Private Military Companies or Mercenaries?

[Argyll]

In todays Political Correctness,are these PMC "contractors" just a jazzed up name for Mercenaries?
What do the forum think?and could they state their reasoning please?
Just curious after reading an article about "Sandline" during the 70's and 80's

[Fox2]

My opinion is that they are indeed essentially mercenaries. But they are mercenaries with class. :D They seem to be very different from what one would see as a "typical mercenary."

From what I've read, heard, or seen of them, they look to possess a corporate edge to them, with higher moral fiber than what one would typical attribute to mercenaries. In that I mean they don't seem to sell their talents to the highest bidder, regardless of who the bidder is.

Of course, I am not privy to indepth knowledge of a "Private Military Corporation" and the way it operates, so take all of my speculation with a grain of salt, I suppose.

[mustamato]

Well, as for those "civilian contractors" in Iraq, I don´t like them being there at all. Especially not when there are reports of them using these new dum-dum bullets and shooting people with them and so forth. Usually they look very pimped up as well and very american.

Somehow I have a a feeling of that the Iraqis are not very happy with them.

[TriggerPuller]

Mercenaries are essentially hired to go into a country and overthrow a regime or to back a coups. PMC personell(Iam one of these) are hired by your own country to help with security in it's many forms not to perform direct action missions per se. Armed convoy escorts, security of airports and oil pipelines and to work on a PSD(this is what I do). Two different definitions and missions. Kind of like the difference between being a SEAL and a FR Marine similar in capacity but completely different missions.

TP

[Fox2]

Well, as for those "civilian contractors" in Iraq, I don´t like them being there at all. Especially not when there are reports of them using these new dum-dum bullets and shooting people with them and so forth. Usually they look very pimped up as well and very american.

Somehow I have a a feeling of that the Iraqis are not very happy with them.

Respectfully, I don't think that was an answer to the question.




Mercenaries are essentially hired to go into a coutry and overthrow a regime or to back a coups. PMC personell(Iam one of these) are hired by your own country to help with security in it's many forms not to perform direct action missions per se. Armed convoy escorts, security of airports and oil pipelines and to work on a PSD(this is what I do). Two different definitions and missions. Kind of like the difference between being a SEAL and a FR Marine similar in capacity but completely different missions.

TP

Thanks for the great insight, TP. Yah learn something new every day.

[TriggerPuller]

Well, as for those "civilian contractors" in Iraq, I don´t like them being there at all. Especially not when there are reports of them using these new dum-dum bullets and shooting people with them and so forth. Usually they look very pimped up as well and very american.

Somehow I have a a feeling of that the Iraqis are not very happy with them. You dont know ****!! I know personally the man you speak of that used the LeMas ammo and people are trying to kill you.....dont ever forget this!!!! Americans are hardly the only ones on these security details. Just because we are mostly Caucasian and wearing royal Robbins gear does not make us all from the same country. And FYI the "Iraqi" people are very happy to have us there because they realize that we are trying to keep the peace for them. The problems come from the insurgents from other countries. They have not targeted us yet,but only the Military types in uniform. We did lose a couple of friends working for DynCorp in Astan a few months ago but mostly the Military convoys are targeted not the PMC(civilian) ones.

TP

[mustamato]

Well, as for those "civilian contractors" in Iraq, I don´t like them being there at all. Especially not when there are reports of them using these new dum-dum bullets and shooting people with them and so forth. Usually they look very pimped up as well and very american.

Somehow I have a a feeling of that the Iraqis are not very happy with them. You dont know ****!! I know personally the man you speak of that used the LeMas ammo and people are trying to kill you.....dont ever forget this!!!! Americans are hardly the only ones on these security details. Just because we are mostly Caucasian and wearing royal Robbins gear does not make us all from the same country. And FYI the "Iraqi" people are very happy to have us there because they realize that we are trying to keep the peace for them. The problems come from the insurgents from other countries. They have not targeted us yet,but only the Military types in uniform. We did lose a couple of friends working for DynCorp in Astan a few months ago but mostly the Military convoys are targeted not the PMC(civilian) ones.

TP

Glad to hear that then that the Iraqi people are all thumbs up for you being there. Most be quite a bunch of foreign terrorists in Iraq given the number of daily attacks though.

[TriggerPuller]

Well, as for those "civilian contractors" in Iraq, I don´t like them being there at all. Especially not when there are reports of them using these new dum-dum bullets and shooting people with them and so forth. Usually they look very pimped up as well and very american.

Somehow I have a a feeling of that the Iraqis are not very happy with them. You dont know ****!! I know personally the man you speak of that used the LeMas ammo and people are trying to kill you.....dont ever forget this!!!! Americans are hardly the only ones on these security details. Just because we are mostly Caucasian and wearing royal Robbins gear does not make us all from the same country. And FYI the "Iraqi" people are very happy to have us there because they realize that we are trying to keep the peace for them. The problems come from the insurgents from other countries. They have not targeted us yet,but only the Military types in uniform. We did lose a couple of friends working for DynCorp in Astan a few months ago but mostly the Military convoys are targeted not the PMC(civilian) ones.

TP

Glad to hear that then that the Iraqi people are all thumbs up for you being there. Most be quite a bunch of foreign terrorists in Iraq given the number of daily attacks though.have you ever even been to the ME? all you see is what the media wants you to see. the Iraqi people are very nice they are more than happy to give you a hand when needed and will not even take your money. of course there are extremists but generally speaking the problems come from the outsiders and yes there are alot of them! maybe if you got off your ass and did something you wouldnt have to comment on 3rd hand information on which you know nothing about. And your anti American tone is not well appreciated!

TP

[duck]

How does one manage to look "very American"? By dressing up as Spiderman?

[Beowulf]

How does one manage to look "very American"? By dressing up as Spiderman?
No. As captain America...duh

[Argyll]

You'd be surprised at the number of Brits working for the US in Iraq ;)

[Red]

give no mind to mustamato,he is just trying to be irritating.

[Chops]

Hey B, Argyll; how you doing old fellas?

I'm what you'd loosely call a PMC employee and disagree heartily with a few of your correspondants. One says we're shooting folks with "these new dum dum bullets" and being "very american" and "pimped up". Another, who says he's in the employee of a PMC, but saying that the Iraqi people are "very happy to have us there" and that PMCs have not been targetted.

I have to say in my admittedly limited experience to the AO that all the above statements are incorrect to varying degrees based on my limited experience.

Firstly, the majority of these mythical PMC people are not shooters. Most, like me, are technical specialists, not shooters. Boring but true.

No 2- "dum dums"? WTF? Dude you ever heard of google before you start shooting your mouth off?

No 3- as Argyll says there are also a lot of SA, EUR, AUS, NZ and UK working there at the moment.

No 4- "pimped up"- only what people need. I wear shorts and a tee shirt most of the time- hardly "pimped up". If you're on a CP crew you wear what you need dependent on the area threat level, specifics, whether you're going the dominance or covert route and a heap of other factors..

No 5- Iraqis being happy to see "us"? I've seen little of this. I'm not convinced of the few times I've seen supposedly genuine displays of affection for Coalition people. Most of the locals honestly couldnt give a ****. A lot are out for easy currency and/or employment favours. I've seen very little of the mythical "average Iraqi" that we hear so much of in the papers. I really wonder whether they care who's in charge.

No 6- PMCs targetted? Control Risks have been targetted numerous times at temp VCPs set up by these supposedly friendly locals. As have NGOs like the MAG guys, as have Brown & Root, as have your higher profile DC and Blackwater guys. No-one's throwing roses..

But finally, I do agree that a lot of these bad guys are foreign. The overwhelming majority are. The locals are generally **** opposition. As are most of the foreign fighters but at least the AQT guys tend to have at least some grasp of basic, and I mean basic, section attacks and g stuff/strategic disruption.

anyway, a few thoughts into the pot

rgds

C

[TriggerPuller]

Hey B, Argyll; how you doing old fellas?

I'm what you'd loosely call a PMC employee and disagree heartily with a few of your correspondants. One says we're shooting folks with "these new dum dum bullets" and being "very american" and "pimped up". Another, who says he's in the employee of a PMC, but saying that the Iraqi people are "very happy to have us there" and that PMCs have not been targetted.

I have to say in my admittedly limited experience to the AO that all the above statements are incorrect to varying degrees based on my limited experience.

Firstly, the majority of these mythical PMC people are not shooters. Most, like me, are technical specialists, not shooters. Boring but true.

No 2- "dum dums"? WTF? Dude you ever heard of google before you start shooting your mouth off?

No 3- as Argyll says there are also a lot of SA, EUR, AUS, NZ and UK working there at the moment.

No 4- "pimped up"- only what people need. I wear shorts and a tee shirt most of the time- hardly "pimped up". If you're on a CP crew you wear what you need dependent on the area threat level, specifics, whether you're going the dominance or covert route and a heap of other factors..

No 5- Iraqis being happy to see "us"? I've seen little of this. I'm not convinced of the few times I've seen supposedly genuine displays of affection for Coalition people. Most of the locals honestly couldnt give a f***. A lot are out for easy currency and/or employment favours. I've seen very little of the mythical "average Iraqi" that we hear so much of in the papers. I really wonder whether they care who's in charge.

No 6- PMCs targetted? Control Risks have been targetted numerous times at temp VCPs set up by these supposedly friendly locals. As have NGOs like the MAG guys, as have Brown & Root, as have your higher profile DC and Blackwater guys. No-one's throwing roses..

But finally, I do agree that a lot of these bad guys are foreign. The overwhelming majority are. The locals are generally **** opposition. As are most of the foreign fighters but at least the AQT guys tend to have at least some grasp of basic, and I mean basic, section attacks and g stuff/strategic disruption.

anyway, a few thoughts into the pot

rgds

C I havent been back in a while so maybe the mood has changed. I have 3 friends with BW at the moment not techies. I have 2 friends that just got back last week with SST not techies. one friend with CB who used the Lemas ammo,what was referred to as a dum dum bullet,also not a techie. As for me not a techie and never will be. My company ONLY hires former SEALs and Force Recon Marines who have Force protection or PSD experience. Once these individuals get out of the service as in myself we have continued in the EP field, I graduated from ESI. The 2 individuals that were killed in Astan were former SEALs not techies,one former DEVGRU. I probably should have said that we were not targeted but from my experience,over 3 years total in the ME, they have been targeting the Military convoys and troops, but iam sure you are correct that they have targeted some of the other companies by now.Not a flame it's just that everybody sees things differently and some have never even been there at all and have the nerve to comment(mustamato).

BTW iam probably going back in March with the rest of my mythical company and teammates!! :D

[snake]

All I know is that an Expienced Operator can make a lot more as a Contractor or Consultant than a normal soldier.
Both are Patriots in my book
A contractor does not want for any equipment or hardware
If you are gonna go you might as well get the jack to go with the risk


JK

[TriggerPuller]

All I know is that an Expienced Operator can make a lot more as a Contractor or Consultant than a normal soldier.
Both are Patriots in my book
A contractor does not want for any equipment or hardware
If you are gonna go you might as well get the jack to go with the risk


JKWorking here in LATAM at this time i make about $350-400US per day. Working in the ME I make anywhere from $650-1000US per day. iam on the higher end due to my Military AND EP experience. The former LEO types do pretty well in the ME also.

TP

[Seoulstriker]

^^^ if you worked 365 days a year, you could be paid $350,000!!! :)


just a side note. :hug:

[UkrainianAmerican]

All I know is that an Expienced Operator can make a lot more as a Contractor or Consultant than a normal soldier.
Both are Patriots in my book
A contractor does not want for any equipment or hardware
If you are gonna go you might as well get the jack to go with the risk


JKWorking here in LATAM at this time i make about $350-400US per day. Working in the ME I make anywhere from $650-1000US per day. iam on the higher end due to my Military AND EP experience. The former LEO types do pretty well in the ME also.

TP
DAMN! Drug cartels are probably jealous of that salary! 650-100 a dayu is NICE (provided u return in one piece :| )
Good luck!

[UkrainianAmerican]

Btw, how long do the contracts generally last for?

[Chops]

Hey Mr Puller (?) :D

Sweet- agreed- there are a lot of shooters in the D at the moment- more job opportunities come the handover too..
I'm just saying from my little ol' corner that not all of us are- majority as, were and will be the geek squad..
ESI? Cool, I'm impressed. Hopefully not paid for from your own graft?
Yokel reception? It's not exactly 6th June put it that way. I'm not exactly impressed by "the world's oldest civilised race" either...

rgds

c

PS "A contractor does not want for any equipment or hardware"- huh? Mate it's just like the Green Machine in a lot of regards. Kit being one of them...

[Apogee]

From what I've seen and talked about, PMCs seem to be extremly effective. I have a good buddy on this board from the board whos on a PMC and I he seems like the kind of guy we need in the current situation over in Iraq.

Just a few thoughts, back to the state of the union

[budanski]

I'm curious to know if mustamato is aware that his beloved Volvo is actually American owned?

[Seoulstriker]

I'm curious to know if mustamato is aware that his beloved Volvo is actually American owned?


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[TriggerPuller]

Hey Mr Puller (?) :D

Sweet- agreed- there are a lot of shooters in the D at the moment- more job opportunities come the handover too..
I'm just saying from my little ol' corner that not all of us are- majority as, were and will be the geek squad..
ESI? Cool, I'm impressed. Hopefully not paid for from your own graft?
Yokel reception? It's not exactly 6th June put it that way. I'm not exactly impressed by "the world's oldest civilised race" either...

rgds

c

PS "A contractor does not want for any equipment or hardware"- huh? Mate it's just like the Green Machine in a lot of regards. Kit being one of them... Hey we couldnt do alot of our work if it wasnt for the "geeks". If we are on the same team and the mission is done well then we are all one! I graduated from ESI as the top student,there is an article in the March 2004 SWAT magazine about the resident training. I took out a loan(bank of Mom) for the school and I paid her back on my first job.

TP

P.S. I never made the I dont need gear(kit) remark!

[farmgirl]

From what I've seen and talked about, PMCs seem to be extremly effective. I have a good buddy on this board from the board whos on a PMC and I he seems like the kind of guy we need in the current situation over in Iraq.

Just a few thoughts, back to the state of the union

That's exactly what I was thinking scuba. :)

[James]

In todays Political Correctness,are these PMC "contractors" just a jazzed up name for Mercenaries?
What do the forum think?and could they state their reasoning please?
Just curious after reading an article about "Sandline" during the 70's and 80's

Well... It really depends on who they're working for. Where do the paychecks come from?

Last spring some outfit tried to recruit me and some of my co-workers for a job in Sierra Leone... I didn't even seek out any information on that one :roll:

The company I work for now does a variety of work both in the U.S. and overseas, much of it under contract for the U.S. Gov't (DoD and DoS).
Many companies that are getting contracts for rebuilding Iraq in the aftermath of the late war are turning around and subcontracting for
their security needs.

I suppose that it is a fine line... one man's mercenary is another man's consultant.

[Jack Mehoff]

How does one manage to look "very American"? By dressing up as Spiderman?
No. As captain America...duh

Buff, tall, handsome with oakley sunglasses...duh

[Argyll]

My buddies in Iraq are very very effective in what they do ;)

The "contractors" IMHO will do a better job than some of the regular ground troops as they,generally speaking are,better trained,more mature,and no nonesense "gung-ho" types.They work in close teams,which makes for better comms,they eat sleep and **** the same,they know each other like the back of their hands,and above all they have the trustand respect of each other.
They are also somewhat not tied to "ROE's",no red tape to hinder them in their duties as such.

TP keep the head down if you go in March buddy!
Chop's..ther's a bit of geek in all of us mate ;)
My mate told me much the same about the attitude of the Iraqi's over there,there are too many who are out of jobs now,who are bitter about the "occupation",where'as they had employment with the old regime,they are ordinary Iraqi's not Baathist's,many Shia's have also lost their jobs,with little or no prospect of getting one as it stands,and they have families to support added to that.

[TriggerPuller]

How does one manage to look "very American"? By dressing up as Spiderman?
No. As captain America...duh

Buff, tall, handsome with oakley sunglasses...duhYou described me to a T!!!! But forgot blonde hair! :D

TP

[TriggerPuller]

In todays Political Correctness,are these PMC "contractors" just a jazzed up name for Mercenaries?
What do the forum think?and could they state their reasoning please?
Just curious after reading an article about "Sandline" during the 70's and 80's

Well... It really depends on who they're working for. Where do the paychecks come from?

Last spring some outfit tried to recruit me and some of my co-workers for a job in Sierra Leone... I didn't even seek out any information on that one :roll:

The company I work for now does a variety of work both in the U.S. and overseas, much of it under contract for the U.S. Gov't (DoD and DoS).
Many companies that are getting contracts for rebuilding Iraq in the aftermath of the late war are turning around and subcontracting for
their security needs.

I suppose that it is a fine line... one man's mercenary is another man's consultant.I cant remember the name all of a sudden to save my life but it was a South African company that first went in to secure the diamond mines that kinda started all this PMC stuff in the 90's. They were very effective at the time. **** what the hell was their name?

TP

[Tane Angle]

Looks like I pretty much missed a good thread.

With the mercenary vs. contractor part...I suppose it's sort of like difference between saying the n-word vs. African American. No offense to the mercenaries out there, of course, but it's sort of a deragatory term. By the way, I say DDC(Defense Contracting Company) instead of PMC because it sounds a little less rogue p-) , a little less mercenary. Plus people usually assume I mean Boeing or Lockheed or BAE and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Another good part about the word contractor: Chicks dig construction workers, aka contractors, right California Joe? p-)

Yeah, it's pretty multi-national. And yeah, it's a lot like a SF unit. Close-knit, mature, experienced, very well trained, very well educated, and very professional. We're not hired guns. We're guys who get hired-with guns-but we try to be pretty morally selective in the jobs we do. This paragraph probably sounded really arrogant, didn't it? I hope not.

To all the folks heading over, or where ever, stay safe and take care. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Tane Angle]

TP, it wasn't Executive Outcomes, was it?

[TriggerPuller]

TP, it wasn't Executive Outcomes, was it?That's the one! Now I see why you get paid the big bucks.Claussen I believe was the head honcho for them back then!

TP

[Tane Angle]

Big bucks? rofl I don't know about it being the first one, but it certainly brought the DCC world a little closer to the public view.

[Loco]

I'm curious to know if mustamato is aware that his beloved Volvo is actually American owned?
Noooh! =O But you´ll never have P.Madeleine!

Talking about here and now about civil contractor or private security in Iraq, I think they aren´t mercenaries in anyway, they aren´t doing war against any government for cash, that´s my opinion, they only do a highly specialized and risky job in a foreing country, but at least, this kind of job is actually done by the same people inside their own peaceful countries daily protecting politicians, tycoons or so many times.

[TriggerPuller]

Big bucks? rofl I don't know about it being the first one, but it certainly brought the DCC world a little closer to the public view. Yeah not the first but their work did bring them (PMC's) into the limelight!

TP

[California Joe]

Right Tane. It's all about the chicks.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Looks like I pretty much missed a good thread.

With the mercenary vs. contractor part...I suppose it's sort of like difference between saying the n-word vs. African American. No offense to the mercenaries out there, of course, but it's sort of a deragatory term. By the way, I say DDC(Defense Contracting Company) instead of PMC because it sounds a little less rogue p-) , a little less mercenary. Plus people usually assume I mean Boeing or Lockheed or BAE and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Another good part about the word contractor: Chicks dig construction workers, aka contractors, right California Joe? p-)

Yeah, it's pretty multi-national. And yeah, it's a lot like a SF unit. Close-knit, mature, experienced, very well trained, very well educated, and very professional. We're not hired guns. We're guys who get hired-with guns-but we try to be pretty morally selective in the jobs we do. This paragraph probably sounded really arrogant, didn't it? I hope not.

To all the folks heading over, or where ever, stay safe and take care. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
In my understanding the contractors in iraq are like really elite "rent-a-cops" (no offense implied) then say mercenaries. They dont actually go on too many offensive missions do they?

[Tane Angle]

No offense taken. p-) DCCs/PMCs are very broad. Some contractors fix Apache engines, some cook food for troops, some are bodyguards for the Afghan President, some are force protection/base security, some do SIGINT/ELINT work, and some do kidnap and ransom negotiation/rescue work, just to name a few roles. There are actually private intelligence companies that match most intelligence agencies. For every military job, there is usually a civilian equivalent. So yes, some are security at bases or something (though they pretty much always have very extensive experience in LE or the military).

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[snake]

Did you know that Executive Outcomes will even Finance your War at a very reasonable percentage

Call for the free brochure
Just Kidding about the broucher
Not the Financing

Jk

[fantassin]

Good book on Executive Outcomes:

"Blood Song" by Jim Hooper (available in paperback)

Lots of interviews of the main players of that group on Angola and Sierra Leone. Very informative.

[Trident-za]

The guy who was my company commander while I was deployed operationally was the 2IC of Executive Outcomes a while back. Serious hard-case. His philosophy as company commander was "you can't be happy unless I f*** you up at least once a day". I tended to disagree with his philosophy :)

[UkrainianAmerican]

No offense taken. p-) DCCs/PMCs are very broad. Some contractors fix Apache engines, some cook food for troops, some are bodyguards for the Afghan President, some are force protection/base security, some do SIGINT/ELINT work, and some do kidnap and ransom negotiation/rescue work, just to name a few roles. There are actually private intelligence companies that match most intelligence agencies. For every military job, there is usually a civilian equivalent. So yes, some are security at bases or something (though they pretty much always have very extensive experience in LE or the military).

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
Btw, legally speaking (not that I am opposed to it) isnt kidnaping ransom technically illegal for a private company (that is no government/military license) working in a foreign country?
Thanks for the replies/

[Chops]

Hi RA

Tane meant Kidnap and Ransom (K&R). This is insurance industry work where a crew is contracted to facilitate the management of a kidnap situation on behalf of the insurers who've offered the K&R option; normally for HVTs like directors of multinats and similar. They will handle all contact with the kidnappers and facilitate any ransom transfer. They may, extremely rarely, be called upon to carry out an in extremis hostage rescue if the situation deteriorates and local resources are not felt to be sufficiently skilled or have been compromised.

At Control Risks there are a number of contract guys from London Met SB and SO13 who work extremely successfully in this industry aswell as former UKSF types.

rgds

c

[TriggerPuller]

They may, extremely rarely, be called upon to carry out an in extremis hostage rescue if the situation deteriorates and local resources are not felt to be sufficiently skilled or have been compromised.


c I recently went on one of these hostage rescues with 5 other SEALs(former) about 2 hours south of Mexico City. Our team was hired by the wife of the victim and we had good intel on where he might be. Once the Mexican Army got wind of our plans(not hard to figure out who we were by our look) they did not and would not allow us to attempt the rescue. We were turned away and they took over the job and they were never able to find him. it was a very disappointing situation for all involved and we especially felt bad for the wife for she has not been able to put closure on this matter one way or another.

TP

[Tane Angle]

Yeah, we don't kidnap people, we do the opposite. The work isn't really in the public eye, which is probably a good thing, especially when it comes to rescues. They are more common than most people might think, but TP brings up a good point, that the local government's aren't always big on that. However, sometimes K&R people manuever around the local government's if necessary to rescue the person(s). That is not to say, however, that anyone is rogue, because it just isn't true. Ruthless for a good cause, perhaps. But most soldiers are, because they need to to quite a lot.

Like TP said, it doesn't always work out the way we want to, and it can be rather depressing work, with the distraught families and hindered by politics, etc. Thanks for trying, TP.

Chops, those Brits are real good folks. Thanks for addressing the insurance aspects, by the way, I hadn't gotten to that yet.

Anyone else think that these companies have just super names? They just sound so high speed. p-) Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[TriggerPuller]

Yeah, we don't kidnap people, we do the opposite. The work isn't really in the public eye, which is probably a good thing, especially when it comes to rescues. They are more common than most people might think, but TP brings up a good point, that the local government's aren't always big on that. However, sometimes K&R people manuever around the local government's if necessary to rescue the person(s). That is not to say, however, that anyone is rogue, because it just isn't true. Ruthless for a good cause, perhaps. But most soldiers are, because they need to to quite a lot.

Like TP said, it doesn't always work out the way we want to, and it can be rather depressing work, with the distraught families and hindered by politics, etc. Thanks for trying, TP.

Chops, those Brits are real good folks. Thanks for addressing the insurance aspects, by the way, I hadn't gotten to that yet.

Anyone else think that these companies have just super names? They just sound so high speed. p-) Have a good one all, and just some thoughts... The guy was an English businessman who had dual citizenship between there and Mexico. he had been in country 25-30 yrs growing a vegetable called Okra that was distributed outside and in country. he was kidnapped and shot in broad daylight in Mexico City.There was alot of blood in the vehicle(first indicator that he might be dead) When our K & R guy was contacted they asked for little money(second indicator that he might be dead ). We asked for proof of life,they couldnt give it to us(third indicator that he might be dead). we didnt hear from them for about 60 days (fourth indicator that he might be dead). then all of a sudden we got this strong intel that he was being held in the mountains in a cave. At that point the wife was contacted and told of the new intel and she said she wanted to go through with a rescue attempt. Thats where we came in,we were hired on our backgrounds but we all except one knew eachother. When the Mex Gov got involved it went downhill real fast. Wish I could have dropped the hammer on these Aholes but it was very disappointing to have our hands tied! being here in LATAM Iam sure the opportunity will arise in the near future!

TP