Jews fighting on the axis side during world war 2.

[mustamato]

Just a footnote in the historybooks. But could be interesting for people like IDFM203 and others that seems to think that all europeans are anti-semitics no matter what. Everything is not just black and white. Note that this just is about the finnish soldiers that were jews, not the civilian jews nor the Soviet POW´s that happened to be jews.

1.) The Winter War

In 1939 there was some 1700 Jews in Finland. Approximately 260 Finnish Jews participated in the Winter War, 200 of whom served at the front. There were also several Jewish volunteers coming from Europe, some of them desperately seeking a way to escape Nazi influence. Jewishness was not emphasised in the army; anti-Semitism was not an issue, and neither was the war particularly problematic for the Jews ideologically, for Finland was merely seen as defending itself against an attack by the Soviet Union. The war united the Jews with Finland more strongly than anything before, and it has been said that with their effort, they proved they truly were Finns

2.) The Continuation War

In the summer of 1941, Finland joined the war Germany had started against the Soviet Union. In this Continuation War the loyalty of Finnish Jews was put to test. Nevertheless, the Jews fought like everyone else. The Jewish magazine Makkabi declared in December 1942 that they were fighting “for the freedom and independence of Finland”. Relationships with the Germans were described as correct, even friendly. Most Jews spoke German, which may have contributed to friendships being formed. Jewishness of these soldiers was not hidden from the Germans, and there even was a field synagogue. Furloughs were given for Sabbaths, and some came from considerable distances to attend. The Germans were aware of the synagogue but did not interfere. Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative. When asked about their Jewish soldiers, Finnish superiors usually defended them, saying they were no different from other Finns. Jewish medical officers treated German patients and saved their lives, even risking their own. Several Jews were awarded German decorations, and no instance is known of German soldiers refusing to co-operate with Finnish Jewish officers. During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.

More about the finnish jewish soldiers during world war 2:

http://www.uta.fi/~tuulikki.vuonokari/fin-1viimeisin.rtf
http://www.finemb.org.il/Historia.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/vjw/Finland.html

[IDFM203]

Just a footnote in the historybooks. But could be interesting for people like IDFM203 and others that seems to think that all europeans are anti-semitics no matter what. hey mustmato you just cant help lying out of your a**....its getting a bit old already :roll:

First I never said that I consider ALL Europeans to be anti Semitic, and no its not "no matter what", its only those Euro’s with your pompous and bigoted not to mention false views in a lot of cases do I consider them to be that and admittedly I feel that a lot more are there, but not ALL by any means.


As for what you brought down here, I cant speak for every individual case nor do I care to for in general your examples is pittance to the way most Europeans treated the Jews then.

Shalom :D

[army cadet_ngcsu]

This is an extremely interesting piece.

[Roger Rabbit]

I once read a interview of a German Officer during D-Day who said he had a Jewish soldier serving under him. It was in a magazine called "Images of War2" and i read it many moons ago.

[S'13]

The fact that there were Jews fighting on the axis side during WW2 is not new. If the war had ended with a victory of the axis nations their fate would have been the same as the rest of the European Jews...

http://www.loyno.edu/~spsgh/images/crematorium.jpg

[mustamato]

The fact that there were Jews fighting on the axis side during WW2 is not new. If the war had ended with a victory of the axis nations their fate would have been the same as the rest of the European Jews...

http://www.loyno.edu/~spsgh/images/crematorium.jpg

And then you woke up? There is a difference between allied war propaganda and their version in the history books. So I suggest you to actually read what I wrote; "Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative."

The finnish authorities didn´t send any finnish jews to Germany and I don´t understand why they should have done it anyway. Finland was neither occupied by Germany nor a allied, Finland was co-belligerent with a common enemy, the Soviet Union. Finland got important supplies from Germany to feed the civilian population, and weapons to the army. And the germans got a "northern front" during Operation Barbarossa which kept three russian armies in the north that could have been sent to face the germans in the south instead. Finland took back what was lost during the Winter war and established a "buffert" to have something to give back to the Soviet Union during peace negotiations later on. The finns did not continue their attack despite german demands. In example Leningrad would have been fokked if the finns (in the north) would have assisted the germans. But this was not done since the finnish leadership didn´t share the same dreams as the germans nor did they have to obey the germans. The german intention was to give the area of Leningrad to the finns after the war so the state of Finland wasn´t going to dissapear anywhere just because the germans won the war.

So why the finnish jews that proudly served their motherland and also were protected by the finnish authorities and the (non-political) army would have ended up dead outside Finland is a mystery for me.

_________________________________________

By the way, a question to you jews. Were the finnish jews betraying the other jews out in the world while simply not refusing to co-operate with the germans?

[Haiw]

"Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative."
To be honest I don't find that very surprising; most normal German soldiers were no hardcore Nazis and simply considered Jews as normal people... Of course the SS units and all were a whole different story, but the regular conscript at the fronts propably wasn't much different at side of the conflict.

[mustamato]

Here is another finnish chap that co-operated with the germans and got away with it. Oiva "Oippa" Tuominen, a finnish airplane mechanic that somehow got to show his skills and later on even advanced to a figher ace that shot down 44 enemy planes during the war. And he happened to be a finnish gypsy while doing it. He was also the Finnish Air Force's first Knight of the Mannerheim Order.

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/tuomin4.jpg

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/tuomin7.jpg

There is a funny story about him, during a dogfight over the Gulf of Finland debris from his kill hit his plane and he landed at a Luftwaffe base in Tallin, Estonia. Unfortunately the base was under a Soviet aerial attack. He saw a Luftwaffe Ju 52 taxiing toward the end of the runway and made a dash at it. As the Ju was turning at the end of the runway for takeoff, Tuominen began to bang at the door with his fists. As soon as a surprised German airman opened the door, the Finnish pilot pushed himself in and asked in German where the plane was heading. He was told that the destination was Pori, Finland, where Luftflotte 5 had a big maintenance depot. The stranded pilot got a ride roughly in the right direction.



"Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative."
To be honest I don't find that very surprising; most normal German soldiers were no hardcore Nazis and simply considered Jews as normal people... Of course the SS units and all were a whole different story, but the regular conscript at the fronts propably wasn't much different at side of the conflict.

Of course, but say that to the Hollywood directors :)

[California Joe]

You all need to take a deep breath and relax.

Guys living in Finland who happen to be Jews take up arms against psycho Joseph Stalin and the huge Soviet Army that is invading THEIR country.

What the hell is so hard to understand about that?

Soldiers fight for their friends and families against invaders. Not for some esoteric amorphous political alliance that has nothing to do with their lives at that very moment.

[Haiw]

True...the only reason the Finnish were at the Axis side in the first place was just to get back the lands the Russians took from them in the Winter War. As far as I know they didn't really give a **** about the German plans, politics or ideologies, right?

[mustamato]

True...the only reason the Finnish were at the Axis side in the first place was just to get back the lands the Russians took from them in the Winter War. As far as I know they didn't really give a **** about the German plans, politics or ideologies, right?

The finnish chief in command back in the days was baron C.G.E Mannerheim, he was a russian general on the eastern front during world war 1 so I guess he knew them quite well. In general I think the finnish leadership wasn´t all too convinced over the fact that the germans could actually win the war, not even before Stalingrad. Not attacking Leningrad is a example of that.

During the russian summer offensive of 1944 the finns promised the germans to not sue for armistice before the germans, and as a "thank you" the finns got huge supplies of important modern weapons as Panzerfausts, StuG´s and so forth, also german Luftwaffe units were sent to Finland for help. However the finnish president Risto Ryti had made that promice "personally", so Mannerheim became president instead and sued for a armistice with Soviet Union after that the Red Army had been stopped at the battle of Tali-Ihantala (50.000 finns vs. 150.000 ruskies) and Stalin decided that he needed the troops in the chase for Berlin.

Signing the armistice the finns promised to get rid of the germans in the north, 9 divisions of 214.000 soldiers of them, driving them out to Norway. This is called "Lapin sota" or the "Lapland war". At the first this was a "fake war", the germans retreated and the finns followed after. This had to be done to lure the Soviets. The germans needed their divisions down south and the finns didn´t want Soviet troops on finnish soil. However the war soon became a real one. Mainly because of two reasons. The germans trying to take the strategic finnish island Suursaari in the Gulf of Finland but being repulsed with large casualties, and finnish troops in the north not playing the rules of the fake war and actually killing germans and taking them to prisoners (of course the ordinary grunts thought it was a real war), the germans also got somewhat pissed of because of the actions ordered by the finnish general Hjalmar Siilasvuo that didn´t like the germans at all. This war however shows a bit that the finns were not really interested in the germans plans, but just their own survival as a independent state.

Pictures from the finnish-german Lapland War 1944-45:

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/AavasaksaR%E4j%E4ytettyMaantieRautatieSilta.jpg
Because of the finnish "betrayal" Hitler ordered that everything
in northern Finland was to be destroyed. The germans destroyed
over 18000 houses, and about 750 bridges. And planted mines
that killed finnish civilians for decades afterwards.

http://www.koulukanava.fi/historia/ww2/jatkosot/lsota.gif
Germans retreating north 1944-45, followed by the finns

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/SuursaariJaKaatunutSaksalainen.jpg
Dead german soldier on the Suursaari Island in the Gulf of Finland,
the germans trying to take this island with force was one the incidents
that made the agreed "fake war" to become a real war.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/MiinaanAjanutSuomalainenKuorma-auto.jpg
Finnish truck has made friend with a german mine.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/SaksalaisiaSotavankeja.jpg
Germans taken POW by the finns. The soviets demanded
that all german prisoners were to be handed over to them,
and so they were. Poor bastards. Everyone of them probably
was killed or died in some camp in Siberia.

http://www.alavus.fi/perinnehuone/Erkki4.jpg
Finnish T-34´s (captured in the previous war) chasing
the germans.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/RovaniemiPartioKaupunginL%E4hell%E4.jpg
Finnish soldiers on patrol outside Rovaniemi. The largest town
in Lapland, this was burnt down by the germans. Only one building
was unharmed, and I think it was a hospital.

[Kicius]

Yes, relax.

I don't know any European nation which didn't colaborate with Germans at all. Lots of them had their own Freiwiligen SS Division (or Waffen der SS Division). There were thousands of spies, informants and collaboartors in each country.

Should we blame them all?

[S'13]

The fact that there were Jews fighting on the axis side during WW2 is not new. If the war had ended with a victory of the axis nations their fate would have been the same as the rest of the European Jews...

http://www.loyno.edu/~spsgh/images/crematorium.jpg

And then you woke up? There is a difference between allied war propaganda and their version in the history books. So I suggest you to actually read what I wrote; "Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative."

The finnish authorities didn´t send any finnish jews to Germany and I don´t understand why they should have done it anyway. Finland was neither occupied by Germany nor a allied, Finland was co-belligerent with a common enemy, the Soviet Union. Finland got important supplies from Germany to feed the civilian population, and weapons to the army. And the germans got a "northern front" during Operation Barbarossa which kept three russian armies in the north that could have been sent to face the germans in the south instead. Finland took back what was lost during the Winter war and established a "buffert" to have something to give back to the Soviet Union during peace negotiations later on. The finns did not continue their attack despite german demands. In example Leningrad would have been fokked if the finns (in the north) would have assisted the germans. But this was not done since the finnish leadership didn´t share the same dreams as the germans nor did they have to obey the germans. The german intention was to give the area of Leningrad to the finns after the war so the state of Finland wasn´t going to dissapear anywhere just because the germans won the war.

So why the finnish jews that proudly served their motherland and also were protected by the finnish authorities and the (non-political) army would have ended up dead outside Finland is a mystery for me.

_________________________________________

By the way, a question to you jews. Were the finnish jews betraying the other jews out in the world while simply not refusing to co-operate with the germans?

Finland is well known for protecting it's Jewish citizens at the time of the war, however I doubt the Finnish government would have been able to protect it's Jewish citizens after the war if the Germans had achieved victory.

[mustamato]

Finland is well known for protecting it's Jewish citizens at the time of the war, however I doubt the Finnish government would have been able to protect it's Jewish citizens after the war if the Germans had achieved victory.

And what is that claim based on?

[S'13]

Finland is well known for protecting it's Jewish citizens at the time of the war, however I doubt the Finnish government would have been able to protect it's Jewish citizens after the war if the Germans had achieved victory.

And what is that claim based on?

This is from the English translation of the Wannsee Protocol - the transcript of the conference:


Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final
solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows
among the individual countries:

Country- Number

A. Germany proper- 131,800
Austria- 43,700
Eastern territories- 420,000
General Government- 2,284,000
Bialystok- 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia- 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia- 3,500
Lithuania- 34,000
Belgium- 43,000
Denmark- 5,600
France / occupied territory- 165,000
unoccupied territory- 700,000
Greece- 69,600
Netherlands- 160,800
Norway- 1,300

B. Bulgaria- 48,000
England- 330,000
Finland- 2,300
Ireland- 4,000
Italy including Sardinia- 58,000
Albania- 200
Croatia- 40,000
Portugal- 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia- 342,000
Sweden- 8,000
Switzerland- 18,000
Serbia- 10,000
Slovakia- 88,000
Spain- 6,000
Turkey (European portion)- 55,500
Hungary- 742,800
USSR- 5,000,000
Ukraine- 2,994,684
White Russia excluding Bialystok- 446,484


Total over 11,000,000

One must ask himself why the Germans placed Finland on the list if they weren't planing to exterminate the Jewish inhabitants there...

[mustamato]

Finland is well known for protecting it's Jewish citizens at the time of the war, however I doubt the Finnish government would have been able to protect it's Jewish citizens after the war if the Germans had achieved victory.

And what is that claim based on?

This is from the English translation of the Wannsee Protocol - the transcript of the conference:


Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final
solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows
among the individual countries:

Country- Number

A. Germany proper- 131,800
Austria- 43,700
Eastern territories- 420,000
General Government- 2,284,000
Bialystok- 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia- 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia- 3,500
Lithuania- 34,000
Belgium- 43,000
Denmark- 5,600
France / occupied territory- 165,000
unoccupied territory- 700,000
Greece- 69,600
Netherlands- 160,800
Norway- 1,300

B. Bulgaria- 48,000
England- 330,000
Finland- 2,300
Ireland- 4,000
Italy including Sardinia- 58,000
Albania- 200
Croatia- 40,000
Portugal- 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia- 342,000
Sweden- 8,000
Switzerland- 18,000
Serbia- 10,000
Slovakia- 88,000
Spain- 6,000
Turkey (European portion)- 55,500
Hungary- 742,800
USSR- 5,000,000
Ukraine- 2,994,684
White Russia-
excluding Bialystok- 446,484


Total over 11,000,000

One must ask himself why the Germans placed Finland on the list if they weren't planing to exterminate the Jewish inhabitants there...

Well, I also see countries like Sweden and Ireland on the list. Was these supposed to be occupied? I doubt it. And "extermination" is a strange word to use since you can´t find it in the protocoll. Endlösung could just as well mean the creation of a jewish state.

[S'13]

Well, I also see countries like Sweden and Ireland on the list. Was these supposed to be occupied? I doubt it.

Now your arguing with what's writing in the protocoll :roll:


And "extermination" is a strange word to use since you can´t find it in the protocoll. Endlösung could just as well mean the creation of a jewish state.

Final solution according to the dictionary (and history books)- The Nazi program of exterminating Jews during the Third Reich.

The Nazis used many interesting words to describe their crimes (liquidation for example)...

[mustamato]

Now your arguing with what's writing in the protocoll :roll:

Am I?


Final solution according to the dictionary (and history books)- The Nazi program of exterminating Jews during the Third Reich.

Well, you still can´t find that written in the Wannsee protocol. It has only been suggested afterwards that it was "written in code" and so forth, but it still doesn´t say that the jews in the non-occupied countries should have been killed. In context, also the german ideas about the creation of a jewish state should be mentioned.

Although the germans probably did know all they needed to know about the finnish jews due to the trading of information. Also the germans did know about the swedish jews, names and so forth because the swedish secret police had in exchange for some other information traded that with Finland, and Finland then traded the list of those swedish jews to Germany.

[S'13]

Am I?

Yes.


Well, you still can´t find that written in the Wannsee protocol.

Well the word 'final solution' is mentioned.


It has only been suggested afterwards that it was "written in code" and so forth, but it still doesn´t say that the jews in the non-occupied countries should have been killed.


Your right, it's not written that the Jews in the non-occupied countries should have been killed but it's enough to see what the 'final solution' meant in the occupied countries...


In context, also the german ideas about the creation of a jewish state should be mentioned.

It also should be mentioned that this idea never was executed and it doesn't look as if the Nazis were planing to do so as their murdering of milions of Jews was going very well.

[volfram]

In German wehrmacht serwed many half-jews,some of them as high rank officers.Here is interesting linkhttp://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

[radon]

The finnish authorities didn´t send any finnish jews to Germany and I don´t understand why they should have done it anyway.

Yes they did. A small number and those people were, somehow soviet related, so it is not clear were they handed to the germans because of being a jew. Simon Wiesenthal center "asked for investigations" Finland because of that.

Finland also had some "concentration camps" in russian territory which was conquered from the russians. The name should be read read literally. These camps were propably not very nice, but they had not much to do with extermination and holocaust and such.

Sorry is that the estonian volunteers were let to the soviets. If i was in charge i would have personally sent them somehow somewhere elsewhere. The finnish communists again have always something to do with this also :fork:

[mustamato]

The finnish authorities didn´t send any finnish jews to Germany and I don´t understand why they should have done it anyway.

Yes they did. A small number and those people were, somehow soviet related, so it is not clear were they handed to the germans because of being a jew. Simon Wiesenthal center "asked for investigations" Finland because of that.

Finland also had some "concentration camps" in russian territory which was conquered from the russians. The name should be read read literally. These camps were propably not very nice, but they had not much to do with extermination and holocaust and such.

Sorry is that the estonian volunteers were let to the soviets. If i was in charge i would have personally sent them somehow somewhere elsewhere. The finnish communists again have always something to do with this also :fork:

If I remember it correctly it was the secret police that arranged the sad fate of those 8 jews the finns sent to Germany. With "the authorities" I meant a bit higher up in the hierarchy. And as you said, somehow Soviet related. I guess "trades" of information and other things was quite usual during the war, both incoming and outgoing. In my own guess they were sent to Germany for something they knew, not for being jews. Could be wrong though.

About the Soviet POW´s sent to Germany there was also probably jews among them. But it is quite important to here remember that Finland did not have the capacity to take care of them, during the winter of -41 over 4000 of them died because of that. Later on they got it better though. But at first when the conditions for them was really bad some of them (a couple of thousand I think) were sent to Germany. I don´t think nobody asked if they were jews or not when being sent away.

About the finnish concentration camps in eastern Karelia, not a very proud moment in finnish history no. And I think the correct translation of siirtoleiri would be "transfer camp" rather than konzentrationslager (which would be keskitysleiri). Not even slightly comparable to "concentration camps" in other places. But kids of non-finnish/karelian heritage not having the same benefits and getting the same education as the finnish/karelian kids is shamefull.

There is a famous photo taken by Soviet war correspondent Galina Sanko taken in eastern Karelia after that the finnish troops had left the area. Even though the kids look like they had enough food the photo was used in propaganda purposes against the finns. The kids stand behind barbed wire and above their heads is a sign with the text in finnish and russian: "Transfer camp = Entrance to the camp and talking thru the fence is with the threat of being shot, forbidden".

[radon]

About the finnish concentration camps in eastern Karelia, not a very proud moment in finnish history no. And I think the correct translation of siirtoleiri would be "transfer camp" rather than konzentrationslager (which would be keskitysleiri). Not even slightly comparable to "concentration camps" in other places. But kids of non-finnish/karelian heritage not having the same benefits and getting the same education as the finnish/karelian kids isshamefull. .

Well they are often called "concentration camps". And people would connect "transfer camps" to "concentration camps" anyway... Literally there is no difference between "concentration camp" and "transfer camp". In the beginning there was likely difference in the meaning of the word. But what do you mean by "not getting the same education"? You mean the time they were locked up? well that was not long, so i doubt that had big influence on the education of those kids.