Katyn.

[Zarathustra]

Why Stalin ordered to kill more than 4400 polish officers during the WWII ?

[Sopot]

He wont to destroy our intelligence class.

[Musashi]

Why Stalin ordered to kill more than 4400 polish officers during the WWII ?
There were 22,000 officers, clerks, border guard soldiers (of all ranks), priests, teachers, policemen... in this group.
Why did he order it? Because he liked to do it and had such customs. The same question would be if you asked why a cobra bit you if you came up to it.

[Collosus]

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/01/spotlight/
google search took 2 sec... ;)

[Smok]

He wont to destroy our intelligence class.

And this is good answer. They (murdered in Katyn, Miednoje and Charkov) were well educated patriots. Diamonds of polish society. So they were biggest enemies for Stalin.

And there were 22000 Poles murdered not 4400 :(

[buttchowder]

Asking why Stalin murdered someone is like asking why a fat kid likes eating cake.

[Kilgor]

Communists in every country have always purged and murdered intelliectual classes, officers, teachers, acedemics. In the SU, the great leap forward, and pol pot.

But yeah, like a fat kid eating cake.

[Catch22]

You see Zarathustra, it's like guys above said: "Zachiystka" (Clean-up) was kind of "standard procedure" for Stalin, sometimes, if maybe not that imminent, it was unevitable - sooner or later to happen. Polish case was more obvious since Stalin was avare that these people murdered in Katyn and few other sites, would form base for resistance movement. Same thing happened after the war with patriotic resistance fighters and partisans - many of them fought and survived Nazis just to end in jail, Sybir or to be executed within few next years of stalinist repressions.

Well history's a bitch.

[Dif]

Katyn is one big mistery. It is still not 100% clear who did it - soviets or germans. Apparently the whistleblowers were germans - part of Gebbels propaganda and first investigation involving exgumation was done by nazy's team. Later after the war most of the investigation team members have reversed theur statements and confirmed that it was done under pressure and life threat from nazys. Soviets have sent their own investigation team and found some papers on the dead bodies dated 1941. If so then Katyn was under german control already. Why did russians not insist on their point of view is still something I don't understand. Maybe it was: "we are the winners, we do not need to explain anything to anybody". Gorbatchev made some statements virtually confirming that massacre was done by soviets, but historians argue his statement.

[Herrmannek]

There is no doubt Russiand did it. AFAIR THere is available a Stalin signed order to execute Poles...

[Icar]

if i remeber correctly Boris Yeltsin admitted that SU is responsible for Katyń

[Dif]

Eltzin? Never trust prostitutes, drug addicts and alcoholics. :-)
Stalin's order? Oh come on, I believe that Rusland is a mess, but sure they know how to keep secrets - what I'm trying to say, that even if russkis did it, there is no way they would present any documents to wide publicity. Everybody keeps saying that it is a sure fact, try to look into the matter without emotions and you will see that there are no "sure facts", but a lot of assumptions based on original - Gebbels version.

[Telnyashka]

if i remeber correctly Boris Yeltsin admitted that SU is responsible for Katyń

its all politics, I bet that drunkard didnt even make an investigation but like the above person says...its still a mystery

[Smok]

There is a note from some some high commie (Molotov if I remember correctly) to Stalin with ask "what to do with these polish soldiers" and there are words made by Stalin himself on that note what to do (kill).
There were plans to send that soldiers somewhere deep into Russia. But Stalin decided to kill them all. Note is a proof - signed by Stalin. So it is clear who did it.

[koutch]

so what do we do now? There are 65 topics on MP.net mentioning Katyn, but there is no clear conclusion.

[Kilgor]

Gorby also admitted to massacre too.

Some of you guys are in denail :|

[koutch]

Gorby was ready to admit, dismantle, destroy anything without thinking of the consequences as long as he would hear westerners chanting his name upon his arrival. But thats another story.

[CMEPTb]

One of my grandmother's med school professors was in the group of medical examinor for the Soviets in Katyn (my family is from Smolensk). He was told by the authorities to blame the whole thing on the Germans even though the murders were clearly commited by the soviets.

[Telnyashka]

There is a note from some some high commie (Molotov if I remember correctly) to Stalin with ask "what to do with these polish soldiers" and there are words made by Stalin himself on that note what to do (kill).
There were plans to send that soldiers somewhere deep into Russia. But Stalin decided to kill them all. Note is a proof - signed by Stalin. So it is clear who did it.

Do you have a source? Im not trying to be a jerk but yes if a source on this letter could be gotten then it would shed some light.

[socom6]

Stalin ordred it. Stalin controlled everything when it came to what the Red Army or NKVD did or did not do. The buck stopped with him, so he's naturally responsible.

[Kilgor]

Gorby was ready to admit, dismantle, destroy anything without thinking of the consequences as long as he would hear westerners chanting his name upon his arrival. But thats another story.

Gorby handed over some of the files and admitted there was a massacre. But ill bet you'll claim this is some sort of fabrication to please the westerners.

:roll:

Do you have a source? Im not trying to be a jerk but yes if a source on this letter could be gotten then it would shed some light.

There is plenty of reliable sources on the web showing photos and documents. Google is your friend.

[PeterG]

Read "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar" by Simon Sebag Montefiore.It is a fabulous book.It covers the fate of those poor poles in some detail.When the Polish government in exile later in the war demanded to know where their thousands of officers were, Molotov claimed that they ALL had escaped to Mongolia!

[Smok]

There is a note from some some high commie (Molotov if I remember correctly) to Stalin with ask "what to do with these polish soldiers" and there are words made by Stalin himself on that note what to do (kill).
There were plans to send that soldiers somewhere deep into Russia. But Stalin decided to kill them all. Note is a proof - signed by Stalin. So it is clear who did it.

Do you have a source? Im not trying to be a jerk but yes if a source on this letter could be gotten then it would shed some light.

I will try to find it for You. I think that I have it in some book. I will scan it and post if I find it.

[Amethystfretchen]

Look here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79170&start=0

[Smok]

Look here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79170&start=0

Thank You very much. I also found it here:
http://www.polonica.net/KATYN_zbrodnia_ludobojstwa.htm
http://www.polonica.net/imag/notatkaBerii.jpg
http://www.polonica.net/imag/notatkaBerii2.jpg

Made by Beria who suggests shoot all of them. Signed by Stalin himself.

Now it is clear.

[Dif]

I still doubt it. As some people mention here - it is all politics. Eltzin and Gorbi never handed any files to anybody - I have called the guy from Moscow state university today, who has confirmed to me that all documents related to Katyn are still classified (he has tried to get access to those number of times on my request, since it was my diploma work at Leiden University). Plus, I doubt that the fate of poor poles was of any importance/relevance to these 2 politicians. In fact I believe that it is more convenient for Poland to blame Russia then Germany. Seems that russians and polish are nearly in the state of cold war and that explains a lot.

[Smok]

Dif. Just try to think. Why do Russia keeps documents as secret? Will Russia ever keep proofs of their innocence as secret? If Russia won't be gulity they will show these papers today and say "Look! These bloody Poles were accused us falsely. Poles are liars!"

[Taekwondo]

Katyn was done by the soviets, there is no doubt of that. The Polish buried there had clothing and such to prove it that they had been shot during the Soviet occupation for instance. And lots of other proof, including the perestroika and glasnost "confessions". After the Poles the camp was supposed to hold the Finnish intelligentziya, and especially reservist officers and nco's. The camp was even expanded for that purpose.

[Marmot1]

Katyn is one big mistery. It is still not 100% clear who did it - soviets or germans. Apparently the whistleblowers were germans - part of Gebbels propaganda and first investigation involving exgumation was done by nazy's team. Later after the war most of the investigation team members have reversed theur statements and confirmed that it was done under pressure and life threat from nazys. Soviets have sent their own investigation team and found some papers on the dead bodies dated 1941. If so then Katyn was under german control already. Why did russians not insist on their point of view is still something I don't understand. Maybe it was: "we are the winners, we do not need to explain anything to anybody". Gorbatchev made some statements virtually confirming that massacre was done by soviets, but historians argue his statement.

The only mystery is where is rest of bodies, so far only ca. 9000 were found rest is still missing probably burried somehwere in russia or ukraine. Soviets did it and they admited it even russian archoves contain order to kill them signed by stalin.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/katyn.jpg

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmwfront.jpg

Here is translation of Stalin;s order.


Stalin's order for the KATYN FOREST MASSACRE


Top Secret

5 March 1940

USSR People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs

Moscow

To Comrade Stalin

A large number of former officers of the Polish Army, employees of the Polish Police and intelligence services, members of Polish nationalist, counter-revolutionary parties, members of exposed counter-revolutionary resistance groups, escapees and others, all of them sworn enemies of Soviet authority full of hatred for the Soviet system, are currently being held in prisoner-of-war camps of the USSR NKVD and in prisons in the western provinces of Ukraine and Belarus.

The military and police officers in the camps are attempting to continue their counter-revolutionary activities and are carrying out anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is waiting only for his release in order to start actively struggling against Soviet authority.

The organs of the NKVD in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus have uncovered a number of counter-revolutionary rebel organisations.

Former officers of the Polish Army and police as well as gendarmes have played an active role in all of these organisations.

Amongst the detained escapees and violators of the state borders a considerable number of people have been identified as belonging to counter-revolutionary espionage and resistance organisations.

14,736 former officers, government officials, landowners, police, gendarmes, prison guards, settlers in the border regions and intelligence officers [more than 97% are Poles] are being held in prisoner-of-war camps. This number includes soldiers and junior officers.

Included are:

generals, colonels and lieutenant colonels- 295
majors and captains- 2080
lieutenants, second lieutenants and ensigns- 6049
officers and juniors of the police, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence officers- 1030
rank and file police officers, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence personnel- 5138
government officials, land owners, priests, settlers in border regions- 144
18,632 detained people are being kept in the western region of the Ukraine and Belarus
[10,685 are Poles]

They include:

former officers- 1207
former intelligence officers of the police and gendarmerie 5141
spies and saboteurs- 347
former land owners, factory owners and government officials- 465
members of various counter-revolutionary and resistance organisations and other counter-revolutionary elements- 5345
escapees- 6127


In view of the fact that all are hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority, the USSR NKVD considers it necessary:

[1] To instruct the USSR NKVD that it should try before special tribunals:

[a] the cases of the 14,700 former Polish officers, government officials,land owners, police officers, intelligence officers, gendarmes, settlers in the border regions and prison guards being held in prisoner-of-war camps;

[ b] together with the cases of 11,000 members of various counter-revolutionary organisations of spies and saboteurs, former land owners, factory owners, former Polish officers, government officials, and escapees who have been arrested and are being held in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus and apply to them the supreme penalty: shooting.

[2] Examination of the cases is to be carried out without summoning those detained and without bringing charges, the statements concerning the conclusion of the investigation and the final verdict should be as follows:

[a] for persons being held in prisoner-of-war camps, in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the USSR NKVD;

[ b] for arrested personnel in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and the NKVD of the Belarus SSR.

[3] The cases should be examined and the verdict pronounced by a three person tribunal consisting of comrades Merkulov, Kobulov and Bashtakov.

People's Commissar for the Internal Affairs of the USSR

L Beria

[Signed by: Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov, Mikoyan, Kalinin and Kaganovich]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my translation of the order which I have seen over the years in various places. I first saw part of the order set out in a poster at Ymok during the dedication ceremony at the Polish cemetery in 1995.
I have a complete copy of the order in a Russian language book called "Russia in the 20th century-Documents-Katyn, prisoners of the undeclared war", which was nominally edited by A N Yakovlev and published in Moscow in 1997. isbn 5-89511-002-9. The page reference is 384, the document reference is No 216. The originals of the various documents are reproduced, with typewritten copies of the texts alongside.

Unfortunately this book stops with Stalin's order in 1940, and, I believe, leaves a wide range of Soviet/Russian documents on many events associated with Katyn since then still unavailable.

This tag is for a very good Russian language site about Katyn, which includes Russian documents on Katyn.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a long time it was believed in the West that about 4243 Poles were shot at Katyn; 4143 that the Nazis exhumed from seven graves in 1943, and a further 100 allowed for in the "eighth" grave that the Nazis opened but did not exhume.
In his 1993 book "Memoirs of a prisoner of war of Kozielsk", at page 157 Rev Msgr Zdzislaw Peszkowski gives a figure of 4403 Poles shot at Katyn from a Soviet document he was shown dated 14 May 1940.

Reports of the new memorial dedicated to the Polish dead at Katyn on 28 July 2000 give the number named on the wall plaques as 4,421.

Karta [Go through Karta-Programmy to Karty-Index Represjonowanych- and then select the site you require.] lists 4410 for the dead at Katyn, 3739 for those at Kharkov and 6314 for those shot at Tver.

Although the total of the Stalin order is given as 25,700, I understand that a 3rd March, 1959 KGB report by KGB head Aleksandr Shelepin, gives the figure of 21,857 as the number of Poles actually shot as a result of this order.


4,421 in the Katyn Forest (Smolensk region)
3,820 in the Starobelsk camp (near Kharkov)
6,311 in the Ostashkovo camp (Kalinin region)
7,305 in other camps and prisons in western Ukraine and western Belorussia

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/beria.html

[koutch]

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/katyn.jpg
Thats a nazi poster i beleive, it was also crucial to prove for them that the Poles were muredred by the communist Jews (look at the caricatural portrait of one of the soviet officers).
But i still don't get where this is going, are you guys trying to proclaim your holocaust and make an industry out of it?

[James]

This is unbelievable... talk about "revisionist" history...

Arguing that the Soviets didn't murder all those Poles is like saying the Germans didn't really build death camps and exterminate millions of people.

[WolverineBlue]

Stalin and the rest of the freak shows that ran the USSR were murderers.

[koutch]

This is unbelievable... talk about "revisionist" history...

Arguing that the Soviets didn't murder all those Poles is like saying the Germans didn't really build death camps and exterminate millions of people.

I'm not arguing, i'm asking about the goals and motives behind such topics. Because if we all know that the soviets did it, what exactly is the problem and what would be the solution?

[Drako]

This is unbelievable... talk about "revisionist" history...

Arguing that the Soviets didn't murder all those Poles is like saying the Germans didn't really build death camps and exterminate millions of people.

I'm not arguing, i'm asking about the goals and motives behind such topics. Because if we all know that the soviets did it, what exactly is the problem and what would be the solution?

Agreed. It's like starting a topic "what happened in Aushwitz?" - pointless.

[Marmot1]

This is unbelievable... talk about "revisionist" history...

Arguing that the Soviets didn't murder all those Poles is like saying the Germans didn't really build death camps and exterminate millions of people.

I'm not arguing, i'm asking about the goals and motives behind such topics. Because if we all know that the soviets did it, what exactly is the problem and what would be the solution?

Agreed. It's like starting a topic "what happened in Aushwitz?" - pointless.

PROBLEM IS EVERYBODY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN AUSWITZ. AND AS IT WAS PROVEN ABOVE IN THIS TOPIC NOT EVERYBODY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN KATYN, COMMUNIST LIES ARE STILL ALIVE DESPITE SOVIET UNION COLLAPESED 15 YEARS AGO.

[Drako]

This is unbelievable... talk about "revisionist" history...

Arguing that the Soviets didn't murder all those Poles is like saying the Germans didn't really build death camps and exterminate millions of people.

I'm not arguing, i'm asking about the goals and motives behind such topics. Because if we all know that the soviets did it, what exactly is the problem and what would be the solution?

Agreed. It's like starting a topic "what happened in Aushwitz?" - pointless.

PROBLEM IS EVERYBODY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN AUSWITZ. AND AS IT WAS PROVEN ABOVE IN THIS TOPIC NOT EVERYBODY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN KATYN, COMMUNIST LIES ARE STILL ALIVE DESPITE SOVIET UNION COLLAPESED 15 YEARS AGO.

You should understand that people don't give a **** about it. They will always say "what do 22000 Poles mean when compared to millions of dead Russians?". No matter how we will try, for most only Jews were being killed in death camps, enigma was decripted by Brits, Soviets rescued eastern Poland in '39 and Katyn is just some polish mistification. Oh, and we are whiners and antisemites, we hate Russians, steal german cars and our girls are sluts. I think that quite summs what is going to be posted here on next few pages. Sorry if I forgot anything.

[Igor01]

You should understand that people don't give a **** about it. They will always say "what do 22000 Poles mean when compared to millions of dead Russians?". No matter how we will try, for most only Jews were being killed in death camps, enigma was decripted by Brits, Soviets rescued eastern Poland in '39 and Katyn is just some polish mistification. Oh, and we are whiners and antisemites, we hate Russians, steal german cars and our girls are sluts. I think that quite summs what is going to be posted here on next few pages. Sorry if I forgot anything.

You forgot "America's lap-dog" and "America's Trojan Horse in EU". There's a few more but these two are my personal favourites :)

Anyway, stereotyping is unfair but it's a realitiy of life. Just learn to accept that despite all the talk about united Europe the West will always see you as underperforming, lazy and generally in need of enlighted guidance. They perceive our Slavic rationalism and reluctance to do stuff we don't really want as lazyness and our disregard of The Law as the supreme authority in favour of The Consciense as a mild retardation. Our preference for using common sense in everyday life instead of externalized political correctness comes across as rudeness to them.

Either way, neither you guys nor us will ever be treated by the West as equals. Russians will always be the evil irrational Ork empire hellbent on taking over the world and getting drunk (and not necessarily in that particular order), and you will enojoy the equally questionable reputation. As far as the Russians' attitude towards Poles - it's generally favourable, we know to separate the people from the politics of the country. We do get annoyed by some unwise political acts that seem to have support among Poles (like the naming of one of Warsaw's streets after Dudaev or pretending to know what they were doing during Ukrainian "orange revolution") but so what, we've had a lot of very painful memories on both sides throughout our history. Polititians come and go and our contries and nations remain. Like it or not, we're neighbours (currently separated by Ukraine but that might not last forever).

Just continue to use your own head and find comfort in the fact for the most part your critics and haters (as well as ours) don't know what the hell they are talking about.

[Herrmannek]

That naiming of the street was broadly prostested here too, but you can't do **** about that we have democracy after all :)

[Zarathustra]

our girls are sluts.

I know where I'm gonna go for my next vacations then.

[Catch22]

Feel yourself invited Smokey ;) But about slut part - there are better countries around to try your chances...

[Atlantic Friend]

Katyn is one big mistery. It is still not 100% clear who did it - soviets or germans. Apparently the whistleblowers were germans - part of Gebbels propaganda and first investigation involving exgumation was done by nazy's team. Later after the war most of the investigation team members have reversed theur statements and confirmed that it was done under pressure and life threat from nazys. Soviets have sent their own investigation team and found some papers on the dead bodies dated 1941. If so then Katyn was under german control already. Why did russians not insist on their point of view is still something I don't understand. Maybe it was: "we are the winners, we do not need to explain anything to anybody". Gorbatchev made some statements virtually confirming that massacre was done by soviets, but historians argue his statement.

From what I read about Katyn, there is little doubt over who murdered the Polish officers.

First, keep in mind that Poland had attacked the Soviet Union in 1920, and had taken a large chunk of Soviet territory before the Red Army, led by none other than Mikhail Tukhatchevsky, rolled them back and advanced into Poland itself, from where it was repulsed by Polish forces assisted by Western military missions.

The bad blood between Russia and Poland (once a captive nation divided by Russia and Germany) certainly help cement the German-Soviet "friendship" that began in the mid-1920s to end in 1941. As we all know, this association bore a very special fruit, the Nazi-Soviet Pact of August, 1939 which secret clauses stated that Poland would be once again divided between its two neighbors.

In september the 1st, 1939, under the false pretense of a fabricated border incident, Poland is invaded from the west and from the north by German troops. Almost immediately, the Soviet Union, claiming that the militray operations threatened Russian minorities in Poland, sent the Red Army into Poland from the East, towards Brest-Litovsk. In the process, many Polish soldiers, either deployed defensively against Russia or caught in full retreat before the German onslaught, were captured by the Red Army.

The Polish officers which were found dead in Katyn were part of these troops. They were separated from their men, had their hands tied behind their backs, and were shot at the base of the head. AFAIK, the bullets found in their bodies were fired from Russian rifles. History forgets them until more than a year later.

In June, 1941, after some quarreling over spheres of influence, Nazi Germany betrays her accomplice in crime and invades the Soviet Union from its bases of what was once Western Poland and is then the rump state of the General Government. Among the first zones occupied by the German troops is the area surrounding Katyn. There, the German troops end up finding a mass grave and demand instructions from Berlin.

At that time, Berlin is eager to present operation Barbarossa as the clash of Western Civilization against Eastern Barbary, and the Germans organize visits from the International Red Cross to show how "monstrous" the Russians are and how "noble" is the German fight against them.

So, why did the Russians kill the Polish officers at Katyn ? Basically because they were an elite whose loyalty would always go to Poland and not to Soviet Russia. Killing the national elites has always been a tool of invaders to make sure conquered countries would live in their shadow, without national leaders, scientists or thinkers.

[Smok]

From what I read about Katyn, there is little doubt over who murdered the Polish officers.

First, keep in mind that Poland had attacked the Soviet Union in 1920, and had taken a large chunk of Soviet territory before the Red Army, led by none other than Mikhail Tukhatchevsky, rolled them back and advanced into Poland itself, from where it was repulsed by Polish forces assisted by Western military missions.



You are wrong. War started ad very end of 1918. Russian troops attacked Poland. Soviets wanted to go through Poland to Germany and make european revolution.
The other point was that new russian goverment canceled acts of spliting Poland (from XVIII century) and "gave" Poland freedom. But Russian troops attacked us! So You can see what means law in Soviet Russia.

[Taekwondo]

Smok,
same happened with Finland - Lenin "gave" Finland its independence only to have it taken back through a bolsevik supported red revolution. But left-wing activists still consider this the definite proof that Lenin was a great humanitarian...

[Igor01]

War started ad very end of 1918. Russian troops attacked Poland. Soviets wanted to go through Poland to Germany and make european revolution.
The other point was that new russian goverment canceled acts of spliting Poland (from XVIII century) and "gave" Poland freedom. But Russian troops attacked us! So You can see what means law in Soviet Russia.

1918? I assume you are referring to the Red Army advance in Belorussia and Lithuania, there was a note by the Polish government to the Soviets regarding the Soviet advance on the "territories inhabited by the Polish nation". Neither Belorussia nor Lithuania were under Polish rule then so this cannot be considered as "attacking Poland". Poland at that time had problems with the Chechoslovaks who occupied Teschen and dealt a blow to Polish army in Galicia.

AFAIK there was no direct clashes between Polish and Soviet troops until early 1920 when the Poles and Lithuanians took Daugavpils in Lithuania from the Soviets. The actual Soviet-Polish war began in April of 1920 when Polish army invaded Ukraine.

It's only when the Soviets push Poles back and approach Warsaw that Bolsheviks hope that a "proletarian" revolution might spread to Germany, but this definetely was not in 1918 and the Soviets were not the ones who started that war.

It should also be noted that Poland later that year (October of 1920) annexed Wilno which was under the Lithuanian rule. In July of the same year Poland signed a treaty with Chechoslovakia affriming the status of the Teschen (which was quite readily thrown away in 1938).

[Smok]

1918? I assume you are referring to the Red Army advance in Belorussia and Lithuania, there was a note by the Polish government to the Soviets regarding the Soviet advance on the "territories inhabited by the Polish nation". Neither Belorussia nor Lithuania were under Polish rule then so this cannot be considered as "attacking Poland". Poland at that time had problems with the Chechoslovaks who occupied Teschen and dealt a blow to Polish army in Galicia.


These teritories weren't under Russian rule but were inhabited by Poles and Polish armed forces (mainly selfdefence units because we didn't have our army yet) were present there. Also because your goverment canceled act of spliting Poland teritories which were Polish before spliting became our again.


AFAIK there was no direct clashes between Polish and Soviet troops until early 1920 when the Poles and Lithuanians took Daugavpils in Lithuania from the Soviets. The actual Soviet-Polish war began in April of 1920 when Polish army invaded Ukraine.


Oh! :cantbeli: Ever heard about battles at Minsk or Wilno in 1919? Or about battle at Mosty (14.II.1919) or Maniewicze?
Also ever heard about Soviet offensive on 10.III.1920?
Read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War


It's only when the Soviets push Poles back and approach Warsaw that Bolsheviks hope that a "proletarian" revolution might spread to Germany, but this definetely was not in 1918 and the Soviets were not the ones who started that war.

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War
On November 18, 1918, Vladimir Lenin issued orders to the Red Army to begin movement westwards that would follow the withdrawing German troops of Oberkommando Ostfront (Ober-Ost). The basic aim of the operation was to drive through eastern and central Europe, institute Soviet governments in the newly independent countries of that region and support communist revolutions in Germany and Austria-Hungary. At the start of 1919, fighting broke out almost by accident and without any orders from the respective governments, when self-organized Polish military units in Wilno (Samooborona: Wilno Self-defence) clashed with Bolshevik forces, each trying to secure the territories for its own incipient government. Eventually the more organized Soviet forces quelled most of the resistance and drove the remaining Polish forces west.



It should also be noted that Poland later that year (October of 1920) annexed Wilno which was under the Lithuanian rule. In July of the same year Poland signed a treaty with Chechoslovakia affriming the status of the Teschen (which was quite readily thrown away in 1938).

Yes. We captured Wilno after Lithuania attacked us (they thought that Bolsheviks will destroy us).

Please!! Read something about history. You know only communists propaganda! Learn somethina about real events not soviet version of history!

[perdurabo]

Either way, neither you guys nor us will ever be treated by the West as equals. Russians will always be the evil irrational Ork empire hellbent on taking over the world and getting drunk (and not necessarily in that particular order), and you will enojoy the equally questionable reputation. As far as the Russians' attitude towards Poles - it's generally favourable, we know to separate the people from the politics of the country. We do get annoyed by some unwise political acts that seem to have support among Poles (like the naming of one of Warsaw's streets after Dudaev or pretending to know what they were doing during Ukrainian "orange revolution") but so what, we've had a lot of very painful memories on both sides throughout our history. Polititians come and go and our contries and nations remain. Like it or not, we're neighbours (currently separated by Ukraine but that might not last forever).

Just continue to use your own head and find comfort in the fact for the most part your critics and haters (as well as ours) don't know what the hell they are talking about.
Same on ours side :D :hug:

First, keep in mind that Poland had attacked the Soviet Union in 1920, and had taken a large chunk of Soviet territory before the Red Army, led by none other than Mikhail Tukhatchevsky, rolled them back and advanced into Poland itself, from where it was repulsed by Polish forces assisted by Western military missions.

First we should keep in mind that in XV to XVIII century there was country caled Republic of Two Nations or Polish Lithuanian Commonwelth
http://www.allempires.com/empires/polish_lit_full/polish_lit1.htm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Rzeczpospolita.png
As for Polish-Soviet war of 1920 check here:
http://home.golden.net/~medals/1918-1921war.html

[Musashi]

AFAIK there was no direct clashes between Polish and Soviet troops until early 1920 when the Poles and Lithuanians took Daugavpils in Lithuania from the Soviets. The actual Soviet-Polish war began in April of 1920 when Polish army invaded Ukraine.


Oh! :cantbeli: Ever heard about battles at Minsk or Wilno in 1919? Or about battle at Mosty (14.II.1919) or Maniewicze?
Also ever heard about Soviet offensive on 10.III.1920?
Read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War
Negative. Look at this map from December 1919.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/PBW_December_1919.png/783px-PBW_December_1919.png

Besides Daugavpils is located in Latvia and we cooperated with the Latvians to free this city. We never cooperated with Lithuanians during that war.
It should also be noted that Poland later that year (October of 1920) annexed Wilno which was under the Lithuanian rule. In July of the same year Poland signed a treaty with Chechoslovakia affriming the status of the Teschen (which was quite readily thrown away in 1938).Yes. We captured Wilno after Lithuania attacked us (they thought that Bolsheviks will destroy us).
First of all, I don't approve seizing Vilnius/Wilno by Poland, but the fact is, just only 3% of its inhabitants were Lithuanians. 80% of them were Poles, 15% Jews, 3% Lithuanians, 2% others.

[Smok]

Is my post wrong? Or maybe word "negative" is for Igor?

[Igor01]

Besides Daugavpils is located in Latvia and we cooperated with the Latvians to free this city. We never cooperated with Lithuanians during that war.

Thanks for correcting that Krzysiek, it was indeed a [mental] typo on both accounts.


First of all, I don't approve seizing Vilnius/Wilno by Poland, but the fact is, just only 3% of its inhabitants were Lithuanians. 80% of them were Poles, 15% Jews, 3% Lithuanians, 2% others.

True enough. I am sure Pilsudski had the best interest of Poland in mind when he ordered Gen. Zeligowski to seize Wilno. But it was an annexation nonetheless and even though Lithuanians couldn't do much about they never quite accepted it.

[Igor01]

Is my post wrong? Or maybe word "negative" is for Igor?

He's referring to my statement which obviously an error (see my post above).

[Musashi]

Sorry to say, but I read a book about the Soviet crimes in Poland in 1939-1945 and according to it about 30,000 Polish PoWs were murdered on the way to PoW camps, in NKVD prisons, etc. just in 1939. This number is far bigger, than the number of Polish PoWs murdered by Germans during this campaign. Additionally the methods of SS and Gestapo comparing to NKVD's as well as ordinary Soviet soldiers' methods seem to be very unsophisticated and "amateurish".

[00]

Eltzin? Never trust prostitutes, drug addicts and alcoholics. :-)
Stalin's order? Oh come on, I believe that Rusland is a mess, but sure they know how to keep secrets - what I'm trying to say, that even if russkis did it, there is no way they would present any documents to wide publicity. Everybody keeps saying that it is a sure fact, try to look into the matter without emotions and you will see that there are no "sure facts", but a lot of assumptions based on original - Gebbels version.

Wrong.
A lot of documents were saved in the USSR. Another example: Following the Yalta conference, the 3 leaders secretely agreed which states they would control, with what level of influence (ie: 90% of communist influence in such state, 50/50 in that other one, etc...) Well, Roosevelt burnt the note, but Stalin saved it and its how we know that such agreements were made.

[koutch]

there is a memorial complex on the outskirts of Smolensk
http://admin.smolensk.ru/history/katyn/map.htm

[atlantos41]

AFAIK there was no direct clashes between Polish and Soviet troops until early 1920 when the Poles and Lithuanians took Daugavpils in Lithuania from the Soviets. The actual Soviet-Polish war began in April of 1920 when Polish army invaded Ukraine.


Oh! :cantbeli: Ever heard about battles at Minsk or Wilno in 1919? Or about battle at Mosty (14.II.1919) or Maniewicze?
Also ever heard about Soviet offensive on 10.III.1920?
Read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War
Negative. Look at this map from December 1919.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/PBW_December_1919.png/783px-PBW_December_1919.png

Besides Daugavpils is located in Latvia and we cooperated with the Latvians to free this city. We never cooperated with Lithuanians during that war.
It should also be noted that Poland later that year (October of 1920) annexed Wilno which was under the Lithuanian rule. In July of the same year Poland signed a treaty with Chechoslovakia affriming the status of the Teschen (which was quite readily thrown away in 1938).Yes. We captured Wilno after Lithuania attacked us (they thought that Bolsheviks will destroy us).
First of all, I don't approve seizing Vilnius/Wilno by Poland, but the fact is, just only 3% of its inhabitants were Lithuanians. 80% of them were Poles, 15% Jews, 3% Lithuanians, 2% others.

And what about belarussians in Wilno? I have a litle different numbers for 1897 in Wilno: jews - 40%, polish - 31%, russians and belarussians - 24%, Lithuanians - 2%. So I see typical methods of polish imperialists - lower number of jews and count all slavic (russians, belarussians, ukranian, etc.) as polish ;) .

Imho all you guys tak in strange terms. At that times (1918-1921) there were no such counties like Russia, Polland, it was disorganised territory where Russian Empire was before. And on this territory were some movements linked by common interest (like bolsheviks movement for establishment of communistic state, White movement for reestablishment of Russian Empire, Pilsudski movement for establishment of independent Poland and many others). And all these movements were in struggle with each other or sometimes in union against others (like Pilsudski helped bolsheviks in their struggle with white movement because bolsheviks wanted to establish new state and white movement wanted to establish previous Russian Empire where Poland was just a province). So imho it's not correct to talks in terms 'war between Poland and Bolshevik Russia', it's better to say 'war/struggle between Pilsudski and bolsheviks'.

But we can talk about 'war between one county and another' after establishment of diplomatic relations, and in case Poland and USSR (USSR, not Russia, because there were no country like Russia between 1920-1991) the treaty about dividing territory was signed in 1921. So in 1939 was war between Poland and USSR, but in 1920 was struggle between Pilsudski movement and bolshvik movement. And all this problem because history writen by winners (and all they speak 'Only we was this times', but actualy there were many others).

Just allow me to tell you about Belarus nationalistic view of history. On 25.03.1918 in Minsk belarussians declared establishment of independent belarussian state. Then Poland invaded independent Belarus and in 1920 Russia invaded Belarus. So from belarussian nationalistic point of view both Poland and Russia are bad occupants :). And from russian or polish nationalistic point of view they wanted to get their (really funny - it's mine no matter other think) teritory back. But If belarussians would succesfull in establishing their state with Wilno in it's borders, they could say: 'Oh, we see no poles in Wilno - only polish-speaking belarussians :) ' - just like poles now say.

[Telnyashka]

Russian Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov declared that the massacre was not a genocide - a war crime - or a crime against humanity and that there is absolutely no basis to talk about this in judicial terms

What is the legal stand point? I dont understand what they mean by there is no basis to talk about this in judicial terms...what do they mean?

[Drako]

Russian Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov declared that the massacre was not a genocide - a war crime - or a crime against humanity and that there is absolutely no basis to talk about this in judicial terms

What is the legal stand point? I dont understand what they mean by there is no basis to talk about this in judicial terms...what do they mean?

It means for them it was a war crime, like shooting an unarmed enemy soldier, and for them there's no basis for further investigation and they won't provide us with any documents, which are still classified after 60 years and woud have to be declassified if Katyn was recognized as genocide, but could point at people responsible for it.

[Marmot1]

AFAIK there was no direct clashes between Polish and Soviet troops until early 1920 when the Poles and Lithuanians took Daugavpils in Lithuania from the Soviets. The actual Soviet-Polish war began in April of 1920 when Polish army invaded Ukraine.


Oh! :cantbeli: Ever heard about battles at Minsk or Wilno in 1919? Or about battle at Mosty (14.II.1919) or Maniewicze?
Also ever heard about Soviet offensive on 10.III.1920?
Read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War
Negative. Look at this map from December 1919.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/PBW_December_1919.png/783px-PBW_December_1919.png

Besides Daugavpils is located in Latvia and we cooperated with the Latvians to free this city. We never cooperated with Lithuanians during that war.
It should also be noted that Poland later that year (October of 1920) annexed Wilno which was under the Lithuanian rule. In July of the same year Poland signed a treaty with Chechoslovakia affriming the status of the Teschen (which was quite readily thrown away in 1938).Yes. We captured Wilno after Lithuania attacked us (they thought that Bolsheviks will destroy us).
First of all, I don't approve seizing Vilnius/Wilno by Poland, but the fact is, just only 3% of its inhabitants were Lithuanians. 80% of them were Poles, 15% Jews, 3% Lithuanians, 2% others.

And what about belarussians in Wilno? I have a litle different numbers for 1897 in Wilno: jews - 40%, polish - 31%, russians and belarussians - 24%, Lithuanians - 2%. So I see typical methods of polish imperialists - lower number of jews and count all slavic (russians, belarussians, ukranian, etc.) as polish ;) .

Imho all you guys tak in strange terms. At that times (1918-1921) there were no such counties like Russia, Polland, it was disorganised territory where Russian Empire was before. And on this territory were some movements linked by common interest (like bolsheviks movement for establishment of communistic state, White movement for reestablishment of Russian Empire, Pilsudski movement for establishment of independent Poland and many others). And all these movements were in struggle with each other or sometimes in union against others (like Pilsudski helped bolsheviks in their struggle with white movement because bolsheviks wanted to establish new state and white movement wanted to establish previous Russian Empire where Poland was just a province). So imho it's not correct to talks in terms 'war between Poland and Bolshevik Russia', it's better to say 'war/struggle between Pilsudski and bolsheviks'.

But we can talk about 'war between one county and another' after establishment of diplomatic relations, and in case Poland and USSR (USSR, not Russia, because there were no country like Russia between 1920-1991) the treaty about dividing territory was signed in 1921. So in 1939 was war between Poland and USSR, but in 1920 was struggle between Pilsudski movement and bolshvik movement. And all this problem because history writen by winners (and all they speak 'Only we was this times', but actualy there were many others).

Just allow me to tell you about Belarus nationalistic view of history. On 25.03.1918 in Minsk belarussians declared establishment of independent belarussian state. Then Poland invaded independent Belarus and in 1920 Russia invaded Belarus. So from belarussian nationalistic point of view both Poland and Russia are bad occupants :). And from russian or polish nationalistic point of view they wanted to get their (really funny - it's mine no matter other think) teritory back. But If belarussians would succesfull in establishing their state with Wilno in it's borders, they could say: 'Oh, we see no poles in Wilno - only polish-speaking belarussians :) ' - just like poles now say.

to clarify it little Pilsudski cooperated with whites not with bolsheviks...

(sorry don't have time now to answer to rest of your points, maybe later)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Imho all you guys tak in strange terms. At that times (1918-1921) there were no such counties like Russia, Polland, it was disorganised territory where Russian Empire was before. And on this territory were some movements linked by common interest (like bolsheviks movement for establishment of communistic state, White movement for reestablishment of Russian Empire, Pilsudski movement for establishment of independent Poland and many others).

Exactly my thoughts ;)

[Igor01]

to clarify it little Pilsudski cooperated with whites not with bolsheviks...

To simply say that Poles "cooperated" with Whites would not describe the real complexity of the matter, the problem for the Poles was that Whites stood on the platform of "United and Undividable Russia", the concept that didn't leave any room for an independent Poland. Whites' victory in the Russian civil war would have spelled an immense problem for Poland since most certainly the Whites would have tried to get her back into the Russian orbit.

[Musashi]

to clarify it little Pilsudski cooperated with whites not with bolsheviks...

To simply say that Poles "cooperated" with Whites would not describe the real complexity of the matter, the problem for the Poles was that Whites stood on the platform of "United and Undividable Russia", the concept that didn't leave any room for an independent Poland. Whites' victory in the Russian civil war would have spelled an immense problem for Poland since most certainly the Whites would have tried to get her back into the Russian orbit.
I agree. According to Pilsudski White Russia would have been more dangerous than Red one. Therefore he stopped the offensive after seizing Kiev in May 1920 to give the Reds the time to defeat the Whites. You will learn about it in every Polish history textbook.

[Robroy]

Why Stalin ordered to kill more than 4400 polish officers during the WWII ?

Because Stalin was the Allie of Hitler, and all to had decided to reduce in slavery the heroic Polish Nation! Stalid did the same as Hitler.
Because a Stalin can never act in a different way, he exterminated lot of soviet citizens too.
He was Georgian, but was one of the worst persecutors of Georgians. Because Russia is unable to behave in a different way that is not a Holocaust....
Question of Historical attitudes....

[Robroy]

Katyn is one big mistery. It is still not 100% clear who did it - soviets or germans. Apparently the whistleblowers were germans - part of Gebbels propaganda and first investigation involving exgumation was done by nazy's team. Later after the war most of the investigation team members have reversed theur statements and confirmed that it was done under pressure and life threat from nazys. Soviets have sent their own investigation team and found some papers on the dead bodies dated 1941. If so then Katyn was under german control already. Why did russians not insist on their point of view is still something I don't understand. Maybe it was: "we are the winners, we do not need to explain anything to anybody". Gorbatchev made some statements virtually confirming that massacre was done by soviets, but historians argue his statement.

...the real problem are the so called "revisionists of History"....

[Robroy]

You forgot "America's lap-dog" and "America's Trojan Horse in EU". There's a few more but these two are my personal favourites :)

Anyway, stereotyping is unfair but it's a realitiy of life. Just learn to accept that despite all the talk about united Europe the West will always see you as underperforming, lazy and generally in need of enlighted guidance. They perceive our Slavic rationalism and reluctance to do stuff we don't really want as lazyness and our disregard of The Law as the supreme authority in favour of The Consciense as a mild retardation. Our preference for using common sense in everyday life instead of externalized political correctness comes across as rudeness to them.

Either way, neither you guys nor us will ever be treated by the West as equals. Russians will always be the evil irrational Ork empire hellbent on taking over the world and getting drunk (and not necessarily in that particular order), and you will enojoy the equally questionable reputation. As far as the Russians' attitude towards Poles - it's generally favourable, we know to separate the people from the politics of the country. We do get annoyed by some unwise political acts that seem to have support among Poles (like the naming of one of Warsaw's streets after Dudaev or pretending to know what they were doing during Ukrainian "orange revolution") but so what, we've had a lot of very painful memories on both sides throughout our history. Polititians come and go and our contries and nations remain. Like it or not, we're neighbours (currently separated by Ukraine but that might not last forever).

Just continue to use your own head and find comfort in the fact for the most part your critics and haters (as well as ours) don't know what the hell they are talking about.

The problem is that West has committed errors and crimes, but has done some thing good for human kind!
Russia NEVER!

[Igor01]

The problem is that West has committed errors and crimes, but has done some thing good for human kind!
Russia NEVER!

Yeah, I suppose Poles saved themselves from the lovely fate the Nazi's planned for them (80% to be exterminated, the rest to be turned into slaves or "resettled" to remote areas of Siberia) the 600.000 Soviets that fell in Poland didn't have anything to do with.

Also don't worry about remembering that the Soviets paid with 27 million lives for inflicting 80% of German casualties and ending the war in Berlin. I am sure Poles and others would have been just fine on their own.

[Robroy]

Yeah, I suppose Poles saved themselves from the lovely fate the Nazi's planned for them (80% to be exterminated, the rest to be turned into slaves or "resettled" to remote areas of Siberia) the 600.000 Soviets that fell in Poland didn't have anything to do with.

Also don't worry about remembering that the Soviets paid with 27 million lives for inflicting 80% of German casualties and ending the war in Berlin. I am sure Poles and others would have been just fine on their own.


1- Soviet loosed so many persons due to the stupidity of their leaders! Their behaviour, strategy and tipicall comunist-russian misrespect for human life, caused too much victimis. Stalin oredered divisions to attack even hopeless, you know the so called russian strategy....
There were thousand upon thousand of soviet soldiers killed by NKVD (in Stalingrad 13000). No measure was taken to help civilians.

2- Soviet did not die to liberate Poland but to re-invade it after they invaded Poland together with their allie Hitler! So at WWII initially Russia was the greatest Allie of the nazism! You remember the Warsaw Uprise, and how Soviets behaved....

3- I am not Polish, but if there are two Nations that I will pay respect for all my entire life, they are Poland and Finland! Poland had the greatest rate of looses in WWII! They have payed such a tribute of blood, that I consider really un human to discuss for them in these terms.
Regards.

[Igor01]

1- Soviet loosed so many persons due to the stupidity of their leaders! Their behaviour, strategy and tipicall comunist-russian misrespect for human life, caoused do much victimis. Stalin oredered divisions to attack even hopeless, you know the so called russian strategy....
There were thousand upon thousand of soviet soldiers killed by NKVD (in Stalingrad 13000). No measure was taken to help civilians.

2- Soviet did not die to liberate Poland but to re-invade it after they invaded Poland together with their allie Hitler! So at WWII initially Russia was the greatest Allie of the nazism! You remember the Warsaw Uprise, and how Soviets behaved....

3- I am not Polish, but if there are two Nations that I will pay respect for all my entire life, they are Poland and Finland! Poland had the greatest rate of looses in WWII! They have payed such a tribute of blood, that I consider really un human to discuss for them in these terms.
Regards.

Ignorant AND arrogant? Oh well, it is mp.net after all

[Robroy]

Ignorant AND arrogant? Oh well, it is mp.net after all

You are a very polite man! Tipically russian-communist!

[mack pl]

Yeah, I suppose Poles saved themselves from the lovely fate the Nazi's planned for them (80% to be exterminated, the rest to be turned into slaves or "resettled" to remote areas of Siberia) the 600.000 Soviets that fell in Poland didn't have anything to do with.

Also don't worry about remembering that the Soviets paid with 27 million lives for inflicting 80% of German casualties and ending the war in Berlin. I am sure Poles and others would have been just fine on their own.


I have respect for all fallen soviet soldiers, who fought against nazis during the war. BUT we cant using such simplistic sentences when we are talking about Polish WWII history(ie "Soviet Russia saved Poland, you should be thankfull"). Its not that easy and simple, as you may think. You can't forget, that we(Poles) dont see in soviet troops only our liberators, but also we see in them our enemys(commie power). Yes, its weird.....anyway, we respect simple soldiers, but If you expect that we will be thankfull for Russia, well, we will dissapoint you, mate. You can't forget what happened after WWII. Your troops didnt return to home, and didnt left Poland. Soviet Russia installed here commie regime, and we become a soviet Russia sattelite(sp.). All Poles remember that till now....btw we can't forget that you participated in spetember 39 campaign, against us.

of course, it was better to be under commie regime, than under nazi, but it seems it wasnt enugh for us, we love our independence...

ohhh, and you use this number of your looses(27 milions)...what do you want to heard now? Yes, its quite high number, but we lost 1/4 of our citizens during the war...imagine that, mate...I respect all Russian civils(and sol') casaulties, but we also lost a lot of ppl. So, dont play this game, cuz its sensless.

btw
you mentioned Berlin...so, I have got a question to you.
If we should be so thankfull for you, that you saved our little ass during the war, are you trying to say, that Red Army could stop offensive against Germans? Hmm, I think you couldnt do that, it was a "must to do" for you...it was the only way to defeat nazi germany...you know that very well, dont ya? Anyway, like I said earlier, I respect all soviet soldiers who died for our "freedome", but please, think a little bit what could feel Poles, after WWII, cuz its seems you cant or dont want to understand it...our history isnt black and white, mate.

Regards
mack pl

[mack pl]

Soviet did not die to liberate Poland but to re-invade it after they invaded Poland together with their allie Hitler!

well, most of Poles think like that...

[Igor01]

I have respect for all fallen soviet soldiers, who fought against nazis during the war. BUT we cant using such simplistic sentences when we are talking about Polish WWII history(ie "Soviet Russia saved Poland, you should be thankfull"). Its not that easy and simple, as you may think. You can't forget, that we(Poles) dont see in soviet troops only our liberators, but also we see in them our enemys(commie power). Yes, its weird.....anyway, we respect simple soldiers, but If you expect that we will be thankfull for Russia, well, we will dissapoint you, mate. You can't forget what happened after WWII. Your troops didnt return to home, and didnt left Poland. Soviet Russia installed here commie regime, and we become a soviet Russia sattelite(sp.). All Poles remember that till now....btw we can't forget that you participated in spetember 39 campaign, against us.

of course, it was better to be under commie regime, than under nazi, but it seems it wasnt enugh for us, we love our independence...

ohhh, and you use this number of your looses(27 milions)...what do you want to heard now? Yes, its quite high number, but we lost 1/4 of our citizens during the war...imagine that, mate...I respect all Russian civils(and sol') casaulties, but we also lost a lot of ppl. So, dont play this game, cuz its sensless.

btw
you mentioned Berlin...so, I have got a question to you.
If we should be so thankfull for you, that you saved our little ass during the war, are you trying to say, that Red Army could stop offensive against Germans? Hmm, I think you couldnt do that, it was a "must to do" for you...it was the only way to defeat nazi germany...you know that very well, dont ya? Anyway, like I said earlier, I respect all soviet soldiers who died for our "freedome", but please, think a little bit what could feel Poles, after WWII, cuz its seems you cant or dont want to understand it...our history isnt black and white, mate.

Regards
mack pl

Soviets didn't save you from Nazi oppression, they saved you from remaining only a record in history books. Like it or not - your country and every Pole owes their very existance to the Soviet soldiers who fought and died so you could live.

I understand your feeling of resentment of the communist oppression but the fact still remains that if it were not for the Soviet sacrifice there would have been no Poland and no Polish nation to speak of.

Should you be thankful? It's your call man, just a question of whether you value the existence of Poland and her nation.

[Robroy]

Soviets didn't save you from Nazi oppression, they saved you from remaining only a record in history books. Like it or not - your country and every Pole owes their very existance to the Soviet soldiers who fought and died so you could live.

I understand your feeling of resentment of the communist oppression but the fact still remains that if it were not for the Soviet sacrifice there would have been no Poland and no Polish nation to speak of.

Should you be thankful? It's your call man, just a question of whether you value the existence of Poland and her nation.


soviet did their best, and Russia before with their chauvinism, to delete the Polish Nation and possibly its record in History!
But Overlord knows that world must be poorer withour these blessed Poles!

[Robroy]

well, most of Poles think like that...

and they rested as invaders and bloody rulers, till finally they were kicked forever!

[mack pl]

Soviets didn't save you from Nazi oppression, they saved you from remaining only a record in history books. Like it or not - your country and every Pole owes their very existance to the Soviet soldiers who fought and died so you could live.

I understand your feeling of resentment of the communist oppression but the fact still remains that if it were not for the Soviet sacrifice there would have been no Poland and no Polish nation to speak of.

Should you be thankful? It's your call man, just a question of whether you value the existence of Poland and her nation.

like I said, I am thankfull for simple soviet soldiers, and their sacrifice...no need to talk about that. BUT we dont think, we own you* anything. Like I said, Soviet Russia government didnt saved Poland because you feel pity for us, it was strategical(political, whatever) decision....Stalin couldnt say, "Fuzk of Poles, go and die", he have to defeat nazis anyway... so, there is difference between being thankfull for simple soldier sacrifice, and being thankfull for your country...see difference?

*-Russia as a country

[Igor01]

soviet did their best, and Russia before with their chauvinism, to delete the Polish Nation and possibly its record in History!
But Overlord knows that world must be poorer withour these blessed Poles!

I think we've been blessed by a new incarnation of the fabled "Albanian" that graced this board with many a profound insight under a plethora of nicks all of which would invariably get banned.

Thanks for the entertainment and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[Robroy]

like I said, I am thankfull for simple soviet soldiers, and their sacrifice...no need to talk about that. BUT we dont think, we own you* anything. Like I said, Soviet Russia government didnt saved Poland because you feel pity for us, it was strategical(political, whatever) decision....Stalin couldnt say, "Fuzk of Poles, go and die", he have to defeat nazis anyway... so, there is difference between being thankfull for simple soldier sacrifice, and being thankfull for your country...see difference?

*-Russia as a country

That´s all!

[Robroy]

I think we've been blessed by a new incarnation of the fabled "Albanian" that graced this board with many a profound insight under a plethora of nicks all of which would invariably get banned.

Thanks for the entertainment and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

as I said, a reall polite man!!!
You have not arguments??? You kill, you intimidate, you threate!
As I said, ruski-commie mentality...

[mack pl]

steady guys...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

This thread is like a zombie- it just won't die :)

[Igor01]

like I said, I am thankfull for simple soviet soldiers, and their sacrifice...no need to talk about that. BUT we dont think, we own you* anything. Like I said, Soviet Russia government didnt saved Poland because you feel pity for us, it was strategical(political, whatever) decision....Stalin couldnt say, "Fuzk of Poles, go and die", he have to defeat nazis anyway... so, there is difference between being thankfull for simple soldier sacrifice, and being thankfull for your country...see difference?

*-Russia as a country

Poland as a country doesn't owe Russia as a country, after all it was not just Russia but Soviet Union that fought and won the war. It does not belittle you however when you admit on a personal level that you are thankful to those who fell so that Poland could live on. Simple human emotions is what we all can relate to, Poles, Russians, hell even "Albanians" perhaps :)

[mack pl]

Poland as a country doesn't owe Russia as a country, after all it was not just Russia but Soviet Union that fought and won the war. It does not belittle you however when you admit on a personal level that you are thankful to those who fell so that Poland could live on. Simple human emotions is what we all can relate to, Poles, Russians, hell even "Albanians" perhaps :)

;)

lets change the topic guys.

do you think that Poland won this war? p-)

ps
brzeczyszczykiewicz, go away kid... p-)

[Igor01]

;)

lets change the topic guys.

do you think that Poland won this war? p-)

ps
brzeczyszczykiewicz, go away kid... p-)

Poland won because you are not posting this on a German language website from a "reeducation camp" near Norilsk :)

I like Brzeczyszczykiewicz so much I'd nominate him for president of Poland but he lacks the populist appeal and is not likely to rename some Warsaw streets after Shamil Basaev and Khattab so he doesn't stand a chance...

[mack pl]

Poland won because you are not posting this on a German language website from a "reeducation camp" near Norilsk :)

hahahaaa....


I like Brzeczyszczykiewicz so much I'd nominate him for president of Poland but he lacks the populist appeal and is not likely to rename some Warsaw streets after Shamil Basaev and Khattab so he doesn't stand a chance...

LOL, great idea, mate...although, Dudayev and Maskhadov would have bigger chances p-)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

<- hahah and this will be my election poster :D

But seriously, the issues like Katyn or the in-famous backstabbing were discussed more that a hunderd times on these boards wihtout any result or agreement, and it really annoys me when a noob comes to such thread (which has been dead since few months) and just starts yelling: You evil Poles/Russians! You're just treacherous bastards/America's bitches! You should rot in hell!!!!!!!111oneoneoneeleven! ;)


edit
btw. mack I hate you so much... p-)

[mack pl]

btw. mack I hate you so much... p-)

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Igor01]

<- hahah and this will be my election poster :D

But seriously, the issues like Katyn or the in-famous backstabbing were discussed more that a hunderd times on these boards wihtout any result or agreement, and it really annoys me when a noob comes to such thread (which has been dead since few months) and just starts yelling: You evil Poles/Russians! You're just treacherous bastards/America's bitches! You should rot in hell!!!!!!!111oneoneoneeleven! ;)


edit
btw. mack I hate you so much... p-)

Couldn't agree more. Had I known right away that "robroy" is none other than our good old "Albanian" baboon I wouldn't have bothered replying to his hateful vomit.

[Robroy]

Poland as a country doesn't owe Russia as a country, after all it was not just Russia but Soviet Union that fought and won the war. It does not belittle you however when you admit on a personal level that you are thankful to those who fell so that Poland could live on. Simple human emotions is what we all can relate to, Poles, Russians, hell even "Albanians" perhaps :)

1- Soviet Union was RUSSIA! As Russian Embire was Russia! As Russian federation is Russia!

2- you won the war???? Well you begin the war atacking Poland as allies of nazism! Later you fought for Stalin even for USA an UK that made fall all the weight of the war on your back! After war you continued to have a social slavery based on slavery, and the "loosers" the Germans, Italians and japs, became some of the richest countries of the world! And you what did you win? Ah, the biggest atomic submarine....Well keeping present the geometrical form of a submarine and the Freud's theory, it is easy to achive some conclusions....

3- Albanians did not covered the world with terror and blood, so they have human emotions....russians perhaps have this kind of human emotions that can be awaked by blood, terror and distruction!

4- POLES ARE ALIVE DUE TO THEIR WILL TO BE ALIVE, THE BLOOD THAT THEY WERE READY TO SHADE FOR THE OWN FATHERLAND!

REGARDS.

[Robroy]

[quote=mack pl];)

lets change the topic guys.

do you think that Poland won this war? p-)

ps
brzeczyszczykiewicz, go away kid... p-)[/q

Yes Poland won at 1990.....

[Robroy]

Couldn't agree more. Had I known right away that "robroy" is none other than our good old "Albanian" baboon I wouldn't have bothered replying to his hateful vomit.

if youe were not a russian arrogant, ignorant and thursty for human blood, I would tell to the moderators that you are insulting me!
But it is presumibly vain to ask ayou to behave as civil person....

[Igor01]

if youe were not a russian arrogant, ignorant and thursty for human blood, I would tell to the moderators that you are insulting me!
..

Even though I eat babies for breakfast I am not the one who gets his ass banned with the regularity of a swiss watch. Oh well at least you're consistent.

[Musashi]

I see somebody did "Enter of the Dragon II" in this topic ;)

[nahimov]

Interesting how Poles like to bring up Katyn Yar but they "foget" that a lot of concentration camps in Poland were run by Poles. Poles were more than happy to execute jews in some cases even before Germans got there. How come you are not investingating those murders?

[mack pl]

Interesting how Poles like to bring up Katyn Yar but they "foget" that a lot of concentration camps in Poland were run by Poles. Poles were more than happy to execute jews in some cases even before Germans got there. How come you are not investingating those murders?

I have 2 questions:

1) what did you smoked?

2) where can I buy it?

btw
in case If you missed it, the author of this thread is French, not Pole

[mack pl]

Interesting how Poles like to bring up Katyn Yar but they "foget" that a lot of concentration camps in Poland were run by Poles. Poles were more than happy to execute jews in some cases even before Germans got there. How come you are not investingating those murders?


HELLOOOO!!!!!!!!


okay, care you explain what camps were run by Poles? when, and where? And when did we "executed" some Jews before Germans?

I am waiting

[Telnyashka]

Why the double post 15 minutes after yours? He could be offline...

[mack pl]

Why the double post 15 minutes after yours?

because I can...

He could be offline...

yeah, sure...he posted 4 minutes before me, and turn off his PC, right...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Interesting how Poles like to bring up Katyn Yar but they "foget" that a lot of concentration camps in Poland were run by Poles. Poles were more than happy to execute jews in some cases even before Germans got there. How come you are not investingating those murders?

bwahhahahahahahahahaa roflroflrofl...









... idiot :cantbeli:

[Robroy]

Even though I eat babies for breakfast I am not the one who gets his ass banned with the regularity of a swiss watch. Oh well at least you're consistent.

Being banned for having the courage to express FREELY proper oppinions, is not so bad. But a Russian can not understand the sense of FREELY!
You are so uncivil, that every time you have no argument, never have the intellectual honesty to admit, but immediately begin, kill him, insult him, ban him, inferior race, terrorism, etc etc....

[Robroy]

Poland won because you are not posting this on a German language website from a "reeducation camp" near Norilsk :)

...

Poland won because they are not posting in Russian or with the cyrillic alphabet, because they are non in a russian extermination camp in Siberia, Gulag and hundreds of these tipicall creations of Russian "civilisation".
Long live Poland, the Country that save Europe form the barbaric invasion!

[Lokos]

You are so uncivil,

Preceded by...

But a Russian can not understand the sense of FREELY!

And followed by...

Gulag and hundreds of these tipicall creations of Russian "civilisation".

You're one of a kind, firefighter. One of a kind. Only you can so blatantly put forth a position of unbelievable hypocricy, and have the nerve to not even blink whilst doing it.

Lokos

[Robroy]

Preceded by...



And followed by...



You're one of a kind, firefighter. One of a kind. Only you can so blatantly put forth a position of unbelievable hypocricy, and have the nerve to not even blink whilst doing it.

Lokos

You can not accept other truths from your distorted image og truth!
This makes you a risk for humankind!

[asch]

2 Robroy

uh-huh, we are - russians - The Evil Source of Troubles!
mwwwwahhahahahaha!!!!
actually - it was us, who kill Julius Caesar too, but i don't say you that, ok?

and about our "barbaric invasion" - well, it's never too late.
someday i again wear my fur battlesuit, riding "Loshadka" fast attack vehicle, making rampage over civilized lands of Greatest Western Civilization.

uhh, me bored, me go to kill some babies with axes. :fork:

well, try to see more than tip of your nose.
actually you kinda funny.
did not think that your kind still exist.

[mack pl]

someday i again wear my fur battlesuit, riding "Loshadka" fast attack vehicle, making rampage over civilized lands of Greatest Western Civilization.


hahahaaa, you're funny dude


peace

[asch]

ur welcome
p-)

[Robroy]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/image.php?u=12773&dateline=1129519361

From Vladivostock???? Hmmm! You have all the reasons to to it!:) rofl :hug:

[XTC]

Shpirt !!!!!!! :hug:

Welcome back

[Robroy]

Shpirt !!!!!!! :hug:

Welcome back

Zemer, I missed u!:hug:

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

Poland won because they are not posting ... with the cyrillic alphabet

So vowel deficiency = the win?

[Musashi]

So vowel deficiency = the win?
We have an appropriate number of vowels for our language.
a, ą, e, ę, o, u, ó, i, y,
I guess it's more than in Russian.

[asch]

wrong guess.
btw, linguistic thread? :)

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

We have an appropriate number of vowels for our language.
a, ą, e, ę, o, u, ó, i, y,
I guess it's more than in Russian.

Ahh, I though you would have learned by now that it is not the size of your alphabet, but what you do with it that matters. ;)

Just ask out friend Brzeczyszczykiewicz.

[watcher]

Stalin sought revengee against Poland for kicking Russia's ass in 1921. What we don't know in America about Polish history would fill books. The communists attacked westward in 1921 to spread communism into Eastern and Western Europe and Poland stopped them cold. A secret agreement with Hitler allowed them to go after the Polish officers at Katyn in order to forestall
any future resurgent military ambitions.

[watcher]

Jozef Pilsudski, the commander of Polish forces, attacked the Bolsheviks in force in 1919...

[Kilgor]

Stalin sought revengee against Poland for kicking Russia's ass in 1921. What we don't know in America about Polish history would fill books. The communists attacked westward in 1921 to spread communism into Eastern and Western Europe and Poland stopped them cold. A secret agreement with Hitler allowed them to go after the Polish officers at Katyn in order to forestall
any future resurgent military ambitions.

Guess who stuffed up the polish campaign when he was a commisar ?
And many years later took revenge against the leaders who dared challenged his mistakes in that very campaign.

[watcher]

yes, he "fought" in the War and lost.

[Shqiptari]

First to appolagize for the behavior of the other Albanian guy here...kids are kids everywhere and they'll be kids no matter their nationality...so dont judge people based on the words and actions of some anonymous person on some website. His arguments and words are BS to say the best...

Now...about this Katyn and Poland as the victim thing...I think with all due respect to the Poles...you play the victim way too much. The situation isn't as simple as evil Soviets want to wipe us out so they killed our people because they were such great Polish patriots.

To begin with...would SOMONE please care to remind me what happened to about 20,000 Soviet POWs who NEVER came back from Polich captivity in 1920?? Thats something no one ever even remembers anymore...certainly doesn't want to talk about anymore. But if you'r going to play the helpless victim here...and IF the Soviets indeed did the thing at Katyn...it was essencially the same thing the Poles ahd done to Soviet POWs just 20 years earlier.

Secondly...Poland had invaded and annexed huge chunk of what today is Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. I'm no expert on the demographics of that region at the time...but I do know that there were several million non-Poles living in these areas...people who had been put under Polish control since 1921. Now Poland wasn't paradise on earth in 1939...especially the areas under occupation...were run more along medieval lines. Poland certainly didn't treat its numerous minorities well by any stretch of the imagination. The Slavic inhabitants of these lands were essencially sencond class citizens..and the same fate awaited the German minrotiy in Poland which was also persecuted and deported (something which wasn't a very good idea in retrospect when you had Hitler next to you!!!) So USSR not only had a GOOD argument for going into what was then Poland...in fact what it was doing was only retaking what was esencially Soviet territory under occupation. From what I understand...the land the Soviets went into in 1939...today is still part of the ex-Soviet republics.

As I said I don't know much about the demographics and what arguments can be used about that one way or another...but the Poles were essencially occupying a land which was if not mostly, to a very large extent, inhabited by non-Poles..and they weren't treating them nicely either.

So the whole victim of Russian expansionism...doesn't work to well. Quick view through history...you'll see Poles even tried to go as far as Moscow once. So if you had the chance...and when you did have the chance...you were just as imperialistic, expansionist...and brutal...as the Russian Empire was.

Thirdly...Poland and their struggle against the Nazis in WW2. No one is denying that struggle...its just a matter of who struggeled...and who ran. Poland by far had the LOWESTofficer to soldier casualty ratio. From accounts I'v read...the Polich government and the Polish elite and its military elite...were pretty quick to pack and run...nd leave everyone else behind. The military elite of Poland was pretty quick to run and leave their soldiers behind...which explains the unusual low ratio. The Polish political elite at the time was busy scratching both the Soviets and the Germans off...maybe at the request of the British...and when push came to shuv...they packed and run.

From the memoirs of the German foreign minister at the time...he had a meeting with his Polish counterpart...where his Polish counterpart offered Germany a plan wheren the two would cooperate in a joint attack on the USSR...in exchange for Poland getting the Ukraine. Again these are from Ribentroff's memoirs...so how accurate they are you can judge for yourself. And the Polish response to Hitler of deporting the German minority was certainly not a smart one.

So the claim of heroic resistance may be true...but that resistance I don't think came from the elite or the military elite and maybe not so much from the people who ended up in Katyn so much.

Fourth...there was a SHI*TLOAD of Polsih soldiers who served on the Soviet side in WW2...FAR more than there were on the British side or any other side. From my memories the Polish Free Army in the USSR numbered more than 300,000. MAJORITY of these soldiers...were Polish soldiers who had been captured in 1939...and then joined the Soviets. Anther group of some 100,000+ went through Iran to the British side and then off to Western Europe. SO...this anemosity and pointless hatered maybe didn't exist so much there...maybe not as much as today...even though as some of you here claim...the monsterous Ruskies were eating babies and killing Polish soldiers and POWs left and right...Strange...so why would so many Poles then join the Soviets if they were being treated so horribly??

Fifth..from what I understand...Polish soldiers who were captured in 1939...and there were a LOT of them...remained imprisoned only for a very short period of time...and then they were released and allowed to return to their homes in what was now part of the USSR. The only people who remained imprisoned...were these at three special POW camps...because they weren't considered simply as military POWs...but actually as criminals. The crimes they were accused off ranged from massacring Soviet POWs in 1920 (what I mentioned earlier), to other crimes dating back to 1920...to various accusations of mistreatment of the local non-Polish population in those territories and so forth. So essencially by law these people were no longer POWs...but criminals...and therefore they fall under a different category.

Sixth...from my belief...it is FAR from obvious or clear who was responsible for Katyn....or what exactly happened there. Firstly I don't believe a single word from the "testimonies" of the Gorbachiov era. Gorbachiov was anxious to portray his predececors in a bad light and he used all means to do it...especially Yakovlev who was supposed to be in charge of uncovering Stalin's crimes. Not to bellitle Stalin's crimes and responsabilities in them...but the NONSENSE that came out of Yakovlev's mouth has yet to be proven at all...and since the Soviet archives have been opened and examined by a lot of different historians...the things that ahev come out of that are FAR less grandious than we had been led to believe. Their Katyn investigation was one of them. It is a FACT...that the two key witnesses in the Gorby testimonies...have since the early 90s RECANTED their testimonies...saying they made them under threat...and that they are not true at all. One of these key witnesses was a man who back in the late 80s testified that he was the head of a prison in Smolensk where executions were carrying out in a large scale for several weeks...with the budies being taken to the Katyn forest and being burried there...and he described this whole precess in detail. Later on he said he made it all up under threat. And his testimony...COMPLETELY contradicts the German version of events...funnily enough...so one of the two can't be true.

Furthermore...about those documents from Beria and supposedly Stalin saying he orders the killings. The fact of the matter is...there is NOTHING to authenticate those documents...and in fact these document's DON'T exist according to the Soviet Archives because NOTHING to authenticate them exists. In the Soviet archives...Top Secret documents are accompanied by a document number, the names of the people who wrote it, the names of the people whohave seen it, the carbon paper used to make a copy, the key to the typewritter used to write the documents...and other such items to authenticate it and to keep trace of who has been seeing it. These documents come with NONE of these...and there's nothing else in the Soviet archives to authenticate that this EVEN actually ever happened. If it did...there would aslo be documents going to the local prison camp chiefs, documents going out to the NKVD...docuemtns coming back and forth and reports on the situations...and so forth. None of these exist. Soviets were generally very beurocratic when it came to such things.

I'm not necessarely saying they are fakes...but there's certainly not much to say they are real either.

Seventh...there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the killings did indeed happen in 1941...and not 1940. It is NOT true that Russian bullets were found. MANY types of bullets were found...some of them being the same calibre as bullets Russians would use...and many of them being calibres the Russians never used but were used by the Germans. The prisoners were wearing winter coats when executed...and yet the Germasn claimed the executions happened in May 1940. Decomposed fallen leafes were found in the graves...but leaves don't fall in May...they fall in autumn...a cold period...and also the period right after the Germans occupied these camps. Furthermore according to the Soviet investiagtion carried out after the war...and you can CHOSE to believe any of it, or part of it, or none of it...but it is there nonetheless...they interviewed two women who supposedly were emplyed by the Germans in a house which was in this forest...where the German soldiers supposedly staying and carried out their actions. They described that the Germasn killed them...and how they did it...and named the unit, the unit commander and the individual German soldiers involved. These soldiers were later put on trial and questioned...but they denied any involvment and the trial ended at that.

All I'm saying is...NONE of the PHYSICAL evidence suggests the killings happened in May 1940 as the Germans claimed. The physical evidence suggests something very different. Nor is the circumstances under which the murders were done very convincing. The Germans claimed th ekillings were done in the "NKVD house" in the forest...the same house described above. Supposedly this was a quiet area where the killings could be done easily without anyone noticing it. However, the situation seems very different. the "NKVD house" was actually a vacation house for families of NKVD officer...so there would be women and kids running around the area...and Katyn forest itself was an attractive picknicking spot for residents in Smolensk and nearby...and there was apparently some heavy road construction work going on just a few dozen meters from where the mass garves were during this period. This spot...was not a good spot to kill and burry 20,000 people!!!...not in the spring-summer of 1940. The Soviet investigation had a lot more testimonials and evidence to say it was the Germans...and one can choe to accept them or can chose to reject them...but then again you;d be doing it purely on your subjective preferance for one or the other.

So who did it?? I don't know and I don't think anyone can say for sure...not unless some unpartial investigation is done on what little evidfence remains. Both Germany and USSr were capable of this action...and had reason to carry out the action...I am of the belief it was the Germans...becasue the physical evidence points to that and the archival "evidence" presented looks like a bunch of crap and forgeries which came out during the Gorbachiov period (which have actually been rejected by the real stuff that came out when the archives were actually opened).

And also what I'm saying is that no one should play the victim too much...or accuse an entire people so much and in such manners. When it comes to wrongdoing...Poland has its fair share of it too...like everyone else...Poland didn't escape to be a lamb.

PS:One very funny thing on this however...which kind of goes to point my argument that people can really invent a lot of BS to make their point on this issue...I was watching a documentary the History Channel made on the Katyn massacre. The History Channel of course is generally a load of crap...this time more than usual apparently. In this documentary they pretty much took the entire Soviet investigation...and turned it completely around. According to the documentary this American representative when the Soviest dug out the bodies asked the Soviets why the bodies were wearing coats when they supposedly were executed in the summer...and that was proof the Soviets did it!! When I heard that ti was kind of surprising...because the real story is that the Soviest claimed it happned in the winter and the Germans claimed summer..and this event did in fact happen...but it was actually a US representative asking the GERMANs when they dug up the bodies that question. And furthermore they taked about this woman who worked at the house in the forest who described how the NKVD did all the killings and then celeberated every night. Funny...because actually the woman who worked there described how the Germans did it and celebrated. It was historical FALSIFICATION...not even revisionism...but outright lying and turing things upside down. I dont knwo if they did it out of stupidity and ignorance...or did it on purpose...but esencially it was taking events which showed one thing and turned them around to show something else. If that is the level of intelligence in discussions on Katyn...than this issue will never be solved.

[Smok]

If we are talking about 20000 russians POW's you should know one thing.
Poland regained indenpendence after 123 years. Our country was horrible destroyed by WWI. Our soldiers didn't have weapons or even clothes! They have to use herbs because there were no enought medicamets! Also remember that there was epidemic of "spanish flu". So manyPOW's died not because they were murdered but because of illnesses and bad condition of our country.
During Polish-Bolsheviks war we took about 165000 POW's. Russian souces say that about 18000 died in Poland.
Of course some of them could be murdered. But murdered without permission of polish goverment (war is war).
There is huge difference between 9,1% mortality in polish camps (if russian souces are absolutely true) during great war and spain flu epidemy and 100% mortality in russian camps during peace (Katyn was before german attack on Russia).

Rest of your post is so stupid that it is worthless to write about it.

[Kilgor]

Wow, just what this board needs, yet another appologist and revisionist for crimes of the soviet union.

[Shqiptari]

Well those were brillinat replies...as I expected...


There is huge difference between 9,1% mortality in polish camps (if russian souces are absolutely true) during great war and spain flu epidemy and 100% mortality in russian camps during peace (Katyn was before german attack on Russia).


Hmm?? How many POWs did the Soviets take in 1939?? Somehow...I think it was more than 20,000 ;) Read above...300,000 Polish ex-POWs forming the core of the Free Polish forces in USSR...another 100,000+ going off to England from the USSR through Iran. Do the math...does 20,000 sound like 100% of that to you??

Do I need to keep commenting on the level of these discussions you people carry out here?? Esxcuse me for interrupting your little one-liners. lol...its just an insult to math to say 20,000 is 100% of several hundred thousand...lol

[Lokos]

and 100% mortality in russian camps during peace

Indeed, as Shqiptari pointed out, the number of Polish prisoners taken in 1939 by the Soviet armed forces was certainly far, far greater than 20,000. Those killed at Katyn were officers and intelligentzia. The rank and file were a) sent to the British Middle East through Iran and b) used to form the Polish units in the RKKA.

Wow, just what this board needs, yet another appologist and revisionist for crimes of the soviet union.

There's nothing wrong with revisionism when it puts commonly held beliefs into context. Revisionism is a negative catch-phrase only in terms of agenda laden historiography.

Although, I should probably point out that I believe Stalin did have the Katyn massacre carried out for reasons of realpolitik.

Lokos

[perdurabo]

this thread gone wild, my fellow Poles behave like in besidged castle, and our friends from other countries take this as whining and trying to whitening Polish history... could we talk about this without emotions??
1.Polish "annexion" of estern lands -small dose of history is needed:
in 14century Poland had war with Teutonic Order neighbour country Lithuania also fought with crusaders. Lithuania was non catholic at this time, Poland lost its King, so common enemy usually makes good friends. Poland and Lithuania created union where Lithuanian Grand Prince Vladislavus Jagiello married Polish Queen Jadwiga. At this time Poland was small western lands was lost to Germany and tried to expand eastwards and south, Poland was quite technological advenced and quite ritch country. While Lithuania was quite fresh country not christianized (so Teutonic Order coud fight with them to turn them to "right religion") menaged to acquire big lands of former Kievian Rus down to Crimea and Black Sea. Polish Lithuanian Union was at the begining only personal union to fight aginst Teutonic Order, but later it became Polish Lithuanian Commonwelth (in small interial "war" Poles captured Ukraine and forced Lithuanians to tighten Union) in XVI and XVII century Comonwelth was one of the strongest countries in the world, democratic and with quite big freedom (but limited only for higher clases, pesants at the bottom had no priviledges -altough their lives where not so hard land was good so farming was easy -enough to say that peasants never rebbeled aginst Commonwelth but few times helped like in Swedish Deluge)-one of marks of Commonwelth power was capture of Moscow and holding it for few years(throwing Poles out of Moscov is national independance day in Russia) only Mongols acheved more aginst Russia(from XV until the end of XIXcentury Poland and Lithuania where usually synonyms everyone thought about them as one), then hard times in XVII(swedish deluge, turkish wars and cossacs rebelion-prabably the worst thing we did in history trying to make peasants out of cossacs) and XVIII century cripled country economics so stronger and stronger Russia together with new strong player Prussia and Habsburg Austria divided Commonwelth and for 123 years Poland and Lithuania where enslaved(although still fighting for freedom taking all chances but without sucess). Then WWI happened and bring freedom to Poland and Lithuania, western, southern and northen borders of Poland where made on Versalis theraty in rather peacefull way (3 silesian uprisings bring part of silesia that from midleages was in german hands to Poland-silesians where poles or rather slavs but strongly germanized) but estern borders had to be solved by war called war of 1920. Poles did one horible thing we took Vilnus capitol of Lithuania, althoug citi was strongly Polonised with Polish majority it was bad step it destroyed our friendship for rest of the XXcentury(still even now meany Lithuanians dislike Poles but its going to be better now they have own country we have own we are in NATO and EU...).
Case of Russian/Soviet POWs wasn't investiged but this case should be investiged and if it was intentional murder it should be threated by Poles like war crime same as Katyń.

[mack pl]

it is very interesting that you are trying deny that Soviet soldiers killed these officers, even If current Russian governmant confirmed that. There is only one difference between our(Polish and Russian) point of view , Poland considered this as a mass murder, genocide, and Russians not, but they dont deny it....like Lokos said, it was part of Stalin's realpolitik.


anyway, If we play the victim rule too much in your opinion, I am sorry, that's our national stigma.

[mack pl]

Case of Russian/Soviet POWs wasn't investiged but this case should be investiged and if it was intentional murder it should be threated by Poles like war crime same as Katyń.

there is difference between shoot in the head, and lack of food and medicines in POW's camps...so, your comparision to Katyn is inncorect.....you may say that our gov wasn't enough interested in taking care about soviet POW's, but there is no proof it was planned action to eliminate them...if we really want to do that, there would be 10 times more dead soviet POW's.....but we may discuss it whole year, and everyones will stay with theirs opinion... ;)

[mack pl]

BTW

The only people who remained imprisoned...were these at three special POW camps...because they weren't considered simply as military POWs...but actually as criminals. The crimes they were accused off ranged from massacring Soviet POWs in 1920 (what I mentioned earlier), to other crimes dating back to 1920...to various accusations of mistreatment of the local non-Polish population in those territories and so forth. So essencially by law these people were no longer POWs...but criminals...and therefore they fall under a different category.


maybe I failed to understand your point here, but, are you trying to say, that Polish POW's from 1939 were accused off such things like killing soviet POW's 19 yers earlier.....Im not asking about mistreament of the non-Poles.

Thanks

[Zarathustra]

Ok I'm back after a 3 days ban, I was mad reading this thread and couldn't answer to your recent post and to be quite honest, I didn't think when I started this thread that it would be a 13 pages endless debate. Buttchwodder, you are a jackass, you know **** about history so go back to your kindergarten aka " off section & humor " that's way better for someone like you. Your comment " asking why stalin murdered is like... blah blah blah " is ridiculous and pointless. I wondered the reason of those murdered, that's all, and to all poles, yeah I also know that 22 000 poles officers were killed but I was especially interested in this mass-murder. So someone said that poles like to talk about murders amongst their own population when they helped a lot the Nazis to get rid of the Jews, that's pretty rude to say that. Yes some people collaborated in Poland, like in France and in any others nations occupied by the Nazis but it's insulting the poles killed by the nazis in 1944 in Warsaw to say that they were all gloating at the murder of the Jews. Yes mack is right, in 1990 at the end of communism in Russia, the government officially admitted that they were being responsible for Katyn and some other mass-murder of poles so theres no point in arguing " who did that " because we all know it.

[perdurabo]

there is difference between shoot in the head, and lack of food and medicines in POW's camps...so, your comparision to Katyn is inncorect.....you may say that our gov wasn't enough interested in taking care about soviet POW's, but there is no proof it was planned action to eliminate them...if we really want to do that, there would be 10 times more dead soviet POW's.....but we may discuss it whole year, and everyones will stay with theirs opinion... ;)
Was this case studied? do we know for 100% sure that they died out of desise and femine? i said if it was intentional murder from polish side it should be threated as war crime!

[mack pl]

Was this case studied? do we know for 100% sure that they died out of desise and femine?

yes and no(you can't be 100% that some of them haven't been killed by Polish guards or smth like that)

btw
noone here claims that there was no war crimes from our side...you may even find clear orders from some high ranking Polish officers to execute soviet POW's(especially Cossacks, who were famous of killing civilians) in Polish-Soviet war(1919-21). But it has nothing to do with mass murders in POW's camps...there was no such thing.

there is no white and black in history kids ;)

[mack pl]

Yes mack is right

Im always right, even when Im not


p-)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

To begin with...would SOMONE please care to remind me what happened to about 20,000 Soviet POWs who NEVER came back from Polich captivity in 1920?? Thats something no one ever even remembers anymore...certainly doesn't want to talk about anymore. But if you'r going to play the helpless victim here...and IF the Soviets indeed did the thing at Katyn...it was essencially the same thing the Poles ahd done to Soviet POWs just 20 years earlier.

A large number of them died, that's for sure. But as Smok mentioned, they weren't killed intentionally, by a shot in the head.
In 1920 no-one in Poland expected that the Warsaw counter-offensive will be successful and Poland would be able to win the war. The army was totally unprepared for taking such large number of POWs. Makeshift camps were built, but the conditions in them were very bad. The flu epidemic took a large number of victims. Also, some of the prisoners decided not to come back to the SU and emigrate to the Western Europe, US or stay in Poland (some of them even joined the Polish army). These people were also counted as 'dead' by the SU.




Secondly...Poland had invaded and annexed huge chunk of what today is Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. I'm no expert on the demographics of that region at the time...but I do know that there were several million non-Poles living in these areas...people who had been put under Polish control since 1921. Now Poland wasn't paradise on earth in 1939...especially the areas under occupation...were run more along medieval lines. Poland certainly didn't treat its numerous minorities well by any stretch of the imagination. The Slavic inhabitants of these lands were essencially sencond class citizens..

Second class citizens with full voting rights, their own representation in the parliament etc...
The discrimination which took place on the Poland's eastern territories was based on the political wievs, not nationality or religion. Members of the nationalist or communist movements (Belarussian Hromada, Ukrainian OUN) were presecuted, but the rest of population had the same rights as everyone in Poland.




and the same fate awaited the German minrotiy in Poland which was also persecuted and deported

Sorry, but rofl .
Persecuted and deported... Where?


So USSR not only had a GOOD argument for going into what was then Poland...in fact what it was doing was only retaking what was esencially Soviet territory under occupation. From what I understand...the land the Soviets went into in 1939...today is still part of the ex-Soviet republics.

No, it wasn't a Soviet territory. Prior to the Polish-Soviet war Ukraine and Belarus were independent states, and they were literally partitioned between Poland and SU in the treaty of Riga.


So the whole victim of Russian expansionism...doesn't work to well. Quick view through history...you'll see Poles even tried to go as far as Moscow once.

Ahh, 1612... the good ol' times p-)


Thirdly...Poland and their struggle against the Nazis in WW2. No one is denying that struggle...its just a matter of who struggeled...and who ran. Poland by far had the LOWESTofficer to soldier casualty ratio. From accounts I'v read...the Polich government and the Polish elite and its military elite...were pretty quick to pack and run...nd leave everyone else behind. The military elite of Poland was pretty quick to run and leave their soldiers behind...which explains the unusual low ratio. The Polish political elite at the time was busy scratching both the Soviets and the Germans off...maybe at the request of the British...and when push came to shuv...they packed and run.

Well the Polish government and military high command left the country on 17th September, when SU invaded, and I don't see anything bad in that. I mean, the whole Polish C2 system was destroyed by the Luftwaffe during the first week of war and neither the government, nor the C-in-C had any insight into the actual military situation or the ability to command. They just left because they didn't have anything to do... <