Rent-a-submarine, strategic bomber, etc.

[Russian Texan]

NEW DELHI, JANUARY 19:
India and Russia will hold discussions on the leasing of an Akula-class nuclear submarine as well as Tupolev long-range strategic bombers and sign an agreement for the acquisition of Admiral Gorshkov during the three-day visit of Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov.

On his arrival today, Ivanov said Russia was keen on joint production of ‘‘futuristic weapons systems’’ with India. According to him, Russia is ‘‘ready even for involvement of third parties’’.

It is understood while the Indian Navy has been keen on two Akula-class submarines, the Russians have indicated they will be able to supply just one. This had been conveyed to the Indian delegation during the visit of Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee. With the decks cleared for Gorshkov, India is set to hold talks on the Akula and the Tu-22m strategic bomber, said sources.



The leasing of the Akula-class submarines comes more than a decade after the first Charlie-I class nuclear submarine which was also leased from Russia in the late 1980s. India acquired the submarine on lease to give shape to its plans for building an indigenous nuclear submarine, known as the Advanced Technology Project.

With delays in the programme, the Indian Navy is keen to take on the Akula-class which is considered one of the most advanced submarines.

Meanwhile, an agreement comprising 20 contracts for acquiring the 44,000-tonne Admiral Gorshkov is likely to be signed during the visit. According to Defence Ministry officials, the deal will include a complete refit of the carrier along with 28 MiG-29K and six Kamov helicopters.

Ivanov also assured that adequate infrastructure for supply of spares and contractual obligations would be created to meet India’s needs.

"Admiral Gorshkov"/"Baku" in addition to variety of anti ship and AA missiles can be home to 16 Yak 41M VTOL multirole fighters
http://weapons.0golf.com/aircraft/yak141.jpg
http://weapons.0golf.com/aircraft/yak141s.jpg

12 SU 33
http://www.bearcraft-online.com/museum/photos/b.67.1.jpg

About 18 different helicopters
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/baku-DNST8902308.JPG

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/kiev-DNSN8307128.JPG
http://www.airforce.ru/aircraft/miscellaneous/carriers/Baky.jpg

Now for the fun part
Akula class submarines, I believe those come with "Shkval" 230 mph missiles/torpedoes
http://submarine.id.ru/galery/t92.jpg

Tu 22M, these ones can carry pretty much anything, including nuclear weapons

http://www.bearcraft-online.com/museum/photos/b.81.0.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/planes/tu22m01.jpg

When you put all of those together, it looks like India is renting itself pretty nice "strike" group. The question is: "What is Pakistan going to do now?"

[anonymous individual]

Interesting post.

[Whistler]

Sucks to be Pakistan...

[Haiw]

Are they gonna 'rent' nuclear ICBMs as well? :)

[Russian Texan]

Are they gonna 'rent' nuclear ICBMs as well? :)

Depends if next year's budget will be short or not :)

In addition to the original post:
Actually that aircraft carrier/missile cruiser will be complemented by 28 Mig 29K and not by Yak 41M.
I don't think Yakovlev's bureau is making 41M anymore but, an interesting thing, I have read an article where it stated that some people who worked on it were hired by "Lockheed Martin" to work on JSF.

Overall situation is kinda interesting because you have got three competing powers: China, India and Pakistan and Russia sells weapons to all of them. Pakistan seems to be worried the most because it has the most outdated weaponary. I just wonder what is going to happen next, I mean something has to happen before the lease on that stuff expires :)

[venture160]

very interesting, maybe India will get a full functioning AirCraft Carrier before China, that would be an embarassment to them. Either way, this sort of regional arms war seems to be escalating, and overall its going to give these countries more regional power and pursuasion, which could give the US some trouble down the road, although crappy russian ships with outdated technology is no match for the US Navy

[AFACadet]

I don't think Yakovlev's bureau is making 41M anymore but, an interesting thing, I have read an article where it stated that some people who worked on it were hired by "Lockheed Martin" to work on JSF.

No, Yak never built more than two or three Yak-41s, and most--if not all--crashed a few years back.

Yes, Yak sold the plans to LM a couple years ago.

[Merik]

I can just imagine it now...Apu busting out with a long range bomber saying "Thank you come again!"

[Russian Texan]

Total of 5 were built but the project was canceled back in '95.

I do think that aircraft carriers are the thing of the past. In a full scale modern war they are just too vulnerable from both air and surface/sub surface.
Although they are quite useful in "local" conflicts or against countries that have no reliable means of attacking carrier group.

[Truthsayer]

India is also awaiting another delivery of the worlds best artillery-system, 800 units of the updated art77b (not sure what the international label is) from Bofors.

Here is the most interesting part: Since pakistan has made several strike-downs on muslim groups to please the americans and india is full of 'hippies' (religion: Hinduism), in an event of a full out war, what side would the americans help?

1. Pakistans, to make sure the goverment isn't overthrown by the militant muslim groups in the country.
2. India, since they 'aren't muslims'
3. Neither, since they have no nothing the americans need.

[Russian Texan]

although crappy russian ships with outdated technology is no match for the US Navy

They are not doing it because of US, they are doing it because of the "regional dominance" issue. There are four countries in that part of the world: China, Iran, India and Pakistan that are on a collision course. At some point in 21st century some of them are bound to clash one way or another...

BTW, why outdated?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Gorshkov3.jpg

It has entered service in 1988 and retired almost right a way due to the USSR break up so it is almost brand new, besides it has been just refitted/upgraded according to Indian specifications. Unfortunately, based on the picture, it had to trade off missile armament for some extra runway.

IMHO something like "Kiev Class" is the ultimate ship. It combines qualities/capabilities of a missile cruiser with those of an aircraft carrier, what else do you want?
Combine that with something like "project 971" and you have got yourself a "winning/deadly combination".

[venture160]

Russian Texan, I didn't mean to infer that India was trying to even to compete with the United States, I meant in the grand scheme of things, An Aegis equipped battle fleet would dominate 1980's Russian Technology.

In terms of technology, What equivelent of the aegis system do russian ships have? I know they have the almost unstoppable SS-N-22 Sunburn anti shi missle, which flies at a speed three times faster than the harpoon. Which give a ship little under 1 minute to respond, compared to 2-3 minutes with missles like the slower exocet. I wonder if the Russian Carrier being lent to India carries these weapons or if they already have them in their arsenal. I know China was given them with the delivery of the missle cruisers last year from Russia.

[martinexsquaddie]

but the keiv class had those really crappy Vtol fighters that would'nt even be a match for a harrier os why bother?

[Helly]

but the keiv class had those really crappy Vtol fighters that would'nt even be a match for a harrier os why bother?

India is having the Admiral Gorshkov refitted to make it a full-size carrier, and it will be carrying MiG-29K Fulcrums, not VTOL fighters.

[UoUo]

Go india !!

India also just bought the "Falcon" from israel....and the "barak"...and few More nice toys...

[Javehn]

India signed a deal over "Admiral Gorshkov" , over 1.5 billion dollars . This deal includes also selling of 28 Mig-29K fighters , and 6 Anti-Sub helicopters Kamov 28/31. Russia was furios about the fact , that they wanted to sell Kashtan missiles system , while India wanted to put Israeli made Barak missiles , and French Aster .

The Indians also would purchase replacement parts for the Migs , and the tanks .

[cut]

very interesting, maybe India will get a full functioning AirCraft Carrier before China, that would be an embarassment to them. Either way, this sort of regional arms war seems to be escalating, and overall its going to give these countries more regional power and pursuasion, which could give the US some trouble down the road, although crappy russian ships with outdated technology is no match for the US Navy

india have had aircraft carriers for years, I saw one anchored in bombay harbour, although tp be fair that might have been a museum

[Russian Texan]

From what I have read, all of the missiles will be removed in favor of a ski jump.

Admiral Gorshkov to cost India $1.68 billion

Josy Joseph in New Delhi |
January 20, 2004 10:06 IST


India and Russia would put their official seal of approval for the refit of Admiral Gorskhov besides new fighters and helicopters for the aircraft carrier during the visit of Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov beginning Tuesday.

Ivanov will meet his Indian counterpart George Fernandes on Tuesday and impart the final approval for the deal.

Senior officials from both sides will also sign an inter-governmental agreement, under preparation for several months now, during the meeting.

Sources in the Indian Navy said the deal is worth $1.68 billion, which includes the entire refit of Admiral Gorskhov and 28 MIG-29K fighter and six Kamov helicopters to be stationed on the 44,000-ton aircraft carrier.

The ship's engine room was partially gutted in a fire in the mid-90s. It was decommissioned over a decade back as part of a massive scaling back of the military capabilities of Russia after communism collapsed.

The Cabinet Committee on Security on Saturday gave Fernandes the go-ahead for signing the agreement during Ivanov's visit. Officials said the agreement ensures that 'future supplies, spare-parts and other technical support do not suffer as it has happened in the past'.

The nitty-gritty of the contract was worked out over several months of negotiations by a team of officials from Naval Headquarters who 'went over our mistakes from past Russian contracts', said a naval officer.

India and Russia took a long time to finalise the contract owing to disagreements over price.

Russians were demanding $800 million for the refit of the Kiev Class carrier while India was ready to fork out $600 million. According to sources, the final amount the two sides settled on is around $675 million.

Similar differences cropped up over the cost of the MIG-29K with India at one stage even threatening to negotiate with French firms for their aircraft. However, ultimately the two sides agreed to a deal that was intricately linked to several other major defence deals between them.

A couple of years back, India wanted to lease two nuclear submarines and long range TU-22 bombers. The Russians refused to negotiate any major deal without clearing the one on Gorshkov.

Russians trapped the Indians early in the negotiations by offering to 'gift' away the carrier and asking the latter to pay only for the overhaul of the carrier. India took the bait without realizing that Russians were quoting an exorbitant price for the overhaul.

As the negotiations went on, the Indian Navy was reduced to a single aircraft carrier INS Viraat. In the wake of 9/11, the Indian Ocean overnight became a critically important ocean and in all possibility the theatre for future strategic interests of global powers.

INS Viraat has hardly a decade of service left while India's indigenously-built aircraft carrier, the Air Defence Ship, would not be ready before 2010. Staring at the spectre of a shrinking strategic naval reach, the government was forced to complete the deal at the earliest.

But, according to a senior naval officer, even the refurbished Gorshkov would not be ready for another four years.

Here is the confusing detail: while some sites say it has already been reffited, others say it won't be operational until 2008.
Although I have learned that in the last couple of years Russia has sold and delivered to India 3 "Krivak III" guided missile frigates

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Talwar20.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Talwar13.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Talwar.html


As for "sunburn", it seems that only China has those (they came with "Sovremenny" class destrouers)

China announced it would purchase two more Russian-made Sovremenny-class destroyers. The purchase for the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) adds to the two operational Sovremenny destroyers, the Hangzhou and the Fuzhou, delivered to China in 1999 and 2000.

The Chinese warship purchase adds to a growing list of weapons sold to the PRC by Russia over the past 12 months. According to Itar-Tass, the Russian news agency, the two 956-M warships will incorporate new weapons, including a dedicated helicopter, SA-N-10 surface-to-air missiles, SS-N-22 Sunburn missiles and the newly developed SS-N-26 Yahont missile.

Unlike the Hangzhou and Fuzhou, which were assembled on hulls laid before the fall of the Soviet Union, the two destroyers will be new warships. The warships, designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau, are to be constructed from new hulls by the Northern Shipyard company located in St. Petersburg.

"Russian designers have managed to significantly improve combat performance of all weapons to be installed on the destroyers," stated Vladimir Yukhnin, head designer at Severnoye.

In 1996, the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy negotiated to buy the 956A destroyer Yekaterinburg and another 956A class destroyer named the Alexandr Nevskiy. The Yekaterinburg was delivered to the Chinese navy in 1999 as the Hangzhou, passing through the Strait of Taiwan with a combined Russian/Chinese crew. The Alexandr Nevskiy was delivered as the Fuzhou to the Chinese navy in November 2000.

Each Sovremenny warship is armed with eight supersonic 3M82 Moskit sea-skimming missiles, NATO code-name SS-N-22 "Sunburn." According to documents obtained from the U.S. Navy using the Freedom of Information Act, the Sunburn supersonic missile can be armed with a nuclear warhead 10 times the power of the atomic bomb used on Hiroshima.

India has opted for "Yakhont"

Designed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya, the Yakhont ASCM (Anti-Ship Missile) meets all principal requirements to anti-ship missiles of the fourth generation - low weight and dimensions (eight missiles can be placed in the hull of a slightly modernized Amur Class sub, or it can replace four P-15 Termit [SS-N-2a Styx] anti-ship missiles), employs stealth technology, has supersonic flight speed and a completely independent guidance system based on the fire-and-forget concept. The missile is 8.9 meters (29.1 feet) in length. It can be launched from ships, aircraft, submarines, or even ground mobile launchers and is fired from a unified encapsulated ampoule - shaped transporter - launching container. Flight speed is at Mach 2.0+, using a kerosene liquid-fuel ramjet, with a terminal run at Mach 2.5.

Range is at 300 km in a hi-lo profile or at 120 km at altitudes of 5-15 metres, in a lo-lo profile. A regular mid-course phase of the flight occurs at 15 km. If and when launched from submarines, the vessel must be fitted with 650mm torpedo tubes. An operational missile designed for hitting complex sea-based and in-shore targets, a vessel armed with the Yakhount can carry out combat operations against warships or even against carrier battle groups. Yakhont's navigation system uses an inertial guidance system based on the present target location data. At a pre-calculated flight point (around 25 - 80 km), a brief turn-on of the homing scanner occurs, resulting in exact determination of target location. After that, the homing system turns on only when the Yakhont leaves the radio horizon and drops its altitude to 5 - 15 metres, i.e. a few seconds before hitting the target. It carries a 250 kg (553 lbs.) warhead.
The missile's designers assume, that the enemy would detect the launch of the missile at the distance of 300 km and take measures to destroy it. However, being resistant to jamming, having the flight velocity of 750 m/s and making complex maneuvers during flight, the Yakhont ASCM shall anyway reach the target. It is not the high speed or jamming protection that makes Yakhont an advanced weapon system. It's major advantage, not too much advertised by NPO Mashinostroyeniya representatives, is the guidance system which has accumulated all the NPO experience in developing electronic systems of AI (Artificial Intelligence) enabling to fight against single warships (one missile - one ship) or even against a group of warships (a flock against a group).

It is salvo launching that shows all unsurpassed tactical capabilities of the Russian weapon. The missiles allocate and range targets by their importance and choose the attack implementation plan. The independent control system keeps in memory not only of the ECM (Electronic Countermeasures) and ECCM (Electronic Counter-Countermeasures) data, but also the methods of evading the fire of the enemy's air defense systems such as the US' Phalanx CIWS (Close-In Weapon System). Having destroyed the main target in a carrier group, the missiles left attack other ships of the carrier group, eliminating the possibility of using two missiles on one target.

[martinexsquaddie]

so it has a full runway and loses the missile tubes
just becomes another normal carrier
great so while the Nato and russia have given up planning to fight WW111
india pakistan and china have decided to take up the slack
indias a democracy though the BJP would love to change that:)
the others well lets just not go there :(.
would'nt plan on sailing round the indian ocean in the next few years :(

[venture160]

would'nt plan on sailing round the indian ocean in the next few years

Well I wouldnt worry about it too much, you have to look at the big picture. A single carrier and a few fighters is no going to make much of a difference, when almost half of Indias fleet is aging and not even sea worthy according to a recent RAND report. India has a wester and eastern fleet. As you would have guessed, Indias newer ships are stationed in the wester fleet, close to pakistan, and its eastern fleet is primarily made out of crappy old eastern bloc ships. Don't forget we have an entire carrier battle group almost always stationed in the Indian Ocean, and even more at Diego Garcia.

India currently has in its inventory:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Pauk3.jpg
4 ABHAY {PAUK II} CLASS Corvettes which is based on mid 1980's naval technology and carries 4 (SA-N-5) missiles

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Leander7.jpg
5 Nilgiri {Leander} Class Frigates, built in the mid 70's these ships have decent asw capability and topredo and cannon weapon systems

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Petya1.jpg
3 Petya II Class Frigates a little older than the Nilgiri class with less capable weapon systems

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Tarantul4.jpg
13 Veer {Tarantul I} Class Guided Missle Corvettes built in the Mid 80's and given to India through the 1990's, they have SS-N-2D and 3M-24E anti missle systems and the recent plank shave I-band radar defense system

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Khukri08.jpg
4 TYPE 25 KHUKRI CLASS guided missle corvettes. Almost identical weapn systems to the Veer class.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Kora02.jpg
4 TYPE 25A KORA CLASS, these were put into service to replace the Petya class and have a more capable radar system and carry the SS-N-25 Switchblade which is comparable to the Harpoon

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Brahmaputra4.jpg
1 TYPE 16A BRAHMAPUTRA CLASS Guided Missile Frigate. Again carries the SS-N-25 Switchblade missile system and the Garpun-Gal radar system

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Talwar3.jpg
2 TALWAR {KRIVAK III} CLASS Guided Missile Frigates. It is fitted with the KLUB (SS-N-27) ASCM for active weapons and a SA-17 system for defense.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Godavari2.jpg
3 TYPE 16 GODAVARI CLASS Guided Missile Frigates, it has the SS-N-2D Styx missile system and a mid 80's radar system.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Kashin15.jpg
5 RAJPUT {KASHIN II} CLASS Guided Missile Destroyers. SS-N-2D missile syste, and a SA-N-1 air defense system, russian naval technology from 1983

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Delhi14.jpg
3 TYPE 15 DELHI CLASS Guided Missile Destroyers, carries the more advanced SS-N-25 Switchblade system, one of India's more capable destroyers

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Viraat3.jpg
1 Viraat Class Air Craft Carrier. Given to India in 1987, this is a 1950's British carrier that carries 30 harriers and KA-31 Kamov ASW helicopters, soon to be replaced by the new Kiev Class ship, and an additional carrier is soon to be constructed.

what does all this add up to, a semi potent regional navy, which could deal a stinging blow if used properly. But if whoever they attacked survives a first strike, they would most likely be sunk by a more capable fleet. If this navy wanted to attack a modern western fleet, a surprise first strike would be their only option

[Russian Texan]

There are several mistakes in your armament assessment but overall it is pretty accurate picture. I still do not understand why are you bringing "more modern western fleet" into the conversation. India is not a "world power" it is a regional power. Indian navy is in no way, shape or form capable of challenging US navy, it might do some damage but the outcome of such an adventure is clear...
What these series of leases/purchases intented to do, is to tip the scale in the region in India's favor.
Recently India have started major "renovation project" aimed at modernizing it's armed forces and it's just a next step of it.

But like I have said before, I do think that weapons like "sunburn", "shipwreck" and "yahont" renders most surface ships obsolete... "Harpoons", "exosets" and similar can possibly be dealt with, but how are you going to counter Mach 2.5 "smart" missile that feeds data to other missiles flying below radar level.

[venture160]

texan, you caught me before my follow up post, an evaluation of pakistan, who they are trying to compete with. I am not trying to say they are competing with the west, but I was merely making the comparison for the fun of it. I do agree that systems like sunburn can penetrate the aegis system, because thats what they were designed to do, but I am not so sure India has a sunburn equipped ship yet. But compared to Pakistans navy, India clearly dominates, which is the more important comparison here