L'Equipe: Armstrong lied!

[Bluezoo]

L'Equipe: Armstrong lied!

PARIS, Aug 23 (AFP) - Seven-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong was proven to have taken an endurance-boosting hormone during his first Tour de France triumph in 1999, the French sporting daily L'Equipe said on Tuesday.

With a headline splashing 'Armstrong's Lie' on its front page, the newspaper reported that Armstrong's use of the banned blood booster EPO (erythropoeitin) was revealed in tests by a French laboratory of frozen urine samples taken during his first Tour triumph.

The 33-year-old American retired in July after his record seventh Tour title. The Discovery Channel team leader, who recovered from cancer of the ********s, has always denied taking drugs to boost his performance.

But his domination of the race since 1999, 18 months after he had recovered from cancer, has always aroused suspicion in France, which has stringent anti-doping laws.

Armstrong spent last Saturday on a two-hour bicycle ride with US President George W. Bush, a fellow Texan.

Traces of EPO had been found on six different occasions in Armstrong's 1999 urine samples by the national doping testing laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry near Paris, the newspaper reported.

EPO can boost performance by 30 percent.

According to the report, urine tests for EPO were not as advanced in 1999 as they are now, with more modern testing methods becoming common after 2000 at the Sydney Olympics and the 2001 Tour de France.

The urine samples, taken in 1998 and 1999, were tested in 2004 by the Chatenay-Malabry laboratory, which itself fine-tuned the testing system, according to the report.

No indication was given in the story for the delay in revealing the results or about any preservation or safeguarding methods regarding the samples.

The newspaper said 12 samples had revealed EPO use, including six from Armstrong. It did not identify to which cyclists the other six positive urine samples belonged.

"Of course it cannot be regarded as a positive test in the strict regulatory sense," the newspaper said, claiming that there was no question of sanctions as a result of the findings.

But it said the findings could have consequences, with the World Anti-doping Agency studying possible legal channels.

L'Equipe said that the new revelations could also be raised with the US Anti-Doping Agency.

Armstrong tested positive for drugs only once -- during the 1999 Tour de France. However he was cleared when his team, US Postal, produced a medical certificate showing that he used a cream to ease a pain on his saddle containing a banned corticosteroid.

French suspicions were further fuelled in 2001 when it emerged he had been working with notorious Italian sports doctor Michele Ferrari, suspected in Italy of distributing and administering banned products to a number of top athletes.

Armstrong admitted his "periodic collaboration" with Ferrari, who last year was handed a one-year suspended sentence for sports fraud, but he stands firm behind the fact that he has never tested positive for any banned drugs.

He denied taking banned drugs when announcing his retirement following his last victory on the Champs-Elysées in July, saying people who did not believe in his success did not believe "in miracles, in dreams".

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=23003&name=L%27Equipe%3A+Armstrong+lied%21

[Bluezoo]

Armstrong says L'Equipe on a 'witch hunt'

NANTES, Aug 23 – It appears that Lance Armstrong is destined to spend the first part of his retirement at least defending himself and his record.

Armstrong issued a comment Monday in advance of an article in French sporting daily L'Equipe that accused him of using performance-enhancing drugs during his 1999 Tour de France race, the first of his seven championships.

He posted the following statement to his official website before L'Equipe's article even appeared in Tuesday's edition:

"Yet again, a European newspaper has reported that I have tested positive for performance enhancing drugs. Tomorrow’s L’Equipe, a French sports daily, is reporting that my 1999 samples were positive.

Unfortunately, the witch hunt continues and tomorrow’s article is nothing short of tabloid journalism. The paper even admits in its own article that the science in question here is faulty and that I have no way to defend myself.

They state: 'There will therefore be no counter-exam nor regulatory prosecutions, in a strict sense, since defendant’s rights cannot be respected.' I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance enhancing drugs."

Armstrong's legal team has already filed a libel case against London's The Sunday Times, which is currently scheduled to go to trial in November.

Armstrong is suing the British newspaper for printing a review of the book 'LA Confidential, The Secrets of Lance Armstrong', which likewise details circumstantial evidence that Armstrong has used banned substances to fuel his victories.

The book, co-written by Sunday Times sportswriter David Walsh and former L'Equipe writer Pierre Ballester, was published in France shortly before the 2004 Tour de France.
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=23005&name=Armstrong+says+L%27Equipe+on+a+%27witch+hunt%27

Anyone wants to bike race with me. The losser buys beer! Just had an extra shot of twinkies a few minutes ago. :lol:

[Olybrius]

I read l'Equipe today , they did an impressive work

[Midav]

How do they explain all the successive wins? Especially when more and more drugs were added to the list and tests became more stringent because of speculation about him taking drugs.

If he cheated, shame on him.

But until it is a proven fact, this is a witch hunt.

[Zarathustra]

I think he took some authorized produce to cure his cancer but maybe those produce are illegal in cyclism.

[Olybrius]

For those who can read french:
http://rapidshare.de/files/4272978/L_Equipe__Journal__Mardi23.08.05byAzerty64.pdf.html

[Evildave]

The French just cant get over the fact that a skinny white guy from Texas comes to town every year and kicks thier butts!! :bash:

[Zarathustra]

The French just cant get over the fact that a skinny white guy from Texas comes to town every year and kicks thier butts!! :bash:

Ridiculous, this article is not a " vengeance " of the French because he won 7 tour de France. :roll:
BTW what do you mean by " white guy from Texas " ? :|

[achilles]

Doped or not doped, Armstrong is one of the best athletes ever, given that taking dodgy substances is something that most pro's do. Some get caught, some dont. All the rest looks like hypocritical crap to me.

[btdown]

Ridiculous, this article is not a " vengeance " of the French because he won 7 tour de France

Thats exactly what it is, you goddamn frogs.

[Chuckie]

So let me try and get this straight. In 2004, the French went digging through a freezer and pulled out a secondary urine sample from Lance that was 5-6 years old. They then tested it and found traces of EPO. Since that sample, all others have been clean of that drug and any other drug.

How are these samples secured? Is there someone who guards urine samples? I also read that the samples don't have names on them just codes, which sounds like it's be a bit easier to mess up.

Midav mentioned it above, if Lance was clean all the other years, how did he do so much better than everyone else.

I'm sorry but Lance has come up clean (and won anyway) too many other times before and after that year in question to make me believe it.

[Evildave]

The French just cant get over the fact that a skinny white guy from Texas comes to town every year and kicks thier butts!! :bash:

Ridiculous, this article is not a " vengeance " of the French because he won 7 tour de France. :roll:
BTW what do you mean by " white guy from Texas " ? :|I kid Ikid I joke I joke!!!!!! But I still dont believe he used drugs. As for the skinny white guy,,Well that is just what he is, a skinny white guy from Texas. Dont try to read to much into it.

[Flagg]

Ridiculous, this article is not a " vengeance " of the French because he won 7 tour de France

Thats exactly what it is, you goddamn frogs.

Strike One! Sort it out! :bash:

[roland]

France is the first country to have seriously fought drug on sport and that's a good thing. Almost all countries do the same now.
All champions are under heavy anti drug pressure in France.
The best of all too and perhaps the pressure is bigger on him, that's normal.
May be there is some jealousy at play too, you can't avoid that, there is some against all champions in a so popular sport.
Now, whatever is investigated, until proven guilty, Armstrong is heavily respected in France and the way he was applauded all along the French roads is enough to prove it.
Those who are searching a anti American thing or a froggy whatever on that are just brainwashed @ss holes ==> evildave, btdown and bluezoo = morons

[Knutsen]

This article seems like a good work of investigation. The story about the samples is kind of weird, but AFAIK , they were not looking for Armstrong specifically. In 1998/99 there were no EPO controls (the first were in 2001) , so they kept RANDOM samples in a lab for further investigation, that's what happened here, they were investigating about EPO and found this about Armstrong.

At the same time the french are not very happy about an American winning a recoord 7 tours. When Miguel Indurain won his 5th tour the french weren't very happy either. I remember hearing about doping coming from french sources at that time. But i guess it's normal, as roland said, there's always some part of jealousy.

Drugs appart, Armstrong is a great athelete, he has established an impressive record, but he is not the best cyclist and will never me. For me and for many cycling lovers Armstrong's victories are not comparable to those of Indurain, Anquetil, Merkx and Hinault. I'm too young for Anquetil, Merkx and Hinault, but i do remember Indurain's tours and he had loooots of rivals (Jalabert, Zulle , Rominger, Pantani....) , and he (like the others mentioned) also won other titles (Giros, world records, world championships, olympic medals), so for me Armstrong will always be a step behind those 4 great cyclists.

PD: Although i posted all this, i think this thread belongs to the off topic section, this has nothing to do with politics in a military forum.

[Bluezoo]

France is the first country to have seriously fought drug on sport and that's a good thing. Almost all countries do the same now.
All champions are under heavy anti drug pressure in France.
The best of all too and perhaps the pressure is bigger on him, that's normal.
May be there is some jealousy at play too, you can't avoid that, there is some against all champions in a so popular sport.
Now, whatever is investigated, until proven guilty, Armstrong is heavily respected in France and the way he was applauded all along the French roads is enough to prove it.
Those who are searching a anti American thing or a froggy whatever on that are just brainwashed @ss holes ==> evildave, btdown and bluezoo = morons

Excuse me Roland, WTF is your problem!? Are you that paranoid again? What did I post did you find so offensive? :roll:


If you have anything personal, go PM me and I will square it out with you. p-)

[Evildave]

You obvoisly did not read my whole post. If you had you would know I was doing no such thing. As far as being applauded along the road you are right, but he says himself that for all the applause there are as many people spitting and yelling vulgarities at him.

[Digital Marine]

They just can't take it that he kicked fricken ass in 7 tours

[P.UbedaN°1]

Lance armstrong is a cheater.:bash:
Everybody that follows cyclism is aware of that. He was considered as the Arsene Lupin of cyclismn, always passing successfully the anti doping tests. it was only a question of time before he got caught. He won the Tour 7th times only because he had access to better substances than his opponents.


After all the praises, another so-called US hero goes down in flame.

With all the toxic substances he put in his blood to accomplish his "record", Lance armstrong next challenge will be to live past 50 years old.

[Zarathustra]

Ridiculous, this article is not a " vengeance " of the French because he won 7 tour de France

Thats exactly what it is, you goddamn frogs.

Just use your brain before posting dumb yank.

[Evildave]

Lance armstrong is a cheater.:bash:
Everybody that follows cyclism is aware of that. He was considered as the Arsene Lupin of cyclismn, always passing successfully the anti doping tests. it was only a question of time before he got caught. He won the Tour 7th times only because he had access to better substances than his opponents.


After all the praises, another so-called US hero goes down in flame.

With all the toxic substances he put in his blood to accomplish his "record", Lance armstrong next challenge will be to live past 50 years old.Lol.....the only going down in flames is your credibility!

[Laworkerbee]

This article seems like a good work of investigation. The story about the samples is kind of weird, but AFAIK , they were not looking for Armstrong specifically. In 1998/99 there were no EPO controls (the first were in 2001) , so they kept RANDOM samples in a lab for further investigation, that's what happened here, they were investigating about EPO and found this about Armstrong.

At the same time the french are not very happy about an American winning a recoord 7 tours. When Miguel Indurain won his 5th tour the french weren't very happy either. I remember hearing about doping coming from french sources at that time. But i guess it's normal, as roland said, there's always some part of jealousy.

Drugs appart, Armstrong is a great athelete, he has established an impressive record, but he is not the best cyclist and will never me. For me and for many cycling lovers Armstrong's victories are not comparable to those of Indurain, Anquetil, Merkx and Hinault. I'm too young for Anquetil, Merkx and Hinault, but i do remember Indurain's tours and he had loooots of rivals (Jalabert, Zulle , Rominger, Pantani....) , and he (like the others mentioned) also won other titles (Giros, world records, world championships, olympic medals), so for me Armstrong will always be a step behind those 4 great cyclists.

PD: Although i posted all this, i think this thread belongs to the off topic section, this has nothing to do with politics in a military forum.

Good post man

[jmatucd]

the euros have always doped (don't look at the East German Women's Gymnastics team for guidance on this one). Now an American has cleaned house in the TdF. And the French accuse him of taking EPO drugs.

In my mind there are two scenarios that are plausible:

1) everyone dopes, and most do not get caught since thresholds are posted for how substances can be in which concentrations in your body. They also draw blood, mix it up (and do some fancy stuff) before feeding it back in before the race (I cannot remember the names of these practices, however). Invariably, some get caught.

2) very few dope, and those who do are caught with conclusive tests, consistently.

take your pick. I doubt Lance would be stupid enough to cross the limits at any point. He is fairly careful about everything he does.

As for meeting with the 'doping' doctor (from Italy?): Since the man is so well known in the pro circles, this lends some credibility to option 1.

Either way, it will be fun to see who wins next year. Go Ulrich.

[jmatucd]

oh yea, haters from europe, shut up.

[BadKarma26]

i really really really have a hard time trying not to just say I hate everyone from France...because...that would not be...fair. :|

[seva108]

Something freakin stinks here. Armstrong, the year AFTER the big doping scandal involving Tour riders and EPO (which was '98), decides to take it right before or during the race in '99.

Right. Bullsh*t.

[Olybrius]

This article seems like a good work of investigation. The story about the samples is kind of weird, but AFAIK , they were not looking for Armstrong specifically. In 1998/99 there were no EPO controls (the first were in 2001) , so they kept RANDOM samples in a lab for further investigation, that's what happened here, they were investigating about EPO and found this about Armstrong.

At the same time the french are not very happy about an American winning a recoord 7 tours. When Miguel Indurain won his 5th tour the french weren't very happy either. I remember hearing about doping coming from french sources at that time. But i guess it's normal, as roland said, there's always some part of jealousy.

Drugs appart, Armstrong is a great athelete, he has established an impressive record, but he is not the best cyclist and will never me. For me and for many cycling lovers Armstrong's victories are not comparable to those of Indurain, Anquetil, Merkx and Hinault. I'm too young for Anquetil, Merkx and Hinault, but i do remember Indurain's tours and he had loooots of rivals (Jalabert, Zulle , Rominger, Pantani....) , and he (like the others mentioned) also won other titles (Giros, world records, world championships, olympic medals), so for me Armstrong will always be a step behind those 4 great cyclists.

PD: Although i posted all this, i think this thread belongs to the off topic section, this has nothing to do with politics in a military forum.

it's true we have problems with more recent winners like Indurain and of course Armstrong who , years after years , have a total domination on the race without suffer pain and without never having failure... deadly boring races ! ...

But i think it's absolutely not a problem about the nationality of the winner : many recent foreign winners like Stephen Roche , Bjarne Riis, Greg Lemond or Marco Pantani were very popular (..) and they were popular even when they won against french champions ;) (lemond vs Fignon).

[Olybrius]

Something freakin stinks here. Armstrong, the year AFTER the big doping scandal involving Tour riders and EPO (which was '98), decides to take it right before or during the race in '99.

Right. Bullsh*t.

Unfortunately he could do it because the EPO detect test was available only in 2001.
in 1998 , the investigations started when custom officers found forbidden drugs in a 'Festina team' car.

[dunkin]

L'Equipe: Armstrong lied!

The urine samples, taken in 1998 and 1999, were tested in 2004 by the Chatenay-Malabry laboratory, which itself fine-tuned the testing system, according to the report.

No indication was given in the story for the delay in revealing the results or about any preservation or safeguarding methods regarding the samples.

The newspaper said 12 samples had revealed EPO use, including six from Armstrong. It did not identify to which cyclists the other six positive urine samples belonged.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=23003&name=L%27Equipe%3A+Armstrong+lied%21

Two thing sound a little funny to me.

1. The lab itself "fine-tuned" the testing system. How come this wasn't verified by a separate lab??? In a legal sense this wouldn't stand in any court of law.

2. The lab is quick to release Armstrong’s name, but didn't give out the other names. Not right! If six other samples were positive let us know who they were, even if it might be a little embarrassing!!!

Thing just don't sit right with this!

[Kilgor]

MADRID (*******) - Five-times Tour de France winner Miguel Indurain says the accusations of doping made by sports newspaper L'Equipe against Lance Armstrong are part of a campaign designed to discredit the American rider.
"They have been out to get him in France for a number of years," Indurain was quoted as saying on the website todociciclismo.com on Tuesday.

"He's the one who knows about it, but it seems wrong that they are starting to dig over tests from years ago.

[Knutsen]

the euros have always doped (don't look at the East German Women's Gymnastics team for guidance on this one). Now an American has cleaned house in the TdF. And the French accuse him of taking EPO drugs.

I agree with your post, doping has always been a reality in professional sport, but what is this story about EUROS? I'm sure you know about all the **** going on in NFL, about NBA players refusing to pass drug controls in international competitions , in which , coincidentally the year the controls were mandatory for all the countries the US decided not to bring top NBA stars and we (among other countries) beat them quite easily.
So please think twice before accusing euros of something your country is a great expert about, because those accusations, being true , are far from being fair.

[rister]

"Everywhere I go these days the talk is about Lance, but that's not why he sucks. He sucks because he's caused America to pretend that they enjoy bike racing. Here in Lawrence you can't drive anywhere without being stuck behind riders clad in bright spandex who apparently don't have access to sidewalks, bike paths, or less popular roads. How many riders do you see the rest of the year? How about this, name me another bike race? That's right, you can't. Bike racing isn't exciting, it's not fun to watch, and America couldn't care less about "The Tour" except that an American keeps pedaling faster than everyone else.

"But he's really good!" you exclaim. So? Bobby Fisher was the best chess player in the world for a while but traffic kept flowing. "But he's had cancer!" you demand. So? No one can deny what Lance has overcome, but that doesn't mean you need to try and re-enact his feat down mainstreet.

In closing, cheer for Lance if you want, but bike racing still isn't fun to watch, and it's even less fun when it's happening at 15 mph in a 45 mph zone, in front of my truck."

rofl rofl

[Olybrius]

L'Equipe: Armstrong lied!

The urine samples, taken in 1998 and 1999, were tested in 2004 by the Chatenay-Malabry laboratory, which itself fine-tuned the testing system, according to the report.

No indication was given in the story for the delay in revealing the results or about any preservation or safeguarding methods regarding the samples.

The newspaper said 12 samples had revealed EPO use, including six from Armstrong. It did not identify to which cyclists the other six positive urine samples belonged.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=23003&name=L%27Equipe%3A+Armstrong+lied%21

Two thing sound a little funny to me.

1. The lab itself "fine-tuned" the testing system. How come this wasn't verified by a separate lab??? In a legal sense this wouldn't stand in any court of law.

2. The lab is quick to release Armstrong’s name, but didn't give out the other names. Not right! If six other samples were positive let us know who they were, even if it might be a little embarrassing!!!

Thing just don't sit right with this!

seems you don't know the full story...

1) The lab is the one which developed the official urinary Epo test currently used everywhere since 2001... btw as you can read in the article they used 3 different methods ... and the urine samples are still available for new expertises ...

2) The lab didn't release Armstrong 'name. All approved laboratories like Chatenay-Malabry use only anonymous samples identified by a number. After having gotten some needed documents, the journalists compared the numbers with those written on Le tour 99 anti-doping officials reports where you can read the associated name . The journalists say they will know the other names...

btw , according to anti-doping rules , these officials reports from Le Tour were sent in 1999 to the french government, the french cycling federation and the international cycling union.. so they cant be faked later on

[CMNot]

This is pathetic. There was a good article in The Times about French hostility towards Armstrong during the 2003 tour (Iraq year ;) ), as he, an American, was dominating their sport in their land.

Lets not forget the undisputable facts of this guy. His heart is a third larger than any other persons on record. His resting heartbeat is something stupid like high 20s BPM.

And for whoever it was who said he wins without 'pain'. I suggest you re-watch some of the tours, look at his face - particulaly his eyes - and tell me he isn't feeling the burn.

The French have never been one's to take defeat graciously, but maybe after all these years, they should start.

In the UK we have a saying; credit where credit is due. Never so more pertinant than now :roll:

[Zarathustra]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[dunkin]

L'Equipe: Armstrong lied!

The urine samples, taken in 1998 and 1999, were tested in 2004 by the Chatenay-Malabry laboratory, which itself fine-tuned the testing system, according to the report.

No indication was given in the story for the delay in revealing the results or about any preservation or safeguarding methods regarding the samples.

The newspaper said 12 samples had revealed EPO use, including six from Armstrong. It did not identify to which cyclists the other six positive urine samples belonged.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=25&story_id=23003&name=L%27Equipe%3A+Armstrong+lied%21

Two thing sound a little funny to me.

1. The lab itself "fine-tuned" the testing system. How come this wasn't verified by a separate lab??? In a legal sense this wouldn't stand in any court of law.

2. The lab is quick to release Armstrong’s name, but didn't give out the other names. Not right! If six other samples were positive let us know who they were, even if it might be a little embarrassing!!!

Thing just don't sit right with this!

seems you don't know the full story...

1) The lab is the one which developed the official urinary Epo test currently used everywhere since 2001... btw as you can read in the article they used 3 different methods ... and the urine samples are still available for new expertises ...

2) The lab didn't release Armstrong 'name. All approved laboratories like Chatenay-Malabry use only anonymous samples identified by a number. After having gotten some needed documents, the journalists compared the numbers with those written on Le tour 99 anti-doping officials reports where you can read the associated name . The journalists say they will know the other names...

btw , according to anti-doping rules , these officials reports from Le Tour were sent in 1999 to the french government, the french cycling federation and the international cycling union.. so they cant be faked later on

My points still stand,

1. Send them to another lab for confirmation (hasn't happened?)

2. So it wasn't the lab that released the name, then why didn't the news paper report the others? See a little bias here, from a French news paper . . . . . mon dieu, no.

[Zoomie]

I also like how it just now comes out after he won his 7th Tour, and the sample now being 6 years old. If it's really positive for blood doping, what took them so long to discover this?

[Olybrius]

My points still stand,

1. Send them to another lab for confirmation (hasn't happened?)

2. So it wasn't the lab that released the name, then why didn't the news paper report the others? See a little bias here, from a French news paper . . . . . mon dieu, no.

these tests were made for internal scientific research, not for controls thus the Laboratories did not have any reason to require a new expertise. The journalists obviously did not have access to the samples. Now i guess new investigations will begin ;)

On 12 positive results, 6 related to the same number so it was more logical and more credible to begin research and steppings with, they knew only later that this number was about L. Armstrong ;)

[Olybrius]

Tour de France official: Armstrong doping a 'proven' fact

ASSOCIATED PRESS

PARIS - The director of the Tour de France said it was a "proven scientific fact" that Lance Armstrong had a performance-boosting drug in his body during his 1999 Tour win, and that the seven-time champion owed fans an explanation.
In a story Wednesday, Jean-Marie Leblanc praised L'Equipe for an investigation that reported that six urine samples provided by Armstrong during the 1999 Tour tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO. The French sports daily on Tuesday accused Armstrong of using EPO during his first Tour win in 1999.

"For the first time - and these are no longer rumors or insinuations, these are proven scientific facts - someone has shown me that in 1999, Armstrong had a banned substance called EPO in his body," Leblanc told the paper.

"The ball is now in his camp. Why, how, by whom? He owes explanations to us and to everyone who follows the tour," Leblanc said. "What L'Equipe revealed shows me that I was fooled. We were all fooled."



http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/340130p-290421c.html

[dunkin]

Just thinking something.

1) Armstrong had just gotten over cancer at this time.

2) EPO is a red cell-booster

3) Some cancer patients take red cell-booster help after treatment.

Could he be taking something else, that's not banned, but would cause, should we say "a false positive for EPO"???

[cut]

I read l'Equipe today , they did an impressive work

x2

[cut]

Just thinking something.

1) Armstrong had just gotten over cancer at this time.

2) EPO is a red cell-booster

3) Some cancer patients take red cell-booster help after treatment.

Could he be taking something else, that's not banned, but would cause, should we say "a false positive for EPO"???

although I'm sure it helps, if it's not necessary, which it isn't if you are healthy enough to take part in the tour de france, then any athlete wouldn't take it. anything that boost red-blood cells is illegal in sport, not just EPO because ,ore red-blood cells will give you an advantage.

L'equipe is not just some french newspaper, it's THE newspaper for the tour de france

[cut]

I also like how it just now comes out after he won his 7th Tour, and the sample now being 6 years old. If it's really positive for blood doping, what took them so long to discover this?

they didn't have EPO testing in '99, they have started testing samples from before EPO testing was introduced, to catch cheats from those tours, who may be one step ahead of the anti-doping officials.

You're cynical reaction would have been the same whenever this news would have come out.

[foxtrot023]

the euros have always doped (don't look at the East German Women's Gymnastics team for guidance on this one). Now an American has cleaned house in the TdF. And the French accuse him of taking EPO drugs.

I agree with your post, doping has always been a reality in professional sport, but what is this story about EUROS? I'm sure you know about all the **** going on in NFL, about NBA players refusing to pass drug controls in international competitions , in which , coincidentally the year the controls were mandatory for all the countries the US decided not to bring top NBA stars and we (among other countries) beat them quite easily.
So please think twice before accusing euros of something your country is a great expert about, because those accusations, being true , are far from being fair.

Yeah, let us not forget MLB, with Canseco, Big Mac, et al. So learn to shut up jmatucd before posting crap. Good post Knutsen, and I agree, athletes from all nations do dope.

[Zarathustra]

Well said cut. ;)

[Olybrius]

L'equipe is not just some french newspaper, it's THE newspaper for the tour de france

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4997/i54407armstrong0cj.jpg

[Zarathustra]

^^A proof^^
Armstrong speak French.

[cut]

^^A proof^^
Armstrong speak French.

read maybe, but speaking? Surely you have to be able to understand what he says to call it speaking p-)

[stephane from Paris]

This is pathetic. There was a good article in The Times about French hostility towards Armstrong during the 2003 tour (Iraq year ;) ), as he, an American, was dominating their sport in their land.

:roll:

Says that to Tony Parker (san antonio spurs/basket) who received hate in every places he played in the US in 2003!
In 2003, Amstrong like a few other were highly suspected of doping! Some wre arrested and a few admitted.

People who thinks Amstrong sport is clean are ignorants! nearly all uses medicines (40% of them need medicines for breathing problem!!!?????? when 10% of people have this problem) even in non professionnal level!

Amstrong uses 10 years after his cancer CORTISONE (don't know english word) when every people who had one cancer stop this medicine at 3 years!!
Ask to your doctor how this medicine can increase your value!

If you stop EPO 3 days before a racing, no risk to be take!
Ask yourself why he comes in europe just a few days before the only racing he does!
All take medicines but he certainly take better ones which is not on the list of banned products or find products! strangely before his first Tour he had absolutly no result! It's like if a 25years old guy who ran 100m but never had result, win the Olympic game with 5m in front of every other runners!
His ex employed said in 2003 how he was doped! To be not taken isn't equal with to be clean!

for information after his second Tour de France he took a book maker style insurance (400,000$ in a US company) and received $1.5 millions at the third Tour, 3 at the 4th Tour...
this US company attacked him in justice, just wait.

Just for information "L'Equipe" news paper is in the same trust of the Tour de France! For their business to shut up this affair was the better way since if people thinks Tour= doping it will be the end of this great business!

[seva108]

1. This comes out after Armstrong has retired and is 6 years LATE. There is no way for him to defend himself. We are just supposed to take the word of these people -- and assume that the samples were kept with integrity.

2. That EPO test has potential false positive problems: http://www.berria.info/english/ikusi.php?id=1661

3. He was tested extensively in subsequent tours (15 times in the last tour), with NO SUBSTANCES found. The French have tested him maniacally, obsessively, in every tour....and now they find something on 6 year old samples?? FISHY.

[seva108]

quote]

Says that to Tony Parker (san antonio spurs/basket) who received hate in every places he played in the US in 2003!


That's a lie.

[stephane from Paris]

quote]

Says that to Tony Parker (san antonio spurs/basket) who received hate in every places he played in the US in 2003!


That's a lie.

he said himself that he was hiss because he's french so who lie you or him?? BTW he admitted that it's ended in 2004.

Every runners and specially all the leaders are testing maniacally here, sorry for you! And here they are testing ALL the year like in Itally.
A few french were taken and a few will be in justice court soon!
These guys received incredible fireback from people here, far more than L.A.
In a book (2004 from memory): "Lance Amstrong confidential", authors gave facts againts him! L.A. loose twice in justice against the authors! He's own salaries said he took!

Everybody knows that in the US , medicines for sports are 2 steps beyond!
Try to have the muscle structures of US 100m runners without taking medicines!

Your guys used medicines but at this time they are unknow or impossible to find, that's all!
Amstrong is without doubt a champion but he used medicines like the rest of bicycle champions but certainly a far efficient one!

[Bluezoo]

Tour de France official: Armstrong doping a 'proven' fact

ASSOCIATED PRESS

PARIS - The director of the Tour de France said it was a "proven scientific fact" that Lance Armstrong had a performance-boosting drug in his body during his 1999 Tour win, and that the seven-time champion owed fans an explanation.
In a story Wednesday, Jean-Marie Leblanc praised L'Equipe for an investigation that reported that six urine samples provided by Armstrong during the 1999 Tour tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO. The French sports daily on Tuesday accused Armstrong of using EPO during his first Tour win in 1999.

"For the first time - and these are no longer rumors or insinuations, these are proven scientific facts - someone has shown me that in 1999, Armstrong had a banned substance called EPO in his body," Leblanc told the paper.

"The ball is now in his camp. Why, how, by whom? He owes explanations to us and to everyone who follows the tour," Leblanc said. "What L'Equipe revealed shows me that I was fooled. We were all fooled."



http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/340130p-290421c.html

Wow, wow, wow......"proven scientific fact"? "someone has shown me..." This is waaaaayway going too far.

This way ward accusations cannot be taken lightly without being held to account therefore in the proper forum. Is this so called “director” the judge, jury and the lynch mob rolled in one, reminiscent of the French revolution? This is more and more becoming like a the kangaroo court which has resorted to publicity in lieu of judicial fiat. Is L'Equipe's subscribers the proper venue resolving this matter with finality? . If they have something against Mr. Armstrong, the matter will have to be resolved with finality in court, not a witch hunt by Rospierre .

Alleging these before media is one thing, but does not necessarily mean these are proven facts in any court of law.

As far as I am concerned, these are just say so/heresay findings from "someone". This will go a long way and some questions could be raised in the process. It strikes me that after seven long years, why is it only now that these things are resurrected.

-Is there any prescriptive period for launching inquiries such as these?
-Does estoppel apply to the commission?
-Are those who conducted the test competent in their field?
-Were there any possibility of contaminating these samples during all these years?
-How secure or tamper proof are these samples and further, where were they stored?
- Who had access to them?

If it even goes as far s these, you may also challenge and ask....
-What kind of testing procedure was conducted?
-Was the test accepted by the scientific community?
-Was the test verified by an independent laboratory?

This could go on further with a litany of other questions. I mean, questions which would even attack this so called “director” such as — Was he lucid and competent at the time he made his shot to gain publicity? :lol:

To my mind, the demeanor and timing of this publicity isn't exactly an act of good faith or is tainted with malice. The tragic part about it is that this so could "director" wants Lance to explain his side before whom? They have precluded themselves from being impartial when they have prejudged him by this salacious announcement. Lance has nothing to explain to these people for they have already embarrassed him in the first place, and hopefully, he will not dignify these people by explaining his side before this media circus. Suddenly, meaning of sour grapes has taken a new twist. If you lost big time for seven consecutive times, dig and dig as hard as you can until you find ****. p-)

[Olybrius]

1. This comes out after Armstrong has retired and is 6 years LATE. There is no way for him to defend himself. We are just supposed to take the word of these people -- and assume that the samples were kept with integrity.

2. That EPO test has potential false positive problems: http://www.berria.info/english/ikusi.php?id=1661

3. He was tested extensively in subsequent tours (15 times in the last tour), with NO SUBSTANCES found. The French have tested him maniacally, obsessively, in every tour....and now they find something on 6 year old samples?? FISHY.

1) Funny how he chose to polemize rather than to ask an expertise. Samples are still available and can be analyzed in-depth...even by an american labs ;)
I learnt there are also urines samples from le Tour 2000 but they are actually under "judicial seal" because of another police investigation... I guess these B samples will be interesting to test too, don't you know ?

2) Since 2001 ,there is only one disputed case, by Belgian scientists who would like to set up their own method of detection.

3) ooh don't be paranoid, it's only anti-doping rules ;) , in Le Tour , winners and leaders must be controlled at each stage .
Since 2001, if you stop EPO 3 days before the beginning of Le Tour, you are "clean"

[Olybrius]

Tour de France official: Armstrong doping a 'proven' fact

ASSOCIATED PRESS

PARIS - The director of the Tour de France said it was a "proven scientific fact" that Lance Armstrong had a performance-boosting drug in his body during his 1999 Tour win, and that the seven-time champion owed fans an explanation.
In a story Wednesday, Jean-Marie Leblanc praised L'Equipe for an investigation that reported that six urine samples provided by Armstrong during the 1999 Tour tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO. The French sports daily on Tuesday accused Armstrong of using EPO during his first Tour win in 1999.

"For the first time - and these are no longer rumors or insinuations, these are proven scientific facts - someone has shown me that in 1999, Armstrong had a banned substance called EPO in his body," Leblanc told the paper.

"The ball is now in his camp. Why, how, by whom? He owes explanations to us and to everyone who follows the tour," Leblanc said. "What L'Equipe revealed shows me that I was fooled. We were all fooled."



http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/340130p-290421c.html

Wow, wow, wow......"proven scientific fact"? "someone has shown me..." This is waaaaayway going too far.

This way ward accusations cannot be taken lightly without being held to account therefore in the proper forum. Is this so called “director” the judge, jury and the lynch mob rolled in one, reminiscent of the French revolution? This is more and more becoming like a the kangaroo court which has resorted to publicity in lieu of judicial fiat. Is L'Equipe's subscribers the proper venue resolving this matter with finality? . If they have something against Mr. Armstrong, the matter will have to be resolved with finality in court, not a witch hunt by Rospierre .

Alleging these before media is one thing, but does not necessarily mean these are proven facts in any court of law.

As far as I am concerned, these are just say so/heresay findings from "someone". This will go a long way and some questions could be raised in the process. It strikes me that after seven long years, why is it only now that these things are resurrected.

-Is there any prescriptive period for launching inquiries such as these?
-Does estoppel apply to the commission?
-Are those who conducted the test competent in their field?
-Were there any possibility of contaminating these samples during all these years?
-How secure or tamper proof are these samples and further, where were they stored?
- Who had access to them?

If it even goes as far s these, you may also challenge and ask....
-What kind of testing procedure was conducted?
-Was the test accepted by the scientific community?
-Was the test verified by an independent laboratory?

This could go on further with a litany of other questions. I mean, questions which would even attack this so called “director” such as — Was he lucid and competent at the time he made his shot to gain publicity? :lol:

To my mind, the demeanor and timing of this publicity isn't exactly an act of good faith or is tainted with malice. The tragic part about it is that this so could "director" wants Lance to explain his side before whom? They have precluded themselves from being impartial when they have prejudged him by this salacious announcement. Lance has nothing to explain to these people for they have already embarrassed him in the first place, and hopefully, he will not dignify these people by explaining his side before this media circus. Suddenly, meaning of sour grapes has taken a new twist. If you lost big time for seven consecutive times, dig and dig as hard as you can until you find ****. p-)


Speaking of allegations ...

1°) asks questions you don't know the answers.
2°) never seeks the answers (important).
3°) and concludes with a preconception...

Scientific way of thinking , i guess :lol:

[California Joe]

Right or wrong, if I was Tyler Hamilton I'd be seriously pissed....... ;)

[bugkill]

funny, i find it very strange that the director of the tour would come out and demand a explanation from lance, throw his support behind the newspaper (although it belongs to the tour), but not wait until it is completely verified and proven fact. hell, he did'nt even give the accused a chance to say anything about it or seem to worry about possible contamination of the samples.

they have not been able to stick it to lance over the years, and i think that they have looked at the present situation in the states when it concerns doping in sports and came up with an idea. they saw a chance to smear lance without having to actually prove that he did it. it is just too much of a coincedence that this would come out after he has retired and has won his seventh straight tour. they now say that his "B" samples from 1999 had EPO in them and that he was a cheater, but something does not mesh.

how is it that lance could continue on the tour and win six more times while they were later able to detect EPO? how do you explain the other tour victories? did EPO mutate in his system and made him strong enough to win seven straight and not get caught? do they have an explanation for that? no! they will not have to prove it because all they wanted to do was create doubt about lance's accomplishments. they come up with an old sample (god only knows who had contact with it) and expect the world to believe that lance cheated. i for one do not because he was never found to have any drugs in his system during the years and he was the most tested athlete in the world. an old test from '99 means absolutely nothing because there are way too many questions that surround the security of those samples.

i don't hate the french and i could care less for their politics about us, so i won't get into the french bashing thing. i will say that i find it quite ridiculous that they would come out with this crap knowing that there would be no way that lance could defend himself and that the claims could not be proven with 100% verification. it is only to "tar and feather" lance, pure and simple. they could never catch him cheating and were always dumb-founded by his achievements, so they resort to this.

[quellish]

"Everywhere I go these days the talk is about Lance, but that's not why he sucks. He sucks because he's caused America to pretend that they enjoy bike racing. Here in Lawrence you can't drive anywhere without being stuck behind riders clad in bright spandex who apparently don't have access to sidewalks, bike paths, or less popular roads. How many riders do you see the rest of the year? How about this, name me another bike race? That's right, you can't. Bike racing isn't exciting, it's not fun to watch, and America couldn't care less about "The Tour" except that an American keeps pedaling faster than everyone else.

"But he's really good!" you exclaim. So? Bobby Fisher was the best chess player in the world for a while but traffic kept flowing. "But he's had cancer!" you demand. So? No one can deny what Lance has overcome, but that doesn't mean you need to try and re-enact his feat down mainstreet.

In closing, cheer for Lance if you want, but bike racing still isn't fun to watch, and it's even less fun when it's happening at 15 mph in a 45 mph zone, in front of my truck."

rofl rofl

I'm guessing that since you quoted the whole thing, it comes from elsewhere (though no link or attribution to the original).
The person who originally wrote that should read their state's driver's manual carefully. Most cover laws regarding cyclists extensively. In every state I've lived, bicycles are considered motor vehicles and should NEVER be on sidewalks. Nor should a motorist illegally pass a cyclist, or forget who has the right of way.

Of course, now I live in California. Drivers here are such retards that wether I'm in my car or on a bike, ITS ON, BITCH!

[quellish]

Everybody knows that in the US , medicines for sports are 2 steps beyond!
Try to have the muscle structures of US 100m runners without taking medicines!

Your guys used medicines but at this time they are unknow or impossible to find, that's all!
Amstrong is without doubt a champion but he used medicines like the rest of bicycle champions but certainly a far efficient one!

Most people can't imagine themselves running a mile, though pretty much everyone can. I'm starting to think that people are now going to say Rangers are doping too - they just can't imagine someone running or cycling farther than from the couch to the kitchen.

Me, I don't take any performance enhancing drugs, and I *do* have the muscles of a 100m sprinter. Training will do that.

[sir-chimp]

Everybody knows that in the US , medicines for sports are 2 steps beyond!
Try to have the muscle structures of US 100m runners without taking medicines!

Your guys used medicines but at this time they are unknow or impossible to find, that's all!
Amstrong is without doubt a champion but he used medicines like the rest of bicycle champions but certainly a far efficient one!

Most people can't imagine themselves running a mile, though pretty much everyone can. I'm starting to think that people are now going to say Rangers are doping too - they just can't imagine someone running or cycling farther than from the couch to the kitchen.

Me, I don't take any performance enhancing drugs, and I *do* have the muscles of a 100m sprinter. Training will do that.

Too late - I have already heard those claims of SF doping being made - its sad if its true and its sad if its a lie

[dunkin]

quote]

Says that to Tony Parker (san antonio spurs/basket) who received hate in every places he played in the US in 2003!


That's a lie.

he said himself that he was hiss because he's french so who lie you or him?? BTW he admitted that it's ended in 2004.

He got booed and hissed, because he sucks!

Back on topic,

You know we can bitch and moan on both sides about Armstrong being on, or not on, banned substances, are we ever going to know for sure, probably not.

I will agree that most, if not all, of today’s athletes are on some performance enhancing drug, or procedure. Is it ever going to stop, no, we keep finding new ways of making our bodies push the limits with the help of drugs.

[Syncmaster]

I'll try to sort some things out and make it more understandable:

Erythropoetin is a natural substance, occurring in every individual in amounts, depending of their health state. It is produced primarily in kidneys, although a small amount is produced also in the liver and/or blood macrophages (killer cells of the immune system). It is a protein containing 193 amino acids (smaller than human insuline) which is heavily glycosylated when mature in order to make it more stable in the blood circulation. It acts by binding to a receptor on the surface of erythroid precursor cells in the bone marrow, thus forcing these cells to transform into erythrocytes (red blood cells). Production of Erythropoetin in a human rises when we are anemic (Cancer chemotherapy, AIDS therapy etc), have a lack of oxygen (high altitudes) etc.

So it is a natural occurring substance known to us for decades. Genetic engineering enabled us to get recombinant human Erythropoetin that is the same as the original one. Called EPOETIN ALFA or EPOETIN BETA, there are two forms available but are clinically indistinguishable and referred simply as EPO. It is given intravenously (fastest response), subcutaneously (strongest response) or intraperitoneally (empty space around the intestines). When given intravenously it is cleared from the blood plasma with a half-life of 10 hours. Therefore it has to be given more than three times a week to have a response. After that we look for the hematocrit (percentage of blood volume own to red blood cells). This is what athletes are after so eagerly. Higher hematocrit gives you capability to store more oxygen, your muscles don’t start to hurt so fast, you breathe more slowly… But, too high hematocrit can mean death due to highly viscous blood clogging your arteries. Pantani himself was sent home once after they found his hematocrite too high. You don’t need to use EPO at the race alone, hematocrite will stay high for some time and to prolong the effect, they use a trick: have the athlete live on high ground or low oxygen conditions for some time. The body will produce erythropoietin on its own. To make it more “efficient”, athletes are given EPO at that time. When their hematocrite is high enough, they take their blood many times and store it. When on the race, they just keep changing their blood with the blood stored, so their hematocrit stays elevated and there is no trace of EPO used. The procedure is called autologous transfusion and a variation of it is also used preoperatively on patients undergoing surgery with great blood loss.

So, we can see that EPO disappears form your body very fast, leaving no trace. I don’t know for sure though, how they find evidence for EPO abuse in your urine, but it looks like it’s cleared from the blood through kidneys in some part.

Armstrong’s supposed abuse of EPO cannot be explained by his cancer treatment IMO. EPO can ameliorate the anemia associated with cancer chemotherapy, but the drug needs to be given only when the marrow-suppressive effect of the chemotherapy is present. I doubt he was taking chemotherapeutics at the time of Tour though.

I suspect they‘ll stop/have stopped using EPO just because somebody has/will bring out a much more potent and efficient analogue of it, used in much smaller doses. Then it will take a few years just to develop a proving method for it etc. Afraid its only just the beginning, with the gene therapy just waiting behind the corner we are in for a nasty business of super athlete production in no time soon.
:|

[RGRBOX]

France is the first country to have seriously fought drug on sport and that's a good thing. Almost all countries do the same now.
All champions are under heavy anti drug pressure in France.
The best of all too and perhaps the pressure is bigger on him, that's normal.
May be there is some jealousy at play too, you can't avoid that, there is some against all champions in a so popular sport.
Now, whatever is investigated, until proven guilty, Armstrong is heavily respected in France and the way he was applauded all along the French roads is enough to prove it.
Those who are searching a anti American thing or a froggy whatever on that are just brainwashed @ss holes ==> evildave, btdown and bluezoo = morons

Rolans right, Lance is loved and respected over here. You can see this all along the roads each year during the Tour. Sure there are some who oare not content with this, and hate the idea of any American winning the Tour. But the majority of French have no problem, and love the Tour because they love the sport.

[Chuckie]

Lance is supposed to be on Larry King tonight to defend himself. It's on at 9:00pm on East Coast.

[RGRBOX]

Funny, yesterday, CNN was reporting about this story and the guy, British reporter, that they were talking to made the statement that most French hate Lance... I found this funny because of what I here from French about him, on another note, I find it stupid how CNN loves to interview other reportes... damn those people love themselves.. .

[tooms]

Lance is maybe doped like a lot of professional cyclists. He is still a great champion.

[Freibier]

Lance is maybe doped like a lot of professional cyclists. He is still a great champion.
x2

[Zarathustra]

Lance is maybe doped like a lot of professional cyclists. He is still a great champion.
x2

X3 :D

[buckeyedoc]

The French are wine-drinking, cheese-eating, surrender monkeys.

My question is, why in the hell do they still have his urine from 6 year ago?

[Zarathustra]

The French are wine-drinking, cheese-eating, surrender monkeys.

Indeed we are. Where did you told that breaking news dude ?

[buckeyedoc]

Read it in the L'Equipe. It was on the front page. ;)

[derkrieger]

Typical european inferiority-complex against Americans.
What disturbs at most is that some french are synchronizedly judges, public prosecutors and executioners. They gave him no chanve to defend his case.
C'est la vie French, get over it, you have been continously raped by a texan.
Reinhard

[Sharp]

Typical american superiority-complex against Europeans

C'est probablement la vie, mais vas dont t'acheter une histoire avant de parler d'Europe.. :roll:

[derkrieger]

I am from Germany bro.
about ur french remark, I supposedly dont need to buy one ;)
but seriously dont you find all these accusations a little bit disturbing?

[Sharp]

I am from Germany bro.
about ur french remark, I supposedly dont need to buy one ;)
but seriously dont you find all these accusations a little bit disturbing?

Actually i've only read one news on french media about this, and nothing to the tv. then i dunno, they probably wait something (test resultats?) or it's was just a "hot news" from l'Equipe and there will have no end to this story..

Time will say us what we have to know more about this point...

[derkrieger]

Well you should see the german tv channels, they are like a lion attacking a gazelle in africa after having heard this story from L'Equipe.
You know we root much for our own Tour de France ace Jan Ullrich, who is actually a lazy bum and childish character. He has never possesed the mental toughness Lance had. He can only defeat him with the media help.
Eddie Mercks stood by Lance BTW

[Sharp]

Well you should see the german tv channels, they are like a lion attacking a gazelle in africa after having heard this story from L'Equipe.
You know we root much for our own Tour de France ace Jan Ullrich, who is actually a lazy bum and childish character. He has never possesed the mental toughness Lance had. He can only defeat him with the media help.
Eddie Mercks stood by Lance BTW

Look like the Peugeot Logan story.. if you know it.. :)

Btw, i'm sure that L'Equipe would not lauch charges like that if they had no suspicions of what they say or proof with a certain percent of credibility.
After all, it's not because he's american and the winner of the French Road that he's 100% clear.

What type of answer give your medias?

[derkrieger]

They are all voicing L'Equipe, Lance has already lost his eminence in their eyes. This is atleast what I have observed up to now.

[Bluezoo]

And here is an update from CNN. I was nearly floored when read this, but heck, you read it for yourself and his choice of words which I edited . I don't blame him for reacting this way: :roll: ;)


Armstrong on newspaper's accusations: 'This thing stinks'


'' (edited) " French journalism nothing new, cyclist says

Friday, August 26, 2005; Posted: 9:49 a.m. EDT (13:49 GMT)
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/SPORT/08/26/armstrong.lkl/story.vert.armstrong.lkl.jpg
Armstrong questions the science behind testing years-old samples, with no controls in place.


NEW YORK (CNN) -- Lance Armstrong remained steadfast Thursday that he has never used performance-enhancing drugs, and he called a French newspaper's allegations that he used a banned substance in 1999 -- when he won the first of seven Tour de France titles -- "preposterous."

"This thing stinks," Armstrong told CNN's "Larry King Live" in his first television interview since the allegations were made. "I've said it for longer than seven years: I have never doped. I can say it again. But I've said it for seven years; it doesn't help. But the fact of the matter is I haven't (doped)."

Armstrong, a cancer survivor, added: "If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No. No way."

Armstrong said he has dealt with "slimy" journalism from the French for the last seven years and "this is perhaps the worst of it."

For the full text, please go to:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/08/26/armstrong.lkl/

[Syncmaster]

C'mon Lance, a prostate cancer in an early stage certainly cannot be indicated as a death sentence!! Millions of people are dealing with much more serious cancers every day and those that survive (majority), certainly don't go around telling people they were sentenced to death!! :bash:

[Bluezoo]

.....What is the alleged evidence against Lance?

The French national drug testing laboratory reportedly found "indisputable" traces of EPO in six urine samples taken from Lance in 1999. L'Équipe published a laboratory document showing positive EPO results for six anonymous samples taken during the 1999 Tour de France (the first of Lance's seven straight wins), and matched their identifying numbers with statements Lance had signed.

How come the French don't believe in miracles?
Isn't it miraculous that the French national drug testing laboratory, while not targeting Lance, suddenly discredited ALL of Lance's sooo irritating victories by uncovering "indisputable" evidence that he had traces of a banned substance in his body during his first Tour de France victory?
Isn't it miraculous that there is no way to disprove the "indisputable" evidence since there is no more sample left to test?

Isnj't it a miracle that no test existed in 1999 for detecting EPO?

Of course everyone is supposed to conclude that Lance cheated and no one is supposed to suspect that the samples were contaminated.

Or to wonder why NONE of the many drug tests Lance took year after year came back positive.

Or why the French lab retested 1999 urine samples? (Was it a good year?)

Was it part of a plan to target or even to frame Lance?

"Scientists have had their doubts about Armstrong for a long time," said Jean-Pierre de Mondenard, a French sports doctor who once worked for the Tour, detecting riders' drug use. "They were fed up with being fooled. Armstrong's seven victories were a defeat for the battle against doping."

Doesn't sound like scientific objectivity held sway, does it?

Did Lance really cheat? Or did the French decide to make it look like he did, in a "scientific" way that cannot be disproven?

It was the King of France who helped the American Revolution succeed, not the secular extremists who overthrew the monarchy and conducted a Reign of Terror.

by Michael Gaynor
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7774

[Bluezoo]

C'mon Lance, a prostate cancer in an early stage certainly cannot be indicated as a death sentence!! Millions of people are dealing with much more serious cancers every day and those that survive (majority), certainly don't go around telling people they were sentenced to death!! :bash:

You are a believer! woot

I watched Shrek with my kids and now, I'm a believer! :lol:

[Chuckie]

C'mon Lance, a prostate cancer in an early stage certainly cannot be indicated as a death sentence!! Millions of people are dealing with much more serious cancers every day and those that survive (majority), certainly don't go around telling people they were sentenced to death!! :bash:

Umm, it was testicular cancer which spread to his lungs and brain. He was given a 20% chance of survival.

[stephane from Paris]

In shrek 2, you're the Prince Bluezob!

Just to notice that the best french cyclism runner was arrested several years ago for a dopage affair (the one due to the arrest of the belgian Willy Voot team member)!
this guy was never controled OK to drugs , NEVER!! For month he said (he and a few others runners) that he never touch dopage!
But justice gave fact and he had to admit later!
Amstrong likes 90% of competitors used doping and if they are rarely taken it's because they have efficient doctors and for some new drugs.

It could be interresting to save their blood for years for futures tests!

And i thinks that if Amstrong was Democrat you and others in the US never spoke of comspiracy!
Notice that here in France, nearly all people says: yes he certainly took drugs like all others so what importance!
btw it will be interresting to see the result of trials!

[DOOMSDAYDEXTER]

They may well have given the guy EPo to help him recover his red blood counts after a course of chemo. The stuff he had batters your bone marrow like crazy. It's a pretty standard part of the supportive therapy.

Of course the french are determined to hammer the guy, they have been from the beginning.

Whichever **** wrote something about being lucky to live till fifty, well your right, he will be, but he's done more in the last ten years than you'll ever achieve in your life.

Regards

[Deuterium]

C'mon Lance, a prostate cancer in an early stage certainly cannot be indicated as a death sentence!! Millions of people are dealing with much more serious cancers every day and those that survive (majority), certainly don't go around telling people they were sentenced to death!! :bash:

Please do a little research before you post. You obviously don't know much about this subject.

[Creeper]

Just a cpl points:
(note: i did not read the previous 6 pgs. so ,,,)

I was a Cat 1 USCF road cyclist for two years back in the Lemond days, I have trained and raced in europe.
IMHO: Europeans do not favor americans racing on their turf. Just the way it was and is. Perhaps the French are the worst at the "hate"or non-favorable "feelings". Just my opinion.
The other small point, which may be significant; there has not been a French winner of the Tour in 20 years. ( I think Greg broke the last occurance) so,,
My knowledge of what it takes to race a multi-stage event in Europe and that the Discovery team had ALOT of money to make things happen- more than any other team. Be it that it may- the big picture of all that is involved (R&D,support,logistics, etc) has been overshadowed by a small item: allegations of doping.
Its all fun till someone gets a bloody nose. I guess the french @ the Tour got tired of wiping their selves across their noses.

[RGRBOX]

C'mon Lance, a prostate cancer in an early stage certainly cannot be indicated as a death sentence!! Millions of people are dealing with much more serious cancers every day and those that survive (majority), certainly don't go around telling people they were sentenced to death!! :bash:
Let me gues, you've never had cancer? Were you in the guys shoes, do you know how he felt, did you go thru the same thing he did. But you shoot your mouth off about somthign like this. Sadely there are many people out there whohave cancer, and thankk god that the majority survive, but the few who die, it's a death sentence.....

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Let me gues, you've never had cancer? Were you in the guys shoes, do you know how he felt, did you go thru the same thing he did. But you shoot your mouth off about somthign like this. Sadely there are many people out there whohave cancer, and thankk god that the majority survive, but the few who die, it's a death sentence.....

Word, doping or not what he did was an amazing feat. I myself am at a high risk for getting cancer, and if I ever do get it I hope I can posse up take it like he did and make something of what time you have left.

[stephane from Paris]

Just a cpl points:
(note: i did not read the previous 6 pgs. so ,,,)

I was a Cat 1 USCF road cyclist for two years back in the Lemond days, I have trained and raced in europe.
IMHO: Europeans do not favor americans racing on their turf. Just the way it was and is. Perhaps the French are the worst at the "hate"or non-favorable "feelings". Just my opinion.
The other small point, which may be significant; there has not been a French winner of the Tour in 20 years. ( I think Greg broke the last occurance) so,,


BS! Greg Lemon was very popular here (more than his french opponent Laurent Fignon) because he was a nice guy! Amstrong lever smile and never be close to supporters!
Before his cancer Amstrong was nothing and after (under cortisone medicines) he won all run!! That is why since the beginning his under eyes!
And several persons from his own team accused him of dopage (and they are not french but americans)!
No doubt he took likes all cyclists! When you escape death (some are suspicious about his cancer) wins a tons of money and live after a fantastic life (maybe shorter) could be an explanation!

[Zarathustra]

That's funny how all Americans on here think that the french hated Greg Lemond and Lance Armstrong. Have you ever been to France before saying such bull**** ? Just don't post if you have no fvcking idea what you are talking about. Most french I know love both of these cyclist.

[roland]

One argument is "why after 6 years"
No worry, the 2005 sample are going to be tested in 6 years, in 2010, in 2050, anytime when new detection methodes are going to be found.
France said NO DOPING.
Those who don't understand that have to stay home or take the risk to get there cheating discovered anytime in the future.
I think now there is little doubt that L'Equipe's work is serious. Lance can sue whenever he wants.
Those who refuse to see the truth pretexting some supposed french anti americanism are just brainwashed morons.
This being said, even now, I think Lance is still respected and everybody know he is a great champion with a splendid mental.

[Prometheus]

That's funny how all Americans on here think that the french hated Greg Lemond and Lance Armstrong.



Typical American reaction :)
They are the best, the worlds best country, far superior, home of the brave, yadda-yadda... if they're cought for cheating, the American propaganda medias start a campaign against the "evil Anti-American French/Europeans" who don't like the "good Americans". You shouldn't take them serious.


Have you ever been to France before saying such bull**** ? Just don't post if you have no fvcking idea what you are talking about. Most french I know love both of these cyclist.

Quoted for truth.

[Bluezoo]

In shrek 2, you're the Prince Bluezob!.....

Amstrong likes 90% of competitors used doping and if they are rarely taken it's because they have efficient doctors and for some new drugs.

And i thinks that if Amstrong was Democrat you and others in the US never spoke of comspiracy!
Notice that here in France, nearly all people says: yes he certainly took drugs like all others so what importance!



Hi Madam Stephanie. You are indeed my fairygodmother. rofl
I knew you have the knack in spinning these around. Wala!

So. Lance is pressumed guilty until proven innocent? Is it like that in your "democracy world"? Oh, is this the Reign of Terror again? I think so. Here is a quote:


"The Tour de France believes that the results of the lab are 100 percent reliable. It's the best lab and a lab known for doing such testing," (yeah right) Matthieu Desplates, a press attache for the Tour de France, told CNN in a phone interview.

When organizers learned of the report, Desplates said, "Everyone felt betrayed."

L'Equipe's investigation was based on the second set of samples, called "B" samples, provided during the drug-testing procedure in 1999. The "A" samples no longer exist and Tour officials have said they cannot enforce any punishment without them. (If that is the case, WTF is this all about?)

Armstrong said he has dealt with "slimy" journalism from the French for the last seven years and "this is perhaps the worst of it." …..Armstrong noted that earlier this year, when he announced his retirement, that the same paper wrote, "Never has an athlete's retirement been so welcome." :roll:

He blasted critics who have said the evidence is clear, insisting it is nothing more than a case of he-said, she-said. (say so allegations and witch hunt)

"What else can it be?" Armstrong said. "Do you think I'm going to trust some guy in a French lab to open my samples and say they're positive and announce that to the world and not give me the chance to defend myself? That's ludicrous. There is no way you can do that."……

Armstrong also questioned the science behind years-old samples. He said he had provided a total of 17 "B" samples in 1999.

"So why are six of them positive and the other 11 aren't? I'm saying there were 17 samples. So, if the drug would stay around for two, three, four weeks, we have 17 samples given, and only six of them positive. What happened to the other 11?"……

Armstrong blasted the protocol used in the testing, saying how was he to trust a French person in a laboratory where no one else was present to observe the testing method. (where is the independent source? He does not trust them. Do you?)

"If you considered the science, if you consider the protocol involved in drug testing, if you consider the standards that have been set over dozens of years, you know that none of that was followed here," he told CNN.

"Since when did newspapers start governing sports?"

But there is no way of disputing the damage done when L'Equipe and company found him already guilty.

“Isn't it miraculous that there is no way to disprove the "indisputable" evidence since there is no more sample left to test?”

Damn, this is really a case of “well, you are guilty and I will tell the world about it. Sorry, you cannot examine the evidence and defend yourself and there is nothing you can do about it. The evidence, which is our possession, is gone (for whatever reason). Nevertheless, I still say you are guilty because my source is infallible. rofl

So, this is the way justice is done in the democracy wolrd. :lol:




btw it will be interresting to see the result of trials!


READ the articles because there was no trial to speak of in the first place! He was presumed guilty even before he even had the chance to explain himself!




Typical American reaction
They are the best, the worlds best country, far superior, home of the brave, yadda-yadda... if they're cought for cheating, the American propaganda medias start a campaign against the "evil Anti-American French/Europeans" who don't like the "good Americans". You shouldn't take them serious.

Excuse me? Nobody is jumping the gun here except L'Equipe and co. They have arrogated unto themselves the honorable role of judge, jury and Lynch mob into one. American propaganda media? I do not know how you do things there, but the so called American propaganda media at the very least, has the decency to ask lance to explain and defend himself because it is a fact that one of your media, has already declared that he lied. Go figure. p-)

[Deuterium]

That's funny how all Americans on here think that the french hated Greg Lemond and Lance Armstrong.



Typical American reaction :)
They are the best, the worlds best country, far superior, home of the brave, yadda-yadda... if they're cought for cheating, the American propaganda medias start a campaign against the "evil Anti-American French/Europeans" who don't like the "good Americans". You shouldn't take them serious.


Have you ever been to France before saying such bull**** ? Just don't post if you have no fvcking idea what you are talking about. Most french I know love both of these cyclist.

Quoted for truth.

Well that's a laugh. In the end it's about the sport of bicycling. Your average American couldn't care less. More Americans could tell you size of the restrictor plates at Talladega than the brand of bike Lance rode.

[RGRBOX]

Just a cpl points:
(note: i did not read the previous 6 pgs. so ,,,)

I was a Cat 1 USCF road cyclist for two years back in the Lemond days, I have trained and raced in europe.
IMHO: Europeans do not favor americans racing on their turf. Just the way it was and is. Perhaps the French are the worst at the "hate"or non-favorable "feelings". Just my opinion.
The other small point, which may be significant; there has not been a French winner of the Tour in 20 years. ( I think Greg broke the last occurance) so,,


BS! Greg Lemon was very popular here (more than his french opponent Laurent Fignon) because he was a nice guy! Amstrong lever smile and never be close to supporters!
Before his cancer Amstrong was nothing and after (under cortisone medicines) he won all run!! That is why since the beginning his under eyes!
And several persons from his own team accused him of dopage (and they are not french but americans)!
No doubt he took likes all cyclists! When you escape death (some are suspicious about his cancer) wins a tons of money and live after a fantastic life (maybe shorter) could be an explanation!
Dude, you know fvck all about Armstrong. He was headed to win the Tour no matter what. As for an athlete, the guy can kick most peoples asses in marathons and tri-athelons before he started in bycicle meets...

[RGRBOX]

One argument is "why after 6 years"
No worry, the 2005 sample are going to be tested in 6 years, in 2010, in 2050, anytime when new detection methodes are going to be found.
France said NO DOPING.
Those who don't understand that have to stay home or take the risk to get there cheating discovered anytime in the future.
I think now there is little doubt that L'Equipe's work is serious. Lance can sue whenever he wants.
Those who refuse to see the truth pretexting some supposed french anti americanism are just brainwashed morons.
This being said, even now, I think Lance is still respected and everybody know he is a great champion with a splendid mental.

X2

[Zarathustra]

Hi Madam Stephanie. You are indeed my fairygodmother..

Bluezoo, you lack any credibility... "lawyer". :roll: :roll: :roll:

[cut]

Hi Madam Stephanie. You are indeed my fairygodmother..

Bluezoo, you lack any credibility... "lawyer". :roll: :roll: :roll:

huh, I see what you mean, I'd never seen that before

[achilles]

One argument is "why after 6 years"
No worry, the 2005 sample are going to be tested in 6 years, in 2010, in 2050, anytime when new detection methodes are going to be found.
France said NO DOPING.
Those who don't understand that have to stay home or take the risk to get there cheating discovered anytime in the future.
I think now there is little doubt that L'Equipe's work is serious. Lance can sue whenever he wants.
Those who refuse to see the truth pretexting some supposed french anti americanism are just brainwashed morons.
This being said, even now, I think Lance is still respected and everybody know he is a great champion with a splendid mental.

Even if he had been dopped all along the way, that cannot change the very simple fact that he is one of the greatest cyclists in the history of the sport, simply because practically EVERYBODY is getting dopped. So he never had any significant comparative advantage even if he WAS dopped.
Wasnt it Yan Ulrich that was found to be positive just a couple of years ago? Any pro who has access to illegal substances and wants to be competitive just goes for it. Its sad but true and by all evidence this holds true for all sports.

I am sure L'Equipe knows all that better than any of us around here, so i cannot really say that i understand the newspaper's stance. Why 6 years later (and i dont think your answer on that is satisfactory Roland) and why blow the whistle right after his retirement? Didnt they know beforehand that that would spoil his reputation irrespective of what the verdict will be? There seem to be way too many coincidences here....

I am sure the French people dont have anything against him and i am not advocating what Bluezoolander is saying: that this is just another attempt from the crapy French journalism to bash America through hunting down Armstrong. But it takes no more than a ****head in a newspaper to post the wrong things, at the wrong time for a man who looked death in the eye, beat him, and became a super-athlete.

I really dont know L'Equipe's motives behind all this but this is certainly one dodgy story. Its sad that Armstrong has to go through all this at the peak of his career.

[Creeper]

Just a cpl points:
(note: i did not read the previous 6 pgs. so ,,,)

I was a Cat 1 USCF road cyclist for two years back in the Lemond days, I have trained and raced in europe.
IMHO: Europeans do not favor americans racing on their turf. Just the way it was and is. Perhaps the French are the worst at the "hate"or non-favorable "feelings". Just my opinion.
The other small point, which may be significant; there has not been a French winner of the Tour in 20 years. ( I think Greg broke the last occurance) so,,


BS! Greg Lemon was very popular here (more than his french opponent Laurent Fignon) because he was a nice guy! Amstrong lever smile and never be close to supporters!
Before his cancer Amstrong was nothing and after (under cortisone medicines) he won all run!! That is why since the beginning his under eyes!
And several persons from his own team accused him of dopage (and they are not french but americans)!
No doubt he took likes all cyclists! When you escape death (some are suspicious about his cancer) wins a tons of money and live after a fantastic life (maybe shorter) could be an explanation!

[Prometheus]

I am sure the French people dont have anything against him and i am not advocating what Bluezoolander is saying: that this is just another attempt from the crapy French journalism to bash America through hunting down Armstrong.

From my point of view it's just the other way arround. L'Equipe's article is serious, it's well investigated and as every news should be: unbiased. If you don't believe me, read the article!

The only thing I've heard from the American media is bashing the French for being "Anti-American liars" because they dare to publish their findings about an American hero. No arguments, no investigations, no journalism, just French-bashing. That's maybe the kind of nationalistic "journalism" the Americans want, but it's not the kind of journalism anyone with half a brain can take serious.

[Loco]

Before his cancer Amstrong was nothing and after (under cortisone medicines) he won all run!! That is why since the beginning his under eyes!

Before suffering cancer Armstrong had won the World Championship on the Road, I don´t know how it´s exactly translated into english the name of that one day race, but the fact it´s that he had been world champion, I remember that race well, he was a very young challenger and he defeated Miguel Indurain who was in the best age of a sportman. Clearly, Armstrong was becoming a favourite among the runners of his generation for winning the Tour. When Armstrong was ill, he was beginning the best age for a runner and you can be sure he lost at least two of his best two years in hospitals. What it´s hard to explain it´s that before being ill Armstrong was a class "rodador" or "rutero" as we say in Spain, very good in plain roads an competing in plain cronos, but in no way he was good climbing mountains. I realize that many people here don´t know too much about bycicles, so excuse me for the explanation, but the climbers in cyclism are the equivalent of the long distance runners in athletism(the 1mile, 1.500 meters, 5.000meters and marathon) and the "rodadores" are most like the 400meters and 800meters runners. There are the srpinters in cyclism too, equivalent to the 100 and 200meters runners, but they have too much muscle and few resistance for winning long distance races, a sprinter cylist can only win road races in plain territories when all the competitors arrive in a big group to the end of he race, because if a sprinter had to defend the meters of advantage he has over the rest of the runners when still there are 4 or 5 kilometers to the end, he won´t have enough resistance for winning.
A winner of a big cyclist race of three weeks like the Tour, or the Vuelta or Giro, usually is a runner with the profile of a "rutero" that has some quality climbing, or a climber that has some muscular strength over the average climber and is not bad in the plains. But never the best "rutero" can be the best climber, it´s phisically imposible. I can imagine Carl Lewis training very hard for running the 400meters and even being good in that race, but in no way I can ever dream Carl Lewis running the 1500 meters and being other thing that a bad long distance runner. The case with Armstrong is that he was a superb runner in plain roads, but after being ill Armstrong was the best climbing mountains. Other things that perhaps have not being enough considered is that Armstrong is the first champion that renounces to run any other big race than the Tour of France, so he maybe can accumulate more strenght reserves along the year for the three weeks of July. This same year Armstrong competed some short races before the Tour and he got mediocres results, but everybody knew he was saving strenght, contrary to many of his competitors. Personally, I feel sad as a cyclist aficionado with the behaviour of Armstrong just know. I considered him as one of the best runners ever, although one stept behind runners like Eddy Mercks, Indurain or Anquetil, but a very special one because the illness he suffered. He should have answered DAYS AGO to L´Equipe, and he still has to say anything. This is not a matter of frenchs bashing the good american boy. Cyclism has being under suspicioun since some years ago, and a team like Festina suffered a daily scandal. There´s too a bit of national pride and I can evit thinking that if frenchs are bored with the Tours won by Armstrong is because he isn´t french, and french shouldn´t forget that if the Tour is the best race is not because is run in France but because the best runners of the world run there. And it´s true that every country is more ready to uncover the scandals of foreing competitors than those of your own boys, but a famous french cyclist like Virenque was punished because doping, and an italian ace like Pantani who won both the Tour and the Giro was punished too for doping and he was so depressed that he even suicided. Both Virenque and Pantani coincided in the road with Armstrong, so if law was hard with them, the same must be with Armstrong. If you aren´t guilty you can´t be in silence like him since days ago.
Other thing than that is the behaviour of L´EQuipe and french executives. They could have filtrated the news about 99´s Armstrong doping just two months ago, but then posibly you´d have and scandal just before the beginning of the Tour, very possibly Armstrong would have left the competition and come back to Texas and the Tour would have lost lots of of money in Tv´advertsments. The executives were miserables here.
And american boys shouldn´t say nonsense about doping in Europe before knowing what they have at home. All NBA players with at least two years competing there suffer a muscular metamorphosis that only can be explained with the use of steroids, not to speak of the american football players. And you all remember Florence Griffith, she clearly had ingered steroids for competing in Seoul´88 and looked more like a monster than like a woman, but she wasn´t punished contrary to Ben Johnson, maybe because she was american.

[achilles]

From my point of view it's just the other way arround. L'Equipe's article is serious, it's well investigated and as every news should be: unbiased. If you don't believe me, read the article! .

I will do so. I didnt say that L'Equipe's article is crap, Prometheus (love your username), but i have yet to see a satisfactory answer as to why they exposed the story 6 years later, right after Armstrong retired. It is hard for me to digest that this is just a coincidence, or that the illegal-substance detecting technology managed to track down Armstrong's dope 6 year later, just because dope is always more than one step ahead from the control mechanisms.


The only thing I've heard from the American media is bashing the French for being "Anti-American liars" because they dare to publish their findings about an American hero. No arguments, no investigations, no journalism, just French-bashing. That's maybe the kind of nationalistic "journalism" the Americans want, but it's not the kind of journalism anyone with half a brain can take serious


The fact that the no so impartial right wing media (among others) became suddenly hysteric is no surprise at all. A trully pathetic reaction...

It sill seems to me though that a bunch of people wanted to spoil Armstrong's reputation, irrespective of the fact that the French people actually love the guy, and too many of them rushed into defending him.
Of course i might be wrong....

[RGRBOX]

I am sure the French people dont have anything against him and i am not advocating what Bluezoolander is saying: that this is just another attempt from the crapy French journalism to bash America through hunting down Armstrong.

From my point of view it's just the other way arround. L'Equipe's article is serious, it's well investigated and as every news should be: unbiased. If you don't believe me, read the article!

The only thing I've heard from the American media is bashing the French for being "Anti-American liars" because they dare to publish their findings about an American hero. No arguments, no investigations, no journalism, just French-bashing. That's maybe the kind of nationalistic "journalism" the Americans want, but it's not the kind of journalism anyone with half a brain can take serious.

Your right... the media is making this a big deal.. but there is no news paper that can be trusted... jounalist want to be heard.. and a lot of them will get anything printed... you and I both know, that little truth has to be printed to cause an uproar... look at the article from Newsweek about GITMO.. even though they took back the article, this story still caused a lot of problems... first thig I learned as a history student, is 50% of what you read is Bull, and the other 50% you have to take with a grain of salt... these people need a story, so like a lot of news papes, they made up one... And without any proof...

[1Cie GevGn]

I read the article myself. Even though I also mistrust media in general, this seemed to be well build with good sources and quite alot of evidence.

As far as doping is concerned, I feel that if a sportsman is caught, he should be banned from practising pro sports for the rest of his life. If the best they can do is "but they ALL do it", well screw them. No matter how you look at it, call it what it is; CHEATING!

I live in Belgium, cycling is big here. Think about all those kids who do it as a hobby, supported (persuaded) by dad. Some make it into the semi pro circuit. What happens then? They have to take drugs to be able to keep up with the leader of their team. Nice start for those kids in a "healthy" sport.

I say more tests, and throw out all those shady "soigneurs" :bash: And for me, Armstrong should give back all the money he earned. The only way you can hurt them, in their wallets.

[RGRBOX]

I read the article myself. Even though I also mistrust media in general, this seemed to be well build with good sources and quite alot of evidence.

As far as doping is concerned, I feel that if a sportsman is caught, he should be banned from practising pro sports for the rest of his life. If the best they can do is "but they ALL do it", well screw them. No matter how you look at it, call it what it is; CHEATING!

I live in Belgium, cycling is big here. Think about all those kids who do it as a hobby, supported (persuaded) by dad. Some make it into the semi pro circuit. What happens then? They have to take drugs to be able to keep up with the leader of their team. Nice start for those kids in a "healthy" sport.

I say more tests, and throw out all those shady "soigneurs" :bash: And for me, Armstrong should give back all the money he earned. The only way you can hurt them, in their wallets.
I agree with you on being banded for life for cheating... if your caught then goodbye... as for this example being relistic of the situation, it's a little strang to me that one test is hot, but all of the ones after aren't hot... I'm sure that these guys are dopping... and the ones that do should have to pay... and I mean big...

[AROUETLJ]

If he did use doping, then at least it would make him human. And that's a point in his favour.

[RGRBOX]

If he did use doping, then at least it would make him human. And that's a point in his favour.

It does seem unhuman to win as often as he did. But I don't remember too many people questioning Durand when he was winning.

[AROUETLJ]

That's the problem with today's athletes. How can you have Superman as a role model? Remember when Paula Radcliffe dropped out of the marathon in the Athens Olympics? I think it was one of the best moments in the whole Games. For the first time we see an athlete failing. And that's what most of us do. We fail, so we never reach Olympic level. It's good to see an athlete dropping down to our level from time to time. I'm not referring to Armstrong specifically, since we must assume he's innocent until proven guilty.

P.S. Don't tell me he got there by hard training. A heartrate of 32/34 bpm is not due to training, but genetics. Same thing with these two-metre basketball giants.

I've gone out of point now.

[Creeper]

Creeper wrote:

"Before his cancer Amstrong was nothing and after (under cortisone medicines) he won all run!! That is why since the beginning his under eyes! "

FYI: This is NOT my writing. My entry mistake somewhere, LOL> my
Irish-English is better that what is above ^^

Plez reveiw my prevouis post regarding this subject, TY.

[Zarathustra]

French fans come to Armstrong's defense :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050827/ap_on_sp_ot/cyc_armstrong_french_fans

Are you still going to tell me that the French hate Lance ? :roll:

[derkrieger]

Not the fans , but the sports world in cycling in France and in Europe in general as far as i can observe do hate him !!!

[latino773]

Bluezoo!!!! stop making stupid and retarded POST!!!!! :bash:

[Bluezoo]

Bluezoo!!!! stop making stupid and retarded POST!!!!! :bash:
Excuse me? I don't need to get a bill of particulars to go far with you who just came barging this late. STFU!

[stephane from Paris]

Not the fans , but the sports world in cycling in France and in Europe in general as far as i can observe do hate him !!!

Certainly not hate! But i thinks that most of europeans medias don't like him because he is (was) not pleasant, friendly and in every sports Champions who never smile aren't popular! No link with his nationality! Wasn't Karl Lewis who was dislike by US medias and public???

[Creeper]

Not the fans , but the sports world in cycling in France and in Europe in general as far as i can observe do hate him !!!

Certainly not hate! But i thinks that most of europeans medias don't like him because he is (was) not pleasant, friendly and in every sports Champions who never smile aren't popular! No link with his nationality! Wasn't Karl Lewis who was dislike by US medias and public???
Karl was well liked while he competed, review his history.

I go back to when I trained/raced in europe- we did not receive happy faces from the french-dutch-or flemish-we were american Joes treading on their turf.
I'll say this again- There are some French citzens that like Lance and some that do not lance. Simple-isn't, but it has been 20 years since a french rider or a team can not win The Tour- You have to say WTF !!!!!!!!!
Screw the Tour Sportif -
Screw the French Media-
Screw the Testing-
I'll be back to tell you when to stop.

[latino773]

Bluezoo!!!! stop making stupid and retarded POST!!!!! :bash:
Excuse me? I don't need to get a bill of particulars to go far with you who just came barging this late. STFU!

mmmm? well i did came late.. but!! i have seen your post;s ..old ones and new ones.. i have been trying to get a profile and now that i have it..i can use it,,
and its better late then never... :fork:

[Zorro C9]

The problem is, is that cycling is so full of drugs in the first place. Can a "normal" athlete really beat the drug cheats so many times?

[Bluezoo]

Bluezoo!!!! stop making stupid and retarded POST!!!!! :bash:
Excuse me? I don't need to get a bill of particulars to go far with you who just came barging this late. STFU!

mmmm? well i did came late.. but!! i have seen your post;s ..old ones and new ones.. i have been trying to get a profile and now that i have it..i can use it,,
and its better late then never... :fork:

Woooooo, ok then, bring it on. Late, but still lame, punk. rofl So far, you have only succeeded in showing that you want to start a flame, but I have yet to hear your point or worthy contribution in this thread. Otherwise, get lost troll.

[lunny]

Bluezoo!!!! stop making stupid and retarded POST!!!!! :bash:
Excuse me? I don't need to get a bill of particulars to go far with you who just came barging this late. STFU!

mmmm? well i did came late.. but!! i have seen your post;s ..old ones and new ones.. i have been trying to get a profile and now that i have it..i can use it,,
and its better late then never... :fork:

Woooooo, ok then, bring it on. Late, but still lame, punk. rofl So far, you have only succeeded in showing that you want to start a flame, but I have yet to hear your point or worthy contribution in this thread. Otherwise, get lost troll.

stop fighting guys..

[RGRBOX]

The problem is, is that cycling is so full of drugs in the first place. Can a "normal" athlete really beat the drug cheats so many times?

Nowdays anything is possible.. but with technology the way it is, I would find it hard to do..