Israeli Special Ops

[Mal3]

Now, outfits like the SAS, Delta and SEALs for example have a, what shall we call it, fan base?

Obviously any Israeli SpecOps units would have a LOT of experience but probably even more controversial than the SAS for example (just try proclaiming your admiration of the 22 Regiment SAS to a catholic from N-Ireland...). However, I'm curious, how do the Isreali units comparable to the aformentioned units rate? I'm hardly an expert but I'd think SAS, SBS, Delta for example could be regarded as being of the highest caliber (I'm sure I'm leaving very good units out, I just think these are the best of the units I know anything about, what little that may be). How would the Israelis rate against these?

I know there's a lot of different Israeli Special units, but I'm referring to any that would be corresponding to aforementioned units.

[Trigger]

check it out:
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/guide.htm

[Mal3]

Been there, but of course! ;)

I just wanted some objective comparisons if possible.

[96B]

Well I am not sure but I think as with all the units the SAS originally trained them when they were created, I think.... Anyways there is always arguements and pissing contests on whether or not CAG or SAS is better but nobody really ever brings in the Israelis. I personally believe DEVGRU is right up there with CAG and love both of them but I think that it is safe to say that the Israelis probably have more operational experience more often than anybody else. People get blown up literally like every day over there and I am sure they are hard at work all the time on missions and assignments so I would say they definately rate up there with SAS and CAG.

No matter what anybody says though, the SAS probably has the most fans and for more than one reason. There are some out there whom are the ones I respect that are not ignorant and immature who actually realize that all of these units are very good at what they do and most of their missions go unreported. I believe that the SAS has by far the most publicly available information (books, pictures, other literature) than Delta or DEVGRU and especially the Israelis. Now obviously the majority of their missions are like top secret but I am just saying that one can find much more pictures and information and stories on the SAS than the others, thus they are more likeable because nobody really knows anything about the others. There are very limited books that have good info on Delta and VERY few pictures that are confirmed Delta and their missions are like totally unknown and when you hear about their missions its the mishaps like Gothic Serpant or Desert One, so some may automatically assume they are not as good as the others.

[Mal3]

Pardon my ignorance, but what does CAG stand for? US SpecOps has become a huge thing with so many units, I could hardly keep up if I wanted. Good thing I'm an anglophile, keeps it relatively simple for me ;)

[96B]

CAG = Combat Applications Group = Delta woot

[Mal3]

Ah, thank you! I though it was Operational Detachment Delta. Is that a bogus designation?

[96B]

No problem man, if you could call it the "official" name its 1st SFOD-D, CAG is just another name for it but I think its the more modern day name for Delta. Dreaded D is another nickname talked about in Black Hawk Down the book.

[Mal3]

Do you know what the guys in it refer to it as?

I used to have a rather low opinion of Delta, probably wrongly due to Operation Eagle Claw. Reading BHD and other stuff has convinced me these are guys nobody wants to have on their bad side...

Black Hawk Down showed one of the most important things for soldiers like these in Delta is mindset. One of the guys who went into the Princess Gate Embassy described what they were thinking when they went in and later the Delta guy interviewed for BHD says pretty much the same. Different words, different accent, but the thinking was pretty much the same.

Once I considered trying for joining some military service. With hindsight, I should have tried. I would never have made it into a SpecOp unit, I don't think I got what it takes (not putting myself down, just being realistic, it wouldn't be my forte ;) ) but a few years of service would have done me good probably...

[96B]

The actual shooters would most likely simply refer to it as "the unit" and nothing more, kind of like a CIA operator would probably refer to it as "the agency"

In my book, everybody who makes it into the military despite the service and has joined with good intentions and not just because they didnt have anything else better to do is a hero. It takes a certain kind of person to dedicate themselves to their countries service and I think that it makes you a better person and teaches many things aside from physical fitness and discipline.

[Mal3]

I would have had to weasel my way into a foreign military since there is nothing local I could join. Unless you want to count a coast guard like operation and a state police SRT (I know the latter is damn good, but I've no interest in being in the police nor the SRT, the former used to be good around the 70s at least as any Royal Navy type would probably testify to).

Personally I think one of the more disgusting bromide was JFK's words "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

I do things for selfish reason, I respect people who volunteer for military duty, whatever their reasons as long as they aspire to do their job well. For the most part anyway.

[...]

The British SAS trained the Israeli Special Forces? I think you need to do a little more homework on Israel in the late 1940's and who the Haganah was fighting. Maybe later there was some cross-training but I am pretty sure the British military was teaching nothing to the Israeli's early on.

[Mal3]

Could it be that Jewish OSS or SOE (never remember which were Brits and which Yanks) personell might have joined the new Israelis at that time?

[96B]

Like I said, I think.... The SAS trained most of the major counter terror units around the world when they were first created but I was not sure about the Israelis.

[Sulph8]

I believe that initially Israeli units did receive training from foreign units but then due to the constant flow of military action they developed their own styles and tactics and stuff. For example, in the 50s Shayetet 13 (naval commandos) were trained by the British SBS and French Commando Hubert. But today S13 have done over 1000 missions, are sharp as ever, and do joint training with US S.E.A.Ls.

Another example is with the Israeli CT capability. Before the 70s their CT capability wasnt advanced. Then during the 70s there was a huge rise in terrorism and thus the Israeli government decided to heavily increase the military's CT capability. So the Israeli CT units were initially trained by SAS and Delta, and then like in the case of S13 they went on to get a huge amount of experience and develop their own styles.

Alot of people want to know which units are the best in the world. But I don't think it should be looked at that way because I believe that all the different units have their specialties. For example, one of Sayeret Matkal's main specialties is taking over nuclear weapons and installations (since Israel has been worried about this sort of problem for quite a while). Anyway, sometime after the 911 attacks, Sayeret Matkal went and trained with the US Delta to increase their nuke taking capability due to the US government's concern that Pakistan's nuclear weapons could fall into terrorist hands and they wanted Delta to be able to respond.

Now I am not too familiar with US Spec ops so I don't know what their specialties are but the point is that all the units we're discussing here are all elite and theres no point trying to figure which one is best. This is not just my opinion, I know someone from Sayeret Matkal and he has enlightened me on the subject.

[JohnJohn]

errr... wasn't former Israeli prime minister Barak a senior member of MOSAD?

I remember an assasination of one of those terrorists involved in the 1972 murder of the Israeli Olympic team in Berlin that MOSAD carried out in Lebanon in which some of the members had to dress like women in order to look like tourist couples. On the way out, they had a firefight with police.

I guess it must have been something else to be in a firefight with commandos dressed like women rofl

[Sulph8]

No your right it was Ehud Barak, but he wasnt in Mossad, it was Sayeret Matkal that executed that operation, called operation Spring of Youth.
You can read about it at:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/opspring.html

[JohnJohn]

thanks, I always get those details mixed ;)

[Mal3]

Sulph8: I think you got a point. We can discuss who's best all night and still be none the wiser. I was just interested in knowing the capabilities and quality of Israeli units by having them compared with units I do have some idea of.

[Sulph8]

Well yeah they're right up there with SAS, Delta, etc. The main difference is financial. SAS and Delta have pretty much unlimited money so they can get whatever stuff they want. Israeli spec ops have good gear but could use some extra cash.

[Mal3]

SAS doesn't seem quite as well financially endowed as Delta, etc. But still, they seem to get most of what they need at least...

[Scrim]

Israel has one of the largest SF, they are certainly well trained and experienced, just think of the legandary Entebbe rescue, but something to bear in mind, with few exceptions they are made up of conscripts serving their mandatory 36 month military service. Most SF training is for 20 tough months, but after this they only have 16 months left on active duty. Now I'm sure there are groups out there we've never heard of or seen that have older more experienced operators, but for most of their SF, not many soldiers actually serve more than their 16 months.

[FallenAngel]

The Israelis also have "non-military" special forces. They are alot like SWAT teams on steriods :)

Actually, what I heard is that most SF in Israel are the ones who serve more than their 3 year conscription BECAUSE the training takes so long.

Also, in Israel....the title "Sniper" actually means you are a pathetic loser who couldn't hack it in a real infantry unit....or something like that. :D

[Mal3]

That might keep them down indeed...

However, the Entebbe rescue really wasnðt conducted by Special Forces per se, just selected eite infantry?

[Scrim]

Yeah, I think its the special branches of the police who are the ones to watch out for.
Would you serve more than 3 years in a combat zone for ****e pay? Not unless you had a screw loose. ;)

[Mal3]

Or of the mentality of some SpecOps types p-)

[Scrim]

True, one and the same.

[citizen-k]

Netanyahu was in Sayeret Matkal as well. (not as the commander thought)
His older brother, Yoni Netanyahu, was the commander of Sayeret Matkal during the "Antebe operation" where the IDF rescued the kiddnapped people from the french air plane. Yoni was the only soldior who was killed during that operation.

[citizen-k]

their course is very short and they are not "usefull" for real war acourding to the IDF's war plans.
Today they are used in gaza so they "look" better....

most SF soldiors server longer then 36 month (pilots, navy seals etc)

[ArmoredDov_D9]

Don't forget the SF are also called to do reserved duty.

Beside of military CT units - there is also the civilian YAMAM ("Special Police Unit" or "The Unit for Special Operation") which the equvilent of SWAT teams. The YAMAM is an expert of CT operations and hostages-resuce operations.
There is also the civilian YASAM ("Special Scout Unit") who specilized in disolving riots.

As for snipers - for years the IDF snipers where had bad reputation but during the last decade there was great improvment in their performence.
More over, the IDF developed the role of a Desginated Marskman (KALA SAAR) who can suply medium-long ranged accurate rapid firepower.

[StarvingStudent47]

If you want a story to prove how badass Sayeret Matkal is (one of the Israeli SF groups), just read up on the Entebbe Hijacking. I'm not going to play the game of "Sayeret Matkal is better than SAS is better than Delta", but it definitely places Israeli SF in the same "top tier" that Delta and the SAS are in.

I don't know the details of Israeli SF organization--I'm a civilian, and an American at that--but yes, there IS some serious name recognition and prestige associated with Israeli SF.

[StarvingStudent47]

However, the Entebbe rescue really wasnðt conducted by Special Forces per se, just selected eite infantry?

According to Herman Wouk's The Glory, Sayeret Matkal stormed the building and rescued the hostages while non-SF elite infantry controlled the airfield against any counter-attack.

[Gordon]

Israel has one of the largest SF, they are certainly well trained and experienced, just think of the legandary Entebbe rescue, but something to bear in mind, with few exceptions they are made up of conscripts serving their mandatory 36 month military service. Most SF training is for 20 tough months, but after this they only have 16 months left on active duty. Now I'm sure there are groups out there we've never heard of or seen that have older more experienced operators, but for most of their SF, not many soldiers actually serve more than their 16 months.

As someone already mentioned I've heard that the Israeli SF guys are the ones who are in for the long term, ie. professional soldiers. Just because Israel has conscription it doesn't mean that everybody who's in the army is in it because they have to be.

[citizen-k]

SF units are for volunteers only (not only they agree to go through what they are going - they also agree to serve longer)

Usually the volunteers sign up during high school and they are being sorted acourding to their physical and mental condition.
some units (Matkal, S13) have field days during the last school year where they sort out the best...

pilots need to go through 4 days "field trip" during high school just to be marked as candidates - after that they go through psychological exams.