Conflict between Angola and South Africa

[Haiw]

Okay, incredible but true there's totally NO mention at all of this conflict in our history books about this, and the only reason I ever knew there had been a war there was because of this forum. Now lately I happened to get in the same class with a South African guy, and after he mentioned it a few times it sparked my interested.

So just out of curiosity (since I don't know jack **** about anything that went down there) could anyone point me in the direction of any good websites about it (history of the conflict, rundown of what went on, stories from people who fought there, etc. etc. just anything) or give me any information about it?
I know I could just google it but I thought maybe someone had already invested some good time in it or maybe someone could point me towards some great reliable stuff. Thanks in advance.

[Loco]

If you want to ask something about that conflict, and about Cuba, who had a prominent role in that war, you can visit this site and forum:
http://www.militar.org.ua/
http://www.militar.org.ua/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=24
It has a wide information about Cuban forces in Angola, Ethipiopia, Namibia war, etc, with photos too, and it has a forum. Although is in spanish, I´m sure if you ask in english in a courteous way, many people will answer you. In that forum there are cuban vets who were in Africa and in other countries who are living in Cuba or are exiliated, one of them a pilot now living in USA.
Also, I know there are south-african vets in this forum. I´ve read a lot about the battle of Cuito Canabale, but only the cuban version, and it´s not enough for me. What´s the southafrican story about that battle? Thanks.
EDITED:Actually, the link about Cuban militar aviation has an english version.
http://www.geocities.com/urrib2000/

[Trident-za]

I've read a few good books on some of the battles, or units involved in Angola. I've never really tried to find any websites on it. From a South African point of view, a lot of it is still shrouded in mystery - I'm not how many people know the "full story".

It also depends, I guess, on how you define the conflict. Technically speaking, the direct conflict between SA and Angolan troops only happened for a few "short" periods. However, many SA units were covertly involved in anti-guerilla activities inside Angola right up until 1989 or so, and the soldiers involved consider that part of the conflict.

[Javehn]

That is actually a good subject , and very undermined . I remember reading at a time a lot of books about the fights in that region , the book main point of view was the presence fo Soviet troops in the region (Angola) .

[Argyll]

Is this the one going back to the late 70's and early 80's?
Plenty of Foreign mercenaries fought against the Cubans and the Angolans.
There was a pretty good book about this at one time!

[Trident-za]

Here is a brief quote from a website on South African SF operations (bear in mind this was written before the "war on terror".


The South African Special Forces have faced the most varied enemy forces of our modern times, including, during the Cold War, regular forces of the Soviet Red Army, the Soviet Special Forces (Spetsnatz), other Soviet and Warsaw Pact regular army Special Forces Units from Ukraine, Byelorussia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Bulgaria and East Germany.


They have also faced the regular and Special Forces from other countries that aligned themselves to the Soviet Union during the Cold War, including Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam and others.



It's not clear where they fought against all these guys, but I would imagine the majority of them were in Angola at one time or another. Come to think of it, it is actually really odd how little is known about this topic.

[Argyll]

A little tidbit about the CIA's involvement in 1975

http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue43/articles/1975_angola.htm

Now Angolan wars are an interesting subject,lots of skeletons in closets here ;)

[Loco]

What I think of what I read in some places, SouthAfrica considered Namibia as a buffer state preventing the help of african countries to the black insurgents inside S.Africa(it was the time of Apartheid), but the matter really exploded when Portugal left Angola. In Angola there were 3 factions, one of them supported by Soviet Unions which eventually took the power, and this country was fought by other force leadered by Jonas Savimbi, who was supported basically by USA, it was other face of the cold war in that time, the 70´s. South Africa supported Savimbi because thought it was the best way preventing a pro-soviet regimen in Angola to help the people of Mandela and other more radical people inside S.Africa. And Cuba, itself, thought that the best way of fighting for its own life was fighting all supported USA regimens around the world, what Che Guevara had said in the 60´s: Creating 100 Vietnams everywhere. So Cuba, itself(without consulting Soviet Union) send troops to Angola for helping the marxist regime. They were sucessful at first, and they ask for Soviet Union for good stuff: all kind of artillery, tanks and Migs. Soviet Union was surprised about Cuba movement, but thought it was a cheap investment: so they gave all stuff that Fidel asked and Cuba put the men, and the war exploded in Angola, it was a true war, not only a guerrilla war. There were regular cuban units fighting against regular south african units, and duels in the air between cuban and southafrican pilots with dogfighting too.

[OnTheRocks]

I read somewhere that the Angolans chained the crews of their t34's to their tank so that they had to fight when they fought against against the SA tanks.

[Loco]

I read somewhere that the Angolans chained the crews of their t34's to their tank so that they had to fight when they fought against against the SA tanks.
no.

[OnTheRocks]

I read it here

http://www.planetbattlefield.com/bushwar/Vehicles/index.html
you need to scroll down a bit, however it might not be credible, but obviously they got their info from somewhere as I doubt that they would have made it up, but who knows...

[Loco]

I read it here

http://www.planetbattlefield.com/bushwar/Vehicles/index.html
you need to scroll down a bit, however it might not be credible, but obviously they got their info from somewhere as I doubt that they would have made it up, but who knows...
I´ve seen that site, but it´s a war game page, I´d suggest better sources for learning about that war. The site I´ve posted above is a good place to begin with.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

If you're into airpower (and let's face it, who isn't?) there's some stuff on African MiGs over at www.acig.org

[Haiw]

Oooh god guess we need some extra paragraphs in our history book.. So basically it was a civil war in Angola with basically communist parties (apart from Angolans, maily cubans) fighting anti-communist parties (apart from Angolans, mainly SAs), right? But is there maybe like a dedicated web page with lots of info about it, or anything about it, maybe some first hand accounts? Anything in English, Dutch or Afrikaans would be greatly appreciated... (Encyclopedias only get you so far you know)

[Trident-za]

You can read Afrikaans? I guess that means I could read dutch. Similar languages, as far as I know...

On the dedicated website - I've found nothing on it. I can give you in the title of an excellent book on SA SF activities in Angola, but I've seen very little on the "whole war".

I guess since the "big" countries like the US weren't activey involved nobody really cares. Even here in SA the Angolan conflict is kept very quite by anyone involved in it (for obvious reasons). I doubt any history books are going to be rewritten :)

[Trident-za]

If anyone is interested, the book I alluded to above is called "The silent war" by Peter Stiff. Ironic title considering the comments in this thread :)

Here is a link to the page on Amazon, although I see it's currently not in stock:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1919854045/qid=1074792182//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl14/002-0459121-6294449?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Primarily a history of the South African Special Forces, it has a good deal of info on (some of) their activities in Angola and Mozambique. Also has a good section on their selection and training, including a very interesting discussion on what they are looking for, and why.

[Javehn]

I have a question for you , Trident-Za . For your service in South Africa , you took part in some "action" ? Sorry for putting it this way , i am just interested , if this days South African soldiers get to see some fight , and what time of fight .

[Dave the Dawg]

A few links:

For basic background information and history, from the US Library of Congress, Angola - A Country Study: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/aotoc.html

Someone's English translation of a 1995 Raids article, "ANGOLA AND SOUTH WEST AFRICA: A FORGOTTEN WAR (1975-89)": http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/1771/raid1.htm (from the "Unofficial SADF Information Page": http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/1771/index.htm )

A site dedicated to an armored car unit (Papa Troop) which fought in Angola: http://papatroop.tripod.com/

[fantassin]

Link to the best "inside" source of books on the South African wars:

http://www.galago.co.za/CAT1.htm

[Trident-za]

The "unofficial SADF" site provides an extremly good overview.... bear in mind that since the article represents an overall picture, it doesn't go into much detail. The book I mentioned above goes into considerably more detail.... "Operation 'Savannah' " was conducted primarily by a handfull special forces soldiers... the "four landrovers" mentioned were manned by SF soldiers and the angolans they had trained.

I don't know enough details of the rest, but as an overview this article is excellent.

The one thing I can add: after the politicains ordered the SA soldiers to withdraw during the 1975 conflict, the commander of the SF unit decided NOT to abandon the angolan soldiers they had trained. A few weeks later, a high up member of the military staff (obviously with political connections) arrived in the military area of South West Africa. During his "brief" he asked the question "Do we have any South African troops inside Angola?" The response was yes (shock to the politicians). He then asked "Where are they?". The officer giving the briefing was standing in front of a huge, wall sized map of angola, and he had to get a pointer to reach far enough up the map to indicate the position of SF soldiers. The general in charge almost lost his job over this incident. SF soldiers were more than 400km inside Angola.

(the US equivalent, I guess, would be admitting to be 400km inside Laos).

[Trident-za]

Link to the best "inside" source of books on the South African wars:

http://www.galago.co.za/CAT1.htm

I have read 8 of those books - all are excellent!

[Haiw]

Thanks for the links, haven't had time to read em thoroughly yet but from first looks it looks like some quite interesting stuff...I might actually order that book when I can't find it in any library here. Oh and Trident-za, it only goes one way with Dutch and Afrikaans; Afrikaans is basically Dutch with most grammar left out (I'm not kidding, seriously), so when you can read Dutch, you can read Afrikaans.

[sa_bushwar]

If you want to ask something about that conflict, and about Cuba, who had a prominent role in that war, you can visit this site and forum:
http://www.militar.org.ua/
http://www.militar.org.ua/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=24
It has a wide information about Cuban forces in Angola, Ethipiopia, Namibia war, etc, with photos too, and it has a forum. Although is in spanish, I´m sure if you ask in english in a courteous way, many people will answer you. In that forum there are cuban vets who were in Africa and in other countries who are living in Cuba or are exiliated, one of them a pilot now living in USA.
Also, I know there are south-african vets in this forum. I´ve read a lot about the battle of Cuito Canabale, but only the cuban version, and it´s not enough for me. What´s the southafrican story about that battle? Thanks.
EDITED:Actually, the link about Cuban militar aviation has an english version.
http://www.geocities.com/urrib2000/

For more on the South African Bushwar, visit my website at http://sites.google.com/site/sabushwarsite

Veterans from all sides of this conflict are invited to submit their stories and photos, so we can preserve the history of this significant but little known war

[Rudolph]

The documentary The Last Domino:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dNi--acWe0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD0UsrcHvmA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8BiSYuZMj0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUSG-jIXvYM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-YZsWjFPGQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFzqILwkLIQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FgLpl5gGPA

[Rudolph]

Detailed account of the initial Angolan invasion with photos: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?126199-First-South-African-venture-into-Angola-1975-76

The Battle of Bridge 14: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?140086-The-Battle-of-Bridge-14-Angolan-War

[ochoa]

**** Lord, a southafrican General

Tactical stalemate and geopolitical change (the end of the Cold War) led to negotiations and talks led to peace – and nonracial democracy in South Africa

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=838&catid=57:Book%20Reviews&Itemid=141

[Rudolph]

**** Lord, a southafrican General

Tactical stalemate and geopolitical change (the end of the Cold War) led to negotiations and talks led to peace – and nonracial democracy in South Africa

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=838&catid=57:Book%20Reviews&Itemid=141




Never a total victory for SA, but seeing as it was reactionary from our side (stopping the destruction of the UNITA HQ), it was certainly far from a failure. Plus, we only dedicated 3,000 SA troops, so really, that was far from an all-out commitment. To win absolutely would've cost 300 SA lives and that shows the respect the SA army and politicians had for human life, the same which could not be said of the enemy.

[Walker-69]

It's funny how the Americans are only now starting to get into the "mine-protected truck" thing, but the South Africans used these like, you know, ages ago. The Casspir is one example. But there must have been others before the Casspir... I have vague memories of V-hulled trucks from when I was a kid, and Elands on the roads of Namibia.

There is a book on the Angola war written by Chester Crocker. He was one of Reagan's men. I would like to read this book someday. If interested, just do a google, the book is called "High Noon in Southern Africa: Making Peace in a Rough Neighborhood".

[Walker-69]

These photos were taken in Angola in 1993. The AK was used to butcher a bull for a feast.

[Walker-69]

I did once also read a biography of Jonas Savimbi. I just did a quick google and I think it must have been this one:

"Jonas Savimbi, a key to Africa", written by Fred Bridgland

On Amazon, it says of the book: "The book's value is in its encyclopedic detail, lively style, and up-to-date information. Its weakness is its undisguised support for Savimbi's cause.".

Remind you, this book was written before the death of Jonas Savimbi. Savimbi turned into a real foul egg at the end, he lost the election and then continued civil war.

[Rudolph]

I did once also read a biography of Jonas Savimbi. I just did a quick google and I think it must have been this one:

"Jonas Savimbi, a key to Africa", written by Fred Bridgland

On Amazon, it says of the book: "The book's value is in its encyclopedic detail, lively style, and up-to-date information. Its weakness is its undisguised support for Savimbi's cause.".

Remind you, this book was written before the death of Jonas Savimbi. Savimbi turned into a real foul egg at the end, he lost the election and then continued civil war.

I once read a good interview with the writer. Basically he was attacked for writing the book, because the left fully supported the MPLA, which was itself a murderous regime, and he admitted that Savimbi became a murderous dictator himself long before the 2nd Angolan war of 1993 started. But once again the blind support for Marxist MPLA unnecessarily complicated matters during the war, although the South African and Reagan government helped UNITA a lot.

[Walker-69]

OK Rudolph I will cut the crap... I have been there as a kid, before 1977, in Namibia. And you know why, because you have done intelligence in Owamboland. I think you should know. I was a missionary kid. This discussion will be obscure to 99,9% of the readers of this forum.

I was telling about MPV's in that earlier posting. But it seems like I might have fabricated the memory. I remember trucks and armoured cars. The armoured car was the Eland, I think. But the truck could not be the Casspir, because the Casspir came about in early 80's. So, it seems like I was bull$hitting myself - I could not have seen the Casspir if it was not even manufactured at that time.

But I recall trucks, army trucks. Donkeys would go stand in the middle of the Tsumeb road because they enjoyed the breeze of cars and trucks driving past. I was told that sometimes the army trucks would ram the donkeys, just for fun. Must have been a strong truck then.

I remember one mission station, and there was a newspaper... there was a photo of a Mirage fighter plane. I think it was a Mirage. I wonder what operation it could have been.

And palm trees, lots of them. White sand of the Owamboland... heat. Snakes would leave their marks in the white sand at night, as they crossed the road. Chameleons. Geckos. Kraals. Chicken. Chicken for lunch, and jelly for dessert that was imported from SA.

Edit: you know, Rudolph, if you are curious about the connections between the mission and SWAPO, I can tell you stuff. I can't remember much detail, but I know many of these people. You might "know" some of the people I know. I don't think there's anything to hide... but of course, if someone wants to hide something, I won't tell. But I don't think there's any major secrets.

It's a small world.

[Rudolph]

This is the ultimate article on the development of mine-resistant vehicles by South Africa and Rhodesia:

http://www.jrtwood.com/article_pookie.asp

[Walker-69]

Very interesting. But do you know what happens to a vehicle that is not mine-protected? I'll show you. This was Angola in 1993, near the Namibian border. -I don't think anyone knew who had laid that mine. It might have been dormant under the tarmac for a long time.

Edit: I have this funny memory that the insurgents would heat up a metal barrel to remove a round piece of tarmac, and then place a landmine on a road and put the tarmac back. Of course I can not prove this, it's just one of those odd memories from 35 years ago, and it could have been nothing but a rumour to start with.

[Walker-69]

More pics from Angola, 1993: a South African practice mine, sunset by the Cunene river, and a water tank at the Namibian border.

[Walker-69]

I recall so many houses in Angola that looked like that water tank. So many ventilation holes. I can't help but wonder - isn't it a problem at night, because mosquitoes get to pass through the holes?

[ochoa]

**** Lord, a southafrican General

Tactical stalemate and geopolitical change (the end of the Cold War) led to negotiations and talks led to peace – and nonracial democracy in South Africa


Well,**** Lord,a southafrican general, not a cuban general or soviet general, say the final outcome was a stalemate.

In his book he says Operation Modular was a victory but the final outcome was a stalemate.

Rudolph:Never a total victory for SA, but seeing as it was reactionary from our side (stopping the destruction of the UNITA HQ), it was certainly far from a failure. Plus, we only dedicated 3,000 SA troops, so really, that was far from an all-out commitment. To win absolutely would've cost 300 SA lives and that shows the respect the SA army and politicians had for human life, the same which could not be said of the enemy.

According **** Lord,Modular was a victory but the final outcome was a stalemate,please read his book.
Everybody knows Cuito Cuanavale was not a southafrican defeat,I already know that.

Rudolph:To win absolutely would've cost 300 SA lives and that shows the respect the SA army and politicians had for human life, the same which could not be said of the enemy.

I totally agree with you but,that was a great weakness of the SADF and the southafrican politicians(the same happened to USA in Vietnam)

The communists dont have that problem but I think you know that.

The communist can tolerate more casualties in a war than democracies because they dont care human life and they only care:GOAL.

Check out WWII,Soviet Union lost more than 20.000.000 of people,do you think USA or another democracy would accept such losses?

[ochoa]

Another southafrican source,Helmoed-Römer Heitman,this is an important southafrican author.

He says:

The main effect of the campaign was to convince all parties that the time had come to negotiate their way out of the Angola mire.

http://books.google.com.pe/books?id=t9Aj997IO9gC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=Helmoed-R.+Heitman+and+Cuito+Cuanavale&source=bl&ots=ZyUceij1cj&sig=dkmI3LWibJ6On6Gkg2BMlMnrurc&hl=es&ei=EOV5S6DOPIre8QbtvdnzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Modern African Wars (3): South-West Africa

Escrito por Helmoed-Römer Heitman


Please Rudolph read pag 41.


As we can see there is not any southafrican or cuban victory here,just a STALEMATE.

[ochoa]

It is however abundantly clear that a tactical stalemate had been reached at the end of a number of victories for the SADF/Unita forces – mainly due to the fact that the SADF no longer enjoyed air superiority. A former South African foreign affairs official best summed the situation as follows: “Cuito Cuanavale was a standoff with an inconclusive military result but with a realization that a military victory was not possible or only at a price that neither side was prepared to pay.”

http://www.acdp.org.za/index.php?page=speeches60

A southafrican foreign affairs official says something very interesting.

[Cpl Kat]

I could keep you busy for months on this topic. Unfortunately my time is very limited, so I can't answer many questions here.

Starting in 1975, the South African Defense Force (SADF) launched a long list of Operations (or Ops) into Angola. The first one was in 1975 called Ops Savannah (I was part of this Ops) that lasted several months. There we were up against Cubans and local Angolan Communistic forces. Other Ops were quite short. See the link below for a list of all the Ops. It starts at "THE OPERATIONS and the BATTLES"

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=424558 (http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=424558)

Some of the Ops listed there have additional links. Note that not all Ops involved Angola.

Google will supply some useful info if you search for Ops names. There are a number of videos on YouTube as well. Search for SADF, or some Ops names like Modular, Hooper, Packer, etc.

[Walker-69]

One strange thing about this long conflict is the baffling number of warring parties. At first, it was the "Putus" or the Portuguese against the Angolan insurgencies. The Portuguese left, and the conflict continued. SADF was not the only outside force, SWAPO was involved as well as small numbers of ANC from South Africa. I can't remember the names of all the guerrilla groups any more. And as has been said, there were sixty thousand Cuban troops in Angola at one point. American involvement might have been greatest in Ronald Reagan's time, but there was some American support even before Reagan if I remember right.

[Cpl Kat]

Yes, there were many players. You can read more about the different groups that were involved here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_for_the_Liberation_of_Angola

There was CIA involvement. Kissinger was also in the mix. Complicated story to make sense of.

[Rudolph]

Basically:

The Portuguese left Angola and Mozambique.

Then the Marxist, Cuban-propped, MPLA took power, their army was FAPLA.

The anti-communists in Angola, FNLA and UNITA, fought the MPLA and were supported by South Africa and the USA. They got funding and Stringers from the US, amongst other things.

Meanwhile south of Angola South Africa was fighting SWAPO rebels in the annexed Namibia/South-west Africa, and when they started building bases in southern Angola, because the MPLA allowed it, South Africa started invading Angola every few years to destroy the SWAPO bases. When coming into contact with Cuban or MPLA troops they fought back, but they never targeted Cuban stations, or Angolan government forces in offensive combat.

Meanwhile Rhodesia gave the country to ZANU-PF, which meant their neighbour Mozambique's Marmixst government did not have to worry about the Rhodesians anymore. Thus, South Africa took over the funding of Renamo from the Rhodesians, an anti-communist rebel group in Mozambique.

Botswana remained neutral, and SA trained their army and police, and in return Botswana imprisoned ANC guerrillas when caught. But with Rhodesia under ZANU-PF rule, the ANC's army MK was able to launch cross-border attacks on South Africa from Zimbabwe.

That's the gist of it. But there were no conventional battles or large-scale guerilla fights between the MK and the SA army, the ANC was simply out-classed. But had the potential to now start the same civil war as were in our neighbours with all of them under African rule.

[Cpl Kat]

^ Excellent summary Rudolph. BTW I like your avatar ...

Here is another thread along the same lines: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?159126

[Walker-69]

May I add one thing: FNLA ceased to exist, but UNITA continued the struggle. However, the remnants of FNLA became the basis of the 32nd Battalion of SADF. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, to add to Rudolph's history - the FNLA, UNITA and MPLA had all been fighting the Portuguese before. The Portuguese were their common enemy to start with. Their differences started only after the Portuguese left, and as said the MPLA were a Marxist group and UNITA had western support. FNLA did not have staying power but some of them became the foundation of the 32nd Battalion.

Feel free to correct any misunderstandings or improper wordings.

It is kind of interesting to speculate afterwards: was the ultimate goal of the communist side to go all the way to the Cape? It is not possible to underestimate the strategic significance of the Cape of South Africa, with all the shipping routes going round it.

[Cpl Kat]

May I add one thing: FNLA ceased to exist, but UNITA continued the struggle. However, the remnants of FNLA became the basis of the 32nd Battalion of SADF. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is partially correct. Not all of the FNLA became a part of 32 BN.

During Ops Savannah, certain FNLA souldiers were selected, trained and fought alongside the SADF soldiers. At the end of the Ops what remained of this group was invited by Jan Breytenbach to become part of a new Unit. Not all of them accepted the offer.

The origins of 32 BN is explained in detail in the book: 32 Battalion: The Inside Story of South Africa's Elite Fighting Unit.

[Walker-69]

I met one SA guy in Finland. He had been a medic in the South African military some time when the 32nd were involved in township operations. He said that when they took X-rays of the 32nd Battalion guys, the X-rays just shone because of all the metal in their bodies. Meaning shrapnel that was imbedded there forever.

[Rudolph]

I met one SA guy in Finland. He had been a medic in the South African military some time when the 32nd were involved in township operations. He said that when they took X-rays of the 32nd Battalion guys, the X-rays just shone because of all the metal in their bodies. Meaning shrapnel that was imbedded there forever.

That's because they've been fighting since very little - hint: they were child soldiers.

[sa_bushwar]

More about the Bushwar at http://sites.google.com/site/sabushwarsite/

[GETSOME]

OK Rudolph I will cut the crap... I have been there as a kid, before 1977, in Namibia. And you know why, because you have done intelligence in Owamboland. I think you should know. I was a missionary kid. This discussion will be obscure to 99,9% of the readers of this forum.

I was telling about MPV's in that earlier posting. But it seems like I might have fabricated the memory. I remember trucks and armoured cars. The armoured car was the Eland, I think. But the truck could not be the Casspir, because the Casspir came about in early 80's. So, it seems like I was bull$hitting myself - I could not have seen the Casspir if it was not even manufactured at that time.

But I recall trucks, army trucks. Donkeys would go stand in the middle of the Tsumeb road because they enjoyed the breeze of cars and trucks driving past. I was told that sometimes the army trucks would ram the donkeys, just for fun. Must have been a strong truck then.

I remember one mission station, and there was a newspaper... there was a photo of a Mirage fighter plane. I think it was a Mirage. I wonder what operation it could have been.

And palm trees, lots of them. White sand of the Owamboland... heat. Snakes would leave their marks in the white sand at night, as they crossed the road. Chameleons. Geckos. Kraals. Chicken. Chicken for lunch, and jelly for dessert that was imported from SA.

Edit: you know, Rudolph, if you are curious about the connections between the mission and SWAPO, I can tell you stuff. I can't remember much detail, but I know many of these people. You might "know" some of the people I know. I don't think there's anything to hide... but of course, if someone wants to hide something, I won't tell. But I don't think there's any major secrets.

It's a small world.
I dont think they where rammed on purpose,because evey donkey killed ,the SADF had to pay out to its owner and the driver would have a new asshole torn by the RSM.
The drivers were told that if it wasnt possible to avoid them with out causing an incident then hit them.
Usually the donkeys were crossing the road ,

[terryasp]

Try this site
www.mercenary-wars.net (http://www.mercenary-wars.net)

terryasp