The Battle of Darwin-Goose Green

[Oddball]

The Battle of Darwin-Goose Green PDF 724KB (www.leavenworth.army.mil/milrev/download/English/JulAug05/bolia.pdf)

[Royal]

Interesting...

A couple of points:

By no means did we (the British) have air superiority over either the Goose Green area or West Falkland at that time in the conflict. Our CAPs were limited to 2 or 3 Harriers at any time - flying from over a hundred miles off shore, and whose main role was defnce of the fleet and San Carlos water.

The writer has clearly never visted the area (understandable ;) ). A ground and recce shows that an airborne landing on Lafonia is ridiculous - we did not have the rotary air lift capacity (something the Argentines were well aware of) and the ground is unsuitable for a drop (had we been able to get a fleet of Hercs to the otherside of the world). As to beach landings on either side of the isthmus - raids by SF would have been entirely practicable, but we were using all available Landing Craft and Mexis to move materiel from the fleet to the bridgehead at San Carlos...

I would however agree with Mr Bolia's assertion that the death of Lt Col Jones, and Major Keebles take over of command led to the principles of Auftragstaktik being applied by 2 Para's sub unit commanders - and ultimately the victory.

[CMN]

Thanks for the post, an interesting read.

[RGRBOX]

Although the Brits were hard pressed with what little capabilities were available for the battle, they did very well, and showed the excellant training, type of soldier, and leadership needed to win on the battle field. If the Argentenians would have had their **** together, then they would have possibly caused the Brits to settle for pease, or maybe won the war. They had a lot in their favor, but they lacked in everything the British had. The Brits clearly won the War,and this should never be disputed.

[DeltaWhisky58]

A great deal of the problems faced by the Argentine forces - aside from their poor organisation/leadership - were caused by the automatic assumption that the British forces would use the same US-based doctrines used by their forces, especially with regard to amphibious operations.

Had the Argentine Army/Marines had been of the same calibre as their Air Force and Naval Aviation there may well have been a different result.

[MARINO]

Nice read, excellent, thank you mate.

[Knutsen]

Had the Argentine Army/Marines had been of the same calibre as their Air Force and Naval Aviation there may well have been a different result

Could you explain that? Thanks in advance.

[baboon6]

The Argentine Air Force (Mirage) and Navy (Skyhawk and Super Etendard) pilots were well-trained and dedicated fliers, who pressed home their attacks at masthead height- their is some incredible video footage from the Falklands of this . They continued to do so even after heavy casualties. Their choice of targets has been questioned- going for British warships rather than the more vulnerable and in some ways more important logistics ships. I think some of this may have to do with the fact that at the extreme range they were operating at, they had to pick targets as soon as they arrived over San Carlos Water. The other problems were more technical. Firstly, a lot of their 1000lb bombs, their main weapons, were incorrectly fused and did not explode, due to the extreme low-level they were dropped from. Second was the fact that they possessed only five examples of their most deadly weapon, the Exocet anti-ship missile, and only two (IIRC) Super Etendards were fitted to carry it.

Nevertheless they did achieve some successes, sinking several destroyers and frigates, and the container ship Atlantic Conveyor.

Someone posted a good article on this subject a while back.

[RGRBOX]

Had the Argentine Army/Marines had been of the same calibre as their Air Force and Naval Aviation there may well have been a different result

Could you explain that? Thanks in advance.

Just from the Marage attack jets, exocet missles, and being just 300 miles away, Argentine should have owned the day...

[DeltaWhisky58]

Had the Argentine Army/Marines had been of the same calibre as their Air Force and Naval Aviation there may well have been a different result

Could you explain that? Thanks in advance.

I think this has already been answered, however.........

What I have implied is that had the Argentine Army/Marines been of the same standards of training, professionalism and bravery as the Argie Air Force and Naval pilots - we might have had serious problems. Most of Britain's problems during the entirety of the conflict were caused by the result of the tenacious air attacks carried out at extreme range by these guys in obsolete aircraft and suffering huge losses. They managed to sink a serious number of our naval vessels and came pretty close to turning the tide in their favour.

There was considerable opposition from Argie ground forces in some areas, but in no way were the ground pounders in the same league as the aircrews and their support. There was way to much reliance put on conscript soldiers, and the divide between the professional offers/NCOs and the ordinary soldiers whom they held in very low regard was just to great for it ever to be an effective fighting force. There is no doubt that some of the elite units fought well, but these were in the minority.

[Knutsen]

Thanks guys. I'm not very into the military aspects of the falklands war.

[Para]

As a Para saying goes "Failure is not an option" You really need to have served in the Para's to understand there fighting mentality.

[RGRBOX]

As a Para saying goes "Failure is not an option" You really need to have served in the Para's to understand there fighting mentality.

hooah!

[MikeySpec]

great contribution, worth a discussion

[Adam Wilhelm]

...Major Keebles take over of command led to the principles of Auftragstaktik being applied by 2 Para's sub unit commanders...


How is the stance considering "Auftragestaktik" in the british military today?
I know that during WW2 the british didn´t utilize it.

[Royal]

...Major Keebles take over of command led to the principles of Auftragstaktik being applied by 2 Para's sub unit commanders...


How is the stance considering "Auftragestaktik" in the british military today?
I know that during WW2 the british didn´t utilize it.

Mission Command - or Auftragestaktik, is one of the foundations of our battle procedure and has been as long as I've been a commander (at all levels). There is some criticism (in UK military journals) of the US forces in the early stages in Iraq (this time round) for their inability to use it at the lower levels.

I suspect that at Coy level and below that is fairly justified (my view as an outsider...).

[Adam Wilhelm]

Misson command or "Auftragestaktik" (Uppdragstaktik in swedish) is the mainstay of a modern military force.
Here in Sweden have we used it since 1943, learned it by ze Germans.
Like everybody else. p-)

[Beer Monster]

...Major Keebles take over of command led to the principles of Auftragstaktik being applied by 2 Para's sub unit commanders...


How is the stance considering "Auftragestaktik" in the british military today?
I know that during WW2 the british didn´t utilize it.

Mission Command - or Auftragestaktik, is one of the foundations of our battle procedure and has been as long as I've been a commander (at all levels). There is some criticism (in UK military journals) of the US forces in the early stages in Iraq (this time round) for their inability to use it at the lower levels.

I suspect that at Coy level and below that is fairly justified (my view as an outsider...).

Interesting point. Recently finished the book "Generation Kill" by Evan Wright. There certainly didn't seem to be much mission command involved in Mr Wrights account of the war. However, having said that he was journalist so his view will be quite bias.

If I recall correctly Sgt. Brad Colbert went on to do an attachment to the Royal Marines? Can you confirm Royal? Is he still there?


Edit ...... just realised how off topic that was feel free to ignore/delete! :bash:

[MARK.TIGGER]

some of the other errors made by the british at goose green was the under utilisation of field artillery assets. Due to lack of lift to move guns and ammo. And would the battle have been so difficult if te civil service hadn't leaked the battle in advance on world service.

[DeltaWhisky58]

And would the battle have been so difficult if te civil service hadn't leaked the battle in advance on world service.

This is a siginificant factory in several events in the course of the Falklands conflict - serious breaches of OPSEC by both news correspondents and by the MoD civilian staff at home resulting an valuable itelligence being made available to the enemy.

A classic example of this was the release to the press by the MoD of the fact that Argie bombs were failing to explode because of incorrect fusing settings - i.e. being released so low that the bombs didn't have time to fully arm - the Argies were able to correct this. Utter madness!

[RGRBOX]

And would the battle have been so difficult if te civil service hadn't leaked the battle in advance on world service.

This is a siginificant factory in several events in the course of the Falklands conflict - serious breaches of OPSEC by both news correspondents and by the MoD civilian staff at home resulting an valuable itelligence being made available to the enemy.

A classic example of this was the release to the press by the MoD of the fact that Argie bombs were failing to explode because of incorrect fusing settings - i.e. being released so low that the bombs didn't have time to fully arm - the Argies were able to correct this. Utter madness!

Thank goodness for the media... that's why I'm 100% for a media black out during military Ops.

[Royal]

If I recall correctly Sgt. Brad Colbert went on to do an attachment to the Royal Marines? Can you confirm Royal? Is he still there?

Sorry mate - I've no idea if he's still with us - I'm away from the mainstream Corps at the moment (and likely to be so for a fair while now...).

[Adam Wilhelm]

...I've no idea if he's still with us - I'm away from the mainstream Corps at the moment (and likely to be so for a fair while now...).

Aha... been transfered to Shaky Boat Service? p-)

[DeltaWhisky58]

...I've no idea if he's still with us - I'm away from the mainstream Corps at the moment (and likely to be so for a fair while now...).

Aha... been transfered to Shaky Boat Service? p-)

:bash: Why such an assumption?

[Adam Wilhelm]

Not any particular reason. rofl