Russian Stuff

[RomanS]

We took these photos last summer in the Central Army Museum of Russia in Moscow.
Since most of you guys here get into modern stuff, enjoy.
Not many of you will have a chance to travel to Russia and see this yourselves, so I want you guys to see it here.

This is just a tiny little portion of the museum. Its the biggest in Russia. Has everything from Mongols to the latest Chechen war.

Small portion of armour and planes outside
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum1.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum6.jpg

Modern TOYS ( we got to play with some of them on the same trip in Russia)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum11.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum9.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum10.jpg

Here you can see SNR. Shooting knife. It has a barrel and shooting mechanism in the handle to shoot special ammo. While we had private time with Russian Special Forces, we had a chance to fire one. The ammo is expansive. Government spends $50 on each round. It was suprisingly accurate.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum4.jpg

This one still ****s with me. There is a half of an AK-74, that was picked up from the hill 776 in Chechnya, after the fight of 90 Russian paratroopers vs thousands of muslim terrorists.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum5.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum7.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum2.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum3.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum8.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum12.jpg

[mustamato]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum3.jpg

I like when museums put up the stuff like that. In the correct context (with the soldier using the weapon, what kind of other equipment he has, and so forth), and not just on a wall with precise and accurate hard facts.

[Javehn]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum12.jpg

What kinda uniformes the left guy have ???
I am affraid we soon gonna have those uniforms :( :(

[RomanS]

Old Soviet VDV jumps
Today they have a better version called GORKA

[Javehn]

Damnit , at first i thought it is IDF soldier ! Spooky ..

One question . What is that thing on the tip of the barrel ?? And why doesn't it has the "Flash disperser" ?
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum3.jpg

[George W. Bush]

You mean the muzzlebreak? I don't understand the question

[RomanS]

yes, i dont get it either :|

[RealUltimatePower]

Crayyyzeee Russians

[intelligenzija]

Awesome pictures! thank you Permskii !
I was in the "Artilleriisky Musee" in St. Petersburg but I didn't manage to make photos :(

[anonymous individual]

These photoes are simply the best! :)

[REMOV]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/museum9.jpg
I wonder if I would live so long to see the first Russian battalion equipped only with AN-94's ;) I've seen many pictures of this assault rifle at different exhibitions, museums and commercials but never in the real action. An expensive mistake?

[George W. Bush]

AN-94 is only used by special forces only.

It's not the official rifle for the whole army and for a good reason. The AN-94 is a much more advanced and complex design than the AK which increases time of training and cleaning.

Either that or the Russians can't afford it rofl

[memphiz]

These photoes are simply the best! :)

[REMOV]

AN-94 is only used by special forces only.Yeah, I've also seen this commercial. But do you have any pictures from real combat zones?

It's not the official rifle for the whole army and for a good reason. The AN-94 is a much more advanced and complex design than the AK which increases time of training and cleaning.I'm not agree. The all modern individual weapons are as simple and user friendly as only possible, and this is no explanation at all. If AN-94 is much more advanced and complex design that you must learned it slowly it isn't good assault rifle. You know, the basic course of fully maintain the AKMS took about several hours. Tell me, what is so complicated in AN-94?

[Marmot1]

AN-94 is only used by special forces only.Yeah, I've also seen this commercial. But do you have any pictures from real combat zones?

It's not the official rifle for the whole army and for a good reason. The AN-94 is a much more advanced and complex design than the AK which increases time of training and cleaning.I'm not agree. The all modern individual weapons are as simple and user friendly as only possible, and this is no explanation at all. If AN-94 is much more advanced and complex design that you must learned it slowly it isn't good assault rifle. You know, the basic course of fully maintain the AKMS took about several hours. Tell me, what is so complicated in AN-94?

Full name is AN-94 ABAKAN as far as I remember????


Interesting thing having this in museum and not in combat unit....

And about this half AKMS doesn't russina propaganda stated that there is only couple hundreds of "bandits" in chechenya??? and now we have 90 vs THOUSANDS.......

[Kitsune]

From an aesthetic point of view all this stuff is pretty lame...

p-)

[Russian Texan]

To all those with questions regarding AN 94 and why it is not replacing AK series - look up what 16OBrSpN had to say about it and he is not the only one with such an opinion, I know another guy who had a chance to play with it and made similar comments.
Russian military is currently testing several new designs and among them AEK 971, although many fail to see why and what's the point of replacing AK family.

[Kingpin]

Abakan - not rifle name. It's codename for whole project dedicated to development replacement to AK family. AN-94 - just one in variety of new designs.

[REMOV]

To all those with questions regarding AN 94 and why it is not replacing AK series - look up what 16OBrSpN had to say about it and he is not the only one with such an opinion, I know another guy who had a chance to play with it and made similar comments.Russian, opinion of anybody doen't matter. The Avtomat Nikonova (AN-94) was officially adopted to Russian Army in 1993.

Russian military is currently testing several new designs and among them AEK 971, although many fail to see why and what's the point of replacing AK family.AEK-971 and other models in project Abakan was previously tested over 10 years ago!

Yeah, I know and probably Russian soldiers which testing the AN-94 also that AEK-971 is better weapon (mechanism, design (the frontsight don't move, like in AN-94), weapon unfolding - damn! - the AK-74 has only 7 parts, the AN-94 12 with wheel, steel cord, two spiral springs etc. The worst thing some of them you can put wrongly!), but it internal mechanism (balanced recoil, counterbalance) would better suit to the light automatic rifle or even GPMG.

In my opinion AN-94 was an expensive mistake, which Russian don't own up, thats all. It was a dead end, thats why the other weapons are tested. But they are only a little bit better that AK-74, and as you wrote, the change of assault rifle is pointless.

[Golani68]

Anyone here fired the AN 94
I hear it fires at 1800 rpm

[REMOV]

Abakan - not rifle name. It's codename for whole project dedicated to development replacement to AK family. AN-94 - just one in variety of new designs.Well... AN-94 it isn't just one variety, but the winner of Abakan project. The competition was solved in 1993, when AN-94 (or ASM (Avtomat so Smieshonym impulsem otdachi, Modernizirovannyy) how this rifle was called before official was named as AN-94).

And yeah that were also interesting models, like:

http://www.militech.sownet.gliwice.pl/bullpup/weapon/_TKB-146(600).jpg
Stiechkin's TKB-146

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/aek971/aek971camo.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/assault/aek971_545.jpg
Kokhsharov's AEK-971 (modern design)

http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/antenna/dc/weap/rifles/tkb0111.gif
Korobov's TKB-0111

BTW - nice picture - comparison of AK-74, AN-94 and AEK-971
http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/aek971/aek01.jpg

[Kingpin]

Anyone here fired the AN 94
I hear it fires at 1800 rpm

First two rounds only.
REMOV, It does not matter what was oficially adopted in 1993. This means only that high ranked commanders now have rights to order such gun. But
1. Money issue
2. Goodwill issue. 10 OBr SpN already wrote why he personally do not want it. And i suppose many commanders share this opinion.

Ka-50 also was adopted long time ago and what? Now we have only limited number of such helos.

[REMOV]

First two rounds only.It isn't quite true. Every two round which are fired with such ROF using 2rd burst mode option or only first two rounds when rifle is set to full auto and the rest at 700 rpm. Besides, this is theoretical rate of fire.

It does not matter what was oficially adopted in 1993. This means only that high ranked commanders now have rights to order such gun. Kingpin, it some kind of joke? In every normal country, when weapon system won the contest (the tests started in 1987 - ASM, TKB-0146 and TKB-0111) and it is officially adopted that means goes to mass production, and it isn't just "right to order". And it is also not true that commanders ordered the guns but politicians do it!

Tell me, what nation officialy adopted a new gun (after long trials) as a new army model and... not produced it? You know any?

1. Money issueSure, but there is not single Russian battalion, company even, equipped with such guns (or I never heard about this). You try to convince me that Russia has no money to buy about 300 new assault rifles?

2. Goodwill issue. 10 OBr SpN already wrote why he personally do not want it. And i suppose many commanders share this opinion.So, who tested the weapon and who adopted it? The same commanders? ;)

Ka-50 also was adopted long time ago and what? Now we have only limited number of such helos.But they in service, and AN-94 is only a paper tiger. Yeah, tested in Chechnya, all five rifles or seventeen?

[Kingpin]

Ok. i'll answer in other way. To equip any unit wih AN-94 we need General Staff decision to spend money on this. They didn't issue it yet. And AFAIK defence budget in 2004 doesn't include this position This is about commanders i told before.

[Russian Texan]

People, what are you arguing about? AN 94 is not an "official AK 74 replacement", if it was - I'm sure we would see them more often in hands of russian soldiers, after all it was "adopted" back in '93. The simple fact is that no one yet invented anything better, in terms of overall performance, than AK family...
AEK 971 reportedly increases combat effectiveness by 15-20%.

[REMOV]

AN 94 is not an "official AK 74 replacement", if it was - I'm sure we would see them more often in hands of russian soldiers, after all it was "adopted" back in '93.Naturally it was adopted! Try to argue for example with Max Popenker (your fellow countrymen and the author of some famous website), if you want (here is different opinion (http://andreas.narod.ru/an94.html)). I sure that you convinced him, that YOU are right not him... ;)


Source: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-r.htm
Почему победа досталась именно этому образцу - можно спорить лишь имея на руках полные результаты официальных испытаний, но так или иначе, в 1994 году автомат Никонова был официально принят на вооружение Российской Армии под обозначением АН-94. Изначально планировалось, что АН-94 со временем заменит в армии все автоматы АК-74 и АКМ, однако в свете последних веяний и с учетом особенностей конструкции АН-94, этот автомат стал оружием элиты Российской Армии и МВД.

Source: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm
The ASN was tested among the many other prototypes and eventually won the trials, and was consequently adopted. Originally it was intended to replace most, if not all, AK-74 rifles in the Russian service, but it soon turned out that the complete replacement is impossible due to the economical (mostly) and some other reasons. At the present time the AN-94 is considered as the "professionals' choice", and is used in limited numbers by the elite forces of the Russian Army, police and Internal Affairs Ministry.The bolded fragments are very gently expressed opinion that the counstruction itself was a mistake.


The simple fact is that no one yet invented anything better, in terms of overall performance, than AK family...Sure, and you strongly belived in such fact, I pressume? ;)

AEK 971 reportedly increases combat effectiveness by 15-20%.Yeah, I saw this commercial too. The question is: does it make sense to adopt another assault rifle slightly better than AK-74 or not? ;)

[REMOV]

To equip any unit wih AN-94 we need General Staff decision to spend money on this. They didn't issue it yet.And they didn't do that for last 10 years? Even a single infantry battalion to show them in TV? Come on, try to think not repeat old excuses... In the same time Russia bought brand new AK-74M's for military units.

The AN-94 is nothing more than propaganda success, even Russian special units refuses to use such gun. Well, it has in fact interesting interial mechanism, but thats all.

[Russian Texan]

Remov, may be I am a little bit slow today, but what are you exactly trying to say?
Another thing: you cite "world guns" regarding AN 94, I guess in order to support whatever point you are trying to make, but at the same time choose not to believe info on the same website regarding AEK 971... ;)

Did you ever fire AEK 971, I don't think so but, I have read several comments by people who did, including 16OBrSpN, and say it is much easier to control on full auto. Guess whom am I inclined to believe...

Regarding "AK being the best overall", you see, it is not my opinion :) That statement comes from people who used firearms in real life firefights in Afgan, Chechnya(1 & 2), Caucasus, Pridnestrovie, etc...

The thing about me is that I am a "hands on" type of a guy, so you can give me hundreds of pages with numbers, tables, ratios, graphs, calibers, etc. that were written by "experts" who fired a gun on a range... it is not going to sway my opinion until I hear from people who were in a combat and say: "This gun is the best" like they say about AK and AKMS, simple like that.... :)

[REMOV]

Remov, may be I am a little bit slow today, but what are you exactly trying to say?Nothing special, a fate of the AN-94.

Another thing: you cite "world guns" regarding AN 94, I guess in order to support whatever point you are trying to make, but at the same time choose not to believe info on the same website regarding AEK 971...R.T. again you trying to attribute me the words I've never written (like in other discussion)? Max just copied out one of AEK's leaflet (this one with 10-15%). I just wrote that I saw it, and thats all. Are you always try to find a "hidden meanings" of every sentence that other people made?

Did you ever fire AEK 971, I don't think so but, I have read several comments by people who didSo? I also read a several comments and...?

and say it is much easier to control on full auto. Guess whom am I inclined to believe...Again and again, you face the accusations I naver did. So tell me, WHERE and WHEN I wrote something about control AEK in full auto mode?

Oh, never? Boy, you must learn answer the real question not the ones that you fantasize, ok? And really don't know what kind of people you belives, but I'm convinced that you have a problem with some understanding.

Regarding "AK being the best overall", you see, it is not my opinion That statement comes from people who used firearms in real life firefights in Afgan, Chechnya(1 & 2), Caucasus, Pridnestrovie, etc...Yeah sure. And the people using FN FAL said that is the best overall because they used them in Ireland, Falklands etc. And the M16 is the best overall because some people used it in Iraq (1 & 2), Vietnam etc. Don't you see, that is really stupid argument? Regardles of imaginary crowds confirmed you opinion ;) Sorry, boy, but it is not the standard of arguments I try to answer.

Example: So, if 12 000 people said that M16 is better than the 11 500 people that same the same thing about the AK-74 (all of them were in wars) that you believe the first ones, right? Interesting logic, R.T., I must admit ;)


The thing about me is that I am a "hands on" type of a guy, so you can give me hundreds of pages with numbers, tables, ratios, graphs, calibers, etc. that were written by "experts" who fired a gun on a range... it is not going to sway my opinion until I hear from people who were in a combat and say: "This gun is the best" like they say about AK and AKMS, simple like that.... Yeah, sure. But you must really learn the word: comparison criterion, that is only way to comparise things, such as assault rifles. It helps you in jugde things in your life. And most of the people you talked uses only one weapon (i.e. only model of assault rifle), so the don't meet the comparison criterion at all.

So... I'm grateful that you share me what is a base of your beliefs system, but I also must affirm, that it has nothing in common with reality ;) The reality is based on numbers and statistic (every rifle is designed using maths not belives, trust me) not personal opinions...

[Dmitri]

Remov, stop stirring up ****, you got nothing better to do? Start talking **** when Poland invents something like AN-94 or AK.

every normal country, when weapon system won the contest (the tests started in 1987 - ASM, TKB-0146 and TKB-0111) and it is officially adopted that means goes to mass production, and it isn't just "right to order". And it is also not true that commanders ordered the guns but politicians do it!
No you knuckle-head, if its adopted, that means it CAN be officially produced, it doesn't mean that's going to be the ONLY weapon that will be used. There are too many AK variants floating around, I'm sure all of them were adopted, but they don't have to completely replace each other.

Tell me, what nation officialy adopted a new gun (after long trials) as a new army model and... not produced it? You know any?
And not produced?? Are you mental? You want me to get you some pics of Spetsnaz firing it?? Where do you think they got the rifles? :bash: Did they just appear or were produced? If it wasn't mass-produced, that doesn't mean crap. If they gave some SF units AN 94's to see what happens and after a while they got overall negative comments, why would they try to equip the rest of the army with it?

The simple fact is that no one yet invented anything better, in terms of overall performance, than AK family...
Sure, and you strongly belived in such fact, I pressume?

Its for damn sure better than anything your country ever produced, so just zip your holster, I see jelousy is getting the best of you...

[Russian Texan]

Remov, stop taking phrases/statements out of contex and twisting them.


R.T. again you trying to attribute me the words I've never written (like in other discussion)? Max just copied out one of AEK's leaflet (this one with 10-15%). I just wrote that I saw it, and thats all. Are you always try to find a "hidden meanings" of every sentence that other people made?
You have used those sources in your arguement which implies that they reflect your views and opinions.

Yeah, I saw this commercial too. The question is: does it make sense to adopt another assault rifle slightly better than AK-74 or not?
This comment clearly indicates that you are sceptical about AEK 971 performance while people who fired it have very different opinion.

Oh, never? Boy, you must learn answer the real question not the ones that you fantasize, ok? And really don't know what kind of people you belives, but I'm convinced that you have a problem with some understanding.
Remov, don't even think about bringing up the issue of "answering real questions" or shall I remind you "Mr. kossek" thread...

So... I'm grateful that you share me what is a base of your beliefs system, but I also must affirm, that it has nothing in common with reality The reality is based on numbers and statistic (every rifle is designed using maths not belives, trust me) not personal opinions...
Remov, you are numbers person, theoritician...and that explains all. It is not just about AK, it is about guns ingeneral: undoubtedly you posses a wealth of knowledge regarding firearms but all of that statistical, comparison, charted data matters very little ones "Murphy's Laws" come into effect.
To you reality is numbers and charts, to me reality is opinions, experiences of people like TriggerPuller, 16 OBrSpN, Argyll, etc. and Murphy's Laws.... and that is the difference between us: you believe in paper and I believe in reality :)

[RomanS]

this thread got hijacked

[REMOV]

if its adopted, that means it CAN be officially produced, it doesn't mean that's going to be the ONLY weapon that will be used.You know the main reason of Abakan program, which you evidently don't know was made an assault rifle to replace the AK-74.

There are too many AK variants floating around, I'm sure all of them were adopted, but they don't have to completely replace each other.No, officialy adopted was only 7,62mm AK/AKS, 7,62mm AKM/AKMS, 5,45mm AK-74/AKS-74U (then AK-74M). Thats all (it comes from logistical reason and standardization). It is not very complicated, right? The next offcially adopted assault rifle was... AN-94.
[/quote]And not produced?? Are you mental? You want me to get you some pics of Spetsnaz firing it?? Where do you think they got the rifles? [/quote]Boy, the first thing you must do to calm down. And I also don't curse you, even I don't agree with your ekhm... arguments. The mature debateis do that, don't be a child.

And yes, this rifle is not currently produced and the pictures you got are only from demonstration and press publications. The AN-94 was produced only in limited numbers and it isn't used by any formation of Russian Army (small numbers were tested by some SF units). Try to find a a one picture with 10 or more soldiers equipped with this gun. Got any? ;)

Did they just appear or were produced?They just appeared.

If it wasn't mass-produced, that doesn't mean crap. If they gave some SF units AN 94's to see what happens and after a while they got overall negative comments, why would they try to equip the rest of the army with it?You lost your point. The AN-94 was adopted to replace AK-74. The SF rejected of it. The construction is not reliable. Even Russian wrote about it.

Its for damn sure better than anything your country ever produced, so just zip your holster, I see jelousy is getting the best of you...Bla, bla, bla... ;)

You know, this is typical argument of person which not have any (read Schoppenhauer "Eristic" to understand). Nationalism made you blind. If you expected from my the same childish answer, forget it. And if you're interested what construction made my country open a new thread and just ask ;)

[REMOV]

Remov, stop taking phrases/statements out of contex and twisting them.You doing it so well, that I've never compete with you ;)

You have used those sources in your arguement which implies that they reflect your views and opinions.Nope. It your personal feeling. I ask again - have you ever searched hidden meanings of every sentence?

This comment clearly indicates that you are sceptical about AEK 971 performance while people who fired it have very different opinion.You even don't remember what you wrote! You - not me - wrote that AEK is ONLY 10-15% better than AK-74, right? Do you understand the comment or not? 10 to 15% it means SLIGHLY better. The numbers you found speaks for themselfs.

If you still don't understand those numbers means that AEK is better assault rifle than AK-74 (which I wrote before once or twice not only in this thread), but the question is that those slightly difference is so great to adopted a new rifle. And yes, in my personal opinion AEK is nice, and good assault rifle (which also I wrote before in this tread, which you don't find).

And - once again - what different opinion than mine tell you your mythical crowd, sorry, the people you persuade us that you know and recognize as your authority (just becouse they shoot or told you that shoot from weapon which you never touch). It was one or two person, nobody else, right? ;)

Remov, don't even think about bringing up the issue of "answering real questions" or shall I remind you "Mr. kossek" thread...LOL, try to do it. I laugh once again. You method of disscusion is not to argue with other arguments but to invent your own, and polemize with them. This behaviour I observed always when people don't agree with your... well... lets call it arguments. That's all. But if you want - I will clearly show it you again at Mr. Kossek thread.

Remov, you are numbers person, theoritician...and that explains all. No, R.T., another mistake. Part of my higher education was technical univeristy, and you cannot finish such studies without REAL PRACTICE with REAL THINGS. And I know both sides - personal opinions and numbers.

The only way personal opinions can be taken into consideration is statistic. And thats the way military test of any weapon in any country were made. The soldiers from testing units after looooooooong training and learning of using a new weapon got forms and must fill it, with their thoughts and feelings. I read those forms for Colt M1911 for instance, nice reading by the way. So, the voices of one or two persons really doesn't counts.

For example, I used a Glock, and this pistol completely don't suit me. So, I go and tell you my feelings about it. Hey, it's plastic, you can fill magazine in wrongly direction, I have big hands and problems with this, this and this. And tell me - what is a value of such ONE personal opinion. Is a Glock good or bad weapon? And this is the way you come to your friends opinions (and a little bit of nationalism and pride). I cannot act in such way. For me such opinion means nothing, sorry. I hope I explained why.

It is not just about AK, it is about guns ingeneral: undoubtedly you posses a wealth of knowledge regarding firearms but all of that statistical, comparison, charted data matters very little ones "Murphy's Laws" come into effect.No, R.T. mistake again. You're a humanist, right? ;)

In every product made at the same production line you have slightly differences, small but sigificant diffenert things. Thats why one car of the same model works well and another is just the queen of service station. The same is with weapons. Two identical assault rifles made in the same time can have a different features. And again - the only way to judge qualiyt of all weapons of this kind is statistic. You note the MRBF (Mean Rounds Between Failure) factor and others. The Murphy Laws of any kind are also counted into such numerical description.

To you reality is numbers and charts, to me reality is opinions, experiences of people like TriggerPuller, 16 OBrSpN, Argyll, etc.Also wrong. But we don't speak about our personal feelings but about the world of guns. So I use the proper, numerical way to describe it, not my personal opinions which are sometimes very differnet that numerical ones. And I told you this fact honestly.

and that is the difference between us: you believe in paper and I believe in realityAgain, your feelings with have nothing common with reality. You know, the women often describes the world using feelings and men often uses technical way. So maybe you got just a part femine brain? ;)

And the modern world, or reality, Russian Texan, is created by technicans with numbers and charts not by people with feelings. You know regardless of military specialization you always must have math knowlege - as a sniper, artillerist, pilot etc. Thats the way world works ;)

Any other questions?

[anonymous individual]

this thread got hijacked

REMOV, stop hijacking people's threads.

I am completely agree with what Russian Texan said about REMOV. It is annoying.

[Dmitri]

Did they just appear or were produced?
They just appeared.
I guess you still believe in Santa Claus, he probably just dropped some An-94 to soldiers on Christmas..I don't think the whole point gets through your thick head. AN94 was never claimed by anyone here to be the new super weapon for the army, it is one of the options to use, at least for Spetsnaz, but although it shoots pretty cool, they decided that they can do better without it, so why spend the money on it anyway?? And why shouldn't it be in the museum, like you ask? Its a pretty cool design that is not very widespread, why not? So just stop worrying about it, you are bringing this kinda crap in every thead you see it in... :slap:

[GazB]

I would say something meaningful about this thread but the pics aren't working.. :-(

Regarding the AN-94 not being mass produced at the moment... that is not something new. BMP-3s after some serious use were found to be not that great and have not been made in huge numbers, though they have been exported in fairly large numbers. They have a nubmer of very good features and a number of not so good features. Equally the Ka-50 has not been mass produced as the requirements changed soon after it was accepted... and there was never money to be spent on large numbers of them anyway. Rifles are much cheaper, but if the existing rifle currently does a good job then the cost of buying a new type of rifle as well as spares and support and training is not really going to outweigh the benefits.

REMOV, you make interesting mention of a potential LMG version of the AN-94 mechanism. There is also LMG versions of the AK-108 reported, but I have never heard of RPK-74 replacements.

[Ian H]

Anyway, nice piccies.

This also bears no relevance to the thread, but I'm going to start a Russian class as soon as I get the info back from the uni. I have immense interest in and admiration of the Russian/Soviet experiences throughout history, and would very much like to visit at some time. If/when I do, and I get to that museum, you'd better get more camera film imported, cos I'm going to clean you out!
And I thought Duxford was big.
:D :D :D

[mustamato]

BMP-3s after some serious use were found to be not that great and have not been made in huge numbers, though they have been exported in fairly large numbers. They have a nubmer of very good features and a number of not so good features.

Just curious. Any examples?

[Ian H]

Yeah, interesting question, because I remember reading ages ago that MI6 had had something to do with getting one of these to Britain, and it was found to be far superior to anything the West had. I'm sorry but I can't verify this or give you my source because I can't remember it. It was a newspaper report, The Guardian I think.

[GazB]

Well I can break it down into good points and bad points:

Good.

Nice balance (weight wise) with the armour at the front, turret near the middle and engine at the rear it doesn't tend to nose dive like the BMP-2 and -1 did in water... especially entering or leaving waterways.

Firepower is comparable to early 1960s tanks with a 4km range tube fired guided anti tank missile system that allows fire on the move capability and no one has to expose themselves from armour to reload or fire it. It has a 30mm cannon which is quite useful for most battlefield targets and a large HE round for the 100mm gun that gives it unrivalled direct firepower to remove bunkers or sniper positions. It also has either 2 PKT machine guns or 2 30mm automatic grenade launchers in the front corners of the hull which are aimed by fibreoptic sights by two gunners sitting either side of the driver in the front of the vehicle.

Armour is semi modular and can be upgraded to RPG proof from any (horizontal) angle.

Can be fitted with Arena active anti missile defence system.

Has a good engine and a better power to weight ratio than the BMP-1.

Can be airdropped from Il-76 aircraft.

Bad.

The new increased range (7km vs 4km) 100mm HE-Frag rounds were found to be a little too powerful and cracked the turret race when first tested... changes have been made to correct that.

Most obvious and largest problem is the positioning of the engine. Because of where it is placed to get out from the rear troop compartment you have to open four doors... two in the roof that let you walk over the engine compartment and the two rear doors to get out the rear. Very much like the BMD series that have the engine at the rear.

[GazB]

I should also mention that the fire control system is rather good for an armoured personel carrier. Normally they aren't that great but due to the completely different ballistic characteristics of the coaxial MG (PKT) the high velocity 30mm cannon (2A72 chain gun) and the medium velocity 100mm rifled gun a fire control computer was necessary, and as the 100mm main gun launched missile is laser guided a laser range finder is fitted as standard. The Ballistic computer is designed for use against ground targets and aerial targets. This extends the effective range of the 30mm gun to 2,000m in the anti armour role and 4,000m in the anti personel role. Current model 100mm HE Frag rounds can be used out to 7km and the new ATGM has a range of 5,000m, though it is twice as expensive as the older missiles like the AT-4 and AT-5 used on the BMP-2.
Unlike the earlier missiles however the new missile can be fired on the move and can be used against slow moving aerial targets like helos.

[GazB]

Hooray! the Photos are working!

Very nice.

The first photo has some very interesting stuff.

The aircraft are the mig-23 and the Mig-21 (left to right).
the vehicles are from right to left:

Suka, 76.2mm self propelled gun based on the T-34, T-34/85, KV-2, KV-1, T-34/76, Looks like a medium tank... I think it is a T-28... it is too small to be a T-35, BT-7, T-26, and an amphibious T-37.

From the left hand side a BMP-1 and a BMD-1.

The Second photo shows an SA-8A, then an SA-6, a ZSU-23-4 and the vehicle to the extreme right is a very unusual and not widely known system called SS-12 Scaleboard. (Similar to Scud but much longer range of about 900km and a large 1 megaton warhead.)

I especially liked the third photo... I have seen lots of images of the RPG-29 but never realised how big it is... its huge! (standing up to the left of the image). I also liked the TM-83 in the bottom right of the picture... (the large round thing). Have you used these two things PermskiiOMON or 16 OBr SpN?