IAF Mirages ('Shahak')

[MolliG]

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/7/16747.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/5/16745.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/9/16749.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/1/16751.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/3/16753.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/5/16755.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/7/16757.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/9/16759.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/1/16761.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/3/16763.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/5/16765.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/7/16767.jpg

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/4/17014.jpg


Dassault Mirage IIIC Hebrew nickname: 'Shahak'

Primary Role: Interception and Attack

Origin: France

Dimensions: Wingspan: 8.22 m, Length: 14.77 m, Height: 4.25 m

Capabilities: Maximum speed: 2, 350 kph, Range: 1, 600 km

Weight: Empty: 5,915 kg, Armed: 11,800 kg

Power Plant: SNECMA Atar 9 jet engine with afterburner, with a thrust of 6,000 kg

Weapons: 2 DEFA 30 mm. cannon with 125 rounds each (not mounted when the plane is carrying booster rockets), external pods for detachable fuel tanks, missiles or bombs totalling 1,350 kg

The Mirage III, in my opinion, is one of, if the not the, best looking fighter aircraft around (get anyone to draw a modern jet, and they'll probably draw something looking like the Mirage III). Israeli pilots used these beautiful, but deadly, jets to take down numerous Egyptian and Syrian MiGs (etc), and hit enemy targets on the ground, during the many border clashes and The Six Day War, The War of Attrition and The Yom Kippur War. Stories (etc) from the battles/wars which the 'Shahak' did its part in can be found on its own little section on the IAF's website here (http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Aircraft/Aircraft.IN.aspx?lang=EN&lobbyID=69&folderID=78&docfolderID=184&docID=18178&currentPageNumber=2). All Mirages in IAF service have now been completely retired (I think), but from what I've read they, along with their modified copy the Kfir, served the IAF well.

All pictures (and the specifications) from the Israeli Air Force's official website, it can be found here (http://www.iaf.org.il/). It's a bloody excellent site, so I suggest you check it out!

woot

One question, for the Israeli members. What does 'Shahak' mean in English?

[S'13]

One question, for the Israeli members. What does 'Shahak' mean in English?

'Shahak' means heavens in English.

[mustamato]

(get anyone to draw a modern jet, and they'll probably draw something looking like the Mirage III).

Hm why?

But have to agree with that it´s nice. Although I find the Kfir to be even
more beautiful (with the canard wings).

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft7X/FRHeft77/FRH7704/FR7704c1.JPG

[S'13]

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/mirages.jpg
"Bat" squadron Mirage IIIB and three IIICs

[Gauntlet]

I think the Swedish Fighters look good too. Like the SAAB 37 Viggen
http://www.darklair.com/aircraft/viggen.jpg
And the Draken
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/saab-j35-draken-01.jpg

[IDFM203]

http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/7/16757.jpg


Good post there in general, Molli G :D

Oh and this is my favorite pic from the ones that your brought down for obvious reasons :D though I guess if its not as obvious to you as it was to me, well a hint would be to look at what’s right under the cockpit ;)

Now in this style of jet that you brought down, I prefer the look of the better Israeli made Kfir (which was based on this jet, though it had a lot of Israeli improvements to it)

For more info on the Israeli made Kfir, click Here (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/kfir/Kfir.html)

Here are a few pics of the Kfir (these pics are taken from israeli-weapons.com or from iaf.org.il)
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/kfir/kfir0.jpg
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/kfir/kfir_2.jpg
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/kfir/kfir.jpg
http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/7/16587.jpg


Now as for your statement “best looking fighter aircraft around” I think that’s a bit of a stretch as compared to some of the more modern jets that are now in existence.

Me personally, I think the F-15I or the F-16I are one of the best looking fighter aircraft in the world, but I guess when it comes to looks, like with women, its all in the eye of each individual and their own taste and as such I am sure there are others that have ones that they think are the “best looking” that are different that the ones that I chose.

Here is a pic of the F-15I and the F-16I

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-15i/f-15i_9.jpg
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/f-16i_r.jpg


Shalom :D

[S'13]

There is also the Nesher ('Dagger') which was the first fighter to be produced in Israel.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/images/sub/new/nesher.jpg

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell---giora.gif

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fighter/nesher-i.jpg

In the Yom Kippur War this fighter scored numerous kills but was eventually replaced by the Kfir. The IAF Neshers were sold to Argentina and were used against the British in the Falklands War.

[mustamato]

Me personally, I think the F-15I or the F-16I are one of the best looking fighter aircraft in the world, but I guess when it comes to looks, like with women, its all in the eye of each individual and their own taste and as such I am sure there are others that have ones that they think are the “best looking” that are different that the ones that I chose.

Here is a pic of the F-15I and the F-16I

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-15i/f-15i_9.jpg

Shalom :D

Just curious. Would it still be the most beautiful aircraft?

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/f-15i_9.jpg

[UoUo]

What a ugly aircraf...

;)

[mustamato]

http://www.modelrec.com/images/products/600/2202.jpg

This one I think is nice. Bf-109, or well actually Avia S-109 but what the hell. Still fun to see the star of David on it.

[Falco]

http://www.modelrec.com/images/products/600/2202.jpg

This one I think is nice. Bf-109, or well actually Avia S-109 but what the hell. Still fun to see the star of David on it.

We all have our opinions but the P51D is the nicest WW2 aircraft by far

[BlackRain]

..

[UoUo]

What your point ? that the F-15 F-14 F-16 are better from the mirage? Sure they are.

[BlackRain]

..

[Miles Teg]

I am just spilling a little venom on the French

Why?

[IDFM203]

Me personally, I think the F-15I or the F-16I are one of the best looking fighter aircraft in the world, but I guess when it comes to looks, like with women, its all in the eye of each individual and their own taste and as such I am sure there are others that have ones that they think are the “best looking” that are different that the ones that I chose.

Here is a pic of the F-15I and the F-16I

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-15i/f-15i_9.jpg

Shalom :D

Just curious. Would it still be the most beautiful aircraft?

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/f-15i_9.jpghehe ;)

Sure it will still be

The F-15I has a lot more Israeli parts and features to it then just the star of David emblem ;)

So it doesn’t matter what other nations insignia you PHOTOSHOP on the F-15I for its still a beautiful aircraft :D



What your point ? that the F-15 F-14 F-16 are better from the mirage? Sure they are. are you sure in ALL cases ;) ………..I mean a mirage with an Israeli pilot facing a F-15 F-14 or F-16 of another nation, I am not so sure you would be able to state that those planes are better ;) (or at least it will be hard to tell ;) )

Shalom :D

[perdurabo]

There is also the Nesher ('Dagger') which was the first fighter to be produced in Israel.

In the Yom Kippur War this fighter scored numerous kills but was eventually replaced by the Kfir. The IAF Neshers were sold to Argentina and were used against the British in the Falklands War.

I would love to hear more about Nesher and other IAF old planes or helos here in Poland we know very litle about them.

And Miles Teg Asterix r00lz but my favourite is Kakofonix (this "miusician" who lives on tree)

[Miles Teg]

And Miles Teg Asterix r00lz but my favourite is Kakofonix (this "miusician" who lives on tree)

LOL, in france he is called Assurancetourix. But Kakofonix is very fun and more adequat for the carachter. rofl

[BlackRain]

..

[Fox2]

I personally do not like the look of the Mirage, but that's just me.

Swedish aircraft are pretty sleek looking. Although the Drahkken looks a bit...strange. The wings just seem almost space-ship like. But the Gripen is all gravy. :D

I really like the look of some American planes. The F/A-18 looks very sleek. And you can't match the F-14 for menace factor.

The F-16I does indeed look very menacing, albeit a little overweight with those conformal tanks. ;)



I mean a mirage with an Israeli pilot facing a F-15 F-14 or F-16 of another nation, I am not so sure you would be able to state that those planes are better

Just as an aside, does the Mirage have the same beyond visual range capability as those American designs? I have not studied up on the Mirage's capabilities that detailed, so, does anyone else know? What kind/quality of radar does the Kfir use? Its range?

[IDFM203]

The F-16I does indeed look very menacing, albeit a little overweight with those conformal tanks. ;)
you know the F-16I can fly with them on or with out them,

Here is a pic of the F-16I with out them

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/f-16I_f1.jpg


They will probably be used like this for normal operations though those conformal tanks can be added when/if needed ;)

Just note that the F-16I has a lot more Israeli advancements then just those conformal tanks :D

Shalom :D

[BlackRain]

First....A little Kfir History

F-21A was the designation given to 25 Israel Aircraft Industries Kfir C.1 fighters that were leased for a few years by the US Navy and US Marine Corps from Israel in 1985 for dissimilar air combat training. The purpose was to use these jets as cannon fodder for American fighter combat training.

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/kfir/kfir_pic2.jpg
Picture: US Navy F-21 Cannon Fodder

The Dassault Mirage IIICJ had long been an important part of the Israel Defense Force/Air Force (IDF/AF), and had played a key role in establishing Israeli air superiority during the Six-Day War in 1967.

However, there was some room for improvement. There were problems with the jet engine exhaust of the Mirage IIICJ and the Cyrano II fire control radar was unreliable and hard to maintain. Even before the Six-Day War, the IDF/AF had proposed to Dassault that they should produce a cheaper version of the Mirage III without a fire-control radar. The omission of the radar and the related electronics would make it possible to carry an additional 500 liters of fuel. In addition, the Atar 9B of the Mirage IIICJ was to be replaced by the more reliable and more fuel-efficent Atar 9C. Israel placed an order for 50 of these aircraft, designated Mirage 5J.

However, at the end of the Six-Day War in 1967, the government of France under President Charles de Gaulle underwent a change in its foreign policy, and decided to embargo the delivery of the batch of Mirage 5Js that the IDF/AF had ordered and which were already built and ready for delivery to Israel. The planes were redesignated Mirage 5F, and were delivered instead to the Armee de l'Air.

Faced with a continuing threat from its Arab neighbors, Israel concluded that it could no longer be certain of a supply of combat aircraft from overseas, and decided that it had to manufacture combat aircraft on its own.

Kfir Variants

C1, C2, TC2, C7, TC7, F-21A

Operators:

Colombia, Ecuador, Sri Lanka, Israel (in reserve)

Avionics Pack

The latest upgrade is the Kfir-C10 standard, the upgrade is developed for export. It features a new Elta EL/M-2032 multimode radar, capability to use a HMD (Helmet Mounted Display) and Python IV air-to-air missiles and two 127x177mm Multi-Function Displays produced by Astronautics. Brazil will lease 12 Kfir-C10s to replace the Mirage IIIEBR until the arrival of the FX program aircraft.


Specification of IAI F-21A (Kfir C.1)

Engine: One IAI Bedek Division-built General Electric J79-J1E turbojet, rated at 11,890 lb.s.t. dry, 18,750 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Performance: Maximum speed (clean) 1516 mph at 36,000 feet, 862 mph at sea level.
Ferry range 2000 miles with one 343 US gallon and two 449 US gallon drop tanks. Combat radius 480 miles with two AAMs with one 218 US gallon and two 343 US gallon drop tanks. Initial climb rate 45,930 feet per minute.
An altitude of 50,000 feet in 5 minutes 10 seconds. Stabilized supersonic ceiling 58,000 feet.
Dimensions: Wingspan 26 feet 11 1/2 inches, length 51 feet 4 1/4 inches, height 14 feet 11 1/4 inches, wing area 374.6 square feet.
Weights: 16,060 lbs empty, 22,961 lbs. normal takeoff, 36,376 pounds maximum takeoff.
Armament: Two Rafael-built DEFA 553 30-mm cannon in the wing roots, each with 125 rounds of ammunition. Two Rafael Shafrir infrared-homing air-to-air missiles are normally carried underneath the outer wings.

[Fox2]

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/f-16I_f1.jpg


They will probably be used like this for normal operations though those conformal tanks can be added when/if needed ;)

Just note that the F-16I has a lot more Israeli advancements then just those conformal tanks :D

Shalom :D

Yes, I know that they can be removed and that there are more enhancements. ;)

I do like them a little better than the fuel tanks on the pylons. Very practical. Center of gravity is always close to center, and it frees up a pylon! :D Just looks a little bloated, that's all... ;)

Personally, I think we (The US) might have been better off just developing the F-16 a little bit longer instead of switching to the F-35. Sure, you get stealth and some VTOL capability in one of the models. But honestly, there isn't a time in the foreseeable future when we'll really NEED that. The F-16 is still a viable lightweight fighter.

[gilgoul]

http://www.modelrec.com/images/products/600/2202.jpg

This one I think is nice. Bf-109, or well actually Avia S-109 but what the hell. Still fun to see the star of David on it.

For your information MUSTAMATO, the nascent IDF, and the Hagannah sufferred from a complete embargo on weapons, while egypt, jordan and Syria where enjoying a free access on 8th army surplus from WW2.
As a results the jews were armed with taken former german weapons, smuggled and later imported mainly from the then democratic republic of tchequoslovakia. K98, mg42, messerschmitts and other spandau where the bulk of the IDF `s armament, while the arabs where able to align the all catalogue of the british and french armies, including brand new spitfire Mk8 and numbers of matilda and other tanks, including a few panzer IV under the syrians flag (I don`t know from where).

Once again, you should try to get some info before becoming sarcastic :slap:

[BlackRain]

The F-16 is still a viable lightweight fighter.

This is true. However, the USA needs to continue to develop new weapons from a technology stand point.

The 5th generation fighters will replace these aging 1970's platforms that have been modified numberous times.

The research into new radar (active and passive), stealth, low operating cost, and lethality leads to innovative designs, rather that trying to improve an antiquated design.

There are those in the USAF that would love to replace the human pilot and make these new airframes automonous. Why risk one single US pilot? You are seeing the evolution of this process with UAV's used in the Gulf War for real time tatical data linking.

[Fox2]

There are those in the USAF that would love to replace the human pilot and make these new airframes automonous. Why risk one single US pilot? You are seeing the evolution of this process with UAV's used in the Gulf War for real time tatical data linking.

NEVER! Pilots! Unite against the robots! :D

Ok, sorry. That is an emotional issue for me. :oops:

But yes, I understand the need for technological innovation. I'm just saying that, given our likely enemies in a future war, developing the F-16, (or indeed, simply using the already-developed models now in use by other countries!) to its full extent has a number of advantages:

1. Lower cost.

2. Bigger payload than the JSF (Guessing on this one.)

3. No need for dramatic retraining.

4. Diplomatic strength gained by developing and using the F-16 together with many, MANY nations.

But, yes, the F-35 is the monkey's bananas when it comes to technological innovation and advancement, but I wonder if it is really needed?

I guess what will most likely happen is the current F-16s will be upgraded in minimal ways, meanwhile the F-35 being slowly transitioned into the inventory.







The F-16 still looks prettier though, so nyah! :P ;)

[Alain-James]

BlackRain...

http://www.ely.anglican.org/education/2003/graphics/straitjacket.jpg

Speak less loudly... My ears are getting tired when hit by unthought rubbish.
Open books, switch on the white soft thing you perhaps have in your head, and then come back to talk as a serious people with serious facts if ever you want to start a serious debate...

but please, get a little older...

AJ

[Fox2]

BlackRain...

http://www.ely.anglican.org/education/2003/graphics/straitjacket.jpg

Speak less loudly... My ears are getting tired when hit by unthought rubbish.
Open books, switch on the white soft thing you perhaps have in your head, and then come back to talk as a serious people with serious facts if ever you want to start a serious debate...

but please, get a little older...

AJ

That was not nice. :|

I don't see any need for that, though. I didn't see anything wrong with his posts. He's entitled to his opinions, even if they are a bit hard on the French. Calling him young and unintelligent isn't solving anything, and it doesn't bring any "serious debate" to the table.

Simply stating, "Tu est tres stupide!" because you don't like what someone says is not going to help the situation or cause anything but a pissing match. And no one really gains anything from that.

Instead, tell us what he said you think is wrong, and offer counter-points.



Be nice, people.

[BlackRain]

Thanks for watching my six Fox2.

I thought is was curious that troll joined today....

Joined: 24 Jan 2004
Posts: 1

Just to attack me. This method of drive-by attack is common among those who can't debate with facts they just attack the messenger.

[Fox2]

Nah, he probably was just browsing the forums. I assume he's French, so when he saw your comments, he felt offended. He felt he had to refute them. But the way in which he responded was not too wise. I mean, I understand why he got angry. He's entitled to state he has been offended, but resorting to personal insults or badgering is not the way to go.

I agree with your general view of the French government, that it went out of its way to try and impede us from doing what needed to be done. I disagree with their government, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not going to generalize the whole nation, but I think overall they are not a bad people. Some French people I have met have been very nice.

The only way to stop this abundance of anti-American opinion is to remember we represent our country wherever we go. Tell them how it is, but be polite. Of course, there's always going to be SOMEONE against us, but that's their problem.

[Alain-James]

I don't see any need for that, though. I didn't see anything wrong with his posts. He's entitled to his opinions, even if they are a bit hard on the French. Calling him young and unintelligent isn't solving anything, and it doesn't bring any "serious debate" to the table.
Well...


Miles Teg wrote:
Quote:
I am just spilling a little venom on the French

Why?

Blackrain:
Are you serious?

The French are fair weather allies to the USA. The average American really did not have a negative opinion of France until war on terrorism.

Perhaps, it is because France is no longer France. The French Ministry of Interior and one of France's leading demographers at the National Institute for the Study of Demographics estimates that up to 25 % of males below the age of 16 years are of Arab ethnic origin.
Tell me if I am wrong, but what are this kind of things supposed to do with an plane-estetism discussion? What is that man is supposed to be, bashing planes because of their nationality (which are not related though) with wrong arguments and simply because he ? If he's not a trollmonger with the only goal to annoy a group of people because he's happy, tell me what he is...
Tell me if you still "don't see anything wrong" with this kind of people who make a forum dirty and any debates inept...

About the wrong says - and wrong is a little word, Im surprised everyone seems to aknowledge them

most notably in air combat between the Syrians and the Israelis over the Bacca valley. I believe the final score on that occasion was 82 to zero, but not all the destroyed Syrian aircraft were Mirages; there was a MIG or two in the loss column.
lack of general culture?
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_270.shtml
does anyone else here think seriously Syria ever owned Mirages in 1982 in a way or another?


Iranian F-14As are known to have shot down at least three Iraqi fighters, including two Mirage F1s in 1984.

An Iranian Tomcat achieved a kill against an Iraqi Mirage F1 as late as the spring of 1988, indicating that the IRIAF was able to keep at least one Tomcat operational.

No comment - facts still speak for themselves - with a little research, you'll quickly find out that F-14 is said to have shot down more than 2 Iraqi Mirages, and that the Mirages downed also some F-14s. In a way or another, what's the point?


we never recovered them
?are we talking about same crew? because the one I know about liberated already 8 years ago...

Well in a few words that's not what is said that annoys me a little, out of the fact that half of what is said is not even true... What annoys me is the hard work of finding a sense to all of this, and a reason why such a "thing" is posted here and now... if it is not made to heaten the minds and satisfy a pure unthought aggressive childish state of mind, so tell me what it is...

So one more time,

Instead, tell us what he said you think is wrong, and offer counter-points.
What I think is wrong - and what I think we can objectively think is wrong - was written just over these lines. But I think there is no counterpoint to offer: when something is inept in itself, it is meanless. Can anyone here tell me where is there a debate, instead of this aggressive boy's head?

No need to say that I don't read this board with the goal to be disturbed by this kind of folk...

AJ

[Alain-James]

Just to attack me. This method of drive-by attack is common among those who can't debate with facts they just attack the messenger.
Im sorry - I assume you are also a very active member with thousand serious messages as I can read it :lol:
facts are just over this message - have a good read if you can




I mean, I understand why he got angry
Im not angry, Im just surprised that such people may find an audience over this board...


The only way to stop this abundance of anti-American opinion is to remember we represent our country wherever we go. Tell them how it is, but be polite.
This said, do you really see your comrade Blackrain as a good America advocate? Good faith and politeness are things he should rework in order to prevent people from thinking that the US are full of people of his kind - something I don't think to be true thanks god...

AJ

[Fox2]

Thanks for responding, Alain-James.

Again, I do not see any petty insults or name-calling in his posts. Although I do not agree with some of BlackRain's points, I still stand by what I said. He is entitled to his opinion about French warplanes, if that is his opinion. Just as you are entitled to yours, and I am entitled to mine.


This said, do you really see your comrade Blackrain as a good America advocate? Good faith and politeness are things he should rework in order to prevent people from thinking that the US are full of people of his kind - something I don't think to be true thanks god...

I will not place judgement on BlackRain as to whether he is a "good American advocate" or not. I just wanted to remind everyone here to be civil.

My comment could just have easily been about stopping anti-French sentiments, or any other demographic that has opposition in the world. Stand by your convictions, be polite, and don't resort to petty insults to debate, is all I'm trying to say.

Again, thanks for responding, Alain-James and good day to you.

[Alain-James]

Im ok with it Fox - thanks for your moderated and peaceful intervention.

Sorry to have given the impression to be hateful in any way. As I didn't pointed it out clearly enough, the thing that made me react is more the Blackrain's answer to Miles Teg interrogation - in fact, the motivations of the Blackrain's post themselves. Once he detailed them, there is nothing to add about this point :|

Sorry if I have seemed to be rude - wasn't my real attention.

Good day to you Fox and thanks!

AJ

[juhae]

jews were armed with taken former german weapons, smuggled and later imported mainly from the then democratic republic of tchequoslovakia. K98, mg42, messerschmitts and other spandau where the bulk of the IDF `s armament,
Avia S. 199, not Messerschmitt Bf-109G14. (In my opinion the Jumo engine of S. 199 does matter, as it worsened the flight characteristics quite considreably and was an implementation carried on by Avia alone.)

[mustamato]

...The average American really did not have a negative opinion of France until war on terrorism...

Just watched "Deathrace 2000", the old classic from 1978 with Stallone and David Carradine. Guess who Americas enemy was? Yep the frenchies.



Once again, you should try to get some info before becoming sarcastic :slap:

And did I try to be sarcastic or did you just wish that I was?

[BlackRain]

History of Recovery Efforts for Downed French Flight EBRO 33

A)
At 1716, EBRO 33, a French Mirage 2000K was shot down by a man-portable surface-to-air missile, 20 NM SE of Pale; two good chutes were observed; efforts to locate and rescue the downed aircrew continued around the clock, supported by a wide variety of NATO and National assets, for the duration of DELIBERATE FORCE. (1)

B)


Also useful is knowledge of the failed recovery of Ebro 33, a French Mirage crew shot down in late August of 1995 during the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s (NATO) Operation Deliberate Force. We never established radio contact with the survivors and never determined their location. Although we had rescue forces available and possibly had sufficient force to establish enough local superiority, we never recovered them; in fact, friendly forces were injured in the search efforts. (2)

C)
TRANSCRIPT

ADMIRAL LEIGHTON SMITH COMMANDER IN CHIEF ALLIED FORCES SOUTHERN EUROPE

PRESS CONFERENCE AFSOUTH HEADQUARTERS, NAPLES 1700 (Naples time) 22 Sept 95

You probably now know that NATO forces did in fact conduct reconnaissance missions on 6, 7, and 8 Sept. in attempts to fix the location of and rescue the two French aviators that were shot down on the 30th of Aug. These forces were operating out of Italian bases and off the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt in the Adriatic. Let me first point out the difference between a reconnaissance mission and a rescue mission. A pickup or rescue mission is similar to that which was conducted for Capt. Scott O'Grady. You will recall that we had voice communications with Capt. O'Grady, he had authenticated his call sign, we knew his precise location and we knew that he was physically well enough to get to a helicopter if we got into the area. For this mission we did not have any voice communications, but we did have other convincing evidence to include a photograph which showed what appeared to be a 3 with the outline of a Mirage aircraft, another 3, followed by the letters E,B, and something beyond that which I was not personally able to make out. The call sign of the aircraft that was shot down was EBRO -33. There was an individual photographed standing on the road adjacent to this sign, pointing to it. This photograph was taken by a German reconnaissance aircraft and a very sharp photograph interpreter spotted this and reported it up the line. At about 1 o'clock in the morning on the 6th of Sept, Gen. Ryan called me having just viewed this photograph. He expressed his confidence that this was worth an effort to send a reconnaissance team and I concurred with that, and called Gen. George Joulwan, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, and asked for and got his permission to carry out this mission. Now the reason we were able to do this is, earlier, we had been briefed by some young men from the combat search and rescue organization on board the Theodore Roosevelt as well as our operation forces out of Brindisi, and I was convinced that they had done some very good planning to navigate to this objective area to conduct reconnaissance in the area and to egress out of the area. So we knew that there had been considerable work done and that's why Gen. Ryan and I elected to go up our chain of command and recommend that we conduct the mission. In the very early morning hours on the 6th, we launched two HH 60 helicopters from the Roosevelt; they were backed up by H-53 helicopters out of Brindisi, close air support aircraft, suppression of enemy air defense aircraft, combat air patrol, NATO AWACs, airborne command and control, the entire package. The HH 60s were not able to reach the objective area, they were unfortunately turned back by weather. They were engaged -- one of the aircraft took a hit, no one was hurt, they landed safely back aboard the Roosevelt. Early on the 7th, we launched the second attempt out of Brindisi, this time using assets from the Joint Special Operations Task Force down there. It consisted of MH-53Js, a series of 130-type aircraft -- tankers, airborne command and control, the AC-130. They were accompanied by a second package of MH53Js to back up the first. The two helicopters that went into the objective area traveled in, got to the objective area, spent a considerable amount of time in the area searching, but unfortunately very dense ground fog prevented them from locating the individuals that they were searching for. So they contemplated going back in, but aircraft that had remained in the area reported that the weather was in fact getting worse, and so we agreed to terminate this mission and they proceeded home. They were engaged with rather fulsome small arms fire as they were exiting the area, but none of the aircraft on that mission were hit. Late the night of the 7th, early the morning of the 8th, we launched our third mission. This mission went in to the same objective area. The weather was clear, it had the same package that I briefed you earlier. Included in this entire package were all of the NATO aircraft; again, this was a NATO operation. We had in the aircraft roughly 15 or 16 individuals in each of the MH53Js that went in. They consisted of the crew of the helicopter, special operations forces, both US Air Force and Army. And we had with them special representatives from the French Air Force. These aircraft went into the area, the weather was good, they spent almost 30 minutes in the area, again, conducting reconnaissance over specific points where we thought we had the best opportunity to locate the pilots. Shortly after arriving in the area, one of the helicopters received one small arms hit. They elected to remain. Towards the end of the time in the area, they were engaged by additional small arms. They considered this to be fairly heavy fire. At this point, one of the helicopters was hit with at least one round, and two of the crewmen were injured or wounded as a result of shrapnel. These were not life- threatening wounds, in fact the two crewmen continued to man their stations and carry out their duties throughout the remainder of the mission. These helicopters exited and as they were leaving the objective area, they were brought under fire; that fire was engaged in self defense by overhead fixed-wing aircraft specifically F-18s and A-10s. As they began further egressing, they were again engaged and that fire was engaged by an overhead AC-130. The aircraft then departed, refueled, and returned to Brindisi, their home base. The two individuals who were injured have been returned to the United States; one of them has been returned to duty, the other is on convalescent leave. We are extraordinarily proud of what these young men did in all three of these missions. I would clearly not classify them as failures. These were reconnaissance missions, they were done professionally, and they did exactly what they set out to do -- unfortunately we did not locate the French pilots and the search continues. Before I take your questions, let me express my very deep appreciation to the news media who had knowledge of these events, and at our request, did not report them. I have the greatest respect for those news media who chose not to report these details, because they knew, as I had asked them to withhold reporting, that by doing so would have potential for compromising future missions of this nature. Again, my hat's off, I very much appreciate that. With that, I'd be happy to take any questions you might have.

Q (AP): Can you tell us whether you know for certain if these two pilots are alive?

A: I have no information on the pilots at this point. I certainly put them in the same category as we did with Captain O'Grady; we will continue to conduct our search missions, until such time as I have convincing evidence to the contrary, and I do not have that at this time.



Footnotes for those who need proof.

1. http://www.afsouth.nato.int/factsheets/DeliberateForceFactSheet.htm
2. http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj00/sum00/whitcomb.htm
3. http://www.hri.org/news/misc/misc-news/95-09-22.misc.html

[BlackRain]

The French are fair weather allies to the USA. The average American really did not have a negative opinion of France until war on terrorism.

Supporting evidence:

A)

Americans Still Reluctant to Call France an "Ally"

U.S. image of France continues to be tainted by Iraq war disagreement

The apparent damage done to Americans' perceptions of France, as a result of France's clash with the United States over Iraq policy, is a long way from being repaired.

According to a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, two-thirds of Americans consider France an ally or friendly to the United States but this is down sharply from three years ago.

The poll also finds a majority of Americans disagreeing with France's opposition to the war in Iraq. The public is less critical of France's motives in this matter, although a sizeable minority of Americans are willing to say that France mainly opposed the war in order to reduce U.S. power and influence internationally, rather than on legitimate policy grounds.

B)
The most interesting reason given for the French opposition to the war involves the five million Muslims living in France, most of whom are Arab.

Political observers suggest the French president, Jacques Chirac, felt compelled to oppose the war partly because of France‚s Muslims. Chirac feared that French support for the United States would trigger violence by the Muslim population living in the banlieues difficiles (the equivalent of the American inner city but located in the suburbs).

According to a recent poll by a French newspaper, 72 percent of Muslims in France wanted the United States to lose the war in Iraq. Chirac‚s apparent appeasement of France‚s Muslims is distressing. The French president seems content with being le roi des Beurs instead of aspiring to be le Roi-Soleil.


Footnotes

1) http://gofrance.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030926.asp
2) http://www.umassmedia.com/news/2003/05/15/Opinion/France.Americas.Abysmal.Ally-436040.shtml

[mustamato]

The F-16I does indeed look very menacing, albeit a little overweight with those conformal tanks. ;)
you know the F-16I can fly with them on or with out them,

Here is a pic of the F-16I with out them

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/f-16I_f1.jpg


They will probably be used like this for normal operations though those conformal tanks can be added when/if needed ;)

Just note that the F-16I has a lot more Israeli advancements then just those conformal tanks :D

Shalom :D

How does it feel that the UAE F-16 is more advanced than F-16I despite all those israeli advancements?

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/events/oct_00/images/oct00_events17.jpg
UAE´s.

[UkrainianAmerican]

The F-16I does indeed look very menacing, albeit a little overweight with those conformal tanks. ;)
you know the F-16I can fly with them on or with out them,

Here is a pic of the F-16I with out them

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/f-16I_f1.jpg


They will probably be used like this for normal operations though those conformal tanks can be added when/if needed ;)

Just note that the F-16I has a lot more Israeli advancements then just those conformal tanks :D

Shalom :D

How does it feel that the UAE F-16 is more advanced than F-16I despite all those israeli advancements?

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/events/oct_00/images/oct00_events17.jpg
UAE´s.
I would put my money on israeli-operated f16I any day.

[Fox2]

I think they are very similar to each other in performance, and in the end, the quality of the pilot would decide the victor.

In which case I'm with RussianAmerican, my money's on the IAF. ;)

[BlackRain]

The first flight of the X-35A was at October 24, 2000 with LMTAS test pilot Tom Morgenfeld. The X-35A test-program ended November 22, 2000 after 27 test-flights and is rebuild as the X-35B.

F-16 Replacement Timeline - The JSF F-35

The X-35B Short-take-off/vertical-landing (STOVL) variant, with its unique shaft-driven lift-fan propulsion system, achieved its first vertical take-off and vertical landing on June 23, 2001.


The X-35C first flight February 12, 2001 is the carrier variant, completed 250 practice carrier landings at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, MD.

This is the Navy version of the JSF will be similar to the Air Force version except with a stronger internal structure, landing gear, bigger wing, and arresting hook to allow carrier landings.



Production planning:

USAF 1763

USMC 609

USN 480

RAF/Navy 150

First operational aircraft (F-35) delivery is planned for Fiscal Year 2008.

Other Countries Considering Replacing the F-16 with the F-35

Talks have been held between representatives of the Dutch cabinet and the Dutch Aerospace Cluster about the position of the Netherlands in relation to further participation in the US jet fighter, the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), which is one of the possible choices as the successor to the current generation of jet fighters, the F16.

Royal Australian Air Force : What we're announcing today is that we've decided, as a government, to participate in the system development and demonstration phase of the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter. Being S35. We've decided to do that on the basis of advice from the Air Force that they believe it will meet the capability requirements that we are seeking through their 6,000 project. That is as a replacement for the FA-18 and the F1-11.

[mustamato]

I think they are very similar to each other in performance, and in the end, the quality of the pilot would decide the victor.

In which case I'm with RussianAmerican, my money's on the IAF. ;)

No they are not. UAE´s F-16 is more or less of a new generation (featuring technology that can be found only in F-22), while the F-16I is a israeli advancement of a previous (or current) generation F-16. In example the radar range and characteristics of the UAE´s F-16 is far superior. And "quality of the pilot". Well in romantic dogfight dreams perhaps. With UAE´s radar locked on and a missile away that doesn´t matter much. And bear in mind that if there was to be a conflict between F-16I and UAE´s F-16 it would probably be because those F-16I´s are on UAE airspace, thus the F-16I would hardly have the advantage anyway.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I think they are very similar to each other in performance, and in the end, the quality of the pilot would decide the victor.

In which case I'm with RussianAmerican, my money's on the IAF. ;)

No they are not. UAE´s F-16 is more or less of a new generation (featuring technology that can be found only in F-22), while the F-16I is a israeli advancement of a previous (or current) generation F-16. In example the radar range and characteristics of the UAE´s F-16 is far superior. And "quality of the pilot". Well in romantic dogfight dreams perhaps. With UAE´s radar locked on and a missile away that doesn´t matter much. And bear in mind that if there was to be a conflict between F-16I and UAE´s F-16 it would probably be because those F-16I´s are on UAE airspace, thus the F-16I would hardly have the advantage anyway.
If you dont know what you are talking about, please keep quiet.

[mustamato]

I think they are very similar to each other in performance, and in the end, the quality of the pilot would decide the victor.

In which case I'm with RussianAmerican, my money's on the IAF. ;)

No they are not. UAE´s F-16 is more or less of a new generation (featuring technology that can be found only in F-22), while the F-16I is a israeli advancement of a previous (or current) generation F-16. In example the radar range and characteristics of the UAE´s F-16 is far superior. And "quality of the pilot". Well in romantic dogfight dreams perhaps. With UAE´s radar locked on and a missile away that doesn´t matter much. And bear in mind that if there was to be a conflict between F-16I and UAE´s F-16 it would probably be because those F-16I´s are on UAE airspace, thus the F-16I would hardly have the advantage anyway.
If you dont know what you are talking about, please keep quiet.

Ouch, a lethal oneliner :roll:

[Fox2]

No they are not. UAE´s F-16 is more or less of a new generation (featuring technology that can be found only in F-22), while the F-16I is a israeli advancement of a previous (or current) generation F-16. In example the radar range and characteristics of the UAE´s F-16 is far superior. And "quality of the pilot". Well in romantic dogfight dreams perhaps. With UAE´s radar locked on and a missile away that doesn´t matter much. And bear in mind that if there was to be a conflict between F-16I and UAE´s F-16 it would probably be because those F-16I´s are on UAE airspace, thus the F-16I would hardly have the advantage anyway.

Are you sure of this? I was under the impression that both the F-16I and the UAE's F-16 were improved Block 60 models. Do you have any sources?

Unfortunately, I would have to disagree with you on pilot skill. Pilot skill makes a world of difference. It's not as simple as "Point, click, missile away!" Although, admittedly, the likelihood of UAE and Israeli pilots meeting in the air is slim to none, I would also have to agree with your assessment that the Israelis would be in UAE airspace. Most of Israeli warfighting doctrine is based on defense and counter-defense.

I am beginning to feel there is more of a purpose behind your assumptions than pure fact versus fact. But of course, everyone I suppose is guilty of that. ;)

[IDFM203]

The F-16I does indeed look very menacing, albeit a little overweight with those conformal tanks. ;)
you know the F-16I can fly with them on or with out them,

Here is a pic of the F-16I with out them

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/f-16I_f1.jpg


They will probably be used like this for normal operations though those conformal tanks can be added when/if needed ;)

Just note that the F-16I has a lot more Israeli advancements then just those conformal tanks :D

Shalom :D

How does it feel that the UAE F-16 is more advanced than F-16I despite all those israeli advancements?

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/events/oct_00/images/oct00_events17.jpg
UAE´s. what kind of question is this? I mean what does it have to do with this thread? :roll:

Hell, I might as well ask you, how does it feel that Israeli planes are more advanced then anything that Sweden has or that Swedish pilots cant even compete with Israeli pilots on a one to one engegments no matter what plane they are flying in??

Oh and you can give the UAE the F-16U or even the F-35 as if I care, Ill still take an Israeli piloted "anything" against that any time ;) :D

P.S. Israel opted for the improved F-16I instead of the UAE version that the U.S. built for them, simply to reinforce existing stocks, but its real focous is on the F-35 which will also have some Israeli avionics and electronics in it.

Shalom :D

[mustamato]

I am beginning to feel there is more of a purpose behind your assumptions than pure fact versus fact. But of course, everyone I suppose is guilty of that. ;)

Well, IDFM203 seems to be quite confident in that the there is nothing superior to israeli advancements, just see his above post in example. That´s why I posted that first post about UAE´s F-16.

Here is a good thread about that anyway, especially AFAcadets posts:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7563&highlight=afacadet

[He219]

Are you sure of this? I was under the impression that both the F-16I and the UAE's F-16 were improved Block 60 models. Do you have any sources?

The F-16I is a further development of Lockheed Martin's advanced F-16 Block 50/52-series fighter, which has also been selected by Chile, Greece, Oman and Poland.

A total of 102 two-seat F-16Is will be delivered to Israel under two production contracts worth a combined $4.4 billion.
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw031117_1_n.shtml


Air force programs are dominated by the F-16C/D Block 60 Desert Falcon contract worth US$6.4 billion. The F-16 contract was signed in May 2000; deliveries of 55 F-16Cs and 25 F-16Ds are scheduled to start next year and run until 2007.
http://www.janes.com/regional_news/africa_middle_east/news/jidr/jidr030303_1.shtml


No offense intended.
:hug:

[IDFM203]

I am beginning to feel there is more of a purpose behind your assumptions than pure fact versus fact. But of course, everyone I suppose is guilty of that. ;)

Well, IDFM203 seems to be quite confident in that the there is nothing superior to israeli advancements, just see his above post in example. That´s why I posted that first post about UAE´s F-16.

ahhh, when did I say that?? :roll: Gees this is how flame wars erupt (which seems like your itching for it to happen :roll: )…I ask, do not put false words in my mouth!!



All I said was that I would take an Israeli piloted F-16 over a UAE piloted one.

As for which is better, well yes what’s publicly known is that the American built F-16E/F is a bit better however there is a lot that’s unknown about the F-16I for a lot of it is not public knowledge. (a lot of the Israeli add on's are classified)

Though if you want to get an exact quote, I will say that "there is nothing better then Israeli advancements coupled with an Israeli pilot", Ill stand by that statement.

But again “Israel opted for the improved F-16I instead of the UAE version that the U.S. built for them, simply to reinforce existing stocks, but its real focus is on the F-35 which will also have some Israeli avionics and electronics in it"

Shalom :D

[Fox2]

None taken, mate. None taken. ;)

To be honest, I was unsure of it myself.



But even with all that....I would still put my money on the IAF ;)

Sure, call me stubborn. Call me bigotted. Call me an American Imperialist pig, for all I care. But I am not gonna lose my money! :P

[UkrainianAmerican]

Are you sure of this? I was under the impression that both the F-16I and the UAE's F-16 were improved Block 60 models. Do you have any sources?

The F-16I is a further development of Lockheed Martin's advanced F-16 Block 50/52-series fighter, which has also been selected by Chile, Greece, Oman and Poland.

A total of 102 two-seat F-16Is will be delivered to Israel under two production contracts worth a combined $4.4 billion.
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw031117_1_n.shtml


Air force programs are dominated by the F-16C/D Block 60 Desert Falcon contract worth US$6.4 billion. The F-16 contract was signed in May 2000; deliveries of 55 F-16Cs and 25 F-16Ds are scheduled to start next year and run until 2007.
http://www.janes.com/regional_news/africa_middle_east/news/jidr/jidr030303_1.shtml


No offense intended.
:hug:
Thanks for the sources.
Still, it seems to me that in terms of dog-fight performance they are pretty close. With Israeli pilot in charge, theres no contest.

[He219]

I'll give you one destinct F16I advantage:

Off boresight missile shots.


Elbit and Kaiser Electronics are working together as Vision Systems International to produce the JSF advanced helmet mounted display.
Other than Israel and the United States, only Royal Danish Air Force F16s have started using the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) as part of the MLU M3 Lead-the-Fleet program.

Does the UAE F16 feature this cueing system?

:D

[Fox2]

I'll give you one destinct F16I advantage:

Off boresight missile shots.


Elbit and Kaiser Electronics are working togeteher as Vision Systems International to produce the JSF advanced helmet mounted display.


:D

Well, that is definitely an advantage. :D

In a knife fight, that'd give the F-16I the upper hand, especially with missiles that could handle it like the Python. Although it wouldn't change much beyond visual range.

[UoUo]

Anyone know the range between israel and UE ?

[He219]

Patriot Missiles have been notoriously effective BVR weapons on fighters of late...

:|

Interesting article:

UAE to receive F-16 jets more advanced than Israel's
Haaretz ^ | 12/11/2003 | Amnon Barzilai


Posted on 12/10/2003 8:25:32 PM PST by yonif


The United Arab Emirates' air force will receive a more updated version of the F-16 plane than that being supplied to the Israeli air force.

Israel has purchased the F-16I, while the UAE will receive the F-16 Block 60, which completed its first successful flight on Saturday.

In an official statement, Lockheed Martin, which manufactures the planes, described the F-16 Block 60 as the newest and most advanced of the series, which began production in the 1980s.

Lockheed Martin will provide the UAE with 80 such planes, which, together with their sophisticated equipment, will cost $8 billion. The first aircraft - designated the F-16E/F - will be delivered to the UAE in April 2004.

Dain *******, president of Lockheed Martin, said: "With the Block 60, we have introduced a whole new generation of capability that sets the current world standard for multirole fighters."

The plane's major innovations include structural, avionics and propulsion enhancements that make it practically an all-new version of the Fighting Falcon, according to the company's press statement. The last designation change, the F-16C/D, was introduced with the Block 25 version in 1984.

"First flight affirms our commitment to produce the world's most cutting-edge fighter, which cannot be rivaled in its combination of speed, technology and capability," said John Bean, Lockheed Martin's vice president for F-16 programs.

The F-16E/F resembles earlier F-16 aircraft in appearance only. Internally, the Block 60 has an all-new cockpit that features all-digital instruments and three 5x7-inch color displays. Its highlights are a revolutionary Electronic Warfare (EW) system, the new APG-80 Agile Beam Radar (ABR), and a new Integrated FLIR Targeting System (IFTS), provided by Northrop Grumman. This enables the aircraft to increase the scope of its search with greater precision.

According to an informed source, the radar system in the F-16E/F has a cutting edge over that in the planes due to be supplied to the Israeli air force. However, the United Arab Emirates are not defined as being hostile to Israel.

[Skaman]

http://www.modelrec.com/images/products/600/2202.jpg

This one I think is nice. Bf-109, or well actually Avia S-109 but what the hell. Still fun to see the star of David on it.

We all have our opinions but the P51D is the nicest WW2 aircraft by far

no way, fw 190 d

[DLodge]

I'll give you one destinct F16I advantage:

Off boresight missile shots.


Elbit and Kaiser Electronics are working together as Vision Systems International to produce the JSF advanced helmet mounted display.
Other than Israel and the United States, only Royal Danish Air Force F16s have started using the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) as part of the MLU M3 Lead-the-Fleet program.

Does the UAE F16 feature this cueing system?

:D

Yes, it should have it.

There is no doubt that the Block 60 is superior to the F-16I, but the whole argument is pointless because the UAE and Israel are acquiring their new F-16s for two completely different reasons. Israel is buying F-16Is to supplement their F-15Is in the long-range deep strike mission. The UAE is buying the Block 60 as an all-around fighter that will be the backbone of their air force for the forseeable future. Israel does not need to shell out extra money to buy a super-advanced Falcon that merely duplicates capabilities other jets already have.

Comparing the F-16I to the Block 60 is like comparing apples to oranges. They were designed with totally different purposes in mind.

[He219]

Good point, DLodge!

The politics behind arms sales to Israel, UAE and others is quite interesting nonetheless....


The UAE had threatened to pull out of the deal because the Americans refused to include the software codes for the aircrafts’ electronic systems that would give the emirates a tactical advantage over Israel. The UAE has also demanded the F-16s have ultra-long-range capability and highly advanced radar systems, capabilities considered to be superior to the US Air Force’s own F-16s.
http://www.iansa.org/oldsite/news/2002/Jan2002/israel_alarmed30102.htm

[UoUo]

I wanted to know something...let's say israel and usa devlpoed a new missile...or a new helmet...

USA can sell the missile/helmet to Egept if they want?

And i also heard that usa didn't allowed to sell F-15 to Egept...do you People know something about that?

[He219]

I wanted to know something...let's say israel and usa devlpoed a new missile...or a new helmet...?
They already are as VSI. DLodge is right. The UAE F16 has the Joint US/Israeli helmet weapons cuing system and provisions for the Python 4 and 5.


The standard configuration of an Advanced Block 50/52 cockpit features helmet-mounted cueing system, which allows the pilot to direct sensors or weapons to his line of sight or to help him find a designated target. Head-Up Display and several color multifunction displays and advanced recording and data-transfer equipment is used to reduce pilot workload in every phase of the mission.
http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-1-04/feature-advanced-f-16.htm

As for Egypt and missiles, the previous link I posted referenced the Harpoon Block II variant. I don't know about F-15's - but why not - especially with the F35 rapidly approaching for Israel.

http://www.defense-update.com/images/apg68V9.jpg

:D

[UoUo]

I wanted to know something...let's say israel and usa devlpoed a new missile...or a new helmet...?
They already are as VSI. DLodge is right. The UAE F16 has the Joint US/Israeli helmet weapons cuing system and provisions for the Python 4 and 5.



It's very very unfair....very unfair. :(

USA ask us not to sell the "palcon" to China and we agreed...

What is going on with the US? the living us for the arab oil?

[He219]

I wanted to know something...let's say israel and usa devlpoed a new missile...or a new helmet...?
They already are as VSI. DLodge is right. The UAE F16 has the Joint US/Israeli helmet weapons cuing system and provisions for the Python 4 and 5.



It's very very unfair....very unfair. :(

USA ask us not to sell the "palcon" to China and we agreed...

What is going on with the US? the living us for the arab oil?

:petting:

Hehe, UoUo - I don't have all the information. There is definately more to it than we are aware of.

I would imagine Israel would not have allowed the technology transfer if it undermined it's national security.

:)

[IDFM203]

First welcome back, I guess its to be expected now that whenever we get into a F-.<insert designation here> you’ll show up :D


]


There is no doubt that the Block 60 is superior to the F-16I, . I remember we had this conversation before.

Anyways like I said before “As for which is better, well yes what’s publicly known is that the American built F-16E/F is a bit better however there is a lot that’s unknown about the F-16I for a lot of it is not public knowledge. (a lot of the Israeli add on's are classified)

But besides, like I said before “Israel opted for the advanced F-16I instead of the UAE version that the U.S. built for them, simply to reinforce existing stocks (like the advanced F-15I), but the IAF’s real focus is on the F-35 which will also have some Israeli avionics and electronics in it"

In other words, its just paving the way for the F-35 (and their Israeli add ones ;) )

So in terms of air superiority or which is better, in Israel’s case (and of course the U.S. as well) we are past the arguments of the differing F-16 versions or the F-15 versions, for the future is not there but in the more advanced F-35 that will be the backbone of the IAF in the very near future.

Shalom :D

[UoUo]

And still...what will happend if the arab world one day will attack israel?

(we still kick thier ass :D ;) )

But still.....that not good...

[Ghostwolf]

It's very very unfair....very unfair. :(
USA ask us not to sell the "palcon" to China and we agreed...
What is going on with the US? the living us for the arab oil?

What does the Phalcon AEW system got to do with not having the Helmet
Mounted Sight? The Israel government ended up selling the Phalcon AEW
to the Indian Air Force, and the U.S. agreed with the Israel's decision.

The decision of not selling the Phalcon to China was right at the start,
because it will definitely tip the strategic balance in the eastern asia and
southern asia towards the communist China's side. Besides China wanted
to use Israel to obtain sensitive U.S. military technology, including missile
technology such as the Arrow 2 ATBM system, which was developed by
both the U.S. and Israel.

[UoUo]

It's very very unfair....very unfair. :(
USA ask us not to sell the "palcon" to China and we agreed...
What is going on with the US? the living us for the arab oil?

What does the Phalcon AEW system got to do with not having the Helmet
Mounted Sight? The Israel government ended up selling the Phalcon AEW
to the Indian Air Force, and the U.S. agreed with the Israel's decision.

The decision of not selling the Phalcon to China was right at the start,
because it will definitely tip the strategic balance in the eastern asia and
southern asia towards the communist China's side. Besides China wanted
to use Israel to obtain sensitive U.S. military technology, including missile
technology such as the Arrow 2 ATBM system, which was developed by
both the U.S. and Israel.


Exactly the same thing....
selling F-15 F-16 to countries like Egept and Suadi arbia will definitely tip the strategic balance in the midlle east....

And selling that helmet is exactly the same thing like selling the arrow to China...even worse..since the arrow is for deffence.

[mustamato]

I am beginning to feel there is more of a purpose behind your assumptions than pure fact versus fact. But of course, everyone I suppose is guilty of that. ;)

Well, IDFM203 seems to be quite confident in that the there is nothing superior to israeli advancements, just see his above post in example. That´s why I posted that first post about UAE´s F-16.

ahhh, when did I say that?? :roll: Gees this is how flame wars erupt (which seems like your itching for it to happen :roll: )…I ask, do not put false words in my mouth!!

In example, see your quote below:


Anyways like I said before “As for which is better, well yes what’s publicly known is that the American built F-16E/F is a bit better however there is a lot that’s unknown about the F-16I for a lot of it is not public knowledge. (a lot of the Israeli add on's are classified)...

Well, I guess that goes for the F-16U as well,.

[UoUo]

Stop mass with us (israelis) or i will stop buying in " IKEA".

:bash:

[IDFM203]

The decision of not selling the Phalcon to China was right at the start,
because it will definitely tip the strategic balance in the eastern asia and
southern asia towards the communist China's side. Besides China wanted
to use Israel to obtain sensitive U.S. military technology, including missile
technology such as the Arrow 2 ATBM system, which was developed by
both the U.S. and Israel. To the Americans here............

Listen I can fully appreciate the U.S. concerns about Israel’s deal to china and I fully understand its objection and prevention of Israel in doing it.

What bothered me a bit with that whole flare up is a couple of things,

First, didn’t the U.S. (or Clinton ;) ) sell military stuff to china?

I mean it seemed like at the time, Israel got a very bad rap in the U.S. when the U.S. themselves did the same thing!!

Also like the discussion here, I believe that while Israel is forced to be sensitive to the U.S. (and rightfully so, considering that both are allies and both SHOULD be sensitive to each others concerns), the U.S. doesn’t have the same curtsey to Israel’s sensitivities for they sell to Israel's enemies (and really the U.S.’s as well ;) ……but that’s a whole other discussion) their advanced weapons and technology and perhaps even some Israeli technology as well (though I am not sure about the latter, but from the posts here, its leading me to perhaps consider that :( …..which I had not before)


I’d be curious to hear some thoughts on this.

Shalom :D

[mustamato]

Stop mass with us (israelis) or i will stop buying in " IKEA".

:bash:

Not that I understand what I have to with IKEA. It´s not like I don´t drink Jaffa-soda just because some other individual has some other opinion.

And about the chinese and their in-service missile technology:

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/weapon.asp

[UoUo]

Stop mass with us (israelis) or i will stop buying in " IKEA".

:bash:

Not that I understand what I have to with IKEA. It´s not like I don´t drink Jaffa-soda just because some other individual has some other opinion.

And about the chinese and their in-service missile technology:

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/weapon.asp

"Humor" try to get some of that.

[Ghostwolf]

Exactly the same thing....
selling F-15 F-16 to countries like Egept and Suadi arbia will definitely tip the strategic balance in the midlle east....

And selling that helmet is exactly the same thing like selling the arrow to China...even worse..since the arrow is for deffence.

Well you cannot just treat every F-15s and F-16s the as the same,
there are differences. For example, the type of AESA radars, multi-
mission computers, and even the fire control softwares each country's
F-16 uses differs in some ways, so I do not think that will resulted
in the shifting of the current strategic state in the region.

U.S. only sells its arms to its friendly (or presumably friendly) nations.
Egypt, you said? I thought it signed a peace treaty with Israel a long time
ago, and it is getting along well with Israel? As for Saudi Arabia? I say it
is kind of on the neutral side, and with the U.S. paying great attention to
this country(I.E. war on terrorism), I do not think it will be bold enough to
use its armed forces against Israel. As for U.A.E. I am not so sure
because I don't have enough information regarding its role in the region.
BUT let me tell you one thing, U.A.E.'s new F-16 Block60 still does not
have enough combat range to fly to Israel and back, and U.A.E. does not
have refuel tanker aircrafts such as the KC-135R and KC-10A.

So I guess your worries are bit premature, but IF and I mean IF all of
the sudden the U.S. decided to sell its weapons to countries like Syria or
Lebanon, then something is definitely WRONG here......

[IDFM203]

I am beginning to feel there is more of a purpose behind your assumptions than pure fact versus fact. But of course, everyone I suppose is guilty of that. ;)

Well, IDFM203 seems to be quite confident in that the there is nothing superior to israeli advancements, just see his above post in example. That´s why I posted that first post about UAE´s F-16.

ahhh, when did I say that?? :roll: Gees this is how flame wars erupt (which seems like your itching for it to happen :roll: )…I ask, do not put false words in my mouth!!

In example, see your quote below:


Anyways like I said before “As for which is better, well yes what’s publicly known is that the American built F-16E/F is a bit better however there is a lot that’s unknown about the F-16I for a lot of it is not public knowledge. (a lot of the Israeli add on's are classified)...

Well, I guess that goes for the F-16U as well,. This is what you call grasping for straws :roll:

You made a false accusation and yet you’re now persisting in word plays to try to hide the fact that you lied about something that I never said.

You accused me of being “quite confident in that there is nothing superior to israeli advancements”

And the fact is that I never said that at all!!

Now from what’s publicly known, the F-16E/F is superior, in fact I did say before that "it is a bit better" but again we don’t know everything about the F-16I…meaning that most probably the F-16E/F is superior but its not a complete 100% certainty (though I admit its likly from whats known) being that we don’t have all the information about the f-16I.

That is all that I have been saying and that in no ways mean that I am ““quite confident in that there is nothing superior to Israeli advancements”


However, what I am quite confident about is that “there is nothing better then Israeli advancements coupled with an Israeli pilot", Ill stand by that statement.



What’s starting to get really old and tired is your flaming rhetoric and tone and you constant attempts to bait me or other Israeli’s into a flame war in this thread (or in others), when this thread without your posts is actually a very constructive conversation.

Listen I am fully capable of engaging in a pathetic flame war as it seems that your itching for, but I prefer not to and am trying not to in a effort to respect the other members here that are in fact engaging in a constructive and informative discussion on military matters which is what this forum was set up to do.

I ask that you refrain form hijacking this thread any further with posts or comments that are outside of what the discussion of this thread is about so that this thread wont lead into a flame war.

Shalom :D

[mustamato]

@ IDFM203

Wordplay or not, I simply say; Block 60, and F-16I is not one of them.

And can you explain why IAF pilots should be better than those from UAE? It´s not like the 25 year old or so Israeli fighter pilots have all that much experience in facing modern fighter jets in real combat. I guess you didn´t know this, but jews are not superior to arabs so please don´t use that argument.

[UkrainianAmerican]

@ IDFM203

Wordplay or not, I simply say; Block 60, and F-16I is not one of them.

And can you explain why IAF pilots should be better than those from UAE? It´s not like the 25 year old or so Israeli fighter pilots have all that much experience in facing modern fighter jets in real combat. I guess you didn´t know this, but jews are not superior to arabs so please don´t use that argument.
Um, they practice against each other, meaning they sort of know how to engage similar jets.

[mustamato]

Um, they practice against each other, meaning they sort of know how to engage similar jets.

Ok. I assume that the arabs have not figured out that yet :cantbeli:

[UkrainianAmerican]

Um, they practice against each other, meaning they sort of know how to engage similar jets.

Ok. I assume that the arabs have not figured out that yet :cantbeli:
Based on their track record, it doesn't exactly seem that way...

[mustamato]

Um, they practice against each other, meaning they sort of know how to engage similar jets.

Ok. I assume that the arabs have not figured out that yet :cantbeli:
Based on their track record, it doesn't exactly seem that way...

I guess a 25-year old Israeli fighter pilot don´t have all that impressive kill list either. I mean shooting down fighter planes now, not the bombings of palestinian refugee camps and police stations and what not.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Um, they practice against each other, meaning they sort of know how to engage similar jets.

Ok. I assume that the arabs have not figured out that yet :cantbeli:
Based on their track record, it doesn't exactly seem that way...

I guess a 25-year old Israeli fighter pilot don´t have all that impressive kill list either. I mean shooting down fighter planes now, not the bombings of palestinian refugee camps and police stations and what not.
As far as I know, when they prractice they actually lock-on each other so, thats good enough.

[mustamato]

As far as I know, when they prractice they actually lock-on each other so, thats good enough.

And the UAE pilots don´t?

[IDFM203]

@ IDFM203

Wordplay or not, I simply say; Block 60, and F-16I is not one of them. . well you didn’t simply say that before, for if you did we wouldn’t have the problems that we had before….oh well :roll:

Anywas as for your point now, well yeah I know that and I never said otherwise, I mean If you do a search in this forum, you’ll see that me and Dlodge had a whole discussion about both planes so I am aware of both of them.



And can you explain why IAF pilots should be better than those from UAE? because I think that IAF pilots are the best-trained and the most skilled pilots as a whole in the world!! :D

I base that on a number of factors.

(1) The IAF has the best modern post ww2 combat air-to-air success ratio for the amount of air-to-air engagements that they have faced then anyone else in the world.

(2) In joint exercises in mock battles, the IAF has dominated U.S. and germen and British air force’s (though I can’t confirm the British excersise for I read it somewhere but I cant remember where so I am not certian about that one)

(3) The IAF selection process is one of the most selective in the world and the drop out rate is one of the highest in the world (around 90 percent or higher), meaning only the very best of the best make it.

(4) The IAF is in constant combat or real combat training and its combat readiness is almost unparalleled. To add here, the amount of flight hour’s a individual IAF pilot has in training is one of the highest amounts anywhere in the world.

Those four points combined lead me to the conclusion I made.

I want to stress one note. I am not saying that every single Israeli pilot can beat every single American, British German, or anyone else for I am sure that there are individual pilots of those countries that can beat some individual Israeli pilots, but as a whole in terms of percentages, I believe that the IAF fields the highest percentage of skilled and trained fighter pilots in the world.


And can you explain why IAF pilots should be better than those from UAE? It´s not like the 25 year old or so Israeli fighter pilots have all that much experience in facing modern fighter jets in real combat..

Well first because the IAF has been highly successful (understatement!!) in the past fifty years through tons and tons of air to air engagements when ever they have faced off against an Arab air force and that is not a racist comment but rather just a fact!!!

Secondly, I highly doubt they get the same amount of training hours in the air as IAF pilots get or that they have the same unique training tactics that the IAF has learnt over the years through extensive combat, or that they have the same highly selective process or the same high intensive training against other quality air forces or that it has the same high intensive training that has the IAF having the biggest drop out rate, which is a process that truly weeds out those that are not the best of the best.

Basically all these factors (and the four points above) and the UAE's lack of combat experience leads me to conclude what I did.


But hell if you believe that the UAE has pilots on the same skill level as the IAF or even the USAF or the British air force, well that’s fine but I don’t see how other then your mere belife, can you back up that insinuation.


And I guess you didn´t know this, but jews are not superior to arabs so please don´t use that argument. geez no need to get this dramatic here :roll:

This isn’t a race thing and your attampts to make into one are rather ill fated and quite lame :roll:

Lets stick to facts and sane arguments and not on emotions or baiting as you cant seem to stop yourself from doing…..oh well :roll:



Listen, I believe that IAF pilots as a whole are superior (and not becouse of any genetics or race but through the four points that I listed above) to anyone in the world!!

Hell I would make the same case against your Swedish pilots who I believe the IAF would desimate, if they were ever to face off against each other ;) :D

Shalom :D

[UkrainianAmerican]

Musta Busta sure is a persistent f*ck.

[mustamato]

IDFM203. Well, your jewish and dogmatic way of putting all those veeery convincing arguments for me, which all has in common that Israel is superior no matter... well. No matter what I say you will still think that the chosen ones are superior. Despite that the UAE pilots of today wasn´t even born when egyptian and whatever pilots faced IAF pilots back in the days. Todays IAF pilots was of course not even born them either but that does obviously not matter much. Etc etc.

[UkrainianAmerican]

IDFM203. Well, your jewish and dogmatic way of putting all those veeery convincing arguments for me, which all has in common that Israel is superior no matter... well. No matter what I say you will still think that the chosen ones are superior. Despite that the UAE pilots of today wasn´t even born when egyptian and whatever pilots faced IAF pilots back in the days. Todays IAF pilots was of course not even born them either but that does obviously not matter much. Etc etc.
Antisemetic piece of ****.

[mustamato]

Antisemetic piece of ****.

Methinks RussianAmerican getting a hardon.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Antisemetic piece of ****.

Methinks RussianAmerican getting a hardon.
Did your mom tell you that?

[mustamato]

Antisemetic piece of ****.

Methinks RussianAmerican getting a hardon.
Did your mom tell you that?

I think it was yours actually

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7814

(PM if your want to continue).

[UkrainianAmerican]

Antisemetic piece of ****.

Methinks RussianAmerican getting a hardon.
Did your mom tell you that?

I think it was yours actually

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7814

(PM if your want to continue).
So you cant come up with a lame joke without copying me?
figures...

[IDFM203]

IDFM203. Well, your jewish and dogmatic way of putting all those veeery convincing arguments for me, which all has in common that Israel is superior no matter... . well its not “no matter” for I made a consructive argument and if you will make one in response that are based on facts and not just spew your emotional rhetoric which has hidden bigotry all over it, well then my mind can change for I am always flexible to change my mind if facts and sane intellectual arguments are presented, though none of which I have seen come from you yet :roll:


well. No matter what I say you will still think that the chosen ones are superior. . ahh the old and tired “chosen one” remark :roll: (quite funny actually ;) )

Yeah if you actually read what I wrote instead of foaming with your prejudice against Jews which is quite obvious (not that I really care) you’ll see that I didn’t merely claim that IAF pilots are superior and left it at that, but rather I made a strong case based on facts and sane intellectual arguments.

Hey you outta try that for a change ;)



Despite that the UAE pilots of today wasn´t even born when egyptian and whatever pilots faced IAF pilots back in the days. Todays IAF pilots was of course not even born them either but that does obviously not matter much. Etc etc. yes but what does that have to do with the IAF superior training tactics (that were passed down from those combat experiences) to the IAF having more intensive training and more training hours or to the IAF having a higher drop out rate which leads to the IAF weeding out those that are not the very best of the best to the IAF in joint training two years ago and a half a year ago(not years ago) demolishing the USAF and the German air forces in joint training exercises in mock battles.

My arguments were not merely on past combat experience (which is a factor indeed even though you falsely try to discount it) but were on a lot lot more.


But of course you have nothing to counter it so instead you resort to spewing the garbage that you have spewed here….pretty typical already from you.

Shalom :D

[One?]

you're all racists. Now stfu :hug:


{this was an attempt to make peace}

[UoUo]

mustamato

You wrong again....pilots from 82 war can still serve in the IDF.

So stfu.

BTW : stop buying from us arms !!!!

How can you? we are bloody murders...

[AirZone]

IDFM203. Well, your jewish and dogmatic way of putting all those veeery convincing arguments for me, which all has in common that Israel is superior no matter... . well its not “no matter” for I made a consructive argument and if you will make one in response that are based on facts and not just spew your emotional rhetoric which has hidden bigotry all over it, well then my mind can change for I am always flexible to change my mind if facts and sane intellectual arguments are presented, though none of which I have seen come from you yet :roll:


well. No matter what I say you will still think that the chosen ones are superior. . ahh the old and tired “chosen one” remark :roll: (quite funny actually ;) )

Yeah if you actually read what I wrote instead of foaming with your prejudice against Jews which is quite obvious (not that I really care) you’ll see that I didn’t merely claim that IAF pilots are superior and left it at that, but rather I made a strong case based on facts and sane intellectual arguments.

Hey you outta try that for a change ;)



Despite that the UAE pilots of today wasn´t even born when egyptian and whatever pilots faced IAF pilots back in the days. Todays IAF pilots was of course not even born them either but that does obviously not matter much. Etc etc. yes but what does that have to do with the IAF superior training tactics (that were passed down from those combat experiences) to the IAF having more intensive training and more training hours or to the IAF having a higher drop out rate which leads to the IAF weeding out those that are not the very best of the best to the IAF in joint training two years ago and a half a year ago(not years ago) demolishing the USAF and the German air forces in joint training exercises in mock battles.

My arguments were not merely on past combat experience (which is a factor indeed even though you falsely try to discount it) but were on a lot lot more.


But of course you have nothing to counter it so instead you resort to spewing the garbage that you have spewed here….pretty typical already from you.

Shalom :D

sup idf :hug:

leave him.. you PWNED him hard so he answered in a childish way..

pwend woot

[Wacko]

What your point ? that the F-15 F-14 F-16 are better from the mirage? Sure they are.

Yes! And it is nice to talk to you!

I am just spilling a little venom on the French.
NO, F-15 ain't better then Mirage IIIC, but F-16 might be better..
The US Airforce sux. The US got only one modern fighter - F-22.
Fighters like Su, Eurofighter, Gripen or maybe Rafael would crush the F-16 or F-18 in air-to-air combat.

[Adri]

F-16= a very good multi role fighter, good turn rate and the same weapon loadout makes it better than the F-15, but the F-15 can go higher and longer so that is why it is an air superiorety fighter.

Mirage 2000-5= one of the best close/turn fighters in the world, 9G's and it's light weight makes it an hell good fighter in turn fights.

F-22= it gott stealth, speed,hight and weapons, a true 5 gen. fighter.
14,365kg and 9G makes it also a very very good turn fighter.

F-35= if the F-22 is the "mordern" F-15 then this is the mordern F-16, just so you know, lockheed have moved a lot of their "produsers" (?) over to the F-35 from the F-22 cause the F-35 will bring them more money than then F-22, so the F-22 can be seen on as a test plane for the F-35...I don't

many people here doesn't think that russian planes a any good, thats wrong.
the SU-27 have a larger weapon range than the F-15 and better turn rate, the Russian ECM called "Sorbtsiya" can be placed on each wing tipp and do then almost gives it a 360 degreds cover, it is an plane wich to fear and with bouth ecm's on you can't get a lock within ca 15-20km, but stealth planes have a major + there, no lock within 2-7km...that is if you are not using the russian "Nebo-U" radar, wich (atleast they say so) can detect stealth.


info about the F-22's weapons and copit: http://www.f-22raptor.com/af_weapons.php

[gilgoul]

[/quote]

How does it feel that the UAE F-16 is more advanced than F-16I despite all those israeli advancements?

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/events/oct_00/images/oct00_events17.jpg
UAE´s.[/quote]


The UAE has a lot of money to put on their material, let them have fun, they still need the pilots to go with the plane, and unless doing like saudi arabia, wich hires "specialist" former military personnels from the US and Uk, we can rest easily, having high tech toys is a thing , you still need people to man them rofl

[UkrainianAmerican]

How does it feel that the UAE F-16 is more advanced than F-16I despite all those israeli advancements?

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/events/oct_00/images/oct00_events17.jpg
UAE´s.[/quote]


The UAE has a lot of money to put on their material, let them have fun, they still need the pilots to go with the plane, and unless doing like saudi arabia, wich hires "specialist" former military personnels from the US and Uk, we can rest easily, having high tech toys is a thing , you still need people to man them rofl[/quote]
Hell, you can rest easily regardless. Its not like UAE is actually going to participate in some military operation, they got better things to do (like pumping oil)

[DLodge]

Well this thread certainly took some turns for the worse...

Just curious, does anybody actually know how many hours Israeli pilots get? And also remember that they don't usually (some are invited) get the benefit of large-scale exercises such as Red Flag. Regardless, the IAF certainly provides top-level training and, in that respect, is clearly at the same level (perhaps even a little above) the U.S., the UK and others.

As far as the UAE, well, I know that senior UAE/AF officers have visited the USAF Academy as well as the Italian Air Academy and several others. And since the UAE is awash in money I'd imagine that students get plenty of flight time. Who knows?

[UoUo]

I still think that a shame that USA sell the arabs things that we devolepd With them.

And also in the M1A1 that USA sold to Eget they inclueds an israel system Called "artishok".

[UkrainianAmerican]

I still think that a shame that USA sell the arabs things that we devolepd With them.

And also in the M1A1 that USA sold to Eget they inclueds an israel system Called "artishok".
I would assume that since U.S. did that, it was most likely due to the fact that they bought a license to do whatever they want. I dont think anything illegal was done here. If Israel didnt want it in the arms of arabs, it could have not sold the license.

[UoUo]

I still think that a shame that USA sell the arabs things that we devolepd With them.

And also in the M1A1 that USA sold to Eget they inclueds an israel system Called "artishok".
I would assume that since U.S. did that, it was most likely due to the fact that they bought a license to do whatever they want. I dont think anything illegal was done here. If Israel didnt want it in the arms of arabs, it could have not sold the license.

I didn't sayed that illegal...i just sayed that it isn't ok....since we and USA Are ally...hm...USA our only friend...why do they sell things like that to The arab world that hate us?

Egept is a undemocratic nation....mubark isn't crazy man...but what will Happen if 1 day someone will shoot him?

[DLodge]

I still think that a shame that USA sell the arabs things that we devolepd With them.

And also in the M1A1 that USA sold to Eget they inclueds an israel system Called "artishok".

That's not hypocritical...

From the Federation of American Scientists:

Arms to China

Israel's independent policy on its own arms exports has been a source of tension with the United States for the past decade. Israel has a long-standing history of defense cooperation with China, and is currently, and controversially, the PRC's second largest arms supplier.

An initial public accusation against Israel came in 1992, with a State Department Inspector General's report on the potential re-transfer of U.S. military equipment and technology without U.S. permission. In 1992, the State Department Inspector General found that

reports of significant alleged violations of the AECA and ITAR [International Traffic in Arms Regulations] retransfer restriction by a major recipient of U.S. weapons and technology [Israel] had not been properly acted upon by PM [State Department Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs], which is responsible for initiating the reports of violation and ensuring compliance with U.S. laws and regulations governing arms exports. The violations include sales of sensitive U.S. items and technology to countries prohibited by U.S. law from receiving such items. The violations cited and supported by reliable intelligence information show a systematic and growing pattern of unauthorized transfers by the recipient dating back to about 1983. Despite receiving recurring evidence of violations over the past few years, and only after OIG [Office of the Inspector General] involvement, PM has recently taken action to curtail the unauthorized transfers (p.17).

A focus of concern surrounded allegations that Israel incorporated U.S. technology into its own weapons and then exported those weapons without the approval of the U.S. government. Senator Byrd said in a 1 April 1992 floor speech that "the kinds of products we are talking about are such things as the Israeli versions of the United States-made AIM-9L Sidewinder air-to-air missile [Python 3] and TOW-2 anti-tank missile [MAPATS] (Congressional Record, 1 April 1992, p. S4602)." U.S. intelligence says that Israel's Python 3 air-to-air missile has a "high degree"of U.S. technology (Wall Street Journal, 9 April 1992). Israel said the U.S. government approved the export of MAPATS in 1986. In one case a license was denied and the U.S. components were replaced (Jane's Defence Weekly, 28 March 1992, p. 504). In the case of the Python 3, Israel claims that the version in Israeli service use U.S. components while those that are exported do not. The manufacturer, Rafael, declined State Department requests to identify "non-U.S. sources of supply" claiming it involves proprietary business information. As a result, all pending Python 3 retransfer applications were "returned without action" from the State Department. (Wall Street Journal , 9 April 1992)

At the same time the inspector general's report came out, the State Department said a separate investigation found "no evidence that Israel had transferred a Patriot missile or Patriot missile technology" to China, as had been rumored. (New York Times , 3 April 1992, p. A1)

Matters recently came to a head during a stand-off over a sale of radar to China. Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) agreed in 1999 to sell China a Phalcon airborne early warning and intelligence system for $250 million. The sophisticated radar would enable Chinese aircraft to view up to sixty aerial targets in all directions over a radius of up to 250 miles. Israel had signed a contract and accepted a deposit from China. Though Israel insists that the Phalcon does not contain U.S. technology, . U.S. officials say the system is closely related to the [American] AWACS, or airborne warning and control system. ('Israel-China Radar Deal Opposed', Washington Post , April 7, 2000).

The Phalcon radar had significant potential to assist China vis-à-vis its bitter cross-strait rival, Taiwan. Richard Aboulafia, an aircraft analyst with the Washington, DC Teal Group explained that . . A couple of AWACS can make a greater difference in the scheme of things . than anything else.[& ] The purchase of these planes could tip the scales in Beijing' s favor in the cross-strait balance . if they deploy [the Phalcon] correctly and use it correctly. . (quoted in Defense Week , 4-10-2000). The United States, of course, is committed to providing the defense of Taiwan. In spring 2000, the U.S. had denied Taiwan. s request for a AWACS.

The sale had been in the works since 1996 and proceeded smoothly until fall 1999, when reports surfaced that the Pentagon objected to the sale of such sophisticated technology to China. Israeli officials at first refused consider the American request to cancel the sale. It took more than half a year of intense pressure, including . unofficial sanctions. and threats to further withhold certain types of U.S. technology, before Israel was forced to abandon the sale (Jerusalem Post, Feb. 24, 2000, . US Plans to Punish Israel for China Sales,. by Janine Zacharia). The administration refused to go as far as some members of Congress, who suggested that Israel. s military aid should be cut if the Phalcon was delivered.

From the Israeli perspective, the U.S. pressure was unwarranted interference in a legitimate sale. A senior Israeli defense official hinted to the Israeli press that U.S. responses were "motivated by other than purely defense considerations, and [were] influenced by [...] desire to help U.S. defense industries competing with Israeli industries," and complained that "the U.S. demand is in violation of all the rules of the business world." ("Requiring Prior U.S. Approval for Israel Arms Sales to 27 Countries Will Wipe Out Defense Exports," Globes, June 15, 2000). The reference to . rules of the business world. is telling; it is precisely because most arms sales, American and Israeli, are conducted primarily as business transactions that stopping a sale for strategic reasons is so difficult.

While the Phalcon sale seems to have been prevented, it was not an isolated incident. According to the findings of the Cox Committee. s congressional report, Israel has "offered significant technology cooperation to the PRC, especially in aircraft and missile development," including helping China build its current F-10 fighter jet. The Chinese F-10 is virtually identical to the discontinued Israeli Lavi fighter, an aircraft designed using $1.5 billion in American aid. . The Lavi program, funded by the United States, was intended to provide Israel with its first domestically built fighter jet. Based largely on the F-16, the Lavi design incorporated an advanced canard-delta wing. The Chinese F-10 reportedly has the same configuration and can compete in the same class as the Eurofighter 2000. (Defense Week, 4-10-2000). Taiwan will likely ultimately demand the U.S. F-22, a next-generation fighter still under development, to counter the Chinese F-10.

Less serious violations of the AECA have also been documented that demonstrate how closely U.S. technology and Israeli arms manufacturing are intertwined. For instance, in April 1998, Israel informed the United States after the fact of a transfer of the fuselage of a crashed F-16 jet to a private Israeli firm, Elbit, for use in other weapons testing (letter from U.S. Department of State to Congress, January 7, 1999). Compliance with the AECA would have demanded that Israel get U.S. consent ahead of time.

The 'Dotan' Scandal

Another past difficulty in military relations between Israel and the United States involves the "Dotan affair," in which Israeli citizens and military officers diverted as much as $70 million in U.S. Foreign Military Financing funds (Washington Post, 27 October 1993, p. A14). Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and National Airmotive Corporation directed subcontract work to companies that were fronts for Israeli Air Force General Rami Dotan and others.

While the Israelis have insisted that this was a rogue operation, Congressman John Dingell, Chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee investigating the affairs, said at a July 1992 hearing that "it is not clear how General Dotan was laundering tens of millions of dollars of U.S. funds and making this scarce currency available for unauthorized purposes on various military bases without top [Israeli] Ministry of Defense officials questioning where the money was coming from."

It is not known what the diverted funds were used for since U.S. investigators have had limited access to relevant records or individuals outside the United States. Chairman Dingell said at an October 1993 hearing that this problem "emphasizes the need for cooperation from those receiving foreign military assistance (Arms Sales Monitor No. 23, p. 8).

U.S. Military Aid

Israel has traditionally received $1.8 billion dollars worth of Foreign Military Financing (FMF) every year. In FY 2000, Congress also appropriated $949 million of . Economic Security Funds.. Israel is one of the wealthiest countries to receive economic aid, absorbing over one third of total global ESF funds. ESF aid to Israel is being gradually phased out, to be replaced by more FMF; in FY 2001 foreign military financing for Israel is expected to approach $1.98 billion.

Israel is so secure in the inevitability of large quantities of U.S. military aid that it has arranged for cushy private financing for some arms sales secured by expected future earnings of U.S. aid (. Israel to Buy F-16s With Private Loans: Pentagon to Facilitate Deferred Payment Option Between Lockheed Martin, Israel,. Barbara Opall-Rome, Defense News, August 2, 1999). Israel also benefits from the Excess Defense Articles program; following the Gulf War, the Army gave Israel surplus Apache attack helicopters, Blackhawk transport helicopters, Multiple Launch Rocket Systems, and Patriot tactical anti-missiles.

The Wye River agreement that Israel signed with Jordan brought with it $1.2 billion more dollars worth of military aid. The cumulative effect of all U.S. aid programs significantly impact Israeli defense expenditures: according to the State Department. s 1998 Annual Report on Military Expenditures, . new U.S. assistance to Israel for its long-term defense modernization program, as well as aid expected under the Wye Agreement, means that overall defense spending will not decrease but in fact will rise over the next 8-10 years..

Unique among FMF recipients, Israel is allowed to use up to 27% of U.S. funds on its own indigenous arms production, and is currently pushing to keep even more aid within Israeli industry. The United States agreed to waive the usual requirements about Israel spends U.S. aid money for the Wye River aid package, letting Israel spend the aid on indigenous arms, a precedent likely to continue in future peace deals (. U.S. Agrees to Allow Israel to Spend More Aid at Home,. Defense News, Barbara Opall-Rome, no date).

American dollars and technology also pours into the Israeli arms industry via offsets, incentives that American weapons manufacturers offer to convince Israel to sign deals, including co-production of weapons, transfers of technology, and non-military related investment. Israel enjoyed record high levels of offsets in 1999, and of defense-related offset purchases 90% came from the United States. Lockheed Martin, for instance, promised to spend $900 million in Israel to secure a $2.5 billion F-16 sale; other offsets included a $750 million counter-trade investment from Boeing for the sale of F-15I fighters and Black Hawk helicopters. In fact, Israeli law says that all companies selling to Israel must commit to investing 35 % of contract value into the local economy. Israel even demands offsets on FMF-financed arms sales, a practice for which America pays twice, by taxpayers and the economy at large (a practice which the U.S. Commerce Dept. recommends prohibiting).

Arms will be the price of any future peace deals: when an agreement with Syria was under discussion, Israel floated a $17 billion wish list. Sami Haijjar, director of Middle East studies at the U.S. Army War College, warned that if these software codes, cruise missiles, advanced surveillance systems, and smart bombs were provided to Israel in exchange for a deal with Syria, . You trigger an arms race unwittingly. You cannot expect to arm to the teeth one nation in the region and expect all others to accept it willingly.. (in . Israel. s Request for $17 Billion in U.S. Weapons Stirs Concern,. Christopher Marquis for Knight Ridder, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, February 8, 2000).

Arms Exports

The Israeli defense-industrial complex that the United States helps to underwrite is becoming one of the world. s most competitive arms exporters. Israel will export an estimated $2 billion in weaponry in 2000; the 48 entities who receive Israeli arms or defense cooperation include Cambodia, Colombia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, the South Lebanon Army (an Israeli-backed militia), and Russia (. Tel Aviv Flexes Military, Commercial Muscles,. Barbara Opall-Rome, Defense News, January 17, 2000). [b]According to a Tel Aviv University study, India, China, Burma, and Zambia are as Israeli customers despite the fact that the U.S. either embargoes or severely restricts its own arms sales to those countries. The UN reportedly had to ask Israel to stop supplying warring countries Ethiopia and Eritrea with arms, including an air surveillance system to Ethiopian Air Force and two boats to the Eritrean Navy (. UN to Israel: Stop Supplying Arms to Ethiopia,. Yosi Melman, Tel Aviv Ha. aretz, May 19, 2000).

Given many years of military aid and defense industrial cooperation, the United States bears some responsibility for the effects of all Israeli arms sales, not just for retransfers of weapons which contain U.S. equipment. As a Pentagon official said to the New York Times, "given the amount of weaponry that the United States shared with Israel, it was difficult to separate American military technology from Israel's own." (. U.S. Seeks to Curb Israeli Arms Sales to China,. November 11, 1999).

Granted the above article is a little slanted, but I don't think anybody will deny that Israel has a history of questionable arms exports. Plenty of unbiased evidence can be found to support that statement, just look in The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal.

[UoUo]

I don't get it...how can you comapre selling system to china...that has no War with USA...and the comlecty depend on them...

Between selling systems to the arab world...that hate israel...and wish to Destroy us.

BTW : like i said before...when USA asked us not to sell the "palchon" to China...we agreed.

[REMOV]

Between selling systems to the arab world...that hate israel...and wish to Destroy us.Sometimes I think the best help send to Israel from US Foreign Military Fund should be a 6 000 000 pieces of Dale Carnegie's book How To Win Friends and Influence People ;)

[Javehn]

Between selling systems to the arab world...that hate israel...and wish to Destroy us.Sometimes I think the best help send to Israel from US Foreign Military Fund should be a 6 000 000 pieces of Dale Carnegie's book How To Win Friends and Influence People ;)

Ha , perhaps it's funny , but i don't remember that chapter in all of Cornegies books : "How to meet with Brainwashed killers , and stay a live" . I did tryed to engage in coversations with Pali boys , most of them were total disaster (a little correction : all of them ) ... So i think you offering the book to the wrong peoples .

[DLodge]

I don't get it...how can you comapre selling system to china...that has no War with USA...and the comlecty depend on them...

Between selling systems to the arab world...that hate israel...and wish to Destroy us.

BTW : like i said before...when USA asked us not to sell the "palchon" to China...we agreed.

Israel is China's second largest arms supplier.
China has been identified by the Defense Department, several Congressional Committees and countless experts as America's biggest future threat.

You do the math.

[IDFM203]

Granted the above article is a little slanted, but I don't think anybody will deny that Israel has a history of questionable arms exports. Believe me its not any worse nor is it even close than what and who the U.S. Has sold arms to over the years!!

Anyway’s back to china.

I had a post about it in this thread but I think it got lost in all that back and forth with mustamato but I think its very relevant to what your talking about.


Here is a repost,


To the Americans here............

Listen I can fully appreciate the U.S. concerns about Israel’s deal to china and I fully understand its objection and prevention of Israel in doing it.

What bothered me a bit with that whole flare up is a couple of things,

First, didn’t the U.S. (or Clinton ;) ) sell military stuff to china?

I mean it seemed like at the time, Israel got a very bad rap in the U.S. when the U.S. themselves did the same thing!!

Also like the discussion here, I believe that while Israel is forced to be sensitive to the U.S. (and rightfully so, considering that both are allies and both SHOULD be sensitive to each others concerns), the U.S. doesn’t have the same curtsey to Israel’s sensitivities for they sell to Israel's enemies (and really the U.S.’s as well ;) ……but that’s a whole other discussion) their advanced weapons and technology and perhaps even some Israeli technology as well (though I am not sure about the latter, but from the posts here, its leading me to perhaps consider that :( …..Which I had not before)


To sum up, the U.S. concerns over sales to china and Israel’s subsequent adherence to that request of Israel to not continue in those sales, which Israel complied!!, was not matched with the U.S. adhering to the real concerns that Israel has had with regards to the U.S. sales of high tech military equipments (and perhaps even some of Israeli technology in them) to some of Israel’s enemies or even to some of their enemies that are not officially that, but nonetheless it’s a clear underlying fact that they are.


Shalom :D

[franck66]

Black Rain,

Before bashing french Mirage because you don't like french, use a good source.

First

- Syrian air force never use the Mirage, in this area only Israel used Mirage III with a good success versus their ennemies

- You're Right, an Mirage 2000 was shut down over Pale few years ago, but not a Mirage 2000K, it was a Mirage 2000N K2. The crew is OK, liberate 2 month after the crash by the serbian army

second,

ok One mirage 2000 shoot over pale, but it seems you forgot the 'great' F-117 shutdown over Kosovo and also the US F-16 shutdown over kosovo ( I 'm sure you know the name of the US pilot of this F-16 ).


Ok Black Rain you don't like the french people but please be honnest before bashing our planes

[BlackRain]

Black Rain,

Before bashing french Mirage because you don't like french, use a good source.

- You're Right, an Mirage 2000 was shut down over Pale few years ago, but not a Mirage 2000K, it was a Mirage 2000N K2. The crew is OK, liberate 2 month after the crash by the serbian army

second,

ok One mirage 2000 shoot over pale, but it seems you forgot the 'great' F-117 shutdown over Kosovo and also the US F-16 shutdown over kosovo ( I 'm sure you know the name of the US pilot of this F-16 ).


Dear Friend,

Since you brought it up, let us examine the history of these two shoot downs.

The official NATO website lists the French Mirage as a Mirage 2000k. You might wanted to check the facts again here: http://www.afsouth.nato.int/factsheets/DeliberateForceFactSheet.htm as I had footnoted them in an earlier post.

You are correct the USA sustained two losses of a F-16 and F-117. They were not lost due to air-to-air combat but from surface-to-air missles.


On a cloudy night, the Yugoslav air defense unit knocked a F-117A Nighthawk from the sky. A month later, the same unit shot down a U.S. Air Force F-16. (1)

How Did the Yugo's Shoot Down the Jets?

Well there are three theories.


One raises the pall of espionage, while another attributes the downing to just plain luck. The last theory, which Cook views as most plausible, has the Yugoslavs using multiple radar systems to paint a faint, but decent enough profile for a skilled anti-aircraft crew to work with. (1)

Espionage?


A French spy in Nato provided the Serbs with top-secret details of allied bombing raids against Yugoslavia last year, including targets to be hit and precise flight paths, according to high-level US sources. (2)

What about that F-117 loss?


It was reported last year that the US F117A Stealth fighter shot down by a Serb anti-aircraft missile in the first week of the bombing campaign may have been attacked after its secret flight plan was passed to Belgrade by a spy at Nato headquarters. (2)


A French army major has been found guilty of handing military secrets to the Serbs shortly before the Kosovo conflict.

Pierre-Henri Bunel, 49, was jailed for two years, with a further three years suspended.

He was immediately taken to the Sante prison in Paris.

A special military court in Paris heard that he revealed details of Nato's bombing plans just before its military campaign got under way in Kosovo.

Bunel, who was attached to Nato in Brussels at the time, admitted passing on information, but denied the treason charges, saying he was acting under the orders of French intelligence services.

I committed a serious mistake but I do not have the feeling that it was treason," he said after the verdict.

Bunel had claimed he was told to convince the Serbs that the threat of Nato bombardment was real, unless they withdrew their troops from Kosovo.

He had received a phone call via "a line that could only have been a military line", he said, telling him he should convince Jovan Milanovic, a Serbian agent based in Brussels, that Nato was serious.

"I want to show that I am not a traitor. I want to do this for my honour, for my family, which has suffered a lot as a result of this affair, and also for my fellow soldiers, who do not understand how I could have committed treason," he said in comments broadcast on French radio before the verdict.

Nato strains

The potential Nato targets allegedly identified by Mr Bunel were, in the event, not hit as the alliance postponed the threatened strikes.

Other alliance members, however, have blamed Serbian sympathies within the French military for hampering Nato's campaign in the Balkans.

Prosecutors had asked for a five-year term for Bunel.

"You wanted to be a hero but you were a traitor. You must assume the consequences," state prosecutor Janine Stern told the tribunal.

"You betrayed your comrades, you betrayed your allies, you betrayed France." (3)

Surely, There was only One French Spy, Right?

Wrong! Consider the case of French Col. Herve Gormillon.


The slightly-built French NATO officer, a regular fixture at NATO's daily press conferences at Sarajevo's Holiday Inn in the months following the end of the Bosnian war, turned out to be the perfect spy -- until he got caught passing NATO's arrest plans to top Bosnian Serb war crimes suspect Radovan Karadzic, the man many hold responsible for the worst crimes of the Bosnian war.

Gormillon had apparently been meeting secretly with Karadzic, in his stronghold of Pale, for months, passing secrets.

Gormillon's treachery forced NATO to scrap their arrest plans. Already fearing casualties, NATO commanders killed the plan once they realized Gormillon had destroyed their chief advantage against the heavily-guarded Karadzic: The element of surprise.

NATO Commander General Wesley Clark said "he would never trust the French again" after the Gormillon incident, according to one former NATO official who asked not to be named.(4)


Footnotes for Disbelievers:
1) http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/01/jun01/ed060301h.html
2) http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,193537,00.html
3) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1706341.stm
4) http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/12/21/balkans/?CP=YAH&DN=110

[franck66]

Black

another time found good sources !!


Dear Friend,

Since you brought it up, let us examine the history of these two shoot downs.

The official NATO website lists the French Mirage as a Mirage 2000k. You might wanted to check the facts again here: http://www.afsouth.nato.int/factsheets/DeliberateForceFactSheet.htm as I had footnoted them in an earlier post.

Mirage 2000K never exist, the 2000 loose over Pale was an Mirage 2000N-K2. In fact this version of Mirage 2000is now called Mirage 2000D

here two photos (of my swebsite) of the Mirage 2000D over afghanistan last year. same scadron of the Mirage 2000D shutdown over Pale

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photop/0103/000332.jpg (http://pegase.foxalpha.com/picture.php?Aircraft=80&id=332&size=m) http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photop/0103/000333.jpg (http://pegase.foxalpha.com/picture.php?Aircraft=80&id=333&size=m)





You are correct the USA sustained two losses of a F-16 and F-117. They were not lost due to air-to-air combat but from surface-to-air missles.


another time you make a mistake, the serbian shotdown the Mirage 2000D with a Sam 7.


At 1716, EBRO 33, a French Mirage 2000K was shot down by a man-portable surface-to-air missile, 20 NM SE of Pale; two good chutes were observed; efforts to locate and rescue the downed aircrew continued around the clock, supported by a wide variety of NATO and National assets, for the duration of DELIBERATE FORCE


found on your link. exept if the serbian could fly alone in the air, i'm sure it was not an Air to Air combat :lol:

[BlackRain]

On 30 August 1995 a French Mirage 2000K was shot down by a man-portable surface-to-air missile, 20 NM SE of Pale. Efforts to locate and rescue the downed French aircrew continued until 28 Sep 95 when French authorities informed CINCSOUTH of their conviction that the French aircrew had been "recovered alive and taken into custody by the Bosnian Serbs." (1)

If you want to debate the facts of this case with NATO, go ahead.

You do know that a SAM -7 is a surface-to-air missle right? I was talking about the two USA jets not the French jet if you read my post correctly.


The SA-7 GRAIL (Strela-2) man-portable, shoulder-fired, low-altitude SAM system is similar to the US Army REDEYE, with a high explsive warhead and passive infrared homing guidance. The HN-5 ( Hong Nu = Red Cherry ) is an improved Chinese version with upgraded capabilities. The SA-7 was the first generation of Soviet man portable surface-to-air missiles. Although classed as "fire and forget" types, the missiles were easily overcome by solar heat and, when used in hilly terrain, by heat from the ground.


1) http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/deliberate_force.htm
2) http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm

[franck66]

If you want to debate the facts of this case with NATO, go ahead.


Nato is Nato but they can't invent a release of Mirage 2000. If you want I can give you the list of all existing version of the Mirage 2000


You do know that a SAM -7 is a surface-to-air missle right? I was talking about the two USA jets not the French jet if you read my post correctly.


ok so the 3 planes were shutdown by the same way.

If you want an example if an US planes shutdown by an air to air missile, i could give you the example of th F-18 shutdown by a Mig 25 over Irak in 1991

and please d'ont use the ****ing gromillon to give an explanation of the 2 US aircraft loose over kosovo. It's an ofense to the intelligence of all the participants of this NG. Or i could also speak about Aldrich Ames.

[Sergio]

A French spy in Nato provided the Serbs with top-secret details of allied bombing raids against Yugoslavia last year, including targets to be hit and precise flight paths, according to high-level US sources. (2)

Are you serious ?
Have you the slightest idea about how the bombing lists are realized ? Do you know that the activation of these missions was made on daily bases with less than 12 hours to complete them ? Do you know that the precise flight path cannot be known by anyone else than the pilot himself because he made his own mission path. The only points that he has to respect was the refueling tracks and the target, that's all.

They were shot down for reasons linked with imediate action, that's all. You don't seem to have a clue about how fight is like...

[BlackRain]

Are you saying there is no such thing as Mirage 2000k?

You might want to tell that to the pilots that fly them. Here are more footnoted references that back this up fact.

French Aircraft TO & E - detailing the 2000k



OPERATION DENY FLIGHT UPDATE
France: -
5 x Mirage F-1CR reconnaissance aircraft at Istrana AB, Italy. -
6 x Mirage 2000C fighter aircraft (NFZ) (plus 3 on recall) at Cervia AB, Italy. -
4 x Mirage 2000K/D ground attack aircraft (CAS) (plus 3 on recall) at Cervia AB. -
6 x Super Etendard fighter bombers (CAS) on the aircraft carrier when in the Adriatic -
3 x F-1CT (CAS) on call at Istrana AB. -
1 x C-135 air-to-air refuelling aircraft at Istres, France. - 1 x E-3F AEW at Avord. (1)

AND


For example, in August/September 1995, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) aircraft (primarily American) dropped 1,026 bombs on 338 Bosnian Serb targets.3 Only one aircraft was lost (a French Mirage 2000K), and collateral damage was insignificant. (2)

AND


France Loses a Fighter

One French Mirage 2000K was shot down near Pale, brought down by a shoulder-fired SAM. It was the only aircraft lost in the operation. Numerous attempts to rescue the two French aircrew members proved unsuccessful, but they were eventually repatriated by the Serbs who had captured them. (3)

In America, we have the freedom of the press and speech.

Why should I be silenced by you for bringing up the fact about two French spies that put NATO forces at risk?

The French army major spy Pierre-Henri Bunel gave the enemy detailed air tasking orders regarding our bombing campaign with precise air flight information which aided the Serbs targeting our planes. At his trial he stated he was ordered to spy by the French intelligence service.



Footnotes
(1) http://www.hri.org/docs/inter/95-10-20.doc.html
(2) http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/barnett.html
(3) http://www.afa.org/magazine/Oct1997/1097deli.asp

[BlackRain]

Are you serious ?
Have you the slightest idea about how the bombing lists are realized ? Do you know that the activation of these missions was made on daily bases with less than 12 hours to complete them ? Do you know that the precise flight path cannot be known by anyone else than the pilot himself because he made his own mission path. The only points that he has to respect was the refueling tracks and the target, that's all.

They were shot down for reasons linked with imediate action, that's all. You don't seem to have a clue about how fight is like...

Serio or who ever you are at the moment,

Before the F-177 flight, mission data is downloaded on to the IBM AP-102 mission control computer, GEC-Marconi flight control computer/Navigation Interface and Autopilot Computer (NIAC) system; SLI Avionic Systems Corporation expanded data transfer system and AHRS. Harris Corporation digital moving map added as retrofit with full-colour MFDS, which integrates it with the navigation and flight controls to provide a fully automated flight management system.

The flight path information uploaded into the F-117 was compromised.

[franck66]

In America, we have the freedom of the press and speech.

try to have freedom to find good information source .... syrian air force use Mirage isn't it ?

and try to find Mirage 2000K information. but it's not important if you want this release exist beleive that.

[Sergio]

Blac Raine or whoever you are...

Fabulous, you seem able to read correctly without mispelling some avionics brands, but what is your point ? I'm talking about intelligence procedures, not technical data.

[Kaos]

Hello all!
Sorry, because I'm French, but not exactly a spy, so the info I will provide might not be very accurate??? And above all they're in French, but I'm sure that it will not be a problem for U.
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/index.html
But what a fool I am! This info does not come from an American source. Will you trust me???

[Kaos]

Just a little precision:
k2 was an interim mark of the 2000N, before the arrival of the 2000D.
p-)

[Kaos]

Another one:
"A former Turkish general on Monday said Ankara should ask for compensation for an unprecedented incident in which Greece shot down a Turkish fighter aircraft over the Aegean Sea in 1996.
The Turkish newspaper Milliyet said former general Ahmet Corekci, who was Turkish air force chief at the time of the incident, confirmed press reports about the clash to the paper.
A Turkish airforce F-16 was lost over the Aegean Sea during a training mission in October 1996 in what Ankara said was international airspace north of the Greek island of Samos, close to Turkish mainland.

One of the pilots managed to eject after the plane was hit by a missile but his co-pilot, Captain Nail Erdogan, was killed. "


But I agree, althought I've heard about this news in 1996, I don't know if it has been verified.
Apart the pilot's loss, quite funny, no???
;)

[franck66]

not exactly k2 but like a said before 2000N k2 and not 2000K ;)

now the mirage 2000N k2 is called the Mirage 2000D

for your informtion Black Rain the 2000D is the Air to ground version of the Mirage 2000C & Mirage 2000-5


In America, we have the freedom of the press and speech.


really, very good news. You know wath, it's the same thing here, incredible isn't it ??

for your information we have also electricity and phone but just since few month. My last dream is to have a color tv on my house ;)

[Wild Angel]

I am just spilling a little venom on the French

Why?

Are you serious?

The French are fair weather allies to the USA. The average American really did not have a negative opinion of France until war on terrorism.

Perhaps, it is because France is no longer France. The French Ministry of Interior and one of France's leading demographers at the National Institute for the Study of Demographics estimates that up to 25 % of males below the age of 16 years are of Arab ethnic origin.


According to Lucienne Bui-Trong, the officer in charge of the Towns and Suburbs Department at the Renseignements generaux (general intelligence) of the French police, no less than one thousand Muslim neighborhoods are under monitoring throughout France, which means that the National Police keeps more personnel there to prevent public disorder. Violence and crime are rampant in those areas. Seven hundred Muslim neighborhoods are listed as "violent"; four hundred are listed as "very violent," meaning not just that organized crime and firearms are present but that residents have a systematic strategy to keep the police out. The Ile-de-France has 226 violent neighborhoods, Provence-C"te d'Azur has 89, Rh"ne-Alpes 62, and Rh"ne-Pas-de-Calais 61.15.

The French politicians probably decided to pacify these Islamic folks by attacking President Bush and undermining American proposals in the U.N.

Sorry, I didn't read the 6 pages of topic, but this post made me yell.
Do you really think that because 25 percent under of our population under 16 years old is from Algéria or any other arabian country, we have to stay quiet because we are affraid by their possible reacts?

People from arabian origines feel french above all. They live in France, they speak french, their fiends are french, from France, Africa, Asia...
You forgot saying one thing: 98.5% of french people were against war, 1% without mind on the question and 0.5% for the war.

We were abble, with a diplomatic coaltition, to eject Saddam Hussein, and with your military action, you put the world against you.
I don't juge by the political positions, but by the public opinion all over the world.

And I precise one thing that americans seem don't understand: We are not against the americans, we are against the decisions of your president.
Most of the american soldiers were killed after the end of the war...you are really the liberators.

But I won't try to open your narrow spirit, I don't want to lost my time.

For people interrrested by performances of the Mirage, there's a good address here:

http://www.checksix-forums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=30574&st=0

I hope you will excuse my language mistakes.
Friendly, Wild Angel.

PS: I precise that I'm not against the people of the countries which declared the war, but against their political administration.

[Javehn]

Just for sake of interest , even if it is very off-topic : Your said your government could eject Saddam without war . What way that can be ? If you don't want to polute any more of this thread, you can open perhaps a new thread , and discust about it , i am honestly interested .

[franck66]

Javehn

interesting thing, BlackRain could write anything about french planes or politic but we can't answer

could you explain why, i' am honestly interested

or may be we are on a specific french bashing forum ?

[Wild Angel]

We could eject SA by the diplomatic way because with all the resolututions of the UN, he may have to hide things, and so we could declare the war by the UN, with the countries of the UN, and irakishes would be better with all nations troups instead of American, Pole and English army.

And if he didn't hide any thing, the Iraki government would have fallen by itself.

[Kaos]

I think he mean at least all the governments of the countries from the 1990 coalition.
He said We, European and American and others.
;)

[franck66]

And if someone is bashing you without a reason , ignore him then

I try simply without any hungry to explain why Black Rain made some mistake.

[Wild Angel]

Exactly, thanks. ;)

[Javehn]

Perhaps you mean , the Arab coalition members ? That will make more sence , but they would never agree , and as far as i remember , Bush indeed tryed to form wide coalition in begining .

[Wild Angel]

for your informtion Black Rain the 2000D is the Air to ground version of the Mirage 2000C & Mirage 2000-5


Mirage 2000D is the Air to ground version of the Mirage 2000C.
The atg version of the Mirage 2000-5 is the 2000-9.(a 2000-5 with a-g ground capabilities)

[Wild Angel]

Perhaps you mean , the Arab coalition members ? That will make more sence , but they would never agree , and as far as i remember , Bush indeed tryed to form wide coalition in begining .

I'm not as sure as you, SA didn't have many friends all over the arab countries since he attacked the Koweït.

[He219]

We could eject SA by the diplomatic way because with all the resolututions of the UN, he may have to hide things, and so we could declare the war by the UN, with the countries of the UN, and irakishes would be better with all nations troups instead of American, Pole and English army.

And if he didn't hide any thing, the Iraki government would have fallen by itself.

So if France (and others besides the Iraq coalition) would participate in a war against Saddam, that would make it ok? You really believe a broader coalition would have mitigated insurgents and terrorists from attacking those forces and Iraqi civilians from reconstruction and stabilization?

I though it was primarily France (Russia being the only other UNSC Veto power) that undermined the threat of force against Saddam to comply with UN resolutions to verify it's disarmament....

[BlackRain]

Sorry, I didn't read the 6 pages of topic, but this post made me yell.
Do you really think that because 25 percent under of our population under 16 years old is from Algéria or any other arabian country, we have to stay quiet because we are affraid by their possible reacts?

People from arabian origines feel french above all.

Wild Angel,

You made some interesting points. However, the press reports regarding France country paint a different picture.



France's angry young Muslims

Unhappy with their lack of integration into French society, "they try to identify themselves with another world" such as the global Muslim community, says Mr. Roger from
link: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0417/p06s01-woeu.html


Muslims remaking old France

Demography has transformed the country, whose population is about 7 percent Arab and Muslim, the highest percentage in Western Europe. The figures are more striking in Marseille, where about 10 percent is Arab and about 17 percent Muslim....

Complicating its troublesome place in society is that much of the Arab-Muslim community in France feels not only alienated from mainstream France but also split within itself - by ethnicity, history, religiosity, politics and class...

"I don't feel French, I have never felt French," said Jamila Laaliou, a 24-year-old woman who works at the Marche du Soleil, a covered food market by the mosque. "Here I feel safe, because everyone is Arab. But the France outside is a France of racism, and the racism has gotten worse since Sept. 11."

link: http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:RX_9-lloATcJ:rasa.iht.com/articles/92727.html+muslim+crime+france&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Javehn]

I'm not as sure as you, SA didn't have many friends all over the arab countries since he attacked the Koweït.

Well , the fact that Bush did tryed at begining to form coalition , that will be consist of Arab members . None of them agreed , and perhaps if France would join the coalition , some Arab nation would change the minds . The problem with that conflict , as i see it , is not on the war stage itself , it was planned and executed perfectly . The problem is after, no one really planned what will happend when the major war is over , and that hit back on U.S. No one really thought in depth what void will became in the country , and i think that at list in after war reconstruction of Iraq france can take part . That can bring some Arab countries over there , and make it much easier situation to control . That sounds sence , more or less ?

[franck66]

Black Rain,

to be clear, here the list of the Mirage 2000 used by the French Air Force :

Mirage 2000-B : Training

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photop/0203/000483.jpg (http://pegase.foxalpha.com/picture.php?Aircraft=124&id=483&size=l)

Mirage 2000C : Air to Air defense

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photop/0203/000480.jpg (http://pegase.foxalpha.com/picture.php?Aircraft=24&id=480&size=l)

Mirage 2000D (called Mirage 2000N k2 b4) : Air to ground

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photop/0203/000868.jpg (http://pegase.foxalpha.com/picture.php?Aircraft=80&id=868&size=l)

Mirage 2000N : Nuclear vector

Same release of the Mirage 2000D but with nuclear capacity

Mirage 2000-5F : Air to Air multi target capacity

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photop/0203/000477.jpg (http://pegase.foxalpha.com/picture.php?Aircraft=98&id=477&size=l)

as you can see no Mirage 2000K. we can think thas on your source they made a confusion on the previous nome of the Mirage 2000D (Mirage 2000N k2)

If you want discuss about Mirage 2000, it will be a pleasure for me

if you're fan of F-16 (like me) here all my photos and also some friends photos of this aircraft :

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/search.php?Family=6

Franck

[Wild Angel]

The arabians were the first who wanted to see SA in jail or dead.
But they were also the first against the war.

[Wild Angel]

A book, wrote by an american, an old director of the CIA, about the USA and Arabia that I found very interesting: Blak Gold and White House, by Robert Baer.

The title is the translation from the french, I'm not sure it's the english one.

I won't be abble to reply over 1 week.
I hope that this topic will continue without violence.

Good night (for the Europeans of course! ;) )

[Kaos]

Black rain, it's true that we have some immigration problems, we can't disagree with that. But like every western European country, and...like the United States of America. Funny that all your links come from a country which is thousands miles away from us. Same here, I can find many links in French about America's own problems, immigration and others. But as I live in Europe, I don't know if I can trust them. Better for me to look at US links for that, I think they knew the prob better.
U should (But do as U like) try to get French links to know about our probs. But...maybe French language is not your "tasse de thé"???
:roll:

[Kaos]

Anyway, MolliG, thx for the photoshots and for the links.
:D

[BlackRain]

A book, wrote by an american, an old director of the CIA, about the USA and Arabia that I found very interesting: Blak Gold and White House, by Robert Baer.


Thanks for the book recommendation. Here are some I recommend to you:

"France in Collapse" by Nicolas Baverez
"French Arrogance" by Emmanuel Saint-Martin,
"France in Disarray" by Alain Duhamel
"Farewell to a Disappearing France" by Jean-Marie Rouart.

[Kaos]

Some good books indeed. It seems to me that each county all over the world share the same kind of problems. So don't worry about ours, and try to focus on yours. It would have been easy for us to ask you about some things concerning your gouvernment so called lies (In your own country)before the war, so there's no point in continuing this argument. It seems strange to me that a man with a certain level of knowledge of things like you, think the way you think.
At last, I hope that you've learned something about our Mirages.
But in fact, I don't have much hope.

[Kaos]

Anyway, don't hesitate to come in the forum with the link posted above, sure that you'll find here some Swiss, Belgians and Frenchs that have ten time the knowledge that you've about some American planes. And they can even discuss in English, if it's a problem for U. And you know what? it could be extremly good for your own Mirage knowledge!!!
And at last (Sorry :roll: ), those four books...Did you really read them??? or did you find the titles on amazon???
Et comme on dit chez moi:
Aller...Au revoir!!!
:hug:

[BlackRain]

...

[Kaos]

My two grand father were "invalided" (not sure of the translation in english) during ww1, with one dying soon after in 1921. But I've no links with the ones in my relatives from a couple of centuries ago that certainly fought with Lafayette, sorry. I've great respect for American soldiers that fought for us in the past, and my heart bleed each time I heard that 1 of your GI has been killed in Irak, because I'm a soldier myself. But I'm not a fool, and if your country fought in those 2 WW with us, it was for your interest, and it was the same for us at the time of Lafayette. And ww1 and 2 are only a small part of our long history. So, we can get away with it, and I don't feel like owing something to America. Certainly not.
thx anyway for your effort in French.

[Wild Angel]

So now the explications have been done, I wish that we erase everything and we continue the discuss without first mind, but with a built argue.
I won't hide it, I'm speaking to Black Rain (and the others) , with who, I recognise and apologise for it, I was a little bit violent in my first post (so little :roll: ).

And while we are in the topic, my grandfather was general commander of the medicinal corp of the French army during the Indochine war, Algeria war and he helped US soldiers during Viêt-Nam.

[Wild Angel]

Désolé si mon Français n'est pas très bon. C'a été un long temps depuis l'école.

I don't think that my English is better :roll:

[Jose Le Baron]

Stop mass with us (israelis) or i will stop buying in " IKEA".

:bash:

Yes. And what does a tiny country like Israel produces so sucessfuly that it can mantain such a military?

So that I can clear all doubts at the start, let me tell you I support Israel's existence as a state. I even have some remote Jewish blood. But then again I do believe it is high-time for the Israelis to clean up their house so that the rest of the world does not have to support you directly (US arms and grants) or indirectly (putting up with the crazy Arabs radicals).

If I could I would export all the Arab radicals AND Jewish radicals to the Moon, and would explain very slowly to the rest left in the area that no, God did NOT gave them that land, land possession in our species is determined by history and status quo at the signing of treaties.

So, could you guys please show the light (or the stick) to those loony settlers?

In what concerns the US and China. They are strategic competiors. The US has a right to not have technologies that were developed mostly with US money being exported to China. If Israel dislikes that very much, then it should also deslike the humbrela and aid it gets from the West.

[franck66]

Black,

Really thanks a lot for all US people came in france during hte first and second world war. all the french think the same thing. We have lot of 'reconnaissance' (i' m not sure it's good in english) for that. same thing for the UK, Belgium, polish, austalian, new zealand and all the countries which help us to win these war.

but sorry Black there are not links between all these heros and your actual gouvernement. we are not your slave and we are free to think different.

I hope you could understand that

Thanks to your grand father and is brother

but now may be we could speak about Mirage or other planes........

[Fox2]

So is the Rafael set to replace the Mirage? Or will they be working together?

[Puppetmaster]

Sorry Fox 2 but it's not " Rafael" but "RAFALE"

Rafale is the french word for squall

"Rafael" is the Israeli armament development authority

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/

;)

and yes the Rafale is set to replace the Mirage 2000 and the other aircrafts currently flying in the French Air Force.
but as the delivry of the Rafale is scheduled on the next 20 years
you'll see Rafale and mirage 2000 working together.

[franck66]

Fox2,

First the Rafale will replace the Jaguar and Mirage F-1 in some squadron of the french air force and work with all other Mirage 2000 squadron. in the future it will replace also the mirage 2000 Squadron

Rafale replace also the Super Etendard in the French fleet air arm. 12 Rafale fly today in one of the french fleet air arm squadron

[Fox2]

Sorry Fox 2 but it's not " Rafael" but "RAFALE"

Rafale is the french word for squall

"Rafael" is the Israeli armament development authority

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/

;)

Uh........Would you accept the excuse that it was a typo? Yeah, that's the ticket. A typo.

Ok, ok, you got me. :P

I always wondered why it was ****ounced "Roff Al" and not "Roff Aiel" with that "Rafael" spelling.... :oops:

[Wild Angel]

You have a very good site concerning l'armée de l'air here: http://kovy.free.fr/

[Uninen]

This is kinda related so:

http://www.airpower.at/news02/0410_falklands/fearless-lowflight.jpg
FAAs Grupo 6s Daggers and HMS Fearless.

http://www.airpower.at/news02/0410_falklands/sancarlos.jpg
Mirage / Dagger attacking in San Carlos.

http://www.airpower.at/news02/0410_falklands/sancarlos_21may.jpg
More delta wings.. so Mirage / Dagger.

http://www.airpower.at/news02/0410_falklands/brilliant-attack.jpg
HMS Brilliant from Daggers guncamera.

All most likely Ex-Israeli..

:lol:

Related video:

Two Mirages take off from an Argentine airbase (http://met.open.ac.uk/group/cpv/fi/movies/mirage.MOV)
(FAA did buy many of its Mirage 3s also from Israel..)

p-)

[Kaos]

Daggers are not exactly Mirage III, and if they're not exactly Mirage V too, at last they've been build nearly the same.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/nesher.htm
The only type of Mirage III which fought in the Falkland conflict was the Mirage IIIEA, with one loss in the first day of air fighting, 1st may 1982.
;)

[Kaos]

I must add that Argentina bough some ex israeli Mirage IIIC after the war to replace Dagger losses.
;)

[Uninen]

FAA bought Ex-Israeli Mirage 3s even before the War, and more after to replace Mirage and Dagger loses..

;)

[Kaos]

They were Nesher, not exactly Mirages III, and not exactly Mirages V. just ...Neshers!!! build nearly the same as the V, from old III
Ok, ex-Mirage will do!
:D

[Uninen]

FAA Mirages,
Type / Number:
IIIBJ 3
IIICJ 19
IIIDA 4
IIIEA 17
5P 10
Dagger A 39
Dagger B 4
(Daggers are ex-Neshers, IIICJs and IIIBJs ex-IDF/AF Mirage IIIs..)

;) :bash: ;)

[Kaos]

CJ and BJ are not Neshers, they're Mirage III, I agree, and they were delivered just after the war, not before.
What I mean is that those delivered before the war (1978?) were the Dagger, ex-Neshers.
The III EA and III DA too; delivered before the war, in 1973, and the 5P, from Peru, during the war.
Have a look here (http://www.geocities.com/aeromilitaria_ar/index_i.htm)

[Uninen]

I have read on numerous books that some IDF/AF Mirages were delivered before the war and rest after..

Neshers were for sure.. (Daggers / Fingers..) But im also talking about Mirage 3 CJs/BJs..

Btw..

Only one of those (Israeli Mirage 3s..) seem to remain..

Rest scrapped for spare parts?

:|

[Kaos]

It seems to me that this is because people think that MirageIII/MirageV/Nesher/Dagger are all the same aircraft, and the fact is they're not the same. I've seen this kind of errors in different books in French too. I've even read some combat report where they talk about Mirage, when dagger from Grupo VI were engaged.
The Mirage IIICJ/BJ bought in 1983 were already old aircraft at this time.
Their destiny is not sure, but they're out of service.
If you read
French (and spanish) (http://www.chez.com/mirage3/argent.html)

[Kaos]

Anyway, sure that this one's (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6534~ser=ACE) for you!
;)

[Kaos]

Interresting thing, Mirage IIICJ N°159, with 13 MiG kills, was among those sold to FAA, but sadly lost during a training flight.

[Uninen]

Interresting thing, Mirage IIICJ N°159, with 13 MiG kills, was among those sold to FAA, but sadly lost during a training flight.

I tought that Israelis kept their highest 'killing' Mirage for their selfs..

I actually do have pics of that.. taken in Israeli aircraft museum..

p-)

[Kaos]

I can't be sure of my latest info.
Great if u can post the pics. I'm not sure about the numbers of Israeli Mirages MiG killers with more than ten kills. Maybe two???
An option can be that the Mirage you've seen as been repainted?
Hope to have some news from you tomorrow!!
:)

[Kaos]

maybe this one (http://www.chez.com/mirage3/images/remot.jpg)?

[Kaos]

Maybe another answer
here (http://arqueologiaaeronautica2.hypermart.net/Listados/Listado%20de%20aeronaves%20Mirage%20IIICJ.htm)
I can't read Spanish, but it seems that one airframe has been returned at the end of it's ops life to Israel, to be exposed in a museum because it was a top MiG killer.

[Kaos]

http://home.att.net/~david.pride/Aviation/IAF_38.htm

[Uninen]

:D

This..
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/israel/pics/101-2.jpg
" 13 kill markings on the nose of Mirage IIICJ '159' "
(it is still today in Israeli aircraft museum.. or at least was returned to one..)

;)

In April 1962 the squadron began to re-equip with the Mach 2 capable Mirage IIICJ after receiving pilot training in France. 101 squadron Mirages originally featured two-digit serials, before falling into line with the other two Mirage squadrons which always carried three digit serials. During the build up in tensions prior to the start of the Six Day War, the squadrons Mirages scored 7 kills in air combat without loss. At the start of the Six Day War, 101 sqn led strikes on airfields at Bir Gafgafa, Cairo West and Bir Tmade in the first wave and Cairo West, Cairo International, Helwan, Bilbeis and El Minaya in the second wave. From the second day of the war, the Mirages were mainly used for air superiority missions, 101 sqn claiming some 17 kills for the loss of three aircraft. The War of Attrition, 1967 to 1973, also saw regular clashes between Mirages and Syrian and Egyptian jets. 101 sqn aircraft were temporarily deployed to bases in the Sinai in order to improve reaction times, and steadily increased their score of MiGs.

:roll:

With the supply of Mirage 5J's from France embargoed, IAI-built Nesher copies began to supplement the Mirage III's in the early 1970's. Both types saw action in the Yom Kippur war of 1973, where the far greater intensity of air combat resulted in 101 sqn claiming about 48 kills for four losses.

:roll:

(101 Tayeset "Hakrav Ha'Rishona" - First Fighter Squadron) (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/israel/sqns/101sqn.htm)

;)

[Uninen]

Btw,

I find it odd that Israel actually sold anything to Argentina..

As so many Nazis wanted in Israel and internationally went on to live their lifes happily ever after in that nation..

:cantbeli:

[Kaos]

Bizness is bizness...