PDA

View Full Version : US-Israeli pact may hurt Turkish defense procurement



Clearday-TRForce
08-23-2005, 07:29 AM
US-Israeli pact may hurt Turkish defense procurement
Tuesday, August 23, 2005



Israel's move to agree to consult with the United States before attempting to sell weapons technology to other nations may complicate Turkish-Israeli deals, analysts say.

WASHINGTON/ANKARA – Exclusive by TDN Defense Desk


A recent defense accord under which Israel pledges to consult with the United States in advance on arms exports to third countries may diminish the Jewish state's role as an attractive defense equipment supplier for Turkey and complicate future deals, analysts say.

The document, signed Aug. 16 by U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in Washington and Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz in Israel, aims to remove spats between the two close allies over Israel's arms sales -- mainly to China, which is seen as the United States' future strategic rival. Under the deal, Israel has agreed to inform the United States of all its future arms export plans and to “take Washington's position into account.”

Turkish officials so far have declined to comment on the U.S.-Israeli pact, but some analysts pointed to a number of drawbacks for future Turkish deals with Israeli companies.

“Although the agreement's apparent target is China, it's not very good news for Turkish procurement from Israel, either,” said one defense analyst. “Since the mid-1990s, when the two countries began to develop their strategic partnership, Turkey has seen Israel as a good alternative to Western suppliers in terms of defense equipment acquisition. The Turks thought that if you negotiate a deal well and pay the price, you could buy almost anything from Israel, unlike the case with the United States.”

In the past 10 years, Ankara has encountered difficulties with Washington over export licenses and technology transfers on several defense deals, and at times the United States has refused to sell some critical equipment.

“With the business-minded Israelis, the Turks knew that they would confront no such problems, politics was not a matter of dispute. And Turkey believed that it could buy from Israel a number of items that it wouldn't be able to acquire from the United States,” the analyst said. “But now with the signing of the U.S.-Israeli accord, any major Turkish defense deal with Israel must win Washington's direct, or at least indirect, approval. Also, the secrecy is gone.”

One example is Israel's radar-finding Harpy drones, any equivalent of which the United States would be unwilling to deliver to Turkey.

Turkey and Israel so far have been involved in arms sales and modernization programs worth billions of dollars, including Israeli upgrade of Turkish F-4 and F-5 fighters and M1A1 main battle tanks, purchase of Popeye air-to-surface precision missiles and joint production of unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) systems.

“Another problem concerns competition between U.S. and Israeli companies in Turkish defense programs. In the past, for example, when U.S. firms lost Turkish deals to their Israeli counterparts, they complained about unfair competition,” the analyst said. “After the signing of the U.S.-Israeli document, it's not clear what will happen in cases where U.S. and Israeli interests are in conflict.”

One recent example is Turkey's April decision to buy three UAV systems worth $183 million from an Israeli group of Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) and Elbit Systems, which was competing against the United States' General Atomics. Possible follow-up agreements may raise the contract's value considerably.

The Turkish move angered General Atomics, which said it had found it impossible to comply with the “extremely unrealistic terms and conditions demanded by the Turkish government as a condition for accepting a contract to provide (General Atomics') Predator aircraft to meet the requirements.”

The Turkish contract had called for the payload to be made by a local firm. General Atomics refused to accept technical and financial responsibilities for a critical part a local company would develop, but the Israeli team agreed to the condition.

Also, when Turkey three years ago offered a $670 million contract to Israel Military Industries (IMI) to upgrade 170 Turkish M1A1 tanks, the U.S. government and General Dynamics -- the Israeli company's U.S. rival -- were furious because the platforms had been manufactured by General Dynamics and donated by Washington to Ankara in the early 1990s.

“The U.S.-Israeli agreement may diminish the significance of Israeli deals for Turkey, but the problem is that Turkey doesn't have another option to replace Israel's role,” the defense analyst said.

The U.S.-Israeli pact came after the Pentagon complained about several potential Israeli sales to China, including an Israeli plan to service spare parts for unmanned Harpy aircraft. The Pentagon regards the Chinese military as a potential long-term adversary and opposes Western countries providing China with military upgrades. The Harpy deal eventually failed.

In retaliation, the U.S. Defense Department restricted Israel's access to the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) program, which aims to create a new multirole jet fighter designed to replace the F-16 for the United States, Israel, Turkey and several European fighter inventories. Turkey is a member of the U.S.-led program's system development and demonstration phase and plans to buy the next generation fighter. Under the new agreement Israel also agreed to exercise greater control over arms exports by restructuring its internal processes for approving them. Several ministries will now work with the Israeli Defense Ministry before those exports are approved, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

Whitman said the agreement would begin to restore U.S. confidence in Israel's ability to protect sensitive technologies; however, Israel will not immediately be reinstated to the F-35 program.

In a statement the Pentagon and Israeli Defense Ministry said the agreement was “designed to remedy problems of the past that seriously affected the technology security relationship between our defense establishments and which begins to restore confidence in the technology security area.”

Whitman said the United States would not have veto power over any possible arms sales, but U.S. officials would be informed and have a chance to express their opinion. But analysts said that despite the Pentagon spokesman's remarks, the consultation mechanism apparently would give major leverage for Washington.

The understanding “ends the dispute” and “fully restores the confidence of the United States,” Israeli Ambassador to the United States Daniel Ayalon said. He said the understanding did not encompass details of any proposed deal. “It deals with principles,” Ayalon said. “And the major principle is mutual consultation.”

News reports said Israeli officials fear the agreement is likely to have a negative impact on the country's defense industry because of additional red tape, new problems with third countries in the negotiation process and the loss of secrecy.

Last year Israeli companies exported $3.5 billion in weapons. The largest exporters are Israeli Aircraft Industries, Rafael Armament Development Authority, Israel Military Industries and Elbit Systems. China, Turkey and India are among the Israeli defense industry's largest customers.

U.S. concern over sales to China has been longstanding. In 2000, even in the absence of the latest consultation pact, the Pentagon effectively vetoed a multi-billion-dollar sale by Israel of Phalcon airborne reconnaissance systems to China.



It will be interesting to see further movements among USA-Israel-Turkey affairs, we have still some important projects with Israel like CUTLASS/HAROP/SABRA/LOROPS/HERON/Terminator-II/Lora... :)



regards.

UoUo
08-23-2005, 07:39 AM
What's the problem with Israel selling weapons to Turkey.
Turkey and USA are allies as well.

Clearday-TRForce
08-23-2005, 07:46 AM
What's the problem with Israel selling weapons to Turkey.
Turkey and USA are allies as well.


mate, have u read the article? dont you find it trouble for weapon sales from Israel to Turkey? We have done these projects without any permission among us. So there are some permissions. It will be hard to buy something. And it must be trouble for Israel Military industries?

Kontra1
08-23-2005, 09:50 AM
What's the problem with Israel selling weapons to Turkey.
Turkey and USA are allies as well.


mate, have u read the article? dont you find it trouble for weapon sales from Israel to Turkey? We have done these projects without any permission among us. So there are some permissions. It will be hard to buy something. And it must be trouble for Israel Military industries?

As some of our military personel implemented before;Turkey should priority of developing its own arms industry first and asa it feels beeing treated like on the same level as China and not as a NATO member,it should seriously re-consider the Shangai 5's invitation.

I'm sure Russia and China would love to take the place of 20 some US bases in Turkey.

Kontra1

Moledet
08-23-2005, 11:22 AM
The USA has an habbit of signing agreements and few months later forgetting about them, so if we'd wait a few months there will be no problem to make any deals with most of the countries.

ExtraT
08-23-2005, 01:34 PM
As I recall, US's problem with Israel-China arms deals were exculsively over technologies originally supplied to Israel by the US. That's what killed the PHALCON deal.

This pact is probably about that. That's the only place where the US has any right to make faces - it certainly has no right to meddle in sales of fomestically developed technologies.

DeepSpace
08-24-2005, 12:07 AM
The US is hypocritic as hell.
It's ok for them to sell weapons (F-16's, AH-64D's, F-15s etc. etc.) to Oman, Bahrain, Saudi-Arabia and the UAE (which all are considered enemy to Israel), but Israel can't sell Popeye missiles and UAV's to Turkey, which is an ally of the USA as well?

Only a stupid person will think that the USA is afraiding only of technology transfers to third-party nations... The real reason they want to know about every sell is that they won't lose a buyer, and could pressure the buying nation to buy their product and not the Israeli one, or block the Israeli sale and sell then themselves.

And don't tell me it's because Israel sells an American technology, because the Popeye and the Heron are pure Israeli technology, while some of the technology the US sells is originated in Israel...

As I said, the US is hypocritic as hell.
:bash: :fork: :-*$ :backhand:

Clearday-TRForce
08-24-2005, 01:23 AM
could pressure the buying nation to buy their product and not the Israeli one, or block the Israeli sale and sell then themselves


exactly...so I wonder how all affairs will be shaped among USA-Turkey-Israel...could it be a flexibility in selling options_? I think it will be, coz if Turkey or some other countries cannot buy weapons from USA, they will change their selles to the other countries like Russia-some European countries-maybe China, but it will affect Israel military industry, they push us to buy American goods inspite of Israel ones...




regards

ExtraT
08-24-2005, 01:04 PM
Only a stupid person will think that the USA is afraiding only of technology transfers to third-party nations...
And don't tell me it's because Israel sells an American technology, because the Popeye and the Heron are pure Israeli technology, while some of the technology the US sells is originated in Israel...


Man, can't you read? The article sais, this pact has come about because of ISRAEL-CHINA arms deals. NOWHERE do they talk about ISRAEL-TURKEY deals as a cause of this pact. What they do say, is that this pact can have a negative effect on Israel-Turkey deals, becsue of the additional red tape.

Some people in the USA regard (and rightfully so) China as the new big threat. Of course, they will try and limit China's procurements of new weapons technologies! Is it hypocritical? Possibly. Is it wrong? No, they certainly have the right to excercise a foreign policy that protects THEIR interests!

Yes, it's sad that Israel has to look up to the US all the time (I say that as an Israeli), but that's the way it is. Israel is a very small nation, with very few allies, and it has no other choice but to put up with some of it's greatest ally's excentricities. Some say Israel could easily cough on these excentricities, and I'm one of these people, by the way. But I'm certainly not the right person to make these decisions, am I?

Questions? Claims? Complaints?..

DeepSpace
08-24-2005, 01:35 PM
Only a stupid person will think that the USA is afraiding only of technology transfers to third-party nations...
And don't tell me it's because Israel sells an American technology, because the Popeye and the Heron are pure Israeli technology, while some of the technology the US sells is originated in Israel...


Man, can't you read? The article sais, this pact has come about because of ISRAEL-CHINA arms deals. NOWHERE do they talk about ISRAEL-TURKEY deals as a cause of this pact. What they do say, is that this pact can have a negative effect on Israel-Turkey deals, becsue of the additional red tape.

Some people in the USA regard (and rightfully so) China as the new big threat. Of course, they will try and limit China's procurements of new weapons technologies! Is it hypocritical? Possibly. Is it wrong? No, they certainly have the right to excercise a foreign policy that protects THEIR interests!

Yes, it's sad that Israel has to look up to the US all the time (I say that as an Israeli), but that's the way it is. Israel is a very small nation, with very few allies, and it has no other choice but to put up with some of it's greatest ally's excentricities. Some say Israel could easily cough on these excentricities, and I'm one of these people, by the way. But I'm certainly not the right person to make these decisions, am I?

Questions? Claims? Complaints?..

True, but the US doesn't care about Israel when they sell fighters, helicopters and missiles to countries like Bahrain, Saudi-Arabia and the UAE, which pose a threat to Israel (maybe even more than the threat that China poses on the USA). And I don't see any reasons it would affect Israeli-Turkish deals, as the USA sold them F-16s, F-4s, except again, a strong American willing to block the Israeli deal and make their own deal.

Clearday-TRForce
08-24-2005, 01:59 PM
USA sold them F-16s, F-4s, except again, a strong American willing to block the Israeli deal and make their own deal.


x2 too...


look at our current projects with Israel;

-SABRA (m60a3 upgrade), LOROPS

-Israeli upgrade of Turkish F-4 and F-5 fighters and M1A1 main battle tanks, purchase of Popeye air-to-surface precision missiles and joint production of unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) systems

-One recent example is Turkey's April decision to buy three UAV systems worth $183 million from an Israeli group of Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) and Elbit Systems, which was competing against the United States' General Atomics. Possible follow-up agreements may raise the contract's value considerably.
The Turkish move angered General Atomics, which said it had found it impossible to comply with the “extremely unrealistic terms and conditions demanded by the Turkish government as a condition for accepting a contract to provide (General Atomics') Predator aircraft to meet the requirements

-when Turkey three years ago offered a $670 million contract to Israel Military Industries (IMI) to upgrade 170 Turkish M1A1 tanks, the U.S. government and General Dynamics -- the Israeli company's U.S. rival -- were furious because the platforms had been manufactured by General Dynamics and donated by Washington to Ankara in the early 1990s.



The U.S.-Israeli agreement may diminish the significance of Israeli deals for Turkey, also some important affairs among USA-Israel-Turkey, in the meantime Turkey look at some other solutions in Russia and China...But it will not be good for USA. At the end of the paragraph, I can also say, there will be a flexibility in these issues coz USA cannot wanna to see us with other powers and out of Western alliance, Atlantic Alliance... ;)



regards

achilles
08-24-2005, 02:06 PM
As I said, the US is hypocritic as hell.
:bash: :fork: :-*$ :backhand:

Coming from an Israeli this sounds a bit weird. If there are two countries that should demonstrate the biggest gratitude to the US those are Israel first, and then Turkey.

Israel exists today because the US, and then Britain, wanted it to be like that in order for THEIR interests to be served in the middle-east. This is how states behave, in a very selfish way.

From where i stand this simple idea explains that fact that the US has sold weapons to practically every crook on this planet but does not let a country like Israel to do business as usual. Thats what it is. Business as usual. And in an extremely lucrative market like the international weapons market, the US wants to be able to pull the strings regarding who buys/sells what, and to whom.

Mind you...if Greece were allowed to purchase its arms freely our Air Force would have been endowed with lots of Mig's, that would have been bought at a very attractive price. ;)

It is true that the US is a hypocritical state, especially under its current administration, but not for the reasons you mentioned.

DeepSpace
08-24-2005, 02:22 PM
As I said, the US is hypocritic as hell.
:bash: :fork: :-*$ :backhand:

Coming from an Israeli this sounds a bit weird. If there are two countries that should demonstrate the biggest gratitude to the US those are Israel first, and then Turkey.

Don't get me wrong here... I'm not saying that the US is a bunch of nutshells or anything like that, not at all.

All I'm saying is that the US pulls its strings way too much sometimes when it's afraid that Israel (or any other nation for that matter) threatens its sales, even if only in a little bit.

I agree with the rest of your post ;)