View Full Version : Sweden - Report: Let the army help fight terrorism
2RHPZ
09-05-2005, 04:16 AM
Let the army help fight terrorism - report
Sweden should allow its military to step in and help the police in any battle against terrorists and terrorism, according to a government commissioned report published on Wednesday.
"There are situations where the security police could, to a greater extent than today, require collaboration with other public bodies, especially the armed forces," according to the report, which was put together by a special commission appointed by the government late last year to look into the issue.
The 113-page study proposes the creation of a new act "regulating the support of the police from the armed forces and other suitable governmental bodies".
"The police may, when needed, request support to prevent, investigate or in other ways intervene in such crimes that are covered by the act ... on punishment of terrorist crimes, and that are especially difficult to handle," it suggested.
The proposal is expected to meet resistance in Sweden, where the military has been banned from any involvement in civilian crime-fighting since troops in 1931 were called in to help disperse a worker protest march in Ådalen in the east of the country. They shot into the crowd, leaving five people dead.
"The incident in Ådalen must however be judged in the light of its era," the report stated.
"To use the incident ... as grounds for not permitting the armed forces to carry out specific, qualified tasks to support civil authorities such as the police seems today both antiquated and irrelevant," the commission stated in the report.
After handing the report over to Justice Minister Thomas Bodström, head of the commission Olof Egerstedt insisted to reporters that the proposal was in no way radical.
The military already assists the police "in the Nordic countries, excluding Iceland, and it also happens in the Netherlands, Great Britain, and to some extent France", he said.
Sweden is not considered at high risk for terror attacks, but in light of the numerous deadly attacks around the world over the past four years, the report emphasized that the Scandinavian country "in no way is immune to terrorism".
Link (http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=1994&date=20050831)
Yeah, it's probably a good idea.. The thing is though that they have been working on that report since 9/11.. I kid you not.
Hmm bad bad idea if you ask me! the Swedish army are not ready for it. . Most off the soldiers today have only 7.5 month military training today.So sending them to stop terrorist gone end up in a disaster and we gone have a new Ådalen.
*Edit spelling*
Svanberg
09-05-2005, 12:52 PM
well the proposition does not include the use of conscripts, only officers.
so Luno, don´t worry =)
Svanberg
Oki that sounds allot better (=
Hmm bad bad idea if you ask me! the Swedish army are not ready for it. . Most off the soldiers today have only 7.5 month military training today.So sending them to stop terrorist gone end up in a disaster and we gone have a new Ådalen.
*Edit spelling*
Huh? Don't be an ass.. You not trusting your own/Homeguard ability is a whole different thing. I simply don't think you understand the concept behind this.
We will even more than today have readiness battalions (lika IA03 and so on) that will be ready to instantly serve within the EU Battle Groups or within the country. They will be on 6 month readiness contracts I believe. These are the ones that will be standing by.
Btw, how long training do you think an american soldier has? Or an officer? I'd say that the average experiene in these already existing units will be 1-3 years of military service.
And as for Ådalen, the demonstrators did not follow military orders, and warning shots very fired. Compare it to a violent demonstration in Kosovo or whatever, if soldiers are attacked, they will respond.
well the proposition does not include the use of conscripts, only officers.
so Luno, don´t worry =)
BS
You think they will start enormous officer corps units? The only units like that will continue to be like that is small special forces units like SSG and FJS IK.
Thor: Who is the ass? You?
Take your Rambo attitude and use it elswhere. :cantbeli:
Take your commie attitude elsewhere. People that don't know **** shouldn't comment on serious things.
Bad idea in my opinion, the swedich army wont be ready for something like that in years. The considerations that have to be taken into acount for operating in a other then war environment pretty much decapitates the army into doing patrols and guard duty. offensive operations on swedich soil that need more firepower then the police can muster is so far off that i think this is a gamble to get more funds for the army. come to think of it, this is nothing new, our Homeguard QRF (insats pluton/kompani) have been active and ready for operations for years, and are specialy tailord to operate in other then war environments, but ONLY in a defensive or protective way.
What do they need the army for? artillery support? ;)
supercontra
09-06-2005, 06:41 AM
Do we still have an army?
to make a long story short, no we dont. not in like an army able to portect and defend the country in the case of an invation or other war.. what we have is the ability to train soldiers to take part in international efforts like kosovo, somalia, the EU-corps, etc. and that is all the government wants.
Marsuitor
09-06-2005, 07:06 AM
If your troops are good enough for doing peacekeeping in Kosovo, they're good enough for Sweden. It wouldn't be about shooting the bad guys to bits, or airstrikes, or handling a downright insurgency, it would be to counter specific threats and handle isolated incidents. Anyone with 12 months national service should be able to handle perimeter and access duties, security patrols and know about ROE's. What would be needed before letting the guys handle interior issues is a change in mindset and perhaps training doctrine for non-deployable units; That you are working in your own country with your own people, the rest is already there.
Have some faith in your military, you already have lots of experience.
Just my view on it...
Vorian
09-06-2005, 07:17 AM
The best solution to prevent terrorist attacks in your country is not to provoke them. When you don't provoke them you won't be attacked. Example: Greece despite being a EU and NATO member was never targeted by Al Qaeda (of course we have a few amateur local left-wings who claim themselves to be terrorists), or another international terrorist group. The reason is simple, we do not provoke them. In Olympics in 2004 Bin Laden himself declared that Athens would not be harmed during the Games. In England though, when they took the Olympics for 2012, the next day they were attacked.
marcus: yeah i agree with you, i myself is in a part time unit doing just the stuff you mention, and we are quite capabel.
But in my opinion, the kind of units we train at the moment in the regular army are more or less a compromise, they all want to have the capability to do ANYTHING, making them not quite effective at any particular thing.(the reason for this is to avoid getting musterd out, our govornment like i said before is downsizeing BIGTIME)
I must admit there is a big difference in the mindset between the forces trained to operate in a other then war situation, and the regular army, trained to go into battle and fight the enemy without any compromize in the use of force. It takes alot of times to make a soldier think and act the way required i these in my opinion much harder conditions. What i wanna see if im gonna agree to this is specialised units, like the reserve police units we already have, but with more time for traning, and also refrecher courses every couple of years to garantee that the skills are still there when ther is a need.
OldRecon
09-06-2005, 08:04 AM
The best solution to prevent terrorist attacks in your country is not to provoke them. When you don't provoke them you won't be attacked. Example: Greece despite being a EU and NATO member was never targeted by Al Qaeda (of course we have a few amateur local left-wings who claim themselves to be terrorists), or another international terrorist group. The reason is simple, we do not provoke them. In Olympics in 2004 Bin Laden himself declared that Athens would not be harmed during the Games. In England though, when they took the Olympics for 2012, the next day they were attacked.
Ok so bend over backwards allways works eh?
As an example we have a somewhat noted case going on here in Norway at the moment, with one of the leaders of the Kurdish ismalic fundamentalist grouping Ansar al Islam that's connected to the Khaida network. One clearly mischievous, bad fellow
While living here in Norway this guy have with high probability organised acts of terrorism in Iraq (and I'm not including actions against the US occupying force presently deployed in Iraq at that, even though Ansar al Islam have been involved in such attacks also).
Now after much deliberation our government has decided to expell him from our country.
Well, recently this guy showed up on Al Jazeera and threatened Norway with some unspecified violent act of revenge if the decision of our government to expell him is actually going to be executed.
Now do you really think we should let this snake continue to stay in our country while sitting on his ass, earning social support money and running his mischievious, violent bussiness (who is in direct contradiction of the interests of the Norwegian state btw) from here?
:lol:
ranger75bn
09-06-2005, 08:52 AM
i agree with you
:hug:
It wouldn't be about shooting the bad guys to bits, or airstrikes, or handling a downright insurgency, it would be to counter specific threats and handle isolated incidents. Anyone with 12 months national service should be able to handle perimeter and access duties, security patrols and know about ROE's.
Exactly. And more demanding tasks would be handeled by better trained troops. Besides, it's better to be prepared than start changing laws only after something bad has happened.
Military assisting the police hasn't created any problems in Finland, so I don't see why it wouldn't work in Sweden.
Bad idea in my opinion, the swedich army wont be ready for something like that in years. The considerations that have to be taken into acount for operating in a other then war environment pretty much decapitates the army into doing patrols and guard duty. offensive operations on swedich soil that need more firepower then the police can muster is so far off that i think this is a gamble to get more funds for the army. come to think of it, this is nothing new, our Homeguard QRF (insats pluton/kompani) have been active and ready for operations for years, and are specialy tailord to operate in other then war environments, but ONLY in a defensive or protective way.
What do they need the army for? artillery support? ;)
Manöver!
Why did you open your mouths if you don't know what you're talking about.. Why don't you people take your homeguard attitude and stuff it up your asses with all the cakes and cookies. You're no good for nothing then to sit around and drink coffee and disgrace the uniform.
Just to inform you what's happening, since it seems to have passed you by completely, the armed forces nowadays completely revolves around it's readiness units. These units are some of the best trained and equipped units in the world. If they are good enough to make up the swedish EU Battle Group, they sure as hell are capable to handle the lighter type of Kosovo-like actions we are talking about here.
Let's just hope the Supreme Commander decides to disband your cake eating Homeguard once and for all.
caridon
09-06-2005, 11:58 AM
Tor sluta och upföra dig som ett ashle.
folk har rätt att ha åsikter även om dom är anorlunda än dina.
tagga ner ett par hekto.
(this is written in swedish for fun and profit, use the fich for translation)
/C
"ashle"? You mean "arsle"..
Ignorance is not an excuse for defaitism. In case of war that kind of talk would be illegal.
khukuri
09-06-2005, 01:11 PM
What could the army do that the police cannot do today?
I think its a bad idea. It mixes things up unless we can use the same resources for the same tasks (military and anti-terror), which I dont even know of possible.
Someone more enlightened could maybe tell me what exactly and in which areas is the mil supposed to assist?
riots? heard that before, have nothing to do with terrorism. tell me fron the terror aspect.
And thor, this is a forum, behave or take a valium
Eat less donuts? The police is not a force to reckon with, it was obvious in Gothenburg 2001. You need the military to deal with those kind of people.
Lenin is long gone girlie..
khukuri
09-06-2005, 01:33 PM
Thor, what can the military do in a riot situation that the police cant?
Not much more. youre just babbling without any arguments and using things taken from the air.
If police wasnt a force to reckon with then we make them a force to recon with. I dont get the point, why train army personell in something we can train police in.
Apparrently no conscipts are allowed to interfere. So the army wouldnt have more men than the police. So what would you want to do, send in the special forces, SSG :roll:
And after all, riots is not a terrorist situation- show me what could the army do that the police cant in a terror situation
Do I look like your kindergarten teacher princess? Read the report and look into what type of situations the military would be used. Would you send up a police officer in a Gripen fighter? In some situations, both on land, air and at sea, the military need to be able to strengthen up the police force.
And you don't have a clue about police work. In Gothenburg 2001 they tried to get all the police officers they could get their hands on - and just got about 1500 (and I can assure you that the army is able to put more boots on the ground than that). Of which many weren't suited for that kind of service. What would happen in a really bad situation with larger problems occuring in 10-15 cities at once? There is a need for a larger para-military force, a larger and fully professional SBP, but not even that would fill all the needs.
Now we're talking about riots, and what happened in New Orleans recently shows that in some situations you have to throw in a real force in numbers to stop anarchy. This is especially important in nowaday Sweden were there are large suburban immigrant ghettos.
And as for riots, yes, politically organised riots set to throw a society into anarchy is terrorism.
Thor, are you for real?
I dont know if you have even done any time in the army, or if you are just a kid babbeling, but IF you have done any time in the army YOU are quite a good example why we shouldnt put hi-testoseron 19 year olds (or however old you are) into a situation where a cool head serves you better then a quick trigger finger. (i guess i get a lot of support for this, hehe) =P
Look at the threat man, its not like there are big al-quaida traningcamps in the Swedish alps that we need to be taken out with Gripen fighters.
And if the imigrant comunity riots, or the hippies, there will be hell to pay, no more socialbidrag, and no more starta-eget-bidrag for the pizzeria.
(just kidding)
if you are realy looking for a threat to our democracy look at the right wing fanatics (nazis) armed and ready to take to arms to protect their right to hate and to discriminate. but realy, they are to stupid to realy be a threat, dont you think THOR?
Just drop dead piggy boy
In general the standing of our armed forces is good but it's people like YOU that makes it look like **** sometimes. You're not cool, doped on your own ignorance you sold out the organisation you represent and the people who dedicate their lifes to make it great, and that makes you an asshole.
If you ffs can't have loyalty in times of peace, without a doubt I know what you would do in times of war. And if you think of yourself and your mates as a pieces of ****, get the hell out of the uniform.
This is not like some forum you might be used to. If you bash american troops, you will get your head bashed. If you do it with swedish troops, well this is what you will get in return.
Marsuitor
09-07-2005, 05:28 AM
Thor, just a friendly snippet of advice, you should calm down some.
My norwegian friend, not when someone is trying to bash my mates. I don't know how much you know about the situation here, but guys like that are known to harm our defense effort immensely.
James
09-07-2005, 06:27 AM
Thor, just a friendly snippet of advice, you should calm down some.
x2.
And think about a new avatar. Miami Vice isn't cool anymore.
James
09-07-2005, 06:30 AM
If your troops are good enough for doing peacekeeping in Kosovo, they're good enough for Sweden. It wouldn't be about shooting the bad guys to bits, or airstrikes, or handling a downright insurgency, it would be to counter specific threats and handle isolated incidents. Anyone with 12 months national service should be able to handle perimeter and access duties, security patrols and know about ROE's. What would be needed before letting the guys handle interior issues is a change in mindset and perhaps training doctrine for non-deployable units; That you are working in your own country with your own people, the rest is already there.
Have some faith in your military, you already have lots of experience.
Just my view on it...
Ja, In the U.S. it is called Force Protection. Train and act to prevent things from happening, rather than reacting to bad things that have happened.
Just drop dead piggy boy
In general the standing of our armed forces is good but it's people like YOU that makes it look like **** sometimes. You're not cool, doped on your own ignorance you sold out the organisation you represent and the people who dedicate their lifes to make it great, and that makes you an asshole.
If you ffs can't have loyalty in times of peace, without a doubt I know what you would do in times of war. And if you think of yourself and your mates as a pieces of ****, get the hell out of the uniform.
This is not like some forum you might be used to. If you bash american troops, you will get your head bashed. If you do it with swedish troops, well this is what you will get in return.
Thor you are the one that don’t fit in the Swedish army
let me remind you that the army have zero tolerance against racisms so I doubt that you have even done military service. people like you are not welcomed in the Swedish army. you are nothing more then a neonazi and a troll
Only in Swedish
Länk till ” Policy - främlingsfientlighet”
http://www.mil.se/attachments/policy_framlingsfientlighet.pdf
khukuri
09-07-2005, 07:30 AM
Do I look like your kindergarten teacher princess? Read the report and look into what type of situations the military would be used.
And as for riots, yes, politically organised riots set to throw a society into anarchy is terrorism.
Thor this is a military forum were people discuss and debate things. If you claim something give some arguments. If you dont like it, then dont hang around forums cuz you apparently dont know how to behave in a such place.
And by the way, riots are per definition not terrorism.
x2.
And think about a new avatar. Miami Vice isn't cool anymore.
Noted.
But the 80's roxors..
Thor you are the one that don’t fit in the Swedish army
let me remind you that the army have zero tolerance against racisms so I doubt that you have even done military service. people like you are not welcomed in the Swedish army. you are nothing more then a neonazi and a troll
You're not in the real army, you're in the freaking home guard.. Ask yourself why officers dont want to work with homeguard units? Unlike you I'm in the real thing, and unlike you I'm no "Quisling". I will stick to my country, organisation and my buddies at all time.
And for the protocol; on this forum I have always stood up for civil liberties and to follow the laws of war. In the US I would vote republican, in Sweden the socialist people would like to see me behind bars. Guess I would be in good company then, I'm sure many americans have seen all the photoshoped pictures used in commie demonstrations saying George W Bush is a "nazi".
Thor this is a military forum were people discuss and debate things. If you claim something give some arguments.
Well comrade.. I have no clue what you are talking about. I have more than necessary pointed out the problems today and what this report is actually saying. It's you and your kind that should start providing some arguments, so far you have just posted things that are filled with factual errors and "homeguard conclusions" (bombing al-qaida camps in sweden - how about stopping hi-jacked jets instead?).
...I'm sorry, but seeing all homeguard people here (even the norwegian guy is a homeguarder) that sell out the army and their mates just breaks my heart. It's just such a sad thing to see.
Parzival
09-07-2005, 11:15 AM
freak.....
Not Vacon/Parzival on top of this.. Thought you left after you were exposed as a poser/liar..
I'm so out of this thread.
...You're not in the real army, you're in the freaking home guard.. Ask yourself why officers dont want to work with homeguard units? Unlike you I'm in the real thing, and unlike you I'm no "Quisling". I will stick to my country, organisation and my buddies at all time.
And for the protocol; on this forum I have always stood up for civil liberties and to follow the laws of war. In the US I would vote republican, in Sweden the socialist people would like to see me behind bars. Guess I would be in good company then, I'm sure many americans have seen all the photoshoped pictures used in commie demonstrations saying George W Bush is a "nazi"..
Wow Thor you are just to much
I am a "Quisling" because I don’t share you extreme view on the military?
You discuses like a typical neonazis everything that is bad with Sweden is the governments fault or the immigrant and every one that don’t share your opinion is a traitor and you must insult them .
You did take the easy way in life and I pity you and your hate-filled world
Go and join a neonazi discussion board and maybe you can find someone that like you
.
...I'm sorry, but seeing all homeguard people here (even the norwegian guy is a homeguarder) that sell out the army and their mates just breaks my heart. It's just such a sad thing to see.
ohh he is sorry ohh poor poor here is a lollipop to make you happy
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1116/lollipop2yw.jpg
Kanske han bara har mens? :roll:
*Runs for cover*
@Luno
What's your major malfunction...?
You know that normal officers and serving soldiers stand up for each other and their units. Here's just one example:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59289
And just as I said many officers don't want to have anything to do with the Homeguard.. Face it, you are just a coward baby that sell out yourself and your buddies as soon as you get a chance.
Try to go bashing american soldiers here the way you just did with troops from your own country, and see what happens... You for sure is a Quisling. As already stated, in times of war what you and other "homeguarders" would be held accountable for spreading disinformation and defaitism.
And as for your political discussion, drop it.. You have nothing on me. On this forum I have always stood up for civil liberties and to follow the laws of war. In the US I would vote republican, in Sweden socialist people would like to have me hanged for saying that.
Your major problem is that you probably come from a trashy world were George W Bush is a "nazi" and Lenin is a hero. That's your world, not mine. Why don't you tell all the americans/brits here what you, Lenin and your kind of people really think..
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1333/m221bh.jpg
Thor
So I am a Communist because I don’t like Neonazis and people that insult other members? Wow you don’t stop amazing me. My problem with you is that post after post you insult other members and if you don’t to that you complain about how some Swedish units sux like the “Air base ranger” or the “Homeguard” ,
You have already insulted 7 :| people in this thread (Caridon. Lenin. G3. Svanberg. Navy. Parzival and me) So please don’t come here and talk about soldiers stand up for each other and their units. Because you don’t know what that is
And also you totally ignored when a moderator did tell you to calm down you just keep on going .
khukuri
09-07-2005, 02:13 PM
Thor, does ones military bakground just dissappear as fast as you join the homeguard?
In my unit wh have poeple from signal, recon, coastalranger, truckdriver etc etc
Does the background of all those people suddenly not count?
Your major problem is that you probably come from a trashy world were George W Bush is a "nazi" and Lenin is a hero. That's your world, not mine. Why don't you tell all the americans/brits here what you, Lenin and your kind of people really think..
do you remember this thread Thor? It clearly show how much you like Americans war heros
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=41381&highlight=troll
So I am a Communist because I don’t like Neonazis and people that insult other members? Wow you don’t stop amazing me.
You're clearly a left winger/commie, no doubt about it. I have no idea why you are so fixated with nazis (for you that means people like George W Bush). I think it's because of your background.
My problem with you is that post after post you insult other members and if you don’t to that you complain about how some Swedish units sux like the “Air base ranger” or the “Homeguard”
Just the homeguarders here thank you.. And for the third time, the officer corps say the same thing as I just did. The reason why I came after you, you know very well; as the Quisling you are you bashed your own people and the whole swedish army.
You have already insulted 7 :| people in this thread (Caridon. Lenin. G3. Svanberg. Navy. Parzival and me)
So I have "insulted" a group of left wing homeguarders (of which one actually calls himself Lenin) that spread disinformation and defaitism.. :roll:
Of course Vacon/Parzival is not even that, he is just one of many revealed posers/liars that still float around here.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1049726
So please don’t come here and talk about soldiers stand up for each other and their units. Because you don’t know what that is
People can say whatever they want, but I dare to say that no one that knows me would question my loyalty. I'm there all the way.
And also you totally ignored when a moderator did tell you to calm down you just keep on going .
:D Riiight.. You posted a pic of Adolf Hitler telling me to suck him.. Clearly passing every barrier that a normal person has.
do you remember this thread Thor? It clearly show how much you like Americans war heros
That thread shows how strongly I feel for humanitarian values in times of war. Try imagine your own family burning in flames there.. Sounds like fun? Sometimes "collateral damage" can't be avoided though.
@Lenin
Would it be wrong if I just said that I wont discuss with people named Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot and similar?
Svanberg
09-07-2005, 03:32 PM
-->thor
just wanted to say that I am no left wing "tomte", and I am not in the homeguard. I am serving in the Swedish Army.
and about my statement earlier about not using conscripts to fight/arrest suspected terrorists was based on what several politicans from diffrent parties agreed on so I assumed it would be that way.
Im sorry if my assumption has hurt you in any way.
khukuri
09-07-2005, 03:38 PM
@Lenin
Would it be wrong if I just said that I wont discuss with people named Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot and similar?
hahahaha! nice way not to respond to an argument!
Im maybe a leftwinger but neither leninist nor communist, but you, hahaha you seem to be an example of an extreem rightwinger, not extreem as republican extreem, more like nationaldemokraterna extreem
Holstein
09-07-2005, 03:46 PM
What could the army do that the police cannot do today?
well the military have better transport abilities than the police( for example hkp4/hkp10, stridsbåt90, etc etc) and they have better radio systems.
khukuri
09-07-2005, 03:50 PM
What could the army do that the police cannot do today?
well the military have better transport abilities than the police( for example hkp4/hkp10, stridsbåt90, etc etc) and they have better radio systems.
thx for starting the discussion again. good point
caridon
09-07-2005, 04:58 PM
"ashle"? You mean "arsle"..
Ignorance is not an excuse for defaitism. In case of war that kind of talk would be illegal.
Sorry but in sweden dissent is not treason. I learned that in the navy :)
This is the last i will respont tho Thor as he is behaving as a major troll and:
"We should not feed the trolls"
/C
"ashle"? You mean "arsle"..
Ignorance is not an excuse for defaitism. In case of war that kind of talk would be illegal.
Sorry but in sweden dissent is not treason. I learned that in the navy :)
This is the last i will respont tho Thor as he is behaving as a major troll and:
"We should not feed the trolls"
/C
Great, but I still think you should do your homework on that.
and about my statement earlier about not using conscripts to fight/arrest suspected terrorists was based on what several politicans from diffrent parties agreed on so I assumed it would be that way.
Im sorry if my assumption has hurt you in any way.
But who has ever said anything about conscripts hunting terrorists... I can't really imagine this myself. The forces available will basically be the same as those supposed to be the swedish EU Battle Group + air and sea.
Yeah, this discussion got a little bit out of control.
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