MOVED:The problem with the Turks

[NewsMan]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.

[Umm-Qasr]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country. But what you stated about how they deal with Kurds is not 100% correct and has a history of its own. Turkey didn't deal with the Kurds in a proper way during the period short atround the independence of Turkey. After that the Kurds felt neglected. Many years later the PKK grew and they started with terrorist acts against the Turks. But nowadays there are many Kurdish MPs, business men, artists etc. This is for what I know ...

[Clearday-TRForce]

-We dont hate Kurds, WHY DO YOU MISUNDERSTAND ALL? We have many Turkish Kurd friends in our companies,job environment,in our streets, noone feels same with u. This s so ironic to see same while u post that has no info about us.



-They wanna be big and they can't be

-According to us, we are already big, u can accept or not. This s emotional,this s feelings, this s innate for us.



-Turks treat Kurds like criminals

-We treat Turkish Kurds as our citizens. So this s another imagination of ur mind, what can we do for you? "nothing"



Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city

We wait for all to our beautiful Diyarbakir city who Turkish Kurds livin friendly and peacefully. Have u seen anything like any other conflicts (Israel-Palestians...)here? "NO"



our view s clear in this issue, you have come to the Iraq,divided the people to the ethnic groups, played with them, u have shown them their own ethnic countries instead of UNITY,then u accuse of us to see ur falsified and antidemocratic movements.,



regards

[Clearday-TRForce]

It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country


Our nationalistic feelings cannot prevent us to think logical, and we havent any harm on u or someone around. Patriotism or nationalism...what u call it, we love our people,our country...and also all human being who wanna be a real friend,real peace-keeper...

and Umm-Qasr, u must know it very well than others here.







regards
CDTRF

[NewsMan]

There are such people in such positions, but in the big picture of things, it takes a visit to Eastern Turkey, where most Kurds live, to understand the neglect these people face.

[M_S]

The nationalistic/patriotic level among the turks contribute to the well known descrimination of the kurds, which recently are being cosmetically dealt with, due to turkeys aspiration to join the EU.

[Clearday-TRForce]

There are such people in such positions, but in the big picture of things, it takes a visit to Eastern Turkey, where most Kurds live, to understand the neglect these people face.


I have lived 1 years in Hakkari. The city s near the Northern Iraq. It was the far southeast of Turkey. Very mountained region.
http://www.mersina.com/Turkey/E_Anatolia/Hakkari/i/Hakkari01_Cilo-Sat.GIF

all mountains are over 1500 metres, some of them s over 3500 metres. U cannot find much flay place in there, and it s hard to make any agriculture, a little cattle dealing.

The main problem for us is "PKK". PKK tries to divide regions in Iraq,Syria,Iran and Turkey. But Turkey s voice s far beyond and strong among the others due to his influence level and population in the world. PKK tries to breed discrimination in the region btw kurds and others. This s a so sensitive issue. We dont hate Kurds, we dont need it, we hate terrorists (PKK- is among the terrorist groups list in USA and all the world)
(PKK is the bloodiest group in the world,killed over 30000 people in the region,teachers,women,childs...)


yes, we do not make there like our west-north-south cities due to high terrorism affairs of PKK(very weakened, but they have stole the region s welfare during the 1980s-2000s) and some Maxis groups(very small groups)-Hizbullah(it was an old issue,they had been erased here)



regards

[Clearday-TRForce]

What kinds of attacks has the PKK undertaken?

Mostly attacks on Turkish security forces. But the PKK has also attacked other Turkish sites at home and abroad, as well as Turkish Kurds civilians who would not cooperate with the group. Turkish experts on terrorism have linked suicide bombs targeting local governors and police installations to the PKK. The PKK has also raided villages and small towns. In 1993, the PKK launched coordinated attacks involving firebombs and vandalism on Turkish diplomatic and commercial offices in six West European countries. PKK operatives have used bombs and grenades at tourist sites in Istanbul and at Turkish seaside resorts. They have also kidnapped Western tourists (who were subsequently released) to attract publicity. During fighting in southeast Turkey, PKK terrorists also killed civilians and Turkish Kurd village guards,teachers,women, childs...


Who runs the PKK?
Abdullah Ocalan, a Turkish Kurd who discovered Marxism as a university student in Ankara in the 1970s. Ocalan (known to his supporters as “Apo”) lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon until October 1998, when the Syrians, feeling international pressure and fearing Turkish military action, forced the Kurdish rebels to leave. Ocalan then unsuccessfully sought asylum in several European and African countries. In February 1999, after taking refuge in the Greek embassy in Kenya, he was captured and taken by Turkish special forces to Turkey.


Does the PKK receive support from governments?
Yes. The PKK used Syria as its main base for almost two decades. Several of Turkey’s neighbors have harbored PKK fighters, and Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Greece, Norway (and some other European countries,Italy) have given the group modest financial support, experts say. Iran transported PKK fighters to northern Iraq in exchange for Syrian assistance to the Iranian-supported Hezbollah. In the 1980s, PKK fighters also trained in Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley. In 1999, thousands of PKK fighters retreated into northern Iraq, which the United Nations has designated as a “safe haven” for Iraqi Kurds.





regards,
CDTRF

[toad]

Turkeys problems with political islam and Kurds is a political discussion.

There is a separate forum for that....

[Flagg]

moved....and WILL be locked if the discussion moves even slightly beyond civil

[Xtoisè]

-They wanna be big and they can't be

-According to us, we are already big, u can accept or not. This s emotional,this s feelings, this s innate for us.


In what sense is Turkey big?


If you cant answer this then you prove original poster's point of view.

[Kontra1]

They absolutely hate the Kurds

Haha...

You must be a kurd yourself too ;)

After a 5 year struggle against the invading powers in the country,In 1923 secular young Turkish Republic was declared.

Only a two years later
in 1925 kurds in the SE Turkey rebelled with the demand for creation of autonomus Islamic state within Turkey. Atatürk had fought years against the fundementalists to create a secular Turkey and he wasn't going to give the part of the county away for such creation.

He ****ing crushed them...and if Turkey is still secular country today,one of the reasons is the such an hard reaction from the secular state to set an example for others who might think of the same thing...

Since than we have problems with them,they tried everything...latest version is the pkk's version of "Marxist-Leninist independend kurdish state. You just don't invest much into an area whichs constantly tries to berak away from you...do you? It's not "They try to berak away because we don't invest..it's the other way around. The proof is that they waited only two years after the liberation of the country to rebell.

WE also acknowledge the continuing support of EU countries for this terror organization...we're just waiting for our disgussions with EU to come to full stop before we can react proparly against terorists without any EU restictions.

We have millions of kurds living all over the country with all kinds of civil status...even Presidents.

You got alot to learn.Don't let your hatered for Turks to get in the way of your learning ;)

Kontra1

[derkrieger]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country. But what you stated about how they deal with Kurds is not 100% correct and has a history of its own. Turkey didn't deal with the Kurds in a proper way during the period short atround the independence of Turkey. After that the Kurds felt neglected. Many years later the PKK grew and they started with terrorist acts against the Turks. But nowadays there are many Kurdish MPs, business men, artists etc. This is for what I know ...
Ignorance regarding the Kurdish problem of Turkey in especially Europe has reached a disturbing level. Every time you see reports in TV or papers you have the impression that the reigning conditions are similar to if not harsher than those of former communist states or the third reich, which however has nothing to do with the realities of a modern secular and democratic Turkey, which I happened to visit all the time due to my dissertation at the university.
First of all it is impossible to talk about a predominantly kurdish region, although there is SE Turkey. The reason why we can not talk bout it,is the fact that there are more Kurds living in the western cities of Turkey, like Bursa Adana Mersin and needles to say Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir.
If the Kurds are so oppressed how come that they are allowed to travel overall in Turkey, to flourish in their businesses and to even assume posts like presidential post (Oezal and Inonu, who are both quasi-worshipped by every lawabiding turkish citizen, whatever they ethnically are.
Secondly though it is secular in essence as a state organization, Islam plays a great role in the perceptions of a modern Turk. That being the case if a turkish citizen with a kurdish decent proposes to marry an ethnic Turk, it shall be accepted, The estimated figure of kurdih-turkish marriages are today exceeding 4 millions, how could that be the case if these people were oppressed as some here allege.
In Germany (were I am proud to live :D ) i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
If Turkey was so racist a state, why did they provide Barzani and Talabani turkish diplomatic passports in their difficult times and why did they feed hundreds of thousand of refugees who fled a sudden death at the hands of the soldiers of Saddam.
@ Kontra1 Dude i see u are a turk but you are plain stupid and even fail to give reliable info about your OWN country. Go get urself a book otherwise STFU please.
Reinhard

[Kontra1]

Hey,

Appreciate the truth dude.

Please read the posts in the previous thread(and all aother similar threads started with the similar topics on this board)with similar disgussions before making a judgement ;)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=58130&start=48

Besides..most of them knows the truth...but they hate the Turks in general(due to their history) and they'll support anything against Turkey ;)

Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

derkrieger, merhaba, nasılsın? kontra ya söyledigin kelime hiçde hoş değil arkadaşım,bunu belirtmeliyim. Ben burada senin verdiğin cevaplara benzer yüzlerce cevap verdim. Lakin burada bunlara cevap vermekten biraz sıkıldım/dık, sanırım Kontra da burada aynı şekilde. O yüzden yüzeysel bazı kelimeler yazmak durumunda kalınıyor/uz. İstersen sana bırakalım böyle güzel yazıları birazda siz yazın. Neyse tekrar dan selamlar size.




The Kurdish factor, in the context of the PKK and Northern Iraq, continues to create important curves and testing fields in Turkish-American relations. In other words, the current attitude and policy the US is pursuing in the region, within its intentions, is far beyond being a turning point in relations between "two allied countries," but is galloping at full speed towards a breaking point. "Turkey’s terrorism test" continues. Turkey is looking for an attitude between "Metal Storm" and "being in bed with an elephant.” In this case, Turkey will either find another course to flow into, or renew its marriage or return to its roots. However, in any case, the one who loses will be "the pawn" again!


regards
CDTRF

[derkrieger]

They absolutely hate the Kurds

Haha...

You must be a kurd yourself too ;)

After a 5 year struggle against the invading powers in the country,In 1923 secular young Turkish Republic was declared.

Only a two years later
in 1925 kurds in the SE Turkey rebelled with the demand for creation of autonomus Islamic state within Turkey. Atatürk had fought years against the fundementalists to create a secular Turkey and he wasn't going to give the part of the county away for such creation.

He f*** crushed them...and if Turkey is still secular country today,one of the reasons is the such an hard reaction from the secular state to set an example for others who might think of the same thing...

Since than we have problems with them,they tried everything...latest version is the pkk's version of "Marxist-Leninist independend kurdish state. You just don't invest much into an area whichs constantly tries to berak away from you...do you? It's not "They try to berak away because we don't invest..it's the other way around. The proof is that they waited only two years after the liberation of the country to rebell.

WE also acknowledge the continuing support of EU countries for this terror organization...we're just waiting for our disgussions with EU to come to full stop before we can react proparly against terorists without any EU restictions.

We have millions of kurds living all over the country with all kinds of civil status...even Presidents.

You got alot to learn.Don't let your hatered for Turks to get in the way of your learning ;)

Kontra1
Your remarks here sound really racist bro, it is AS IF you are trying to prove the points of others.

[Kontra1]

They absolutely hate the Kurds

Haha...

You must be a kurd yourself too ;)

After a 5 year struggle against the invading powers in the country,In 1923 secular young Turkish Republic was declared.

Only a two years later
in 1925 kurds in the SE Turkey rebelled with the demand for creation of autonomus Islamic state within Turkey. Atatürk had fought years against the fundementalists to create a secular Turkey and he wasn't going to give the part of the county away for such creation.

He f*** crushed them...and if Turkey is still secular country today,one of the reasons is the such an hard reaction from the secular state to set an example for others who might think of the same thing...

Since than we have problems with them,they tried everything...latest version is the pkk's version of "Marxist-Leninist independend kurdish state. You just don't invest much into an area whichs constantly tries to berak away from you...do you? It's not "They try to berak away because we don't invest..it's the other way around. The proof is that they waited only two years after the liberation of the country to rebell.

WE also acknowledge the continuing support of EU countries for this terror organization...we're just waiting for our disgussions with EU to come to full stop before we can react proparly against terorists without any EU restictions.

We have millions of kurds living all over the country with all kinds of civil status...even Presidents.

You got alot to learn.Don't let your hatered for Turks to get in the way of your learning ;)

Kontra1
Your remarks here sound really racist bro, it is AS IF you are trying to prove the points of others.

That is the fact if you're familiar with the events that happened in 1925.

Mustafa Kemal spent the rest of his life transforming Turkey into a modern, western nation. Few leaders have ever shaped a nation as quickly and permanently as he did. On October 29, 1923, he declared Turkey a republic, with himself as its first president. Five months later he began his program of secularization, by abolishing the caliphate. Within a month Moslem religious colleges and law courts followed the caliph into oblivion. Thus, Turkey became the first Moslem country to practice Western-style separation of church and state.

In 1925 a treaty with Britain gave the oil-rich vilayet of Mosul to Iraq. The same year saw a Kurdish rebellion in the part of Turkey nearest to Iraq, led by Seyh Said, hereditary chief of the Naksbendi dervishes. The Kurds had been loyal subjects of the Turkish sultan, who was also "Commander of the Faithful," but they wanted nothing to do with a secular Turkey. Martial law was proclaimed in thirteen provinces, and the legal definition of treason was extended to include "the use of religion as a political instrument." Within three months the revolt had been stamped out, and Kurdish hopes for an independent Kurdistan were dashed, as they would be in Iraq and Iran later. A side effect of this was that all Sufi lodges and tombs of the saints were closed for the remainder of Kemal's lifetime.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/ne15.html#Ataturk

We are sick and tried of expalining the reality to these "romantic armchair warriors"

make a search to find our endless posts about the subject.

Again...we appreciate your truthfull and enlightning input regarding the matter.

Just follow the replies to see what we mean...you'll come to same result at the end.

Useless.

Kontra1

[M_S]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country. But what you stated about how they deal with Kurds is not 100% correct and has a history of its own. Turkey didn't deal with the Kurds in a proper way during the period short atround the independence of Turkey. After that the Kurds felt neglected. Many years later the PKK grew and they started with terrorist acts against the Turks. But nowadays there are many Kurdish MPs, business men, artists etc. This is for what I know ...
Ignorance regarding the Kurdish problem of Turkey in especially Europe has reached a disturbing level. Every time you see reports in TV or papers you have the impression that the reigning conditions are similar to if not harsher than those of former communist states or the third reich, which however has nothing to do with the realities of a modern secular and democratic Turkey, which I happened to visit all the time due to my dissertation at the university.
First of all it is impossible to talk about a predominantly kurdish region, although there is SE Turkey. The reason why we can not talk bout it,is the fact that there are more Kurds living in the western cities of Turkey, like Bursa Adana Mersin and needles to say Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir.
If the Kurds are so oppressed how come that they are allowed to travel overall in Turkey, to flourish in their businesses and to even assume posts like presidential post (Oezal and Inonu, who are both quasi-worshipped by every lawabiding turkish citizen, whatever they ethnically are.
Secondly though it is secular in essence as a state organization, Islam plays a great role in the perceptions of a modern Turk. That being the case if a turkish citizen with a kurdish decent proposes to marry an ethnic Turk, it shall be accepted, The estimated figure of kurdih-turkish marriages are today exceeding 4 millions, how could that be the case if these people were oppressed as some here allege.
In Germany (were I am proud to live :D ) i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
If Turkey was so racist a state, why did they provide Barzani and Talabani turkish diplomatic passports in their difficult times and why did they feed hundreds of thousand of refugees who fled a sudden death at the hands of the soldiers of Saddam.
@ Kontra1 Dude i see u are a turk but you are plain stupid and even fail to give reliable info about your OWN country. Go get urself a book otherwise STFU please.
Reinhard


Turk in germany?

[achilles]

I will skip posting the first thoughts that come to my mind when i think of the Turkish oppression against the Kurds, and obviously refrain from posting any sources, i have done that already a number of times, for obvious reasons: the Turks will start barking again as if they have all the right in the world and unavoidably the discussion will turn into a huge digital ****hole. Dave Tate is right, they DO have an attitude problem and that does of course does not include EVERY Turk on earth. Just the military oligarchy that runs the country and unfortunately most of the Turks that post here.
The greatest example of this attutude problem has been very recently demonstrated, through Turkey willingness to sign the custom's treaty with the EU-25 without being willing to recognize one the member states: Cyprus :lol: No further comment is necessary here, since the profanity of this mentality is available for everyone to relish....

My 2 cents in the discussion and take it for what it is...an idea. The way i see it, the ONLY way for the TUrks to resolve the 'hidden' war they have in the eastern depths of their country is to promote the creation of an independent Kurdish state. I do not necessarily suggest that this should take place within the current Turkish borders, since it can be a combination of Turkish and N.Iraqi soil.

Let them breath, and you will have solved your problem. That will also allow TUrkey to devote more means towards other goals. Improve its human rights record and improve the overall standards of living of its citizens. Thats what Turkey wants and thats what Turkey's neighbours want.

[achilles]

ANd this is a discussion about Turkey if i am right, so please do your best to avoid busting our balls about how bad Greece is allright? :lol:


Thanks in advance

[Kontra1]

My 2 cents in the discussion and take it for what it is...an idea. The way i see it, the ONLY way for the TUrks to resolve the 'hidden' war they have in the eastern depths of their country is to promote the creation of an independent Kurdish state. I do not necessarily suggest that this should take place within the current Turkish borders, since it can be a combination of Turkish and N.Iraqi soil.

Let them breath, and you will have solved your problem. That will also allow TUrkey to devote more means towards other goals. Improve its human rights record and improve the overall standards of living of its citizens. Thats what Turkey wants and thats what Turkey's neighbours want.

Why don't you keep that 2 cents to solve your Macedonian minority problem in your own country?? It might help recognizing their existance for starters..huh? ;)

We don't need your typical greek hatered motivated input on this.You simply don't have any right to tell us what to do when you oppress a large number of Macedonian minority in your own country.

Why don't you allow them to join Rep. of Macedonia ?


Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles hi, u are in...it means someone will lock the "thread" soon. :lol:
mate I think we must discuss some following MotoGP race critics...

[achilles]

My 2 cents in the discussion and take it for what it is...an idea. The way i see it, the ONLY way for the TUrks to resolve the 'hidden' war they have in the eastern depths of their country is to promote the creation of an independent Kurdish state. I do not necessarily suggest that this should take place within the current Turkish borders, since it can be a combination of Turkish and N.Iraqi soil.

Let them breath, and you will have solved your problem. That will also allow TUrkey to devote more means towards other goals. Improve its human rights record and improve the overall standards of living of its citizens. Thats what Turkey wants and thats what Turkey's neighbours want.

Why don't you keep that 2 cents to solve your Macedonian minority problem in your own country?? It might help recognizing their existance for starters..huh? ;)

We don't need your typical greek hatered motivated input on this.

Kontra1

Show me the non-factual points in my posts, ONE BY ONE, consolidate that they are not true but emotionally motivated, and then try to deviate the discussion by talking about the weather. You have just consolidated Dave Tate's assessement regarding your attitude issues.

So what is it gonna be? Are you gonna cut to the chase or keep convincing everyone what a monstrous country Greece is? :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country. But what you stated about how they deal with Kurds is not 100% correct and has a history of its own. Turkey didn't deal with the Kurds in a proper way during the period short atround the independence of Turkey. After that the Kurds felt neglected. Many years later the PKK grew and they started with terrorist acts against the Turks. But nowadays there are many Kurdish MPs, business men, artists etc. This is for what I know ...
Ignorance regarding the Kurdish problem of Turkey in especially Europe has reached a disturbing level. Every time you see reports in TV or papers you have the impression that the reigning conditions are similar to if not harsher than those of former communist states or the third reich, which however has nothing to do with the realities of a modern secular and democratic Turkey, which I happened to visit all the time due to my dissertation at the university.
First of all it is impossible to talk about a predominantly kurdish region, although there is SE Turkey. The reason why we can not talk bout it,is the fact that there are more Kurds living in the western cities of Turkey, like Bursa Adana Mersin and needles to say Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir.
If the Kurds are so oppressed how come that they are allowed to travel overall in Turkey, to flourish in their businesses and to even assume posts like presidential post (Oezal and Inonu, who are both quasi-worshipped by every lawabiding turkish citizen, whatever they ethnically are.
Secondly though it is secular in essence as a state organization, Islam plays a great role in the perceptions of a modern Turk. That being the case if a turkish citizen with a kurdish decent proposes to marry an ethnic Turk, it shall be accepted, The estimated figure of kurdih-turkish marriages are today exceeding 4 millions, how could that be the case if these people were oppressed as some here allege.
In Germany (were I am proud to live :D ) i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
If Turkey was so racist a state, why did they provide Barzani and Talabani turkish diplomatic passports in their difficult times and why did they feed hundreds of thousand of refugees who fled a sudden death at the hands of the soldiers of Saddam.
@ Kontra1 Dude i see u are a turk but you are plain stupid and even fail to give reliable info about your OWN country. Go get urself a book otherwise STFU please.
Reinhard


Turk in germany?


Alliens in Jupiter?

[achilles]

Achilles hi, u are in...it means someone will lock the "thread" soon. :lol:
mate I think we must discuss some following MotoGP race critics...

We can always talk about a number of things.
Now if you dont have the gut to talk decently about hot issues, thats neither my fault nor my business....

And the threads are getting locked because you have absolutely no willingness to admit ANYTHING. Thats a fact. Its clearly up to you...

[Clearday-TRForce]

it s so funny, look at the discussion board, there are no any Kurds arounds, but we discuss what? :lol: yeah Tanzai Government has announced they will take to some N.Iraq Kurdish people into their management, and will give them autority on tanzai monsters provision. woot yeah keep up good job Tanzai community.

[achilles]

Why don't you allow them to join Rep. of Macedonia ?
Kontra1

:lol: :lol: You mean Northern Greece to become part of this hybrid of a country?


Get real, man, and stick to the point.

[Kontra1]

My 2 cents in the discussion and take it for what it is...an idea. The way i see it, the ONLY way for the TUrks to resolve the 'hidden' war they have in the eastern depths of their country is to promote the creation of an independent Kurdish state. I do not necessarily suggest that this should take place within the current Turkish borders, since it can be a combination of Turkish and N.Iraqi soil.

Let them breath, and you will have solved your problem. That will also allow TUrkey to devote more means towards other goals. Improve its human rights record and improve the overall standards of living of its citizens. Thats what Turkey wants and thats what Turkey's neighbours want.

Why don't you keep that 2 cents to solve your Macedonian minority problem in your own country?? It might help recognizing their existance for starters..huh? ;)

We don't need your typical greek hatered motivated input on this.

Kontra1

Show me the non-factual points in my posts, ONE BY ONE, consolidate that they are not true but emotionally motivated, and then try to deviate the discussion by talking about the weather. You have just consolidated Dave Tate's assessement regarding your attitude issues.

So what is it gonna be? Are you gonna cut to the chase or keep convincing everyone what a monstrous country Greece is? :lol:

Shhh! you're throwing out stones from a glass house. I'd keep quiet if I were you ;)


Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles hi, u are in...it means someone will lock the "thread" soon. :lol:
mate I think we must discuss some following MotoGP race critics...

We can always talk about a number of things.
Now if you dont have the gut to talk decently about hot issues, thats neither my fault nor my business....

And the threads are getting locked because you have absolutely no willingness to admit ANYTHING. Thats a fact. Its clearly up to you...


yeah mate,lets continue, but there are other dimensions of "admit anything" when u type it, it s the "admit something" without in-dept look,Thats a fact too. isnt that? damn dimensions kill me. ;)

[Kontra1]

Why don't you allow them to join Rep. of Macedonia ?
Kontra1

:lol: :lol: You mean Northern Greece to become part of this hybrid of a country?


Get real, man, and stick to the point.

Riiight...The Rep.Of Macedonia recognized by other independent countries including U.S is a hybrid country...huh?;)

but non-existing independent kurdassistan is a country already :lol:


Kontra1

[achilles]

Shhh! you're throwing out stones from a glass house. I'd keep quiet if I were you ;)


Kontra1

Hey i must admit....you beat me to it :lol: Duh...nevermind, i knew this wouldnt get anywhere far...it seems that Greek news reach Norway with a significant time lag

[Clearday-TRForce]

dp.

[achilles]

Riiight...The Rep.Of Macedonia recognized by other independent countries including U.S is a hybrid country...huh?;)

but non-existing independent kurdassistan is a country already :lol:


Kontra1

Hybrid in terms of how they want to define themselves. Sure there is such an independent state under its proper name: 'Skopje'. But you know what? They wanted the name, they got it due to OUR diplomatic mistakes, Tito's persistence and American's support.


The US? Well the US is telling us that its fighting a war on terror somewhere in Iraq, so? :lol:

[Kontra1]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country. But what you stated about how they deal with Kurds is not 100% correct and has a history of its own. Turkey didn't deal with the Kurds in a proper way during the period short atround the independence of Turkey. After that the Kurds felt neglected. Many years later the PKK grew and they started with terrorist acts against the Turks. But nowadays there are many Kurdish MPs, business men, artists etc. This is for what I know ...
Ignorance regarding the Kurdish problem of Turkey in especially Europe has reached a disturbing level. Every time you see reports in TV or papers you have the impression that the reigning conditions are similar to if not harsher than those of former communist states or the third reich, which however has nothing to do with the realities of a modern secular and democratic Turkey, which I happened to visit all the time due to my dissertation at the university.
First of all it is impossible to talk about a predominantly kurdish region, although there is SE Turkey. The reason why we can not talk bout it,is the fact that there are more Kurds living in the western cities of Turkey, like Bursa Adana Mersin and needles to say Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir.
If the Kurds are so oppressed how come that they are allowed to travel overall in Turkey, to flourish in their businesses and to even assume posts like presidential post (Oezal and Inonu, who are both quasi-worshipped by every lawabiding turkish citizen, whatever they ethnically are.
Secondly though it is secular in essence as a state organization, Islam plays a great role in the perceptions of a modern Turk. That being the case if a turkish citizen with a kurdish decent proposes to marry an ethnic Turk, it shall be accepted, The estimated figure of kurdih-turkish marriages are today exceeding 4 millions, how could that be the case if these people were oppressed as some here allege.
In Germany (were I am proud to live :D ) i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
If Turkey was so racist a state, why did they provide Barzani and Talabani turkish diplomatic passports in their difficult times and why did they feed hundreds of thousand of refugees who fled a sudden death at the hands of the soldiers of Saddam.
@ Kontra1 Dude i see u are a turk but you are plain stupid and even fail to give reliable info about your OWN country. Go get urself a book otherwise STFU please.
Reinhard

Turk in germany?

"Reinhard" is not a Turkish name.

[achilles]

and own separatist movements as in Cretans

Crete wants to become independent? rofl

[CG51]

Jeebus, we need a Turks vs Greek section only on MP.net. p-)

[Clearday-TRForce]

We have a number of problems, which may pose a risk to internal peace. These problems are manipulated, and emerged as a result of both internal and outsider involvements. The crime rate increases in monopolies. The ethnic minorities ask for better representation, and individual rights. People want to live in a more prosperous way, and have a better functioning democracy.”

Above phrase is valid for Turkey, but if one replaces the “we” above, with EU, or Greece, or Tanzania, the sentence will remain valid, thus implying a tautology.

There have been more bombs placed in the subways of EU members than those in Turkey. There have been more civil wars in the history of EU members, than in Turkey, with evidently more casualties. Besides the recent ‘engineered’ vicious yet ineffective PKK bombings, Turkey has enjoyed the peace, by which we have broken consecutive economic records. In the South Eastern Turkey, the quantity of agricultural products increased three fold in the last three years. The length of the EU-class roads in the same region has reached to 6000 kms, beginning from 500 kms just three years ago. Many non-Turkish, non-Kurdish communities, who suffered from getting caught in between PKK terrorists and Turkish security forces returned their homes, with all the infrastructural investments, repairs borne to the government. The trade relations to Syria and Iraq has reached to record levels, and Southeastern provinces of Gaziantep and Diyarbakir has become trade centers for the upper Middle East as a whole, to such an extent that Iraqis and Syrians organizing their trade fairs in said cities. The speakers of Kurdish Courses complaining about the fact that Kurdish parents are more akin to send their children to English and Ballet courses than sending them to Kurdish courses.

We have a plenty of peace here, which is pretty sought in EU. On the other hand, we have the same (repeat the same) integration problems as with EU. There are 1.5 million Kurds in Istanbul, the greatest Kurdish city in Turkey, who cannot easily integrate into the metropolis life. As with France, who has problems with dealing 20% of its population made up mainly of North African Muslims, we do have problems with integrating Kurds into the society. We do not have a more aggravated problem than that of each and every EU member, including Greece, who experiences her own integration problems regarding Albanian migrants, and own separatist movements as in Cretans. Until now Europeans tend to buy freedom and separation ambitions, a policy which I think cannot survive the forthcoming years.
(taken by Modus)




regards
CDTRF

[Clearday-TRForce]

Jeebus, we need a Turks vs Greek section only on MP.net. p-)

u can be sure mate, we will increase the reading numbers, save MP.net, keep out all Turko-Greco threads away :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

A little Brzezinski and Mackinder would help a lot to understand what s going on earth.

[CG51]

Jeebus, we need a Turks vs Greek section only on MP.net. p-)

u can be sure mate, we will increase the reading numbers, save MP.net, keep out all Turko-Greco threads away :lol:

uhm....ok....

[Nikitaras]

and own separatist movements as in Cretans

Crete wants to become independent? rofl

Let them go rofl

[Kontra1]

under its proper name: 'Skopje'.

You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

It is true that up until a few years ago Kurds were not even recognized as Kurds, but were classified as "Mountain Turks".

With greater Kurdish autonomy in northern Iraq and an influx of money from their oil revenue, I'm almost positive that we will see an independent Kurdistan in the near future.

[achilles]

and own separatist movements as in Cretans

Crete wants to become independent? rofl

Let them go rofl

No **** rofl , although mavropoukamisas wouldnt like that...



You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

Ok here is an example, in order to show how ignorant you are about the Macedonian issue: tell the French to allow the Brits to name the Southern part of Britain 'New France' and, again, tell the French to start calling this territory 'New France'. You are completely out of touch...

[Nikitaras]

under its proper name: 'Skopje'.

You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

I haven't seen many pics of Greek soldiers masturbating over decapitated FYROM Skopjians. Please feel free to post any links if you have them, other than that try to stay on topic.

[Xtoisè]

[quote]-They wanna be big and they can't be

-According to us, we are already big, u can accept or not. This s emotional,this s feelings, this s innate for us.


In what sense is Turkey big?


If you cant answer this then you prove original poster's point of view.

[Laworkerbee]

I gotta give one of these to the Turks :hug:

[Kontra1]

Ok here is an example, in order to show how ignorant you are about the Macedonian issue: tell the French to allow the Brits to name the Southern part of Britain 'New France' and, again, tell the French to start calling this territory 'New France'. You are completely out of touch...

What a dumb comparison :lol:

Altough you greeks do everything to deniy it, there's always been a country called Macedonia in the history in the same place as todays Rep. of Macedonia...only a little smaller due to your country's annexation of southern parts of it.(where you call N.greece and where all the Macedonians live)Let them re-join the mainland of Macedonia ;)

Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

It is true that up until a few years ago Kurds were not even recognized as Kurds, but were classified as "Mountain Turks".

With greater Kurdish autonomy in northern Iraq and an influx of money from their oil revenue, I'm almost positive that we will see an independent Kurdistan in the near future.

no, Turkish Kurds will be the answer...what s the meaning of mountain? mate they are human,not animals

[Kontra1]

under its proper name: 'Skopje'.

You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

I haven't seen many pics of Greek soldiers masturbating over decapitated FYROM Skopjians. Please feel free to post any links if you have them, other than that try to stay on topic.

That's because ethnic Macedonians in greece haven't start a armed struggle to seperate from greece and join the Republic of Macedonia....yet ;)


Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

groups are ok, now lets play football...


Achilles and Nikiritas - CDTRF and Kontra

the game consists of two section, each section s 15 minutes... :D

[Clearday-TRForce]

I gotta give one of these to the Turks :hug:



dude,ok, u can be referee :lol:

[Corvus]

under its proper name: 'Skopje'.

You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

I haven't seen many pics of Greek soldiers masturbating over decapitated FYROM Skopjians. Please feel free to post any links if you have them, other than that try to stay on topic.

That's because ethnic Macedonians in greece haven't start a armed struggle to seperate from greece and join the Republic of Macedonia....yet ;)


Kontra1

Why do you think they haven't started an armed struggle? Think hard about this...

:roll:

[Clearday-TRForce]

[quote]-They wanna be big and they can't be

-According to us, we are already big, u can accept or not. This s emotional,this s feelings, this s innate for us.


In what sense is Turkey big?


If you cant answer this then you prove original poster's point of view.


I ve answered everytime, everybody here knows us who we are or not...History Shopping center near ur home, please get there and take a book about World History. :D

[Clearday-TRForce]

superb, corves here another excellent contributor to the world and region issues, lets have a match immediately,we should do it.I cant hold myself.

[achilles]

What a dumb comparison :lol:

In order to understand my pretty fair analogy, two things are necessary:
1) To have a minimal knowledge of the region's history
2) Remove the head from your sphincter.

You qualify for none of the two. Too bad for you :lol:


Altough you greeks do everything to deniy it, there's always been a country called Macedonia in the history in the same place as todays Rep. of Macedonia...only a little smaller due to your country's annexation of southern parts of it.(where you call N.greece and where all the Macedonians live)Let them re-join the mainland of Macedonia ;)

Indeed there was a country named Macedonia, the homeland of the ancient Greek tribe, i.e. Μακεδνοί.. Later on, and that is centuries later, with the descent of the Slavs and the expansion of the Bulgarians, part of the ancient Macedonia fell into the hands of those non-indegenous peoples. Pretty much like you got Constantinople, Pontos and the Minor Asia coastline, i.e. the best real-estate your country has.

Now you were about to say something about those monsters, the Kurds...they are killers arent they?

[Kontra1]

It is true that up until a few years ago Kurds were not even recognized as Kurds, but were classified as "Mountain Turks".

Maceconians in Greece didn't even get that recognition yet.



With greater Kurdish autonomy in northern Iraq and an influx of money from their oil revenue, I'm almost positive that we will see an independent Kurdistan in the near future.

Yeah...the oil will be flown out of there...right? ;)

Kontra1

[achilles]

[quote=achilles]under its proper name: 'Skopje'.

You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

I haven't seen many pics of Greek soldiers masturbating over decapitated FYROM Skopjians. Please feel free to post any links if you have them, other than that try to stay on topic.

Nah, he found it. No matter what we say, he will turn the attention to the Macedonia issue. Thats all he can do. Equivocate, deceive and deny. Its really sad...yet, amusing from times to times.
:lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

What a dumb comparison :lol:

In order to understand my pretty fair analogy, two things are necessary:
1) To have a minimal knowledge of the region's history
2) Remove the head from your sphincter.

You qualify for none of the two. Too bad for you :lol:


Altough you greeks do everything to deniy it, there's always been a country called Macedonia in the history in the same place as todays Rep. of Macedonia...only a little smaller due to your country's annexation of southern parts of it.(where you call N.greece and where all the Macedonians live)Let them re-join the mainland of Macedonia ;)

Indeed there was a country named Macedonia, the homeland of the ancient Greek tribe, i.e. Μακεδνοί.. Later on, and that is centuries later, with the descent of the Slavs and the expansion of the Bulgarians, part of the ancient Macedonia fell into the hands of those non-indegenous peoples. Pretty much like you got Constantinople, Pontos and the Minor Asia coastline, i.e. the best real-estate your country has.

Now you were about to say something about those monsters, the Kurds...they are killers arent they?


Yeah we have Istanbul from 1453!!! woot and damn all of ur lands were belong to us, but our sultans had fought in different countries,have forgetten to fight in former turkish greece lands...But we are happy now,so u must be happy with new Film Series named "Yabancı Damat" :lol:


regards to the damats

[Kontra1]

Why do you think they haven't started an armed struggle? Think hard about this...

:roll:

Can be hard for you to figure out but...it's as simple as; they haven't been supported for such sutruggle....yet. Some one should train them i.e Greek military did with pkk in Syria.


Kontra1

[achilles]

It is true that up until a few years ago Kurds were not even recognized as Kurds, but were classified as "Mountain Turks".

Maceconians in Greece didn't even get that recognition yet.



With greater Kurdish autonomy in northern Iraq and an influx of money from their oil revenue, I'm almost positive that we will see an independent Kurdistan in the near future.

Yeah...the oil will be flown out of there...right? ;)

Kontra1

Kontra tell us about A:

Macedonians in Greece....

Kontra, tell us about B:
Macedonians in Greece....

Kontra, tell us SOMETHING:

MAcedonians in Greece...



Move on man, make this a bit more interesting for Allah's sake...

[Clearday-TRForce]

excellent forum, noone listens noone... :lol:

[achilles]

under its proper name: 'Skopje'.

You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

I haven't seen many pics of Greek soldiers masturbating over decapitated FYROM Skopjians. Please feel free to post any links if you have them, other than that try to stay on topic.

That's because ethnic Macedonians in greece haven't start a armed struggle to seperate from greece and join the Republic of Macedonia....yet ;)


Kontra1

Why do you think they haven't started an armed struggle? Think hard about this...

:roll:

You got your answer, mate...Macedonians in Greece! :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

excellent forum, noone listens noone... :lol:


when turko-greko meets in same room,you can wait for "hot" - "quick" environments...very peaceful,very fruitfull...We need more Turkish and Greeks in MP.net to abolish all forums. woot

[Clearday-TRForce]

under its proper name: 'Skopje'.

You won't even ****ounce the legal and recognized name of an independent country.

Who has problems here.

Kontra1

I haven't seen many pics of Greek soldiers masturbating over decapitated FYROM Skopjians. Please feel free to post any links if you have them, other than that try to stay on topic.

That's because ethnic Macedonians in greece haven't start a armed struggle to seperate from greece and join the Republic of Macedonia....yet ;)


Kontra1

Why do you think they haven't started an armed struggle? Think hard about this...

:roll:

You got your answer, mate...Macedonians in Greece! :lol:


lets deal, macedonians in Greece, N.Iraq-Kerkuk in Turkey... :D

[Kontra1]

Nah, he found it. No matter what we say, he will turn the attention to the Macedonia issue. Thats all he can do. Equivocate, deceive and deny. Its really sad...yet, amusing from times to times.
:lol:

I have no problem tackling armenians,kurds and few others regarding such temas...but Greeks...they simply have no right to say anything before they stop the uppressing of the etnic Turks,Pomaks,Macedonians,Gypsies....and Albanians in their own country.

As simple as that.

Kontra1

[achilles]

excellent forum, noone listens noone... :lol:


when turko-greko meets in same room,you can wait for "hot" - "quick" environments...very peaceful,very fruitfull...We need more Turkish and Greeks in MP.net to abolish all forums. woot

We expect you to analyze your personal assessment of your country's stance against the Kurds, and your view regarding the creation of a sovereign Kurdish state.

Show some gut, baby! :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

woot

1-1...continue...

[achilles]

Nah, he found it. No matter what we say, he will turn the attention to the Macedonia issue. Thats all he can do. Equivocate, deceive and deny. Its really sad...yet, amusing from times to times.
:lol:

I have no problem tackling armenians,kurds and few others regarding such temas...but Greeks...they simply have no right to say anything before they stop the uppressing of the etnic Turks,Pomaks,Macedonians,Gypsies....and Albanians in their own country.

As simple as that.

Kontra1

Oh my :lol: ...well the Greeks have always been vocal and always will be. Learn to live with it, or stick in your denial world.

Again, a Turk criticizing a Greek is like a German criticizing the French for what they did in WWII....cant get any simpler than that. ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

excellent forum, noone listens noone... :lol:


when turko-greko meets in same room,you can wait for "hot" - "quick" environments...very peaceful,very fruitfull...We need more Turkish and Greeks in MP.net to abolish all forums. woot

We expect you to analyze your personal assessment of your country's stance against the Kurds, and your view regarding the creation of a sovereign Kurdish state.

Show some gut, baby! :lol:


I have analized it before. havent I? and u havent given me an answer about my view,just smiled...so what do u wait for more from me?

ok, lets watch "Yabancı Damat"...hey have u known anything news, about lots of Turkish TV series will be shown in Greek TVs? Our "Kurtlar Sofrası-Wolves Sofra", "Gulbahar-RoseSpring"...?

[achilles]

woot

1-1...continue...

Score keeping is good....but you still owe me your opinion...i promiss not to answer :lol:

[achilles]

I have analized it before. havent I? and u havent given me an answer about my view,just smiled...so what do u wait for more from me?

ok, lets watch "Yabancı Damat"...hey have u known anything news, about lots of Turkish TV series will be shown in Greek TVs? Our "Kurtlar Sofrası-Wolves Sofra", "Gulbahar-RoseSpring"...?

Whats the name of that hottie? Nezli? ;)

[Kontra1]

excellent forum, noone listens noone... :lol:


when turko-greko meets in same room,you can wait for "hot" - "quick" environments...very peaceful,very fruitfull...We need more Turkish and Greeks in MP.net to abolish all forums. woot

We expect you to analyze your personal assessment of your country's stance against the Kurds, and your view regarding the creation of a sovereign Kurdish state.

Show some gut, baby! :lol:

There are three different ways of adderssing this question...you have to be clear which one you're referring to.

1-A kurdish autonomy in N.Iraq.(federation)

2-An independend state in the N of Iraq

3-a larger independent state which includes half of my country.

Often you mix all these together and expect a straight answer...That's NOT possible.

Choose one and I'll be straight with you.

Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

no, her name s "Nazlı", Nazlı as a name means "so sensitive to make something". ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

damn, we havent achieved to break one thousand block, we must be more careful to be polite, we must be a little bit ugly to break record...people around dont like to see our civil manner approaches...ohh people u retard ;)

[Kontra1]

Nah, he found it. No matter what we say, he will turn the attention to the Macedonia issue. Thats all he can do. Equivocate, deceive and deny. Its really sad...yet, amusing from times to times.
:lol:

I have no problem tackling armenians,kurds and few others regarding such temas...but Greeks...they simply have no right to say anything before they stop the uppressing of the etnic Turks,Pomaks,Macedonians,Gypsies....and Albanians in their own country.

As simple as that.

Kontra1



Oh my :lol: ...well the Greeks have always been vocal and always will be. Learn to live with it, or stick in your denial world.

Again, a Turk criticizing a Greek is like a German criticizing the French for what they did in WWII....cant get any simpler than that. ;)

You're avoiding the problem here ;)


...before they stop the uppressing of the etnic Turks,Pomaks,Macedonians,Gypsies....and Albanians in their own country.

[achilles]

There are three different ways of adderssing this question...you have to be clear which one you're referring to.



How can i be clear, when you equivocate all the time? IT was about time you sat on the diplomatic table and cut to the chase... ;)

I would like your opinion on all options. Lets break this down:
1-A kurdish autonomy in N.Iraq.(federation)

The way i see it, that suits Turkey fine, and perhaps the Americans, but it entails huge population movements from Turkey to Iraq. Most likely, it will lead to a Turkish induced ethnic cleansing of your southeastern territories. Dont forget that ethnic cleansing does not necessarily mean slaughter.


2-An independend state in the N of Iraq

You have to be a bit more specific on that one. What is 'North of Iraq'?

3-a larger independent state which includes half of my country.

Thats the least realistic scenario, given that your country is the least flexible one when it comes to 'retreating' and handing things when sitting around the diplomatic table. It shall not have to be like that...An autonomous Kurdistan can be comprised by turf that belongs to different countries. Lets say N.Iraq and parts of S.E. Turkey. That sounds like a more realistic scenario although i still think that you will never give an inch of land to the Kurds. This also depends on how much pressure you will receive from the US.


Often you mix all these together and expect a straight answer...That's NOT possible.

What is not possible is getting straight to the point, when you post irrelevant things that stem either from your imagination or pure anti-Greek propaganda.

Well?

[derkrieger]

In Germany , i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
I am glad Greeks showed up. Tell me guys what are you thinking about the already proven relations between Greek Intel and Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs and above mentioned PKK. You know Oecalan had a greek (or cypriot) pass in his possession as he was caught up in Kenya.
If his name was Osama you would suck big time. But when it is about Turkey so be it, huh? After all they besieged Vienna right?
Hypocrisy at its best !!!

[achilles]

You're avoiding the problem here ;)


...before they stop the uppressing of the etnic Turks,Pomaks,Macedonians,Gypsies....and Albanians in their own country.


I am not really famous for avoiding 'problems'...quite the opposite.

Well, as i said, this thread turned out to be about the Kurds. So this is what we are going to talk about. You are more than welcomed to launch a new thread and claim that my country oppresses, any more than any other western country, its minorities.

[achilles]

In Germany , i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
I am glad Greeks showed up. Tell me guys what are you thinking about the already proven relations between Greek Intel and Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs and above mentioned PKK. You know Oecalan had a greek (or cypriot) pass in his possession as he was caught up in Kenya.
If his name was Osama you would suck big time. But when it is about Turkey so be it, huh? After all they besieged Vienna right?
Hypocrisy at its best !!!

Hello Mr. 16 posts. If you stick around a bit longer and do a bit of research , you will find out that we have beaten the **** out of that discussion.

Yeah we supported the PKK, and then, under American pressure, we handed Ocalan over to the Turkish MIT. Do your homework next time you decide to jump out from your well of morality.

[M_S]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country. But what you stated about how they deal with Kurds is not 100% correct and has a history of its own. Turkey didn't deal with the Kurds in a proper way during the period short atround the independence of Turkey. After that the Kurds felt neglected. Many years later the PKK grew and they started with terrorist acts against the Turks. But nowadays there are many Kurdish MPs, business men, artists etc. This is for what I know ...
Ignorance regarding the Kurdish problem of Turkey in especially Europe has reached a disturbing level. Every time you see reports in TV or papers you have the impression that the reigning conditions are similar to if not harsher than those of former communist states or the third reich, which however has nothing to do with the realities of a modern secular and democratic Turkey, which I happened to visit all the time due to my dissertation at the university.
First of all it is impossible to talk about a predominantly kurdish region, although there is SE Turkey. The reason why we can not talk bout it,is the fact that there are more Kurds living in the western cities of Turkey, like Bursa Adana Mersin and needles to say Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir.
If the Kurds are so oppressed how come that they are allowed to travel overall in Turkey, to flourish in their businesses and to even assume posts like presidential post (Oezal and Inonu, who are both quasi-worshipped by every lawabiding turkish citizen, whatever they ethnically are.
Secondly though it is secular in essence as a state organization, Islam plays a great role in the perceptions of a modern Turk. That being the case if a turkish citizen with a kurdish decent proposes to marry an ethnic Turk, it shall be accepted, The estimated figure of kurdih-turkish marriages are today exceeding 4 millions, how could that be the case if these people were oppressed as some here allege.
In Germany (were I am proud to live :D ) i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
If Turkey was so racist a state, why did they provide Barzani and Talabani turkish diplomatic passports in their difficult times and why did they feed hundreds of thousand of refugees who fled a sudden death at the hands of the soldiers of Saddam.
@ Kontra1 Dude i see u are a turk but you are plain stupid and even fail to give reliable info about your OWN country. Go get urself a book otherwise STFU please.
Reinhard


Turk in germany?


Alliens in Jupiter?

Turkish humor isnt the best.
If he is of turkish origin then he is probably biased. I think he is full of BS

[M_S]

They absolutely hate the Kurds and any mention at all of the Kurds (anywhere in the world) having success will bring about the flame that will soon follow this topic start. The Turks have this attitude just like a midget: They wanna be big and they can't be. They wanna show how big they are by pushing around their minorities. I think Turkey has everything a country needs to be a real world player except attitude. They truly believe they are on the top of the list and always will be. Their nationalism surpasses that of any country I have ever dealt with. Turkey wants to be a player? Here's a tip: Instead of making the Kurds live in a police state with little rights and no economic influx, how about treating them like you treat the Turks and maybe then they won't feel the need to secede. Go to Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey, and compare it to any western Turkish city. You will very quickly notice that Diyarbakir is a gigantic ****hole. There is little investment in these people whatsoever and major discrimination is a daily fact. You bring the Kurds into the modern 21st century life the western Turks enjoy and maybe they wouldn't want to leave. Go figure. As long as Turks treat Kurds like criminals, it goes to figure that some Kurds will act like criminals.It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country. But what you stated about how they deal with Kurds is not 100% correct and has a history of its own. Turkey didn't deal with the Kurds in a proper way during the period short atround the independence of Turkey. After that the Kurds felt neglected. Many years later the PKK grew and they started with terrorist acts against the Turks. But nowadays there are many Kurdish MPs, business men, artists etc. This is for what I know ...
Ignorance regarding the Kurdish problem of Turkey in especially Europe has reached a disturbing level. Every time you see reports in TV or papers you have the impression that the reigning conditions are similar to if not harsher than those of former communist states or the third reich, which however has nothing to do with the realities of a modern secular and democratic Turkey, which I happened to visit all the time due to my dissertation at the university.
First of all it is impossible to talk about a predominantly kurdish region, although there is SE Turkey. The reason why we can not talk bout it,is the fact that there are more Kurds living in the western cities of Turkey, like Bursa Adana Mersin and needles to say Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir.
If the Kurds are so oppressed how come that they are allowed to travel overall in Turkey, to flourish in their businesses and to even assume posts like presidential post (Oezal and Inonu, who are both quasi-worshipped by every lawabiding turkish citizen, whatever they ethnically are.
Secondly though it is secular in essence as a state organization, Islam plays a great role in the perceptions of a modern Turk. That being the case if a turkish citizen with a kurdish decent proposes to marry an ethnic Turk, it shall be accepted, The estimated figure of kurdih-turkish marriages are today exceeding 4 millions, how could that be the case if these people were oppressed as some here allege.
In Germany (were I am proud to live :D ) i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
If Turkey was so racist a state, why did they provide Barzani and Talabani turkish diplomatic passports in their difficult times and why did they feed hundreds of thousand of refugees who fled a sudden death at the hands of the soldiers of Saddam.
@ Kontra1 Dude i see u are a turk but you are plain stupid and even fail to give reliable info about your OWN country. Go get urself a book otherwise STFU please.
Reinhard

Turk in germany?

"Reinhard" is not a Turkish name.

Many turks cant wait to change their names.

[derkrieger]

In Germany , i had the acquintance of some former PKK rebels, who killed and pillaged villages in SE Turkey. Abd we are still sheltering these bloody terrorists. I can not imagine how we would react IF the masterminds of the london bomb attacks found asylum in, say Libya or Pakistan. We are on the other hand doing the same thing.
PKK is a terrorist organization with 37K AND more casualties written on it, a marxist leninist crime syndicate, who are in Germany running big DRUG businesses and prostitution rings. Dont tell me that these people are freedom fighters You would get scared if you see one in the dark, go to St. Pauli.this problem should be handled with an unconditional separation from that of PKK.
I am glad Greeks showed up. Tell me guys what are you thinking about the already proven relations between Greek Intel and Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs and above mentioned PKK. You know Oecalan had a greek (or cypriot) pass in his possession as he was caught up in Kenya.
If his name was Osama you would suck big time. But when it is about Turkey so be it, huh? After all they besieged Vienna right?
Hypocrisy at its best !!!

Hello Mr. 16 posts. If you stick around a bit longer and do a bit of research , you will find out that we have beaten the **** out of that discussion.

Yeah we supported the PKK, and then, under American pressure, we handed Ocalan over to the Turkish MIT. Do your homework next time you decide to jump out from your well of morality.
Look dude, I have much more serious things than writing tons of messages in a forum, just chilling !!!
Names names, my name is really Reinhard, it is one of my two names guys. I really dont get all these discussions about it. BTW ANSWER THE ****ING QUESTION!

[derkrieger]

You guys handed nothing but were man-handled !!! Such a fiasco !!!

[achilles]

Look dude, I have much more serious things than writing tons of messages in a forum, just chilling !!!
Names names, my name is really Reinhard, it is one of my two names guys. I really dont get all these discussions about it. BTW ANSWER THE f*** QUESTION!

:lol: Look at this guy...it seems i am upsetting you. Most likely, thats a sign i am right.

Are you blind? Didnt i just say that we supported Ocalan and his Worker's Party? Didnt i just tell you to look at my previous posts since all your answer are there?

Now pass me the crack pipe please...

[achilles]

You guys handed nothing but were man-handled !!! Such a fiasco !!!

You havent been having much *** lately have you?

[derkrieger]

Look dude, I have much more serious things than writing tons of messages in a forum, just chilling !!!
Names names, my name is really Reinhard, it is one of my two names guys. I really dont get all these discussions about it. BTW ANSWER THE f*** QUESTION!

:lol: Look at this guy...it seems i am upsetting you. Most likely, thats a sign i am right.

Are you blind? Didnt i just say that we supported Ocalan and his Worker's Party? Didnt i just tell you to look at my previous posts since all your answer are there?

Now pass me the crack pipe please...
I believe you would be disturbing for every decent human being. I know you would not choose being an ass-hole some are unfortunately born that way. now go back to your mama, you amateur terrorist !!

[derkrieger]

You guys handed nothing but were man-handled !!! Such a fiasco !!!

You havent been having much *** lately have you?
only a scum like you would find something in this to get ******ly aroused. Dont you have some sheeps or something down there greasy prick !!

[achilles]

Look dude, I have much more serious things than writing tons of messages in a forum, just chilling !!!
Names names, my name is really Reinhard, it is one of my two names guys. I really dont get all these discussions about it. BTW ANSWER THE f*** QUESTION!

:lol: Look at this guy...it seems i am upsetting you. Most likely, thats a sign i am right.

Are you blind? Didnt i just say that we supported Ocalan and his Worker's Party? Didnt i just tell you to look at my previous posts since all your answer are there?

Now pass me the crack pipe please...
I believe you would be disturbing for every decent human being. I know you would not choose being an ass-hole some are unfortunately born that way. now go back to your mama, you amateur terrorist !!

WTF is this guy cigkufte? :lol:

I would speculate that you are a Turk living in Germany and life does not seem to be very easy for you there....Reinhard :lol:

[achilles]

You guys handed nothing but were man-handled !!! Such a fiasco !!!

You havent been having much *** lately have you?
only a scum like you would find something in this to get ******ly aroused. Dont you have some sheeps or something down there greasy prick !!

Tsk tsk tsk...scum...now thats a shame to call me a scum...where is all the love and compassion?

[derkrieger]

--EDITED--

[Laworkerbee]

I gotta give one of these to the Turks :hug:



dude,ok, u can be referee :lol:

In that case I gotta give some to my Greek Habibi's as well :hug:

[achilles]

I gotta give one of these to the Turks :hug:



dude,ok, u can be referee :lol:

In that case I gotta give some to my Greek Habibi's as well :hug:

Hug derkrueger Laworkerbee...he seems to be in great need! :lol:

[derkrieger]

Now a hug would be good Achi,
my girlfirend went to Hungary yesterday and is gonna stay there for almost a year. :hug: Ahhhh !!

[achilles]

Derkrieger man, since you PMed me your 'real' name, you should have reminded me to give a **** about it in a couple of weeks from now, ok?

Danke ;)

[derkrieger]

Otherwise you would not believe me dude, hope you are not a hacker or sthg.
Damn I am sometimes really naive !!

[achilles]

Otherwise you would not believe me dude, hope you are not a hacker or sthg.
Damn I am sometimes really naive !!

:lol: Is this guy for real or what?

[M_S]

Look dude, I have much more serious things than writing tons of messages in a forum, just chilling !!!
Names names, my name is really Reinhard, it is one of my two names guys. I really dont get all these discussions about it. BTW ANSWER THE f*** QUESTION!

:lol: Look at this guy...it seems i am upsetting you. Most likely, thats a sign i am right.

Are you blind? Didnt i just say that we supported Ocalan and his Worker's Party? Didnt i just tell you to look at my previous posts since all your answer are there?

Now pass me the crack pipe please...
I believe you would be disturbing for every decent human being. I know you would not choose being an ass-hole some are unfortunately born that way. now go back to your mama, you amateur terrorist !!

WTF is this guy cigkufte? :lol:

I would speculate that you are a Turk living in Germany and life does not seem to be very easy for you there....Reinhard :lol:


rofl rofl rofl
Reinhard. :lol:

[achilles]

Ok, here is what Herr Reynhard has provided us with so far...

But when it is about Turkey so be it, huh? After all they besieged Vienna right?
Hypocrisy at its best !!!

Look dude, I have much more serious things than writing tons of messages in a forum, just chilling !!!
Names names, my name is really Reinhard, it is one of my two names guys. I really dont get all these discussions about it. BTW ANSWER THE f*** QUESTION!


You guys handed nothing but were man-handled !!! Such a fiasco !!!


I believe you would be disturbing for every decent human being. I know you would not choose being an ass-hole some are unfortunately born that way. now go back to your mama, you amateur terrorist !!


only a scum like you would find something in this to get ******ly aroused. Dont you have some sheeps or something down there greasy prick !!


I should say a greasy Greek…

The last comment was carefully edited, after he has been , probably, warned by someone...who knows. :lol:

Stick around, mate, you are as much fun as being a complete ****head.

[Nikitaras]

Look "Kefte" is back. It only took 20 posts before he started with the sheep jokes :roll:

[achilles]

Look "Kefte" is back. It only took 20 posts before he started with the sheep jokes :roll:

Nah, its Kontra1's alter ego :lol:

[Nikitaras]

Look "Kefte" is back. It only took 20 posts before he started with the sheep jokes :roll:

Nah, its Kontra1's alter ego :lol:

He has alot of free time, the girls don't like him.

[Laworkerbee]

Now a hug would be good Achi,
my girlfirend went to Hungary yesterday and is gonna stay there for almost a year. :hug: Ahhhh !!

Here's some California love buddy :hug:

[Umm-Qasr]

It's indeed true that most of the Turks have a feeling of nationalism that I also have never seen in any other country


Our nationalistic feelings cannot prevent us to think logical, and we havent any harm on u or someone around. Patriotism or nationalism...what u call it, we love our people,our country...and also all human being who wanna be a real friend,real peace-keeper...

and Umm-Qasr, u must know it very well than others here.







regards
CDTRFDid I say say that in a negative way? No bro. I just said what I have observed and what even Turks themselves say to me. My girl is a Turk ... ;)

[Vorian]

I am a little late in this topic but when I read things like this, I have to answer.

There were a few that talked about Cretan separatists. :lol: :lol:
Friends, I am Cretan and I assure you I have no intention to rebel against the government or even heard of anyone else who wants so. The only thing separate Crete has from Greece, is that the curch doesn't belong to the Athenian Church formally.

Secondly, you claim that if you let the Kurds they will break your country apart. If you let them leave in peace, they won't do such thing. You don't allow them to learn Kurdish language in schools and only recently was permitted the use of Kurdish in a few newspapers and media.

I suggest we lock the topic, since there are people from other countries in the forum, not only Greeks and Turks, that don't want to hear paranoid discussions about the problems of our countries.

[achilles]

There were a few that talked about Cretan separatists. :lol: :lol:

So much for the credibility of their sources. Whats next? A separatist movement from Athens? :lol: :lol:
Friends, I am Cretan and I assure you I have no intention to rebel against the government or even heard of anyone else who wants so. The only thing separate Crete has from Greece, is that the curch doesn't belong to the Athenian Church formally.

Allright, we needed a Cretan around here badly if you know what i mean ;)

I suggest we lock the topic, since there are people from other countries in the forum, not only Greeks and Turks, that don't want to hear paranoid discussions about the problems of our countries.

Nah, this thread is kindergarden. You havent witnessed our full potential...yet :lol:

[Flagg]

There were a few that talked about Cretan separatists. :lol: :lol:

So much for the credibility of their sources. Whats next? A separatist movement from Athens? :lol: :lol:
Friends, I am Cretan and I assure you I have no intention to rebel against the government or even heard of anyone else who wants so. The only thing separate Crete has from Greece, is that the curch doesn't belong to the Athenian Church formally.

Allright, we needed a Cretan around here badly if you know what i mean ;)

I suggest we lock the topic, since there are people from other countries in the forum, not only Greeks and Turks, that don't want to hear paranoid discussions about the problems of our countries.

Nah, this thread is kindergarden. You havent witnessed our full potential...yet :lol:


Let's NOT see the full potential.......keep it civil or it gets the kabosh

[Laworkerbee]

I think this thread needs one more :hug: for good measure.

[Kontra1]

There are three different ways of adderssing this question...you have to be clear which one you're referring to.



How can i be clear, when you equivocate all the time? IT was about time you sat on the diplomatic table and cut to the chase... ;)

I would like your opinion on all options. Lets break this down:
1-A kurdish autonomy in N.Iraq.(federation)

The way i see it, that suits Turkey fine, and perhaps the Americans, but it entails huge population movements from Turkey to Iraq. Most likely, it will lead to a Turkish induced ethnic cleansing of your southeastern territories. Dont forget that ethnic cleansing does not necessarily mean slaughter.

This is what's happening in reality right now(an autonomy witin the Iraq)Including Turkey,no one except the sunni arabs in Iraq, has objections to it.kurdsish pop.in Turkey(except the seperatist terorists) sees their future in a EU member Turkey(they still have high hopes :lol: ) and wants to be part of that rather than so far unknown future of N.Iraq.The borders between Turkey and Iraq is open and anyone wants to move accross will not be stopped.However, I've recently seen an interview with barzani on CNN Turk where he says he's not very enthisiastic about such movement.

2-An independend state in the N of Iraq

You have to be a bit more specific on that one. What is 'North of Iraq'?

An independent state on its own.Totally apart from Iraq...a whole new state between Turkey,Syria,Iran and Iraq. You look at the map and decide yourself how realistic such thing can be(remember: all countries around opposes such thing and they'll immediatelly shut the borders)

3-a larger independent state which includes half of my country.

Thats the least realistic scenario, given that your country is the least flexible one when it comes to 'retreating' and handing things when sitting around the diplomatic table. It shall not have to be like that...An autonomous Kurdistan can be comprised by turf that belongs to different countries. Lets say N.Iraq and parts of S.E. Turkey. That sounds like a more realistic scenario although i still think that you will never give an inch of land to the Kurds. This also depends on how much pressure you will receive from the US.

Syria and Iran won't give a land to them either.Some one has to do it for the kurds by force...that means a whole new war in the area.Regarding the Turkish attitude; as I mentioned above,large majority kurds in Turkey sees the country as a whole as their own country also.They say; as much as Diyarbakir a kurdish city,so is Istanbul,Antalya and Ankara too...and we have no objections to this and we feel proud that they feel like this.In 1920s during the liberation war,they've fought side by side with Turks against you(Greeks,French,Italians,British(Australia,N.Zeland)Russians and enemy from within(armenians,Islamic extremists)..and won the war.This was done with the heavly defeded remnants of Ottoman army and civilian pop, of the Anatolia with the leardeship of Atatürk.

Anyone tries to something similar today,will find a 1 million strong army against themselves(not to mention couple mil.reserves and millions of armed civillions)...it'll be a one helluva bloody war

I've just realized how easy it must be for you to give someone else's country to someone else...it's like treating your friends to a dinner with someone else's credit card.Maybe next time we can talk about how we can help the Macedonian minority in N.Greece join the Republic of Macedonia they're neighbouring with ;)

I hope you've found some answers to your question.

BTW; We're celebrating the 83rd anniversary of our victory against the enemies mentioned above. 30 August 1922.

Kontra1

"SHOULDER TO SHOULDER...IN THE PATH OF ATATÜRK,UNDER THE ORDERS OF THE TURKISH NATION"

http://www.jandarma.tsk.mil.tr/duyurular/Omuz.jpg

[NewsMan]

Any Kurds in that poster? LOL!

[NewsMan]

The issue isn't PKK... it's the fact that Turkey treats MILLIONS of non-PKK Kurds with the same resolve as if they're terrorist. TW, PKK rebels did no such thing in the sense of "pillaging" villages. Yes they murdered teachers and other government agents, yes they attacked security services... yes they blew up buses in Istanbul, but the fact is, the only pillaging done was by the Turks when they uprooted more than 2,000 Kurdish villages and forced moved them to ghettos in metropolitan centers.

[NewsMan]

PS - Could you people please stop quoting entire pages of drivel? Just stick to the meat and gravy.

[NewsMan]

Here's just some of Turkey's recent history:

Thousands of villages in Kurdistan have been destroyed, the inhabitants were murdered or driven away. The rural areas of Kurdistan are depopulated. A humane life in the cities has become impossible, the struggle for survival has rendered other thoughts a luxury. Hundreds of operations were carried out in the Kurdish areas in 1996 again against the PKK. Every time a village was completely destroyed, the Turkish media proudly reported a "new success in the struggle against terrorism". When dozens of civilians are shot, they talk about a victory against the guerrilla. The food supplies for the civilian population are being rationed to prevent food is given to the guerrilla. Thousands of people, even 15 year old children, are forced to become "village guards". But even with these methods of annihilation the Turkish military is not able to win the struggle against the guerrilla. More and more people are going into the mountains to confront this system. In 1996, the Turkish military even had to endure criticism by the loyal media why 2.000 heavily armed soldiers were needed to attack a single village...


Houses and villages are not only destroyed in the Kurdish areas. In the major cities, especially in Istanbul, the houses of the poorest among the poor, the Gececondular, are being attacked and destroyed. According to Turkish law, a house which is built on state owned land overnight becomes the legitimate property of the builder. Contrary to this law, also in 1996 countless Gececondu-houses were demolished by the state, leaving the inhabitants, whose most valuable (and often only property) is their house, without any means.


February 1, 1996, Politika Solidarity with Sivas continues


The Platform for Solidarity with the People in Sivas made a press statement on the Ozgurluk Meydani in Bakirkoy in which they protested against the depopulation of the area, the arrests and the torture. 63 villages have been depopulated in the area of Sivas. 111 primary schools were closed in Divrigi, 63 in Zara. 500 peasants, among them 75 village mayors, were arrested and tortured. Some 300 villages were surrounded by the state security forces. At present there are around 200 soldiers and members of the Special Units in the villages of Baloca and Dikmecay... "We demand an end to the oppression of the population and an end of the embargo against the villages. We demand that these villages are not depopulated any longer and that the governor of Sivas will be suspended", the statement reads.


February 1, 1996, Politika 11 Villages raided in Sivas


During the last 5 days the state security forces raided 11 villages in the area between Sivas, Divrigi, Zara and Kangal. 20 peasants, among them mayors as well, were arrested. Three peasants are still missing. It is reported that temporary guards were deployed in several villages in Divrigi. The soldiers are conducting house searches. The peasants are not allowed to leave the villages. After sundown, they are not even allowed to leave the house.


September 12, 1996, Cumhuriyet - Sabah - Zaman - Aksam Gececondu houses destroyed again


Yesterday the police destroyed 28 houses in Buyuksehir in Akatlar Karanfilkoy. The inhabitants resisted the 1.000 policemen who invaded the neighbourhood, using barricades and bricks.


September 14, 1996, Cumhuriyet Food embargo against Tunceli


Mayor Mazlum Aslan stated the whole city was surrounded. A delegation of representatives of the Human Rights Association (IHD) and democratic organisations went to Tunceli to monitor the situation. The delegates requested information from several official institutions about the food embargo and executions.


October 19, 1996, Kurtulus Gececondus destroyed in Eskisehir


Like in the Gececondular (slum areas) of Istanbul, the houses of the poor are destroyed in other cities as well. In Eskiseher, 21 houses were destroyed by the state. The inhabitants said the state had promised to leave their houses in peace, but this promise had been broken.


October 29, 1996, Kurtulus Protest against the food embargo in Dersim


On October 12, the district mayors of Dersim and Tunceli staged a protest in Guven Park (Ankara) against the food embargo in Dersim. Banners were shown with the texts: "We want to return, are we not human beings?" and "We demand compensation". A message for the prime-minister was drawn up as well, demanding the end of the food embargo in Dersim. It is also said that the people who were driven away from Dersim want to go back, they do not want to be treated as criminals any longer. Furthermore they demand that the massacres are being stopped.


November 1, 1996, Kurtulus Houses demolished in Eskisehir again


In the last two months, 54 Gececondu houses were demolished on orders of the city administration of Odunpazari. During the last two days, 8 other Gececondu houses were demolished in Tepebasi. Hundreds of people are now homeless, thrown out on the streets, with winter approaching.


December 25, 1996, Demokrasi Again demolition of Gececondu houses


After an eviction order, 400 houses were appointed to be smashed in Sarigazi in the neighbourhood of Yenidogan. The inhabitants of the neighbourhood resisted and attacked the Gendarmerie. 12 people were arrested by the police. The inhabitants threw up barricades to prevent the demolition vehicles from entering the area. Around 200 people defended the barricades. Nevertheless, around 30 houses were smashed. Around 500 Gendarmes took part in the demolition act. 10 women climbed the roof of a house and resisted the Gendarmerie. The barricades remained intact until the demolition vehicles left the area. Around 150 people stood guard at the barricades until dawn.


December 30, 1996, Demokrasi Lice isolated from the outside world


Because the inhabitants of Lice refuse to become village guards, Lice was occupied by hundreds of soldiers. Passports are being confiscated by the mayor, and the people are not allowed to leave the town. Journalist and a delegation from Italy with Dara Delt Antonia, Gaetano Lo Porto and Dana Frisullo weren't allowed to enter the city. On December 20, 200 people were taken into custody in Diyarbakir-Lice and they're not yet released. There has been no word from 7 people who have been tortured. The health situation of 8 people who are tortured is getting worse. They were asked to become village guards, but they refused. Even 15 year old children are forced to become village guards. The soldiers are trying to force the people and try to learn them how to use guns. In case the people refuse, they are beaten up with sticks.


December 31, 1996, Demokrasi Delegation in Lice attacked by the police


The police attacked a delegation in Lice which wanted to talk to inhabitants who are tortured to become "village guards". 104 men in Lice were taken into custody, tortured and forced to join the village guards. A delegation of journalists, unionists and representatives of several human rights associations was hindered by the police in Lice to speak to the people who had been released. The assertion by the governor that nobody was forced to become a village guard could be disproved despite the police attacks against the delegation. Delegation members were able to speak to 6 people who showed the torture marks on their body. The delegation also witnessed that people in custody were still being tortured.


PS - Village Guards were the solution to make Kurds kill Kurds instead of Turkish soldiers

And there's much more....

The Kurds are a large and distinct ethnic minority in the Middle East, numbering some 25-30 million people. The area that they have inhabited--referred to on maps for centuries as "Kurdistan"--spans modern day Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. Half of the Kurds reside in Turkey, where they comprise over 20 percent of the Turkish population.

Modern Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal (better known as Atatürk--"father of the Turks"), enacted a constitution 70 years ago which denied the existence of distinct cultural sub-groups in Turkey. As a result, any expression by the Kurds (as well as other minorities in Turkey) of unique ethnic identity has been harshly repressed. For example, until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language--although widespread--was illegal. To this day, any talk that hints of Kurdish nationalism is deemed separatism, and grounds for imprisonment.

The Turkish government has consistently thwarted attempts by the Kurds to organize politically. Kurdish political parties are shut down one after another, and party members are harassed and imprisoned for "crimes of opinion." Most famously, in 1994 Leyla Zana--who, three years prior, had been the first Kurdish woman elected to the Turkish parliament--was sentenced to 15 years for "separatist speech." Her party was banned. More recently, in June the leaders of the pro-Kurdish People's Democracy Party (HADEP) were sentenced to several-year prison terms for allegedly having ties with the outlawed PKK guerillas. The state prosecutors' evidence consisted largely of press releases found in the HADEP offices from a news agency close to the PKK.

Adding to the grievances of Turkey's Kurds is the economic underdevelopment of the southeast. The Ankara government has systematically withheld resources from the Kurdish region. As a result, there are two distinct Turkeys: the northern and western regions are highly developed and cosmopolitan, part of the "first world," while the south and east are truly of the "third world."

The disparity and repression led to the formation of an armed separatist movement, the PKK, in 1984. While the majority of Turkey's Kurds do not openly support separatism from the Turkish state, many do support the PKK, as the only force fighting for broader Kurdish cultural, economic and political rights.

The state immediately responded to this threat with increased force, deploying some 300,000 troops in the southeast at an annual cost of $8 billion. In addition, the Turkish armed forces instituted a system of "village guards," paying and arming Kurds to keep the PKK guerillas out of their villages. Villages that refuse to participate in the guard system face demolition by the Turkish military, while those that go along suffer under harsh reprisals by the PKK.

The war escalated dramatically in the early 1990s. Between 1984-91, an estimated 2,500 people had been killed. Over the next four years, that figure shot up to 20,000. Some 3,000 villages have been destroyed by the military in an effort to rout out PKK sympathizers, creating more than 2 million refugees.

[derkrieger]

Ok, here is what Herr Reynhard has provided us with so far...

But when it is about Turkey so be it, huh? After all they besieged Vienna right?
Hypocrisy at its best !!!

Look dude, I have much more serious things than writing tons of messages in a forum, just chilling !!!
Names names, my name is really Reinhard, it is one of my two names guys. I really dont get all these discussions about it. BTW ANSWER THE f*** QUESTION!


You guys handed nothing but were man-handled !!! Such a fiasco !!!


I believe you would be disturbing for every decent human being. I know you would not choose being an ass-hole some are unfortunately born that way. now go back to your mama, you amateur terrorist !!


only a scum like you would find something in this to get ******ly aroused. Dont you have some sheeps or something down there greasy prick !!


I should say a greasy Greek…

The last comment was carefully edited, after he has been , probably, warned by someone...who knows. :lol:

Stick around, mate, you are as much fun as being a complete ****head.
Dude you can believe it or not but i edited it without having been warned, because it was way rude to say greasy greek in so generalizing a way due to the fact that you are personally a scum, who may not and should not represent a whole nation.

[Kontra1]

The issue isn't PKK... it's the fact that Turkey treats MILLIONS of non-PKK Kurds with the same resolve as if they're terrorist. TW, PKK rebels did no such thing in the sense of "pillaging" villages. Yes they murdered teachers and other government agents, yes they attacked security services... yes they blew up buses in Istanbul, but the fact is, the only pillaging done was by the Turks when they uprooted more than 2,000 Kurdish villages and forced moved them to ghettos in metropolitan centers.

Haha...

You're so ignorant :lol:


Yes they murdered teachers,yes they blew up buses in Istanbul

I'm sure inyour civilized part of the world you'd welcome a whole town of fanatic muslims who sees OBL as their savor in that country and harbours hundreds suicide bombers ;)

Although the numbers it is responsible for displacing is hard to quantify, the PKK is undoubtedly directly responsible for significant internal displacement that has occurred in Turkey. Among its civilian targets have been local political figures, such as mayors, and teachers, who teach the Turkish language [111]. The PKK's principal target appears to have been the village guards and their families."
http://www.db.idpproject.org/Sites/IdpProjectDb/idpSurvey.nsf/wViewCountries/486AF6EB12CA7325C1256AB200380C5D

Indiscriminate and other arbitrary killings

The PKK have also claimed responsibility for acts of indiscriminate violence in which civilians, including children, were killed and maimed.

In June 1993 they bombed the house of Mehmet Yalçin, a member of the Social Democratic Populist Party (SHP), in Suruç, near Sanliurfa. Mehmet Yalçin's mother and his 10-year-old daughter Devran Yalçin were killed in the attack.

The PKK have planted bombs in public places, posing an indiscriminate threat to civilians. On 25 January 1994 a six-year-old girl, Gülistan Çelik, was killed by a bomb planted in the Diyarbakir governor's office. In the same month Ruhican Tul, a journalist on the Turkish Daily News, was killed by a bomb planted on a bus. In June 1994 Joanna Griffiths, a British citizen, died from injuries sustained in a bombing at a tourist resort for which the PKK claimed responsibility.

In March 1995 and again in April 1996, PKK leader Abdullah ™calan publicly threatened that the organization would intensify bomb attacks on certain civilian targets in Turkey and abroad. While claiming to respect common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, the PKK has continued to execute captured village guards, while its declared intention to attack civilian targets suggests that, contrary to the assurances given to Amnesty International, the PKK would be prepared to resume indiscriminate killings of civilians.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/turkey/turk3.htm






Kontra1

[NewsMan]

Kontra, you do amaze me. You seem rather bright... but then again you don't. The PKK problem grew out of the repression from your people, a repression that became legitamized and even more severe after the formation of the PKK. While I empathize with the Turks, I sympathize with the Kurds because your country severly limits their cultural identity and existience. You want the Kurds to stop fighting, invest in their future so they believe they have one.

[Kontra1]

Kontra, you do amaze me. You seem rather bright... but then again you don't. The PKK problem grew out of the repression from your people, a repression that became legitamized and even more severe after the formation of the PKK. While I empathize with the Turks, I sympathize with the Kurds because your country severly limits their cultural identity and existience. You want the Kurds to stop fighting, invest in their future so they believe they have one.

....and I don't think you have the capability to read and understand my previous posts :)

Back in 1923 after a 5 year long struggle against the invading emparialists,it wasn't easy to create a whole new nation under a one flag and one national identity.The Ottoman Empite had left 26 some different ethnic groups to new republic and one couln't just say "O.K everone just go ehead and crete your own system" No other group except the kurds wanted to rip the repuplic apart.They started in the second year of the rep. with a demand for creating an islamic state within.

Mustafa Kemal spent the rest of his life transforming Turkey into a modern, western nation. Few leaders have ever shaped a nation as quickly and permanently as he did. On October 29, 1923, he declared Turkey a republic, with himself as its first president. Five months later he began his program of secularization, by abolishing the caliphate. Within a month Moslem religious colleges and law courts followed the caliph into oblivion. Thus, Turkey became the first Moslem country to practice Western-style separation of church and state.

In 1925 a treaty with Britain gave the oil-rich vilayet of Mosul to Iraq. The same year saw a Kurdish rebellion in the part of Turkey nearest to Iraq, led by Seyh Said, hereditary chief of the Naksbendi dervishes. The Kurds had been loyal subjects of the Turkish sultan, who was also "Commander of the Faithful," but they wanted nothing to do with a secular Turkey. Martial law was proclaimed in thirteen provinces, and the legal definition of treason was extended to include "the use of religion as a political instrument." Within three months the revolt had been stamped out, and Kurdish hopes for an independent Kurdistan were dashed, as they would be in Iraq and Iran later. A side effect of this was that all Sufi lodges and tombs of the saints were closed for the remainder of Kemal's lifetime.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/ne15.html#Ataturk

They were CRUSHED!

PKK had an different approach....a marxist-leninist communist state...a big no no in a NATO ally country against Soviet Union ;)

Later, they got smarter and started to play on the "ethnic rights issue" to win the symphaty of the west.

Why don't you show the same symphaty to the ethic Macedonians in Greece? they're not even allowed to be called like that..they're not allowed to call themselves that....they just don't EXIST like that. Is their only fault they haven't started a armed struggle? I hope that happenes one day and we'll see how civil and sincere you all are. ;)

Kontra1

[achilles]

I hope you've found some answers to your question.

Not really. Simply because you are biased, misinformed and crippled that you cannot actually articulate a VIABLE solution regarding your oppression against the Kurds. If your military oligarchy thinks like you do, which by all chances is the case, learn how to live with resistance movements like the PKK. It can be THAT simple...


BTW; We're celebrating the 83rd anniversary of our victory against the enemies mentioned above. 30 August 1922.

:lol: You have beaten the unorganized army of the newly created Greek state, which had just started to heal from the 400 year long Ottoman cancer, AFTER you had your asses kicked by most of the peoples you had been oppresssing during your decadent presence as imperialists.
Plus, lets not forget that Europe at the specific point in time abandoned the Greek struggle for political reasons that i wont analyze here.

It seems that everybody has to celebrate something. By all chances its an ego-booster.


Happy anniversary baby! :lol: :lol:


Dude you can believe it or not but i edited it without having been warned, because it was way rude to say greasy greek in so generalizing a way due to the fact that you are personally a scum, who may not and should not represent a whole nation.

:lol:
Hey be careful, cause the forum is under a clean-up process and a zero tolerance kind of mentality, so 'trashcans' might be shown the way out...


Next time try to have the balls to leave your original post as it is, allright Reynhard? ;)

[Kontra1]

I hope you've found some answers to your question.

Not really. Simply because you are biased, misinformed and crippled that you cannot actually articulate a VIABLE solution regarding your oppression against the Kurds. If your military oligarchy thinks like you do, which by all chances is the case, learn how to live with resistance movements like the PKK. It can be THAT simple...


BTW; We're celebrating the 83rd anniversary of our victory against the enemies mentioned above. 30 August 1922.

:lol: You have beaten the unorganized army of the newly created Greek state, which had just started to heal from the 400 year long Ottoman cancer, AFTER you had your asses kicked by most of the peoples you had been oppresssing during your decadent presence as imperialists.
Plus, lets not forget that Europe at the specific point in time abandoned the Greek struggle for political reasons that i wont analyze here.

It seems that everybody has to celebrate something. By all chances its an ego-booster.


Happy anniversary baby! :lol: :lol:


Dude you can believe it or not but i edited it without having been warned, because it was way rude to say greasy greek in so generalizing a way due to the fact that you are personally a scum, who may not and should not represent a whole nation.

:lol:
Hey be careful, cause the forum is under a clean-up process and a zero tolerance kind of mentality, so 'trashcans' might be shown the way out...


Next time try to have the balls to leave your original post as it is, allright Reynhard? ;)

Hey...I'm not expecting a terror supporting biased greek...or anyone else for that matter to understand what I'm saying.What's important is what Turkish nation believes in...and we will continue in that path no matter what others says.We've done it in the past...we'll do it again ;)

The Greco-Turkish War

The Turks nearly suffered the same fate at Allied hands as the Arabs did. That they didn't was due to the willpower and drive of one man, the hero of Gallipoli, Mustafa Kemal. During the last months of the war he had led the Turkish Third Army in a successful withdrawal from the hills of Samaria. After the war ended, many Turkish troops were loose in central and eastern Turkey, far away from the reach of the nearest Allied force. The Allies told the sultan to send a Turkish general into the region, to pacify it and receive the surrender of those troops. Kemal used his military record to get himself appointed to that job, as Inspector General of the Ninth Army. On May 16, 1919, he sailed to Samsun, a Black Sea port, to begin a mission that turned out to be quite different from what the sultan and the Allies had in mind. And not a moment too soon; the day before he sailed the Greeks began a project of their own--the conquest the Aegean's eastern shore--by landing troops at Smyrna.
Kemal arrived to find that the Ninth Army no longer existed, and immediately began organizing a new force. He also held congresses at Erzerum and Sivas, where he announced his intention of making a radical break with the past. Since the sultan was now a prisoner of the Allies, he argued, any command issued by him was no longer valid. The Turkish people would have to create a new state to save themselves from the Allies, especially the Greeks. Angora, a textile-producing town right in the center of the Anatolian peninsula, became the capital of Kemal's nationalists. Where Kemal was in charge, the sultan could no longer command--and neither could the Allies.

It took a whole year and a half for the Allies to agree on what to do with Turkey. They unveiled the final document, the Treaty of Sevres, in May of 1920. Most of the Turkish homeland, the Anatolian peninsula, would have to be left to the Turks, of course, but President Wilson felt that the Armenians deserved a state of their own in the northeast. In addition, the French wanted the land next to their Syrian mandate (Cilicia), and the Zone of the Straits was declared an international area, where only Allied troops could be stationed. Finally, the Allies rewarded the Greeks richly for their small participation in World War I: they got all of Turkey-in-Europe except Constantinople, and an unspecified amount of land around Smyrna. To nobody's surprise, the sultan signed it and Kemal rejected it. Kemal did not miss the loss of the Arab lands, but under no circumstances would he give anything to the Greeks, traditional enemies of the Turks. However, the Greeks had been expecting that and had already transferred the bulk of their army to Smyrna. At the beginning of 1921 they launched an offensive, pushing eastward almost effortlessly.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/Venizelos.jpg

A Greek propaganda poster shows how much of Turkey the Greeks expected to get after World War I. Had these boundaries gone into effect, Greece would have gained all the land that belonged to the Byzantine Empire in the late thirteenth century, before the Ottoman Empire got started (see Chapter 12). A picture of the Greek prime minister, Eleutherios Venizelos, appears in the top left corner.

Kemal now found himself facing enemies in every direction, while he was hard pressed just to clothe his troops (he required every home to supply a kit of underwear, socks and shoes). He survived because of successful diplomacy on the eastern and southern fronts. Italy and the new Soviet Union gave him aid, and while he had to give most of Transcaucasia to the Soviets, he did get to keep the Kars region of Armenia. That gave him a free hand to eliminate the Armenian separatists--there would be no Armenian state while he had any say in the matter! To the south, the French were concerned about their Syrian problem and purchased Kemal's neutrality by handing over Cilicia to him.
Meanwhile in the west, the Greeks were coming closer, advancing two-thirds of the way to Angora before they were stopped. But stopped they were, on the banks of the Sakarya river. There, late in the summer of 1921, Greeks and Turks battled along a sixty-mile front for twenty-two days and nights. Kemal's tactic was to divide his army into individual units, each operating independently of the others, so that there was no Turkish line of defense to break. "There is no linear defense," he explained. "There is a surface defense, and the surface is the entire territory of the nation." Fighting for their lives and country, the Turks wore down the Greeks, and by the end of the year the scales had tipped Kemal's way.

The following summer, Kemal ordered a counteroffensive that broke the Greek army quickly and completely. Perhaps half of it managed to get back to Smyrna, but the Turks closed in fast and the Greek dream of reviving the Byzantine Empire ended in a hurried and humiliating evacuation. Smyrna was captured violently on September 9, and over half the city, including all of the Greek and Armenian quarters, was burned down. The final death toll, in military and civilian casualties, may have been as high as 100,000.

Kemal now turned his attention to the Straits, where his troops confronted a British force at Chanak, on the east shore of the Dardanelles. Faced with a Turkish army that was clearly spoiling for a fight, the Allies decided to get out. The Greeks had decided by this time that they wouldn't even try to hold onto eastern Thrace, so the part of the Treaty of Sevres that dealt with Turkey's western frontier became a dead letter; the Turks simply re-occupied everything they had held in 1914.

Mustafa Kemal's last opponent on the road to total victory was the sultan. He bullied and persuaded his government to abolish the sultanate, and on November 17, 1922, the sixty-one-year-old Mohammed VI went into exile on a British ship. His cousin stayed behind to take the post of caliph (now a powerless job), and he died in Italy four years later, after making an unsuccessful bid to replace Hussein as king of the Hejaz. Thus, 700 years of Ottoman history ended.

[WARPIG]

Out of respect for the mod who moved this, I let this thread live. It started out badly and has continued further down the path. I've had enough.