USS Liberty

[M1A2U2]

What do you Israelis have to say for when you attacked in ship in the 6 day war?

[SeanAshi]

USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, arrived in the area, 14 miles off the Sinai coast, as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling and war planes and torpedo boats attacked, killing 34 members of the Liberty's crew and wounding 171.

Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I dont see why this wold be anytinhg else then a tragic accident.
I mean, if the Israelis really did have a plan to maliciously attack an American vessel, intead of trying to rescue the crew they would "disappear" them.

[stateofequilibrium]

I forget the particulars.. but it seemed actually REALLY suspicious on part of the Israelis. Weren't there previous communiques identifying the Liberty as an American ship?

[SeanAshi]

The United States being Israels only friend at the time would make no sense if the attack was deliberate.

Weren't there previous communiques identifying the Liberty as an American ship?
The IAF jammed the radios, thinking it was Egyptian ship, one question that is aked over and over again, was the American flag flying up above? Some say yes some say no.

[StarvingStudent47]

This is effing ludicrous. For one, how many times have we been through this? Tragic freakin' accident. If you're going to blow up a ship on purpose, you finish the job, you don't stop halfway through and then send a rescue crew. Dead men tell no tales, remember?

For two, talk about brazen flame bait.

I sure as hell hope that 37 years from now, the Aussies and the Brits won't sitll be bashing Americans for the friendly fire incidences during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The United States being Israels only friend at the time

The US had many allies at the time, the cold war was on, I really do not know what history books you have been reading.

[XASA]

This topic was discussed in some detail in several previous threads including:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4684&highlight=liberty

[UoUo]

The United States being Israels only friend at the time

The US had many allies at the time, the cold war was on, I really do not know what history books you have been reading.

:cantbeli:

Read what he wrote again.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The United States being Israels only friend at the time

The US had many allies at the time, the cold war was on, I really do not know what history books you have been reading.

:cantbeli:

Read what he wrote again.

I am a silly boy
I am a silly boy

:oops: :oops: :oops:

[UoUo]

The United States being Israels only friend at the time

The US had many allies at the time, the cold war was on, I really do not know what history books you have been reading.

:cantbeli:

Read what he wrote again.

I am a silly boy
I am a silly boy

:oops: :oops: :oops:

No problem :P

[obd]

ok people, lets all try to not to be complete morons and blame Israel for killing and wounding the Liberty's crew on prupose. I dont think the Israel's are, or were anyway, that stupid. First, they would stand absolutely no chance whatsoever in a military confrontation with the United States and wouldnt possibly wish to pick a fight with the United States Navy which could annihilate Israel with a single one of its Trident subs all by itself!! Second, without US support Israel would never have been able to exist and Israel would most likely face another war with the Arabs within 10-20 years of the US "abandoning" it and ceasing all military and financial support. And you know what, as good, as brave, as smart, and as well equiped as the Israeli military is, there is no way it could withstand the might of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran, and (well Iraq wont be doing **** for awhile) without continued US military support and monetary help. And no, Israel did not do it all by itself ounce, they did it after years of support and used French and American made aircraft to push them back. Not to take anything away from thier remarkable ass kicking of the Arabs but just to say that Israeli pride shouldnt go so far as to feel like they did it alone. So stop with the "Israelis did it on purpose" crap. You dont stab your best freind in the back unless you got another better best freind and I dont think Israel even has another fair weather freind in the world that would matter in another all out balls to the wall fight with the "Ayrabs" at the moment. Anti-semetic feelings have not vanished in Europe just because WW2 ended and Hitler died. Not to mention anti-semetic feeelings are practicaly at a fever pitch in the Arab world, dare I say even worse then pre-WW2 Europe??

[UoUo]

Israel not won the 67 cuz USA support.

Beside that i agree with you :hug:

[cut]

This is effing ludicrous. For one, how many times have we been through this? Tragic freakin' accident. If you're going to blow up a ship on purpose, you finish the job, you don't stop halfway through and then send a rescue crew. Dead men tell no tales, remember?

For two, talk about brazen flame bait.

I sure as hell hope that 37 years from now, the Aussies and the Brits won't sitll be bashing Americans for the friendly fire incidences during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

only if you say sorry and pay damages, after all libya did and they are a poor country.

oh and the canadians will have your forgetting their blue on blue dead

[Kitsune]

Has any one here read Victor Ostrovsky's books?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0971759502/qid=1074876751/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7597963-1437616?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061093521/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-7597963-1437616?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews

[UkrainianAmerican]

ok people, lets all try to not to be complete morons and blame Israel for killing and wounding the Liberty's crew on prupose. I dont think the Israel's are, or were anyway, that stupid. First, they would stand absolutely no chance whatsoever in a military confrontation with the United States and wouldnt possibly wish to pick a fight with the United States Navy which could annihilate Israel with a single one of its Trident subs all by itself!! Second, without US support Israel would never have been able to exist and Israel would most likely face another war with the Arabs within 10-20 years of the US "abandoning" it and ceasing all military and financial support. And you know what, as good, as brave, as smart, and as well equiped as the Israeli military is, there is no way it could withstand the might of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran, and (well Iraq wont be doing **** for awhile) without continued US military support and monetary help. And no, Israel did not do it all by itself ounce, they did it after years of support and used French and American made aircraft to push them back. Not to take anything away from thier remarkable ass kicking of the Arabs but just to say that Israeli pride shouldnt go so far as to feel like they did it alone. So stop with the "Israelis did it on purpose" crap. You dont stab your best freind in the back unless you got another better best freind and I dont think Israel even has another fair weather freind in the world that would matter in another all out balls to the wall fight with the "Ayrabs" at the moment. Anti-semetic feelings have not vanished in Europe just because WW2 ended and Hitler died. Not to mention anti-semetic feeelings are practicaly at a fever pitch in the Arab world, dare I say even worse then pre-WW2 Europe??
Historically speaking during the six day war, Israel was neither funder nor equipped by the States. Arab countries were mostly soviet equiped. Jordan and Egypt even had some american stuff.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Historically speaking during the six day war, Israel was neither funder nor equipped by the States. Arab countries were mostly soviet equiped. Jordan and Egypt even had some american stuff.

This mostly agrees with the stuff that I have read about the conflict although there was some heavy lobbying for more help/intervention by Jewish groups in the US. I have lost all of the Arab/Israeli war reading material I had but I can remember France put a fair bit of hardware into Israel at one point including the reactor at Dimona, how much did they contribute?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Historically speaking during the six day war, Israel was neither funder nor equipped by the States. Arab countries were mostly soviet equiped. Jordan and Egypt even had some american stuff.

This mostly agrees with the stuff that I have read about the conflict although there was some heavy lobbying for more help/intervention by Jewish groups in the US. I have lost all of the Arab/Israeli war reading material I had but I can remember France put a fair bit of hardware into Israel at one point including the reactor at Dimona, how much did they contribute?
Israel had a lot of French stuff. After the 1956 Suez canal war (Brits, french, and israelis) Israel receive lotsa frnch gear at low prices as a gift for participating.
As for lobbying, you are right. But lobbying doesnt equal actual support.

[IDFM203]

I have lost all of the Arab/Israeli war reading material I had but I can remember France put a fair bit of hardware into Israel at one point including the reactor at Dimona, how much did they contribute? well first of all I don’t think France put a fair amount of military hard where as if they gave it to us.

From what I understand Israel paid for most of what they got for France.

With that said yes they were a help for they did help Israel build that nuclear reactor and helped out in the beginning (though France got some Israeli scientific expertise in return as well……though that is not to diminish the help that France gave in the beginning in that effort).

Also most countries including the U.S. (even though they were friendly to Israel)at that time refused to sell arms to Israel so even if Israel paid for them it was still very appreciative at the time.

Basically from 1956 to 1968 (after the six day war in 1967) Israel got (well they paid for a lot of it) most of their military equipment from either France or Britain.

Lets not forget that France and Britain and Israel “fought together” in the 1956 suez war against Egypt after Egypt had closed off shipping through the canal zone

Before 1956 Israel didn’t have much from anyone and they won the 1948 war without much outside help.






As for the liberty incident and the whole debate about it, well as XASA pointed out already, This topic was discussed in some detail in several previous threads like This (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4684&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=liberty&start=0) one here.

To cut..

only if you say sorry and pay damages, after all libya did and they are a poor country.

Israel did all of that year’s ago.

They said they were sorry and did in fact pay millions to the victims families and to the U.S. government.


Has any one here read Victor Ostrovsky's books?

even though the book is a bit negative to Israel (and there are real questions whether if all that he alleges is true or what was his real security Clarence was) nonetheless I loved his book. Especially the details of Mossad training.

(In fact in the movie spy game there was a training scene that was almost exact from that book (though of course I am not saying that they took it from there for I am sure other agencies use that as well though it had me thinking about it)

Shalom :D

[memphiz]

This is effing ludicrous. For one, how many times have we been through this? Tragic freakin' accident. If you're going to blow up a ship on purpose, you finish the job, you don't stop halfway through and then send a rescue crew. Dead men tell no tales, remember?

For two, talk about brazen flame bait.

I sure as hell hope that 37 years from now, the Aussies and the Brits won't sitll be bashing Americans for the friendly fire incidences during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
you do know that 4 Candian soldiers were also killed and a few wounded in Afghanistan by a "miss guided American bomb"...

[Kitsune]

@IDFM203:
Whoa, you surprise me there. (Not that it is a bad thing to be surprised now and then.) ;)

Aehem. Are you aware (most probably not) that in his second book, he claims to know that most of the Libyan connection to terrorism (the bombing of the LaBelle discotheque in Berlin for example) is an Mossad deception? That, according to him an Israeli Black Ops commando planted a "Trojan relais device" in the vicinity of the Bal-Azizia barracks, which were Ghaddafis HQ back then, which was the source of orders to "Terrorists" all over the world which were in truth send by Mossad. That, according to him, Mossad had before given information to the Americans about the connection of the Libyans to terrorism, who after decyphering the radio messages from Ghaddafis HQ came to the conclusion that it all was the truth. This led to the attack on Tripolis by American and British bombers. According to Ostrovsky, Spanish and French Intelligence Agency in contrast to the Americans did not fell for it, (the Libyans had usually been very carefully whith their radio communication and that they suddenly would change this behaviour seemed odd to them). So they refused overflight rights to the American/Britsh jets. (The British hesitated, but as usual finally trodded along with the Americans)

According to him the Operation had three main objectives:
1) Ensure that the Hizbollah stayed Nr.1 enemy in western eyes. (Hizbollah had captured American hostages at that time and after the Tripolis bombing a peaceful deal to free them was prevented, instead some of the Americans were executed by the Hizbollah)
2) Remind the Arabs nations on which side the US stands in case of an Israeli/Arab war
3) And on top of this, the Americans were even thankful for the "accurate" intel, Mossad provided in telling them about the true extents of the Libyan-Terrorist network.

And thats only one things of many (a bigger one admittedly) he reveals (or "reveals").

And if something like this would be true it would mean...you know for yourself.

So I was a bit suprised to hear an Israeli say that he enjoyed Ostrovskys books, I would have exspected something different. Like he is a traitor/crackpot/nut or something.

Whoa...

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203:
Whoa, you surprise me there. (Not that it is a bad thing to be surprised now and then.) ;) I had a feeling that I might just do that to you ;) :D

Listen while I am a patriot so to speak I am not a blind patriot, meaning that I wont defend everything that Israel did nor say Israel is perfect, for its not.

And if something was proven to be wrong I wont defend that action.

With that said a lot of what he wrote was not proven and I am very skeptical of the authenticity of those allegations, as I will explain later on here.


So I was a bit suprised to hear an Israeli say that he enjoyed Ostrovskys books, I would have exspected something different. Like he is a traitor/crackpot/nut or something.

Whoa... ok first a clear distinction needs to be made.

I like his books but not him personally!!

Let me explain,

I liked the book (or to be specific certain parts of it) for you have to understand how both of those books were written.

Basically half of what was written was the training and how the Mossad operates and the other half was about Mossad operations and some of his allegations of that.

Even though I felt it was wrong, being that it was published already (its not like me not reading it will prevent anyone else from reading it ;) ) I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, especially the training and tactics part of his books. (Reading it was kind of like a “guilty pleasure” feeling)



Now I do consider him a traitor and opportunistic, be it the great financial incentives in writing these books or in his own delusional left wing agenda. What I mean by delusional left wing agenda is like that of Mordehcai Vannunu (for those of you who just love to follow all of “Israel’s wrongs” be it made up or not, will know who this person is) who felt he needs to damage Israel “for its own good” in reveling that Israel has nukes and reveling Israel’s capability in that field so that Israel would abandon them…….both of them are traitors in the sense that Israel has been fighting for its very existence for the past fifty years against astronomical odds against numerous enemies and to have fellow Israelis try to destroy from within by damaging the Mossads capability or Israel’s nuclear deterrent is a traitorous act to Israel’s very well being.

Now I know what he brought down and alleges can be argued that he is not a traitor but just someone that wants to see Israel change and while I disagree with that simplistic defense of him (for what he wrote went way past that mere objective), what cant at all be argued against him being called a traitor is him divulging how the Mossad trains and operates.

He broke some very clear and vital OPSEC rules that are very damaging to the Mossad and its ability to perform its vital security duties

He is a traitor for he gave out a lot of info on how the Mossad trains or how they operate and by giving out these unique “trade secrets” that have allowed the Mossad to become one of the most successful spy agencies in the world (for even if what he alleges in the other parts of that book are true, which again a lot of it is very unproven, the Mossad has done tons of positive acts over the years for the vital security of Israel that far out weight the few negative ones that he outlines there) and this is damaging to the agents in the field that were most defiantly compromised by some of the info that he spelled out in the book.


You see what’s for sure is that he was in the Mossad and as such the training and tactics parts of the books are probably true but a lot of other things in the actual operations parts of the books that he alleges comes into question being that he did not have the highest security clearance (I mean he was not a high official in the Mossad but merely just a regular agent) and also he was in for a short time period. The way the Mossad works (and I am sure the way other spy agencies work as well) is that a person knows very little outside of what he himself is doing. Meaning that just because you were in the Mossad doesn’t mean that you know everything about it’s history or what it has done in other operations or what other departments are doing even when you are in an operation yourself. For you don’t and you don’t know a fraction of it. So a lot of what he wrote he was not there and he is merely alleging based on no proof what so ever and that leads me to be very skeptical to say the least.



Aehem. Are you aware (most probably not) that in his second book, I did in fact read both books.

Now with that said it was a while ago and I don’t remember specifics of it but rather I just have a vague recollection of parts of it.

Shalom :D

[cut]

[quote=cut] only if you say sorry and pay damages, after all libya did and they are a poor country.

Israel did all of that year’s ago.



yeah I was talking about the american gvt for the blue on blue (to canada, the UK and Aus)

but if the Israel did it too then the americans have no excuse!

[M1A2U2]

Hmmmm why did the torpedo boats keep attacking even when the morse code said "we are an american ship" seems to me some general with a **** up his ass wanted to have a military victory

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

[quote=cut] only if you say sorry and pay damages, after all libya did and they are a poor country.

Israel did all of that year’s ago.



yeah I was talking about the american gvt for the blue on blue (to canada, the UK and Aus)

but if the Israel did it too then the americans have no excuse!

@cut I think you may have misquoted me here.