Ammo Left In Mags

[Seraphim]

I remember we had a few discussions about this. I just thought I would create a new thread to add something that just happened to me. Some say it doesnt affect and some people say it does. Some say its the constant loading and unloading (which is what I believe). But I have 2 new .45 mags for my USP I left them loaded for about 1month and now they rattle when fully loaded and in the pistol. It never happened before...so I guess it could be the weakening or set of the mag spring. Downloading by one cures this problem though...which doesnt make much sense. But it works.

[Royal]

Mag springs will always be weakened by being left full. The lower quality spring steel used and the greater the load, the more still will happen.

We aim to take twice the mags we need and rotate them week on/week off with the Op loads (also means you don't need to unload Op ammo for range days). That said I always try to get my springs replaced after a tour - the tame armourers are normally pretty on-side with this.

Bottom line is, if you can avoid it don't leave mags bombed up.

[digrar]

What he said. ;)

[sergey31]

An former local Police armourer said that the spring wears out the most is when compressing it and decomp all the time, He stated that they had loaded Glock magazines that were left from 10 years ago and they fired them without any problems (10 years later). We at work never unload duty mags and every month at the range we use range only mags.

[Herrmannek]

Yup thats true that quality springs(with in case of hk may not be the case :) ) wear&tear more when compresed and decompresesd than when staying loaded. Anyway I bet you haven't noticed it rumbles before :)

[JoaMei]

From what I read is that constantly loading and unloading is bad for the Springs, just keep it loaded is less problematic.

I have three loaded mags with my handgun in the safe, even after more than 5 Years of this I never had a Problem.

[jpg]

I don't know about long term, but my USP9F/AR-15 mags have been fully loaded and used weekly/monthly for the last four years. All that I can report is two FTF in the AR-15. There is always the possibility of bad springs, but not all will be bad. That is why you should have more than one magazine.

[Geezah]

^ What he said on number of mags, I have 27 30rnd D&H mags, 5 20rnd NMHTG mags, 1 10rnd Bushmaster mag, 11 30rnd AK mags, 2 10rnd AK mags, 1 Polish 30rnd mag, 10 15rnd P226 mags, 2 10rnd P226 mags, 3 8rnd P239 mags, 3 10rnd P239 mags, 3 10rnd 10/22 mags and 1 25rnd 10/22 mags. This along with 5 replacement parts kit for the AR mags

Can't have enough mags and with the AWB gone prices have gone down.

Also on the loaded mags, I have 1 AK mag loaded with 20 HPs, been that way for 3years and my carry mags are always loaded but haven't had any problems. On the wear, I have heard the up and down causes the wear in the spring, but as I am not or ever been in the military, I will take those in the knows word as gospel.

[Mark Sman]

Glock mag springs may not be the best example.

They are pretty high quality, and Glock will replace the spring in an original Glock mag for lifetime of the mag.

That said, I rotate mag loads too. I don't care if it is repeated load or constant load that breaks down the spring. I rotate the mags and use the off mags for the range. This way any developing mag problem will be detected, hopefully.

[Flagg]

Mag springs will always be weakened by being left full. The lower quality spring steel used and the greater the load, the more still will happen.

We aim to take twice the mags we need and rotate them week on/week off with the Op loads (also means you don't need to unload Op ammo for range days). That said I always try to get my springs replaced after a tour - the tame armourers are normally pretty on-side with this.

Bottom line is, if you can avoid it don't leave mags bombed up.



What he said. Wink

Royal and Digrar,

What was/is SOP for 30 round SA80/Steyr mags?

Has it differed from Ex to Ops?

I get conflicting info here(Ex only)......with some folks it's 28, others 30

It's not likely we're going to be sitting bombed up for long....but I'm thinking fight as you train.

[digrar]

28 for me, I don't recall ever getting an order one way or the other though.

[sergey31]

Q. Can I store ammo pre-loaded in magazines for an extended period of time? Won't the magazine springs wear out and cause feeding problems? Shouldn't I rotate my mags?
Shouldn't be a problem;

No and;

Probably not.
What wears out springs are cycles of compression and expansion and also over-compression. So, every time you "rotate" your mags, you are causing additional wear by cycling the spring. Loading and unloading magazines will cause more problems than loading and storing them for good. For best results USGI magazines are probably the best bet because many aftermarket magazines use cheap springs.

One AR15.com member reportedly discovered a fully loaded 20 round USGI mag that was loaded in the Vietnam era. 20 some years later it not only functioned fine but continues to do so. Others have reported 1911 mags and Luger mags loaded up since World War II that continued to function perfectly when first fired after 40 years.

When you're ready to pack them away, you can fit 28 loaded USGI 20 round mags in a .50 cal ammo can if you lay them down sideways 4 to a layer. You can also fit 14 USGI 30 rounders this way, with a lot of slack space left over.

.30 cans will hold 14 USGI 20 rounders laid flat without a hitch.












Magazines ready for storage in a .50 ammo can.

Fact: Everything you ever wanted to know about magazines but were afraid to ask you can find in the: AR15 Magazine FAQ or in the Magazine Forum.

Q. Shouldn't I be loading my mags with a few less rounds? If I load them to capacity doesn't that cause reliability problems?
There are three stories about how this got started:

1. If a 20 round magazine was disassembled and reassembled with the spring connected to the follower backwards, it wouldn't feed reliably when fully loaded due to the spring binding in the mag. Downloading the magazine to 18 became a habit in some circles "just in case," though eventually this problem was discovered, and solders were instructed never to separate the follower from the spring, which virtually eliminated this problem.

2. Many magazines can be loaded without obviously excessive force to 21 rounds, and because ammo was issued loose in boxes during the early Vietnam era, this happened frequently. The result was often that the first round wouldn't chamber because it was held too tightly in the magazine. This is not a good thing in a firefight, so early in the history of the M16 it became habit to teach shooters to load 18 in a 20 rounder just to be safe. Again, the root cause was eventually addressed, and ammo began to be issued on stripper clips, which eliminated the need to count individual rounds when loading mags.

3. Some tactical squads download their back-up magazines by one round to make a tactical reload (which is done with a round chambered and the bolt forward) easier. This is because of the reduced upward pressure on the rounds.

#3 is probably the only real reason to consider downloading your magazines, though it is generally not necessary.




From http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#storemags

[Royal]

Royal and Digrar,

What was/is SOP for 30 round SA80/Steyr mags?

Has it differed from Ex to Ops?

I get conflicting info here(Ex only)......with some folks it's 28, others 30

It's not likely we're going to be sitting bombed up for long....but I'm thinking fight as you train.

I always used to use Colt mags (both for M16 and SA80) the old RG ones being so ****e, 28 rounds in the 30 round mags and 15 in my 20 round tracer mag. In the desert that droped to 25 rounds - another good reason to rotate mags - you can clean the crap out of them - something that probably isn't a problem if you keep your gat in a nice gun safe and play on a target range once in a while (or even if you stick it in a covert holster and pretend you're James Bond of an evening).

That said the boys in 40 were carrying 30 round loads in Iraq last year with no major problems (but with regular cleaning). The new HK mags are (IMHO) better than the Colts and streets ahead of the RGs or for that matter the Diemacos (although they are slightly heavier).

[California Joe]

I'm continually amazed that sergey always finds a way to contradict people that have carried weapons in combat.

[digrar]

In the desert that droped to 25 rounds - another good reason to rotate mags - you can clean the crap out of them - something that probably isn't a problem if you keep your gat in a nice gun safe and play on a target range once in a while (or even if you stick it in a covert holster and pretend you're James Bond of an evening).

That's the other thing I forgot, I think it was mentioned in the last thread on this topic.
Apart from a couple of jungle locations everywhere I went was dusty, so we were pulling the mags to bits on a regular basis to clean them anyway.

[Geezah]

If you load your mags with less than 30rnds, how are you guys alerted that you need to load a new mag in a shtf situation, if the load is not consistant?

[digrar]

You know how many rounds you've bombed up with and if you can't count rounds in the heat of the battle you've trained for quick stopage drills.

[Sabre]

If you load your mags with less than 30rnds, how are you guys alerted that you need to load a new mag in a shtf situation, if the load is not consistant?

I'm pretty crap with counting rounds, especially if there's a lot of running and thinking to do at the same time! :lol:

The best way is just to get a 'feel' of how many rounds you've fired and change the mag if you think you need to. You can also drop the mag off and see if it's 'too light' and then change it if it is. All of this can be done on the move, when you wouldn't be firing anyway. I started to do this and after a few times I became quite accurate. When I emptied my mags out of my smock at the end of the drills, there were only one or two rounds in the top. Quite often a mag was empty so the last round had just been chambered when I chose to change it.

You can also just drop the mag off quickly and have a look during a lull, it's good practice to inspect your magazine and weapon like this, as you may be just about to have a stoppage (empty mag) when the fan is switched on again. So there's no real need to know how many rounds are in the mag. The only disadvantage is that you may have a few mags knocking around in your smock with 20 rounds spread amongst them at the end of the contact. Still, it's a lot better than getting shot while getting the old calculator out and the QM will be grateful for the rounds back unused! :lol:

[SamHamam]

...and the QM will be grateful for the rounds back unused! :lol:

QM - grateful - some hope. He'll whine about mixed batches or some such nonesense!

[Sabre]

We can but hope! :lol:

[Royal]

If you load your mags with less than 30rnds, how are you guys alerted that you need to load a new mag in a shtf situation, if the load is not consistant?

I'm pretty crap with counting rounds, especially if there's a lot of running and thinking to do at the same time! :lol:

The best way is just to get a 'feel' of how many rounds you've fired and change the mag if you think you need to. You can also drop the mag off and see if it's 'too light' and then change it if it is. All of this can be done on the move, when you wouldn't be firing anyway. I started to do this and after a few times I became quite accurate. When I emptied my mags out of my smock at the end of the contacts, there were only one or two rounds in the top. Quite often a mag was empty so the last round had just been chambered when I chose to change it.

You can also just drop the mag off quickly and have a look during a lull, it's good practice to inspect your magazine and weapon like this, as you may be just about to have a stoppage (empty mag) when the fan is switched on again. So there's no real need to know how many rounds are in the mag. The only disadvantage is that you may have a few mags knocking around in your smock with 20 rounds spread amongst them at the end of the contact. Still, it's a lot better than getting shot while getting the old calculator out and the QM will be grateful for the rounds back unused! :lol:

Other than count ;) , the other way is to put a couple of tracer in as the 2nd and 3rd rounds as you load a mag. If you put a tracer down range, you need to change mags....

[sergey31]

I'm continually amazed that sergey always finds a way to contradict people that have carried weapons in combat.

:roll:

Not only myself..... Did you read the Q & A article I posted? Those people also think the same and they seem pretty knowledgeable in this area.

BTW I take it as a compliment. It's like I don't need to be a mechanic to know how/when to change oil (No offence to anyone here p-) )

[Seraphim]

If you load your mags with less than 30rnds, how are you guys alerted that you need to load a new mag in a shtf situation, if the load is not consistant?

I'm pretty crap with counting rounds, especially if there's a lot of running and thinking to do at the same time! :lol:

The best way is just to get a 'feel' of how many rounds you've fired and change the mag if you think you need to. You can also drop the mag off and see if it's 'too light' and then change it if it is. All of this can be done on the move, when you wouldn't be firing anyway. I started to do this and after a few times I became quite accurate. When I emptied my mags out of my smock at the end of the contacts, there were only one or two rounds in the top. Quite often a mag was empty so the last round had just been chambered when I chose to change it.

You can also just drop the mag off quickly and have a look during a lull, it's good practice to inspect your magazine and weapon like this, as you may be just about to have a stoppage (empty mag) when the fan is switched on again. So there's no real need to know how many rounds are in the mag. The only disadvantage is that you may have a few mags knocking around in your smock with 20 rounds spread amongst them at the end of the contact. Still, it's a lot better than getting shot while getting the old calculator out and the QM will be grateful for the rounds back unused! :lol:

Other than count ;) , the other way is to put a couple of tracer in as the 2nd and 3rd rounds as you load a mag. If you put a tracer down range, you need to change mags....

Remember tracers work both ways p-)

[HoboWithAK]

Mag springs will always be weakened by being left full. The lower quality spring steel used and the greater the load, the more still will happen.

We aim to take twice the mags we need and rotate them week on/week off with the Op loads (also means you don't need to unload Op ammo for range days). That said I always try to get my springs replaced after a tour - the tame armourers are normally pretty on-side with this.

Bottom line is, if you can avoid it don't leave mags bombed up.

You are wrong. Do the shocks in your truck wear out when they sit in the garage? No. Constant loading and unloading will wear out springs, however, keeping them loaded will NOT hurt them, unless you are using really bad springs. I've NEVER experienced it with any firearm magazine spring in my life, not even the ****ty ones.

[Seraphim]

Mag springs will always be weakened by being left full. The lower quality spring steel used and the greater the load, the more still will happen.

We aim to take twice the mags we need and rotate them week on/week off with the Op loads (also means you don't need to unload Op ammo for range days). That said I always try to get my springs replaced after a tour - the tame armourers are normally pretty on-side with this.

Bottom line is, if you can avoid it don't leave mags bombed up.

You are wrong. Do the shocks in your truck wear out when they sit in the garage? No. Constant loading and unloading will wear out springs, however, keeping them loaded will NOT hurt them, unless you are using really bad springs. I've NEVER experienced it with any firearm magazine spring in my life, not even the ****ty ones.

Yeah but you dont have your truck "fully loaded" do you?

[PrincessRAR]

30 rounds for range or training or exercise here - on operation SOP is 28 - some were carrying 29 some still had 30 - but SOP is 28.

in timor but iraq especially, mags were always ripped to **** and cleaned like ****. just part of the full field strip that so many forget to do.

as for rounds being out - thats an ammunition stoppage..you learn your IA's so you can pound that down in seconds. counting rounds is an art especially when your minds on other things.

[Geezah]

I find this interesting, is this also applied to handgun mags as well?
Do you load those with less rnds than they are capable of holding?

[HoboWithAK]

Mag springs will always be weakened by being left full. The lower quality spring steel used and the greater the load, the more still will happen.

We aim to take twice the mags we need and rotate them week on/week off with the Op loads (also means you don't need to unload Op ammo for range days). That said I always try to get my springs replaced after a tour - the tame armourers are normally pretty on-side with this.

Bottom line is, if you can avoid it don't leave mags bombed up.

You are wrong. Do the shocks in your truck wear out when they sit in the garage? No. Constant loading and unloading will wear out springs, however, keeping them loaded will NOT hurt them, unless you are using really bad springs. I've NEVER experienced it with any firearm magazine spring in my life, not even the ****ty ones.

Yeah but you dont have your truck "fully loaded" do you?

Considering my truck is a quarter ton, and weights 3000 itself, I'd say it gets a workout without the extra toothpicks. Either way, doesn't matter. I've played with lots of magazines, and the only ones i've found that will do that are cheap springs, and even they don't wear out that quickly.

[ogukuo72]

Loading only 10 rounds in a 15 round pistol magazine or 15 in a 30 round SMG or rifle magazine do help them last longer.

I think that other than highly dangerous areas such as Iraq, in most countries, the above loads should be adequate.

I don't know where Sergey got his "fully loaded Glock mag lasts ten years" story, but it sounds fishy. I'm not even sure a fully loaded Glock magazine could last for a year in that condition.

[sergey31]

I don't know where Sergey got his "fully loaded Glock mag lasts ten years" story, but it sounds fishy. I'm not even sure a fully loaded Glock magazine could last for a year in that condition

Read my post and see where I got the story. As a matter of fact, as I stated earlier in my post we don't use duty magazines for range work and we use special designated range ones. That means that some mags have been fully loaded and never used for over 3 years that I know of. Of all handguns I've owned and fired Glock hands down has the best magazines/springs.

Read this article genius, since you want to ignore the one I posted............


Magazine spring madness: 'creep' to your 'elastic limit' to un-earth the urban legend of 'spring-set'
The shooting sports are full of some of the most knowledgeable and capable people you'll meet anywhere. I've been impressed consistently with the abilities of those I meet at the range to diagnose and fix a gun problem with as little as some spray lube and a cotton swab. However, sometimes a myth will creep into the folklore.

The magazine spring myth has been around for many years and is growing in popularity. It goes something like this: "You should unload your magazines when they're not in use or the spring will weaken causing failures to feed." This has gone as far as shooting competitors actually unloading their magazines between stages to extend the life of their springs. A variant of this myth is: "You should never load a magazine to capacity and should always leave it one round short." What if you need that round some day?

Recently, I read an article in a gun magazine suggesting you rotate your magazines so the ones not in use can "recover and rest." The same author uses the phrase "spring-set" to describe weakness of a spring because it was compressed for a long time. Hogwash. There's nothing further from the truth. Springs don't care how long they're compressed and don't require rest, recreation or even a vacation from time to time.

To put this one to rest, you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years. American Handgunner recently ran a story about a magazine full of .45 ACP that had been sitting since WWII and it ran just fine on the first try. So there you go.

Now that the light of truth is leaking out, lets talk about what is causing failures to feed. The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. Both of these could cause feed failures. Shame on you if you're a spring bender.

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

We tell police officers if they keep loaded magazines, take a few seconds to "cycle" the ammo. Periodically unload the mag and reload it in a different sequence. This movement will allow the bullets to be in different parts of the magazine and help eliminate creasing.

At STI, Dave Skinner, President and CEO says, "Personally, I rotate my 'under the bed' and 'under the seat' mags about every six months. I always empty them the 'fun' way and have never had a failure." Given what we learned above, this sounds like a good idea. Smith and Wesson customer service also says magazines can stay loaded indefinitely without hurting the spring.

As we add force onto a spring, it will displace the same amount for each amount of force we add. This is true until the spring passes a certain point called the elastic limit. Robert Hooke discovered this theory back in 1660. Hooke's Law states: "If the applied forces on a body are not too large, the deformations resulting are directly proportional to the forces producing them." Which means, in actual human being language, if we load a spring past its elastic limit, it permanently deforms. It still provides a force against the load but the force is no longer proportional. If this happens, when we unload the spring (such as when we empty a magazine that has been over-loaded) the spring never returns to a state where it can provide the same load for the same amount of displacement.

Trust Us

When a magazine manufacturer designs a spring, they plan for a preload. The spring is already compressed some in the magazine. On the curve below, this would be Point A. The spring compression would be designed to be below the Elastic Limit. When fully compressed, the spring would be at Point B. If the spring is ever compressed past the elastic limit, say to Point C, it won't ever behave the same. Like a recalcitrant lazy Uncle, it will have a lower spring force for each amount of displacement. On the drawing, the spring would now cycle between points D and E. This means that -- particularly with the last bullet or two -- the force pushing the bullet up would be less and lo-and-behold, a mis-feed might occur.

When somebody stretches your spring to "fix" your magazine, they are trying to get you back on the original curve. They may get pretty close, however, it's unlikely the spring will ever perform to its original design. The elastic limit is now shifted lower and your magazine spring may fail to perform fairly quickly.

Having said all this, if you have a magazine that isn't feeding right, what should you do? First, disassemble the magazine and clean it thoroughly. Then try it with new, factory ammunition in a freshly cleaned gun. This takes away some of the possible causes. If you are still having feed problems, send it back. Even the low cost, after-market magazine manufacturers will fix the problem at no cost to you other than shipping. If it's a magazine from the gun's manufacturer, let them troubleshoot and repair the problem. Otherwise, toss the mag. It's not worth risking your life to save a few bucks. And that's the truth.

RELATED ARTICLE: Definitions

Creep: The flow or plastic deformation of metals held for long periods of time at stresses lower than the normal yield strength.

Elastic Limit: The maximum stress that material will stand before permanent deformation occurs.

Yield Strength: The stress at which the metal changes from elastic to plastic in behavior, i.e., takes a permanent set.

Permanent Set: Non-elastic or plastic, deformation of metal under stress, after passing the elastic limit.

Magazine Recommendations

* Clean your magazines when they get gritty. Apply oil then remove all excess. Oil attracts dirt that may cause malfunction.

* If you find rust on the spring, this is culprit. Rust changes the thickness of the metal and reduces the force applied to the follower. Cleaning off the rust may help. For a gun you depend on, replace the spring. All the major brands and most of the smaller ones have replacement mag springs available or try Wolff Springs.

* If you keep a magazine loaded for long periods, rotate the rounds every few months. If you carry a pistol on the job or in your car, cycle the ammo frequently. These actions prevent creases from forming which may cause a misfeed.

* If you experience feed problems, first clean your magazines and weapon. Fire a couple magazines of new factory ammo to see if this resolves the problem. If not send the magazine back to the manufacturer -- or toss it.

COPYRIGHT 2003 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group

[PrincessRAR]

Loading only 10 rounds in a 15 round pistol magazine or 15 in a 30 round SMG or rifle magazine do help them last longer.

I think that other than highly dangerous areas such as Iraq, in most countries, the above loads should be adequate.

I don't know where Sergey got his "fully loaded Glock mag lasts ten years" story, but it sounds fishy. I'm not even sure a fully loaded Glock magazine could last for a year in that condition.

15 in 30 thats waaay to little champ, as for sergey quell the attitude little man.

what about build up unles it was stored away in some sanitary volt.

[sergey31]

Loading only 10 rounds in a 15 round pistol magazine or 15 in a 30 round SMG or rifle magazine do help them last longer.

I think that other than highly dangerous areas such as Iraq, in most countries, the above loads should be adequate.

I don't know where Sergey got his "fully loaded Glock mag lasts ten years" story, but it sounds fishy. I'm not even sure a fully loaded Glock magazine could last for a year in that condition.

15 in 30 thats waaay to little champ, as for sergey quell the attitude little man.



No attitude here young man just a little bit frastration that people choose to ignore what actually is true and belive in old-urban talles.


what about build up unles it was stored away in some sanitary volt.

We were talking about magazine "springs" here and how they wear out or not, build up would be a problem if you are in a harsh environment which majority of "handgun" users don't put them trough.

[ogukuo72]

Loading only 10 rounds in a 15 round pistol magazine or 15 in a 30 round SMG or rifle magazine do help them last longer.

I think that other than highly dangerous areas such as Iraq, in most countries, the above loads should be adequate.

I don't know where Sergey got his "fully loaded Glock mag lasts ten years" story, but it sounds fishy. I'm not even sure a fully loaded Glock magazine could last for a year in that condition.

15 in 30 thats waaay to little champ, as for sergey quell the attitude little man.

what about build up unles it was stored away in some sanitary volt.

You're probably right. But down here, where beat cops carry five-shot revolvers as standard issue side-arms, it's a lot! :)

Of course, for really serious stuff, we'll have to top up fully (and quickly).

Just read an article from 1992. Apparently the spring in a full loaded 1911 magazine is 203,000 PSI. For a Browning High Power, it's 103,000 PSI. For the SIG P226, it's 117,000 PSI.

All springs in magazines would relax a certain amount if a high stress load is placed on it. For the P226 magazine, it is estimated that all normal magazine springs will function perfectly after 25% of their spring stiffness are lost. In turn, it is estimated that 2 to 3% of a spring's stiffness would be lost in the first hour of full capacity load, and another 2% or 3% over the next 50 years. So theorectically, a fully loaded P226 magazine should still be fully capable of functioning fifty years after it is fully-loaded.

This is probably all right for a civilian who shoots only for recreation, but for a policeman or a soldier who relies on his firearm to not only survive but to protect his fellow officers and civilians, can we afford to take the same attitude?

Sergey is not a soldier or a policeman, so I guess he could afford to be negligent towards his magazines and ammunition.

I would leave it to those on this forum here who are truly in service to advice whether they would do the same. It is their example that I would follow, not the advice of some gun magazines or some amateur.

[Sabre]

Other than count ;) , the other way is to put a couple of tracer in as the 2nd and 3rd rounds as you load a mag. If you put a tracer down range, you need to change mags....

Yep, but if you have the basic IA squared away you can always fall back on it.

I don't think anyone has had any dramas with the new HK A2 mags. They seem to take 30 rounds without any issues. Though leaving a couple rounds out is always good practice, as you are bound to get sh!t in them wherever you are. Having said that, the 'follower' (I've impressed myself by discovering the correct name for that bit!) in the new mags is quite long/tall and seems to be designed to leave a good 2-3 cm in the bottom of the mag for sand to well up. That's what makes the new mags slightly longer than the old ones, too long to fit three in an ALICE pouch.

[Royal]

You are wrong.

Thanks for that.


Do the shocks in your truck wear out when they sit in the garage? No. Constant loading and unloading will wear out springs, however, keeping them loaded will NOT hurt them, unless you are using really bad springs. I've NEVER experienced it with any firearm magazine spring in my life, not even the ****ty ones.

I don't have a truck - I'm not American. I Have a motorbike and I leave it on a stand, just the same way we leave our waggons at work on axle jacks when we're not using them.

As Sergey seems to be finally realising, there is a huge difference between some NRA walt who plays with his toys at the weekend, and a soldier who spends most of his time on Ops either up to his arse in mud or being sandblasted by rotor downwash.

That means his mags get filled with every kind of crap and he needs to clean them. Regularly.

Also, his mags are (generally) made by the lowest bidder and the best part of 40 years experience of being up to your arse in **** with an M16/FAL or whatever has proved that if you do not clean and oil your mags regularly they fail. End of.

[oldsoak]

some mags are transparent - not ours unfortunately. I can only quote from OBUA and it might well be different for those who are more experienced in doing it for real. I double tap and swap at the count of ten. When it goes quiet, I swap for a full mag and bomb up the mag I've just taken off and then
the others. If I get ****ed fo the LSW, I tap the mag after each burst and swap when it sounds too tinny ! Not precise, I know, but it works for me.

[oldsoak]

oops - things moved on quite a bit while I wrote that ! :oops:

[Geezah]

Just wanted to add, not every gun nut in the Good Ol US of A, is someone that has not served. I've met plenty that are retired servicemen or current LEOs.

[Herrmannek]

served or not laws of physiscs are same for everyone...keeping mag loaded doesn't do harm to spring and this was the topic's origin. colecting dirt, corrosion and ammo being bended an scrached in the mag is totaly different story and that can be an issue for a soldiers or leos who may expose their mag to random beatings but thats totaly different story...

[crinkler]

I'm continually amazed that sergey always finds a way to contradict people that have carried weapons in combat.
I take it you don't have a whole lot of exp with working with metal. The more you compress and decompress a spring the weaker it becomes.

[crinkler]

I don't know where Sergey got his "fully loaded Glock mag lasts ten years" story, but it sounds fishy. I'm not even sure a fully loaded Glock magazine could last for a year in that condition.
I take it you own few guns. I have glock mags that have had rounds in them for 3 years. And the mags would work if I took them out today.

I also recently took my mini-14 out for the first time since 2000 and used some mags that had been full since than and they worked fine not a hickup.


:|

[Royal]

I take it you own few guns. I have glock mags that have had rounds in them for 3 years. And the mags would work if I took them out today.

I also recently took my mini-14 out for the first time since 2000 and used some mags that had been full since than and they worked fine not a hickup.


:|

I take it you don't use guns very often then?

[SamHamam]

IIRC the stoppage in James Beaton's pistol during the kidnap attempt on the then Princess Anne was ascribed to leaving his magazine loaded.

You can say what you like but I've been rotating mags for more years than I care to remember and I intend to keep doing so (and ensuring that anyone who works for me also does so).

[joe mama]

OK, I'm going to attempt to come at this from another angle since we seem to have a little bit of "if a soldier says it, it's true" vs "if a non soldier says it, he's an nra gun nut talking out his ass" going on, and while plenty of lessons from soldiers are excellent and hard won knowledge, but wouldn't you agree that there are also things that are done because the army (marines, whatever) says that's the way to do it, even if it isn't necessarily the best way to do it or may have been once long ago, but isn't necessarily now?

Specifically directed to those who have served or are serving: have any of you had experience with magazines having issues because they were left loaded for a long time (you define long) and that weakened the springs? I'm not asking if you had a problem with a dirty magazine, or if loading less rounds makes it easier to keep clean, etc etc.

My own personal experience: several SIG P226 and S&W SW99 10 round magazines, both fully loaded then unused for a little over one year, functioned flawlessly when used after they'd sat and continue to function normally.

(please note, if it's not obvious: I'm NOT attempting to say anyone's opinion or experience on this matter is crap, whether you're a 47 year veteran of delta/sas/gign/asas/xyz or you're sitting naked in a closet reading guns and ammo rubbing gun oil on your weiner and your 88 magnum, or you're anywhere in between)

[Royal]

OK, I'm going to attempt to come at this from another angle since we seem to have a little bit of "if a soldier says it, it's true" vs "if a non soldier says it, he's an nra gun nut talking out his ass" going on, and while plenty of lessons from soldiers are excellent and hard won knowledge, but wouldn't you agree that there are also things that are done because the army (marines, whatever) says that's the way to do it, even if it isn't necessarily the best way to do it or may have been once long ago, but isn't necessarily now?

Specifically directed to those who have served or are serving: have any of you had experience with magazines having issues because they were left loaded for a long time (you define long) and that weakened the springs? I'm not asking if you had a problem with a dirty magazine, or if loading less rounds makes it easier to keep clean, etc etc.

Most things done by todays western armies are for a reason - particularly in the field. The days of painting rocks white are long gone (except for the Brigade of Guards who still feel the need to paint anything that doesn't move red and blue).

I'll try to spell it in words of one syllable. If a magazine gets wet and isn't stripped and cleaned it gets rusty. Rusty springs break. Yes, that has happened to me - pouch full of loose 5.56 rattling about in a contact (exercise not real, fortunately ;) ) is embarrasing to say the least.

If it's full of sand, mud, leaf litter or nutty wrappers it will jam.

For those reasons we do, and will continue to strip and clean our mags on a regular basis.

In the unlikely event that I become a cop or NRA member, I'll re-think this.

[crinkler]

I take it you own few guns. I have glock mags that have had rounds in them for 3 years. And the mags would work if I took them out today.

I also recently took my mini-14 out for the first time since 2000 and used some mags that had been full since than and they worked fine not a hickup.


:|

I take it you don't use guns very often then?
Well being I have 3 safes full and have gone through over 15k rounds in 5.56 alone this year I take it I do, I rarely shoot the mini-14 its not exactly the nicest of rifles. I own a two kel-tecs one that I have never shot. I simply got a nice price on them I paid $300 for two p32's nib.

And I have plenty of mags that have ammo in them. However they are quality mags. The m4 in my car has mags that have rarely seen any use. And two have been loaded since last year. Do I trust they will function when needed, you bet because over the years that has been the results.

The only ****ty mags I have owned where a few peices of crap for a 92fs. And they got the trash can. Good mags are worth every penny.

[SamHamam]

Specifically directed to those who have served or are serving: have any of you had experience with magazines having issues because they were left loaded for a long time (you define long) and that weakened the springs?

See my previous post about the Princess Anne/Mall incident.

[California Joe]

I'm continually amazed that sergey always finds a way to contradict people that have carried weapons in combat.
I take it you don't have a whole lot of exp with working with metal. The more you compress and decompress a spring the weaker it becomes.

Actually I build guns, and even if they are flintlocks the same principles apply. Maybe compressed springs are fine in a vaccum or in a gun safe. I tend to side with the combat veterans when they relate what works for them, in combat, on a military board. Thankfully I don't have to worry about bad guys shooting me because I took sergeys advice and then realized too late that my mags were f*cked. Oops.

[joe mama]

I'll try to spell it in words of one syllable. If a magazine gets wet and isn't stripped and cleaned it gets rusty. Rusty springs break. Yes, that has happened to me - pouch full of loose 5.56 rattling about in a contact (exercise not real, fortunately ;) ) is embarrasing to say the least.

If it's full of sand, mud, leaf litter or nutty wrappers it will jam.

For those reasons we do, and will continue to strip and clean our mags on a regular basis.

In the unlikely event that I become a cop or NRA member, I'll re-think this.

I must have missed the point where I said cleaning magazines isn't a good idea and/or magazines that are dirty (add rusty to that) work just like clean ones.

[joe mama]

Specifically directed to those who have served or are serving: have any of you had experience with magazines having issues because they were left loaded for a long time (you define long) and that weakened the springs?

See my previous post about the Princess Anne/Mall incident.

One incident blamed on this isn't exactly the same as one of the soldiers here saying "i've had this happen with clean magazines x times and so everybody in my unit loads less rounds" or whatever, is it?

[joe mama]

To reiterate: I am NOT saying that if Royal (or whoever) says "load less rounds" or "don't leave mags fully loaded a long time" they're full of crap. I'm trying to get the comments clear: If you advocate loading less rounds or not leaving mags loaded a long time, do you do it from experience with weakened (NOT FROM RUST) springs? If you advocate loading less rounds or not leaving mags loaded a long time, do you do it from experience with mags being easier to keep clean?
I don't care if you triple load your mags or leave them empty and sealed in a vacuum surrounded by 9 force fields, not cleaning them is asking for trouble. Ummmm...are people perhaps misunderstanding my mention of leaving mags loaded and taking it too literally to mean leaving them loaded AND not cleaning them? Maybe I should clarify that I mean leaving them loaded but regularly (whatever is appropriate for the conditions) unloading to clean and then reloading?

[California Joe]

I leave my non flintlock magazines loaded cause I'm lazy.

[joe mama]

Actually I build guns, and even if they are flintlocks the same principles apply.

What do you build, may I ask? If it's flintlocks, you might like this site: www.leipersforkflintlocks.com.

[crinkler]

I leave my non flintlock magazines loaded cause I'm lazy.
You have flintlocks that have magazines? :P



Had to be a smartass :lol:

[joe mama]

I have 3 flintlocks that have magazines...I call them my Amish Assault Weapons.
p-)

[sergey31]

It's very interesting to see how narrow minded some people are, almost religion like mindset. This whole topic started about "pistol" magazines and it's springs and I tried to stay on topic and even provided several articles (reg: springs) but some choose to not read it and believe nonsense and past-on legends. All it shows someone's intelligence level. Keep it up ( :lol: )

[sergey31]

Loading only 10 rounds in a 15 round pistol magazine or 15 in a 30 round SMG or rifle magazine do help them last longer. :cantbeli:

I think that other than highly dangerous areas such as Iraq, in most countries, the above loads should be adequate.

I don't know where Sergey got his "fully loaded Glock mag lasts ten years" story, but it sounds fishy. I'm not even sure a fully loaded Glock magazine could last for a year in that condition.

15 in 30 thats waaay to little champ, as for sergey quell the attitude little man.

what about build up unles it was stored away in some sanitary volt.



Just read an article from 1992. Apparently the spring in a full loaded 1911 magazine is 203,000 PSI. For a Browning High Power, it's 103,000 PSI. For the SIG P226, it's 117,000 PSI.


I would leave it to those on this forum here who are truly in service to advice whether they would do the same. It is their example that I would follow, not the advice of some gun magazines or some amateur.

:lol:

[Geezah]

FYI: There are 80million law abiding gun owners in the US, there are only around 4million NRA members.

[California Joe]

Actually I build guns, and even if they are flintlocks the same principles apply.

What do you build, may I ask? If it's flintlocks, you might like this site: www.leipersforkflintlocks.com.

I usually get my parts from Track of the Wolf or Jim Chambers. Flints. I'm currently carving a Bedford County longrifle......

And sergey, f*ck articles, I could read Bravo Two Zero and claim I'm an expert on SAS tactics. Oh yeah, that didn't work out so well. Your premise is the sources you cite have more credibility than Royal, digrar, PrincessRAR, Matchanu, Ngati..... and any of the other members here that I know to be pros.

[sergey31]

O.K....That's fine if you believe that, I'm not here to change your mind. I'm on the other hand more incline to believe many different sources and as well written articles especially if they support common physics. p-)

[Herrmannek]

Actually I build guns, and even if they are flintlocks the same principles apply.

I usually get my parts from Track of the Wolf or Jim Chambers. Flints. I'm currently carving a Bedford County longrifle......

With all due respect to your carpenters/carving skills "Build" is a big world for assembling guns from almost ready to mount parts or kits :).

And sergey, f*ck articles, I could read Bravo Two Zero and claim I'm an expert on SAS tactics. Oh yeah, that didn't work out so well. Your premise is the sources you cite have more credibility than Royal, digrar, PrincessRAR, Matchanu, Ngati..... and any of the other members here that I know to be pros.
Still physics is physics... As we ussualy don't agree with sergey31: proper springs don't wear when left compressed(mags and/or springs are ussualy build in the way you can't overcompress them)...

[HoboWithAK]

You are wrong.

Thanks for that.


Do the shocks in your truck wear out when they sit in the garage? No. Constant loading and unloading will wear out springs, however, keeping them loaded will NOT hurt them, unless you are using really bad springs. I've NEVER experienced it with any firearm magazine spring in my life, not even the ****ty ones.

I don't have a truck - I'm not American. I Have a motorbike and I leave it on a stand, just the same way we leave our waggons at work on axle jacks when we're not using them.

As Sergey seems to be finally realising, there is a huge difference between some NRA walt who plays with his toys at the weekend, and a soldier who spends most of his time on Ops either up to his arse in mud or being sandblasted by rotor downwash.

That means his mags get filled with every kind of crap and he needs to clean them. Regularly.

Also, his mags are (generally) made by the lowest bidder and the best part of 40 years experience of being up to your arse in **** with an M16/FAL or whatever has proved that if you do not clean and oil your mags regularly they fail. End of.

What did that have to do with what I said? I said, quite simply, that if you left a full magazine sitting, nothing would happen to the spring. Did I say anything about getting them ****ty, rusty, filled with dirt and sand and ice (yes, ice, it's happened to me, what happens to everything in NY)? When I entered this conversation, that's all it was. Not how long a magazine would last if you kept it in your back pocket while out in the ****.

[California Joe]

**** Herman, I didn't claim to be a blacksmith working at Williamsburg, VA handmaking 40,000 dollar rifles from scratch.

They aren't kits, the parts are there but the amount of carving, inletting, metalworking, precision drilling etc. it takes to make the whole thing work isn't all that easy. Give it a try. By the way, during the time those guns were commonly being produced, gunsmiths bought imported locks and had barrels made for them.....

Not that this has anything to do with the original subject but feel free to cast aspersions......

[dacanadianbomb]

So a dirty uncared for mag will prolly lead to failures.
But to clean it you have to unload it or ?

I would make an unexperienced and uneducated guess, that the chance of the mags going ass up , because the spring becomes weak due to unloading and loading, is a less acute danger to the user, than the mag funking up feeding etc. due to dirt and grime.

So if that is true, whichever way you do it, your mags will funk up after a while.Unless you just never shoot at something and keep the mag locked up.
But then you might not have a need for mags and firearms at all.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Excellent thread. Just the right hint of them vs us sneering to get me interested.

From my personal experience it seems to depend on the manufacturer as to whether or not a mag could/should be left loaded and how many rounds you should load in them.

Steyr AUG;
apparently these mags are designed to take 32 rds and operate as per. An armourer mate demonstrated this to my platoon a few years ago, he actually squeezed 34rds into a 30rd mag and the weapon operated flawlessly. The idea behind this design is to allow the operator to load 30rds into a 30rd mag without risk of failure. I got that from a Steyr Austria rep. I have yet to have an ADI AUG mag fail me. I have come across mags with weak springs however...

SIG SAUER P226; I have seen many of these mags in various states of repair. Every single one I've come across preloaded for any length of time has had a weak spring. Even brand new out of the box examples.

I've heard from our chicken stranglers that HK M4 mags are the best by far and well worth the extra weight. AR15 type mags seem to vary reliability greatly depending on the manufacturer.

Personally, I 'own' twice the mags I carry in order to rotate them at least every couple of weeks or so. Pistol and rifle.

But what would I know.

Range is one thing, Ops is another entirely.

[Herrmannek]

**** Herman, I didn't claim to be a blacksmith working at Williamsburg, VA handmaking 40,000 dollar rifles from scratch.

They aren't kits, the parts are there but the amount of carving, inletting, metalworking, precision drilling etc. it takes to make the whole thing work isn't all that easy. Give it a try. By the way, during the time those guns were commonly being produced, gunsmiths bought imported locks and had barrels made for them.....

Not that this has anything to do with the original subject but feel free to cast aspersions......
I know it's hard thing, esspecialy if you want to get believeable/professional look and touch... Thats why all due respect phrase. And I'm going to give it a try for sure, but colt revolver has priority(we can buy only colts pre 1850, if not remington would be my choice).

[ogukuo72]

I guess where you stand depends on your perspective.

Someone who carries a gun in the line of duty is bound to have a different perspective from a civilian who shoots for leisure.

Am I going to bring a 1911 magazine that had been kept fully loaded with the same ammo for the past fifty years to a fun day at the range just to see if it works? Why not? If the thing jams, well OK, too bad. If the thing works flawlessly, it will be a good story to tell your friends.

But am I going to bring a 1911 magazine that had been kept fully loaded with the same ammo for the past fifty years into a firefight? Hell no. Even if I'm willing to assume that this magazine, which I have never test-fired before, will work flawlessly, I won't trust the ammo to function properly after so long in storage. The last thing I want would be to have this unknown unknown (a bit of Rumsfeld-speak!) jam on me just when I need the gun the most.

[PrincessRAR]

Excellent thread. Just the right hint of them vs us sneering to get me interested.

From my personal experience it seems to depend on the manufacturer as to whether or not a mag could/should be left loaded and how many rounds you should load in them.

Steyr AUG;
apparently these mags are designed to take 32 rds and operate as per. An armourer mate demonstrated this to my platoon a few years ago, he actually squeezed 34rds into a 30rd mag and the weapon operated flawlessly. The idea behind this design is to allow the operator to load 30rds into a 30rd mag without risk of failure. I got that from a Steyr Austria rep. I have yet to have an ADI AUG mag fail me. I have come across mags with weak springs however...

SIG SAUER P226; I have seen many of these mags in various states of repair. Every single one I've come across preloaded for any length of time has had a weak spring. Even brand new out of the box examples.

I've heard from our chicken stranglers that HK M4 mags are the best by far and well worth the extra weight. AR15 type mags seem to vary reliability greatly depending on the manufacturer.

Personally, I 'own' twice the mags I carry in order to rotate them at least every couple of weeks or so. Pistol and rifle.

But what would I know.

Range is one thing, Ops is another entirely.

well well said - i have never had too many problems with the styer mags - even less with the SR98 and AW50 magazines.
As long as you clean them they work a treat.
And jesus 34 in a 30 thats is incredible i can just squeeze 32 in and sometimes they pop out, 34 would be an effort though

[Seraphim]

So I went to the range yesterday and now one of the mags doesnt lock the slide back :(

Oh well, I'll just use it to top off.

Im heading out again in a few hours. Only had an hour before sundown. I havent slept yet... :lol: