," White said, an understanding that will help them immeasurably when they report to their units.

"People in the field say it's so important to have an understanding of the culture and the religion," White said. "And if you don't understand that, all you have are just words."

Marine Lance Cpl. Ray Richards, who will graduate from the Arabic Studies program in February, said his class has moved beyond simply learning words and making direct translations. Now, an assignment is likely to involve evaluating an Arabic cartoon and writing an explanation of what message they believe the cartoonist was trying to get across.

Reaching that level of comprehension takes time - six to seven hours of classroom work a day, and at least two hours of homework every night. But to keep pace with the instruction, Richards said he takes extra time every day to read and listen to Arabic news.

"A lot of it is self-discipline. You have to make sure you're putting in the time you need to learn what you need to learn," Richards said. "If you're spending less than two-and-a-half hours a night on Arabic work, you're probably not putting in enough time."

Bolotok said better teaching methods and more use of computers and authentic materials in coursework is proving "far more successful" than the old "assembly line" method of instruction. "We're very comfortable that when a student graduates, they can go out and manipulate the language," he said.

And instructors and students alike recognize that DLI graduates need to have a firm grasp of their new language when they report to their units and in many cases, deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan.

"I can't let them go to the field without knowing they have the skills and language levels they need," Bolotok said. "If they fail on the outside, they are on the front line between us and the enemy. And is a student 'mis-translates' something and the message gets garbled, your life and mine could be in jeopardy."

Army Sgt. 1st Class David Villarreal, an Arabic military language instructor at DLI, knows firsthand the value linguists bring to their commanders and fellow troops. As a translator for the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Iraq, he provided an important link between the unit and the Iraqi people.

"The colonel relied on us to know the language and the culture, and the Iraqis were very willing to communicate with us," Villarreal said. "In any kind of mission, communication is critical, and we help ensure that that communication could take place."

, Villarreal said he tries to give servicemembers he teaches, who will follow in his footsteps, a glimpse into what will be expected of them when they arrive at their units.

Army Pvt. Krystal Bradley, 10 weeks into the Arabic Studies program, said she's working "to absorb as much language and culture as I can" so she'll be prepared for her first assignment as a cryptologist.

"When I joined the Army, I figured that I would be going to Iraq," she said. "I want to be on the front lines, doing what I can and also helping the people of Iraq get back on their feet."

"And I figure that that better I'm able to grasp Arabic here at DLI, the better prepared I'll be to do that," she said.
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From (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug2005/20050811_2399.html)

[el borracho]

woot

Proud grad of the DLI Arabic course. The part they left out though is the 30% wash out rate for students of all ranks, plus once you get done a disturbing number of people get stuck in menial desk jobs and all of that training and tax payer money gets wasted. Typical military...I seem to remember a quote that said "they put the best rifleman behind a desk, and the best typist out in the field." Very applicable in this situation.

And something particular about Arabic: what is taught at DLI is Modern Standard Arabic, something which no Arab speaks natively. Essentially MSA is the form of Arabic in which the Koran is written. Since then the langague has evolved considerably and branched out in different directions there are a myriad of dialects spoken, which the DLI course only mentions, and does not get into any real depth in teaching dialect to students. For example, Iraqi dialect is somewhat straightforward, it has it's style of ****unication and colloquial words and phrases, however Egyptian uses a totally revamped grammar system (which some attribute to the influence of French) as well as unique ****unciation and words. The way the current method is used students may be able to recognize the dialect that is spoken, but will only have a bare minimum of understanding of what's being said. Not good for a langauge where many words sound similar and one word can have various meanings, often times unrelated to each other.

Many of the teachers have degrees in MSA, and the curriculum insists that MSA be taught. But once graduates get out into their real job, they find that they have to relearn much of the language over again. Plus the teachers have a great enthusiasm for their language and therefore stress the importance of speaking as a language skill. This may be true for an officer that will be assingned to an embassy, but the majority of enlisted in all branches will never need their speaking ability to perform their job. Speaking is a skill that naturally builds along with reading and listening, but it does not need to be stressed as much as it is now.

At any rate, the Arabic course at DLI is probably the best anywhere, but they still need to refine the curriculum if they are going to continue to train linguists effectively. As for Arabic, less emphasis on speaking but more on listening, and expand the units that deal with dialect comprehension and recognition.

[Michael RVR]

I'd be up for a course like that, almost got into a course at langs to learn pigin (they speak it in papua and solomons, etc) but couldn't get the time to do it. :cantbeli:

[Flagg]

I'm currently trying to learn Egyptian Arabic and Mandarin Chinese.

I'm finding Chinese to be relatively straightforward and logical to learn and understand. :)

Arabic on the other hand........appears to have a much steeper learning curve thus far for me. :(

[XASA]

Interesting observations about how Arabic is taught at the DLI. The Army was kind enough to send me to two language courses; German, at what was then called the Defense Language Institute West Coast (DLIWC) in Monterey, and a quicky, three-month Vietnamese course at the Defense Language Institute Soutwest (DLISW) at Biggs Field, Ft. Bliss, TX-- which closed down right after the war. After more than thirty years, the German still holds up but I remember just enough Vietnamese to say "Good day, how are you doing?" Like they say, if you don't use it, you lose it.

If you have to attend a military school, I can't think of any better-- and more fun-- than the Defense Language Institute. When I attended DLIWC, the German instructors arranged field trips to wineries and San Francisco, which had absolutely nothing to do with the language.

[Red]

Interesting observations about how Arabic is taught at the DLI. The Army was kind enough to send me to two language courses; German, at what was then called the Defense Language Institute West Coast (DLIWC) in Monterey, and a quicky, three-month Vietnamese course at the Defense Language Institute Soutwest (DLISW) at Biggs Field, Ft. Bliss, TX-- which closed down right after the war. After more than thirty years, the German still holds up but I remember just enough Vietnamese to say "Good day, how are you doing?" Like they say, if you don't use it, you lose it.

If you have to attend a military school, I can't think of any better-- and more fun-- than the Defense Language Institute. When I attended DLIWC, the German instructors arranged field trips to wineries and San Francisco, which had absolutely nothing to do with the language.
Thats old school XASA :D

[Jedburgh]

Bolotok was my Syrian-Dialect instructor - in '89, back when they still taught a separate 16 week dialect course after graduation from the MSA course.

It's a very different world at DLI these days.

The Presidio of Monterey (http://www.monterey.army.mil/index.asp)

The Defense Language Institute (http://www.dliflc.edu/)

229th MI Battalion (http://pom-www.army.mil/units/229thmib/index.asp)

The Foreign Language Training Center Europe (http://www.marshallcenter.org/site-graphic/lang-en/page-fltce-index-1/showfirst/xdocs/fltce/resource-menu-docs.htm) in Garmisch, Germany runs a short, intense Iraqi Dialect course. Only a tiny percentage of DLI-trained Arabic linguists get the opportunity to attend - most of'em get the immersion version. But its a great place to be - southern Bavaria, right at the foot of the Alps....

[Royal]

In the UK (both at DSL and the other schools) we're largely taeching Iraqi Arabic from the start, although the wash out rate still applies, and the end result is patchy to say the least (largely due to the courses being too short). Dari/Farsi is a whole different gang f**k IMHO.

Got to disagree with El Borracho on the speaking - other than listening I think it's the most important skill, but it's very much a horses for courses thing. My gripe is that I've had to work with too many 'linguists' who can listen and read, but can't talk over the years. That said it's something that we're finally addressing.

[Zorro C9]

I'm currently trying to learn Egyptian Arabic and Mandarin Chinese.

I'm finding Chinese to be relatively straightforward and logical to learn and understand. :)

Arabic on the other hand........appears to have a much steeper learning curve thus far for me. :(

I find Chinese pretty straight forward, too.

I'll probably fail and have to take it again next year, though. ****ing lazy bum.

:bash:

[el borracho]

In the US military, the lower enlisted of all branches will most likely end up doing desk job tasks like translations and whatnot. Even troops that get deployed to forward locations are used as a typical soldier, although their extra language knowledge definitely comes in handy. Official jobs like person-to-person translator, interpreter, interrogator, etc. are mainly reserved for NCO's and officers. So, the average troop does not need speaking skills for their main job, however, it is a valuable skill but some teachers over-emphasize it IMO.

[n4292936]

I'm currently trying to learn Egyptian Arabic and Mandarin Chinese.

I'm finding Chinese to be relatively straightforward and logical to learn and understand. :)

Arabic on the other hand........appears to have a much steeper learning curve thus far for me. :( Mate Arabic is great, the script is neat to write and you get to swear like a beduin. Waht more could you want!?

Michael RVR the Monash uni and ADFA run arabic courses if you're interested ( so does UQ for the queenslanders)

I'd agree with Royal, unless your transcribing it, speaking and listening are the most important skills. Once you can do that You'll be able to learn how to read it in less than two months if you dedicate yourself to it.
At one Aus Federal Government agency their first arabic class introduces you to the script and the second class expects you to know it all p-)

[Royal]

In the US military, the lower enlisted of all branches will most likely end up doing desk job tasks like translations and whatnot. Even troops that get deployed to forward locations are used as a typical soldier, although their extra language knowledge definitely comes in handy. Official jobs like person-to-person translator, interpreter, interrogator, etc. are mainly reserved for NCO's and officers. So, the average troop does not need speaking skills for their main job, however, it is a valuable skill but some teachers over-emphasize it IMO.

Fair point.

In the UK (with the exception of SigInters) very few junior ranks are accepted for any form of language training. If we have someone with a particular language deployed to a theatre we use their skills irrespective of rank - until they are proved to be unsuited to a particular type of work (something that happens a fair bit).

[ibstolidude]

woot

The part they left out though is the 30% wash out rate for students of all ranks

Not sure what languages you included. The courses I am familiar with had a about a 60% wash rate.

[ibstolidude]

Interesting observations about how Arabic is taught at the DLI. The Army was kind enough to send me to two language courses; German, at what was then called the Defense Language Institute West Coast (DLIWC) in Monterey, and a quicky, three-month Vietnamese course at the Defense Language Institute Soutwest (DLISW) at Biggs Field, Ft. Bliss, TX-- which closed down right after the war. After more than thirty years, the German still holds up but I remember just enough Vietnamese to say "Good day, how are you doing?" Like they say, if you don't use it, you lose it.

If you have to attend a military school, I can't think of any better-- and more fun-- than the Defense Language Institute. When I attended DLIWC, the German instructors arranged field trips to wineries and San Francisco, which had absolutely nothing to do with the language.
Granted I am aware that this option may not have been possible for you (due to the only recent invention of the airplane ;) ) but too bad ou didn't get to refresh your German at the language school in Garmisch. the Deranged Lust Institute is great but ski-country has some perks.

-edit- oops Jedburgh already brought up Garmisch-

[XASA]

Interesting observations about how Arabic is taught at the DLI. The Army was kind enough to send me to two language courses; German, at what was then called the Defense Language Institute West Coast (DLIWC) in Monterey, and a quicky, three-month Vietnamese course at the Defense Language Institute Soutwest (DLISW) at Biggs Field, Ft. Bliss, TX-- which closed down right after the war. After more than thirty years, the German still holds up but I remember just enough Vietnamese to say "Good day, how are you doing?" Like they say, if you don't use it, you lose it.

If you have to attend a military school, I can't think of any better-- and more fun-- than the Defense Language Institute. When I attended DLIWC, the German instructors arranged field trips to wineries and San Francisco, which had absolutely nothing to do with the language.
Granted I am aware that this option may not have been possible for you (due to the only recent invention of the airplane ;) ) but too bad ou didn't get to refresh your German at the language school in Garmisch. the Deranged Lust Institute is great but ski-country has some perks.

-edit- oops Jedburgh already brought up Garmisch-

LOL! When you are stationed in Berlin, you really didn't want to leave the city to visit anyplace else because it was such a great city to be stationed in despite the Wall and being surrounded by the Russian Third Shock Army. Occasionally, though, we would sign up for a week-long religious retreat in Garmisch that didn't count against your leave, sign in, and then depart for Frankfurt, Munich or Heidelberg for the week, then return and sign out. ASA really treated its enlisted men well and really didn't care how you spent your free time so long as you performed the mission.

[Wakizashi]

well.... former student of the SOCOM run language school at Bragg..... MSA (modernstandardarabic) is like the above person said, abit useless. Yes it gave me to the basic skills i needed to know to relearn the language once i got over here.

... oh yea.... DLI might be a year or so .... but ours was 6 months... which ended up being closer to 5. had to get 1-1-1 speaking/verbal/written. I think DLI is abit higher.... 1.5 or 2 ?

if anyone ever does go to the DLI school and so forth, dont get bent around the axle when you find out a good 25 percent of your vocab.... isn't practical.

[Deuterium]

I went to FLTC twice. Once when it was in Munich(90) and then again in Garmisch(97).

[el borracho]

well.... former student of the SOCOM run language school at Bragg..... MSA (modernstandardarabic) is like the above person said, abit useless. Yes it gave me to the basic skills i needed to know to relearn the language once i got over here.

... oh yea.... DLI might be a year or so .... but ours was 6 months... which ended up being closer to 5. had to get 1-1-1 speaking/verbal/written. I think DLI is abit higher.... 1.5 or 2 ?

if anyone ever does go to the DLI school and so forth, dont get bent around the axle when you find out a good 25 percent of your vocab.... isn't practical.

The minimum scores are 2,2,1+ (listening, reading, speaking). But there has been ongoing talk that they will be raised to 3,3,2. In fact, this may have already happened.

This is outrageous to expect from the average student. Sounds like some desk jockey with shiny things on his shoulders thought "let's raise the bar so we don't make any more intel mistakes." Unless they revamp the curriculum in the way that I suggested earlier then these scores will not happen. The wash out rate will climb enormously (I estimate to 75%) and the military will just have to spend more money retraining those people.

They could leave the course how it is, then give troops more training when they get to their duty station. This might be more practical because they can get skills where they will be appicable to their job. For example, someone in the Air Force who translates written documents does not need the same skills that a Marine who goes house to house in Baghdad looking for insurgents requires. As it is now, personnel get on the job training, which is beneficial but the troop is already at his duty station performing his/her job. So basically they learn as they go along, but the chances for making critical mistakes are there due to the lack of experience.

[Jedburgh]

The minimum scores are 2,2,1+ (listening, reading, speaking). But there has been ongoing talk that they will be raised to 3,3,2. In fact, this may have already happened.
Grad requirements are 2/2/2 for HUMINT, 2/2/1+ for SIGINT and all others. 3/3/2 is the grad requirement for the Advanced Arabic Course.

I strongly disagree with you about an "overemphasis" on speaking at DLI. The place has been controlled by the NSA mafia for decades, and speaking skills have always taken second place to listening. Relatively recently, testing methodology for the speaking test was tightened up, but without a concurrent emphasis in teaching and practing the speaking skills. So, although we've seen a lot of 2+ and 3 scores coming out of basic Arabic in listening and reading the past couple of years, far far too many are still only getting a 1 in speaking. Damn near every single HUMINTer requires a speaking waiver to leave DLI.

I also strongly diagree regarding mission and operational requirements for speakers. Junior enlisted or NCO, any Army AD linguist on the ground in Iraq is going to be used heavily in the speaking role - HUMINT as to be expected, but with the SIGINT mission relatively small in comparison, many SIGINT troops are being used to augment THTs for their linguistic abilities. Of course, they're lacking dialect skills and mission-essential vocab at the beginning, but in the absolute immersion environment, the learning curve is pretty damn steep.

[usafbalad]

I'm so happy I didnt go linguist. My buddy that is a linguist is stuck in a SKIF all day translating stuff he hears on tapes. ****ty.

[Jedburgh]

I'm so happy I didnt go linguist. My buddy that is a linguist is stuck in a SKIF all day translating stuff he hears on tapes. ****ty.
That's SIGINT. Being a headphone head blows chunks. HUMINT is the way to go. ;)

[XASA]

I'm so happy I didnt go linguist. My buddy that is a linguist is stuck in a SKIF all day translating stuff he hears on tapes. ****ty.
That's SIGINT. Being a headphone head blows chunks. HUMINT is the way to go. ;)

Hey, SIGINT sure as hell wasn't a day at the beach, but it sure as hell is more fun than most jobs in the military. ;) We were told only the top 2 percent of those tested were eligible for voice interception duty, which meant the highest profiency pay, biggest re-up bonus and faster promotions. I'm still in touch with several of the guys I worked with listening to the bad guys and, for the most part, we all consider our time collecting SIGINT to have been a lifetime peak experience.

[Red]

I'm so happy I didnt go linguist. My buddy that is a linguist is stuck in a SKIF all day translating stuff he hears on tapes. ****ty.
That's SIGINT. Being a headphone head blows chunks. HUMINT is the way to go. ;)

Hey, SIGINT sure as hell wasn't a day at the beach, but it sure as hell is more fun than most jobs in the military. ;) We were told only the top 2 percent of those tested were eligible for voice interception duty, which meant the highest profiency pay, biggest re-up bonus and faster promotions. I'm still in touch with several of the guys I worked with listening to the bad guys and, for the most part, we all consider our time collecting SIGINT to have been a lifetime peak experience.
Damn XASA,you need to write a book. :D

[el borracho]

I'm so happy I didnt go linguist. My buddy that is a linguist is stuck in a SKIF all day translating stuff he hears on tapes. ****ty.
That's SIGINT. Being a headphone head blows chunks. HUMINT is the way to go. ;)

The Air Force doesn't have that option. ;)

It's basically SIGINT or nothing.

[XASA]

I'm so happy I didnt go linguist. My buddy that is a linguist is stuck in a SKIF all day translating stuff he hears on tapes. ****ty.
That's SIGINT. Being a headphone head blows chunks. HUMINT is the way to go. ;)

The Air Force doesn't have that option. ;)

It's basically SIGINT or nothing.

What's interesting is that you need a Top Secret-Cyrpto clearance-- one of the highest if not the highest-- for most SIGINT jobs but only a Secret clearance for most HUMINT slots. That's not to say HUMINT is any less important, but, having done both, I would personally recommend a SIGINT position over a HUMINT one any day of the week if only because the former is so much more interesting. ;)

[Turhapuro]

How good arabic US troops in Iraq speak at the moment? If some civilian wants to say something to patrolling soldiers or soldiers in checkpoint, will there be anyone who understands or do they have to rely on local translators in everything?

[el borracho]

If the troop is trained as a linguist there won't be a problem. Also it depends on what's being said as well. For instance, say a forgeigner with a good understanding of standard English was to talk to a native speaker. If the native said something like "Hello sir, how are you?" That will easily be understood, but if they said "Yo man, what's going on?" That might be a little confusing to the non-native who learned "proper English" from textbooks. So it all depends on how the native approaches them. People have a tendency to speak to foreigners slowly and more clearly, so I would say that yes, a troop trained in Arabic will have no problem speaking to natives.

They also teach most every soldier and Marine common phrases like "hello," "thank you," "put your hands up," "drop your weapon," and other things like that.

Depending on the severity of the situation, or the status of the people invovled (high ranking officers and top civilian officials) there might be a native translator on hand...also most likely any time cultural issues are a factor. At important meetings both sides usually have their own translator just to make sure the other one gets things right, for accoutability purposes so no one can say later that they were tricked or lied to.

[Jedburgh]

I would personally recommend a SIGINT position over a HUMINT one any day of the week if only because the former is so much more interesting.
Sitting on your ass somewhere with headphones on listening to the bad guys is more interesting than working the populace and developing sources? More interesting than working the residents during a cordon-and-search and picking out the bad apples? More interesting than conducting on-the-spot interrogations in the middle of combat ops - or detailed interrogations at the detention facility? More interesting than debriefing former bad guys turned informants under amnesty?

HUMINT face-to-face interaction with the threat as opposed to SIGINT aural voyeurism. Y'all are a strange crew - especially the Navy submariner SIGINTers. ;)

[XASA]

I would personally recommend a SIGINT position over a HUMINT one any day of the week if only because the former is so much more interesting.
Sitting on your ass somewhere with headphones on listening to the bad guys is more interesting than working the populace and developing sources? More interesting than working the residents during a cordon-and-search and picking out the bad apples? More interesting than conducting on-the-spot interrogations in the middle of combat ops - or detailed interrogations at the detention facility? More interesting than debriefing former bad guys turned informants under amnesty?

HUMINT face-to-face interaction with the threat as opposed to SIGINT aural voyeurism. Y'all are a strange crew - especially the Navy submariner SIGINTers. ;)

Different strokes for different folks. ;) Because of the highly sensititve nature of SIGINT, you won't find people willing to talk about details let alone brag about what they do. I'm also of the opinion that every job in the military-- be it a cook. truck driver or a grunt-- is important, and would never belittle what they do. Like I said, I've done both SIGINT and HUMINT, albeit probably before you were born, and based on my experience, found the former more interesting.

[Erik2a4]

Army Sgt. 1st Class David Villarreal, an Arabic military language instructor at DLI, knows firsthand the value linguists bring to their commanders and fellow troops. As a translator for the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Iraq, he provided an important link between the unit and the Iraqi people.

Worked with the guy when I was attached to 3rd ACR in Nov '03. An absolutely stellar NCO in my opinion, and not just as a linguist, but as a leader. Went on every mission...yet never complained that he needed a rest. Incredible asset, and by far the most overworked man in the squadron.

Just thought I would throw that in there. You old intel guys can continue with the SIGINT v. HUMINT fight. :lol:

[OMEGA7]

IT is so higher debate compare to any other topic! why does they making to write for anyarticle has peculiar thinks who only of long mail ? I'd like to talk about the thinks are very difficult when I am trying to readying of it. Please make me more understand sentences , if you know how could you gave for my favored , but I can not make for my insist because the my english vogue is very lowerlevel

[XASA]

BTW: If you really think SIGINT is a safe cushy desk job, FYI the first American casualty in Vietnam was SP/4 James Davis, who was targeted by the Viet Cong in 1961 because of his radio direction finding skills.

http://www.oldspooksandspies.org/davis/davis.html

There were other casualties in Vietnam, too, but their stories will probably never be told.

http://www.5starpicks.com/asalives/inmemory.html

[Jedburgh]

Different strokes for different folks. ;) Because of the highly sensititve nature of SIGINT, you won't find people willing to talk about details let alone brag about what they do. I'm also of the opinion that every job in the military-- be it a cook. truck driver or a grunt-- is important, and would never belittle what they do. Like I said, I've done both SIGINT and HUMINT, albeit probably before you were born, and based on my experience, found the former more interesting.
XASA, each discipline of intel attracts different types (you didn't like my "aural voyeurism" bit?), and I only responded in that manner due to the way in which you were denigrating HUMINT.

But we all have to work together. Just as HUMINT exploitation can lead to targeting of SIGINT resources, SIGINT collection can be an invaluable aid in HUMINT exploitation. "Synthesis" and "Fusion" of intelligence across disciplines, branches of service, and agencies is becoming more the norm than the exception these days - although, historically, it was always most effectively applyed in that manner anyway.

During the Cold War years SIGINT was definitely more heavily employed than HUMINT, for what should be obvious reasons. HUMINT was pretty much restricted to CI ops and debriefing of defectors and line-crossers, with only brief flare-ups distracting tactical HUMINTers in the conventional Army from the daily grind of motorpool maintenance and training exercises.

In the immediate post-Cold War period, DA saw fit to cut Army HUMINT by more than half, while SIGINT remained virtually untouched. This was more due to effective lobbying on the part of NSA and those who build those "highly sensitive" technical collection systems than any real study of comparative operational effectiveness across the conflict spectrum. Mid-level HUMINT NCOs were offered cash bonuses to get out.

Ops in the Balkans were the first real indicator of tactical HUMINT needs, as they were the initial proving ground for the Tac HUMINT Team concept for conventional forces. Due to the draw-down, many of my peers at the time were suffering back-to-back rotations in and out of theater. However, overall deployments in support of those ops were small enough that the Big Army could afford to ignore such lessons learned.

Then came OEF and OIF. The scale of tactical and strategic HUMINT needs is now impossible to ignore. THT ops have proven absolutely critical to the tactical commander for ongoing ops. All the other INTs feed into HUMINT when conventional forces are combatting an insurgency and fighting terrorism (this is something Army SF has known and addressed for decades, while it had been ignored by all others).

So, now Army HUMINT is tripling in size, and DA is desperately trying to get enough bodies into the field to fill required slots. This is to the point where trainees who enlisted for SIGINT positions are being asked to change over to HUMINT while they are still in language school at DLI.

None of this is meant to "belittle" SIGINT. I recognize the value of SIGINT collection, and I've worked with some sterling SIGINTers over the years. But the real value of HUMINT in meeting the requirements of the current operational environment is beyond debate. However, the relative effectiveness of current training and employment of those assets is still an open question.

[XASA]

Different strokes for different folks. ;) Because of the highly sensititve nature of SIGINT, you won't find people willing to talk about details let alone brag about what they do. I'm also of the opinion that every job in the military-- be it a cook. truck driver or a grunt-- is important, and would never belittle what they do. Like I said, I've done both SIGINT and HUMINT, albeit probably before you were born, and based on my experience, found the former more interesting.
XASA, each discipline of intel attracts different types (you didn't like my "aural voyeurism" bit?), and I only responded in that manner due to the way in which you were denigrating HUMINT.

But we all have to work together. Just as HUMINT exploitation can lead to targeting of SIGINT resources, SIGINT collection can be an invaluable aid in HUMINT exploitation. "Synthesis" and "Fusion" of intelligence across disciplines, branches of service, and agencies is becoming more the norm than the exception these days - although, historically, it was always most effectively applyed in that manner anyway.

During the Cold War years SIGINT was definitely more heavily employed than HUMINT, for what should be obvious reasons. HUMINT was pretty much restricted to CI ops and debriefing of defectors and line-crossers, with only brief flare-ups distracting tactical HUMINTers in the conventional Army from the daily grind of motorpool maintenance and training exercises.

In the immediate post-Cold War period, DA saw fit to cut Army HUMINT by more than half, while SIGINT remained virtually untouched. This was more due to effective lobbying on the part of NSA and those who build those "highly sensitive" technical collection systems than any real study of comparative operational effectiveness across the conflict spectrum. Mid-level HUMINT NCOs were offered cash bonuses to get out.

Ops in the Balkans were the first real indicator of tactical HUMINT needs, as they were the initial proving ground for the Tac HUMINT Team concept for conventional forces. Due to the draw-down, many of my peers at the time were suffering back-to-back rotations in and out of theater. However, overall deployments in support of those ops were small enough that the Big Army could afford to ignore such lessons learned.

Then came OEF and OIF. The scale of tactical and strategic HUMINT needs is now impossible to ignore. THT ops have proven absolutely critical to the tactical commander for ongoing ops. All the other INTs feed into HUMINT when conventional forces are combatting an insurgency and fighting terrorism (this is something Army SF has known and addressed for decades, while it had been ignored by all others).

So, now Army HUMINT is tripling in size, and DA is desperately trying to get enough bodies into the field to fill required slots. This is to the point where trainees who enlisted for SIGINT positions are being asked to change over to HUMINT while they are still in language school at DLI.

None of this is meant to "belittle" SIGINT. I recognize the value of SIGINT collection, and I've worked with some sterling SIGINTers over the years. But the real value of HUMINT in meeting the requirements of the current operational environment is beyond debate. However, the relative effectiveness of current training and employment of those assets is still an open question.

Jed, no harm, no foul. I think you misunderstood my post. In no way was I denigrating HUMINT. When I was in the green machine assigned to NSA, we were all part of what was then called "the intelligence community" with each branch and function complementing the other. I only kicked in my my two cents because you commented that SIGINT collection "hurl chunks" or something to that effect.

I immediately thought of the brave airmen in the U.S. Air Force Security Service who flew SIGINT and ELINT missions over the old Soviet Union, many of whom lost their lives, but didn't get any recognition because of the sensitivity of the mission. I also thought of the sailors in the Navy Security Group who lost their lives on the U.S.S. Liberty or were captured on the U.S.S. Pueblo. I've already noted the soldiers in the Army Security Agency who gave their all.

SIGINT's history is usually written decades after the missions took place if ever. WWII's ULTRA in Europe and PURPLE in the Pacific, are the granddaddies of all SIGINT operations, and are examples of intelligence gathered at the highest level of the enemy's chain of command. The Cold War and the Vietnam War SIGINT missions are still classified, but believe me, they were very, very effective. I have no doubt that those involved in SIGINT today are making a major contribution to the War on Terror, but they can't talk about it not even to their families. That's what makes it more interesting from my point of view. I can well understand why someone would disagree with that conclusion, especially if they prefer to be in the field with the grunts.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that HUMINT was placed on the back burner while billions were invested in SIGINT and satellites back in the day. My HUMINT experience was definitely done on the cheap. I'm glad to see MI is getting up to speed. Sometimes I wish I was back in the fray, but I've done my bit. I probably couldn't keep up with you young studs anyway. ;)