SAS troops leave for more $$ (see locked for all caps)

[obd]

Well, just read that other persons link that was locked by admin for using all caps. Its kinda funny but it matches what I have been saying all along. The SAS have largely stood on the sidelines in this war on terror (Im not saying totally, but as compared to Americans) and US Special Forces units are quickly becoming the best funded, best trained, and most combat experienced SF in the world by far. If you look at the shear numbers of American SF deployed in the war on terror as well as some of the missions that have come to light it is obvious to anyone out there that US spec-ops are now, by far and away, the pre-eminent SF of the world (besides those who are so ultra nationalist that they refuse to believe anyone but thier own spec ops are the best and most experienced of course). I would argue that the only SF with maybe more combat experience would be the Israeli SF although they havnt had expericne in the high intensity hgih technology type operations like Gulf War 1 and GulfWar 2 where vast territory has to be taken in any recent times. The Israeli's experience in recent times has been low intensity counter insugency type stuff for the most part. Also, it has been rumored that, while maybe not working together directly, US and Israeli SF units are cooperating to some degree on running ops in Syria (at least sharing of intel). It is a known fact that US spec ops are all over the place in Syria trying to stem the flow of weapons, cash, and men and also let Syria know we are serious about thier not undermining our efforts in Iraq. Anayway, back to the SAS: Its really sad to watch a unit with such great history like the SAS being destroyed by bungled management. Lets face it, everybody knows SF units like the SAS need to retain the best and brightest to retrain the next crop of soldiers and when they lose that, its all over. Spec ops untis cant lose thier best men and then simply hit the restart button and continue to be as good as they were. The death of even 10 men in a small unit is a disaster. For dozens to simply leave for better work is an absolute catastrophe. In my opinion, we are seeing the death of the SAS as a premier and highly capable SF untit. sad indeed.

[Argyll]

Hey OBD the SAS have been fighting terrorism for a much longer time than the US ever has,they certainly have not been sitting by during the war on terror,get your facts right before posting such ****e!
The SAS along with the SBS were in Afghanistan at the same time as the US SOF,they are also there in Iraq at present.

EDIT
Considering the UKSF number less than 1000,and that almost 80% of them have been conducting Anti terror,Insurgency,HVA,Intel mission,where'as the on the other hand the US SOF have 10 times that number,show's the vast difference in resources,I'd also like to point out to you that the SAS are not the equivalent of the SF,but that of the CAG.You have no idea what you're talking about in some of the stuff you posted,your claims about the US being the most active are also wrong,unless you're in a position to be able to make these claims then I'd suggest you don't!

[Falco]

Anyways, does the US SF have the same problem?

[ShotOver]

Yeah, what utter tripe.
You must be talking out of the wrong hole son, you have no evidence to back that up, and your claims are utter ****e. You are the typical "My country is better than yours" person, and it sickens me to read your post, and to think someone would make such shocking, un-backed up statements as you have posted.

You are a fool, that needs to get his facts right, and start to respect these men who fight.

Have you forgotten all the other SF that have been in the War against terror (Please excuse me if i do not list all the countrys, i am very tired) Australia, Canada, Spanish, Italian, German, Swedish, New Zealand.. etc.

Get your head out of your arse, and think twice before posting such utter ****e.

[Argyll]

I'm pretty sure it has but the difference here is that the SAS are a Regiment,not a larger scale unit like the US SF,when you lose even 5 experienced men in a regiment it's hard to replace,such is the calibre and the experience that goes with them.
If the SAS were the same size as the US Special Forces,then the impact would not be noticed so much either!
AFAIK there are also only 2 selections run per year,with a less than 20% pass rate,so if 300 men apply less than 60 will get through Selection,then there's continuation training where candidates can still get RTU's if they fail to meet the standards.It is recruiting that needs to be bolstered

[obd]

Look Argyll, I'm aware the SAS has a long history of fighting terrorism but thats just what Im saying: Its all in the past. Yes the SAS are in afghanistan and iraq right now but the SAS are a much smaller unit than comparable US units. The United States has seen far more wars/battles in the last 50 years than Britain. Haite, Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Columbia, Iraq1, Afghanistan, Iraq 2 and the Global War on Terror and countless other "resques", "evacs", etc. The simpe fact is that a small unit like the SAS, whether it has a long history or not, cannot survive and maintain its skills with so many members leaving. I mean hell, its not like they are dying, they are leaving for money. SF has never been about money in America, it has been about national pride and a challenge. Im sure thats the same in England so in my opinion there must be something else goign on. Anyway, no "history" can save a units proficiency if it looses too many good men. Its almost like a society's oral traditions. If all the old wise men die off, thier secrets may die off with them at least for a time. All that experience builds upon itself Argyll and it cannot simply be replaced by new raw recruits. The SAS is in a catastrophic state at the moment and your pride may not permit you to admit it but its gonna be years before they recover and can actually fulfill the needs of the nation properly. Hell, they already are calling up reserves. The fact is this: England simply does not have the resources to keep a properly trained and LARGE ENOUGH SF presence that can keep pace with the United States. I mean, how many are leaving, 64 men?!!? Sorry mate but its game over for the SAS for awhile at least. Not to say thier are no good men left in it but jeez, those 64 arnt gonna be the last. More and more are gonna follow as the SAS leaving are gonna be calling up thier buddies going "hey mate, Im making 60,000 over here and its great fun, why dont you come join my, I can grease the wheels for you. Already, some arnt being allowed to leave. How do you think those men who feel they are being kept in against thier will are gonna perform on the battlefields and with regard to maintanance of skills and imparting knowledge to others? Not nearly as well one who is there by choice mind you!! You can say what you like, but I read the reports from the beggining of the SAS lagging behind in funding and retention of personel which was hurting thier quality. I love the SAS and have read alot about them so I hope that somebody figures out how to retain more men and keep the SAS a viable and usable force instead of just the paper tiger it is becoming.

[Argyll]

THe SAS recruit from All countries in Britain,that's Scotland, England Ireland and Wales!
Besides,I've just spoken to my bud who's in the know and that story is wrong!and is totally innacurate!
The SAS has seen MORE wars son than the US SOF have ,and are likely to see,yo have not done any research into this at all have you,I'd suggest you go and have a look.
Calling up reserves is also pretty common,it's been done for years not just lately!

Also the 64 men as you put who are leaving,if you read,they are being seconded to the SBS.......another Special Forces unit!
What reports did you read re the funding of the SAS?I'm pretty sure NON of us are aware of the UKSF budget!

[ShotOver]

Argyll, don't worry about it mate.

If he wants to flood the forum with "America; Greatest country in the world" tripe let him.

His information is wrong, and since it is mixed with his attitude, all your going to get is ****e from his posts about SF.

Have a good one mate.

[obd]

I disagree with you that the SAS are the equivalent of the CAG (or delta for those that dont know what CAG means). The CAG in the US are almost exclusively a "high speed" direct action group. They are very different from the Green Berets who do counter insurgency and guerilla warfare. The SAS also do what the green berets do. So, in my humble opinion, the SAS as a whole are comparable to both but more similar to the Green Berets. The Green Berets are essentially a guerilla warfare, counter insurgency unit capable of direct action like missions as well. The SAS have a variety of regiments which specialize and cross train eachother a bit and essentially do what the Green Berets do as a whole but probably have more skills in direct action than the Green Berets. In short, the SAS are a jack of all trades master of none type in my mind. For example, there have been many cases of the D-boys getting the go ahead for "juicy" terrorist take-down ops over both the Green Berets and the SAS!! This info comes from interviews of an American Green Beret A-team leader that just returned from A-stan. (just the info on Delta getting all the good ops over everybody else)

[cut]

obd, what makes you think you know more about the British armed forces than Argyll who served with them? And I find it funny that you suggest that everyone other than you, and no doubt your fellow patriots, are hyper-patirotic.

[marktigger]

obd don't get into this pissing contest you will loose. For all your armed forces bravado very little of it has been used. the British armed forces have been of ops continuously since 1945 except 1 year in the 1960's(i think).
I would also sugest you look at how many of the operations your military has screwed up as well.
The SAS have a hell of alot more experience than the US SF but do things quietly and away from the blaze of the media.
If you want the list of British ops in the last 50 years we will provide them.
the SAS have a variety of regiments? there is 1 SAS regiment which has 3 bn's 2 of which are reserve

[Argyll]

OBD you have not got a fooking clue have you?
How many DA missions has the war on terror done?very few,yet CAG are involved ,why do you think that is? CAG operators were on the ground conducting the same missions as was DEVGU,in Iraq and Afghanistan!
For your Info the SAS are all High speed guys,each Sabre takes it's turn to preform CRW roles,with one Sabre on permanent standy in the UK!
Delta was role modelled from the SAS,and they remain a DA unit!

[DeltaWhisky58]

OBD is clearly totally misinformed in his views on British Special Forces, or perhaps it's just a case of "if it ain't US it ain't any good".

Well, if the SAS are so far out of it, why have we had to call up reservists and deploy them to Afghanistan alongside the regulars? To be honest, I've seen some crap posted about the SAS over the years, but these comments have to top it all.

As Argyll says, out SF units total less than 1,000 men - all of these top-notch operators, way, way ahead of the run-of-the-mill Special forces operators of other countries. OBD talks about lack of recent experience - even if we cover the period since GW1 in 2001 we have Northern Ireland, The Former Yugoslavia, Sierra Leone, Continued operations in Iraq per-GW2, Afghanistan, Columbia, to name but a few...........get your facts right please!

[ShotOver]

Watch out fellas, when the yanks wake up this thread will be active with Pro-American, Anti Every other country posts, as usual.

Oh well, im goin for a kip... Cya blokes later.

[California Joe]

The SAS are top tier. Period. Excellence transcends nationalism.

These groups that we constantly refer to around here are not football teams or NASCAR drivers. So please try to cut out this silly who's better bull****.

[ibstolidude]

For all your armed forces bravado very little of it has been used. the British armed forces have been of ops continuously since 1945 except 1 year in the 1960's(i think).
I would also sugest you look at how many of the operations your military has screwed up as well. If you want the list of British ops in the last 50 years we will provide them. This arguement is as stupid and ill-founded as OBD..

let us not pretend that the UK forces have not had their fair share of bungled opertions as well as successes... the US forces have been invovled in operations for almost everyyear of it's existence. Some good, some bad, some great, some tragic....if you choose to pretend that it isn't the case for UK forces you are just as onesided as you state OBD is...that goes for
your fellow patriots, are hyper-patirotic. as well.

second...

And I find it funny that you suggest that everyone other than you, and no doubt your fellow patriots, are hyper-patirotic.
- I consider myself to be very patriotic...I love and serve my country and will continue to do so...that has f*ck all to due with my opinions of ODB's goofy ass comments....

@ OBD - what the in the hell are you flapping your gums about? how can your assumptions and reading op/ed articles give you this insight into the real SAS of the UK.... The SAS/SBS gents with whom I have worked./trained were absolute pro's in their trade and in all of their endeavors...they were willing to share their knowledge with us and we inturn shared anything we had with them...I am happy to have had the experience. It is a farce to refer to them as inexperienced...they were anything but.
I even met the youngest SBS in service. Even he (although standing next to the others looked like a young teenager) was an absolute professional.
But I am not any of the forces in your odd comparisions, so I know I am not qualified to make such judgements such as you did...what qualifies you?

[Argyll]

Thank you for the respect Stoli,and I'm sure the guys you worked with would also thank you!

I think the thing about Patriotism was more aimed at the younger guys,not the BTDT's among you,where proffesional coutesy is shared on both sides of the Atlantic!
Some of the kids here just get a bit carried away.........we are all Patriots !

[obd]

I never said that the SAS hadnt seen more wars than US SOF. They have a longer history. I merely said that in the last several decades US SOF have had more combat experience than SAS. You can hardly call Argentina a real balls out fight anyway now can you and Oman, Malaysia, etc was a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Lets face it, the SAS, if that article is correct and Im starting with the assumption that it is, is in real "****e". The reason I believe it is because of other things I read on the bbc and other places about problems with the SAS not being able to fulfill the demands placed on it due to insufficient size. That would make it a token silver bullet force would it not? Even SAS members have complained that the govnt is too fearful of using them because of fear they will die and lose the mystique of invincibility and also create an ambarrassment. Also, this article posted is not the only place I have read that the SAS has become a carreer "stepping stone" and fewer are staying in. This is also a problem for US special ops units although according to thier own data retention is still high. The only thing is "Boosh" has placed such unheard of demands on them that the old ideas of how large they have to be to simply have the men for the missions no longer apply and they are scrambling to get more. It is my opinion that the SAS are not a large enough unit to really matter and make a difference in a war of global scale such as the war on terror. They can only be deployed to a few areas and in limited fashion while the various US SF are deployed all over the world from South america to Africa to the Arctic circle (training), the SAS simply do not have enough men, even of every single last one was deployed, to do something like that. There is no denying it. Also, politically, the American administration is far more willing to actually use SF than Britain. Boosh had authorized US SF in a presidential finding to take any and all measures to eliminate terrorists whereever they exist anywhere on the planet. Im sorry, but I doubt the SAS has such a political mandate and could even accomplish such a massive workdwide mission if it had. Please dont get me wrong here. Im not trying to bash the SAS. IT may be that, with its limited resources, that its all Britain can afford but I think the SAS should be expanded, even at the cost of such fancy systems like the Eurofighter, so that they can better aide the US and can operate at a same tempo over an equivilant range as the US SF. Thats what Im saying. In my opinion, men like the SAS are going to be more valuable in this war on terror than a Typhoon. That goes the same for the F22 hehe. Yeah we need a few and it sure does create jobs and keep the technological edge, but F22 cant go into caves and penetrate civilian populaitons now can it? Of course, when our SF do get "in the ****" its noce to have an FA-22 overhead or a JSF to cover thei asses. So, in my opinion the SAS cant at the moment compete with the US SF in a real world sort of way and they are far less valuable and the only thing that can solve that is better pay, a political mandate to have more freedom to operate and take risks, an officer corps less risk averse and willing to stay in for the long hual, and more money to expand the ranks!!!! I welcome opinions.

[Miles Teg]

Have you forgotten all the other SF that have been in the War against terror (Please excuse me if i do not list all the countrys, i am very tired) Australia, Canada, Spanish, Italian, German, Swedish, New Zealand.. etc.

You are excused. ;)

Obd, change your keyboard, the return key is broken.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

obd I would quit at this moment you are just digging yourself into a deep hole. :(

[cut]

...that goes for
your fellow patriots, are hyper-patirotic. as well.

second...

And I find it funny that you suggest that everyone other than you, and no doubt your fellow patriots, are hyper-patirotic.
- I consider myself to be very patriotic...I love and serve my country and will continue to do so...that has f*ck all to due with my opinions of ODB's goofy ass comments....


hey! don't take my words out of context, I was not saying that you shouldn't be partiotic and want to serve your country. I said that obd makes it sound like any other nationality is too patriotic to see his way of thinking. I suggested he was being hypocritical, it was not a generalised attack on americans.

[Argyll]

. The United States has seen far more wars/battles in the last 50 years than Britain.
In that statement that's exactly waht you are inferring to,considering the SAS has been on the go since the 1940's,and the US SF have been on the go since what the 1960's,I'd say that was a 20 year head start right away!

More combat experience......shut the fok up man your digging yourself into a huge bloody hole.....you are completely clueless as to the Ops/Wars that the SAS has been on/In!
I'm also willing to bet that the SAS can compete with the US SOF in the real world very easily!

[Miles Teg]

obd I would quit at this moment you are just digging yourself into a deep hole.

Don't leave now, or give him a shovel, it would be able to go deeper.

[obd]

First off, CAG do not do guerilla warfare as a rule Argyll. They are exclusively a counter terror unit. They specialize and train for only DA missions agaisnt valued targets. They do not go in for months of years building guerilla forces up like Green Berets do. Yes, they were in A-stan of course but they were there doing DA only. According to one A team Green Beret leader the "D-boys" basically used Green Berets intel and intel from Afghan spies to find high value targets and then take them down. Thats the difference. And yes, of course Delta was originally modeled after SAS but that was back in the Charlie Bechwith days and new minds and ideas and tech have changed things quite a bit. DEVGRU are similar to CAG in that regard. They ARE NOT LIKE OTHER SEAL TEAMS AND DO NOT DO THE SAME MISSIONS FOR GODS SAKE. Devgru, like CAG, is primarly a hostage rescue/ anti terrorist unit. They do not go out into the jugle looking for trouble (recon) like the other seal teams. Mostly they respond to direct and specific intel and then go in an take down the target. That is basically their reason for existing. That is why DEVGRU, which stems from Marchinko's Seal Team 6 was created you numb nuts!! They simply dont do what other units do. They have a niche in counter terror ops agasint specific high value targets. A pefect example would be Somalia: The D-boys and DEVGRU were not their when the 10,000 Marines landed. Who was there though?= a regular SEAL team that scoutedthe beaches prior to landing. Delta and a very few ST6 guys only came in to take down Mahamed Farrah aidid and his boys and thats it. Yeah, they do have a limited organic intel capability but MOST (BUT NOT ALL) of the time they DO NOT DO THEIR OWN INTEL GATHERING Yes, other units in the US military can do the dame thing, but not with the same finesse and skill so DEVGRU or CAG gets the call, plain and simple. I hope that clears things up a bit for you Argyll.

[obd]

Uh, I guess you are forgetting the OSS and the US army Rangers of World War 2 then?

[cut]

right, I'm off for a bevvy, looks like obd got the point he only referred to the SAS once in the last post. Job done, catch you later guys.

[Argyll]

Shut the fok up you clown..........so DA that these units were reduced to providing CP for Karzai and his Government,that is not High Speed door kicking action is it?
You have no idea what the roles of the CAG are or their specific missions,they do whatever they are tasked to do,if that's providing CP then they,if they have to go and do a CTR ,they do,the USSOCOM uses whatever assets are available,and if there are CAG available then they will get used in a role that is set up by them!!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Uh, I guess you are forgetting the OSS and the US army Rangers of World War 2 then?

The OSS were a fantastic organization but were not a military special forces unit they performed covert duties overseas similar to MI6, they had ex military personnel but the OSS were composed of people from diverse backgrounds FBI, Navy, ex police detectives and academics. The Rangers were an elite infantry in WW2 with training very similar to the British commandos at the time.

[Beowulf]

OBD, use freaking paragraphs!

I'm glad that you think you know everyhting about USSOCOM units and their operations, I was unaware that we had a CJSOTF commander posting on our humble board. I don't care what you think you've read, or heard. The media is wildly inaccurate, I find myself almost laughing out loud at every article, most have yet to figure out the difference between SF and SOF.

Things change constantly and unless you are or were there you should shut up. (Obviously this doesn't go for the OSS and roger's ranger talk, although I think Tane was probably involved in those. ;) )

Finally, the SAS are one of the most professional, well trained and highly motivated groups I have had the pleasure to work with.

This discussion could be useful if it were to change it's focus to the MOD, funding or lack thereof and it's effects on the British military to include their special operatons forces. That is something I have gotten hints of but know little about...
All Best,
-b

[Flagg]

obd....one word....bollocks...care for some fruitcake?

http://www.pocketchef.com/fruitcake.jpg

[DeltaWhisky58]

Let's be frank, OBD's posts are not even literate, let alone well informed.

I really can't remember when I last heard such utter crap as that spouted on this thread by OBD. If he had even the slightest idea of the subject he claims to know so much about, his posts may be worth reading, but as it stands they are laughable.

To describe the actions the SAS have fought such as Oman and The Falklands for example as insignificant is ridiculous.

Pass this asshole a few kilos of PE, then he can dig his hole properly!

I'd be interested to see the reaction if he put his views on the SAS/SBS to his beloved US SF operators for their opinions - reckon he's have to eat his words.

[Red]

obd,your argument is really flawed.You are making your case from a news article when guys who were there are telling you otherwise.I have trained with both British and US forces and i have to say that they are very professional none over the other.The brits are good guys so are the Americans they know their ****.So stop talking about something i beleive you have no idea about.Thanks

[obd]

First off, I never made any comments about individual SAS members being "stupid", "poorly trained" or anything else. I simply said that the organization as a whole has some problems. Also, my information does not come from op-ed pieces although some of it does come from news sources such as AP, *******, CNN, BBC, etc. Next, I know that the OSS were not "special forces" per se but they were special units just as the British "commando's" were not exactly "Special forces" but they provided for some of the doctrine and lessons that led to "true" special forces. Also, the US Army Rangers did the same, although they are not "true" special forces in ALL regards. They are similar to the British "commando" units. Next, I actually do have a clue what the CAG and DEVGRU are about as I have read Charlie Beckwiths book on Delta as well as **** MArchinko's original non-fiction books on his vietnam experience and the creation of Red Cell and Seal Team 6. Yes, for a time Delta did do some close protection deatil of Karzai as he was a high value target for the Taliban/Queda so of course Delta protected him and also DEVGRU protected him. In fact, in many cases DEVGRU protection details were mistakenly identified as Delta force but as any informed person knows, Delta was quickly taken off the detail for other missions. Karzai's protection was then subcontracted out to company's like "Dynacorps" (spelling?) and others. I have interviews of green berets talkign about Delta getting the most juicy DA missions in A-stan so I think they know a little more than you British pukes who seem to think SAS are super men who can do anything. You can insult me all you like but it wont change the fact that SAS, as a unit, is more of a token silver bullet type force and not really all that effective in the real world. That doesnt mean that each individual SAS trooper is not trained along with the best in the world now fellas, it only means that there arnt really enough of them to make a damn difference in a war!. Thats all Im saying. They need more men and more equipment and more $$.

[Beowulf]

All right, I suggested a useful directon for the discussion and yet the pissing match continues.


it wont change the fact that SAS, as a unit, is more of a token silver bullet type force and not really all that effective in the real world.

You keep running your suck about things you know little to nothing about....your ignorant assed comments are disrespectful to those that have done things that you have wet dreams about.

I will not allow any unit to be bad mouthed by an oxygen thief polesmoker who has read a few books and thinks he knows something. Are you tracking Suzy?

If you want to start over in a new thread then go ahead, but do not disrespect any military unit, and for f-'s sake use paragraphs.

-b

[DeltaWhisky58]

Well, at least there is one point OBD and I agree on - the SAS do need more men and finance, otherwise the latest post follows the others........uninformed rubbish.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever suggest that any SF unit has changed the world - change the course of a minor conflict perhaps - but not the world.

So OBD has read Charlie Beckwith's book, a few interviews with the Delta-Boys - so feckin what! How does this qualify him to dismiss the SAS as being inferior to other SF units. The average SAS trooper is not a super man, I've never seen it suggested that they are, however man for man they are probably the most professional, experienced, battle-tested SF operators in the world today bar none. If OBD continues to argue the point on this, he is showing himself up as an ill-informed fool.

[Red]

Please obd stop this.You are a civilian,YOU DONT KNOW.No matter how many books you read,YOU DONT KNOW.The brits may need a few more men,yes we all know that.Are they effective with the small numbers that they have?Hell yes.Since you are not in the know,i suggest you STFU and RTB.

[Operation Ivy]

OBD, use freaking paragraphs

We tell you this all time listen!!! :fork:

[Chops]

"Next, I actually do have a clue what the CAG and DEVGRU are about as I have read Charlie Beckwiths book on Delta as well as **** MArchinko's original non-fiction books on his vietnam experience and the creation of Red Cell and Seal Team 6"

:lol:

Someone cap this illiterate **** please...

c

[California Joe]

**** Marcinko signed my book for me so I know more than you. By osmosis.

Go away.

[Scrim]

Jeeze, its the worst case of verbal diarrhea Ive ever encountered, he just cant stop himself. And yes, I read a book about diarrhea once so I know its the worst case ever.

[Argyll]

Just to inform you all,as I did to cut,the article that was printed in the paper is not accurate,there has been some cases of these guy's leaving,but nowhere near the 40 as claimed..........my mate who's still "badged" told me tonight,as I asked him about it!
He said not to listen to tabloid press as they're full of ****!.I'd take his word as a mate and as one in the know,over something printed in the papers!
He also said Iraq is still "mental",and still every bit as dangerous as it was 3 months ago!

[Trident-za]

I'd agree with that Argyll - these guys didn't join for money, did they? Not to say they won't leave for it, but the numbers seem wrong (IMHO).

[Kungfujoe]

SAS=CAG=SF=SEALS=Most other countries SF

[cut]

SAS=CAG=SF=SEALS=Most other countries SF

yes, yes and rangers=SEALS too? ;)

[gk404]

Jeeze, its the worst case of verbal diarrhea Ive ever encountered, he just cant stop himself. And yes, I read a book about diarrhea once so I know its the worst case ever.

Bwaaaahhaaaahaaaa!

Too funny!

[ibstolidude]

this thread=poo

[Trigger]

Guys, don't be fooled:
obd (Osama bin Dumbass) does not represent us Americans. Don't let him wind you up.

Verbal Diarrhea. Priceless. rofl

[NcDeuce]

These groups that we constantly refer to around here are not football teams or NASCAR drivers. So please try to cut out this silly who's better bull****.


OBD you have not got a fooking clue have you?

^ Word Word

[SOG]

Watch out fellas, when the yanks wake up this thread will be active with Pro-American, Anti Every other country posts, as usual.

Oh well, im goin for a kip... Cya blokes later.

oh! gosh, when the yanks woke up they all agreed with you! **** me!

you got something to say about us as a whole "mate" or you letting one little yank get to you?
rofl
as usual....

[ShotOver]

haha, sorry about that.

This is a surprise, i didnt think you blokes would be against him.

:oops:

[martinexsquaddie]

as my Cqms like to say
please continue I'm a bit of a bull****ter in my spare time but I love to watch a professional at work :lol:

[Luxembourger]

Any Nation that has nukes will never be defeated .

[Luxembourger]

DAMN I POSTED ON THE WRONG PLACE
sorry

[ShotOver]

Holy ****, you must be a C&C gamer or somthing, becuase that statement was totally stupid.

Do you know how many nations have nukes? Alot, if russia and china launch theirs at America... then America will be defeated.

So, having nukes does not mean you are invincible.

[Luxembourger]

I mean that if a nation has nukes , it s foes won t dare to attack it as it would result in a Atomic war and noone wants that as there will be no winner

[ShotOver]

Ah yes, that makes more sence.

But in North Korea's case, they are lying about having Nukes so that they can get money from the world.

Scum *spits*

[THE_Dorff]

after reading this thread, i have had a fair share of laughs, tears and the strange feeling of wanting to **hit** someone...

just a couple of things that I have picked up/ want to comment on:

1) The only year that British forces have not been involved in is either '63 or '68 if my memory serves me corectly...

2) regarding / funding worldwide usage:

This is a problem facing the ENTIRE british armed forces, not just the SAS, Britain is NEVER going to have the same number of soldiers/sailors/airmen as the US, hell were half the size of Texas...
There have been intances in the recent gulf conflict which have shown the true extent of teh underfunding in the British armed forces- this is currently playing out in court after an army tank oficer was killed after the fracas regarding his body armour...

3) The SAS and most other western spec ops units are cross trained, train together which leads to high compatability within these units...

4) regarding the various "job descriptions" OBD gave the US spec for, the SAS has been involved in CRW (like CAG), counter insurgency operations (like the green berets) etc, etc, etc....

5) the thing that made me almost cry was OBD's reference to the falklands conflict in 1982, although this wasnt a long conflict, some of the most brutal, bloody and emotionally scarring warfare occurred here and full respect needs to be payed to those servicemen who served there...

I think the underlying argument here (that I can kind of see OBD's point on) is the lack of funding for the British military, unlike the US, the military over here isn't as "glorified" as it SEEMS to be (i could be wrong here) in the US... And this all isnt helped by the controversy that surrounded out recent "foray" in to Iraq...

B

[marktigger]

obd's comments about the Falklands and Oman are actually total garbage there is always lessons to be learnt from conflicts. Oman in particular has some very useful lessons that are just as applicable in Iraq and Afganistan today.

[Argyll]

He's obviously never read about the Battle of Mirbat,has he?
He's neither read about the Raid on Pebble Island during the Falklands War either,in fact he's read stuff from books without havin listened to the guys who were there.
Seems to forget the Ops that the SAS carried out in Columbia too,seems to forget that the SAS was involved in many many Insurgency wars in the African Continent,also has seen action in Borneo,Malaya,but still he read books tho ;),and then there are the Ops that nobody knows about ;) ,still I guess the SAS are not up to much judging by his Patriotic sense of duty,these days........I'd love to burst his bubble about some other stuff I know,but I'm not going to !

[marktigger]

Oman and Borneo is still taught as the classic successful counter insurgencey campagins. He should try reading 'SAS-secret war' or 'we won a war'.

[DeltaWhisky58]

He's obviously never read about the Battle of Mirbat,has he?
He's neither read about the Raid on Pebble Island during the Falklands War either,in fact he's read stuff from books without havin listened to the guys who were there.
Seems to forget the Ops that the SAS carried out in Columbia too,seems to forget that the SAS was involved in many many Insurgency wars in the African Continent,also has seen action in Borneo,Malaya,but still he read books tho ;),and then there are the Ops that nobody knows about ;) ,still I guess the SAS are not up to much judging by his Patriotic sense of duty,these days........I'd love to burst his bubble about some other stuff I know,but I'm not going to !


Oman and Borneo is still taught as the classic successful counter insurgencey campagins. He should try reading 'SAS-secret war' or 'we won a war'.

To be honest guys, I'm not even sure that OBD has done his research on US Special Forces. I just can't believe that anyone with even a passing knowledge of the subject could have made the empty-headed comments that we've seen over the past 24 hours.

Although the opinions on this matter of most of the British-based contributors to this forum are probably the same, I doubt any are going to get into a My Dad's bigger than your Dad type slanging match over SF abilities and tactics etc. As far as SF units go, the British SAS and SBS have nothing to prove to anyone anywhere. They are small, under-funded and over utilised, but they are right up there at the pinnacle of excellence, the yardstick by which all SF units are measured.

I rest my case M'Lud..............

[Gordon]

Judging from most of obd's comments I think he expects to read about every SAS / SBS mission in the news and as he hasn't heard much about them in the news, and he hasn't seen any interviews with any of the SAS / SBS lads on telly then, obviously it means that they're not in theatre at the moment and they're all sitting at home having a few beers because they haven't got enough cash to catch the next plane to Baghdad.

[obd]

wow havnt been here in awhile. Actually, I have read about the "battle of Mirbat" and such. Example would be Corp. Laba Laba who is famous and fought bravely at the "gun pit" where he died to save his buddy and his fellows against the Adoo(spelling?) attack. I read the book bythe famous SAS vet "Soldier I" all about Oman. I just want to repeat, I never said the SAS couldnt fight. I read alot about the famous desert raids on German airfields in Ww2, Malaysia, Oman, Argentina, Northern Ireland, etc because I have always been a fan of the SAS. I LOVE the SAS peoples!!! But that doesnt change the fact that ANY unit, including CAG or DEVGRU is always in danger of becoming a silver bullet force if its gets too small and too specialized and if it is so expensive to create that nobody wants to use it!!! Also, if it gets mistreated and bungled by politics it can lose its men. I drew the conclusion that things were going badly for the SAS by several factors: First, the very public problems with deployement and call ups of reserves to handle A-stan and Iraq and who knows where else. Second, the article on many troops leaving for more money, third several former SAS complaining about retention and that the SAS seems to have become more of a carreer stepping stone now than the place for real inovation and for the "professional soldiers" that were tired of all the B.S. of infantry life. Finally, the SAS really is a very small very elite group of men and, in my humble opinion, its too darn small of a group. I think, and you can say I have no right to think ro whatever, that they need more funding and expanion of the ranks to handle the increase in missions that it will probably have for the foreseable future. And you can tell me Im stupid and Im wrong but anyone who wants can watch the news and see several very high ranking British Mod peeps saying the same things!!!!! Oh yeah, and I do maintain that CAG and DEVGRU were designed for one primary purpose and that DA ops against high value targets. That is thier niche guys. Otherwise they would be quite redundant if they did exactly what the GB's do.

[Haiw]

Okay, since apprently the idea of this thread is to talk **** about something you know totally NOTHING about I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents as well.

-First of all I think the way NASA builds their rockets is totally wrong. They should use solar-tech to propel the rockets, and start experiments with a jaccuzzi in space.

-Second I think the recipe of the Mars bar should change. Maybe add some biscuit or something to it... Anyway, the old recipe is getting old.

-Last but not least I would like to make a call out to all dogs in the world. Please dogs, don't **** on the damn sidewalk.

Thank you obd for making this wonderfull bull**** thread where I could finally say what my heart truly had to say...

[Royal]

I LOVE the SAS peoples!!!

I'm sure they're deeply grateful.


I drew the conclusion that things were going badly for the SAS by several factors: First, the very public problems with deployement and call ups of reserves to handle A-stan and Iraq and who knows where else.

Your clearly an expert on the subject, maybe you could explain to me, an ignorant Brit, why the US Reserve SF/SOF community has been sitting on their arses at home reading GI Joe comics?


Second, the article on many troops leaving for more money, third several former SAS complaining about retention and that the SAS seems to have become more of a carreer stepping stone now than the place for real inovation and for the "professional soldiers" that were tired of all the B.S. of infantry life.

The private security industry (which of course is never used by the US Government) doesn't use ex-US personell, because they all serve until they're 65 and then go straight to hospital for knee replacements and then on to a VA home to read GI Joe comics in front of the fire (with a rug over those knees).


third several former SAS complaining about retention and that the SAS seems to have become more of a carreer stepping stone now than the place for real inovation and for the "professional soldiers" that were tired of all the B.S. of infantry life. .

You of course, being an expert, know these guys personally and know that Operators in UKSF have never rotated back to their parent units for promotion, cross training or simply a break for their families or bodies.


Finally, the SAS really is a very small very elite group of men and, in my humble opinion, its too darn small of a group.

It is indeed. It may not have penetrated your thick scull, but the UK is rather smaller in size and population than the USofA. Our armed forces are commesurately smaller. They have no intention of introducing an 18X programme and are not prepared (rightly so) to reduce their standards to meet some political recruiting target. The Regiment are not the only SF unit in the UK armoury.


-Second I think the recipe of the Mars bar should change. Maybe add some biscuit or something to it... Anyway, the old recipe is getting old.

Someone talking sense at last.

Haiw for Prime Minister woot

[obd]

Hey I resent that. The Mars bar is an icon. It should never be messed with!!! Of course Im no expert. I was just expressing my own opinion. Few of us on here are experts at all. We have opinions and they change as we learn more... Also I was just repeating what I had heard. Of course some US SOF go off to do other things after thier service but, afain going off the article that has since been revealed as crap, the SAS seemed to have been loosing a hugely higher percentage of men to that sort of behavior which was worrying to me.

Uhh lets see, the US reserve SF community are alot of old dudes Royal. They have jobs and family's and probably wont be called up until needed, which was exactly my point: The British ARE having to call up ALOT of reserves to fill the ranks out in the SAS so they can accomplish what they have been tasked with!

Also, I believe there was a distinction between troops being rotated back to their units and simply leaving the SAS altogether to move on with thier carreers!!!

Oh and programs to increase the ranks of the Sf like 18x were not "politically motivated" but were motivated by the necessity of a huge war effort. You can talk all you want about quality and the "quantity vs. quality" argument is age old but I think its safe to say that the United States has always stressed quality over quantity but also recognized that thier is a fine balance. It is possible to train up one "super soldier" from birth at the cost of millions and then have him die in a helo accident on the way to a target. I know its a bad psuedo-analogy but you get my point! There is ALWAYS a danger of a force becoming so small and so expensive that it becomes only a silver bullet token force even less useful than 600,000 conscripts scraped up from the ghettos and armed with pitchforks.

[Royal]

Uhh lets see, the US reserve SF community are alot of old dudes Royal. They have jobs and family's and probably wont be called up until needed, which was exactly my point: The British ARE having to call up ALOT of reserves to fill the ranks out in the SAS so they can accomplish what they have been tasked with!

You don't get sarcasm either, do you?

My point was that the US is using it's SF/SOF reservists, just as the UK is.

The British do not have "ALOT of reserves" to fill out the ranks of the SAS and not all British SF reservists are SAS. :cantbeli:

[obd]

well I thought I detected some sarcasm but I wasnt aware that the US was pulling up "alot" of its reserve SF. I was aware that some were called up in limited numbers. Also, when I say "alot" its pretty clear Im talking about relative percentages here. As someone said earlier "The UK is half the size of Texas". Of course Im not talking about "large amounts" by US standards. I mean percentages!!!! Large amounts by British standards is tiny force by American standards and Im aware of that. Oh, and the US has alot more "interests" to cover around the globe than England so I wouldnt be surprised as there are currently far greater demands on US forces in general than UK forces. Let me rephrase that: The US has more power and so has the ability to do something about its interests around the world whereas Britain really doesnt now does it. As was reported by the BBC, many in England today see it as impossible to wage a war alone without US support. It has also been mentioned, and Im sure you have heard this because it was mentioned by several people in the MOD by the BBC, that if England faced a second Falklands it could not no longer prosecute that war!!! These are not my words but the words of English defense ministry people as well politicians.

[DeltaWhisky58]

OBD Said:
Let me rephrase that: The US has more power and so has the ability to do something about its interests around the world whereas Britain really doesnt now does it.

Says who?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

many in England today see it as impossible to wage a war alone without US support. It has also been mentioned, and Im sure you have heard this because it was mentioned by several people in the MOD by the BBC, that if England faced a second Falklands it could not no longer prosecute that war!!! These are not my words but the words of English defense ministry people as well politicians.

Alas we are free I went to bed as a citizen of the UK and woke up as a free Scot according obd, look son while we Scots are chucking our lot in with the rest of the UK do not mention
if England faced a second Falklands and
English defense ministry ever again.

If you ever visit Scotland you will appreciate this advice.

[DeltaWhisky58]

many in England today see it as impossible to wage a war alone without US support. It has also been mentioned, and Im sure you have heard this because it was mentioned by several people in the MOD by the BBC, that if England faced a second Falklands it could not no longer prosecute that war!!! These are not my words but the words of English defense ministry people as well politicians.

Alas we are free I went to bed as a citizen of the UK and woke up as a free Scot according obd, look son while we Scots are chucking our lot in with the rest of the UK do not mention
if England faced a second Falklands and
English defense ministry ever again.

If you ever visit Scotland you will appreciate this advice.

I'll second that mate.

P.S. What proportion of the UK Armed Forces is manned by Scots? Which is the only fully manned (by Brits) Regiment in the British Army - The Highlanders.

[cut]

Alas we are free I went to bed as a citizen of the UK (...)

apparently were not citizens but subjects of the queen, we're citizens of Europe though (EU), the joy!

[spectre5]

Obd learn to type for ****s sake man. I hate reading your text dude :roll:

[Fox2]

Youch. This sounds like a mighty terrible thread. :|

"My SF is better than your SF."

Hey, why don't we all just agree that we're on the same damned side, we're all bad mofos, and we all kick alot of ass, hm?

Both the United States and United Kingdom armed forces are classy outfits, and you'd be hard pressed to find a better trained or equipped bunch of guys. Furthermore, you'd be hard pressed to find a better team than the United States and the United Kingdom.

Both of our countries are taxed in this war, and have been in wars passed. The difference in how much each is taxed is irrelevant. We work together to overcome.

So, what do you say, folks? Let's forget this comparative crap and have a few mugs later tonight (it's morning here :( ). I'll bring the beer.


On second thought, how about you Brits provide the refreshment, considering the quality of American beer? ;)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

apparently were not citizens but subjects of the queen, we're citizens of Europe though (EU), the joy!

In the international community we are British citizens ( back of my passport says "British Citizen" ) I dont know what newish passports have in them.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Nah nothing like that Fox2 just ole obd rewriting our military history for us, it would be acceptable if he passed an opinion but those are usually based on fact or some research I have seen little or any of either from obd on this thread.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Dunno how many Scots are in the UK armed forces but Dr Asifa Maaria Hussain has done a bit of work on the ethnic breakdown of UK armed forces I think she had a paper out saying that the UK armed forces was the most cohesive organisation in the UK, she is a nice looking burd if you like the Gothic look.

[Royal]

many in England today see it as impossible to wage a war alone without US support. It has also been mentioned, and Im sure you have heard this because it was mentioned by several people in the MOD by the BBC, that if England faced a second Falklands it could not no longer prosecute that war!!! These are not my words but the words of English defense ministry people as well politicians.

Alas we are free I went to bed as a citizen of the UK and woke up as a free Scot according obd, look son while we Scots are chucking our lot in with the rest of the UK do not mention
if England faced a second Falklands and
English defense ministry ever again.

If you ever visit Scotland you will appreciate this advice.

I'll second that mate.

P.S. What proportion of the UK Armed Forces is manned by Scots? Which is the only fully manned (by Brits) Regiment in the British Army - The Highlanders.

I'll third it and I'm sure Argyll and a few others feel the same way.

P.S. Last I heard, the Duke of Boots were full strength with Brit's (as I think were one of the LI battalions).

[DeltaWhisky58]

Pleased to hear the Wellies are full stregnth, and not surprised about the RGJ/LI either.

The Scottish Division is pretty well fully manned now - albeit with help from our Fijian friends, and most batallions have seen active service in the past year (except KOSB/RHF), so what do Big Tone and Hooney Tunes threaten to do, cut it by at least one battalion.

I live in the heart of former Seaforth Highlanders and subsequently Queens Own and now Highlanders territory, my family connections with the Seaforths and Gordons go back to Waterloo. When the government last forced a merger on us in 1993/4 (QOH/Gordons) there were demonstrations in the streets. I took my late Great Uncle Willie - Former RSM 1st Seaforths, joined up 1928, ret'd as Major in 1962 - to the final QOH/Gordons merger parade, he cried like a baby.

Don't do it!

Jocks forever!

[cut]

forever's one word mate... other than that you're cool, yeah

[DeltaWhisky58]

forever's one word mate... other than that you're cool, yeah

Thanks Dad!...........I've corrected my homework, OK? Can I go out now?

[cut]

wash behind your ears first.

[DeltaWhisky58]

:backhand:

[Argyll]

Want another interesting perspective,there is a very high percentage of Scots within the SAS!

obd......tell me the strength of CAG and DEVGRU,not exactly,just ball park figures will do?...............I'm sure you'll find that they numbers wise about the same as the SAS,approx 350-400 men!

Going back to US SOF,both the 19th and 20th SFG were activated for Afghanistan,same way as 21 and23 SAS was.

Again the SAS is very very much a High Speed unit,only too capable of taking down an A/C or an Embassey,but they can also do a hell of a lot more,such as clandestine warfare,Mountain Warfare,Sea Warfare,Desert Warfare......they can do every role out there,it's what we Brits call flexability,and that's what sets the SAS apart,in that it can do all of the above!
I have also replied,in relation to the original thread,after speaking to my mate who is still connected,he dismissed the story as tabloid ****e.....I think I'd take his word for it over some reporter from the Sun newspaper.
Think of it this way,most of these guys are adrenalin junkies,and although the big bucks are there to be earned,babysitting some civvies is a major step down for them,most of them ,like my mates are working for a US firm,providing CP Duties for US Civilians,and US Companies......maybe you want to ask yourself why that is?

Another interesting tidbit,at one point the Argylls had more men in the Ranks of the SAS,than any other unit apart from the Para's...........Jocks make excellent soldiers!

[California Joe]

It must be the kilts and lack of underpants.

[oldsoak]

A man who can wear a kilt in scottish weather will be capable of many things over and above the ordinary.

[Trident-za]

Jocks make excellent soldiers!


Argyll, I don't know if you remember my question to you a few months back about kilts, no underwear and knee-high thistles. I'm not suprised the Jocks make good soldiers - tough bastards :lol:

Sort of off the topic - but it seems to me (from the reading I've done) that there are a suprising number of New Zealanders and South Africans in the SAS. I know one South African currently with the SAS. For those in the know - is this "generally" true? Or is my impression actually false?

[Argyll]

There are Aussies too! ;)

Thistles never bothered me!!! ;)

[marktigger]

yep but the porridge wogs keep singing about marching through the heather!!!! that is impossible you can trip through it and fall through it but marching through it .......i think not ;)

[Royal]

Sort of off the topic - but it seems to me (from the reading I've done) that there are a suprising number of New Zealanders and South Africans in the SAS. I know one South African currently with the SAS. For those in the know - is this "generally" true? Or is my impression actually false?

Alot of Kiwis come across on exchange from the NZSAS and transfer in. There was an impression that the Regiment in the UK saw more action than their Kiwi counterparts. Most of the Kiwis were badged before they came across.

Now the ex-Rhodesian generation are gone there are far fewer from Africa, there are a couple of Zim's and several South Africans that I know of but not really a disproportionate number.

[Trident-za]

Thanks Royal, much appreciated.

I guess the thing that suprised me was these guys weren't staying within their own country's SF units. But, as you say - differences in the amount of "action". From a South African perspective, I have no doubt the SAS have better funding than our local unit. And, going by the sort of salary mentioned here, with the exchange rate factured in - the average SAS trooper earns a whole more than lawyers/doctors in South Africa.

P.S. Argyll, you're obviously tougher than me mate - those thistles would really ruin my day ;)

[California Joe]

*watching Rob Roy*

[DeltaWhisky58]

There is one serious disadvantage to doing anything in heather - Ticks!

A few years ago, after a day deer stalking in Argyll wearing knee breeches and long socks, I took over 200 ticks and tick-nymphs off of my legs - these were all below the knee.

In these days of tick-born diseases such as Lyme disease etc. which is endemic in most of the US and has now spread to the UK (I've had it) always be very careful after moving through heather - if you get any flu-like syptoms within three-four weeks, get yourself medically checked out and insist on a blood-test for Lyme disease - if treated imediately with antibiotics it's all done and dusted, leave it and you will get life long trouble!

[California Joe]

Hairy.

[Trident-za]

At the risk of turning this into yet another "my d*** is bigger than yours" competition...... 200 ticks below the knee isn't that big a deal. I've had similar, and worse, experiences in South Africa.

What is Lymes disease? I know we have "tick bite fever" here (which is seriously unpleasant to get - 3 times so far for me) - is Lymes similar? Starts with flu-like symptoms, then swelling and discoloration at the nearest gland, then inability to even stand for days.....

OK, back on topic - again, based purely on my reading - but 23 SAS (I think it's 23 - the "northern england" bunch) are known for being incredibly fit and tough, in comparision to 21. True, or a media-generated myth?

[California Joe]

At the risk of turning this into yet another "my d*** is bigger than yours" competition...... 200 ticks below the knee isn't that big a deal. I've had similar, and worse, experiences in South Africa.

What is Lymes disease? I know we have "tick bite fever" here (which is seriously unpleasant to get - 3 times so far for me) - is Lymes similar? Starts with flu-like symptoms, then swelling and discoloration at the nearest gland, then inability to even stand for days.....

OK, back on topic - again, based purely on my reading - but 23 SAS (I think it's 23 - the "northern england" bunch) are known for being incredibly fit and tough, in comparision to 21. True, or a media-generated myth?

Lyme Disease is named for Lyme, Connecticut. Where the didease was diagnosed in this country. May be the same ailment as tick fever but it causes permanenet damage and death in extreme cases. Hope you don't have it mate.

[Trident-za]

Thanks Joe, doesn't sound the same... never heard of anyone dying from tickbite fever.

I spent a bit of time in Scotland, and loved it -apart from a few minuses (weather, haggis, the inability to understand the locals, to name a few)... sounds like I need to add Lyme disease to the list. I know this sounds more like a travel site than a military one, but Scotland is a place everyone should visit :)

[California Joe]

It looks F'ing beautiful. Plus, Argyll promised to get me drunk.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Tick-fever symptoms sound pretty much similar to the strain of Lyme disease we have here in the UK. I didn't mention the ones that got past my knees - exatracting those was a job left to my other half - it put her of anything else for a while more's the pity! :petting:

Oh, and BTW - Scotland is usually beautiful, but tonight it sure isn't - it's blowing a hoolley outside and snowing sideways...............pass the shovel!

[PongoLogs]

You can hardly call Argentina a real balls out fight anyway now can you.

I've been registered 5 minutes and already this guy has pissed me off!

The Argy regs were decent troops, lets not pretend otherwise - as far as the conscripts are concerned; try moving towards a poorly trained soldier who is armed with a GPMG.....

Lets not firget their air force, At San Carlos I watched in awe at the out and out balls of those guys.

Just confirm for me OBD, where were you in the Falklands to have such a well founded opinion?