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venture160
04-17-2003, 12:45 AM
was doing my usual web cruising when I came across some articles relating to war crimes and the Special Forces. If what these articles say is true.. then our forces may be going beyond the realm of "unconventional"

from: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2002/11/8cares.html

"I recently got some idea after reading of the Irish filmmaker Jamie Doran's documentary Massacre in Mazar, which in June was shown to the European Parliament. One international human rights lawyer, present at Doran's screening, claimed that the film provides "prima facie evidence of serious war crimes" that followed the November collapse of the Taliban's stronghold in northern Afghanistan. That something monstrous happened around Mazar there appears little doubt. Mass graves have been uncovered, filled with bones no older than a few months. Doran alleges they are remnants of roughly 3,000 Taliban prisoners of war. The film contains numerous interviews with Afghan irregulars who claim that what happened was no simple score-settling orchestrated by the Northern Alliance. "I was a witness," one Afghan says, "when an American soldier broke one prisoner's neck and poured acid on others. The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them." Other POWs, the film charges, were shot in the head while Special Forces watched idly."

from Interview with Jamie Doran, director of Massacre at Mazar
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jun2002/dora-j17.shtml

"WSWS: Regarding the US involvement in what took place, could I ask about the witnesses who appear in the film?

JD: Three members of the Afghan military appear in the film, two ordinary soldiers and one general. Then there is one taxi diver who witnessed three containers with blood pouring from them. He said his hair stood on end and that it was horrific. Then two of the truck drivers testify who were forced to take the containers into the desert. Based on the statements of the witnesses, the total number of those transported was at the very least 1,500, but more likely the total is up to 3,000."

"WSWS: In your opinion, in such an operation involving the transportation and elimination of up to 3,000 people, is it possible that the American troops did not have knowledge or give their consent?

JD: You want my opinion? My answer is no. One hundred and fifty Americans soldiers were present at Sheberghan prison. That does not include CIA personnel. In my opinion, it would be highly unlikely that they could remain unaware of something taking place of such magnitude.

WSWS: In your opinion, how high up in the US army chain of command does complicity in these events extend?

JD: I repeat. When you have 150 American soldiers and a number of CIA personnel in the vicinity of Sheberghan prison, it would be extremely strange if they did not have knowledge of these atrocities taking place."

more from the interview:

"WSWS: In the film, witnesses say that American military personnel were involved in the torture and shooting of Afghan prisoners.

JD: In the film, accusations are made that torture was carried out by American soldiers, but the major accusation in terms of the numbers involved is that an American officer told one of the witnesses to get the containers out of the town of Sheberghan before satellite pictures could be taken. Also, one of the drivers talked of 30 to 40 American soldiers being present at the location of the murder and burial of survivors in the desert.

WSWS: Is there any evidence to point to the participation of American soldiers in shooting victims in the desert?

JD: I have absolutely no evidence that American troops were involved in the shooting that took place in the desert. At the same time, there are other witnesses to the mass grave in the desert. There are human rights activists who found the mass grave in the desert even before me, and they now describe my film as ?the missing link.? They found the grave and, under the auspices of the UN, dug up a small section of earth containing 15 bodies. They estimate that in that one section of the desert there were about a thousand bodies. They too are calling for the grave to be protected, because at the moment it is being protected by no one. So the evidence can be easily tampered with."

more info :
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13540
http://mai.flora.org/forum/38168

venture160
04-17-2003, 01:31 AM
here's some more WARNING:graphic images of death and carnage

http://www.phrusa.org/research/afghanistan/report_graves_photos.html

http://noleaders.net/anok/news/masskillings.htm

Another Afghan soldier states, ?They cut off fingers, they cut tongues, they cut their hair and cut their beards. Sometimes they did it for pleasure; they took the prisoners outside and beat them up and then returned them to the prison. But sometimes they were never returned and they disappeared, the prisoner disappeared. I was there.?

JKD
04-17-2003, 03:24 AM
LMAO!! rofl
Of course it's not true! Look at the source - The interview is from the World Socialist web site. Not exactly a source for unbiased reliable reporting.
Pouring acid on people? Cutting off fingers and toungues? Ok, beards I don't doubt, but that other stuff is just too retarded to take even remotely seriously. It is entertaining to see the type of crap the anti-America people feed themselves though.

JohnJohn
04-17-2003, 03:43 AM
a film tailored to suit the needs of "human rights" activists who were neither there, nor have a complete understanding or knowledge of the incident.

I bet good ol'e fat stinking stupid ass bastard Michael Moore had something to do with it :lol:

They see the dead, and who are the first people that they blame? the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. These people have an agenda, they report what they want, as long as it suits their needs.

Amnesty International is a joke, and so are most of these "human rights" advocates. Especially the UN Human Rights Commission, headed by none other than our great ally Lybia rofl

GearGod
04-17-2003, 06:54 AM
So theyre making a movie about how SF killed/tortured 3000 people? Do they have proof that they actually did this? Wouldnt DOD disaproove and ban it because it misleads the world?

Mal3
04-17-2003, 09:34 AM
Wouldnt DOD disaproove and ban it because it misleads the world?
_________________
goarmy.com DEFEND FREEDOM!!!!!!!

Am I the only one that sees the contradiction?

Anyways, news such as these shouldn't be taken too lightly, but of course you should consider the source and take it with a grain of salt.

hood
04-17-2003, 10:54 AM
The whole documentary was posted on internet newsgroups, and I watched it. There are a couple of things that stood out in my mind. First, witnesses over there are extremely sketchy. If it's one thing that the short series on ABC showed, is that these people (the Afghans) lie like there was no tomorrow. They exaggerate to no end and everything has to be some grand story. Secondly, in the documentary, they kept showing all these supposed graves in the desert, but almost no actual remains that they said they dug up. The part that I don't understand, is how did all those bodies that were buried in the desert, which has incredible preserving effects, so totally and completely decompose and desintegrate the very few remains that they actually showed? There's hardly anything left but some cloth and a couple scattered bones that had been picked so clean, they could have been put through the wash cycle. Wouldn't there be more proof left? Wouldn't there be a lot more 'remains' of 3000 people still there? I know this sounds morbid, but that's roughly 450,000 pounds of flesh that supposedly vanished into thin air. That either makes for some insanely fat buzzards, or they weren't ever there.

almighty_papa
04-17-2003, 11:22 AM
BS detector set to high.

somebody dug up some OLD graves.

Smoothie104
04-17-2003, 11:34 AM
In Vietnam the Green Berets used to cut the ears off thier kills and make necklaces. The viet cong used to mutliate the bodies of dead americans, so we stated doing the same. There are plenty of first hand accounts of cutting off thier genitals and stuffing them in the corpses mouth.

I spent some time talking to some WWII vets about a year ago, I was asking them thier opinions on some of the differences in what is acceptable warfare between thier time and now. such as in WWI when the armastice was signed, some of the troops came out of the trenches and crossed no mans land to celebrate together. In WWII it was ok to bomb cites and civilian targets to complete rubble, but now we take every precaution not to hit civilians. I brought up the mutilation of the dead in vietnam and asked if they thought that was going on in WWII, I was told that it was extremely rare, but that some had heard stories or seen US troops doing it in the Pacific theatre.

I have no doubt that the article in question here is 98% BS, but remember, War is not as glamorus as Hollywood wants you to think. Not everyone on the "good guys" side is noble. Its a Killing Business, thats how you survive. Sometimes you need revenge or payback. We'd all like to think that we could simply operate and do the job and come home to the white picket fence and play catch with the dog. But a lot of people see the horrors and discover things about themselves they never would have other wise. I lot of guys simply go off the deep end, sometimes forever. It's eaiser to Kill the badguys if you think of them as less than human. More akin to rats or pests. History shows us that. Most of the time, it goes to far.

On a recent photography trip to the Former Yugoslavia and the Balkans, I saw hundreds of beautiful young girls, all with scars on their faces, and most with young children. Mutiliated and raped during the war. A Very sad state of affairs.

War is not Hollywood. War is Hell.

Mal3
04-17-2003, 11:41 AM
Indeed, I've heard some accounts about mutilations and torture in Vietnam. Maybe it should come as no surprise.

Supposedly in the Princess Gate rescue the SAS practically executed some of the hostage takers. I have little qualms about that, they stated their reasons and in my opinion they were good enough.

Of course, I don't have to do their jobs, so me having no qualms may not count for much.

Royal
04-17-2003, 02:41 PM
On a recent photography trip to the Former Yugoslavia and the Balkans, I saw hundreds of beautiful young girls, all with scars on their faces, and most with young children. Mutiliated and raped during the war. A Very sad state of affairs.

Where? I've spent more time than I care to remember in the Balkans (7 tours) over the last 10 years and I've seen maybe 2 such cases in that time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying atrocities didn't happen, they did, but often not at the scale reported in the western press (or sadly in many cases the victims were killed). Again systematic rape happened (and indeed still does) but hundreds, all with scars??

Duke
04-17-2003, 02:48 PM
Journalism 101 KNOW THE AUTHOR...Tom Bissell an author and writer for SALON Magazine--very liberal.

Zach R.
04-17-2003, 09:50 PM
Super liberal.The liberals havean agenda to blame America first.Ok,here's another stupid story."In late November 2001,during Operation Enduring Freedom,the British SAS had intel which could lead them straight to Bin Laden.As the British commander tryed to get authorization for the mission from the Americans,were turned down.The US wanted to take full responsibility for the capture of Bin Laden.And because of this terrible mistake made by President Bush,Bin Laden still runs free."I got that bit in the Washington Post,a highly liberal news paper.As you can guess,this story is a load of Bull Sh!t.Just goes to show you,blame America first.

budanski
04-17-2003, 09:56 PM
compliments to the Michael Moore Production Studios.

yellowking
04-17-2003, 11:01 PM
Revolutionary Anarchist Mom and Baby League (RAMBL)...LOL...that's where I get all MY parenting tips!! rofl

http://noleaders.net/anok/news/rambl.htm

Chris196
04-18-2003, 12:26 AM
BS

Just look at the photographic evidence they provide. You can count up, what, a dozen skeletal remains maybe. Dead bodies in Afghanistan????? :o Holy crap, say it isnt so?

Chops
04-18-2003, 08:49 PM
Zach

The timing is wrong of the tale you tell but it is correct in most of the other aspects.

Rgds

Chops

fng
04-26-2003, 06:58 PM
And they wonder why the U.S. refuses to support a world court. There would be one fabricated story after another that we would have to defend ourselves against.

StarvingStudent47
04-26-2003, 07:50 PM
I'm no forensics expert, but bodies don't decay like that in a couple weeks or even months. My guess is that these corpses and skeletal remains are from the Soviet-Afghan War.

EliteWolf
04-27-2003, 01:48 AM
honestly why should anybody care, do i need to bring out the pics of 9/11 again?

Mal3
04-27-2003, 12:50 PM
Seemingly some things matter and others don't. 9/11 obviously matters to some while the possibility of other atrocities just don't matter.

Now, I was shocked, angered and saddened by the disgusting, cowardly and unscrupulous acts of terrorism directed against innocent people on 9/11. However, if someone thinks that posting pictures of the aftermath will justify anything, then an the next thing we'll hear is an Iraqi saying "Do you want to see pictures from Baghdad?" to justify whatever he wants to do.

I like to think the difference between us and them, on one hand the people who believe in freedom, justice and law on the other hand and terrorists who deliberately target civilians on the other, is that one side believes the end justifies the means and the other doesn't.

martinexsquaddie
05-14-2003, 11:30 AM
Massacre and Mayhem fairly SOP for miltia forces in Afganistan
if special forces knew anything about it probably nothing they could do if they knew about it.
Amnesty International are Hated by the US goverment the British goverment
the Iraqi goverment the Irainians the russians the chinese etc etc

they are not Bull**** Human rights are important when they are abused somebody needs to point it out even if its difficult or dangerous

Sabre
05-14-2003, 12:18 PM
It is possible that the remains are from the time of the Mazar action.

If the bone seen on the desert floor were always exposed, then it would not be unlikely that birds etc. would pick the flesh off them. It takes a few weeks to a month to bleach bones, also dependant on other factors.

The less plesant remains could be fairly recent as well.

A body that has been enbalmed and put in a casket (like a normal burial) could take decades to decay. If it has been burried without preparation, then a year could turn it 'skeletal'.

As for an unprotected body, with open wounds, the time would be much less.

If it is on the surface, with wounds, exposed to heat/flies/buzzards, then a week could see it stripped to the bone.

So, it is possible that the remains are from Mazar. Who killed them is another matter.