Another Chopper down in Iraq......crew missing!

[Argyll]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1120626,00.html

[Trident-za]

This is not good!!

Yahoo article on same thing:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040125/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter_crash

[Trident-za]

Is this getting coverage on the news channels like CNN, BBC etc? I don't have access to any of them.... was wondering if someone could give an update on this story? South African local TV rarely covers anything to do with Iraq, unfortunately.....

[Maverick77]

Not really its not a big deal so they really dont say anything much

[Argyll]

Unless purely for OPSEC then I'd say 2 MIA's and a downed helo is a pretty big deal

[Maverick77]

not in a war

[memphiz]

hopefully they find them :(
i dont understand how they could be missing though?
arent most soldiers in radio contact?

[Argyll]

So how come it's big deal when the Coalition suffer casualties......after all it is a war and these things happen!
How come it was a big deal when the US lost 6 helo's in a month......after all it is a war
How come it's a big deal when the enemy inflict damage and are fighting back unconventionaly.........after all it's a war

Any MIA is a big deal......even in a war,as they are someones Father,Son,Brother Uncle or Mother,Daughter,Sister or Aunt...try telling the family of the missing it's no big deal!!

[Trident-za]

Not a big deal? I would say that the implications of the crew being missing is a pretty big deal.

[California Joe]

Big Deal.

[farmgirl]

Of course it's a big deal. Every life lost is a big deal. Every MIA is a big deal. If it ever stops being a big deal, we should wonder what the hell has become of us. :|

[Trident-za]

Very true

[Gauntlet]

Man this is sad. I bet the families are worrying themselves sick. :(

I still find it odd that those men are missing. I thought we had troops all over the country.

[NeedsABetterName]

airborne249:It is a big deal!If you were the family of one of the crew,and you got a report saying they were MIA,would you think it is a big deal then?Even one person killed is a big deal.Think,over 500 US families of US servicemen now are 1 (or more) member(s) short.And the death toll is still rising.This is not meant to be a political statement I was just pointing this out to airborne249.This is not a good situation.Hopefully they have a radio,payed attention at their E and E course,and that God is with the families at thee time.I hope they see a safe return...

[Maverick77]

I made that statement from a military standpoint

where 2 MIA means nothing at all in a war

[Maverick77]

and the news does not report heavily on one chopper down and 2 MIA because it is not a big deal in a war in comparison to the other things that happen.

[Fox2]

Good luck and Godspeed to those downed Marines.


PS - A question for Argyll. I haven't heard much about British choppers being hit/shot down. Is it that there aren't many British choppers flying about? Or is it just a matter of the news/media not really reporting them?

[RomanS]

I PRAY FOR THEM!

[Haiw]

PS - A question for Argyll. I haven't heard much about British choppers being hit/shot down. Is it that there aren't many British choppers flying about? Or is it just a matter of the news/media not really reporting them?
Or maybe that gravity doesn't seem to influence 'em as much as the US choppers ;)

[NcDeuce]

not in a war

Umm...how about you tell the families? or even better, the soldiers' comrades.

[Maverick77]

How about you tell a member of the 101st Airborne who fought in Bastone or on Hamburger Hill that 2 MIA is a big deal.

Or somebody from the 6th Army in Stalingrad

Tell a Marine who survived the battle for Hue city with all his body parts still intact.

[Merik]

It is both a big deal and really not a big deal. Airborne249 is right in the sense that in a war, 2 MIA's is not a big deal. They need to find the crew yes, but its not on the number one priority list. The only reason why it looks like it has become a big deal is becuase the media has blown it totally out of proportion like they always do with something.

Now in saying that, in a personal matter like families and everything, it is a big deal because the crew has loved ones bach home probably. And its always good to here that someone made it out alive.

But to the overall military operation, big deal.

[Maverick77]

exactly

The American public has got to keep their **** together here for the sake of the soldier on the ground in Iraq.

It is a war, people have died and will continue to die until the Coalition leaves Iraq.

That has to be accepted by the public in order for Iraq mission to not go to waste. So the soldiers did not die for nothing.

because the American Govenrment is easily influenced by the public compared to most places.

[California Joe]

We're talking apples and oranges here. To their comrades and their families it is a huge deal. Statistically speaking it's not. I still wouldn't want to be them.

[Merik]

exactly

The American public has got to keep their **** together here for the sake of the soldier on the ground in Iraq.

It is a war, people have died and will continue to die until the Coalition leaves Iraq.

That has to be accepted by the public in order for Iraq mission to not go to waste. So the soldiers did not die for nothing.

because the American Govenrment is easily influenced by the public compared to most places.

Well I didnt want to say it like that because its not the est way to put it.

[NcDeuce]

And if it happened to be a Canadian crew...then what?

All of you Canadian members will bust out as we have.

Losing a crew is a big deal...not to the guy sitting in front of a PC screen.

Helicopter = $$$

Everyone in that unit's chain of command is probably going bongos over the situation.

Units that are conducting the search for bodies and all the grim work.

Units that are there to investigate the incident.

Family members of that unit are probably at the base FRG's or whatever they got there and wondering who it was.

IT IS A BIG DEAL.

[Maverick77]

If it was a Canadian crew then it was a Canadian crew makes no differance.

[Argyll]

Re British Choppers
As far as I know ther have been no UK Helo's downed since the cesation of Major hostilities,but to be honest I don't think there is a need for the UK to use choppers as much as the US,and their roles would be different too,the Kiowa is a recce bird,we do not have a dedicated recce bird,tho the Lynx and the Gazelle could do it if neccesary I guess,the UK birds also lack the sophisticated gear that the US ones do as well.

[martinexsquaddie]

thats because we only have 4 helicopters in total :(
apart from the apaches that are tucked up in there nice centraly heated hanger, much too expensive to play with. though the Army Air Corp if they been good all weekcan go and drool at on on a saturday afternoon :lol:
Its probably to do with Basra's relativly quiteness and the fact you get out of town one side you have the desert there is bascially no cover unless you want to hide behind a dead tank.
or theres the marshes and any anti coalition types going into the marshes wil get to play an iraqi version of "southern comfort"

[mustamato]

Have to agree with NcDeuce. It´s a big deal, not for the teenager that reads about it on CNN.com on his PC. But on the ground securing the area around the downed chopper and trying to find those two MIA will probably involve thousands(?) of US soldiers. Not a big deal huh?

It´s interesting to see how vulnerable helicopters are in a guerilla war though, for me as neither being a american or a iraqi citizen. We´ve seen it over Chechnya already with rebels operating SA-7, SA-14 and SA-16 MANPADS and shooting down everything from small helicopters to larger ones (as the Mi-26 helicopter that carried over 130 persons when hit by a SAM).

Now US is facing insurgents with older more primitive SA-7´s mainly, but still getting shot down from the sky now and then. I think it´s a valuable lesson for countries like Iran and Syria. Meaning that they should spare their MANPADS during the US invasion and use them during the guerilla war afterwards instead. I´m just waiting for some big american bird to fall down on Iraq now, as that Mi-26 did over Chechnya. Wouldn´t look too good for Bush, with the election coming and all...

[cold0]

Some news about the US heli EW suits and the MANPADS "problem" in Iraq:

http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTECM.HTM

ELECTRONIC BATTLEFIELD: Making Helicopters SAM Proof



January 25, 2004: Equipping the U.S. Army's 2,500 helicopters with defenses against shoulder fired surface-to-air missiles (like the SAM-7 or Stinger), would cost $5-7 billion and take up to a year, or more to implement. A typical system has two components. First, there are four ultraviolet detection sensors (weighing about four pounds each) mounted on different parts of the helicopter to detect an approaching missile. These sensor are linked to an eleven pound computer that contains software for determining that the object is indeed a missile and where it is headed. The detection computer is hooked to a countermeasures system using either flares and chaff (strips of metal foil), or a laser, to confuse the missiles guidance system (that is homing in the heat of the helicopters engines.) The countermeasures component weighs 30-50 pounds, depending on type or model.

There is a debate going on inside the army over whether to equip helicopters with the army developed ATIRCM/CMWS (Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures/Common Missile Warning System), that uses flares and chaff, or a civilian system (DIRCM), that uses a laser to confuse the missiles guidance system. The DIRCM costs about 40 percent more than the ATIRCM/CMWS (which costs two million dollars per aircraft). The ATIRCM/CMWS uses a proven technology, which the DIRCM's laser has been successful in tests, but has not gotten much use in actual combat conditions. Because both systems use a lot of precision components, and a lot of them cannot be produced quickly. The army has equipped some of its Special Forces helicopters with DIRCM, but it would take about the same amount of time (late 2005, early 2006) to equip all army helicopters with either system. Many of the army's larger transport helicopters are equipped with an older, and less reliable, countermeasures system. So far, ten American helicopters have been hit by missiles in Iraq. If the attacks continue to bring down choppers, there will probably be a crash program to equip the most vulnerable helicopters (those operating over the few areas where most of the attacks occur) with a defensive system as soon as possible. This means 30-90 days.

[Luxembourger]

mustamato wrote

I´m just waiting for some big american bird to fall down on Iraq now, as that Mi-26 did over Chechnya.

What bird? why would you be happy if an American chopper crashes? :(

[mustamato]

mustamato wrote

I´m just waiting for some big american bird to fall down on Iraq now, as that Mi-26 did over Chechnya.

What bird? why would you be happy if an American chopper crashes? :(

No I meant more that it will happen sooner or later. The americans reputation of being nearly invicible has sure as hell been wiped away with this conflict. It´s important because people don´t longer think that it´s just suicidal, now they know that they can kill americans and even get away with it. This was hardly the case prior to Bush Jr, and many that didn´t try before are trying now.

The americans don´t have anything similar to the Mi-26 with 100+ personell flying around anyway, but they do have "small" transport aircraft (Hercules and so forth) that could be shot down with MANPADS after take-off (while obviously the giants as the Galaxy just keeps flying). And in election times that would not be very good for Bush.

[Maverick77]

How good is that defence system for AA missles.


Didnt a chinook have that on there but still got nailed before the system could even do anything.

[Luxembourger]

Did you remember the video made by the iraqi resistance in which they shot with an manpad at that Civil cargo plane over Baghdad international airport? you could even see some blackhawks hoovering a couple miles away.

Is the security perimeter not well guarded or too small in order to prevent iraqi terroirsts to get so close to the Airport and do what ever they want without s hurry....I mean those iraqi terroirsts walked at that field at if they were doing some picknick

[cold0]

The Chinook didn't have anything!!!! For the general performance of US Army EW against the SAM see my email in the Apache shoot down topic.

What mustamato is saying it's not correct; The Iraqi are using the more advanced SA-14, and before the IIGWW Saddam have bought hundreds of these missiles (and even the sophisticated SA-16); it's not clear today the numbers of these SAM in the hand of the Iraqui "insurgents".

[Maverick77]

Yeah it had something on there.

[Royal]

Re British Choppers
As far as I know ther have been no UK Helo's downed since the cesation of Major hostilities,but to be honest I don't think there is a need for the UK to use choppers as much as the US,and their roles would be different too,the Kiowa is a recce bird,we do not have a dedicated recce bird,tho the Lynx and the Gazelle could do it if neccesary I guess,the UK birds also lack the sophisticated gear that the US ones do as well.

British rotary a/c have been hit on a number of occasions - anyone remember the incident on the 24th of June last year in Al Majar Al Kabir when 6 RMP were killed and a Chinook carrying members of 1 Para was hit wounding several Paras and RAF aircrew. The Chinook that flew us back to the airport last time I was there was hit by small arms fire. On the whole we've been lucky becuase ManPads havn't been used.

[California Joe]

I think the terrain itself in Iraq and Somalia for instance makes flying helicopters more dangerous. In Vietnam we developed a tactic of flying low over the jungle canopy so the VC didn't have time to figure out the direction they were coming from. Maybe 11F5S could elaborate on that. As it is they are in a barren desert environment with no chance of cover and concealment.

[Truthsayer]

Did you remember the video made by the iraqi resistance in which they shot with an manpad at that Civil cargo plane over Baghdad international airport? you could even see some blackhawks hoovering a couple miles away.

Do you have an url to this video?

[Maverick77]

Almost all of the chopper shoot downs have been by AA gunners in the tall palm groves or whatever the **** you call them.

[Argyll]

Where did you get that info from?
I seem to recall eyewitness acounts of missile trails being seen,in most of the attacks,what I think you'll find is that the OH58's were more likely downed by Small Arms,as they're not as Armoured as the bigger birds,it takes a fair amount of SA to bring down a Chinook or an Apache.
AAA is different but then you're talking 12.7mm upwards,and it's not that easy to hide after the attack,they are pretty big guns!,and if you go upwards into the 23mm category,then you need to have them mounted or towed....again not easy to move around!

[Maverick77]

Just the area where most of the coppers have went is that type of terrain.

and thats obviously the best place to go in Iraq if you want to shoot a chopper down.

[Fioraon]

Our forces are leading over 1,600 patrols a day and conducting an average of 180 raids a week. It is going to happen. A big deal a downed chopper may be but in all retrospect it could be a LOT worse. I just want to give a big hooah to the men and women of our armed force and those of other nations willing to support the operation. Hell of a job.

[Luxembourger]

Do you have an url to this video?

no I haven t found it on the internet

I saw it on french telveison news 2 months.

THe video is pretty schocking as you see how close the bad guys are to the Airport without being located by US troops.

[Trident-za]

I take it the MIAs have not been found yet? Sorry, I have no access to the international news, can't seem to find anything on the net.....

[Maverick77]

no

theres 3 of them

[Trident-za]

Damn :(

[Luxembourger]

I have no access to the international news, can't seem to find anything on the net.....

use the internet check *******.com

[Trident-za]

I did that just before posting my comment.... didn't see anything about whether the MIAs had been found. Just checked again, same thing.... I thought maybe there had been news earlier in the day, but apparently not.

[Maverick77]

Another good site for Iraq news is here http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

you might want to use that now it has the most info of all sites ive ever seen.

doesnt seem to be bull**** either.

[Merik]

I think the terrain itself in Iraq and Somalia for instance makes flying helicopters more dangerous. In Vietnam we developed a tactic of flying low over the jungle canopy so the VC didn't have time to figure out the direction they were coming from. Maybe 11F5S could elaborate on that. As it is they are in a barren desert environment with no chance of cover and concealment.

NOE, Nap-of-the-Earth. You fly low and fast over the terrain below. I have read stories that pilots would comment later that the enemy had no idea they were coming until they flew right over them but by then it was too late. In Vietnam you either tree-hugged or you flew high enough were small arms and rpg's were ineffective.

[Fox2]

I think the terrain itself in Iraq and Somalia for instance makes flying helicopters more dangerous. In Vietnam we developed a tactic of flying low over the jungle canopy so the VC didn't have time to figure out the direction they were coming from. Maybe 11F5S could elaborate on that. As it is they are in a barren desert environment with no chance of cover and concealment.

NOE, Nap-of-the-Earth. You fly low and fast over the terrain below. I have read stories that pilots would comment later that the enemy had no idea they were coming until they flew right over them but by then it was too late. In Vietnam you either tree-hugged or you flew high enough were small arms and rpg's were ineffective.

Even using nap of the earth flying, in the middle-eastern desert environment, there is almost nil cover. Especially in Iraq, where you may have the occasional dune, but most of the time it's flat. (An exception being parts of the north)

Also there is the fact that many of these airframes are not designed to be used in a desert environment. In the first Gulf War, Apache mechanics quickly realized that the sand simply gets everywhere. They had to essentially wash them all the time, in regular intervals.

Couple that mechanical obstacle with people firing at you, and it can really make keeping the birds up hard. I imagine that if this war were being fought in a temperate climate, we'd probably see much, much fewer crashes.

[Sierra]

thats not good at all. sad :(

[Merik]

I think the terrain itself in Iraq and Somalia for instance makes flying helicopters more dangerous. In Vietnam we developed a tactic of flying low over the jungle canopy so the VC didn't have time to figure out the direction they were coming from. Maybe 11F5S could elaborate on that. As it is they are in a barren desert environment with no chance of cover and concealment.

NOE, Nap-of-the-Earth. You fly low and fast over the terrain below. I have read stories that pilots would comment later that the enemy had no idea they were coming until they flew right over them but by then it was too late. In Vietnam you either tree-hugged or you flew high enough were small arms and rpg's were ineffective.

Even using nap of the earth flying, in the middle-eastern desert environment, there is almost nil cover. Especially in Iraq, where you may have the occasional dune, but most of the time it's flat. (An exception being parts of the north)

Also there is the fact that many of these airframes are not designed to be used in a desert environment. In the first Gulf War, Apache mechanics quickly realized that the sand simply gets everywhere. They had to essentially wash them all the time, in regular intervals.

Couple that mechanical obstacle with people firing at you, and it can really make keeping the birds up hard. I imagine that if this war were being fought in a temperate climate, we'd probably see much, much fewer crashes.

I know, I was just adding to what Joe was talking about in Vietnam. Its very hard to fly low and fast in an urban terrain, but thats no excuse at all to go low and slow using cold war tactics.

[cold0]

There is cleary a shortage of tactics for the US ARMY pilots.
Here it's the post that I have found in www.sftt.org; it was written by a Vietnam War veteran. These are his opinions, not mine, but it's quite interesting, and I have posted it last week in another forum:

Is Army Aviation In A Tailspin?

Why have we lost helicopters needlessly?

We have forgotten how to fly them tactically. In Vietnam the greatest threat we faced in helicopters were AKs and .51 Caliber Machine Guns. RPGs were only a threat in the LZs or on short final or immediately after takeoff. How did we fly to avoid the threat? Either at 1500 feet above the terrain above the threat of AKs and RPGs or right on the deck as fast as we could go. 51s scared the **** out of us. If they were known or suspected we were on the deck. You couldn’t get high enough to get out of range of a .51.

What else did we do? We never hovered unless we absolutely had too. And whenever we were transiting the area between the deck and 1500 feet above the ground we did it a rapidly as possible, high overhead approaches, and maximum climbs. Were we cowboying the aircraft? No!!! We had actually done a risk assessment although we didn’t call it that then and determined that this was the safest way to operate, minimize threat, and accomplish the mission. One final thing that we did whenever possible, we went with gun cover. The hottest part of my tour was when the 1st Cav went into War Zone C north of Tay Ninh Mountain in the spring of ’70. Up there our lifts consisted of 6-8 Slicks, 5 Cobras (one team of Guns and a heavy fire team of ARA), and an OV-10 and whatever fast movers the OV-10 had with him. Cobras accompanied single and two ship Log (resupply) missions during this period. We did the best we could to protect ourselves with flying techniques and gun cover. Were we always successful? No, ask any veteran of the 227th or 229th Assault Helicopter Battalions (particularly Alpha and Charlie 229th). We lost aircraft and we lost people but not because we flew stupid or didn’t have armed support.

Where did we first learn of these techniques? In the four- week tactical phase of flight school at Fort Rucker. Then they were then drummed into us by the Aircraft Commanders we flew with when we arrived in Vietnam and then when we became Aircraft Commanders we drummed it into the new guys. Crew coordination in those days consisted of phrases like “Are you tryin’ to f***’ kill me new guy?” and the like. But we weren’t trying to be mean or offend anyone or be politically incorrect we were being taught and teaching 22 year old aviators like ourselves how to stay alive (and keep their crews and passengers alive).

What has Army Aviation forgotten and how did it happen? First of all they don’t even teach tactics at Fort Rucker anymore. Secondly, in the seventies the Aviation School began teaching two tactically bogus techniques; Nap of the Earth Flying, and Night Vision Goggles. (They also began insisting Aviators put on face paint I guess to hide the fact that there was a crew in the helicopter the bad guys had in their sights while it hovered). Nap of the Earth was taught at tree top level at airspeeds varying from zero to 60 knots with stops to hover (called masking and unmasking). This technique supposedly minimized the threat from SA-7s, ZSU 23s, and other heat seeking or radar controlled anti-aircraft weapons. Great! Problem is though, anyone flying this way is susceptible to being blown out of the sky by a bad guy with a .22 rifle let alone an RPG. NVG training was more of the same, low and slow, mask and unmask, the theory being that if you had the goggles on and the lights out they couldn’t see you. Horse****.

What other factors contributed to Army Aviation’s forgetfulness in the seventies and eighties? The gunships quit covering the slicks. From 1976 when I joined the Guard until now I was involved in one training exercise in which as a slick pilot I was covered by real (not notional) gunships and that was only because a couple of other Vietnam vets in the Guard with me and I organized the combat assault training exercise. By that time half of the pilots in my unit had never flown with gun cover and for instance the girl pilot who was flying with me that day completely freaked out went she saw the guns make a run just prior to our touch down in the LZ. Since the guns no longer covered slicks what were they doing? They were practicing hovering fire, masking and unmasking, so they could shoot Russian tanks at long range. They practiced so much that they forgot running fire.

Two years ago I attended an Army conference and one of the speakers was an active duty warrant officer aviator who had been shot down over Mogadishu about a month prior to the Black Hawk Down debacle. His presentation was about how his aircraft was shot down and the harrowing night he spent with the other pilot (the backseat crewmembers were killed) and awaited rescue which came the next morning in the form of Pakistani Armor. This aviator also discussed his injuries, in particular, the burns he suffered. During his presentation there were a number of spontaneous “Hooahs” from the audience. He stated that his aircraft, a Blackhawk, was at 300 feet above Mogadishu at 70 knots, they were flying goggles, when they got hit with an RPG. He also stated that they were flying a route that they flew nightly in the past. As I listened to this narrative my thoughts were “Are you f***’ crazy? Do you have a death wish?” of course this aviator stated that he wished it would have been darker that night so they would have been undetected and not blown out of the sky. In the photos of the wounds sustained, shown with the presentation, were two serious burns to the thighs where the pilot had his two medal knee boards fastened. He was not going more then 10 nautical miles from Mogadishu International where they staged from. What in the hell did he need the knee boards for?

Over and over it’s happened. Blackhawk Down, hovering over known ground to air (a month after the previous shoot down), Anaconda (we’ll sneak up on ‘em in a Chinook without a prep or gun cover), the 11th Group Apache attack last spring (hovering fire, everyone took hits, two POWs from an apparently flyable aircraft and no downed aircraft support) and now in Iraq.

How did Army Aviation get into this mess? I can see three clear reasons:

1. The Aircrew Training Program
2. The Briefing Statement
3. The Inexperience of the Aircrews and Aircraft Availability and Blade Time Restrictions

The Aircrew Training Program

The aircrew training program looks good on paper but it is not doing what it was designed to do, train aircrews to perform combat missions with minimal risk. The program begins when an aviator or enlisted crewmember arrives at their unit with a commander’s evaluation. The newly assigned aviator/crewmember then goes through three levels of readiness progression until he or she is deemed mission trained. Problem is, their not. This training program takes soldiers, aviators and crewmembers, through various tasks they must perform to standard but there is no emphasis on decision-making or how to conduct a mission to support a supported unit. Therefore, tasks can be performed, i. e. Takeoff to a Hover, Perform NOE Flight, Perform Masking and Unmasking, and a whole laundry list of other minutiae but there is no emphasis on the stuff that matters on the battlefield when decisions must be instantaneous and based on proven tactical principles.

The Briefing Statement

The briefing statement is probably the worst thing that has happened to Army Aviation since Vietnam. Developed by GEN Maxwell (Mad Max) Thurman, a non-aviator, and TRADOC Commander in the eighties this policy requires all aviators to be briefed by a designated briefer before all missions. The briefer, often the unit commander, but many times a non aviator, often has less experience than the crew performing the mission.

Only tasks specifically briefed may be performed by the crew during the mission without a call “home” to do something not on the statement. Flying along at a briefed altitude of say 250 feet at say 90-100 knots the crew sees a coupla bad guys with RPGs off to their right, oughta turn left and hit the deck at high speed immediately—gotta call home-left turns and altitude changes weren’t on the briefing statement.

The Inexperience of the Aircrews and Aircraft Availability and Blade Time Restrictions

Aircraft availability is not good. Many units inflate operational readiness by carrying aircraft with less than ten hours remaining to major maintenance as operationally ready which they technically are, but not for long if there flown, and thus are unusable assets for quality training. The aircrews just don’t have the flight time. Several years ago an internal study showed that the average aviation battalion commander had around 700 hours of flight time including flight school time. I had that much time in the first four months of my Vietnam tour. How is a 700 hour pilot going to conduct a proper tactical briefing. Another problem is the MTOE structure. Warrant Officers leave operational flying positions (except the 160th, Chinooks, and Apaches) upon reaching CW3. They have to quit being line pilots when they have finally acquired most of the experience they need to do the job right.

Are There Solutions

There are solutions.

First, realistic multi-echelon mission scenarios must be incorporated into the aircrew training program. These scenarios must be designed to challenge the aircrew with fluent changing situations that require decision making on the spot. Pilots must make mission decisions based on the mission situation not based on what the briefer said prior to the mission. The goal of this training should be that every briefing statement is very simple: Support the supported unit.

Second, put the lieutenants in flying positions and make them fly. Don’t give them any responsibilities other than being pilots and develop them into aircraft commanders like the warrants. Then when they are captains they will have some experience.

Third, let the warrants stay in line pilot positions right through CW4 in the line units.

Last, seek out Vietnam helicopter pilots and listen to what they have to say about flying in tactical situations, no more low and slow!


Regards,

[martinexsquaddie]

that article makes sense seen an awful lot of US choppers Flying low and slow and on there own on the news.
if theres gunships about you going to think twice about taking a shot.
sneaking up on anybody in a chinook has got to be an unbelivably dumb idea covert and chinook should never be used in the same sentance

[Ichhabe]

I'm not an aviation expert so what tactics they choose I would have to trust that it is the best at the moment.

But it was quite interesting to observe how different the US Airforce and RAF chosed to fly in and out of BAF in Afghanistan.

The Americans came high and Stuka dived in to the air field while the Brits were like sharks. Comming in just above the terrain. Sometimes we just could see their tail fin raising above the burms and houses and tree tops.

Same when taking off. It was like whatcing a space shuttle launch when the Americans took for the skies, while the Brits "sneaked" off like a thief in the night. ;)

Just an observation...

[Royal]

Makes sense to me (although I'm no aviator - in fact I avoid rotary a/c like the plague - I don't much enjoy crashing ;) ).

I'm sure we Brit's could learn a bit from the boys who flew over places like the Oman and Borneo too. From a grunts point of view it does seem to me that we fly low and fast, and we certainly don't hover much, or for long. That may explain some of the difference in casualty rates.

I'm going to be nice to a pilot (there's something I don't do often ;) ) and ask a few questions.

This has got me interested.

[NcDeuce]

Back to the topic...


http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2004/01/26/image595745x.jpg

http://nandotimes.nandomedia.com/ips_rich_content/681-iraq.jpg


BAGHDAD, Iraq (January 26, 9:11 a.m. AST) - U.S. forces aided by Iraqis searched the muddy waters of the Tigris River on Monday in northern Iraq for a soldier and two pilots missing after a helicopter crashed while searching for a patrol boat that had capsized.
Separately, a man was killed when he stepped on a roadside bomb as he got off a bus in a Baghdad suburb on Monday, Iraqi Civil Defense Corps 2nd Lt. Mustafa Tariq said. The explosion left the bus badly mangled and wounded three other passengers, one critically, he said.

Two Iraqi policemen and an Iraqi translator accompanying the American soldiers in the patrol boat were killed in the incident, said a military spokeswoman. But one soldier was still missing while three others survived, she said.

The OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopter, attached to the 101st Airborne Division, crashed in the Tigris in the northern town of Mosul on Sunday evening during a search-and-rescue mission a little more than an hours later, and both crew members were missing. The U.S. military said in a statement that both crashes "were not the result of enemy action" according to initial indications.

"Search efforts are still under way for the three soldiers utilizing all available assets" with the help of Iraqi police and fire department, said the statement received Monday.

In other violence, four Iraqi policemen manning a checkpoint outside Ramadi west of Baghdad were killed Sunday in a drive-by shooting, police Lt. Col. Saad Someir said. He said gunmen also killed three policemen at another checkpoint in Ramadi on Sunday.

Elsewhere, security guards killed an Iraqi in a shootout Sunday after his gang tried to break through a wall of a bank in the northern city of Kirkuk, the U.S. Army said Monday. Two other gang members were wounded. The fourth man carrying an AK-47 rifle fled on foot before U.S. forces secured the area.

The Kiowa Warrior was the fifth U.S. helicopter to crash in Iraq this month. Three others were brought down by enemy fire and a fourth, also a Kiowa Warrior, crashed Friday south of Mosul soon after takeoff, killing both pilots. The reason was not clear.

The three missing service members were with the 101st Airborne Division, according to the statement.

The News Tribune of Tacoma newspaper, which has a reporter embedded with the division, said the helicopter went down on the east bank of the Tigris just across from the populous old part of Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad. When rescuers reached the helicopter, they found no one aboard, the Washington-based newspaper said, quoting unidentified officials.

Witnesses said a U.S. patrol came under rocket propelled grenade fire in Mosul on Monday but there were no casualties.

The crashes add to the mounting losses for American forces as the U.S.-led civil administration prepares to hand over power to a sovereign Iraqi government on July 1.

That plan - which envisages a non-elected government to take over after regional caucuses - has run into stiff opposition from a powerful Shiite Muslim cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani, who wants direct elections.

U.S. officials say the continuing violence and the absence of an electoral roll or a census make it impossible to hold early elections. However, the United States cannot afford to offend the Shiite leadership, because Shiites are estimated to comprise about 60 percent of Iraq's 25 million people.

"The clerics' opinion is the opinion of the Iraqi people in general," Muwafaq al-Rubaei, a Shiite member of the U.S.-installed Governing Council, said Sunday after meeting with al-Sistani.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan is expected to announce this week, possibly Monday, whether to send a team to Iraq to assess if early polls are possible as requested by the United States.

Washington hopes that the involvement of the United Nations will help break the deadlock and satisfy the Shiites.

The Bush administration also must deal with claims by David Kay, the outgoing chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction.

"I don't think they exist," Kay said Sunday on National Public Radio. "The fact that we found so far the weapons do not exist - we've got to deal with that difference and understand why."

Kay's remarks reignited criticism from Democrats in the United States.

"You truly should go to war as a matter of last resort," Democrat presidential candidate John Kerry told CBS' "60 Minutes" in an interview to air Sunday night. "I'm afraid the president rushed to war without a plan to win the peace."

Also Sunday, U.S. troops arrested nearly 50 people in raids in the Sunni Triangle in central Iraq after attacks in the volatile region killed six American soldiers.

The deaths raised to 513 the number of U.S. service members who have died since the United States and its allies launched the Iraq war March 20. Most of the deaths have occurred in the insurgency by Saddam loyalists since President Bush declared an end to major hostilities May 1.

I hope they find something to bring some closure to this. BTW, the DOD identified the two pilots killed in the crash of a different OH-58 Kiowa on Friday as CWO Michael Blaise, 29, of Macon, Mo., and CWO Brian Hazelgrove, 29, of Ft. Rucker, Alabama.

[Argyll]

I take it there is still no word on the crew?

[Trident-za]

The media apparentley isn't too worried - but damn, it seems more and more likely that the pilots are in enemy control. :( This cannot be pleasant for the 2 involved. Serious stuff, for them....

[Argyll]

have they recovered the Chopper?
Maybe a media blanket because of ongoing Ops ;)

[cold0]

An interesting article about the helicopters shooted down in Iraq. Actually half of the downed 'copters were shooted down by MANPADS and half by PRG/Small arms fire. The problem is that Saddam bought 5,000 (from the obsolete SA-7 to the advanced SA-16) and the coalition forces have found only 1,500 missilies. Probably the most part of these 3,500 missile were used during the IGW and IIGW, but its'nt clear the number of these weapons in the hands of Saddam "die-harders" today.

Here the link http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target%20Homepage.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=50&rnd=232.262541014499

Regards,