special forces or rangers

[venture160]

ok whats tougher to get into special forces or the 75th ranger regiment... and which does the army value higher? I see all this talk about rangers.... but i've always thought the special forces were more highly trained and elite.... whats the real deal here?

plus one other question... do you need airborne training to get into 10th mtn?

[JohnJohn]

Rangers are Special Operations capable, highly trained and qualified, elite infantry, rapid response "light infantry" force.

Special Forces, well, which? You got a few to talk about.

I think it is better, if you are going the SF or Spec Ops route, to get a few years of experience under your belt before you even attempt to go the unconventional route. Whats the rush? ;)

[venture160]

john this is not a matter of information for joining, rather im just curious and would like to know.. thanks

[papabear]

You don't need airborne training to get into 10th mountain. However, based on what my friend has told me about the way the division is run (and trained), you might consider a different division. (Despite the name, the troops don't get adequate training in mountaineering.)

[96B]

John, Special Forces refers to Green Berets, Special Operations is Rangers, SEALs, etc.

[TacoDelRio]

One question: Di the 10th move its headquarters to Ft. Drum?

Hooah! p-)

[Duke]

the 10th has been at Drum since '85. Special Operations Capable is the USMC MAGTF, that is they train at standards of SOCOM.

[Apogee]

I wouldn't say they exactly train to the standards of USSOCOM, but they def. go beyond the training for a normal infantry unit. I don't think they really fit under USSOCOM's 9 primary missions.

[Duke]

Cadet, why are you busting my chops??!! We have civil affairs personnel, they attend the army's CA school. I have a friend in Afghanistan contracting to buy shovels and other farming equipment. Psyop close enough to CA Marines attend PSYOPs course. DA you covered. UW-Force Recon, some FR attend JFKSWCS. Special Recon that's Scout/Snipers and Force Recon. FID we do that all the time, "Cobra Gold", Combatting Terrorism again FR, Info Ops we have Radio Reconnaissance Teams and Counterproliferation--the Army teaches Marine Chemical Detection Course over at Leonard Wood. So we do fulfill SOCOM standards.
In the mid-eighties after Commandant PX Kelley decided not to enter SOCOM, his replacement knew what a **** up this was. General Gray proposed a solution, the concept of Special Operation Capable.

[FallenAngel]

Just my 2 cents from what little I know.

I think Rangers are the way to go if you're the action type of guy. SF (AKA "Green Berets") are really more involved in training foriegners to fight like us. The Kurds, the Northern Alliance, Columbians, Filipinos, etc.

As for which one the army values more, I would say the SF. Personally, being required to learn a second language to fluency level would be the hardest part. Interacting with different cultures and assimilating one's self into that often VERY different culture would be most difficult and take tons of patience and open-mindedness. The SF are usually older and thus have more experiance with the military in general and most likely combat arms specifically (although with this 18X program that's sure to change).

Rangers are Spec. Ops capable elite infantry....so they're not as "special" (he he...'special' forces, get it? :) ). The Marines have a couple Marine Expeditionary Units that are also Spec. Ops capable "elite" infantry (if your everyday US Army Inf. is the standard to compare the rangers to.). Granted the Rangers are better at taking Airfields, but the Marines are better at taking beaches. Details may be different but I think in general everyone would agree Army Rangers and Marine MEUs are pretty much the same thing. :) *waits for USMA to turn around tell me I am wrong*

[MZap]

[quote="FallenAngel"]

I think Rangers are the way to go if you're the action type of guy. SF (AKA "Green Berets") are really more involved in training foriegners to fight like us. The Kurds, the Northern Alliance, Columbians, Filipinos, etc.



quote]

That's assuming you can make it through Ranger school, considering the 65% dropout rate :).

MZap

[96B]

I would MUCH rather be in the 75th than in SF, even though it would be awesome to wear baseball caps and grow beards. I dont really like the idea of having to learn another language or train foreigners.

As for the MEUs living up to SOCOM, I think as a whole including all the subordinates within it, they definately do but if you talk about just the infantry (not including specialized units ie Force, MSPF etc) then I dont think they can live up to everything under SOCOM. Because of how the MEUs are designed and the units under it, it can accomplish virtually any wartime task given because of its versatility with air and ground power. Force Reconnaissance and MSPFs provide alot of the SOCOM capabilities to the MEU because they can do everything Rangers and SEALs do and are certainly as elite even though they are not under SOCOM and for good reason. Not to go into a lecture about it, but I believe it is understood the Corps wanted to maintain its direct control over Force rather than loose it to SOCOM but soon I think the USMC Det 1 will provide the best of both worlds to the Marines.

I am no Ranger expert, but I have done research and talked to various people and it seems as with all the SOCOM units, Rangers have their specific abilities they provide to the SOF community as do the others. They are probably one of the best light infantry in the world and are extensively trained and heavily armed. Even though I joined the Marines and go to boot camp soon, I will admit that your typical infantry Marine probably isnt as refined as a 75th Ranger, but they are well trained and can get most of the same jobs done with some exceptions. I still stand by my belief that the MEUs as a whole can accomplish virtually any SOCOM mission though.

[Mal3]

Can I get details on the organization, equipment and types of units in an MEU someplace on the web? This sounds like something I need for a game I'm playing :)

[96B]

http://www.specialoperations.com/USMC/default.html

[Mal3]

Thanks, I was aware of that page. Often use the site and like it, but the info there is extremely scattered. Wished I could find a handy text about the MEUs with line drawings for organization and overview of forces and capabilities.

Anybody care to venture as to what other units Force Recon and Marine Reconnaissance are equavilent to? I had little knowledge of Force Recon and thought they were something like Marine Rangers, maybe smaller and more focused on advanced recon.

[FallenAngel]

It's my unerstanding that Force Recon training rules almost exactly parallel with SEAL training....if you want to call that a comparison.

[Mal3]

I'm stunned... how many tens of thousands of SpecOps soldiers does the US have???

[FallenAngel]

Not sure....whatever it is though, isn't enough because the Army and Marines now have things for kids to enlist and go straight to Recon or Rangers (assuming you pass the courses).

[96B]

The need for SOF type guys has definately increased because of the terrorism threat around the world among other reasons. I do not think that the military is getting desperate, but they just need more guys now because of the demand.

Any Marine physically qualified can try out for Recon by going through the intense screening program to determine if one is even worthy move on to the actual training. Among the requirements in the screening program are a PFT which includes running 3 miles in at least 18 minutes or better, two sets of 75 pushups and other PT. There is also a timed 10 mile forced run with a 50lb rucksack after the swim tests and obstacle course. Only after this may the Marine go on to the actual training which of course has much more PT. Note also that these events are done back to back.

Upon completion of the training and schools and depending on openings, typically they go to Batallion Recon first for gaining experience before moving up to Force. Force Reconnaissance personel are experts in all types of unconventional warfare and have pretty much all of the capabilities of their Navy counterparts. The big differance is the main mission of Recon is to scout ahead of the main Marine force. SEALs get alot more independant missions because they are under SOCOM. Some Force guys also can get invited to DEVGRU, which isnt all SEALs, just as Delta isnt all Army.

[Apogee]

I know when to shut my mouth, and right about now would be it.

[96B]

Feel free to comment... I am pretty sure its about Delta... well check this out, I understand you shouldnt always believe everything you read but I would think a Force Recon Marine is definately more knowledgeable about it than we are.

http://www.wlu.edu/~tilitzen/ForceRecon/

"I know guys at the Division Companies that been asked to go to Dev. Group (Team 6, which by the way just for your knowlege is not all Seals, just as Delta isn't all Army)"--A recon marine, now in college

Yes I know that most of the sites out there only state they are recruited from mainly 75th and SF but still none of us really knows for sure. Because you are at a USMA you would know more than me but it was just my understanding that Delta is by far mainly Army but sometimes other servicemembers get in... Also one would think that if they are the nations premiere CT team they would not limit themselves to just Army, not saying anything bad but you know what I mean. Most Recon guys probably go to DEVGRU because they are so much like the SEALs, so that leaves just the Air Force and I dont think many of those guys go to Delta :lol:

[MZap]

Feel free to comment... I am pretty sure its about Delta... well check this out, I understand you shouldnt always believe everything you read but I would think a Force Recon Marine is definately more knowledgeable about it than we are.

http://www.wlu.edu/~tilitzen/ForceRecon/

"I know guys at the Division Companies that been asked to go to Dev. Group (Team 6, which by the way just for your knowlege is not all Seals, just as Delta isn't all Army)"--A recon marine, now in college

Yes I know that most of the sites out there only state they are recruited from mainly 75th and SF but still none of us really knows for sure. Because you are at a USMA you would know more than me but it was just my understanding that Delta is by far mainly Army but sometimes other servicemembers get in... Also one would think that if they are the nations premiere CT team they would not limit themselves to just Army, not saying anything bad but you know what I mean. Most Recon guys probably go to DEVGRU because they are so much like the SEALs, so that leaves just the Air Force and I dont think many of those guys go to Delta :lol:

What a bunch of bull**** :roll: . I don't often post here but the way some of you guys ramble on makes me think you haven't even reached the age of 13 yet. Delta's made up of former Rangers and SF guys, FR consist of MARINES, and SEALs are made up of guys from the NAVY for Christ's sake.

MZap

[96B]

It must be an extraordinary responsibility being the one who knows everything :roll:

[venture160]

haha excellent response semper fi.....

[Dmitri]

I personally respect rangers for all they are and what they do, but they go in no comparison with SF. Overall the Ranger training is no more than 4-5 months (not sure exactly), while for SF its 2 years.. And a good part of them have already been to sniper schools, air assault, airborne of course and ranger. SF do all the missions that rangers do and then some more, plus they are so unique in their unconventional skills they are probably the best in the world at fighting or training guerillas. Just check out all the missons they did in afganistan and are now doing in iraq... They have been sitting in the north of Iraq by themselves all that time, surveilling and fighting, and controlling the whole area.
I just think that most Sf missions are so delicate that they are rarely announced, while rangers are getting all the attention for raids and operations that require better performance than normal units can give.

[venture160]

hmm thats what i've been thinking as well, it seems the special forces are exactly what the army's been wanting for years.. a sharp bunch of individuals who can make concise battlefield and non battle-field decisions without thinking.. and they are the right ones as well. Although some forces may be tougher, it really comes down to your battlefield intelligence or "IQ"

[trmst]

"There is also a timed 10 mile forced run with a 50lb rucksack after the swim tests and obstacle course. "

In my book that is pretty tough(assuming its true).
From my days in ROTC and what ive heard from SF soldiers you arent supposed to run anytime while carrying a ruck in training. 10 miles seems kind of ruff too. Maybe the Navy just does do things different.

[JohnJohn]

all these units have their own purpose which they fullfil very well, healthy competition, but don't get all caught up on rivalry, otherwise we all start sounding like 13 year olds ;)

[96B]

Yea like this one right here....

I got the info here:
www.forcerecon.org

By the way, in BUD/S there is a 15 mile 50lb rucksack run

[FallenAngel]

Semper is right....I saw that on a Discovery Channel thing about BUD/S. The instructors do it right along with the trainees. THen, at the end of the hump, they wiegh each man's pack to make sure its no more than +/- 1 pound from 50.

It was quite humorous when they weighed the Instructors' packs. The trainees loaded ALL the packs and coincidentally the Instructors had between 55 and 60 lbs in their sacks and 'finished' towards the front of the group. :lol:

[TacoDelRio]

Ranger training lasts 68 days. That 68th day, a Ranger-to-be engorges on steak and shrimp before the graduation ceremony. woot

SOF and Rangers are two different things. The reason why Rangers get attention is because they swiftly strike and knock out a target that other conventional units cannot do efficiently or effectivly. :bash: It's hard to keep that sort of thing "under wraps". Hopefully you got what I meant, Dmitri.

SOF and Rangers I know/knew consider moving from a Ranger Batt. to an SOF group to be more of a "lateral" movement, as opposed to climbing up in the ladder, if you will. Rangers are already in superb mental and physical condition, so getting into SF is easier for them. It shows that in the attrition rates of SF recruits. If you were a Ranger, who was trying to get into SF, you have a MUCH MUCH MUCH better chance of making it than some other soldier from an Infantry group, or any other Airborne qualified group. Sort of like how it's easier to go to college if you are a senior in high school, as opposed to how hard it would be for a 7th grader to get into college. No insult meant to anyone, if it can be found.

Just my two pennies.

Hooah p-)

[Smoothie104]

Addressing the existence of other branches of the armed forces being recruited into Delta Force

Officer Assignment Opportunities in Delta Force

(From: US Army PERSCOM Online)

The U.S. Army's 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (1stSFOD-D) plans and conducts a broad range of special operations across the operationalcontinuum. Delta is organized for the conduct of missions requiring rapid response with surgical applications of a wide variety of unique skills,whilemaintaining the lowest possible profile of U.S. involvement.

Assignment to 1st SFOD-D involves an extensive prescreening process,successful completion of a 3 to 4 week mentally and physically demandingAssessment and Selection Course, and a 6 month operator Training Course.Upon successful completion of these courses officers are assigned to anoperational position within the unit.

As an officer in 1st SFOD-D, you will have added opportunities to command at the CPT, MAJ, and LTC levels. You may also serve as an Operations Officer.Afterservice with 1st SFOD-D there are a wide variety of staff positions availableto you at DOD, JCS, DA, USASOC, USSOCOM, and other joint headquarters becauseof your training and experience. In addition, there are interagency positionsavailable to you as well.

The prerequisites for an officer are:

Male
Volunteer
U.S. Citizen
Pass a modified Class II Flight Physical
Airborne qualified or volunteer for airborne training
Pass a background security investigation and have at leasta secret clearance.
Pass the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT), FM 21-20,75points each event in the 22-26 age group, (55 pushups in two minutes,62situps in two minutes, and a 2 mile run in 15:06 or less), wearing yourunit PT uniform.
Minimum of two years active service remaining upon selectionto the unit.
Captain or Major (Branch Immaterial).
Advance Course graduate.
College graduate (BA or BS).
Minimum of 12 months successful command (as a Captain).
1st SFOD-D conducts worldwide recruiting twice a year to process potential candidates for the Assessment and Selection Course. Processing for the March Course is from October through January. Processing for the September Course takes place April through July.
Assignments with 1st SFOD-D provide realistic training and experiences that are both personally and professionally rewarding.

[JTFazz]

John, Special Forces refers to Green Berets, Special Operations is Rangers, SEALs, etc.
US Army Special Forces Command (ABN) -- aka Green Berets -- is under the US Army Special Operations Command. Also under the USASOC are: 75th Ranger Regiment. 160 Special Operations Aviation Regiment, Special Operations Support Command, Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command and the JFK Special Warfare Center.

The USASOC is under the USSOCOM, which has under its umbrella the other branch SpecOps including SEALS, AFSOC, JSOC and others.

So, hence, Green Berets are also Army SpecOps. All Green Berets are SpecOps, but not all SpecOps are Green Berets. :D

Reference: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/arsoc.htm

[EliteWolf]

adding to semperfis coment, the rangers and marines are simalar because they follow alot more traditions than special forces, but they differ in special areas of training, specifically rangers train in AUC (advanced urban combat) and regular marines train MOUT, which there is a difference as far as im concerned... AUC is more commando style urban combat, its more extensive and uses different theories than standard MOUT, but im no expert, thats my educated opnion...but anyways, i rather be special forces because they are a little less traditional and more modern than rangers and marines...as expressed in BHD, the delta bended the rules alot and were more like cowboys than the rangers.. i also think special forces are more highly respected for there type of operations, going behind enemy lines in small groups, outnumbered and outgunned, and usually living to tell about it. but if you asked me in person, which is better, rangers or special forces id tell ya "navy seals, since thats where im headed very soon."

"i live for hell week!"

[Warrior-Mentor]

[quote="FallenAngel"]

I think Rangers are the way to go if you're the action type of guy. SF (AKA "Green Berets") are really more involved in training foriegners to fight like us. The Kurds, the Northern Alliance, Columbians, Filipinos, etc.



quote]

That's assuming you can make it through Ranger school, considering the 65% dropout rate :).

MZap

Any idea how many raids SF has executed in Iraq and Afghanistan?
You'd be surprised.

[Chops]

Hi WM

Just a quick word to the wise- it's kinda frowned upon around here dragging up three year old threads to add a line of comment. Fine if people have something major to add but for a line or two it just tends to piss people off.

cheers (and welcome)

Chops

[Warrior-Mentor]

Thanks. Was digging through with the search...didn't notice the date.
JM

[California Joe]

Good Gawd, I'd hate to see the amount of pages that a search like this turned up. And 85% of the posts will be from knuckleheads. :)

I was wondering why that guy called Lt. Scuba a "cadet" before I saw the date.

Like Chops said, welcome aboard.

[Blarney]

Rangers are Special Operations capable, highly trained and qualified, elite infantry, rapid response "light infantry" force.

Special Forces, well, which? You got a few to talk about.

I think it is better, if you are going the SF or Spec Ops route, to get a few years of experience under your belt before you even attempt to go the unconventional route. Whats the rush? ;)
The Special Forces are a group, there is no difference in what SF is...

youre referring to SOF.

Anyways, SF is much harder to get into, Ranger training helps, but a lot fail to get into SF later on.

holy crap...it is a three year old thread...why did you dig this up WM?

[Warrior-Mentor]

holy crap...it is a three year old thread...why did you dig this up WM?

LOL. Tears running down my face. Thanks.

[Creeper]

Talking bout 'Attention 2 Detail' , holy crap Batman!

[oregongrunt]

Special Forces is harder to pass.

[.Incognito]

Both are extremely difficult to get into.

[moughoun]

WM, welcome abord, I know you from SOCNET, good to have another BTDT like yourself here

[abncougar]

:cantbeli: :cantbeli: holy ****en ****t:cantbeli: :cantbeli: