Im Memoriam - Russian Special Forces who died in Beslan

[Igor01]

It has been a year since they died, here are their names and how they went.

Rest In Peace.

The Directorate "A" of the Special Purpose Centre of Russian Federal Security Service (Alfa)

Major Aleksandr Perov
Team Leader. Was supporting the evacuation of children. Covered three kids with his own body when a grenade went off. Sustained terminal injuries but right until his death he continued to command the team.

Major Vyatcheslav Malyarov
Shielded his comrades from the terrorist fire with his own body. While mortally wounded, didn't leave the fight, wounded two terrorists and stopped their advance.

Warrant Officer Oleg Los'kov
When a group of terrorists attempted to break out of the school building while covering themselves with hostages, he stood in their way saving the hostages and covering them with his own body. Sustained terminal injuries but did not leave the fight, up until his death he continued to provide fire support for the team.

The Directorate "V" of the Special Purpose Centre of Russian Federal Security Service (Vympel)

Subcolonel Dmitry Razumovsky
Took the point and was the first to storm into the room from where the terrorists were shooting at the hostages. Sustained terminal injuries.

Subcolonel Oleg Il'in
Was covering childrent and a wounded MChS officer by drawing the terrorists' fire onto himself. Received a shrapnel injury but didn't leave the fight. When a group of terrorists attempted to flee, stopped them with fire, eliminating two of them before he was killed. By sacrificing his life he saved the other members of the assault team.

Major Andrey Vel'ko
Was in the first assault team. Received mortal wounds covering the hostages.

Major Roman Kasatonov
Took on two terrorist armed with a machine gun while saving children from the basement of the school and was killed.

Major Mikhail Kuznetsov
Evacuated 20 wounded hostages, mainly children. Was providing cover for the assault team. Took on two terrorists, eliminated both but himself succumed to his injuries.

Leutenant Andrey Turkin, born 1975


[i]Warrant Officer Denis Pudovkin, born 1976
Was carrying out wounded children under fire. Then entered the building with the assault team, while covering a female hostage eliminated a terrorist but sustained terminal injuries himself.

The Centre of Airmobile Rescue Detachment of the Russian Ministry of Extreme Situations (MChS)

Valeriy Zamaraev, Deputy Chief of the Search and Rescue

Dmitry Kormilin, Chief of the Diving Centre of "Central Rescue"

[mudbunny]

The families of these men should be proud. They are heroes and I'm sure were welcomed into the gates of heaven. They offer a sliver of sunshine unto the darkness that was the Beslan massacre.

R.I.P,
Brothers

[1Cie GevGn]

RIP :(

A couple of questions;

-How come there are so many high ranking officers?
-Any more info of the 2 last victims of the MChS? They seem very high ranking.

[Cpt. Spaulding]

Rip to the fallen

[Igor01]

RIP :(

A couple of questions;

-How come there are so many high ranking officers?
-Any more info of the 2 last victims of the MChS? They seem very high ranking.

All personnel in both Alfa and Vympel are officers. Most of the candidates selected for service in these units are army officers already. Those non-officers who are selected are awarded the rank of Warrant Officers (Praporschik). Later on if they continue their education they move up to officer's rank.

The two MChS personnel were killed when they with other two MChS guys were collecting dead bodies from near the school. At that time the big IED inside the school went off and the terrorists started shooting and throwing grenades. It was previously agreed with the terrorists that MChS will evacuate the bodies. The tensions were very high, the terrorists had already executed many hostages by that point so the risk was high, so these guys despite being high ranking decided that they had to go on this mission themselves.

These are Valeriy Zamaraev and Dimitry Kormilin:

http://www.mk.ru/numbers/1258/p-4-3.jpg

[plodey]

I'd say the rescue operation was a stuff up of epic proportions.

RIP to the children.

[NicNZ]

Noble deaths all

[1Cie GevGn]

RIP :(

A couple of questions;

-How come there are so many high ranking officers?
-Any more info of the 2 last victims of the MChS? They seem very high ranking.

All personnel in both Alfa and Vympel are officers. Most of the candidates selected for service in these units are army officers already. Those non-officers who are selected are awarded the rank of Warrant Officers (Praporschik). Later on if they continue their education they move up to officer's rank.

The two MChS personnel were killed when they with other two MChS guys were collecting dead bodies from near the school. At that time the big IED inside the school went off and the terrorists started shooting and throwing grenades. It was previously agreed with the terrorists that MChS will evacuate the bodies. The tensions were very high, the terrorists had already executed many hostages by that point so the risk was high, so these guys despite being high ranking decided that they had to go on this mission themselves.

These are Valeriy Zamaraev and Dimitry Kormilin:

http://www.mk.ru/numbers/1258/p-4-3.jpg

Thanks

[beNder]

RIP

[Chuckie]

RIP, can't imagine what it was like. A few terrorists surrounded by children.

[Lokos]

I'd say the rescue operation was a stuff up of epic proportions.

:roll:

Mate, seriously, did you just hear from someone that the rescue operation was a 'stuff up of epic proportions' and decided that it sounded good?

Lokos

[Mr Hat]

It was simply a "No Win" situation. Too many hostages, too many terrorists. ****e handling of the crowd of parents. It was difficult enough spotting the terrorists because the parents were trigger happy and had weapons of their own. I hope the gov learns from these mistakes. This particular atrocity disgusted my like no other, because of the large no of children. RIP to the fallen.

[boy1000]

Igor01

Thank you for the information.

To the spectators I would use some lines to describe especially ALFA. I have some years been knowing ALFA also on a tactical level. On the individual ALFA operator they can compete with Western operators. I work with US English French, and other SpecOps oeprators, and if you have to say something bad of the managment and the tactics are not up to date.

I pay high respect to the individual operators of ALFA.

[Dominique]

Just out of curiousity, which Russian SOF units were involved in the rescue? (and as a side note, I hope that the terrorist that were involved in this are slowly roasting in hell :fork: )

[Dima-RussianArms]

I have some years been knowing ALFA also on a tactical level.

Really? Wow...
So how did you come into knowing "A" on a "tactical level" (whatever that means)?

[Musashi]

R.I.P. to the fallen.
There are Western body armours, which are able to resist a 7,62x39mm round and 7,62x51mm from a greater distance. What about Russia? Had the operators similar armours, but there were too many hits in each armour?

[Dima-RussianArms]

R.I.P. to the fallen.
There are Western body armours, which are able to resist a 7,62x39mm round and 7,62x51mm from a greater distance. What about Russia? Had the operators similar armours, but there were too many hits in each armour?

They did wear any.
Its was a CQB battle with machine guns fired and grenades thrown at point blank range.
Body armour would just slow them down.

What happened wasn't a prepeared action, it was a spontaneously put together and executed rescue operation after bombs started going off.

Unprecedented losses during unprecedented situation.

[tony6]

RIP to all who fell.

[Igor01]

R.I.P. to the fallen.
There are Western body armours, which are able to resist a 7,62x39mm round and 7,62x51mm from a greater distance. What about Russia? Had the operators similar armours, but there were too many hits in each armour?

The Russian do have similar body armour, all special forces are equipped with it. The problem with this particular operation was the fact that the hostage rescue plan that was worked out was never given a go-ahead by the authorities. The big IED suspended in the basketball hoop went off and the proverbial **** hit the fan when most of the A and V gusy were in the HQ, as soon as they heard that all hell broke loose they grabbed their weapons and rushed to the buses.

They never had time to grab the body armour or even their kneepads. They drove so fast to the school that they caused several traffic accidents on the way (no serious injuries). That's partly why the first assault team had so many casualties, they knew they'd take bullets and shrapnel without the body armour but their first priority was to save the hostages.

One can say what they want about Putin, the war in Chechnya and the like but the special forces guys acted like true and selfless heroes, with professionalism, courage and honour of the highest kind.

[Musashi]

R.I.P. to the fallen.
There are Western body armours, which are able to resist a 7,62x39mm round and 7,62x51mm from a greater distance. What about Russia? Had the operators similar armours, but there were too many hits in each armour?
[...]One can say what they want about Putin, the war in Chechnya and the like but the special forces guys acted like true and selfless heroes, with professionalism, courage and honour of the highest kind.
Marcin Kossek, a Pole who train Russian special forces said exactly the same.
You have an article (in Polish) about a brave Russian Lt. First Class. http://www.greendevils.pl/rozne/historie_prawdziwe/iwan/Ivan.html You should understand over 50% of the text as you have already known the Latin alphabet. Polish W is like English V.

BTW
Your English is damn good. I have to use dictionary very often to read your posts and my English is not the worst. Are you an English teacher/student, former spy ;) or are you living in the U.S.A.?

Otnoshenya,
Krzysiek

[Dima-RussianArms]

Marcin Kossek, a Pole who train Russian special forces said exactly the same.


:lol:
Kossek :lol:
That guy again,
Sorry to burst you bubble, but it already had been established that Mr. Kossec had simply visited "Vityaz'", met with Lysjuk, had few drinks and was allowed to fire some weapons.

[Igor01]

You have an article (in Polish) about a brave Russian Lt. First Class. http://www.greendevils.pl/rozne/historie_prawdziwe/iwan/Ivan.html You should understand over 50% of the text as you have already known the Latin alphabet. Polish W is like English V.

BTW
Your English is damn good. I have to use dictionary very often to read your posts and my English is not the worst. Are you an English teacher/student, former spy ;) or are you living in the U.S.A.?

Otnoshenya,
Krzysiek

Thanks for the article Krzysiek, I'll try reading it (would have been much easier if you guys just used Cyrillic :P ) If the consonants combinations prove impossible for me to wade through I'll ask my friend who's Polish to translate it for me.

Thanks for your compliment regarding my English, I myself often find it sorely lacking and wish that I could just express myself in Russian. I've studied English in Russia and spent a number of years abroad, I now live in Canada (but go back often and spend a fair bit of time in Russia).

[Musashi]

Marcin Kossek, a Pole who train Russian special forces said exactly the same.


:lol:
Kossek :lol:
That guy again,
Sorry to burst you bubble, but it already had been established that Mr. Kossec had simply visited "Vityaz'", met with Lysjuk, had few drinks and was allowed to fire some weapons.
Ah, btw... according to him the vast of "Alfa" and "Vityaz" stayed in Moscow during the operation in Beslan, because the Russian athorities suspected the terrorist operation in Beslan had been aimed at disctracting attention from possible much larger operation in Moscow. A quite well informed guy, doesn't? ;)
And what do you Dymitr think about Jacek Pałkewicz? Does he organize survival camps for Spetsnaz (as it is shown in the Polish TV) or just drink vodka? :)

[Igor01]

Ah, btw... according to him the vast of "Alfa" and "Vityaz" stayed in Moscow during the operation in Beslan, because the Russian athorities suspected the terrorist operation in Beslan had been aimed at disctracting attention from possible much larger operation in Moscow. A quite well informed guy, doesn't? ;)


There are nine departments (otdel) in the Centre of Special Purposes (both A and V combined), one from each A and V are always in Chechnya (they rotate), so they had 7 departments which is well over 200 operatives. I doubt that there was need to send so many officers to Beslan, perhaps that was also the reason why the majority of Alfa and Vympel guys stayed in Moscow. But it's possible that Kossek was made privvy to things that are not common knowledge, so his explanation could be true too.

[PeterG]

Don't know if this is actually true, but i read somewhere that some of the russian SF casualties were actually shot (accidentally) by armed civillian bystanders (!) who also joined in the firefight when all hell broke loose..I have nothing negative to say about Russian soldiers, but i find it a bit odd that a proper perimeter wasn't established around the school.

I have nothing but respect for the troops who ignored their own safety and rushed in when everything came apart.Many of them died.They all did their best to save as many hostages as possible.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Ah, btw... according to him the vast of "Alfa" and "Vityaz" stayed in Moscow during the operation in Beslan, because the Russian athorities suspected the terrorist operation in Beslan had been aimed at disctracting attention from possible much larger operation in Moscow. A quite well informed guy, doesn't? ;)
I would be impressed if I haven't read similar statement in the Komsomol'skaya pravda newspaper ;)

And what do you Dymitr think about Jacek Pałkewicz?
I think nothing of him because I don't know who he is.


No one is doubting that Mr Kossek knows some people from Interior Ministry SF but so do I :lol:

I am sorry but what you are saying is either:
a) Another attemp of Poles to makes themselves feel good and important
b) Mr. Kossek is simply BSing you guys (eggagerating what really went on) for the purpouse of PRing himself.
c) Both a & b

The thing is that people that field of work like to keep low profile and don't run around giving interviews to newspapers who, when and how they train.

We can talk about it for a long time but the simple reality is that foreigners are allowed nowhere near "A" & "V" operations. Why - I suggest you use common sense.

But thanks for bringing back the memories and making me laugh again.
I need to find that thread where one of you guys claimed that he was awarded by the Russian President for having something to do with rescuing hostages at Dubrovka, then there was another funny one when Remov posted TV stills of Belarussian KGB and claimed it to be Kossek training FSB's "A".
rofl

[Musashi]

And what do you Dymitr think about Jacek Pałkewicz?
I think nothing of him because I don't know who he is.

http://www.palkiewicz.com/
Then click Expeditions.

I am sorry but what you are saying is either:
a) Another attemp of Poles to makes themselves feel good and important
b) Mr. Kossek is simply BSing you guys (eggagerating what really went on) for the purpouse of PRing himself.
c) Both a & b
Come on, it's "a" and just only "a". As I consider you a clever guy, I can't comprehend how you could doubt in that and wrote something more. Don't you know your point "a" is our second nature? I am disappointed now p-)

[Dima-RussianArms]

http://www.palkiewicz.com/
Then click Expeditions.
Thank you for the link, very interesting site and very interesting person.
That guy sure travels a lot to some intersting places.
Forgive me for being a little slow today but what does "survival training with astronauts" have to do with CT tactics?
Am I missing something?

Come on, it's "a" and just only "a". As I consider you a clever guy, I can't comprehend how you could doubt in that and wrote something more. Don't you know your point "a" is our second nature? I am disappointed now p-)

I really wish we could move on from all these prejudices, complexes and insecurities...
But it will never happen, will it?

[redfox0035]

It has been a year since they died, here are their names and how they went.

Rest In Peace.

Leutenant Andrey Turkin, born 1975
[I don't currently have data on his death]

http://mk.ru/numbers/1286/p-4.jpg

Spetsnaz commandoes have unenviable lot. Fame comes to them only after death, though each and every one of them deserves monument during the life time.

Who were they – who covered the innocent children with they own bodies? Four out of eleven were bestowed by Hero of Russia star…after death.

One of them was Andrey Turkin. Call sign ‘Cherkes’.

He could get on with everyone, that was a special talent. Just getting started – and they are friends forever. Wherever he found himself, there were comrades, friends, fellows.

He was born on Ural, grown up in Krasnodar region among Cossacks, and served in Transbaikalia and Middle Asia. Enrolled in “Vympel” after Army, in 1997. As draftee Andrey served with Border Guards, and got into combat on Tadjikistan-Afghan border.

Not you, who search for Spetsnaz.

Spetsnaz is searching for you.

After Army Andrey came to home stanitsa, and met his pal from school, former VDV. He told Andrey about strange veterans, who’d come to his Paratrooper’s division in Pskov, and were looking for specific soldiers. In April, 1997 they both became “Vympel” members.

Former commander, Sergey Shavrin (“Vympel” group, also Hero of Russia star holder), said us now – Andrey won his sympathy from the very beginning. Among from being top-level soldier, true elite unit professional, he was very communicative, very thrifty, very reliable. “I knew, if he’s asking how your business goes, it wasn’t the mere formality, he was really concerned about the people”.

Just a brief extract from a statement of service: "...2000 – Suvorov medal; Medal for life saving; 2002 – Order of merit for the country, II class with swords..." Only those who were in combat know the price for this truly soldiers’ medals. And just a little episode from the countless special operations: when one of the team members was blown up on a mine field, Andrey Turkin was the one came for help, even if he knew it was a cluster, and death tooth, that couldn’t be neutralized, are lying everywhere waiting for the prey.

…September, 3, his assault team entered through the gym. After close examination, did understand they step over the bodies – they were everywhere. Andrey and his support – Alexander B. - were cut off from the team by the mass of hostages, people were seeking escape, rushing at every direction. The gym was on fire, the whole set-up was hidden by puffs of smoke. However they made out the essential – the terrorist, covered by the corner, was killing people with short bursts. The neutralization was inevitable, but scum came out with a defensive grenade at hand. There was no time to think. Already wounded (bullet torn under the vest), Andrey leaped up to terrorist, fell upon him binding his hands. In the combat fever no one, including the hostages saved by Andrey, did not hear the grenade explosion.

[Telnyashka]

yeah this thing was just a freak thing.

stupid terrorists set of the bombs without any warning. not much you can do when they just start killing hostages.

[Hugh Jardon]

I recently had someone tell me that there was no such thing as a selfless act. These fine people are solid proof that the statement is not true.

Godspeed to them. Cherish their memory always, they are truly rare.

[tony6]

Dima:
I'm not one of Mr.Kossek fans but AFAIR AdAm posted photo with him receiving some medal from Vitiaz commander.
Was it for drinking vodka or something?

There (afetr 5 minutes in google:)
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_medal_wywiad/Marcin_Kossek_medal_wywiad_2.jpg
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_medal_wywiad/Marcin_Kossek_medal_wywiad_3.jpg
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_medal_wywiad/marcin%20kossek%20seminarium%20moskva%202.jpg
Drinking vodka with Russian AT operators:
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_medal_wywiad/marcin%20kossek%20seminarium%20moskva%201.jpg
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_interaktywny_wywiad1/marcin%20kossek_alfa_1.jpg
"Alfa" operators:
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_interaktywny_wywiad1/marcin%20kossek_alfa2_700.jpg
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_interaktywny_wywiad1/marcin%20kossek%20vest%20demo%20600.jpg
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_Arsenal/marcin%20kossek_Lysiuk.jpg
I can't find that photo with him receivinf this decoration. I'm sure someone will post it. I don't know how much of it is true but I believe it was not for 'hanging around' with some SF dudes.
Just my five cents.

[tony6]

Aaaaa-there You go:
http://www.specops.com.pl/kontakt/Marcin%20Kossek/marcin_kossek_Arsenal/marcin%20kossek%203%20Arsenal%2002%202005.jpg

[James]

Semper Fi.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Dima:
I'm not one of Mr.Kossek fans but AFAIR AdAm posted photo with him receiving some medal from Vitiaz commander.
Was it for drinking vodka or something?


Thank you for illustrating my point :lol:

Sorry man, it is not a medal, it a "memorable badge" - something akin to a souvenier.
Now lets take a look at the paperwork that accompanies this "award".

Apparantely it was given to Mr. Kossek during his last visit to Russia (may 2005) and not by anyone but by the President himself!
Oh, sorry, correction by the "President of the anti-terrorist association"...
Should I really explain that a badge given out by the head of some association for the completion of the antiterrorist course is not exactly the same as official state medal/award?

The pictures are real, the men on the far right is very real: Lysjuk - father/first commander of SpN MVD "Viytyaz".
Also real is the fact that Mr. Kossek is an AT exchange student, who travels the world and takes classes from different outfits.

Maybe I should go take a course @ Blackwater, take couple of pics and then tell everyone in Russia that I trained US SF, what do you think?

Tony, man, you can read Russian, so why do you post this "evidence"?
:lol:

[tony6]

Yes I can read Russian and as I told You before-I'm not one of his fans.
I argued lately with them in one of the Polish SF forums:)
But to be straight:
1) I'm not sure if this "badge" in the picture is the same which he received from Vitiaz commander.
2) the guy is something more than ex-Blackwater worker and without any doubt he's good at his business.
3) he has pretty good contacts with Russian SF units (I saw his photos from some Alfa guys also) and those contacts are far more then traditional "vodka drinking"

For me: the guy is very good SWAT instructor and definitely-he is also good at self-commercial. He knows how to sell himself in that business.
That's it.

BTW:
I'm sorry for hi-jacking Your Beslan post.
It wasn't my intention.

[Dima-RussianArms]

[quote="tony6"]
1) I'm not sure if this "badge" in the picture is the same which he received from Vitiaz commander.
If you promise not laugh too hard and don't tell anyone I'll PM you something really interesting about medals.

2) the guy is something more than ex-Blackwater worker and without any doubt he's good at his business.
Don't doubt it for a second, in fact I am sure he is

3) he has pretty good contacts with Russian SF units (I saw his photos from some Alfa guys also) and those contacts are far more then traditional "vodka drinking"
I know he does have a lot of friends (and that does involve lots of drinking of vodka in Russia ;) ) and is close with Lysjuk.

For me: the guy is very good SWAT instructor and definitely-he is also good at self-commercial.
Agree
He knows how to sell himself in that business.
My point exactly. I think that he is trying to build a name for himself so later he can open his own "school", nothing wrong with that, but claiming to train "A" is somewhat beyond egaggerating and more in the realm of being ridiculous.
I don't know why are you keep bringing it up when 2 years ago both me and 16 OBrSpN explained to you why there are no foreigners allowed.


That's it.
So what are arguing about?
:)

[tony6]

If you promise not laugh too hard and don't tell anyone I'll PM you something really interesting about medals.
It depends ;)

[martinexsquaddie]

RIP to the spetnez guys
I doubt even the SAS or Delta could have done any better given the shear number of hostages and the terrorists intention of dieing and taking everybody else with them :(

[LazerLordz]

RIP.

Heroes every single one of them.

[Mr Hat]

RIP to the spetnez guys
I doubt even the SAS or Delta could have done any better given the shear number of hostages and the terrorists intention of dieing and taking everybody else with them :(

Not a smart statement, Of coarse they would not have done better, the numbers were to great. Think how many assault teams you would need to free those hostages and take out the terrorists???? like 20, or more each consitsting of the standard 4 man formation!

[Telnyashka]

RIP to the spetnez guys
I doubt even the SAS or Delta could have done any better given the shear number of hostages and the terrorists intention of dieing and taking everybody else with them :(

Not a smart statement, Of coarse they would not have done better, the numbers were to great. Think how many assault teams you would need to free those hostages and take out the terrorists???? like 20, or more each consitsting of the standard 4 man formation!

even then it woudlnt matter because the terrorists just detonated the bombs beforehand, killing dozens if not a 100.

[MEGR]

They were doing their duty. They risked their lives to save children from a bunch of crazy fundamentalists that were heavily armed, and had strung up the place with bombs. Extremely difficult if you asked me. These Russian soldiers who have died and survived this horrible incident have definately earned my respect.

[plodey]

I'd say the rescue operation was a stuff up of epic proportions.

:roll:

Mate, seriously, did you just hear from someone that the rescue operation was a 'stuff up of epic proportions' and decided that it sounded good?

Lokos

No I read it from a number of reports and media sources.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/26/news/beslan.php

On one point alone almost all agree: Russia's counterterrorism response was a deeply flawed effort that squandered individual acts of courage and cost untold lives.

Stanislav Kesayev, head of the regional parliamentary investigation, describes the events that enveloped School No. 1 as a study of how counterterrorism operations should not be done. A central purpose of the federal investigations, he said, has been to protect institutions and officials who failed to prevent so much death.

His report is expected in September.

"The main conclusion we will make is about the lack of coordination of the power structures and special units that are designed for this purpose," he said.


The federal commission is expected to release its report late this year. Its chairman, Aleksandr Torshin, declined requests for an interview.

Most survivors and grieving families interviewed in Beslan direct their rage at the terrorists. But as they wait for a credible account of the bungled siege and battle, they express disgust at what they call government incompetence and inability to apportion blame for its mistakes.

The anger is widespread enough that the Beslan Mothers Committee, a local support group, has asked Putin not to attend memorial events in early September.

"It is important in principle to know the truth so that something like this cannot happen again, and so that incompetent, irresponsible, corrupt people - people without morals - will be punished," said Susanna Dudiyeva, the leader of the group. "That is not what is happening."

The rough outline is understood. The terrorists appeared shortly after the academic year began on Sept. 1 and surrounded a playground celebration of parents, teachers and students. Those who resisted were killed; about 150 others managed to escape.

The rest, nearly 1,200 in all, were forced into the gym, which their captors laced with bombs.

Two days later, with negotiations stalled, a pair of explosions shook the gym. A battle began, with hostages caught in the middle.

Most victims died in those last hours. But from the beginning, the Russian response was checkered with mistakes.

A tactical understanding of the crisis seemed to elude the authorities. The police, the Russian Army, the Interior Ministry and Russia's domestic security service, the FSB, with elite commandos, all came to Beslan. But there was little coordination.

The authorities also never created an effective cordon, a lapse many believe allowed the escape of some terrorists whose existence is not acknowledged.

On Sept. 3, the elite commandos left Beslan to rehearse tactics in another village. No specialized troops were nearby and ready.

The explosions came on Sept. 3, but what caused them remains in dispute.

The prosecutor's office says the first explosion was an accident caused by a bomb falling to the floor. Many survivors agree. Others do not.

This is clear: One explosion occurred where terrorists had set a large bomb along a gym wall. It blew out the wall and lifted the ceiling and roof and left heaps of broken bodies in an arc.

Not enough ambulances had been readied, and many wounded hostages traveled to hospitals in private cars.

Inside the school, terrorists ordered survivors to the cafeteria, where some were forced to stand at windows as human shields. A number were promptly shot by troops outside, said Irina Naldikoyeva, 30, who was there with her two children and niece, Vika Dzutseva.

Simultaneously, a fire spread in the ceiling of the gym. But firefighters took at least two hours to approach, the families and Kesayev said. By then the roof had collapsed. In all, 218 of those killed were found with burns, the Mothers Committee says.

After months of denials, the prosecutor's office admitted this summer that the Russians had fired powerful shoulder-fired rockets, known as Shmels, at the school. Some families believe the rockets caused or accelerated the blaze, although this is not clear.

Whatever the rockets' actual effect, the bereaved mothers say, their presence demonstrated that the government was willing to use indiscriminate force where children were present.

There is similar anger and disbelief over the use of tanks. One witness, Teimuraz Konukov, said that at about 2:30 p.m. he lay behind a tree across the street and watched a Russian tank fire its main barrel into the school's facade. Hostages remained inside at the time.

Prosecutors insist the tank did not fire until evening, after all the hostages had escaped or were dead.

etc etc

and you can read the same stuff in many other sources

see: http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details_print.cfm?id=12682

Which all amounts to an epic stuffup IMHO. And our sympathy should be directed towards the innocent victims.

[Upfrontreporting]

Lets not ****-up this thread with talk about who got which awards, these russian soldiers did what they could when it all went tits up.

Did anyone else see the two hour documentary on discoveryeurope the other day? Very grapich and very thorough.


regards

[Igor01]

Did anyone else see the two hour documentary on discoveryeurope the other day? Very grapich and very thorough.

Do you remember the name of the documentary by any chance?

[Upfrontreporting]

I think it was just called Beslan. There might more episodes as Discoverychannel is running a teaser about a doc where the children of Beslan tell their story. I suppose if you do a search on the discoveryeurope site you can find more info.


regards

[Lokos]

Russia's counterterrorism response was a deeply flawed effort that squandered individual acts of courage and cost untold lives.

And how would you and the honorable representatives of the international community have done it? Maybe you also have a solution for that nasty ulcer that is Chechnya? Heck, solve all of Russia's problems - the Russians themselves are obviously too incompetent, right?

Stanislav Kesayev, head of the regional parliamentary investigation

A man with zero bias or political agenda - to be sure.

"The main conclusion we will make is about the lack of coordination of the power structures and special units that are designed for this purpose," he said.


I like how the main conclusion drawn has very little to do with the events that developed at the school.

bungled siege and battle

:roll:

According to whom was the operation 'bungled'? Perhaps one should draw a distinction between the 'best possible result under the circumstances' and 'bungling'. Or not, when it comes to Russia, yeah?

and so that incompetent, irresponsible, corrupt people - people without morals - will be punished,"

Somehow, I don't think she's talking about the operators who stormed the school, or those who planned the operation itself.

Two days later, with negotiations stalled, a pair of explosions shook the gym.

The terrorists, according to official sources, planned for a lengthy siege. Stalled negotiations after two days didn't prompt the explosions. What did, nobody knows. The battle that resulted was tragic, granted, but not because of 'bungling' on the part of the CT units.

Not enough ambulances had been readied, and many wounded hostages traveled to hospitals in private cars.

It would be fantastic if resources could magically appear as soon as you need them. However, in Russia, as in most places, that's just not possible.

A number were promptly shot by troops outside, said Irina Naldikoyeva, 30, who was there with her two children and niece, Vika Dzutseva.

:roll:

Give me a break.

Which all amounts to an epic stuffup IMHO. And our sympathy should be directed towards the innocent victims.

Sorry, but I'll respectfully disagree in regards to the 'epic stuffup' bit.

Lokos

[BadKarma26]

I wish I could roll my eyes and say, "give me a break" and it would be a satisfactory counterpoint in debates here at school. :roll:







:lol: lokos

[plodey]

Sorry I thought this was the "Military History and Tactics" board where we were allowed to debate military history and tactics.

:roll:

[Lokos]

A number were promptly shot by troops outside, said Irina Naldikoyeva, 30, who was there with her two children and niece, Vika Dzutseva.

Bad Karma, what argument is the above passage making? Because I'd be all too happy to refute it on other grounds, rather than leaving it with the admittedly dismissive 'Give me a break.'

Sorry I thought this was the "Military History and Tactics" board where we were allowed to debate military history and tactics.

Rolling Eyes


We sure are. So let's debate tactics. You can have the first go.

(Which aspect of the article you posted could provoke debate in regards to tactics, by the way?)

Lokos

[plodey]

Well for a start the perimeter was not secured. I am not an expert in counter-terrorism - hostage situations but I would have thought this is of critical importance. Especially as you had locals who had armed themselves entering the battle - creating even more confusion.

Also, the use of flamethrowers and a tank to shell the building (originally denied but then admitted in the later investigation) seem way to heavy handed. There is the possibility the flamethrowers caused the fire which killed most of the hostages.

Someone also said in the thread that the soldiers did not have bullet proof vests because they didn't have time to get them? Unlikely and poor training if true.

The lack of ambulances and fire-trucks seems like another major flaw and undoubtedly cost many lives.

[MEGR]

Question to those who know this event well. How much time did the SOF team have to prepare? I mean, such a complicated situation takes days to prepare for.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Well for a start the perimeter was not secured.
So how would you secure perimeter and prevent any participation from thousands of armed parents and relatives whose kids were in the school?
Definitive answers please.


Also, the use of flamethrowers and a tank to shell the building (originally denied but then admitted in the later investigation) seem way to heavy handed.
Again you are speaking of something you don't know.
There were total 7 shots fired out of tank on the machine gun and sniper positions in the buildings around the school, no shots were fired on the school itself.

Your knowledge of this event comes from the very ill informed and ill educated in military hardware media.
Even though RPO-A is considered to be a flamethrower it is not the type you think it is.
You are thinking this
http://www.secretarmies.com/images/day_flame.jpg


What they used was this
http://www.tamilnet.com/img/publish/2002/06/rpo_a-shmel.jpg
http://warfare.ru/0702ey70/update/jan2005/2/shmel1.jpg

and this is what kind of effect it produces
http://warfare.ru/?catid=278&linkid=1847&video=true
RPO are perfect for neutralizing heavily fortified sniper and machinegun positions.
The type of damage to the building and injuries of the hostages completely outrule firing RPO on the main building with the hostages still inside.
Someone also said in the thread that the soldiers did not have bullet proof vests because they didn't have time to get them? Unlikely and poor training if true.
You are not very bright, I'll let someone else explain you why.

The lack of ambulances and fire-trucks seems like another major flaw and undoubtedly cost many lives.
???
You have no clue what are you talking about

[Dima-RussianArms]

Question to those who know this event well. How much time did the SOF team have to prepare? I mean, such a complicated situation takes days to prepare for.
None,
they have just started practicing that morning in the similar layout building 45 minutes away. Once the shooting started they sped back, causing several accidents on the way, to the school.
What happened wasn't a planned operation, it was improvisation "on the fly" with parents and terrorists shooting at each other and panicing kids trying to escape exploding and burning school.

[JKD]

So how would you secure perimeter and prevent any participation from thousands of armed parents and relatives whose kids were in the school?

With troops and/or police?

[MEGR]

Now, the SOF operators are not there to play crowd control. Local officials (I assume) are tasked to do that. The SOF soldiers are just there to storm the building and rescue the hostages while taking out the enemy in the process. They can only deal with the cards they are dealt with. That's why they are the best of the best, and why they are called upon tough situations such as Beslan; because, they have the means to improvise, and perform missions under the worst of circumstances.

[redfox0035]

So how would you secure perimeter and prevent any participation from thousands of armed parents and relatives whose kids were in the school? Definitive answers please.

The textbook situation: perimiter is secured with two circles: 1st - VV troops, 2nd - local militia/OMON.

The local gov failed to do this which caused the critical error in whole situation.

В беседах сами фебосы просто рвали и метали по этому поводу.

Again you are speaking of something you don't know.
There were total 7 shots fired out of tank on the machine gun and sniper positions in the buildings around the school, no shots were fired on the school itself.

I'd say -- no shots were fired at gym itself.

They were fired after 18.00; the right wing was under fire.

nd this is what kind of effect it produces
http://warfare.ru/?catid=278&linkid=1847&video=true
RPO are perfect for neutralizing heavily fortified sniper and machinegun positions.

I just happen to have similar discussion about that matter.

In short -- all the babeling about RPO-A shots is disproved by the simple fact that the gym has undestroyed ceiling.


Спасибо, кстати, за линк. ;)

Привет "русичам" -- они работали вместе.

[Lokos]

The lack of ambulances and fire-trucks seems like another major flaw and undoubtedly cost many lives.

Suitable responses have been offered by Dima and Redfox for all but the above.

There was a lack of ambulances and fire-trucks, because there was a lack of ambulances and fire-trucks. This is not a question of tactics, but resource managment, which remains suboptimal due to budgetary deficiencies. I will say that I agree, there should have been greater logistical capabilities on site. However, I do not blame the Russian government. To foresee that heavily armed maniacs would come in and take over a school with 1,200 hostages - and then to predict that the resulting storming of the school would cost hundreds of lives and many injured - shouldn't be described as 'reasonable'.

Lokos

[plodey]

However, I do not blame the Russian government. To foresee that heavily armed maniacs would come in and take over a school with 1,200 hostages

Well maybe they were asleep when Chechen rebels took 700 hostages at a Moscow theatre 2 years earlier. :roll:


So how would you secure perimeter and prevent any participation from thousands of armed parents and relatives whose kids were in the school?
Definitive answers please.


I would secure the perimeter with the Army. This was apparently done - A security cordon was soon established around the school, consisting of Russian police and army forces, Spetsnaz, including the Alpha anti-terrorist team, and members of Ministerstvo Vnutrennih Del (MVD, or Ministry of Interior Affairs)'s OMON unit. (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis)) .........yet you still had civillians entering the area!!

This siege lasted for THREE DAYS. You can't tell me they didn't have enough time to get troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

Again you are speaking of something you don't know.
There were total 7 shots fired out of tank on the machine gun and sniper positions in the buildings around the school, no shots were fired on the school itself.

Says who? Many witnesses saw the main gun fire. Admitted in the inquiry.


Your knowledge of this event comes from the very ill informed and ill educated in military hardware media.
Even though RPO-A is considered to be a flamethrower it is not the type you think it is.


No, I know it was an RPO-A - its mentioned in the news articles.


[color=blue] The type of damage to the building and injuries of the hostages completely outrule firing RPO on the main building with the hostages still inside.

complete rubbish


Someone also said in the thread that the soldiers did not have bullet proof vests because they didn't have time to get them? Unlikely and poor training if true.
You are not very bright, I'll let someone else explain you why.


The hostage situation lasted for 3 days. You tell me why they were not prepared or didn't have the correct equipment. Or is the Russian Army too poor to afford bullet proof vests or helmets??

The lack of ambulances and fire-trucks seems like another major flaw and undoubtedly cost many lives.
???
You have no clue what are you talking about

Don't you have fire-trucks in Russia?

Question to those who know this event well. How much time did the SOF team have to prepare? I mean, such a complicated situation takes days to prepare for.
None,
they have just started practicing that morning in the similar layout building 45 minutes away. Once the shooting started they sped back, causing several accidents on the way, to the school.
What happened wasn't a planned operation, it was improvisation "on the fly" with parents and terrorists shooting at each other and panicing kids trying to escape exploding and burning school.

Load of ****. The siege lasted 3 days. You can't tell me they didn't have time to prepare or call in for extra equipment.

[Dima-RussianArms]

The textbook situation: perimiter is secured with two circles: 1st - VV troops, 2nd - local militia/OMON.
Всё конечно правильно, но без учёта психологии местных (Кавказ всё-таки) и нашего всеобщего бардака. Организовать и удержать оцепление в Москве и в Беслане - это две разные вещи.

The local gov failed to do this which caused the critical error in whole situation.
Местное начальство вообще с самого начала искало на кого стрелки перевести, а не как разрешить ситуацию, ну вообщем как всегда...

В беседах сами фебосы просто рвали и метали по этому поводу.
Да что там говорить, одни бегали и закрывали своими телами детей, а другие бегали и создавали ИБД(имитация бурной деятельности) спасая свои шкуры.

I'd say -- no shots were fired at gym itself.
Спасибо за поправку



Спасибо, кстати, за линк. ;)
Всегда пожалуйста


Привет "русичам" -- они работали вместе.
Да просто обидно, что мужики забыв о своих спасали чужих детй, а тут уроды разные о непрофессионализме ахинею несут.
А тут ещё и новое расследование с сопутствующими статьями в газетах, как будто что-то изменится...

Кстати хотел спросить, в Ваших кругах никто с "Гиперионом" не работал?
Ответ можно в ПМ

[Dima-RussianArms]

To Plodey,
I regret wasting time answering to your original post.
Have a nice life.

[plodey]

Piss weak effort.