Hizbollah destroys IDF bulldozer in (Lebanon?)

[He219]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=thumb&id=522330

Israeli Soldier Killed on Border with Lebanon (http://news.lycos.com/news/story.asp?section=World&storyId=815268)

JERUSALEM (*******) - Hizbollah guerrillas killed an Israeli soldier on the Lebanon border on Monday in an attack that Israel seized upon as an example of why it is rebuffing peace feelers from Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

The incident raised tensions along the border and the possibility of Israeli reprisals.

Hizbollah said its guerrillas fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli bulldozer which had crossed into Lebanon, destroying it. The Israeli army said one soldier was killed and another seriously wounded.

Major-General Benny Gantz, chief of Israel's northern command, said the bulldozer crossed an Israeli security fence to clear bombs planted by the Syria-backed Hizbollah but operated short of the international frontier.

Gantz called the incident "very serious." Asked by ******* in a telephone interview about possible Israeli retaliation, he said: "We are weighing our steps."

The general did not elaborate but noted that Lebanon permitted Hizbollah to deploy along the border and the group has "a Syrian patron that enables it to operate."

Israel said Syria, the main power broker in Lebanon, bore some responsibility for the incident. Syria denies it controls Hizbollah.

"It's very clear that Assad speaks from both sides of his mouth, through the art of duplicity at its best: On the one hand, overtures of peace to Israel, on the other hand, continued support of its proxy, Hizbollah, to attack Israel," said Raanan Gissin, a spokesman for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

"There can't be terrorist activity from Lebanon and peace negotiations with Syria," Gissin said.

[He219]

Earlier in the day, Israeli warplanes flew over eastern and southern Lebanon, drawing anti-aircraft fire from the Lebanese army and Hezbollah guerrillas, Lebanese security officials said.

Two Israeli jets flew over the southern cities of Sidon and Tyre and the market town of Nabatiyeh as well as the Hermel region in eastern Lebanon, breaking the sound barrier, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

In Israel, military officials declined to comment on whether Israeli jets had flown over Lebanon but said echoes of explosions were heard on the Israeli side.

Hezbollah, which led an 18-year guerrilla war against Israeli forces until their withdrawal from southern Lebanon, routinely fires on Israeli warplanes over Lebanon.

The office of the U.N. secretary-general's representative for Lebanon, Staffan de Mistura, issued a statement expressing dismay over the flights and calling on the Israeli government to stop them.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040119/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_3

[SeanAshi]

:bash: Bashar Assad, he must realize that allowing Hezbollah to operate and move around freely, will have repercussions back on his part. :fork:

[He219]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D190104/site_of_attack.jpg

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D190104/180engzrit190104kaminski.jpg

IDF troops near the northern border, where a Hezbollah rocket killed one IDF soldier and seriously wounded another on Monday. (Y. Kaminsky)

"The Islamic resistance challenged a land violation by the Zionist occupation forces when one of its tractors crossed the border toward Lebanese land," Hezbollah said in a statement. "The tractor got a direct hit." [by an anti-tank missile, probably a RPG]

[He219]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?ssbinary=true&cachecontrol=*%3A2%2C12%2C22%2C32%2C42%2C52%3A10+*%2F*%2F*&blobtable=JPImageSpotlight&blobcol=urlimage&blobwhere=1064202589132&blobkey=id&blobheader=image/jpeg
Picture taken of the attack from Lebanon
Photo: TV - (?!?) Looks like a chopper to me ....


One soldier - an NCO bulldozer operator - was killed and another soldier was seriously wounded in an attack on an IDF D9 bulldozer, which was deactivating a minefield along the Lebanese border Monday afternoon.

Hizbullah fired an anti-tank missile at the bulldozer Monday evening near the northern border, scoring a direct hit on the vehicle.

According to reports, the bulldozer was hit at about 5pm while clearing roadside bombs 700 meters west of Moshav Zarit on the northern border.

The seriously wounded soldier - an NCO sapper - was air-lifted to Rambam hospital in Haifa. Tzi Ben-Ishai, deputy director of the hospital said the soldier was hit by shrapnel in various parts of his body, Israel Radio reported.

OC Northern Command Gen. Benny Ganz called the incident "very serious". Ganz said that those north of the border with Israel [Hizbullah and Syria] should be "concerned."

"Another sad incident by a terrorist organization in southern Lebanon, and another indication that the government of Lebanon is not fulfilling its international obligations to deploy to the border - UN resolution 425," Ganz said.

Hizbullah is believed to receive support from Iran and Syria, which occupies Lebanon and stations about 20,000 troops in the country.

A senior aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Raanan Gissin, said Syria was responsible for the attack.

"We have no intention of escalating the situation," Gissin told the AP, but Syria must "stop supporting terrorist organizations and dismantle the terrorist infrastructure that it built in Lebanon."

Channel One reported that a senior defense official said an IDF response was a matter of "when, not if." It was also reported that senior IDF officers were meeting to coordinate a response. Meanwhile, a high state of alert has been enforced thoughout the border region.

Channel two news reports that PM Ariel Sharon convened his inner cabinet in order to plan an Israeli response that will not lead to further escalation.

A Hizbullah press release transmitted on Hizbullah's Al Manar TV moments after the event said that members of Hizbullah's military wing, the Islamic Resistance at 4:35 PM fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli bulldozer that crossed the border into Lebanon near Birkat Rish.

The IDF denied that the vehicle had crossed over the border, channel One reported.

The roadside bombs were discovered two weeks ago, but are only being cleared now for operational and weather reasons, the radio reported.

"Holy warriors of the Islamic Resistance destroyed a hostile vehicle that violated the border line in the town of Marouahine in southern Lebanon," Al Manar said.

The broadcast did not give the type of vehicle or mention Israeli casualties.

The incident comes a few hours after Hizbullah fired anti-aircraft shells at IAF warplanes flying over Lebanese airspace.

With AP

[OnTheRocks]

Oh man :(

[One?]

The D9 must have crossed the border (even if it was an inch). They wouldn't hit anything inside israel because they know this is against the "game".

They wouldnt want to give Israel an excuse to bomb lebanon.

As for the F15s :cantbeli: not to be arrogant but Israel knows the consequences of hitting deep within the lebanese borders. When they kidnapped 3 IDF soldeirs Israel said it wanted to bomb lebanon and they ended up doing nothing.


"Another sad incident by a terrorist organization in southern Lebanon, and another indication that the government of Lebanon is not fulfilling its international obligations to deploy to the border - UN resolution 425," Ganz said.

425 was never implemented by lebanon or israel.

And does anyone know anything about the IDF commando infiltration a couple days ago?

[UkrainianAmerican]

The D9 must have crossed the border (even if it was an inch). They wouldn't hit anything inside israel because they know this is against the "game".

They wouldnt want to give Israel an excuse to bomb lebanon.

As for the F15s :cantbeli: not to be arrogant but Israel knows the consequences of hitting deep within the lebanese borders. When they kidnapped 3 IDF soldeirs Israel said it wanted to bomb lebanon and they ended up doing nothing.


"Another sad incident by a terrorist organization in southern Lebanon, and another indication that the government of Lebanon is not fulfilling its international obligations to deploy to the border - UN resolution 425," Ganz said.

425 was never implemented by lebanon or israel.

And does anyone know anything about the IDF commando infiltration a couple days ago?
I know Lebanon is your homeland and stuff, but you dont have to "blindly" defend hizbollah all the time, I mean even CANADA (haha) put them on the terrorist list.

[One?]

The D9 must have crossed the border (even if it was an inch). They wouldn't hit anything inside israel because they know this is against the "game".

They wouldnt want to give Israel an excuse to bomb lebanon.

As for the F15s :cantbeli: not to be arrogant but Israel knows the consequences of hitting deep within the lebanese borders. When they kidnapped 3 IDF soldeirs Israel said it wanted to bomb lebanon and they ended up doing nothing.


"Another sad incident by a terrorist organization in southern Lebanon, and another indication that the government of Lebanon is not fulfilling its international obligations to deploy to the border - UN resolution 425," Ganz said.

425 was never implemented by lebanon or israel.

And does anyone know anything about the IDF commando infiltration a couple days ago?
I know Lebanon is your homeland and stuff, but you dont have to "blindly" defend hizbollah all the time, I mean even CANADA (haha) put them on the terrorist list.



And Canada put them on the list due to a false report in the NY Times. The report said that nasrallah claimed "he wanted to kill israelis everywhere".

A cbc documentary translated the speach and no where in that speach did he mention anything about killing israelis outside lebanon.

According to the documentary the canadian government is considering taking them of the list because the speach was made up.


And how do I defend them blindly? (not being sarcastic I would realy like to know)

[UkrainianAmerican]

The D9 must have crossed the border (even if it was an inch). They wouldn't hit anything inside israel because they know this is against the "game".

They wouldnt want to give Israel an excuse to bomb lebanon.

As for the F15s :cantbeli: not to be arrogant but Israel knows the consequences of hitting deep within the lebanese borders. When they kidnapped 3 IDF soldeirs Israel said it wanted to bomb lebanon and they ended up doing nothing.


"Another sad incident by a terrorist organization in southern Lebanon, and another indication that the government of Lebanon is not fulfilling its international obligations to deploy to the border - UN resolution 425," Ganz said.

425 was never implemented by lebanon or israel.

And does anyone know anything about the IDF commando infiltration a couple days ago?
I know Lebanon is your homeland and stuff, but you dont have to "blindly" defend hizbollah all the time, I mean even CANADA (haha) put them on the terrorist list.



And Canada put them on the list due to a false report in the NY Times. The report said that nasrallah claimed "he wanted to kill israelis everywhere".

A cbc documentary translated the speach and no where in that speach did he mention anything about killing israelis outside lebanon.

According to the documentary the canadian government is considering taking them of the list because the speach was made up.


And how do I defend them blindly? (not being sarcastic I would realy like to know)
ok u said the following:The D9 must have crossed the border (even if it was an inch). They wouldn't hit anything inside israel because they know this is against the "game". "
I mean, you have a lot of confidence in terms of them following the rules.

[Javehn]

Ok , from what i understand UNIFIL acknowlaged , that they saw missile fired , from Lebanon territory inside Israel territory . Israel pressed charges in UN council .

[UkrainianAmerican]

Ok , from what i understand UNIFIL acknowlaged , that they saw missile fired , from Lebanon territory inside Israel territory . Israel pressed charges in UN council .
Now, One, I hope you will follow my suggestion and stop believing everyword a hizbollah PR department is going to tell you.

[StarvingStudent47]

Hezbollah blew up a synagogoue in Turkey (20+ dead) and Jewish community center in Argentina (nearly 100 dead). They hijacked an Air France plane.

How precisely are those acts NOT terrorism? How precisely are these acts "following the rules" as One says? It baffles my mind that people would deny that Hezbollah is a terrorist group.

[Mr. Nielsen]

And does anyone know anything about the IDF commando infiltration a couple days ago?

No, I haven't heard about Israeli personel crossing the border since they withdrew in 2000. I know of course that Israel regularly violates lebanese air space and terrorizes people with sonic booms.

[Javehn]

El Jazeera reports :

Israeli Soldier killed .

Monday 19 January 2004, 22:40 Makka Time, 19:40 GMT


Israel keeps a military presence along the volatile border



Related:
Hizb Allah insists on prisoner release
Israeli planes draw Hizb Allah fire
Secrecy over Hizb Allah-Israel talks
Israeli jets pound Lebanese village



An Israeli soldier has died in south Lebanon after the army bulldozer he was in tried to enter the country, drawing fire from Lebanese resistance fighters.


A second Israeli soldier was injured in the incident on Monday, reported Israeli military officials.


Al-Manar television reported that Hizb Allah had destroyed the vehicle that crossed the border near the Lebanese town of Marwahine.


A statement released by Hizb Allah said: "It is not the first time that the enemy has been behind such violations in more than one border area."


The Israeli army commander on the Lebanon border, Maj. Gen. Benny Gantz, claimed that a bulldozer was clearing land on the Israeli side of the border when it was hit. He said it was hit with an anti-tank missile.

Earlier on Monday the United Nations condemned Israel for its persistent intrusions into Lebanese airspace since it ended its 22-year occupation of south Lebanon in May 2000.

Israeli jets violated Lebanon's airspace before today's incident, breaking the sound barrier and causing sonic booms.

"The United Nations expresses its dismay regarding the large number of Israeli air violations of the Blue Line (UN border demarcation) on 19 January, 2004, when 10 overflights were recorded," said UN representative Staffan de Mistura.

"Today's numerous overflights and anti-aircraft fire have disrupted some apparent restraint over the past two weeks in which no Israeli air violations were recorded and a longer period with no Hizb Allah anti-aircraft fire," he said.

Hizb Allah spearheaded efforts to oust Israeli occupation forces from south Lebanon

[UkrainianAmerican]

And does anyone know anything about the IDF commando infiltration a couple days ago?

No, I haven't heard about Israeli personel crossing the border since they withdrew in 2000. I know of course that Israel regularly violates lebanese air space and terrorizes people with sonic booms.
OOh sonic booms and terrorizing go hand in hand in your little world. Wow.

[Russian Texan]

RussianAmerican.....huh... if you say so :)
Not that I have a problem with it but how many Russians, and I mean Russian Russsinas, do you know that care or would get involved into that Israel/Palestine issue? ;) You are the first one I know :)

But if you say you are Russian, then Russian you are.....

P.S. don't get me wrong, it is just an observation so to speak ;)

[S'13]

The D9 must have crossed the border (even if it was an inch). They wouldn't hit anything inside israel because they know this is against the "game".

They wouldnt want to give Israel an excuse to bomb lebanon.

Have we forgoten the terror attack near Mezuba (well inside Israel's borders)?

[citizen-k]

Hezbollah blew up a synagogoue in Turkey (20+ dead) and Jewish community center in Argentina (nearly 100 dead). They hijacked an Air France plane.

How precisely are those acts NOT terrorism? How precisely are these acts "following the rules" as One says? It baffles my mind that people would deny that Hezbollah is a terrorist group.

Infiltrate Israel and murder 6 civilians is not "Terror"?


http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D190104/site_of_attack.jpg

btw, I live on the edge of the finger - south east of the "n" in "Lebanon"...

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican.....huh... if you say so :)
Not that I have a problem with it but how many Russians, and I mean Russian Russsinas, do you know that care or would get involved into that Israel/Palestine issue? ;) You are the first one I know :)

But if you say you are Russian, then Russian you are.....

P.S. don't get me wrong, it is just an observation so to speak ;)
Well my culture is partly russian, partly american, hence RussianAmerican. I have jewish ancestry but I dont follow jewish culture. Since russian is not a race (slav is) I think its fair to call myself russian american.

[Javehn]

RussianTexan has a great BS detector (other thread) ;)

From what i understand , that was preplaned ambush , that got planned for 2 weeks . Hisballah fighters planted for 2 weeks mine area in Israeli soil , and waited for vehicle to come and clear it up . It happend , and the ambush fired missile on D9 .

[Mr. Nielsen]

Major General Benny Gantz, head of GOC Northern Command, said the bulldozer crossed an Israeli security fence to clear the bombs planted by Hezbollah but operated short of the international frontier.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/384676.html

According to this report from Haaretz the fence is placed a distance from the border on the inside side. So that the bulldozer could cross the fence and still be within the border. Perhaps Hizbollah thinks the fence is the border? By the way, why would Israel not place the fence right on the border (because of servicing it?)?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Major General Benny Gantz, head of GOC Northern Command, said the bulldozer crossed an Israeli security fence to clear the bombs planted by Hezbollah but operated short of the international frontier.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/384676.html

According to this report from Haaretz the fence is placed a distance from the border on the inside side. So that the bulldozer could cross the fence and still be within the border. Perhaps Hizbollah thinks the fence is the border? By the way, why would Israel not place the fence right on the border (because of servicing it?)?
Well, OBVIOUSLY to fool the peacelove hizbulloonians into thinking they are being invaded by the evil zionists.

[One?]

Hezbollah blew up a synagogoue in Turkey (20+ dead) and Jewish community center in Argentina (nearly 100 dead). They hijacked an Air France plane.

How precisely are those acts NOT terrorism? How precisely are these acts "following the rules" as One says? It baffles my mind that people would deny that Hezbollah is a terrorist group.

2 Israelis caught spying on the Arab League (today). They were caught by egyptian intel officers.

Anyways back to the argument.

You can accuse anyone of anything. Air France wasn't hijacked by hezbollah it was hijacked by some algerians.

Citizen-K the 6 civilians that were killed in the north WERE IN NO WAY LINKED to hezbollah. They assumed hezbollah did it because they were close to the north. It couldnt of been any of the palestinian organizations. Crossing the fence is not a walk in the park.

Hezbollah would target IDF soldeirs in the shebaa farms but never inside israel . Israel bombs anything within the shebaa farms but not beyond. Thats playing by the rules.




OOh sonic booms and terrorizing go hand in hand in your little world. Wow.

would you like Iranian planes flying over Israel for fun? Oh I'm sure you wouldn't mind.

[Javehn]

Indeed , typical remark . BECAUSE THE LAND DOESN'T ALWAYS ALLOW THE FENCE TO PASS ON THE SAME PLACE , AS MAP SAY IT IS . AND FOR 99 PERCENT OF IT . You know , geography is a bitch . You want me bring you map ?? No problem .Heard about Relief map ?

[Mr. Nielsen]

OOh sonic booms and terrorizing go hand in hand in your little world. Wow.

terrorizing in the original meaning of the word: terrify, frighten

[He219]

Major General Benny Gantz, head of GOC Northern Command, said the bulldozer crossed an Israeli security fence to clear the bombs planted by Hezbollah but operated short of the international frontier.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/384676.html

According to this report from Haaretz the fence is placed a distance from the border on the inside side. So that the bulldozer could cross the fence and still be within the border. Perhaps Hizbollah thinks the fence is the border? By the way, why would Israel not place the fence right on the border (because of servicing it?)?

That reminds me of the 'Security Wall' located partially within (occupied)Territories...

What the heck is the 'international frontier'? Some sort of DMZ?

[UkrainianAmerican]

OOh sonic booms and terrorizing go hand in hand in your little world. Wow.

terrorizing in the original meaning of the word: terrify, frighten
Yep cuz those evil pilots have nothing better to do then scare some drug hustlers with sonic booms.

[Javehn]

There is no DMZ between Lebanon ground , and Israel ground . There is a fence , same fence that you call the wall , this fence passing between Israel and Lebanon , so Hisballah can infiltrate until the fence itself . Why it's not the same as on map ? No , Israelies aren't land thirsty , look up why ^^.

[One?]

OOh sonic booms and terrorizing go hand in hand in your little world. Wow.

terrorizing in the original meaning of the word: terrify, frighten
Yep cuz those evil pilots have nothing better to do then scare some drug hustlers with sonic booms.

No but when they train over lebanon, spy and what not it becomes a problem.

[UkrainianAmerican]

OOh sonic booms and terrorizing go hand in hand in your little world. Wow.

terrorizing in the original meaning of the word: terrify, frighten
Yep cuz those evil pilots have nothing better to do then scare some drug hustlers with sonic booms.

No but when they train over lebanon, spy and what not it becomes a problem.
why would they TRAIN over a hostile area? I doubt they like AA guns blazing away at them...
As for spying those are high altitude planes, which needless to say dont exactly cuz that much noise (if u r on the ground)

[He219]

Then I take it the international frontier is Lebanon?

That would make Lebanon anything outside of the Security Fence...

I just want to know the location of the bulldozer's position.

[Mr. Nielsen]

I don't think the border is very much disputed, at least not anything like the border between the palestinians and Israel. Apart from the Sheeba which Lebanon and Syria says is lebanese, and Israel says is Syrian.

[citizen-k]

Hezbollah blew up a synagogoue in Turkey (20+ dead) and Jewish community center in Argentina (nearly 100 dead). They hijacked an Air France plane.

How precisely are those acts NOT terrorism? How precisely are these acts "following the rules" as One says? It baffles my mind that people would deny that Hezbollah is a terrorist group.

2 Israelis caught spying on the Arab League (today). They were caught by egyptian intel officers.

Anyways back to the argument.

You can accuse anyone of anything. Air France wasn't hijacked by hezbollah it was hijacked by some algerians.

Citizen-K the 6 civilians that were killed in the north WERE IN NO WAY LINKED to hezbollah. They assumed hezbollah did it because they were close to the north. It couldnt of been any of the palestinian organizations. Crossing the fence is not a walk in the park.

Hezbollah would target IDF soldeirs in the shebaa farms but never inside israel . Israel bombs anything within the shebaa farms but not beyond. Thats playing by the rules.




OOh sonic booms and terrorizing go hand in hand in your little world. Wow.

would you like Iranian planes flying over Israel for fun? Oh I'm sure you wouldn't mind.

A. No one, and I repeat, NO ONE, is allowed to do anything in SL that has got to do with terror acts or drug dealing without a permission from Hizbulla.


B. The 3 soldiors were NOT kiddnapped from the Shaba farms - so there goes your main issue.

[Russian Texan]

Question for the Israelis

Guys, when did it all start (with arabs I mean) and when/how it will end?
I do not know much about pre-history of entire Arabs/Paestinians/Israelis deal but I do know that suicide bombing civilians is wrong. Another thing that amazes me is that every time you see Palestinians on TV, they walk around with guns, shout something and generally try to look very tough and brave, but if the battle erupts - they run away or covardly shoot from behind civilians. I mean if you are all that rough and tough, come out and fight like a man, but then I remember that in a last century Israel twice kicked arabs butt (still don't get how they pulled that stunt...) Anyways, where is the end?

[One?]

I don't think the border is very much disputed, at least not anything like the border between the palestinians and Israel. Apart from the Sheeba which Lebanon and Syria says is lebanese, and Israel says is Syrian.

The UN came up with the "blue line" which seperated the border between lebanon and israel except for the farms.

RussianAmerican:

would you feel safer going to battle when you had real AA fired at you before. Or when you train with simulated AA fire? And you obviously just say things for the hell of it, for the sake of arguing.

[Javehn]

The location of buldozer near Israeli border town of Zareit , while clearing mine field that discovered 2 weeks ago .

Where is it ends ? I am ready to end it right here .

[UkrainianAmerican]

Question for the Israelis

Guys, when did it all start (with arabs I mean) and when/how it will end?
I do not know much about pre-history of entire Arabs/Paestinians/Israelis deal but I do know that suicide bombing civilians is wrong. Another thing that amazes me is that every time you see Palestinians on TV, they walk around with guns, shout something and generally try to look very tough and brave, but if the battle erupts - they run away or covardly shoot from behind civilians. I mean if you are all that rough and tough, come out and fight like a man, but then I remember that in a last century Israel twice kicked arabs butt (still don't get how they pulled that stunt...) Anyways, where is the end?
Hey russian russian, what are you doing on this thread lol.
j/k :hug:

[One?]

Question for the Israelis

Guys, when did it all start (with arabs I mean) and when/how it will end?
I do not know much about pre-history of entire Arabs/Paestinians/Israelis deal but I do know that suicide bombing civilians is wrong. Another thing that amazes me is that every time you see Palestinians on TV, they walk around with guns, shout something and generally try to look very tough and brave, but if the battle erupts - they run away or covardly shoot from behind civilians. I mean if you are all that rough and tough, come out and fight like a man, but then I remember that in a last century Israel twice kicked arabs butt (still don't get how they pulled that stunt...) Anyways, where is the end?


the end won't be soon and it started a very long time ago.

Palestinians do not shoot from behind civilians thats a false fact. The only time they shoot at israelis is when they enter settlements, or fighting against soldiers in an urban area.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I don't think the border is very much disputed, at least not anything like the border between the palestinians and Israel. Apart from the Sheeba which Lebanon and Syria says is lebanese, and Israel says is Syrian.

The UN came up with the "blue line" which seperated the border between lebanon and israel except for the farms.

RussianAmerican:

would you feel safer going to battle when you had real AA fired at you before. Or when you train with simulated AA fire? And you obviously just say things for the hell of it, for the sake of arguing.
Um, i know that IAF has some tough standards, but I doubt it involves training excercises with real fire.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Question for the Israelis

Guys, when did it all start (with arabs I mean) and when/how it will end?
I do not know much about pre-history of entire Arabs/Paestinians/Israelis deal but I do know that suicide bombing civilians is wrong. Another thing that amazes me is that every time you see Palestinians on TV, they walk around with guns, shout something and generally try to look very tough and brave, but if the battle erupts - they run away or covardly shoot from behind civilians. I mean if you are all that rough and tough, come out and fight like a man, but then I remember that in a last century Israel twice kicked arabs butt (still don't get how they pulled that stunt...) Anyways, where is the end?


the end won't be soon and it started a very long time ago.

Palestinians do not shoot from behind civilians thats a false fact. The only time they shoot at israelis is when they enter settlements, or fighting against soldiers in an urban area.
and 2+2 = 5 right?

[Javehn]

Just a little ask, can we discust this one without a problems ? We had our laugh and fun in other Swedish thread , please without bashing . The facts One stating are wrong , and just from personal experience . But no need to bash it over and over again .

[One?]

I don't think the border is very much disputed, at least not anything like the border between the palestinians and Israel. Apart from the Sheeba which Lebanon and Syria says is lebanese, and Israel says is Syrian.

The UN came up with the "blue line" which seperated the border between lebanon and israel except for the farms.

RussianAmerican:

would you feel safer going to battle when you had real AA fired at you before. Or when you train with simulated AA fire? And you obviously just say things for the hell of it, for the sake of arguing.
Um, i know that IAF has some tough standards, but I doubt it involves training excercises with real fire.

They fly at hight altitudes. AA fire wont reach the planes, so technicaly they wont be harmed. But they will get to know the lebanese terrain, maybe for future missions.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I don't think the border is very much disputed, at least not anything like the border between the palestinians and Israel. Apart from the Sheeba which Lebanon and Syria says is lebanese, and Israel says is Syrian.

The UN came up with the "blue line" which seperated the border between lebanon and israel except for the farms.

RussianAmerican:

would you feel safer going to battle when you had real AA fired at you before. Or when you train with simulated AA fire? And you obviously just say things for the hell of it, for the sake of arguing.
Um, i know that IAF has some tough standards, but I doubt it involves training excercises with real fire.

They fly at hight altitudes. AA fire wont reach the planes, so technicaly they wont be harmed. But they will get to know the lebanese terrain, maybe for future missions.
or maybe just MAYBE they are not entering lebanese airspace, and just fly around northern border, where hizbollah shoots at them.

[citizen-k]

Question for the Israelis

Guys, when did it all start (with arabs I mean) and when/how it will end?
I do not know much about pre-history of entire Arabs/Paestinians/Israelis deal but I do know that suicide bombing civilians is wrong. Another thing that amazes me is that every time you see Palestinians on TV, they walk around with guns, shout something and generally try to look very tough and brave, but if the battle erupts - they run away or covardly shoot from behind civilians. I mean if you are all that rough and tough, come out and fight like a man, but then I remember that in a last century Israel twice kicked arabs butt (still don't get how they pulled that stunt...) Anyways, where is the end?


the end won't be soon and it started a very long time ago.

Palestinians do not shoot from behind civilians thats a false fact. The only time they shoot at israelis is when they enter settlements, or fighting against soldiers in an urban area.

rofl rofl rofl

http://www.bambili.com/data/news_pic/upload_photo_uploadzz170502.jpg

want some more?

[One?]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.

[Mr. Nielsen]

I don't think the border is very much disputed, at least not anything like the border between the palestinians and Israel. Apart from the Sheeba which Lebanon and Syria says is lebanese, and Israel says is Syrian.

The UN came up with the "blue line" which seperated the border between lebanon and israel except for the farms.

RussianAmerican:

would you feel safer going to battle when you had real AA fired at you before. Or when you train with simulated AA fire? And you obviously just say things for the hell of it, for the sake of arguing.
Um, i know that IAF has some tough standards, but I doubt it involves training excercises with real fire.

The lebanese have no air force. The syrian air force is obsolete, and so are there air defences. Basicly lebanon and syria is a vacuum in a military sense, with modern air planes and good training the IAF can operate with impunity like NATO over balkan.

[Javehn]

Ahh , please , not again . For crying out lowd . RIP to soldier that died .

From what i understood , and said allready , it was preplaned ambush there , and someone had made a little f_ck up .

[One?]

Question for the Israelis

Guys, when did it all start (with arabs I mean) and when/how it will end?
I do not know much about pre-history of entire Arabs/Paestinians/Israelis deal but I do know that suicide bombing civilians is wrong. Another thing that amazes me is that every time you see Palestinians on TV, they walk around with guns, shout something and generally try to look very tough and brave, but if the battle erupts - they run away or covardly shoot from behind civilians. I mean if you are all that rough and tough, come out and fight like a man, but then I remember that in a last century Israel twice kicked arabs butt (still don't get how they pulled that stunt...) Anyways, where is the end?


the end won't be soon and it started a very long time ago.

Palestinians do not shoot from behind civilians thats a false fact. The only time they shoot at israelis is when they enter settlements, or fighting against soldiers in an urban area.

rofl rofl rofl

http://www.bambili.com/data/news_pic/upload_photo_uploadzz170502.jpg

want some more?

Are they shooting at Israeli soldeirs? no...its a demonstration.

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

[He219]

I agree, RIP to the IDF bulldozer driver....

:(

[One?]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I don't think the border is very much disputed, at least not anything like the border between the palestinians and Israel. Apart from the Sheeba which Lebanon and Syria says is lebanese, and Israel says is Syrian.

The UN came up with the "blue line" which seperated the border between lebanon and israel except for the farms.

RussianAmerican:

would you feel safer going to battle when you had real AA fired at you before. Or when you train with simulated AA fire? And you obviously just say things for the hell of it, for the sake of arguing.
Um, i know that IAF has some tough standards, but I doubt it involves training excercises with real fire.

The lebanese have no air force. The syrian air force is obsolete, and so are there air defences. Basicly lebanon and syria is a vacuum in a military sense, with modern air planes and good training the IAF can operate with impunity like NATO over balkan.
http://serbnews.com/f117/f117wreck26.jpg
Downed Stealth f 117
(no offense to NATO, just pointing out that "impunity" is relative)

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky. And um how did u know it was Israeli (As opposed to syrian for example)

[Mr. Nielsen]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

It's also reported by western journalists. I don't know about Hizbollah TV, buts it's my impression that al-jazeera is an objective news channel.

[citizen-k]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky. And um how did u know it was Israeli (As opposed to syrian for example)

If you look carefully under the tail you can see the plane is circumcised rofl

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky. And um how did u know it was Israeli (As opposed to syrian for example)

If you look carefully under the tail you can see the plane is circumcised rofl
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

It's also reported by western journalists. I don't know about Hizbollah TV, buts it's my impression that al-jazeera is an objective news channel.Case closed. Next...

[One?]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky. And um how did u know it was Israeli (As opposed to syrian for example)

If you look carefully under the tail you can see the plane is circumcised rofl

mmm both jews and muslims are circumsized :roll:

Anyways RussianAmerican you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Obviously you've never been to Israel and havn't seen a real IDF soldier.

[Javehn]

It's also reported by western journalists. I don't know about Hizbollah TV, buts it's my impression that al-jazeera is an objective news channel.


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Someone would agree on that ? Probably most political - religios oriantated channel in the sector , after El-Arabia , and before El-Manar .

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky. And um how did u know it was Israeli (As opposed to syrian for example)

If you look carefully under the tail you can see the plane is circumcised rofl

mmm both jews and muslims are circumsized :roll:

Anyways RussianAmerican you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Obviously you've never been to Israel and havn't seen a real IDF soldier. :cantbeli:
My uncle serves in the IDF. Around passover time he eats matzoh mades with muslims childrens blood.

[Roger Rabbit]

I get mine from tesco.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I get mine from tesco.
My uncle accepts no cheap substitutes.

[citizen-k]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky. And um how did u know it was Israeli (As opposed to syrian for example)

If you look carefully under the tail you can see the plane is circumcised rofl

mmm both jews and muslims are circumsized :roll:

Anyways RussianAmerican you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Obviously you've never been to Israel and havn't seen a real IDF soldier.

The question is does muslim planes are circumsized as well?

Last time I saw a muslim plane was during the 80's - and he was flying towards the ground... so I couldn't see.

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican, sometimes they do and sometimes they fly all the way over the northern lebanese border, bekaa valley.
ANd how would you know that? did u see IAF f16s over your house in lebanon or something? I mean seriously, do you believe everything that al-jazeera or hizbollah tv tell you?

Yes I've seen them fly over my house during the summer. Its not hard to spot a fighter. All you have to do is follow the white line in the blue sky. And um how did u know it was Israeli (As opposed to syrian for example)

If you look carefully under the tail you can see the plane is circumcised rofl

mmm both jews and muslims are circumsized :roll:

Anyways RussianAmerican you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Obviously you've never been to Israel and havn't seen a real IDF soldier.

The question is does muslim planes are circumsized as well?

Last time I saw a muslim plane was during the 80's - and he was flying towards the ground... so I couldn't see.
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[One?]

citizen-k maybe they will be circumsizing the new F16i.


you all need a :hug:

[Mr. Nielsen]

Downed Stealth f 117
(no offense to NATO, just pointing out that "impunity" is relative)

Impunity is relative indeed. Depending on your willingness to accept losses. I don't think the risk over Lebanon keeps the IAF generals up at night. Entering syrian air space will probaly taking more planning. Besides I have the idea that the serb's better knew how to get the most out of their obsolete equipment, than the syrians.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Downed Stealth f 117
(no offense to NATO, just pointing out that "impunity" is relative)

Impunity is relative indeed. Depending on your willingness to accept losses. I don't think the risk over Lebanon keeps the IAF generals up at night. Entering syrian air space will probaly taking more planning. Besides I have the idea that the serb's better knew how to get the most out of their obsolete equipment, than the syrians.
True enough, but I dont think that any decent general would sned his trainees into enemy airspace.

[citizen-k]

citizen-k maybe they will be circumsizing the new F16i.


you all need a :hug:

We are neighbours - be nice!

[One?]

citizen-k maybe they will be circumsizing the new F16i.


you all need a :hug:

We are neighbours - be nice!

well neighbours should be friends, so if you hug them its alright.

[UkrainianAmerican]

citizen-k maybe they will be circumsizing the new F16i.


you all need a :hug:

We are neighbours - be nice!

well neighbours should be friends, so if you hug them its alright.
Thats what happens if you watch too much teletubbies, kids.

[SeanAshi]

reprisals coming? if so what might they be?

[Mr. Nielsen]

reprisals coming? if so what might they be?

Hard to say, with a possible border crossing it's not a clearcut case of agression by Hizbollah.

So I guess it will depend on, whether Sharon likes or does not like to heat up the border.

Shelling of supposed Hizbollah positions across the border will properly not draw a response from Hizbollah and it might end there. If he hits harder, risking civilian casualties or going after the Hizbollah leadership, it might end in escalating rounds of tit for tat.

In the past Israel has struck against syrian radar positions in lebanon. Perhaps feeling it was the time to increase the pressure on syria, Sharon might be tempted to hit them again.

Bombing things inside syria I find unlikely. Last time the excuse was the killing of civilians in a suicide attack inside Israel, and it was heavily critisized then. And this time its about a possible border violation by Israel.

[SeanAshi]

Hezbollah leadership, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, is begging for a asskicking, and so is Assad, and Yassin, and Arafat, and Abdel Aziz Rantisi. :bash:

[One?]

Israel knows that if they hit beirut or any other lebanese city, then that is a major escalation. Before, katyousha rockets would hit the northern settlements. Now these rockets can reach 10km deeper into israel.

They might end up doing nothing, or bombing a syrian related target.


There is a simple way to find out if the D9 was inside lebanese territory or not. If the tanks is pulled out that means it was in israel, if not that means its in lebanon. But then again the soldeirs were pulled out of the D9 and taken to a hospital.

[SeanAshi]

The Syrians and Lebanese should not allow Hezbollah to operate freely or plan/conduct terrorist activites. Israel arrest their extremist, no excuses on why Syria and Lebanon can't do the same.

[One?]

The Syrians and Lebanese should not allow Hezbollah to operate freely or plan/conduct terrorist activites. Israel arrest their extremist, no excuses on why Syria and Lebanon can't do the same.

If you are a member of hezbollah then you can't be drafted into the lebanese army. The lebanese president proudly acknowledges that hezbollah is a legitimate resistance. The people help hezbollah move freely.


If they did not fight the IDF, Israel would still be in lebanon till this day.

How do they plan/ terrorist activities? If you don't mind explaining.

[SeanAshi]

If they did not fight the IDF, Israel would still be in lebanon till this day. :cantbeli:
Hezbollah didn't force Israel from Lebanon, It was Ehud Barak! Just like Egypts victory over Israel in the Yom Kippur war right? rofl Arabs turn every defeat into a victory :roll:

How do they plan/ terrorist activities? You being Lebanese you should know.

[One?]

If they did not fight the IDF, Israel would still be in lebanon till this day. :cantbeli:
Hezbollah didn't force Israel from Lebanon, It was Ehud Barak! Just like Egypts victory over Israel in the Yom Kippur war right? rofl Arabs turn every defeat into a victory :roll:

How do they plan/ terrorist activities? You being Lebanese you should know.


I'm asking you, and obviously you have no reply.

As for victory or what not, barak would of never pulled out if he wasn't loosing soldeirs, and pressure from israelis to withdraw. I am sure Israel didn't want katyoucha rockets falling on its settlements everyday or loosing 2 soldeirs a week. ;)

[alexbmn]

what the hell is going on with the army? There has been no response against Hamas,no responce against the PFLP bombing on December 25th,and of course there will be nothing done against Hezbollah. WHAT IN GOD'S NAME ARE THEY AFRAID OFF? THE wrath of the USSR?

[alexbmn]

two soldiers a week? More like nine per year,which was a decrease from years before.

[SeanAshi]

I am sure Israel didn't want katyoucha rockets falling on its settlements everyday or loosing 2 soldeirs a week
Katyoucha rockets starting raining down, maybe Israel would counter with some Jerichos or Cruise missiles.

How do they plan/ terrorist activities?
Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad have offices in Damascus, I'm sure they don't just sit around smoking their pipe and praying all day long in them offices.

[StarvingStudent47]

what the hell is going on with the army? There has been no response against Hamas,no responce against the PFLP bombing on December 25th,and of course there will be nothing done against Hezbollah. WHAT IN GOD'S NAME ARE THEY AFRAID OFF? THE wrath of the USSR?

I think Bush is afraid of an OPEC boycott like in 1973. I think American policy would be very different if Israel had oil too, or Arab states didn't have oil. You don't see us negotiating with terrorists in Columbia or the Philippines, do you?

[StarvingStudent47]

How do they plan/ terrorist activities? If you don't mind explaining.

They sit in a circle, and decide whether they want to blow up US servicemen, or Argentinian civilians, or Turkish civilians, or just launch artillery shells into Israel again.

[SeanAshi]

Its time to tapp into Alaska and tell the Saudis to piss off

[StarvingStudent47]

Its time to tapp into Alaska and tell the Saudis to piss off

There's not that much oil in Alaska. Nothing near to Saudi oil reserves.

[StarvingStudent47]

"Let me tell you something that we Israelis have against Moses. He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil!" --Former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir

[UoUo]

One...do you know the numbers of israeli deads in south lebanon ?

Try to compare that number with Hizbulla members that died...

In 1999 :

13 israelis died in south lebanon....
Try to comapre it to USA loses in Iraq....

[UkrainianAmerican]

"Let me tell you something that we Israelis have against Moses. He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil!" --Former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[aktarian]

One...do you know the numbers of israeli deads in south lebanon ?

256 KIA, 840 WIA in 1985-2000 period. +12 at Ansariya +73 in February 1997 helicopter crash en route to Lebanon. Comprable to Israeli dead in road accidents in a year.




Try to compare that number with Hizbulla members that died...

Comparisons of this kind are BS and are used to hide the fact that you are loosing on strategic level. Comparison of Soviet/German casualties in WW2, French and US/Vietnamese, Soviet/Afghan will give you similar discrepancies. Then look at who won the war. p-)

[UoUo]

True...cuz you cannot win a gariala war.....

But comapring the Israeli loses to the american losing in vitenam is lame.

[Javehn]

I bellieve what UOUO is trying to say , is -
The fighting in SL during 1985 -2000 was a defensive stationery fighting . The major goll was to draw fighters from Israeli borders , and on those outposts . That goal was met , and for 15 years of IDF presence in SL , there were very few penetration inside of Israel . However , it didn't interfear Hisballah to fire Katyushas inside Israel , and forced IDF to locate offencive operation in the area .

[aktarian]

True...cuz you cannot win a gariala war.....

Just don't say that to Brits. ;)



But comapring the Israeli loses to the american losing in vitenam is lame.

You have to compare percentages of population, armed forces and goals (achieved).

[aktarian]

I bellieve what UOUO is trying to say , is -
The fighting in SL during 1985 -2000 was a defensive stationery fighting . The major goll was to draw fighters from Israeli borders , and on those outposts . That goal was met , and for 15 years of IDF presence in SL , there were very few penetration inside of Israel . However , it didn't interfear Hisballah to fire Katyushas inside Israel , and forced IDF to locate offencive operation in the area .

The goal was to prevent shelling of N Israel. This had mixed results. While Katyushas were fired after 1992 they were fired at maximum range (decreased accuracy) and no way for spotting so Hezbolah didn't know where they are falling (no corrections).

[UkrainianAmerican]

True...cuz you cannot win a gariala war.....

Just don't say that to Brits. ;)



But comapring the Israeli loses to the american losing in vitenam is lame.

You have to compare percentages of population, armed forces and goals (achieved).
The goal was to get the hizboolonians away from Israeli civilians. The goal was achieved.

[UoUo]

True...cuz you cannot win a gariala war.....

Just don't say that to Brits. ;)



But comapring the Israeli loses to the american losing in vitenam is lame.

You have to compare percentages of population, armed forces and goals (achieved).

Hmmm...didn't heard about british cities that bomb by katusa missile.

[Javehn]

The fact is , that there were many terror attacks made on Israeli soil , many attacks from the sea , or land infiltrations made by Araphat PLF group , based in SL , they were the reasons of repeating IDF operations in 70's inside SL . Shellings was also important part offcorse , of the 1982 war , and first meaning were ment to go at 40 km line from Israel border , in order to prevent them to launch shellings inside of Israel . But the IDF outposts were there to prevent incursions into Israeli territory .
The outposts acheaved they goals as "boolet and attack magnets " . The Hisballah combattants would much rather to fire it's shells on the outposts , instead of inside Israel territory (unlike some terror groups , that would rather to loose it's ammo on civils , but was very chip on soldiers ;) ) .

So , the Israeli presence in 1985 - 2000 , mostly served it's target , while outposts served as a blocking to Israel border , and the fire magnet . But , sence Israel is very low tollerant to millitary losses , the political pressure made Barak to withdraw troops from SL .

[aktarian]

Hmmm...didn't heard about british cities that bomb by katusa missile.

No, but that didn't prevent them from winning several guerilla wars. p-)

[Mr. Nielsen]

True...cuz you cannot win a gariala war.....

Just don't say that to Brits. ;)



But comapring the Israeli loses to the american losing in vitenam is lame.

You have to compare percentages of population, armed forces and goals (achieved).
The goal was to get the hizboolonians away from Israeli civilians. The goal was achieved.

Hizbollah's goal was to get Israel out of Lebanon. That goal was achieved too. So I guess everyone should be happy.

[UoUo]

True...cuz you cannot win a gariala war.....

Just don't say that to Brits. ;)



But comapring the Israeli loses to the american losing in vitenam is lame.

You have to compare percentages of population, armed forces and goals (achieved).
The goal was to get the hizboolonians away from Israeli civilians. The goal was achieved.

Hizbollah's goal was to get Israel out of Lebanon. That goal was achieved too. So I guess everyone should be happy.

And what is the goal now ?

[Hydro]

We never had Katyushas fired at our cities, though the IRA used to prefer putting mortars on the back of trucks and firing them into military bases, Downing Street etc.

Guerilla warfare? Malaya, Aden, Borneo, in fact most of the conflicts the UK was involved in in the late 50's - early 60's were mostly guerrilla orientated, and more often than not, Communist guerrillas.

[Javehn]

"The Hisballah goal was to get Israel out of Lebanon , so everybody happy" .

Hisballah goals aren't , or weren't to get Israel out of Lebanon (also if it was one of the main targets ) . Don't forget , that the fighting part of Hisballah , is just only a part of it . Hisballah goals are political , and they want to shape South Lebanon . A millitary attacks on Israel was , and is a neccesary part of it . Consider Hisballah as a mini government .
Those days they continue to attack Israel . They trying very much to legitimize it , and sometimes it is legit perhaps (at list for them) , but they don't always need a legitimation for they actions .

Ah , and now the hell come upon earth . IAF attacking targets all over Lebanon . That can't be good ..

[Mr. Nielsen]

And what is the goal now ?

Here is a couple of issues that might be relevant to the continuation of the conflict:

1: When Israel pulled out they still held Mustafa Dirani and Sheik Abdelkarim Obeid as bargaining chips to exchange with Israelis missing in action. This issue was left unsolved by the pull out, and Hizbollah was under pressure not to abandon the prisoners. And since they apparently didn't have Ron Arad they couldn't just make a deal with Israel.

2: The Sheeba Farms. From outside it might seem as an excuse to carry on the fight, but the lebanese seems to have quit strong emosions about the area. And to the rest us, its just another occupied area.

3: To keep the attention for use in lebanese politics.

4: Syrian interest in keeping pressure on Israel, until they pull out of Golan.

5: Justice and accountability for what happended during the Israeli stay in Lebanon.

6: Sympathy with palestinians and general dislike for Israel.

[He219]

Israeli Warplanes Hit Hizbollah Targets in Lebanon (http://news.lycos.com/news/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=815452)

JERUSALEM (*******) - Israeli warplanes attacked Hizbollah targets in Lebanon on Tuesday, a day after the Lebanese guerrilla group killed an Israeli soldier along the Israel-Lebanon frontier, Israeli military sources said.

The sources did not give the locations of the targets.

[Javehn]

And what is the goal now ?

Here is a couple of issues that might be relevant to the continuation of the conflict:

1: When Israel pulled out they still held Mustafa Dirani and Sheik Abdelkarim Obeid as bargaining chips to exchange with Israelis missing in action. This issue was left unsolved by the pull out, and Hizbollah was under pressure not to abandon the prisoners. And since they apparently didn't have Ron Arad they couldn't just make a deal with Israel.

2: The Sheeba Farms. From outside it might seem as an excuse to carry on the fight, but the lebanese seems to have quit strong emosions about the area. And to the rest us, its just another occupied area.

3: To keep the attention for use in lebanese politics.

4: Syrian interest in keeping pressure on Israel, until they pull out of Golan.

5: Justice and accountability for what happended during the Israeli stay in Lebanon.

6: Sympathy with palestinians and general dislike for Israel.

That is correct . Nice !! Can i ask you , where you read that ?

[aktarian]

Israel Planes Attack Hezbollah in Lebanon

By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israeli planes attacked Hezbollah targets in south Lebanon on Tuesday, Israeli military officials said, a day after the guerrilla group killed an Israeli soldier.


The Israeli strike hit Hezbollah bases in the Bekaa Valley, the area of south Lebanon closest to the Syrian border, the officials said on condition of anonymity.


There were no immediate reports of casualties. At least four explosions were heard in the strikes, Israel's Channel Two television reported.


Hezbollah guerrillas on Monday fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli bulldozer clearing explosives, killing an Israeli soldier and seriously wounding another. The group said the vehicle entered Lebanese territory.


The Israeli officials said the decision to attack Hezbollah targets was made at a four-hour meeting of senior military commanders on Tuesday. Though Israel held Syria responsible, it was decided not to attack Syria in order not to inflame the situation, the officials said.


Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz both said Syrian President Bashar Assad was responsible for Monday's incident.


After insisting that the bulldozer had not crossed the border, the Israeli army commander in the area, Col. Yair Golan, told Israel Radio on Tuesday that part of the vehicle had crossed into Lebanon while digging up the explosives.


Syria is widely believed to help arm and fund Hezbollah. Syria is on the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism, and Washington has threatened to impose sanctions for harboring anti-Israel militants. Hezbollah is on the U.S. State Department's list of terrorist organizations.


The Shiite Muslim group fought against Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon, which ended in May 2000 with a U.N.-approved Israeli pullback. Since then, there have been several cross-border incidents in which Israeli soldiers have been captured and killed. Israeli warplanes often fly over southern Lebanon, breaking the sound barrier.


"If President Assad thinks he's going to use Hezbollah as the long arm in the fight against us, he should know that our response will be very clear," Shalom said Tuesday.


Mofaz called Monday's attack an "intentional provocation by Syria and Hezbollah. Anyone who is involved in directing this attack will be held responsible."


Although Mofaz called for restraint, he said "Israel has the right, and more importantly, the highest moral obligation to defend its citizens and soldiers."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_lebanon

[One?]

"The Hisballah goal was to get Israel out of Lebanon , so everybody happy" .

Hisballah goals aren't , or weren't to get Israel out of Lebanon (also if it was one of the main targets ) . Don't forget , that the fighting part of Hisballah , is just only a part of it . Hisballah goals are political , and they want to shape South Lebanon . A millitary attacks on Israel was , and is a neccesary part of it . Consider Hisballah as a mini government .
Those days they continue to attack Israel . They trying very much to legitimize it , and sometimes it is legit perhaps (at list for them) , but they don't always need a legitimation for they actions .

Ah , and now the hell come upon earth . IAF attacking targets all over Lebanon . That can't be good ..

When hezbollah was first formed back in the 80's (during the civil war) they wanted to make lebanon an islamic country, that was their slogan. During the 90's they got rid of that idea and dedicated themselves to fighting the IDF. After the withdrawl they had the power to do anything they want in the south, ANYTHING. Instead not one SLA member was hit or beaten, they were all handed over to the lebanese army.

As you know the south has a majority of shia. So hezbollah is widly represented but there are other parties that are repsented in city councils such as amal, SSNP, Communist party, PSP etc...

If their goal wasn't to fight the IDF then what was it?


-----------------------------------------

Those who said that hezbollah killed argentians well make up your mind. First you arrest an Iranian diplomat blame it on him and now you are blaming hezbollah. And when did hezbollah kill turkish people?

[Javehn]

I am talking about IDF withdraw from Lebanon . They goal is to dedicate themselfes to south Lebanon , they have net schools , charity , work places , some black bussinesses and so on . I have long intellegence prospect allowed to public by freedom of info law about Hisballah , if you like i could translate it .

[One?]

I am talking about IDF withdraw from Lebanon . They goal is to dedicate themselfes to south Lebanon , they have net schools , charity , work places , some black bussinesses and so on . I have long intellegence prospect allowed to public by freedom of info law about Hisballah , if you like i could translate it .

They did indeed build schools, charities, etc.. because the government is not doing anything so far.

Also they have these social "works" in some areas of beirut and the north. They did that as a "payback" to the people who helped them.

I never denied that :)

[aktarian]

I am talking about IDF withdraw from Lebanon . They goal is to dedicate themselfes to south Lebanon , they have net schools , charity , work places , some black bussinesses and so on . I have long intellegence prospect allowed to public by freedom of info law about Hisballah , if you like i could translate it .

Don't forget hospitals (open to all), funds to families of those killed and construction company to rebuild houses that were destroyed. So what? It just shows that those who consider Hezbollah as just military organisation and took steps to destroy them by military means are wrong.

[Javehn]

The only ones that try to "destroy" Hisballah , is probably they concurenting parties in South Lebanon . I know that there were some tentions between Amal and Hisballah , because of Amal "too soft" attitude towards Israel .
But it is a fact , that Hisballah do have very good trained Army . Army .

[One?]

The only ones that try to "destroy" Hisballah , is probably they concurenting parties in South Lebanon . I know that there were some tentions between Amal and Hisballah , because of Amal "too soft" attitude towards Israel .
But it is a fact , that Hisballah do have very good trained Army . Army .

amal and hezbollah's rivalry goes back in the day when they fought eachother.

Hezbollah was amal before they broke off. During the war amal was like any other militia (stealing, raping etc...) Some of the amal leadership did not like that so they broke off and formed hezbollah. And from that day on they still hate eachother. Also its over who represents the shia. yes pretty gay if you think about it.

Javehn:

As for the army thing it has a bit of truth to it. Depends what you mean though.

[aktarian]

The only ones that try to "destroy" Hisballah , is probably they concurenting parties in South Lebanon . I know that there were some tentions between Amal and Hisballah , because of Amal "too soft" attitude towards Israel .
But it is a fact , that Hisballah do have very good trained Army . Army .

Israel tried that as well. ;)



amal and hezbollah's rivalry goes back in the day when they fought eachother.

Hezbollah was amal before they broke off. During the war amal was like any other militia (stealing, raping etc...) Some of the amal leadership did not like that so they broke off and formed hezbollah. And from that day on they still hate eachother. Also its over who represents the shia. yes pretty gay if you think about it.


However during Ansariya "incident" they cooperated just fine.

[UoUo]

I don't see what you want to prove....that the hizbulla is stronger then the IDF or what ?

[One?]

aktarian they do cooperate its not like they don't. But they still have a thing for eachother, they still compete for political power etc..

UoUO who you refering to?

[UoUo]

aktarian they do cooperate its not like they don't. But they still have a thing for eachother, they still compete for political power etc..

UoUO who you refering to?

Aktarian and you...in every post about israel and the huzbulla.
Mostly aktarian.

[One?]

aktarian they do cooperate its not like they don't. But they still have a thing for eachother, they still compete for political power etc..

UoUO who you refering to?

Aktarian and you...in every post about israel and the huzbulla.
Mostly aktarian.

How can gurilla fighters be better than an organized army? But they can inflict damage and annoy the enemy.

[UoUo]

aktarian they do cooperate its not like they don't. But they still have a thing for eachother, they still compete for political power etc..

UoUO who you refering to?

Aktarian and you...in every post about israel and the huzbulla.
Mostly aktarian.

How can gurilla fighters be better than an organized army? But they can inflict damage and annoy the enemy.

I agree....but still i just have the felling that you trying to prove it....mayve is just my fellings. p-)

[aktarian]

I don't see what you want to prove....that the hizbulla is stronger then the IDF or what ?

It would be nice to quote what you are refering to, so that others know. My point was that Israelis considered Hezbollah only military organisation and adopted military aproach to combat it. Basically destroy them in military sense and believing this will solve Israeli problems. This aproach proved to be wrong because Hezbollah is much more than just military organisation and any military setback could be repaired by other branches. Plus you know "fish in pond" and such.

[aktarian]

aktarian they do cooperate its not like they don't. But they still have a thing for eachother, they still compete for political power etc..


I know they compete, but they don't fight each other anymore, but cooperate. Altough I must admit I don't know to what extent Amal was disarmed after Taif.

[Javehn]

Why would Israel destroy non millitary part of Hisballah ? It is like to fight with country , and at the same time to destroy it's political , economica and social infrastructures . That is just not the goal . Israeli made that on Hamas, sence they action become over exagurated , like targetting civilians . So it was neccessary to destroy it's infrastructure from the root .

[One?]

Why would Israel destroy non millitary part of Hisballah ? It is like to fight with country , and at the same time to destroy it's political , economica and social infrastructures . That is just not the goal . Israeli made that on Hamas, sence they action become over exagurated , like targetting civilians . So it was neccessary to destroy it's infrastructure from the root .

are you sure you're in the idf :roll: ?


I know they compete, but they don't fight each other anymore, but cooperate. Altough I must admit I don't know to what extent Amal was disarmed after Taif.

speaker of the house is the leader of amal, so imagine how much they got disarmed. Their tanks and armor is gone. I think they still have small arms, but not the same amount before the taif. After the withdrawl amal fighters popped out of no where with their guns.

[aktarian]

Why would Israel destroy non millitary part of Hisballah ? It is like to fight with country , and at the same time to destroy it's political , economica and social infrastructures . That is just not the goal . Israeli made that on Hamas, sence they action become over exagurated , like targetting civilians . So it was neccessary to destroy it's infrastructure from the root .

Because if Israelis killed some Hezbollah members Hezbollah could easilly replace them because they had support of population and they got this support because they had non-military branches. Opening hospitals and repairing houses goes a long way toward endearing you to locals. As does financial support for families of those killed.

BTW, going after enemy infrastructure is one main goals. In USAF 5-rings strategy armed forces are on outer, least important.

Going after just military wing it's as if Wallies would say "we'll bomb German industry into dust, but we woun't interfere with them building new factories or importing material to build new machines." It's a strategy, but it needs to destroy more enemy resources than he can replace at the same time.

[One?]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?

[UkrainianAmerican]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

[One?]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

getting the yearly check-up :roll:

[UkrainianAmerican]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

getting the yearly check-up :roll:
For brain cancer i presume.

[Falco]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

Posing as someone getting his yearly checkup while he is finalizing his diabolical plan to conquer the world. :-*$

[One?]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

getting the yearly check-up :roll:
For brain cancer i presume.

are you making fun of people with brain cancer? thats not a funny joke people have feelings you know.

[UkrainianAmerican]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

getting the yearly check-up :roll:
For brain cancer i presume.

are you making fun of people with brain cancer? thats not a funny joke people have feelings you know.
No I am making fun of people with the deaths of many civilians on their hands.

[One?]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

getting the yearly check-up :roll:
For brain cancer i presume.

are you making fun of people with brain cancer? thats not a funny joke people have feelings you know.
No I am making fun of people with the deaths of many civilians on their hands.

Well israel is not innocent either. It has its own share of killing civilians.

[UkrainianAmerican]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

getting the yearly check-up :roll:
For brain cancer i presume.

are you making fun of people with brain cancer? thats not a funny joke people have feelings you know.
No I am making fun of people with the deaths of many civilians on their hands.

Well israel is not innocent either. It has its own share of killing civilians.
Big difference between murder and manslaughter, my friend.

[IDFM203]

The political wing are civilians. You want to go after hospitals and schools? Is that what you want to bomb?
What are the "politicians" doing is schools and hospitals anyway?

getting the yearly check-up :roll:
For brain cancer i presume.

are you making fun of people with brain cancer? thats not a funny joke people have feelings you know.
No I am making fun of people with the deaths of many civilians on their hands.

Well israel is not innocent either. It has its own share of killing civilians.no one in this world is perfect and yes Israel has made mistakes in the past HOWEVER Israel for the most part does NOT intentionally target civilians as the Palestinians and a lot of times hetballh have constantantly done in the past and consistently do now.

Shalom :D

[One?]

LOL welcome back :lol:

hezbellah fired at civilians after lebanese civilians were killed or lebanese (non military) buildings were hit. Such as power generating plants.

[IDFM203]

LOL welcome back :lol:


hezbellah fired at civilians after lebanese civilians were killed or lebanese (non military) buildings were hit. Such as power generating plants.First I appreciate you welcoming me back :D

Its great to be back :D

Now on to business ;)

Listen we can go back and forth (as you know from our past experiences) on who started what and who in fact is responding here in most cases but like I said before, for the most part the IDF has not now nor before intentionally targeted civilians and when the times that civilians were killed by accident after Israel targeted hetsbblah attackers, it was sad but it was not intentional. The same is not true for hetbblah where at times it has in fact intentionally targeted Israeli civilians (not all the time but they have done it on quite a number of times) and its that intention that is a big difference.

Shalom :D

[Mr. Nielsen]

The same is not true for hetbblah where at times it has in fact intentionally targeted Israeli civilians (not all the time but they have done it on quite a number of times) and its that intention that is a big difference.

So you are not talking about Argentina, but rockets over the border?

[IDFM203]

”The same is not true for hetbblah where at times it has in fact intentionally targeted Israeli civilians (not all the time but they have done it on quite a number of times) and its that intention that is a big difference.”

So you are not talking about Argentina, but rockets over the border? both!!

Be it rocket or mortar fire etc…into Israeli civilian towns and villages that have been targeted in the past where there was and is no military base or outpost there nor did any IDF fire ever come from there.

That is intentionally targeting civilians only!!

Shalom :D

[One?]

Neilson thats how it worked.

Israel targets something in lebanon. Hezbollah retaliates. They would either target IDF soldeirs. Or if lebanese civilians were killed/wounded they would fire rockets into the northern settlements, most famous one "Kiryat Shmona" they loved it for some reason. :roll:

that created some sort of a balance. So israel had to think and study before reacting to an attack.

[IDFM203]

Israel targets something in lebanon. . that “something” was most of the times at hebsatlh attackers and their firing positions


Hezbollah retaliates. . well they perhaps retaliate but it is a retaliation to Israel’s retaliation to their initial attacks. (as you confirm as well in your last statement)


They would either target IDF soldeirs. Or if lebanese civilians were killed/wounded they would fire rockets into the northern settlements, most famous one "Kiryat Shmona" they loved it for some reason. :roll: . ok first no such calculation was made (but hey I don’t expect you to believe otherwise)

But anyways there is still a distinction between the IDF actions and hetbblah action with regards to civilians.

The IDF never intentionally targeted civilians and when in cases civilians died, it was a tragic accident for the IDF was targeting hetsbllah attackers and their direct firing positions but not at civilians.

Hetsballah however targeted Israeli civilian towns and villages (not only kiryat shomano) where there was no IDF firing positions nor any IDF presence there.

Hetsbbalh unlike the IDF has in the past intentionally targeted only civilians.




So israel had to think and study before reacting to an attack. yes like you say now, “reacting to an attack” which was the case in most instances for yes Israel was reacting and responding to hettbaklh attacks, be it on Israeli soldiers or only at Israeli civilians and it further backs up what I wrote in my second response to you here. (With regards to who is initiating and who is responding)


Shalom :D

[One?]

Israel would target hezbollah fighters instantly after the attack. But sometimes in the late 90's they started targeting beirut. I dont see how power plants etc.. had to do anything with hezbollah ;)

[IDFM203]

Israel would target hezbollah fighters instantly after the attack. ok nothing wrong with that.

Israel is responding!!

And this was the case for most of the IDF actions!!



But sometimes in the late 90's they started targeting beirut. I dont see how power plants etc.. had to do anything with hezbollah ;) first of all Beirut and power plants was not often targeted and there was no targeting of civilians.

Again that was a few cases for most of the times Israel went after directly hettblah attackers and their firing positions.


As for power plants, well hetbbalh targets and kills Israeli civilians to send their messege to Israelis while Israel targeted a few times power plants to send a message Lebanese to not support hettballh and their attacks

Big difference in the IDF actions (temporary loss of parts of Lebanese electricity)and hetsballh’s actions (loss of Israeli civilians lives).

Shalom :D

[aktarian]

IDFM203 answer me this.

1. What was reason for Hezbolalh firing misisles into Israel after 1992 (it was response to certain event)?

2. Who broke 1993 (post Accountability) agreement about legitimate targets?

3. Who broke similar 1996 (post Grapes of Wrath) agreement?

4. After this agreements were broken, how exactlly did events follow each other?

[UoUo]

There is black and white...

IDF isn't a terroist group.

Hizbullla are buch of crazy people....****in terrorists.

Simple as that.

[aktarian]

There is black and white...

IDF isn't a terroist group.

Hizbullla are buch of crazy people....f*** terrorists.

Simple as that.

Yes, it's so easy to describe anybody who doesn't like you as terrorist. :roll:

[UkrainianAmerican]

There is black and white...

IDF isn't a terroist group.

Hizbullla are buch of crazy people....f*** terrorists.

Simple as that.

Yes, it's so easy to describe anybody who doesn't like you as terrorist. :roll:
:bash:
Moral relativism is getting a bit too long in the tooth, dont you think?

[S'13]

There is black and white...

IDF isn't a terroist group.

Hizbullla are buch of crazy people....f*** terrorists.

Simple as that.

Yes, it's so easy to describe anybody who doesn't like you as terrorist. :roll:

No, it's simply the correct way to describe someone who targets civilians in order to achieve his goals...

[Javehn]

First of all , to make something clear . I thought it is allready clear to everybody , but apparantly it's not .

1)IDF would never attack , unless it has been attacked before . That i can say without any problem in my heart , without checking the historical books . Just like that , i have not one doubt about that fact , and only after that , when i check in the books , i have no surprice to see that IDF didn't started something , but was purely provocated . I know that for a fact , and that is the reason why i get so pissed of , when it's spoken about IDF soldiers like war criminals (while some of them do problematic things , offcorse , no one is perfect, but those people aren't real soldiers to me ) .

2) In order to plant that minefield,the Hisballah fighters had to perform much more violent incursion to Israeli soil , and intentional , then IDF buldozer performed. However the fighters weren't ingaged , just because they were on other side of sec. fence , something that cost a life of IDF soldier later .

About Hisballah : sence it was made in 1982 , they goal was indeed to liberate Lebanon soil . They name comes from Kuran Suraa - "Those [that only counts with] with God party (God party - Hisb-allah ) , they are the victorios . " The millitary part of Hisballah made it they own interpreitation .

The millitary part of Hisballah goals for this day , 22 years after they establishment are (that is all they justification to exist this day ) - they have been said perfectly by Nasrallah himself , his words on "Manar" TV station at 9 April , 2000 .
His words are :


" All the troubles that exist in the region , are blame of one country alone . The country is Israel . All the time that devios country exists , our boys wouldn't sleep in peace . This country is - cancer . Cancer the country . If we knew that we have cancer in our body , and we would ignore the cancer , it will come back at us , give no rest , and kill us . That devios cancer will be dealt in one way , and only one way . It will violently ripped from our bodies , and we will sacrifice part of that body , a hand , a long , just to get rid of that devios cancer ,and stay allive " .


His speach is comming more and more , and talking about jews as devastating factor throwout history . The fact , that they helping the entire word , while clearing the Jews mennace from the face of the earth . And goes on and on . He also dismeassing the UN 425 resolution (surprise surprise ) , and calling Araphat "the JEW" , because he signed on Taba agreements with Israel in 1995 .

How you consider those words ? Don't pervert the meaning , please .
And also understand middle eastern menthality - that is probably they main point in all of this argue . - Many people see them from they point of view and menthality , while it's tottally different , and soldiers in Iraq discovering it now .

More to come ... I have to run .

[Mr. Nielsen]

1)IDF would never attack , unless it has been attacked before .

I doubt that. But it was probably Hizbollah that initiatated most engaement when they targeted Israeli troops and positions in the "security zone". But the Israeli forces were occupation forces, and there mere presence were a hostile act. The 1991 liberation of Kuwait was also intiated without, the iraqis having attacked coalition forces.

[Mr. Nielsen]

As for power plants, well hetbbalh targets and kills Israeli civilians to send their messege to Israelis while Israel targeted a few times power plants to send a message Lebanese to not support hettballh and their attacks

And had Hizbollah knocked out an Israeli power plant, to convince the Israeli government not to fight Hizbollah? Would the Israeli government not have called that a deliberate terrorist attack against a civilian target?



Big difference in the IDF actions (temporary loss of parts of Lebanese electricity)and hetsballh’s actions (loss of Israeli civilians lives).


If I remember correctly the pretext for the attack was an attack against an Israeli position in the "security zone" killing half a dozen soldiers. At the time, when I saw it in the news, I remember thinking that the Israelis were getting pretty desperate. basicly it seemed like an act of impotence.

[aktarian]

:bash:
Moral relativism is getting a bit too long in the tooth, dont you think?

So are broad generalisations.


No, it's simply the correct way to describe someone who targets civilians in order to achieve his goals...

As in Qana? :roll:




1)IDF would never attack , unless it has been attacked before . That i can say without any problem in my heart , without checking the historical books . Just like that , i have not one doubt about that fact , and only after that , when i check in the books , i have no surprice to see that IDF didn't started something , but was purely provocated . I know that for a fact , and that is the reason why i get so pissed of , when it's spoken about IDF soldiers like war criminals (while some of them do problematic things , offcorse , no one is perfect, but those people aren't real soldiers to me ) .

If you occupy country and soembody attacks you for it in that country that attack isn't unprovoked.



2) In order to plant that minefield,the Hisballah fighters had to perform much more violent incursion to Israeli soil , and intentional , then IDF buldozer performed. However the fighters weren't ingaged , just because they were on other side of sec. fence , something that cost a life of IDF soldier later .

I don't understand your point. Hezbollah's incursion wasn't responded too because they stayed on Lebanese side? BTW, whoce inefield was that anyway? Hezbollah's or Israeli?



About Hisballah : sence it was made in 1982 , they goal was indeed to liberate Lebanon soil . They name comes from Kuran Suraa - "Those [that only counts with] with God party (God party - Hisb-allah ) , they are the victorios . " The millitary part of Hisballah made it they own interpreitation .

Once again, I don't know what you are trying to say. Hezbollah means party of God, as in those who are on the side of God as opposed to Hizb Sheytani, party of satan, those who are on side of satan. Hezbollah never hide the fact that they are religious orientated group. So what?



The millitary part of Hisballah goals for this day , 22 years after they establishment are (that is all they justification to exist this day ) - they have been said perfectly by Nasrallah himself , his words on "Manar" TV station at 9 April , 2000 .
His words are :


" All the troubles that exist in the region , are blame of one country alone . The country is Israel . All the time that devios country exists , our boys wouldn't sleep in peace . This country is - cancer . Cancer the country . If we knew that we have cancer in our body , and we would ignore the cancer , it will come back at us , give no rest , and kill us . That devios cancer will be dealt in one way , and only one way . It will violently ripped from our bodies , and we will sacrifice part of that body , a hand , a long , just to get rid of that devios cancer ,and stay allive " .


His speach is comming more and more , and talking about jews as devastating factor throwout history . The fact , that they helping the entire word , while clearing the Jews mennace from the face of the earth . And goes on and on . He also dismeassing the UN 425 resolution (surprise surprise ) , and calling Araphat "the JEW" , because he signed on Taba agreements with Israel in 1995 .

How you consider those words ? Don't pervert the meaning , please .
And also understand middle eastern menthality - that is probably they main point in all of this argue . - Many people see them from they point of view and menthality , while it's tottally different , and soldiers in Iraq discovering it now .

More to come ... I have to run .

Care to provide entire speach? Besides, I doubt you can find leader of any resistance movement that has kind words for country that occupies their country.

[S'13]

No, it's simply the correct way to describe someone who targets civilians in order to achieve his goals...

As in Qana? :roll:


On April 18, Hizballah fired mortar rounds at an Israeli military unit from a position very near the U.N. compound at Qana, and the IDF responded with artillery fire. A number of Israeli shells struck the compound, killing 102 civilians who had sought shelter there and wounding others. The Government expressed regret for these casualties, but insisted that the U.N. compound had not been shelled intentionally. A U.N. report concluded, however, that it was unlikely that the shelling was due to technical or procedural error.

So much for freedom fighiters...

[IDFM203]

IDFM203 answer me this.

1. What was reason for Hezbolalh firing misisles into Israel after 1992 (it was response to certain event)?

2. Who broke 1993 (post Accountability) agreement about legitimate targets?

3. Who broke similar 1996 (post Grapes of Wrath) agreement?

4. After this agreements were broken, how exactlly did events follow each other? you know before I answer this why don’t you tell me what you think happened and then I will respond.

I mean I don’t appreciate you trying to bait me into something here :roll:

Tell me what you think happened and be specific in each case and then I will respond to what you said.

Now if you are really ignorant about the above events and were sincerely asking me them to gain knowledge about what happened, then respond that that was your sole intention and as such I will answer them like the way you put it.

But now it seems like you have your idea of what happened there in each case and I’d appreciate you telling me up front how you think the events unfolded and then I will respond to it.



“As for power plants, well hetbbalh targets and kills Israeli civilians to send their messege to Israelis while Israel targeted a few times power plants to send a message Lebanese to not support hettballh and their attacks”

And had Hizbollah knocked out an Israeli power plant, to convince the Israeli government not to fight Hizbollah? Would the Israeli government not have called that a deliberate terrorist attack against a civilian target? it would have been called a hostile act committed by a terrorist organization.


It would have been considered a hostile act and if it was out of the blue a unprovoked act committed by a terrorist organization, which they are for they have in the past targeted only civilians and civilian towns (they are purely civilian targets for they were with no IDF presence there nor were there any IDF firing positions from there) which resulted in the loss of lives for said civilians.


Again “As for power plants, well hetbbalh targets and kills Israeli civilians to send their messege to Israelis while Israel targeted a few times power plants to send a message Lebanese to not support hettballh and their attacks

Big difference in the IDF actions (temporary loss of parts of Lebanese electricity)and hetsballh’s actions (loss of Israeli civilians lives).”

Listen, however you want to define Israel’s actions with regards to power plants, there is simply no moral equivalence to Israel responding to attacks by hettblah that have killed Israeli lives by going after power plants (which was very rare and no lives are killed), to hettbalh going after Israeli civilians and soldiers and killing them.

Lives lost vs loss of electricity are not the same thing or the same level of action.




“Big difference in the IDF actions (temporary loss of parts of Lebanese electricity)and hetsballh’s actions (loss of Israeli civilians lives).”

If I remember correctly the pretext for the attack was an attack against an Israeli position in the "security zone" killing half a dozen soldiers. At the time, when I saw it in the news, I remember thinking that the Israelis were getting pretty desperate. basicly it seemed like an act of impotence. No it was just a tactic amongst many other ones in the absence of a true campaign to go on the offensive instead of staying in those stationary positions, which never really happened do to the political will to not do so (which was a wrong position)



No, it's simply the correct way to describe someone who targets civilians in order to achieve his goals...

As in Qana? :roll:


what about Qana?? :roll: Israel there did not intentionally target civilians as hetbblah has done to Israeli civilians by targeting only them from time to time.

As for Qana…


Hezbollah guerrillas fired two Katyusha rockets and eight mortars at Israel from an area 300 yards away from the Fijian compound 15 minutes before Israeli gunners opened fire, U.N. spokeswoman Sylvana Foa said, quoting the commander of the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Lebanon.
The Associated Press, Apr 18, 1996

The U.N. report acknowledges that Hezbollah took cover at the bases of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).
- Cynthia Mann, Jewish Telegraphic Agency, May 10, 1996


"Hezbollah used those civilians as cover in a very cynical and despicable way"
- Nicholas Burns, U.S. State Department spokesman, Telegraphic Agency, May 10, 1996


When Israeli soldiers targeted the launch points of those Katyusha rockets, mistakes were made and the UNIFIL base was unfortunately hit. The fact is that Israel did not intentionally target those civilians.

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Mr Nielsen , didn't we had the same exact arguement allready , with just the same points from your side ?I don't know how about you , but for me it is very despicable that this arguement is commented over the death of a soldier , killed while DEFENDING his land .No soldier from no country deserves that .

And i can swear to you , that just the same argument , about the same issues was discusted here . No surprise for me , if that was Mr. Nielsen .
It's so clearly you are not looking for answers , or at list our side of the story ..

[aktarian]

IDFM203 answer me this.

1. What was reason for Hezbolalh firing misisles into Israel after 1992 (it was response to certain event)?

2. Who broke 1993 (post Accountability) agreement about legitimate targets?

3. Who broke similar 1996 (post Grapes of Wrath) agreement?

4. After this agreements were broken, how exactlly did events follow each other? you know before I answer this why don’t you tell me what you think happened and then I will respond.

I mean I don’t appreciate you trying to bait me into something here :roll:

Tell me what you think happened and be specific in each case and then I will respond to what you said.


I thought you will be willing to provide official Israeli line, but nevermind.

1. Assasiantion of Hezbollah SecGen Mussawi in Bekaa valley. Prior to that both sides more or less limited their actions to Security Zone. after that Hezbollah considered gloves off.

2. Israel.

3. Israel.

4. After Accountability was concluded agreement was reached between IDF and Hezbollah under which Hezbollah is to refrain from attacks on Israel and IDF to refrain from attacking targets outside Security Zone. On 19.8.93 Hezbollah attacked IDF patrol inside SZ, IDF responded by attacking Hezbollah targets in Bekaa, outside SZ. after that both sides were sporadically attacking targets outside perimeters set by agreement. after GoW were concluded simialr agreement was reached, this time written. Hezbollah is prohibited from attacking targets in Israel, IDF and SLA were prohibited from attacking civilian targets in Lebanon, civilinas are not to be target and civilian, industrial and electrical instalations are not to be used as launching grounds for attack, both sides are free to operate in SZ in "self defence". On 12.5.96 in two attacks 5 IDF soldiers were wounded, IDF responded with attacks on targets outside SZ.

Basically Hezbollah attacked targets inside SZ and ISrael responded with attacks outside of it. So Hezbollah considered agreements broken and not bound by them.

If there is Israeli explanation I'd like to hear it.


Regarding Qana


Survey of impact area
10. The technical survey of the impacts of the Israeli shells yielded the following information:

(a) Thirty six impacts were found in the Qana area. Shell fragments of 155 millimetre caliber were found throughout the United Nations compound. The distribution of the impacts was uneven; there were two distinct areas where the impacts were concentrated and two "stray" impacts.


(b) The first concentration of impacts was centered about 100 meters to the south of the United Nations compound, on a group of houses some 75 meters northwest of the mortar firing point. In all, 17 shells (16 with impact fuses, 1 with proximity fuse) landed south of the United Nations compound.
(c) The second concentration of impacts was centered on the middle of the United Nations compound. Given the number and state of the casualties and the destruction caused by the shelling, a major cleanup operation had to be launched immediately after the end of the shelling. This resulted in the loss of important evidence. However, there was substantial evidence of multiple proximity fused artillery ammunition detonating directly above the compound, covering a large portion of its area. While the exact number cannot be determined, the available evidence suggests that eight such projectiles detonated over the compound and one just outside it. There was also evidence that five high explosive point detonating projectiles detonated in the compound and three close to it. In sum, evidence was found of 13 detonations inside or directly above the compound and 4 very close to it.

(d) Almost all the proximity fuses were used in the area of the United Nations compound.

(e) Despite an extensive aerial and ground search, no impacts were found at the second target area identified by the Israeli forces (350 meters south south east of the United Nations compound), although evidence was found that rockets had been launched from a site nearby.

11. Several witnesses reported that during the shelling there had been a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from an area southwest of the compound (the mortar site) to the compound itself.

12. Several witnesses stated that they saw an RPV over the Qana area before, during and after the shelling. Two helicopters were seen 2 kilometers southeast of the United Nations compound during the shelling and one was observed close to the compound after the shelling had finished. The presence of one helicopter and an RPV was documented on a video tape, which covers the latter part of the shelling. It was taken by a member of the Force Mobile Reserve from a position overlooking the United Nations compound at Qana from a distance of about 1.5 kilometers. The RPV on the tape was of a type with a real time data link capability.

Findings
13. The following are my findings:

(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 meters apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.


(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.


http://home.no.net/norplt/unreport.html

Basically IDF used Hezbollah attack as excuse to shell camp. And since IDF were found to be lying on two accounts (no planes/helos in area, random distribution of fuses) I have troubles believing other claims as well.

[IDFM203]

I thought you will be willing to provide official Israeli line, but nevermind. . yes and you parrot the Arab official line almost verbatim as much or more as you accuse me of doing with the Israeli line.

Cut out your pompous condescension already, its quite childish :roll:


Assasiantion of Hezbollah SecGen Mussawi in Bekaa valley. Prior to that both sides more or less limited their actions to Security Zone. after that Hezbollah considered gloves off. . gees I didn’t realize that the bombings in Argentina (1992 and 1994) that were purposely targeted and killed hundreds of innocent civilians were inside the SZ :roll:


Their gloves were off way before Israel did anything!!

Secondly what you said is not true for before then they are attacking outside of it into Israeli towns.

Listen the fact is that Israel went after a hetbllh member that was a very active in the attacks that kills Israelis and it is justified in going after that person no matter where he is.

Hettballh in alot of cases did not go after the IDF but went after Israeli civilians in Israeli towns or in Argentina.


2. Israel.

3. Israel. . haha yeah how did I know you would say it like that :roll:

Yeah how did Israel break them?? Be specific. I mean how did they break them by targeting non-legitimate targets.

No Israel in both of those cases responded to hetbblah bombardments of Israeli towns and villages or at Israelis in the SZ.




Basically Hezbollah attacked targets inside SZ and ISrael responded with attacks outside of it. So Hezbollah considered agreements broken and not bound by them.

If there is Israeli explanation I'd like to hear it. . yeah your supposed “sincerity” in really wanting to hear an Israeli view of it is as genuine as arafats “sincerity” to live in peace with Israel. For it’s obvious that you never bother to listen to any Israeli explanation. Except when you can frame it in your condesanding and sarcastic way.

Yes hetbblah broke those agreements by attacking Israeli towns and villages inside of Israel that were outside of that SZ and Israel responded in kind.

Hettballh attacked and targeted and killed Israeli civilians outside of the SZ while Israel responded by targeting electricity grids, which have killed no one.

Listen hetballh wasn’t agreeing to any agreements to just self defense for they were always on the offensive to get the IDF out.
That was their whole goal and the only way they could achieve it was to constantly go on the offensive.

(Just btw I can understand that, if they had always limited their targeting to just the IDF that would be one thing but they did not and have constantly over the years purposely targeted civilian only targets (be it on Israeli towns that had no IDF firing positions coming from it to attacks in Argentina).)



Regarding kana


………………….


http://home.no.net/norplt/unreport.html listen a few things in response

The shelling came amid Operation Grapes of Wrath, Israel's military campaign to stop Hezbollah from firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel.

Israeli officials were responding to fire from Hezbollah fighters a few hundred yards from the base and hit the U.N. camp after a series of technical miscalculations.

The U.N. report does not address whether Israel knew that there were civilians at the base, which Israeli officials deny. The Israelis say the U.N. peacekeeping force would not fulfill their requests for information about where civilians were located during Israel's operation in Lebanon

The U.N. report acknowledges that Hezbollah took cover at the bases of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).

I say again “Israel there did not intentionally target civilians as hetbblah has done to Israeli civilians by targeting only them from time to time.

They didn’t target civilians for they targeted hetbblah that they thought were there or that were firing from there
Hezbollah guerrillas fired two Katyusha rockets and eight mortars at Israel from an area 300 yards away from the Fijian compound 15 minutes before Israeli gunners opened fire, U.N. spokeswoman Sylvana Foa said, quoting the commander of the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Lebanon.
The Associated Press, Apr 18, 1996

The U.N. report acknowledges that Hezbollah took cover at the bases of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).
- Cynthia Mann, Jewish Telegraphic Agency, May 10, 1996


"Hezbollah used those civilians as cover in a very cynical and despicable way"
- Nicholas Burns, U.S. State Department spokesman, Telegraphic Agency, May 10, 1996


When Israeli soldiers targeted the launch points of those Katyusha rockets, mistakes were made and the UNIFIL base was unfortunately hit. The fact is that Israel did not intentionally target those civilians.



Basically IDF used Hezbollah attack as excuse to shell camp. . yes so for 20 years Israel for the most part Israel did not target civilians in the SZ but yet now in 1996 it chose to do so………come on….if the IDF was into killing civilians for the heck of it it could simply kill everyone there.

No the fact is that Israel did not target civilians nor has it for the most part ever done that.



And since IDF were found to be lying on two accounts (no planes/helos in area, random distribution of fuses) I have troubles believing other claims as well. first as to lying it was wrong and heads rolled over that…hell Peres wasn’t elected partly due to all of this.

oh and the arabs never lie :roll:

listen if someone in israel lied here then its wrong but its not often nor does it come close to the amount of lying that emenates from the arabs with regards to this conflict.




Listen, most of The Israeli people deplored what happened, something that you never get the Arabs doing when they kill Israeli civilians.

I mean soon after the Israeli people voted Peres out of office.






I think you like to always get boggled down in your own trees and you miss the forest in general.

In the big sense let me ask you why do you think the IDF stayed in Lebanon after they kicked the PLO out??

Also I am just curious, you say that Israel deliberately targeted civilians in Qana I am curious to hear why you think they did that especially in light of the fact that Qana type of cases was a very rare instance.


Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Waw , damnit . He is back in bussiness !!

Let me add some things in shortly . The Qana incident was a mistake done by Arty battery , very bad one offcorse , but could be done by every single Army in the world . The fact is , that IDF totally allowed UNIFIL inspectors to check , what happened there . Offorse , someone did try to cover his ass , but in big , Israel was more then cooperative on that matter .

Second , you offcorse forgetting what Hisballah did there . Not only they fired from the compound and near it , they also shoot couple of Soldiers from UN battalion that was stationed there , when they tryed to do they job - to prevent them from firing Arty . Somehow you forgot to mention this . No problem , i bet it's honnest mistake .. (It is probably the reason , why UN forces try not to mind Hisballah bussiness , even when it is comming to abducting soldiers ...)

Offcorse , it was very bad mistake indeed , huge mistake , i bet the soldiers that participated in that Arty battery would never forget it until the rest of they lifes . But no one can call it slaughter , or to say that IDF intentually fired inside the compound .

[Mr. Nielsen]

The shelling came amid Operation Grapes of Wrath, Israel's military campaign to stop Hezbollah from firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel.

Or perhaps Perez wanted to look tough ahead of elections.



yes so for 20 years Israel for the most part Israel did not target civilians in the SZ but yet now in 1996 it chose to do so………come on….if the IDF was into killing civilians for the heck of it it could simply kill everyone there.

Since entered Lebanon in 1982, Israel have, deliberate targeting or not, caused massive civilian casualties.

[One?]

this **** isnt over yet?

holy its getting boring, how about we jack a different thread for a change :D

[OldRecon]

Had a look at those vids of the bulldozer attack on *******.
It's filmed from 2 angles.
One from the left side and somewhat to the rear of the bulldozer and another from the front (showing the missile arching towards it targets).
Now is Hezbollah supplier of both of these takes on the wideo, or are the side view from an Israeli source and the front view from Hezbollah?
As both cuts focus pretty much on the Bulldozer it's pretty difficult to get an orientation of the actuall geographic location of the vehicle vs. its surroundings.
Looks like the Israeli reaction to the roadside bomb they placed near the fence were pretty expected though on the part of Hezbollah (how the f*** could they get that close to the fence in the first place?).
And the Israeli response to this border incident I guess was pretty expected too (the usual bombing of a "Hezbolla camp" up in Bekaa I guess).
Unfortunately that won't get you too much respect with the Hezbollah I'm afraid. Though you may save a soldier or 2 by sitting in a big Merkava firing from a distance, or dropping bombs on a camp from high up in the sky. After all the Hezbollah seems to have something of a fetish with close combat and operations with a high moment of risk.
Besides this air force response with bombs tend to bring bad publicity in many countries outside the region (over the years I've seen more than one reportage showing hits on civilan targets besides the intended one from such "reprisal raids").
Then there is the massive response option that IDF resorts to now and then, like 1978, '82 and "Grapes of wrath" which generaly only makes the "baddies" move off for a while. Until the IDF pulls out and they filter back again.
Then lastly theres the attempts at coup the main actions against the leadership of the warious groups IDF is grapling with. Which generaly only results a new head replacing the dead one.
What about changing strategy on the northern border a bit from the usual air force reprisal raids or occasional massive response operations with tanks and all, to the gags played on you by the Hezbollah, with low profile claret type missions with small units of light infantry under strict rules of engagement. With main emphasis on reconnaisance and abduction of small numbers of the guys on the ground from the opposition, rather than creating big headlines (and thus bad publicity) with taking out some gorilla leader in Damascus.
Somewhat like taking on Hezbollah at their own game, rather than trying to do it the usual way by operating under an umbrella of superior firepower. If the Israelis can do that and beat the fighters at their own game in a way that don't create big headlines it could save you from a lot of trouble.
One problem though is that whatever offensive action you take, there must not be left behind any enemy bodies that the opposition can use for rallying political support among their crowd.
Now imaging fighters in one's or two's simply vanishing from isolated outposts without trace now and then. One moment here, next there. And doing so over an extended period. Maybe an odd roadside bomb in between against cars belonging to a fighter (irrespective of the rank of that fighter) in a mimick of the Hezbollah way of fighting. Generaly creating small scale nuisance on a large scale. Then you would definitely begin to talk bussines with Hezbollah and the like.
My feel in short is that the Israelis are becoming somewhat too predictable in the way it responds to threaths (and off course you guys disaggree with me here but well,... you live there and I thankfully don't).

[Javehn]

I am see what you saying , and i am for person ready to open some can of whopass , but the international opinion is making a final point in the book . IDF have no problems to have some serious responce , but unfortunatly while organizations like Hisballah aren't tied up , IDF is tied up by international opinion . So , as much as it hearts for us , that is the situation on the field . That is very sad , that soldiers have to die , because of it , but again , the international pressure is what makes it look like that. So indeed , IDF is making the regular wind blows , instead of solving the situation in military way ( also the opinion from inside the Israel matters ) .

[IDFM203]

My feel in short is that the Israelis are becoming somewhat too predictable in the way it responds to threaths (and off course you guys disaggree with me here but well,...). I agree with you here somewhat (I can see the shock on you face from over there ;) )

What you have to understand is that now it’s more of a political war and “game” than a real war right now.

hetbblah is playing their game and the IDF is forced to only act in response.

You see Israel is trying hard to not give them any excuses after the FULL pullout in which it thought that it would bring peace (I never thought that but the foolish labor Barak government did) and as such even though hetbblah seems to fire off every now and then, as of now its not on a level where the IDF and the political echelon (which is now the bigger factor) will need to rethink things.

Though my personal opinion is that they should rethink it, but I guess thank god for them (hetballah) I am not running things for in that case this BS “game” wouldn’t be playing out this long.

Hetbblah is doing just enough to make some trouble but not enough to cause the IDF to act offensively or to even go back in….yet ;)

Time will tell if that holds true or some escalation happens…..

Shalom :D

[citizen-k]

IDFM203 answer me this.

1. What was reason for Hezbolalh firing misisles into Israel after 1992 (it was response to certain event)?

2. Who broke 1993 (post Accountability) agreement about legitimate targets?

3. Who broke similar 1996 (post Grapes of Wrath) agreement?

4. After this agreements were broken, how exactlly did events follow each other?

1. Israeli Missile blowing up Hizbullah leader Abas Musawi (I guess until that day Hizbullah was a branch of the red cross rofl )
2. Hizbullah
3. Hizbullah again (shelling a place called "ziporen", sometimes hitting an army post and sometimes "missing" and hitting an Israeli city)
4. April 96, Shimon Peres had to launch operation "grapes of rage" after 6 month of unstopable shellings on Israel's northern cities. He didn't want that to happen because of the elections. the event of kafar-kana (which was disscussed in this forum before) caused him to lose the elections.
(Hizbullas shellings actually ended the peace proccess when you caom to think of it...)

Being to smart as you are, please explain to me, why after 3 years I have not seen a single Lebanonian soldior near the border? are they afraid of something? what about police? I mean...it's a part of Lebanon, is not it?

[One?]

Being to smart as you are, please explain to me, why after 3 years I have not seen a single Lebanonian soldior near the border? are they afraid of something? what about police? I mean...it's a part of Lebanon, is not it?

and who exactly told you there are no lebanese soldiers or police in the south?

[Mr. Nielsen]

What about changing strategy on the northern border a bit from the usual air force reprisal raids or occasional massive response operations with tanks and all, to the gags played on you by the Hezbollah...

I believe Israel has done quite a lot, of what you suggest, in the past. And, as the ambush in Ansaria shows, it's not without risk. In the past it wasn't any miracle antidote against Hizbollah and its much safer to use artillery or planes. Besides the border between Israel and Lebanon have been relatively quite since 2000.

[One?]

What about changing strategy on the northern border a bit from the usual air force reprisal raids or occasional massive response operations with tanks and all, to the gags played on you by the Hezbollah...

I believe Israel has done quite a lot, of what you suggest, in the past. And, as the ambush in Ansaria shows, it's not without risk. In the past it wasn't any miracle antidote against Hizbollah and its much safer to use artillery or planes. Besides the border between Israel and Lebanon have been relatively quite since 2000.

During the past Tanks never crossed the buffer zone. They fire rounds outside the buffer zone, and planes would bomb targets outside the reach of artillary, tanks and mortars.

[OldRecon]

I am see what you saying , and i am for person ready to open some can of whopass...

That's exactly what I was not thinking off. Do you really wanna' do "a Milosevic" :|?
Claret is a concept of contained reponse (though not as contained as generaly sitting behind the fence), rather more aimed at nagging than whoppassing.
Like in that bulldozer incident hezbollah was nagging you rather than whopassing you.
And claret is like making many small holes in the fishtank, rather than going for the big fish.
As an example during an occasion of previous use of Claret, a patrol deliberately avoided the temptation to ambush a "quite big fish", so as not to create a fuss that could threaten to escalate things.


What you have to understand is that now it’s more of a political war and “game” than a real war right now

Claret don't work in a "real war" environment, but have been used at least once with success to prevent a "political war" and “game” from escalating into a "real war".


I believe Israel has done quite a lot, of what you suggest, in the past. And, as the ambush in Ansaria shows, it's not without risk. In the past it wasn't any miracle antidote against Hizbollah and its much safer to use artillery or planes. Besides the border between Israel and Lebanon have been relatively quite since 2000.

But hunking down in fortified positions, showing yourselves as little as possible wasn't a miracle antidote either. And off course small scale operations is not without risks.
But if the South africans could train 900 men for their special forces regiments, with a casualty rate of 200 among them over a 30 year period, I guess Israel could do the same also. Besides it shouldn't be that hard to recruit one or 2 battalions of people able to carry 100 pounds over long distance on foot, with good tracking/anti-tracking skills (Lebanese soil is quite good for tracking if you know what to look for - so high emphasis on that), and with the necessary stamina to do this type of work over a period of many years.
On the other hand don't attempt to do to much either. The aim is not to create "perfect ambushes" at every corner. Claret is slow attritional warfare. Though perfect ambushes were part of the original concept of Claret, in your operational context I believe it would be better to take out 1-2 at a time rather than a whole squad or platoon. In original claret leaving behind own dead as proof to the enemy was no no. In your context leaving behind bodies of enemy dead to be recovered will also be no no, as in your context of operations burials of such bodies tend to become rallies for political support. Under the concept of Claret a few is better than both none and many.
The aims of Claret is not to create headlines or a stirr, rather its aim is to create a slowly creeping unease.
As for use of heavy firepower (i.e. planes, tanks and guns as in that old republican chant "whith armoured cars and tanks and guns, they came to take away our sons, but every man will stand behind the men behind the wire"), you will have to get accustomed to the idea of using such measures sparsely. In original Claret permission for air support from planes were given only once. The planes employed on that occasion furthermore lacked air to ground weapons, yet managed to help the troops on the ground with a bit of innovative use of afterburners.

[OldRecon]

As for you Israelis I'm personaly not all that much against having Hezbollah on your north border.

1. For an irregular militant grouping they appear to be quite disciplined, though those guys can be quite ruthless too.

2. As long as the Hezbollah is in charge of the north side of the border, they will not let the Palestians into South Lebanon again. Something that would have created a lot of more tension in the region than what's the case now. Despite the occasional Bulldozer hunt.

3. With the Syrians en masse directly on the border, tension would have been even higher.

Again wouldn't be surprised if you take a different view. Yet that's how I see it. Quite unimpashionaly (which also goes to explain why I prefer using :(, :| or rofl as a counter to my rather dour and not too exitable personality in real life).

If my memory serves me correct, wasn't there a rumour flying about around the late 80's / early 90's about Hezbollah being trained by some kind of advisors with links to the South African SF. Any substance in that?

[aktarian]

gees I didn’t realize that the bombings in Argentina (1992 and 1994) that were purposely targeted and killed hundreds of innocent civilians were inside the SZ :roll:

Yes, after Musawi gotr killed gloves were off.



Their gloves were off way before Israel did anything!!

Secondly what you said is not true for before then they are attacking outside of it into Israeli towns.

Listen the fact is that Israel went after a hetbllh member that was a very active in the attacks that kills Israelis and it is justified in going after that person no matter where he is.

Hettballh in alot of cases did not go after the IDF but went after Israeli civilians in Israeli towns or in Argentina.


Prior to 1992 Hezbollah didn't shell Israel and limited their actions to sZ, soemthing Israel did as well. after on side changes the rules, why should other one bide by old ones?



haha yeah how did I know you would say it like that :roll:

Yeah how did Israel break them?? Be specific. I mean how did they break them by targeting non-legitimate targets.

No Israel in both of those cases responded to hetbblah bombardments of Israeli towns and villages or at Israelis in the SZ.



I gave you examples how treaties were broken. Perhaps you should read my posts.



yeah your supposed “sincerity” in really wanting to hear an Israeli view of it is as genuine as arafats “sincerity” to live in peace with Israel. For it’s obvious that you never bother to listen to any Israeli explanation. Except when you can frame it in your condesanding and sarcastic way.

Yes hetbblah broke those agreements by attacking Israeli towns and villages inside of Israel that were outside of that SZ and Israel responded in kind.

Hettballh attacked and targeted and killed Israeli civilians outside of the SZ while Israel responded by targeting electricity grids, which have killed no one.

No, after agreements Hezbollah attacked IDf inside SZ. ISrael responded by attacking targets outside it, Hezbollah reponded with shelling of Israel.



Listen hetballh wasn’t agreeing to any agreements to just self defense for they were always on the offensive to get the IDF out.
That was their whole goal and the only way they could achieve it was to constantly go on the offensive.

Yes. However they wanted to limit damage to Lebanon.



(Just btw I can understand that, if they had always limited their targeting to just the IDF that would be one thing but they did not and have constantly over the years purposely targeted civilian only targets (be it on Israeli towns that had no IDF firing positions coming from it to attacks in Argentina).)

Unlike Israel, who never did that. :roll:


The shelling came amid Operation Grapes of Wrath, Israel's military campaign to stop Hezbollah from firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel.

Israeli officials were responding to fire from Hezbollah fighters a few hundred yards from the base and hit the U.N. camp after a series of technical miscalculations.

The U.N. report does not address whether Israel knew that there were civilians at the base, which Israeli officials deny. The Israelis say the U.N. peacekeeping force would not fulfill their requests for information about where civilians were located during Israel's operation in Lebanon

The U.N. report acknowledges that Hezbollah took cover at the bases of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).

I say again “Israel there did not intentionally target civilians as hetbblah has done to Israeli civilians by targeting only them from time to time.

They didn’t target civilians for they targeted hetbblah that they thought were there or that were firing from there
Hezbollah guerrillas fired two Katyusha rockets and eight mortars at Israel from an area 300 yards away from the Fijian compound 15 minutes before Israeli gunners opened fire, U.N. spokeswoman Sylvana Foa said, quoting the commander of the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Lebanon.
The Associated Press, Apr 18, 1996

The U.N. report acknowledges that Hezbollah took cover at the bases of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).
- Cynthia Mann, Jewish Telegraphic Agency, May 10, 1996


"Hezbollah used those civilians as cover in a very cynical and despicable way"
- Nicholas Burns, U.S. State Department spokesman, Telegraphic Agency, May 10, 1996


When Israeli soldiers targeted the launch points of those Katyusha rockets, mistakes were made and the UNIFIL base was unfortunately hit. The fact is that Israel did not intentionally target those civilians.



17 rounds overshoot the target and land close together and all but one have proximity fuses despite Israeli claims fuses were chosen at random. Too many coincidences to be belivable.



yes so for 20 years Israel for the most part Israel did not target civilians in the SZ but yet now in 1996 it chose to do so………come on….if the IDF was into killing civilians for the heck of it it could simply kill everyone there.

So who destroyed those buildings and who designed GoW in such way to trigger massive refugee flow toward Beirut?



first as to lying it was wrong and heads rolled over that…hell Peres wasn’t elected partly due to all of this.

oh and the arabs never lie :roll:

They do. But Israel claims moral high ground.