Michael & Me — The movie

[Bugalugs]

A very small share of the crime ;)

I'm all for things like target shooting clubs, where people can practice the real art of shooting. Licensed hunters that cull ferals, farmers and the like. But I see absolutely no social good for anything greater in complexity than a shotgun or bolt-action rifle being avilable to the general public.

I think the 2nd Amendment is a rallying point for every loon that wants to own a military assault rifle, to mount a minigun on the back of his Bronco or own a suitcase bomb! That was my point from the get-go

And you seem to have you fair share of loons in the US, too

[joe mama]

Once again all who dissent with you must be idiots! :cantbeli:

Yup, that's EXACTLY what he said when he said he doesn't think you understand the second amendment. I saw it. I saw it say "you must be an idiot!". Well, ok, maybe I didn't see it, since he didn't say that, but you saw it.
Ya know, Minardiau might be a rabid anticcw/antigunner, but at least he puts his points of view up against what we actually say, unlike you who put your points of view up against what you've decided we're all thinking. Why do you bother arguing with us if you already know, regardless of what we say, that we're all trigger happy maniacs that will do anything to hold onto our guns as we sit here glazed-eyed saying how dare anyone suggest we do anything less than instantly shoot anyone we see who even might be committing a crime? Aren't we beneath you, oh great one, since we write one thing but mean something else and need you to translate it for us?

[StukaJr]

A very small share of the crime ;)

I'm all for things like target shooting clubs, where people can practice the real art of shooting. Licensed hunters that cull ferals, farmers and the like. But I see absolutely no social good for anything greater in complexity than a shotgun or bolt-action rifle being avilable to the general public.

I think the 2nd Amendment is a rallying point for every loon that wants to own a military assault rifle, to mount a minigun on the back of his Bronco or own a suitcase bomb! That was my point from the get-go

And you seem to have you fair share of loons in the US, too

In California - we don't... Does jack for having some of the worst crime rates.

As for the rest of the US - that makes sense. I'm sure all the gun nuts will gladly trade in their military assault rifles if the rest of the world agrees to have all cars not be able to drive over common speed limit, food and water rationed to what one should reasonably consume and pretty much ration everything, including personal freedoms... p-)

All of a sudden, blanket statement for what is reasonable for every single citizen is no longer such a good idea... The founding fathers said "life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness" - Marx said "From all by their means, to all by their needs"... :D

[Bugalugs]

Once again all who dissent with you must be idiots! :cantbeli:

Yup, that's EXACTLY what he said when he said he doesn't think you understand the second amendment. I saw it. I saw it say "you must be an idiot!". Well, ok, maybe I didn't see it, since he didn't say that, but you saw it.
Ya know, Minardiau might be a rabid anticcw/antigunner, but at least he puts his points of view up against what we actually say, unlike you who put your points of view up against what you've decided we're all thinking. Why do you bother arguing with us if you already know, regardless of what we say, that we're all trigger happy maniacs that will do anything to hold onto our guns as we sit here glazed-eyed saying how dare anyone suggest we do anything less than instantly shoot anyone we see who even might be committing a crime? Aren't we beneath you, oh great one, since we write one thing but mean something else and need you to translate it for us?

Well, as the good book says (and I have been remindd in this thread),
you reap what you sow...

[Bugalugs]

A very small share of the crime ;)

I'm all for things like target shooting clubs, where people can practice the real art of shooting. Licensed hunters that cull ferals, farmers and the like. But I see absolutely no social good for anything greater in complexity than a shotgun or bolt-action rifle being avilable to the general public.

I think the 2nd Amendment is a rallying point for every loon that wants to own a military assault rifle, to mount a minigun on the back of his Bronco or own a suitcase bomb! That was my point from the get-go

And you seem to have you fair share of loons in the US, too

In California - we don't... Does jack for having some of the worst crime rates.

As for the rest of the US - that makes sense. I'm sure all the gun nuts will gladly trade in their military assault rifles if the rest of the world agrees to have all cars not be able to drive over common speed limit, food and water rationed to what one should reasonably consume and pretty much ration everything, including personal freedoms... p-)


aha so its a conspiracy theory - survivalist thing?

[StukaJr]

A very small share of the crime ;)

I'm all for things like target shooting clubs, where people can practice the real art of shooting. Licensed hunters that cull ferals, farmers and the like. But I see absolutely no social good for anything greater in complexity than a shotgun or bolt-action rifle being avilable to the general public.

I think the 2nd Amendment is a rallying point for every loon that wants to own a military assault rifle, to mount a minigun on the back of his Bronco or own a suitcase bomb! That was my point from the get-go

And you seem to have you fair share of loons in the US, too

In California - we don't... Does jack for having some of the worst crime rates.

As for the rest of the US - that makes sense. I'm sure all the gun nuts will gladly trade in their military assault rifles if the rest of the world agrees to have all cars not be able to drive over common speed limit, food and water rationed to what one should reasonably consume and pretty much ration everything, including personal freedoms... p-)


aha so its a conspiracy theory - survivalist thing?

That's your problem - you are trying to limit everything to one point of view... For some - it's business, since some make career in professional gunsmithing, design etc. For others - it's hobby. For some - it is survival, when you live on the land with nearest law enforcement agency a day's drive away... I'm sure there is more.

If you take away one thing that a law abiding citizen can enjoy doing without causing harm to himself or others - why stop there and just take everything away?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Guns are bad ummkay

[Bugalugs]

A very small share of the crime ;)

I'm all for things like target shooting clubs, where people can practice the real art of shooting. Licensed hunters that cull ferals, farmers and the like. But I see absolutely no social good for anything greater in complexity than a shotgun or bolt-action rifle being avilable to the general public.

I think the 2nd Amendment is a rallying point for every loon that wants to own a military assault rifle, to mount a minigun on the back of his Bronco or own a suitcase bomb! That was my point from the get-go

And you seem to have you fair share of loons in the US, too

In California - we don't... Does jack for having some of the worst crime rates.

As for the rest of the US - that makes sense. I'm sure all the gun nuts will gladly trade in their military assault rifles if the rest of the world agrees to have all cars not be able to drive over common speed limit, food and water rationed to what one should reasonably consume and pretty much ration everything, including personal freedoms... p-)


aha so its a conspiracy theory - survivalist thing?

That's your problem - you are trying to limit everything to one point of view... For some - it's business, since some make career in professional gunsmithing, design etc. For others - it's hobby. For some - it is survival, when you live on the land with nearest law enforcement agency a day's drive away... I'm sure there is more.

If you take away one thing that a law abiding citizen can enjoy doing without causing harm to himself or others - why stop there and just take everything away?

because society overall is a better place without them

[StukaJr]

A very small share of the crime ;)

I'm all for things like target shooting clubs, where people can practice the real art of shooting. Licensed hunters that cull ferals, farmers and the like. But I see absolutely no social good for anything greater in complexity than a shotgun or bolt-action rifle being avilable to the general public.

I think the 2nd Amendment is a rallying point for every loon that wants to own a military assault rifle, to mount a minigun on the back of his Bronco or own a suitcase bomb! That was my point from the get-go

And you seem to have you fair share of loons in the US, too

In California - we don't... Does jack for having some of the worst crime rates.

As for the rest of the US - that makes sense. I'm sure all the gun nuts will gladly trade in their military assault rifles if the rest of the world agrees to have all cars not be able to drive over common speed limit, food and water rationed to what one should reasonably consume and pretty much ration everything, including personal freedoms... p-)


aha so its a conspiracy theory - survivalist thing?

That's your problem - you are trying to limit everything to one point of view... For some - it's business, since some make career in professional gunsmithing, design etc. For others - it's hobby. For some - it is survival, when you live on the land with nearest law enforcement agency a day's drive away... I'm sure there is more.

If you take away one thing that a law abiding citizen can enjoy doing without causing harm to himself or others - why stop there and just take everything away?

because society overall is a better place without them

How would absense of guns make for a better society?

I'm awaiting you to enlighten me p-)

[BarkingSquirrel]

Because I'd have to kill you with something more exotic, like a claw hammer. See? Fun for all. Therefore better society!

[StukaJr]

!Ay, Caramba! !No me gusto!

[Durandal]

Thats lovely, I understand the 2nd Amendment perfectly thanks. I think however it should be torn out and thrown away, thank you

Along with the 1st and 3rd and 4th right?

Crap, lets get rid of the entire thing.

:roll:

[BarkingSquirrel]

I call dibs on the new dictator position!

Haha you nubs were too slow, now I rule :P

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I call dibs on the new dictator position!

Haha you nubs were too slow, now I rule :P

Can I be in charge of gun control legislation?

:P

[BarkingSquirrel]

No but you can be Commander of Dead Body pits 1-9. Unfortunetly this position requires you to work from the bottom up :P

[Geezah]

I'm just glad theres a decent anti-gun lobby on the ground in the US that is putting runs on the board ;)

Are you having a laugh, what decent anti-gun lobby would that be, the scare mongerers known asm the Brady Bunch, that prefer to put a spin on their truth to try adn scare the mass's. They had their chance the ball is back in our court and with seeign as the Republicans are teh majority in the House and Senate, I don't look for them to win anything anytime soon. We just had a big win with the gun protection bill, no longer can the antis sue the manufacterers for the actions of criminals.

Oh well, I'm off till monday. woot

[Geezah]

Just found this, which I thought was interesting.


Why more senior citizens are carrying guns

They're protecting themselves from what they see as a rise in violence, even if crime statistics say otherwise.

By Tim Vanderpool |Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

TUCSON, ARIZ. - A pistol's sharp report pierces the morning calm, as Charles Van Vibber lowers his Glock automatic. He scans a bullet-stopping berm among dusty cactuses at the Desert Trails Gun Club, as a breeze ruffles his white hair.

"You need to be able to protect yourself, because the police are not always able to protect you at any moment," he says.

Mr. Van Vibber, a retired auto-parts worker, and other older Americans account for more than a third of the 700 members regularly honing their marksmanship at this no-nonsense range on Tucson's fringes. Some practice simply for pleasure. But a growing number, including Van Vibber, are serious about protecting themselves, says Desert Trails owner Richard Batory - who cites a "nearly 100 percent jump in the last year of my older members who carry concealed weapons."

Reversing longstanding patterns in the US, residents ages 65 and up are now the mostly likely of all citizens to own a gun. "Personal gun ownership used to be highest among the middle-aged, but in our 2000 and 2002 survey, it was highest among the 65-plus age group. So there is a shift upwards in gun ownership," says Tom Smith, director of the General Social Survey, which is part of the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

In Arizona alone, the state's Department of Public Safety reports that more than 31,000 residents between the ages of 50 and 69 - including 6,200 women - have concealed-weapons permits. It's easy to understand why, says Mr. Batory. "Just read the papers. Older people are getting tired of being picked on by savages."

Misguided concern?

But the fear of violence that drives seniors to arm themselves may be exaggerated. According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, only 3.4 percent of Americans 65 or older fell victim to violent crime in 2002, down from 9.1 percent in 1973. Regardless, "people become more sensitive to the threat of victimization as they age," says Bryan Byers, a professor of criminal justice at Ball State University in Muncie, Ind. "The fear of crime eventually outweighs the reality."

Today's senior citizens also witnessed "a tremendous surge in crime during the 1960s," he says. "That was their experience during a very important time in their lives," and can color their perceptions decades later. Worries about violence can be reinforced by TV shows portraying the elderly as frequent crime victims. The resulting fear can translate into certain "self-protective behaviors," Mr. Byers says, "such as not wanting to go out at night, not wanting to travel, and purchasing guns for protection."

But carrying weapons has its own set of concerns. For example, gun-owning seniors, like any age group, are at risk for having their weapons used against them. Byers notes, however, that researchers haven't been able to compile the exact number of incidents in which this has happened.

Firearms are also a major safety risk for people struggling with age-related dementia. On the Alzheimer's Disease Research Center website, caregivers of Alzheimer's patients post stories of close calls and tragedies. One woman removed firearms from the home she shares with her Alzheimer's-ridden husband, after a neighbor with AD committed a murder-suicide. Another writes that too many times, caregivers find themselves "trapped in bathrooms with a cell phone."

At the gun shop

Those with early Alzheimer's symptoms are sometimes even able to buy guns themselves, says Mark Warner, author of "The Complete Guide to Alzheimer's-Proofing Your Home." "Often the person behind the counter selling a weapon doesn't have the skills or awareness to detect someone in the early stages of dementia," he says.

But gun-rights advocates fiercely oppose attempts to restrict seniors from purchasing firearms, or screening those who do. Armed seniors "are no more of a safety risk than anyone else," says John Bender, executive director of the Texas-based Seniors United Supporting the Second Amendment. Instead, he says that guns "make everyone equal" by compensating for physical disabilities seniors may have.

At Desert Trails, Batory, the owner, says he's never turned anyone away because they were too feeble to shoot. "We have a member with Parkinson's disease, and one who is blind but can still hit the target." Actually, seniors often make the best students, he says, because "you don't have to fight egos and testosterone. And they don't like seniors-only classes. If you single them out, they think they're not able to keep up with everybody else."

Charles Van Vibber heartily agrees, and he claims many reasons for senior citizens to pack guns. One occurred just recently, when he was approached by a suspicious man in a store parking lot. "I moved my hand to my side, and put it on my .45," he says with a slight grin. "The guy knew I had something, and he took off."

In the end, "the best insurance seniors can have against violent crime is a well-armed citizenry," says Van Vibber, gripping his pistol. "Besides, it's a God-given right."

Link (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0106/p02s01-ussc.htm)

[Durandal]

Those with early Alzheimer's symptoms are sometimes even able to buy guns themselves, says Mark Warner, author of "The Complete Guide to Alzheimer's-Proofing Your Home." "Often the person behind the counter selling a weapon doesn't have the skills or awareness to detect someone in the early stages of dementia," he says.

Actually, this comment would be true for most retailers be they car dealers or chainsaw sellers. ;)

Interesting article Geezah. I admit I would not mind them adding Alzheimer's or dementia on the NICS check.

To be honest though, this is probably another "fear" that effects a VERY small minority.

[StukaJr]

Misguided concern?

But the fear of violence that drives seniors to arm themselves may be exaggerated. According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, only 3.4 percent of Americans 65 or older fell victim to violent crime in 2002, down from 9.1 percent in 1973. Regardless, "people become more sensitive to the threat of victimization as they age," says Bryan Byers, a professor of criminal justice at Ball State University in Muncie, Ind. "The fear of crime eventually outweighs the reality."

So the crimerate against seniors decreasing cannot be possibly linked with growth of gun ownership/conceal carry permits amongst that age group? Since vast majority of the crimes are the cases of the strong preying on the weak - the lowering numbers of easy targets in that very group, is somehow alien from lowering crimerate?

Also, safety concerns and the steps taken to be safe should not be guided by the likelyhood of something bad happening... If deaths in automotive accidents and collissions is droppign - does not mean that I shouldn't wear a seatbelt or the Court should penalize the DUI's any less...

[pathfinder82]

A very small share of the crime ;)

I'm all for things like target shooting clubs, where people can practice the real art of shooting. Licensed hunters that cull ferals, farmers and the like. But I see absolutely no social good for anything greater in complexity than a shotgun or bolt-action rifle being avilable to the general public.

I think the 2nd Amendment is a rallying point for every loon that wants to own a military assault rifle, to mount a minigun on the back of his Bronco or own a suitcase bomb! That was my point from the get-go

And you seem to have you fair share of loons in the US, too

In California - we don't... Does jack for having some of the worst crime rates.

As for the rest of the US - that makes sense. I'm sure all the gun nuts will gladly trade in their military assault rifles if the rest of the world agrees to have all cars not be able to drive over common speed limit, food and water rationed to what one should reasonably consume and pretty much ration everything, including personal freedoms... p-)


aha so its a conspiracy theory - survivalist thing?

That's your problem - you are trying to limit everything to one point of view... For some - it's business, since some make career in professional gunsmithing, design etc. For others - it's hobby. For some - it is survival, when you live on the land with nearest law enforcement agency a day's drive away... I'm sure there is more.

If you take away one thing that a law abiding citizen can enjoy doing without causing harm to himself or others - why stop there and just take everything away?

because society overall is a better place without them

How would absense of guns make for a better society?

I'm awaiting you to enlighten me p-)

If I actually have to explain that, please feel free to use your right to shoot yourself. Again is it the loud noise or the feeling of inadequacy it makes up for, why do people like guns so much? They are a tool to do a job not a ****ing toy.And no you dont need an assault rifle, you just dont need it.

When I get home Im more than happy to get that thing off my hip.

[StukaJr]

How would absense of guns make for a better society?

I'm awaiting you to enlighten me p-)

If I actually have to explain that, please feel free to use your right to shoot yourself. Again is it the loud noise or the feeling of inadequacy it makes up for, why do people like guns so much? They are a tool to do a job not a f*** toy.And no you dont need an assault rifle, you just dont need it.

When I get home Im more than happy to get that thing off my hip.

Me? Shoot myself? Why? I'm enjoying my life and don't spoil it for anybody else. Because the Founding Fathers suggested that if I pursue my own means of happiness - I won't be a pent up prick to other people.

So you hate guns yet you make a decision for yourself to be in a position where you have to carry a gun? That's a very mature thing to do. It's like Asthma sufferer getting a bunch of cats and moving next to a construction site and then b1tching about it.

You didn't answer my question, so I'll repeat:

"How would absence of guns make for a better society?"

[Tielir999]

"Guns dont kill people, people kill people."

[Geezah]

Again is it the loud noise or the feeling of inadequacy it makes up for, why do people like guns so much?

Why is it that the only people that enjoy shooting firearms are painted as loons or lacking in some areas?



They are a tool to do a job not a f*** toy.

I think this is the second time I actually agree with you. They are a tool, much like a hammer or chisel.
Even though I'm no longer in the trade(Carpentry) I still own all the tools of the trade, and still enjoy browsing through tool sections in hardware stores/Sears.
I apply this same logic to firearms, if used incorrectly they can be extremely dangerous.



And no you dont need an assault rifle, you just dont need it.

If by Assault Rifle, you mean semi-automatic/self loading rifles that bear cosmetic similarities to Military Firearms then you are correct, we do not NEED them. But as I live in a country that still preserves my freedom of choice, I exercise that freedom, as I WANT to own these types of rifles.



When I get home Im more than happy to get that thing off my hip.

Then it's probably a good thing you work in Chicago, as I would feel very unsafe knowing that you do not feel comfortable carrying the tool of your trade while enforcing the law if it were in the town I reside!