The French SWAT

[kimouche]

I was just browsing around the webpage for the GIGN (Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale, i.e. French SWAT).
http://www.gign.org (for the interested).

I found the recruiting standards to be quite high and to include some interesting tasks. I know these forums deal with military stuff, but technically speaking, the "gendarmerie" is a branch of the french army that assists the police in treating with civilians.
I took the liberty of translating from their official page:
(and by the way, please spare me any comments regarding the french policy in the Iraqi conflict. I am french myself and totally disaggree with the french decisions but this topic here treats with military training not politics).

I-Fitness/Evasiveness/Stress Resistance:
*Timed obstacle course (performance must be at least that of a commando unit instructor)
*Tear gaz resistance':cry:'
*Confrontation with a k9 (nice doggy':fork:')
*Evasion course
*Aggressivity test (box match with another candidat)':bash:'

II-Physical Resistance:
*300 sit-ups (I can't do that':roll:')
*100 push-ups (I definitely can't do that':oops:')
*25 pull-ups (I can do that':D')

III-Swimming
*50m free swimming (timed)
*50m apnea (I can also do that'woot')
*50m stroke
*100m hands and feet tied (glubglubglub'rofl')
*Dive into a pool from 10m high (I already did that'p-)')

IV-Endurance:
*8000m run/walk with full gear/gun in less tah 60min (that looks hard':petting:'

V-Precision shooting
*lots of tests......

VI-BUNGY JUMPING!!!!! (what the....)
eliminatory if candidate refuses to jump (why that's original)

VII-Psychological evaluation (of course)

So how do you guys think that compares to other elite units' requirements? That already looks pretty hard, I can't imagine any higher standarts)

[FallenAngel]

damnit...i was expecting a joke about how the French suck.... ;)

[budanski]

- raising hands up in under .001 milliseconds.
- 20 meter obstacle skipping course
- soap extraction procedures drill

[Lobo]

Well, the French Gendarmerie is not a branch of the French Army. It's a police force half way between a civil and military organization. You find the same kind of units in Spain (Guardia Civil), Italy (Carabinieri), Chile (Carabineros)...

Due to its military nature the GIGN operators get HAHO-HALO training, for example. And its expected to perform hostage rescue operations abroad as the German KSK.

http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/France/GIGN/default.htm

http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/gign.html

http://www.specwarnet.com/miscinfo/azalee1.jpg
GIGN operator carrying a H&K 33 in the Operation Azalée (Comoros Islands, 1995).

[Kitsune]

GIGN is the french pendant ot the german GSG 9 and consists of around 100 operators. It was founded a year later, in 1974. It is known to be one of the worlds premier Counterterroist and HR Units. I have read somewhere that GIGN, since its inception, has conducted around 700 counterterrorist operations and freed around 500 hostages. The group lost 7 of its own members although many were wounded.

[Mal3]

One of their most famed missions being the resolving of a hostage taking in Djibouti where terrs had schoolchildren on a bus?

Are GIGN still revolver-toting?

[Trigger]

The one I remember is an airliner hostage rescue in Paris (1999?) very hairy shootout. Several wounded GIGN. All terrorists dead.

[kimouche]

The one I remember is an airliner hostage rescue in Paris (1999?) very hairy shootout. Several wounded GIGN. All terrorists dead.

It was actually in Marseille in 1994 (that's where they intervened. The hijacking took place in Algeria). The hijackers had taken about 240 hostages and it is suspected that they intended on crashing the plane somewhere in Paris. GIGN squad raided the airliner when all the terrorists had regrouped in the cockpit. No casualties.....except for all the terrorists.

[Mal3]

And that's the way it oughta be...

[Mal3]

You can find a description of what happened at Djibouti here: http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/Djibouti.html

There's also a link there to more French Special Forces info. If anybody is interested, seeing as the French don't seem very popular around here ;)

[Zoomie]

Well I wonder who gave the French the training in start??? Definatly not them. Also notice how that guy isn't using a French made weapon.

[Mal3]

I wonder how Delta got started. Notice how SAS operators rarely use British weapons. Are we being objective here?

How about US SpecOps types with HKs, Berettas and SIGs?

If you check out the weapons GIGN uses you will note a lot of French weapons. Still, there's also a lot of weapons from other countries, I'd venture a guess that GIGN operators would like to use the best weapons, whoever they're made by.

[Crispies]

Salut !!!
First sorry because i'm french so my english is a little bit rusty!

About GIGN
Lobo i'm sorry but you're wrong, La Gendarmerie is a branch of the french army as kimouche said, but it is a police force. About the photo are you sure about nationality of this guy ?

Some members have been lost during some train but only one was KIA.
Historically i don't know really but GIGN is not the GROM (wich is the polish copy of delta's proceedings).

And about weapons:
French SOF have reputation to be allergic to french weapons, they prefer models who are confirmed in operation i suppose, H&K weapons are used a lot. The MP-5 is the standard weapon as in a lot of intervention group.

Please stop with "french suck...", don't be insulting with all the french!

[Mal3]

Does the GIGN still have the revolver fixation? I find it rather strange, but if it works for them...

[Lobo]

Well, the Gendermerie Nationale belongs to the French Defence Ministry, as the 4th branch of the Armed Forces, not the Army.

Here you have the official webpage in French ;) :
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/gendarmerie/index.html

You can see the four branches: Armée de Terre ("Land Army"), Marine Nationale (National Navy), Armée de l'Air ("Air Army") and Gendamerie Nationale.

I can look for an article I read long ago in a Spanish magazine but in general, as the Spanish Guardia Civil, in peace times its has many roles: Traffic control, mountain rescue... In war time its role is to protect strategic point in national soil. And it could perform light infantry missions.

Here is the list of equipment. You cand find things like 28 VBC amored wheeled vehicles (armed with a 90mm gun) and 781 mortars (60mm and 81mm).
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/gendarmerie/lagendarmerie/moyens/_materiel.htm

Pictures of the VBC in:
http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/France/vehicules_a_roues/VBC-90/VBC_90_France_diaporama.htm

You can find information about the GIGN operation to rescue those hostage in that Air France plane here:
http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/gign.html
I remember when it happened and I remember also an article in Time magazine praising the GIGN. :D

By the way, I took that picture of one GIGN operator in Comores Islands from here:
http://www.specwarnet.com/miscinfo/azalee.htm

That picture was published in an Spanish magazine about the Operation Azalée. In that article was published another picture of a GIGN operator (the patch in his left arm was quite visible) carrying a SiG 551.

[Zach R.]

Revolver,you mean a 38. caliber?In the 70s when Germany's GSG-9 went into Somalia after the hijacking of that airliner.Thier main weapon was a 6 shot 38. revolver.After the point man had pumped all 5 remaing shots into this guy,he grabbed one of the terrorist's MPK's and showered this guy in bullets.That's why the MP5 was designed.

[Lobo]

I had heard they use the Manurhin MR-73.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg66-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/manurhin_mr73_1.jpg
You can see the GIGN patch in this picture.

Manurhin revolvers website:
http://www.chapuis-armes.com/VI_Chapuis/Anglais/en_frame.htm

The GIGN.org lists some revolvers among the GIGN weaponry, but not only the Manurhin but a couple of S&W models.
http://www.gign.org/accessoires/revolvers.php

[Mal3]

Revolver,you mean a 38. caliber?In the 70s when Germany's GSG-9 went into Somalia after the hijacking of that airliner.Thier main weapon was a 6 shot 38. revolver.After the point man had pumped all 5 remaing shots into this guy,he grabbed one of the terrorist's MPK's and showered this guy in bullets.That's why the MP5 was designed.

I'm fairly sure that GSG-9 used subguns in that op. One story does tell of a "failure to stop" with a pistol but I'm not sure what kind of pistol that was or why the operator was using it. I do think GSG-9 used the HiPower at some time in it's existence. Of course, I might be mistaken...

Also, I think the MP5 is older than you indicate. Also interestin about the Mogadishu rescue was the first use of flashbangs in action. An SAS guy flew to them with them and instructed the GSG-9 on the spot I think.

[Kitsune]

The first version of the MP5 is from the mid sixties. But H&K came up with a slightly improved version during the early seventies.
During the Mogadishu Op the MP5 was already used. It was this during this operation that SAS observers, who acted as councilors, noticed the precision of this SMG (SAS helped train GSG 9 in the beginning, training of both units is actually quite similar with cross training quite usual. And SAS provided the GSG 9 with the newly developed Flashbangs). After this operation SAS began using the MP5, too.

Concerning the incident Mal3 described, I have read that Ulrich Wegener, the GSG 9 Op-Commander emptied his S&W Model 36 Chief's Special revolver into one terrorist during a firefight in the cockpit. The terrorist still leveled his weapon at him but was cut down by a blast from another operators MP5, fired over Wegeners shoulder.

[Mal3]

Prior to that the SAS had experimented with using Ingrams (MAC 10s I think, don't know whether they were 9mm or .45 ACP) but were dissatisfied with their accuracy. They had the size for CQB but not the accuracy for a hostage situation.

Why on earth did Wegener have a Chief's Special??? I would understand it being a third gun under the circumstance but it is hardly a choice weapon for any battle. It's a holdout weapon, a fine one at that, but a holdout weapon none the less.

[Chops]

22 used the Ingram Model 10 in 9milly for a time, before that they used the L2A3 Sterling and occasionally the L34A1. The Model 10 was termed 'the phone booth gun' because that was the range you had to be at to ensure any accuracy. It perservered however into the late eighties as a 'car gun' in NI along with the MP5K.

GSG9 using the Model 60/Model 36? Scary but very true. My only guess is that they liked the compactness of the Model 60/36 for CQB but it worries me that several of their primary and secondary penetrators were carrying them. H&K P7M8s were on issue- why not carry these? Or VP70s? Never understood that one.

rgds

Chops

[Mal3]

Overpenetration issues?

[Chops]

Yeah could have been Mal. Can't remember when Geco started producing the BAT round so they were probably using pretty primitive hollowpoints in the MP5s or possibly FMJs to minimise feed problems. The MP5 was very tempremental feeding exotic loads- the curved mag was part of the fix.

.38 hollowpoints or early exotics would have fed fine in the little revolver so it may well have been a case of over penetration issues and reliability.

Rgds

Chops

[Mal3]

I just thought there were very few *working* hollow points in the 70s.

Of course what the public can get and what SpecOps troops can get can be quite different...

[Duke]

Well I wonder who gave the French the training in start??? Definatly not them.

The French have a long tradition and experience with terrorism and sabotage/espionage. (They invented the last two words.) As colonial masters of Northern Africa and Indochina, the french has extensive experience with guerilla tactics. The VC and Arab natiionistcs, which technically employ terroristic tactics. By 1973 the french formed the GIGN from a preexisting military police unit the Gendarmerie Nationale So, Sgt they didnt have help.


Does the GIGN still have the revolver fixation?
The GIGNs first issued piece was a 9mm. By 1975, the GIGN employed as a primary hangun the 357 mag and 44. Using the 5" bbl or the 3" bbl for concealment. They do use the 9mm for a backup. Today they still use all three. Ive already mentioned why some use revolvers over pistols.

[OzMan]

I've only skimmed over this forum, and didn't see it mentioned. Another elite CT unit in the French realm is RAID, the "Black Panthers". There isn't a whole lot of information about this group out there, just a few links and summaries at other sites, like specialoperations.com. They were on the cover of SWAT magazine a few years ago, and seemed to be just as good, if not better, than the GIGN. They were formed back in 1985, and what the difference is between RAID and the GIGN as far as jurisdiction or tactics, I've forgotten. There have been a couple of operations conducted by RAID that I've heard of; a HR at a school with a single shooter in the nineties, and several VIP protection operations. I'm not sure right now who they report to, but I don't believe it's the Gendermarie Nationale, though it may be.

And I've read a little about the GIGN, and many operators are making the switch to semi-auto pistols, like Berettas or Sig Sauers, and getting rid of the old Manhurin (sp?) revolvers. Some of their GSG9 counterparts advised this after their experience in Mogadishu in '77, after a point man picked up an MP5 from an injured operator (I read an operator, not a terrorist) after his six ran out so quickly. Obviously someone made some improvement, with the awesome HR mission at Marseilles in '94. And the terrorists stopped in Marseilles to refuel, requesting full fuel tanks. They intended to crash into the Eiffel Tower (Tour Eiffel for all you French out there). I've seen the video of the assualt and "borrowed" the idea into a book I'm writing. Hard to believe that it took 22 minutes to clear that plane. I laughed (sorry, I know I shouldn't) when the pilot climbed out of the cockpit window and fell to the ground, right on his ass, breaking something in his body (even though he ran away clutching his arm). Then one of the operators hung to the bottom of the stairtruck and fell from the same height and used his paratrooper skills to execute a proper PLF and walked away without a scratch.

And about "SpecOps" and ammunition, there are some rules. If it is a military unit, no matter what kind, they are regulated by the Geneva Convention. I'm not for sure on this, but I don't think the GC allows hollow point. But, if it is a civilian unit, they can use whatever they want. That's why such goodies as Law Grabber and Glaser are around.

[Mal3]

The Geneva forbids hollowpoints unless I'm badly mistaken. Rounds must be jacketed also.

I wonder if we mustn't take care that the bomb fragments are nice and round also? :cantbeli:

[Chops]

The Geneva Conventions does not apply to counter terrorist units- hollowpoints and exotics are used extensively. The Geneva Conventions consider terrorism as criminal activity not warfare.

rgds

Chops

[Mal3]

And about "SpecOps" and ammunition, there are some rules. If it is a military unit, no matter what kind, they are regulated by the Geneva Convention. I'm not for sure on this, but I don't think the GC allows hollow point. (my italics) But, if it is a civilian unit, they can use whatever they want. That's why such goodies as Law Grabber and Glaser are around.

Referring to that ;) [/i]

[OzMan]

I'm pretty sure that the Geneva Convention simply puts a wall between military and civilian. I don't believe that it specifies and makes more rules for "counter-terrorist" units. As far as I know. I could be wrong.

Oh, and RAID wasn't on the cover of SWAT magazine, but there was an article about them in it.

[Chops]

Hi fellas

The Conventions don't exempt counter terrorism units per se but they state that:

"To be protected by the Geneva Conventions, one must belong to an organized military force fighting in a given conflict. To qualify, such forces must:

have a chain of command,
be identifiable, usually by wearing uniforms,
follow the laws of war (which usually means not targeting civilians), and
carry arms openly."

Terrorists have generally been termed as criminals under the Conventions over the years. Thus CT units can use all manner of toys against them.

Rgds

Chops

[to free the oppressed]

that training sounds like what a dog goes through in basic training to be with the U.S. Military Police K-9 unit. :P

[Dominique]

Besides GIGN, EPIGN, and RAID, the French National Police have seven SWAT teams called GIPN that operate in there major cites and overseas terrritories.

[spetsnaz]

http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9024/1a0od.png

RAID Web Site

http://le.raid.free.fr

and other Unit

http://le.raid.free.fr/dossiers.htm

[Fantan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A_JOBCddQ0&playnext_from=TL&videos=p5-uBmfoUtE RAID in action.

[Fantan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivVRYYHLqJY&playnext_from=TL&videos=dYpPR17bixs French polcie have amazing dogs!