Israeli Payback

[Argyll]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1120015,00.html

[One?]

The UN said the D9 went 26m into the lebanese border.


An Israeli commander Tuesday said a bulldozer crossed the border a few meters to maneuver the machine that was used to remove the explosives. [cnn.com]

So it was an intrusion.


As for the strike that is some serious escalation. Those villages are deep within lebanon. As for bases thats BS. Becuase the IDF knows that hezbollah has no bases, they work in small groups and live in houses just like anyone else till the day of the operation (except for training camps in the north).

Anyone else saw a movie of the D9 getting hit?

[Javehn]

I saw the movie about the D9 . UNIFIL claimed that the ATGM went on Israeli side from Lebanon . Apparantly the D9 did passed 4 metters inside Lebaniese border , and not 25m . Because of narrow sighting of driver , and some difficulties to control the huge monster vehicle .


Hisballah retook IDF leaven bases , and made them as they own posts . For a fact . Almost all IDF leaven bases in eastern side of South Lebanon was reclaimed by Hisballah . Perhaps they don't live there , but they shure do use them .

[Fox2]

I saw the movie about the D9 . UNIFIL claimed that the ATGM went on Israeli side from Lebanon . Apparantly the D9 did passed 4 metters inside Lebaniese border , and not 25m .

I too saw the video of the strike early, early this morning. From what I saw, you could make out a wire coming out the back of the missile.

What type of missile could this be and how could Hezbollah have procured it?

Also, related, what is the Russian equivalent (if there is one) of the TOW ATGM?

[One?]

I saw the movie about the D9 . UNIFIL claimed that the ATGM went on Israeli side from Lebanon . Apparantly the D9 did passed 4 metters inside Lebaniese border , and not 25m .Hisballah retook IDF leaven bases , and made them as they own posts . For a fact .

the IDF posts were all destroyed (blown up actualy) a couple days or weeks after the withdrawl. They didn't want any symbols of the IDF left behind.

[Javehn]

Wrong , only most simbolic were distroyed , such as Buffor .

[One?]

I saw the movie about the D9 . UNIFIL claimed that the ATGM went on Israeli side from Lebanon . Apparantly the D9 did passed 4 metters inside Lebaniese border , and not 25m .

I too saw the video of the strike early, early this morning. From what I saw, you could make out a wire coming out the back of the missile.

What type of missile could this be and how could Hezbollah have procured it?

Also, related, what is the Russian equivalent (if there is one) of the TOW ATGM?

Hezbollah is known to have TOW (some where given by the IDF to the lebanese forces during the civil war. They were later confiscated). I think Iran produces its version of the TOW. Also hezbollah uses the B42 russian anti-tank weapon.

[Argyll]

AT3-Sagger,AT4-Spandrel and AT5-Spigot are all MRATGW(Medium Range Anti Tank Guided weapons),all are wire guided,take your pick!

Where is the video of the attack on the D9?

[Javehn]

Most probably AT-3 like i said allready , or Iranian version of it , called "Raad" with Tandem warhead . About the video , i could find it over the net .

[Fox2]

AT3-Sagger,AT4-Spandrel and AT5-Spigot are all MRATGW(Medium Range Anti Tank Guided weapons),all are wire guided,take your pick!

Where is the video of the attack on the D9?

Thanks for the information, Argyll. I remember reading that they had some similar to the TOW, and did not remember the designations. But was not aware that all three of those were wire-guided.

Thanks again for the info!

[FallenAngel]

The UN said the D9 went 26m into the lebanese border.


An Israeli commander Tuesday said a bulldozer crossed the border a few meters to maneuver the machine that was used to remove the explosives. [cnn.com]

So it was an intrusion.


You believe the UN still? :lol:

I too heard that it was only 3-4 meters in Lebenon which was obviously unintentional. If you've ever seen a D9 up close (I haven't, but seen the bulldozers they're based on.) you know that it is a monster and that driving it is a hell of a job. Combined with the limited vision the added armor gives, I am surprised that it went ONLY 4 meters over the border.

[Javehn]

Nice info about the ATGM , Argyll , that is exactly what they have (Iranian modifications of those) .
However , to add something , as far as i remember , Sagger is the only First generation guided missile , that means you have to watch both the target , and the missile itself , and correct it's flying path . While all the others are second generation ATGM's , and all the operator has to do is , to keep the cross on the target .

[He219]

Would somebody please post a link for the video?

Thanks!
:D

[Argyll]

Thats correct Javehn,but the AT-3 is still a potent missile!
AT4 and AT5 work like the Milan.

[One?]

The UN said the D9 went 26m into the lebanese border.


An Israeli commander Tuesday said a bulldozer crossed the border a few meters to maneuver the machine that was used to remove the explosives. [cnn.com]

So it was an intrusion.


You believe the UN still? :lol:

I too heard that it was only 3-4 meters in Lebenon which was obviously unintentional. If you've ever seen a D9 up close (I haven't, but seen the bulldozers they're based on.) you know that it is a monster and that driving it is a hell of a job. Combined with the limited vision the added armor gives, I am surprised that it went ONLY 4 meters over the border.

never saw one up close, and I dont intend on seeing one either ;)

I still don't understand how hezbollah would infiltrate the border without being detected. Something doesn't seem right.

[Javehn]

AT-3 is very slow (27 sec for 3000 metters ) , but very harmfull one !! But that is classified ...

About your question , One , they were detected , but they couldn't be engaged because they were behind the fence . The fence itself isn't the border between , it's still on Israeli territory , and it has gates on it . The gate was opened and D9 entered behind the gate . He drove on road , that was a brake point between the territories . He deviated from the road a bit , and got fired after he was on Israel territory back .Can you check that Hisballah site , to see if they have the movie ?

By the way , apparantly UNIFIL saw all that happened under they noses , but felt unfit to do something about that . Again .

[Argyll]

Something puzzles me a bit on this whole thing,why were there no cordon troops in place,surely the D9 was not on it's own extremely "close" to the Lebanese border?

Javehn I think if you look hard enough on the net you'll find info pertaining to all Soviet era AT weapons and their capabilities,and effectiveness! ;)

[Fox2]

Thanks for your addition also, Javehn! woot

[Javehn]

Something puzzles me a bit on this whole thing,why were there no cordon troops in place,surely the D9 was not on it's own extremely "close" to the Lebanese border?

Javehn I think if you look hard enough on the net you'll find info pertaining to all Soviet era AT weapons and their capabilities,and effectiveness! ;)

Soldiers were there , and after D9 shot , there were developed long firefight between Hisballah ambush , and IDF troops .

About the second , let's say IDF tanks were a testing fields for Malyutka missiles by Hisballah ... ;) But it's classified still .

[usa320]

I dont give two ****s if the bulldozer went into lebanon. I think the hezbollah are asswipes who deserved the ass kicking they got.

[Roger Rabbit]

:roll:

So with the fire fight that developed after the D9 was attacked then did Israeli troops cross the border or was it conducted with each side sticking to their own piece of land?

[Argyll]

Ok this gets a bit more interesting,they engaged the D9 through the gates?
can someone put up a schematic as to the relation of the D9,the Firing point,and the surrounding area please?
If my logic serves me well,it counts out the AT-3 possibly!
Reasoning is that either they(AT Team) were pretty close,or were very skilled.
In the Milan we had the 75 mil rule,if a target was outside it then given the vehicles speed,chances are a hit would be impossible and therefore a waste of a missile.
If this D9 was even moving at 5 km/ph then the AT3 would be hard pushed to hit the target before it was in cover again.

Also why were the Israeli troops so lapse as to not consider an Ambush?It's not like them.

[George W. Bush]

dudes i need the video of the izzy bulldozer thx

[Argyll]

We all do,Iwant to see it from an Anti Tank Instructors perspective.

I have a horrible feeling that this D9 was indeed inside the border and that's what provided this AT team with the opportunist shot,that resulted in the death of the Israeli soldier.


Let me make myself clear I not taking sides in this,I as an ex MILAN Instructor am looking at this incident from a proffesional point of view.

[One?]

dudes i need the video of the izzy bulldozer thx

watch any of the online Israeli/Arab tv stations thats the fastest way.

Before the D9 was hit smoke came out it (as if it was starting to move).

The D9 didn't seem to be behind the fence but rather in an open area. It could have been targeted by one of the near by hills.

[Javehn]

I can bring it only on words now , maybe the newspapers will have some scematics .

1) The fence that separates between Israel and Lebanon , is not passing on the border itself . It is passing on Israeli border . So , Israeli lands are beyond the fence itself , where Hisballah can walk free , more or less .
2) As i understood , the mine field was maded by Hisballah fighter in very close proximity to fence , so that any vehicle driving near the fence would get down by those side charges . The mine field was discovered 2 weeks ago , but it's dismantling was prohibited during to harsh weather , and that area were declared close .
3)D9 was sent yesterday with an escort to dismantle the mine field . It passed to the other side of gate , and started to drove on road . During it's drive , the driver deviated from a road , and entered 4 metters into Lebanon side .
4)During the dismantling of mine field , it was shot by Hisballah near by Ambush . The D9 was on other side of fence , and nothing between Hisballah and D9 (By the way , Hisballah fighter are excellent ATGM snipers , they probably the first one that engaged targets from ATGM from low ground up to high ground . It was one of the preffered tactics ) .


The security Fence.
http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=523182

[One?]

Ok here we go found another link. Direct from the hezbollah tv station.

http://web.manartv.org/videomedia/even-20_1_2004.ram

watch the first couple minutes (bad quality by the way)

[Argyll]

got another without having to need real player?

[George W. Bush]

Eh don't bother. It's too grainy and runs at 10 frames per second

[George W. Bush]

******* has it.

www.*******.com then ******* tv

[One?]

another video from israeli news station (English)

http://www.iba.org.il/video/engnews.ram

[Argyll]

Well interesting,it looks like this team were pretty close,less than 200m to the D9,the launch was very erratic,it may well have been an AT3 right enough,generally 2nd gen weapons get launched outside the field of view but fall back into the LOS quickly.This didn't,time of flight was less than 5 secs,you can hear the launch,estimating the range from this should be quite simple,by timing the flight to that of detonation,then looking up the TOF for the various systems!
Whatever it was was a definate MRATGW,

[One?]

Well interesting,it looks like this team were pretty close,less than 200m to the D9,the launch was very erratic,it may well have been an AT3 right enough,generally 2nd gen weapons get launched outside the field of view but fall back into the LOS quickly.This didn't,time of flight was less than 5 secs,you can hear the launch,estimating the range from this should be quite simple,by timing the flight to that of detonation,then looking up the TOF for the various systems!
Whatever it was was a definate MRATGW,

the cameraman is usualy positioned away from the unit, at a different angle etc.. so that the IDF would have a harder time identifying were the rocket was launched from.

[UoUo]

Well interesting,it looks like this team were pretty close,less than 200m to the D9,the launch was very erratic,it may well have been an AT3 right enough,generally 2nd gen weapons get launched outside the field of view but fall back into the LOS quickly.This didn't,time of flight was less than 5 secs,you can hear the launch,estimating the range from this should be quite simple,by timing the flight to that of detonation,then looking up the TOF for the various systems!
Whatever it was was a definate MRATGW,

the cameraman is usualy positioned away from the unit, at a different angle etc.. so that the IDF would have a harder time identifying were the rocket was launched from.

Run and don't wait for the mossad to knock on your door. :D ;)

[Argyll]

Ok some clarification here
AT-3 has a MINIMUM range of 500m
AT-4 Spigot not Spandrel as I called it earlier has a minimum range of 70m
At-5 Spandrel is a vehicle launch only system.

So using the amazing powers od deduction Sherlock it looks as if it would be an AT4!

Either that or something European like the
Eryx

[One?]

Well interesting,it looks like this team were pretty close,less than 200m to the D9,the launch was very erratic,it may well have been an AT3 right enough,generally 2nd gen weapons get launched outside the field of view but fall back into the LOS quickly.This didn't,time of flight was less than 5 secs,you can hear the launch,estimating the range from this should be quite simple,by timing the flight to that of detonation,then looking up the TOF for the various systems!
Whatever it was was a definate MRATGW,

the cameraman is usualy positioned away from the unit, at a different angle etc.. so that the IDF would have a harder time identifying were the rocket was launched from.

Run and don't wait for the mossad to knock on your door. :D ;)

huh?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Keep the missiles flying israel!
Mochite etih pidaryobov!

[Javehn]

So what the hell is that missile ? From what i remember , Sagger (Malyutka) have a range between 500-3000 metters . Apparantly , the shot was made under the 500 metters . I read some place , that Russian soldiers had piratly modified those missiles , so they had no starting 500 m distance , but much less .
It fly pattern however looks just like AT-3 pattern . I think it is one of few missiles , that you actually can see it incomming miles away .

[SeanAshi]

As for the strike that is some serious escalation.
One, crawl and complain to the Security council at the UN rofl

[Nizark]

Too bad the IAF couldn't have gone straight into damascus and take out the ring of terror bases surrounding the capital.

http://cryptome.org/Lea352-en.jpg

[StarvingStudent47]

The UN said the D9 went 26m into the lebanese border.

I thought you agreed that the UN couldn't be trusted when they declared that Sheeba Farms were Israeli, not Lebanese. So now you're back to taking them at their word?

[He219]

It looks like the missile hit the D9 right in the Cabin.

http://www.idf.il/newsite/images/yan_rotsenski1.jpg
RIP Sergeant Major Jan Rotzanski

[SeanAshi]

Too bad the IAF couldn't have gone straight into damascus and take out the ring of terror bases surrounding the capital
Its obivious that the terrorist will keep it up, so Israel striking against Syria is very likely, but directly on Damascus I don't know about that, terrorist offices should be legit targets.

[Truthsayer]

Ok some clarification here
AT-3 has a MINIMUM range of 500m
AT-4 Spigot not Spandrel as I called it earlier has a minimum range of 70m
At-5 Spandrel is a vehicle launch only system.

So using the amazing powers od deduction Sherlock it looks as if it would be an AT4!

Either that or something European like the
Eryx

Acctually, AT-4 has an minimum armingrange of 30m, but for safety-reasons it's defined as 70meters.

Wouldn't wanna be as close as 30m however...

[Argyll]

Yeah I think when you're at 30m RUN!!!!

[Truthsayer]

Yeah I think when you're at 30m RUN!!!!

Ofcourse. =)

[He219]

IDF: Syria wasn't tied to latest Hezbollah attack (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/385611.html)

The Israel Defense Forces believes the anti-tank missile fired this week on the northern border, resulting in the death of a soldier, was not a preplanned Hezbollah attack coordinated with Syria.

A high-ranking IDF General Staff source last night told Haaretz Hezbollah activists in the area apparently fired the missile when they noticed the IDF bulldozer passing through the perimeter fence to clear explosive charges placed along the border.

"Hezbollah responded to what it saw as an infiltration of Lebanese territory," the source said. He said the attack was not coordinated in advance between Damascus and the Hezbollah leadership, and should not be likened to attacks in the Har Dov region, or the terror strike initiated and carried out by Hezbollah near Metsuba some two years ago.

Because of this, the source said, there was no reason for the IDF to respond by launching a strike against Syria. "But this doesn't mean we won't attack in Syria next time, if there was justification," he said.

The General Staff views the Israel Air Force's strike in southern Lebanon as successful, since it was a pinpoint and limited strike that avoided a response from Hezbollah and an escalation in the north. "Hezbollah decided to absorb our response and not make a big deal of it," the IDF source said. "It's a function of our deterrence."

A second General Staff source said Hezbollah had failed to drum up much support for the incident. In Lebanon and throughout the Arab world, the attack was greeted with reservations, while the United States and other countries expressed understanding for Israel's response.

[Argyll]

Are the Israeli's basically saying they ****ed up here by allowing this D9 to enter into Lebanon?
It's not like them to shift the blame from a terrorist attack..........I'm a bit puzzled by this statement?

[Javehn]

Again , explanation what happened there .

1)There is a fence , that is not border between Israel and Lebanon . It is security fence , that are located on Israeli ground . That means , that even beyond the fence lies Israeli ground .

2)Hisballah perpetrated Israeli soil again and again , while placing those mines , and only because of ROE (which i can't explain here ) that got very lucky and lived .

3)IDF D9 passed over the security fence to other side . He droved on road in order to clear the mines , and the D9 "spoon" was peeping outside of the international border .

4)Hisballah fighters launched ATGM from placed ambush over there (that means all the thing was staged up from the beginning , and they would fire , even if D9 weren't a bit passing the border . They current clame is redicilous as it is ) .

Now , what the source is saying , that there is no reason to launch strikes into Syria . That's what he is saying .No one surtainly and surtainly didn't let the D9 enter inside the Lebanon , he was driving on Israeli soil (well , almost) .

[Argyll]

Lets clear this up once and for all shall we?
Either the bloody thing was over the border,or not?it matters not if it was 2m or 2km,it's either over or it isn't!
And by the sound of this statement this General is aknowledging that indeed the D9 did encroach the border,as he dismissed it as an ambush,so what do you know that this General doesn't Javehn?
Were you actually there,if not then this "encroachment" is open to interpretation,the sad fact is that someone died because of it,now pardon me for being a little cynical about this but what was wrong with the D9 reversing back if he thought he was over the border by a bit,instead of using this BS about taking time to turn,thats utter nonsense,these things can turn on their own axis,as can any Caterpillar tracked vehicle!

[Javehn]

You killing me , you know ? I made a little scematic , so you can understand . Second , you interprited the general wrong , i happend to hear what he said on the news also , so don't bash and diss me please (not mention the fact i have friends that serve in the sector ) .

http://www.geocities.com/jomavehn/barrier.bmp

If not show , http://www.geocities.com/jomavehn/barrier.bmp

Now , if you look to the picture , you will see , that there is no fisical border between Israel and Lebanon . You can cross the border , just by playing with your hands on the air .Ok ?
The D9 was driving on the road from the right side of the picture . As you can see the road is on Israel , but one wrong move , and it's in Lebanon .

D9 is very very big vehicle , and very hard to control . So the driver passed it's "spoon " to another side by 4 metters , distance that is pittifull to D9 driver , he couldn't ever notice that from his cabine .

To plant that mine field on that road , Hisballah fighters passed many many times into Israeli border . Ok dokey ?

[Argyll]

I'm not having a go at you Javehn,either the D9 was over the border or not,not as Israel see's it but as what is generally recognised?
This is like a domestic dispute about a neighbours fence being in the wrong place,and the overhanging tree syndrome!Both sides are as equally guilty of breaching the borders are they not?
Have the IDF "never" encroached into Lebanon?I'm willing to bet they conduct raids periodically into Lebanon,hell you're forever saying it's a war,and in a war borders are not recognised!

[Javehn]

It's not war , it's just 2 tired fighters knocking each other periodicly in the middle of the ring . I don't know about the IDF Specops and intel service , and it is really not so matter , because they are few and secret . I know what regular army did in the border , and that include very strict border regulation , in order not to escalate the situation a millimetter . The consensus was : We never give them the reason to start , but if they start , they should expect some serios knocking . Offcorse , serious knocking had some serious political plugg , so it is safe to say that IDF as whole was to much carefull on that front .

About that D9 , all that "crossed the border" thing is very suspicios and fishy , because that was an ambush , meaning that even if D9 wouldn't cross the border , that missile would still get in the air ...