Bullpup. Qualified opinion requested

[miguelencanarias]

Have you used both bullpup and 'standart'? If so, which one do you prefer?

I am asking because I have never used a bullpup rifle in my life, but it always seemed to me... you know, weird, kind of unnatural, holding a rifle with both arms stretched out. It looked to me unbalanced, uncomfortable.

But again, I have never used a bullpup so I am most likely to be wrong.

That's why I am asking those here who actually use them, like Brits or Austrian, for instance.

Thanks in advance.

[Hydro]

Have only ever used a bullpup, the SA80. I quite like it, it feels like it "plugs" into your shoulder. I only really notice the rear-heaviness when I hold it in one hand. You don't stretch your arms out very much, because of the design the weapons are always usually quite short, another feature that I like.

I've held and mucked about with M16's (an old pre-A1 version!) and AK47's (never fired), I found the AK very uncomfortable, especially the folding stock version. The M16 was quite nice, very light, and all the controls are easy to hand (The SA80's are a bit scattered), and not as unwieldy as I'd expected.

[miguelencanarias]

Excellent! Thanks for the very informative reply!!

[Frens]

as I said in another topic I have fired a Steyr AUG A1 (the shot version) but I didn't like it at all....I still prefer my AR15. beside it jammed ofthen (FTF & FTE,even chambering the first round) the steyr was too unbalanced to the rear, also it was uncomfortable to change the magazine and to release the bolt. it's too complicated compared to my AR.
it was funny to shoot and the recoil was about the same of the AR. the barrel was shorter (16'' vs 20'') but the weight was about the same and it was so short that it seemed heavier to me.

just my 2cents experience

[RecceGuy]

Must admit I did like my L1A1 SLR but find my L85A2 a lot more accurate, so long as you have your sling fitted correctly it seems to hang in just the right position ready for use. I know it was slated quite often and still is by people who are neither qualified or experienced enough to give an honest opinion as to it's pros and cons, but in all honesty I've only ever had problems with the magazines on the A1 version. The controls can be a bit fiddly to anyone not familiar with it but once they're mastered they're a doddle. There's better weapons out there, but hey you work with what you have and I'm quite happy.

[Catch22]

I only fooled around bullpups never had chance to fire them. I like their ergonomics (especially F2000 - yeah it feels like supersoaker or some kitchen toy - but I love it after playing with some verisons), alas when it comes to operation I feel like AK eastern school person. BullPups indeed "sit in" and shoulder nicely but other factors (like failure drills) make me prefer classic layout. Both options seem fine to me but I naturally tend to lean towards the one I know in use.

[gregb]

One thing i found with the L85 is that its quite a comfertable weap to TAB with and generally live with in terms of its design.

[Hydro]

One thing i found with the L85 is that its quite a comfertable weap to TAB with and generally live with in terms of its design.

I find it quite the opposite when tabbing, my hands feel too close together (one on pistol grip other on handguard) and I can't get a decent "swing" going to keep a good rhythm. Prefer tabbing with only one hand holding the weapon by the pistol grip, but then I get screamed at by DS for not having weapon in a ready position.

[miguelencanarias]

Although the word 'tab' brings me bad memories of the most stupid retard ever to pest this forum, I am compelled to ask: what does it actually mean? it is probably a stupid question, but indulge me, I am a Spaniard and I don't master your language.

[Sabre]

TAB = Tactical Advance to Battle

yes, yes, yes....i know.....spot the spotter! (I'll get me coat)


As for the bullpup/normal thing, SA80 is a comfortable weapon to use, although it is a little rear-heavy with a full mag on. It is generally a heavy weapon for its size. M16 style weapons are more ergonomic and still fairly comfortable. Long story short...either's good, it comes down to personal preference, how reliable/accurate the weapon is, and of course which weapon you get issued!

[Hydro]

TAB = Tactical Advance to Battle

yes, yes, yes....i know.....spot the spotter! (I'll get me coat)



Hmmm, if I spot the spotter...does that make me a spotter? :|

[gregb]

T.A.B - In reference to my previous post I ment advancing on foot ( walking , jogging or running ) while carrying the weapon ( L85 )

****ing hell that sounds Gay ........

[RecceGuy]

Only if the spotter you spotted spots you first!!!!!! :lol:

[miguelencanarias]

Lads, the level of conversation has lowered a little, won't you say?

[Hydro]

Lads, the level of conversation has lowered a little, won't you say?


You'll realise the conversation has lowered when a Brit starts talking about shovel recces....


Back on topic, I like bullpups :)

[RecceGuy]

Yup it's called a sense of humour and extreme childishness, both excellent qualities for a soldier to have!!!!!

[miguelencanarias]

Hey, I didn't say it as a bad thing! it is ok with me...

[RecceGuy]

Wasn't having a go mate. Tell you what though when you stick a UGL on it the L85 weighs a f**k of a lot.

[Duvdevan]

I shot the TAVOR 1st Gen (1 time) and the Steyr AUG 2nd Gen from a friend of mine.
Nothing special to say, except there is more weight on the back side, the feeling is different. i didn't have any malfunction (but we only shot +/-1000 cartridges)
BTW: i don't like too much the AUG trigger, but thats just me...

[miguelencanarias]

Are bullpups balanced? isn't it too heavy on the back?

[bluffcove]

the L85 A1 is balanced on the pistol grip. and can be held level with one hand - RSM beastings always a pleasure!

A full mag will make it heavier towards the rear, as it empties it becomes heavier toward the front but never front heavy, I have been told by an idiot-(that i cant stand) this is designed into the weapon to prevent muzzle climb, Personally I think the weight of the weapon makes "gimics" like the transference of weight as the magazine empties rather unlikely. having only ever shot the Cadet GP, various shotguns GPMG, LSW and L85, Im unable to comment on its performance as compared to standard layout rifles.

Tabbing is strange, especially if required to keep it in the "port arms" putting a packet of biscuit browns into your right chest pocket and resting the magazine on this helps immensly with keeping the stock snug in the shoulder whilst patrolling. but jogging, or running does jsut wear out your arms from what I can tell as it is difficult to pump your arms with the hands being so close together.

[SMGLee]

I like my Steyr AUGA2 but I love my M4....

With that being said.

Bullpup has some excellent advantages

1. short overall length compare to a same length barreled standard rifle.
2. rearward weight bias which tend to chnage the recoil charactistics. the felt recoil is much less and the gun is much easier to shoot more accurately and more controllable in full auto.

But....
1. clunky magazines changes
2. a very bad trigger pull due the design.
3. can shoot from support side when operating under MOUT.
4. less modularity vs. a RAS M4 but things are changing as we speak.

Both have merits and I would fight with both platform but if I can choose, I would take a M4 anyday.

[Michael RVR]

I could be wrong but i believe none of those 'but's' would be a problem with the Tavor also. ;)

I've only ever used the AUG (or F88 as we call it), so i don't have any other ar's to compare it to.

It is quite short though which i suppose would be an advantage, whilst it maintains a +500mm barrell which is something an M4 cannot do. p-)

[miguelencanarias]

How come there is less recoil in a bullpup than in a normal configuration?

[SMGLee]

How come there is less recoil in a bullpup than in a normal configuration?

All the weight is in the ass... and all the movement is near the rear also. it makes for a very stable platform.

I shot the first Gen Taver, it was not as impressive, I rated on par with the AUG. Mag change is still not as fast as a M4. still can't shoot from support side.

FN 2000 is the only bullpup to allow for a strong and support side shooting without messing with the gun. but 2000 have not been proven reliable.

[Abolith]

I have fired both bullpups and "normal" and I have to say that I much prefer the standard rifle configuration, just feels more natural to me.

on a side note I did find the P90 to be a bit short but still comfortable to use, maybe because of the hand placement?? anyways thats my non-professional opinion.

[GazB]

Are bullpups balanced? isn't it too heavy on the back?

Depends upon what you mean by balanced. Most of my rifles are balanced forward so the weight is distributed between my hands and I am used to that. Have never fired a bullpup weapon, nor have I handled one so I can't say from personal experience but the concept of reducing the length of the weapon while keeping as long a barrel as possible is a great idea.


A full mag will make it heavier towards the rear, as it empties it becomes heavier toward the front but never front heavy, I have been told by an idiot-(that i cant stand) this is designed into the weapon to prevent muzzle climb, Personally I think the weight of the weapon makes "gimics" like the transference of weight as the magazine empties rather unlikely.

An inline stock (ie having the muzzle in line with the stock) makes more difference to muzzle climb than weight distribution IMHO.

The Russians have looked at bullpups because with a 40mm grenade launcher and a scope on it the AK-74M becomes rather too front heavy to be comfortable and easy to use.


How come there is less recoil in a bullpup than in a normal configuration?

There isn't. Bullpups are shorter especially when comparing barrel length, but recoil control depends upon whether the recoil line is in line with your shoulder when you fire, the type of ammo you are using, and any muzzlebrake fitted and barrel length.


I have fired both bullpups and "normal" and I have to say that I much prefer the standard rifle configuration, just feels more natural to me.

Of course I have not fired bullpups so I can't compare my thoughts on that, but I have used both western peephole iron sights and the soviet iron sights, and I must say I prefer one over the other. I learned to use the AKs sights first (well actually they were Mosin Nagant rifle sights), so when using the peep sights on the SLR I have trouble. For many that learned on the peep sight will no doubt have a similar problem with the Soviet/Russian type sights too. Not that one is good or better... they are different. I can see the advantages of each, just as the advantages of the bullpup design are fairly obvious too.
I dare say anyone could get used to either and get the job done with either.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Have you used both bullpup and 'standart'? If so, which one do you prefer?

I am asking because I have never used a bullpup rifle in my life, but it always seemed to me... you know, weird, kind of unnatural, holding a rifle with both arms stretched out. It looked to me unbalanced, uncomfortable.

But again, I have never used a bullpup so I am most likely to be wrong.

That's why I am asking those here who actually use them, like Brits or Austrian, for instance.

Thanks in advance.

Apples vs Oranges.

Fords vs Holdens.

One is not better than the other.

Anyone who says otherwise is full of ****.

[Hydro]

Apples vs Oranges.




Apples are better than oranges 'cos you don't have to peel 'em. ;)

People mention the bullpups barrel advantage, a good example of this is the L86A1/2 LSW, that has an excellent barrel length for it's size, it's not even a metre long, yet squeezes in a lovely long barrel that contributes to it's qood accuracy.
Anyone here with any experiece of the AUG heavy barrelled variant?

[Para]

I have used most rifles that have been in use by British Army over the last 50 years. I have found that the SA80-2 is a very accurate rifle, compact and easy to use, and the optical sight is great.


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/LeEnfield/098d1df8.jpg

[Para]

The British LSW


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/LeEnfield/LSW2.jpg

[Para]

The Shorten Version of the SA80



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/LeEnfield/2390a8e7.gif

[Frens]

The Shorten Version of the SA80



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/LeEnfield/2390a8e7.gif

IIRC it was made for tanks crew

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Anyone here with any experiece of the AUG heavy barrelled variant?

Yes.

There is one 24inch HB Steyr AUG at the Combat School in Waiouru left over from the trials in the mid '80s. I have used it a number of times now.

[Hydro]

Yup, it's back again as the L22A1, with Picatinny rails to hang sexy shiny things off. I think tank crews, armoured recce crews and armoured infantry vehicle crewmen are to get it.


Ngati - May sound like a bit of a bone question, but is it like any other heavy barrelled rifle-type LSW? No great shakes as an LMG but a pretty good "marksmans" type weapon?

[miguelencanarias]

The Shorten Version of the SA80



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/LeEnfield/2390a8e7.gif

IIRC it was made for tanks crew

One might wonder whether the optical sight is really necessary in this particular one.

[Name Taken]

i love being british...wankers

Ive only used the L98 (yes haha) and am quite happy with it. Ive noticed the balance thing aswell. I love the sling for it aswell...

heh, I know what you mean about the haha. I got sick of using that thing within weeks so I did my LSW qualification test. Never carried the GP after that! However blanks in the LSW were fun :roll:

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Ngati - May sound like a bit of a bone question, but is it like any other heavy barrelled rifle-type LSW? No great shakes as an LMG but a pretty good "marksmans" type weapon?

Nothing 'bone' about it. It would make a good marksman weapon due to the 24 inch barrel and the bipod. Add a decent optic and it would be excellent. For a while in the mid '90s there was a push to purchase some as sniper support weapons. But with a 'fixed' barrel and a built in stoppage due to the magazine feed it falls short in the LMG/LSW department.

I could just imagine crawling up to a pit to post a grenade, only to hear "STOPPAGE!" at an inopportune moment. :cantbeli:

Give me the comfort of a couple of hundred rounds on a C-9 LSW any day.

[Para]

The shorten version has a Maxim range of 500 yds and is accurate up to 400 yards so the optical sight would be used.

[Sabre]

Hmm, I've never really been convinced by LSWs...

To me they seem to be caught between several types of weapon. Yes, they are capable of supporting fire, but their rate of fire and mag capacity is no more than an L85. Yes, they are accurate, but would it not be better to have a 7.62 marksman rifle like the Yank's M14? It would have greater effect at longer ranges. Yes, it can be used as an assault rifle if needs be due to it's bullpup design, but it isn't well balanced or convenient to use in FIBUA.

Now that L96s are being brought down to platoon level, there isn't a great need to keep them as a section marksman weapon. That idea is good though, perhaps Accuracy International could be persuaded to make a 7.62 semi auto marksman rifle? I for one would like to see that!

[Hydro]

Ngati - May sound like a bit of a bone question, but is it like any other heavy barrelled rifle-type LSW? No great shakes as an LMG but a pretty good "marksmans" type weapon?

Nothing 'bone' about it. It would make a good marksman weapon due to the 24 inch barrel and the bipod. Add a decent optic and it would be excellent. For a while in the mid '90s there was a push to purchase some as sniper support weapons. But with a 'fixed' barrel and a built in stoppage due to the magazine feed it falls short in the LMG/LSW department.

I could just imagine crawling up to a pit to post a grenade, only to hear "STOPPAGE!" at an inopportune moment. :cantbeli:

Give me the comfort of a couple of hundred rounds on a C-9 LSW any day.


I hear that, was chatting to a section commander back when the Minimi was just being phased in, loved the bloody thing. Great little thing for a point man to use, panic mag takes on a whole new meaning with an LMG like that.

LSW's are classic example of jack of all trades and a master of none. Agreed, Sabre, a dedicated 7.62 section marksman weapon would be nice to see, like the Russkies used their SVD's and the Septics with M14's. Some desk jockey would inevitably moan about ammo supply chain, but if L96 is coming to Pln level then there won't be much excuse.

[flanker7]

The Shorten Version of the SA80



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/LeEnfield/2390a8e7.gif

IIRC it was made for tanks crew

One might wonder whether the optical sight is really necessary in this particular one.

Perhaps due to the extremelly short sight radius it would have had otherwise(already short in the L85)

[Flagg]

As far as service rifles go, I've only ever carried a Steyr.

I like the Steyr quite a bit actually. When it was designed it was quite ahead of it's time what with the current rage over vertical grips and optics as standard.

Although time has passed and there are newer bits of flash kit to tart up a rifle like a Xmas tree, the standard Steyr still does a more than capable job of serving my needs at least.

One thing worth mentioning is what was told to me by my grizzly old Cadre who has spent the better part of 20 years in the NZ Army and had a go with the M16, Steyr, and a good play with the SLR on occasion. He told me that life is much easier teaching recruits how to shoot with the Steyr. He said recruits gain proficiency much faster with the Steyr than with previous service rifles....SO in that respect, assuming that to be true, is a big advantage....since the service rifle can be more than just about the individual rifleman, but also about the Army's ability to train "mass marksmanship".

I've fired a wide range of rifles on civvie ranges. Rifles remind me of motorcycles......they're generally all good, with the odd one being incrementally better than others.




There is one 24inch HB Steyr AUG at the Combat School in Waiouru left over from the trials in the mid '80s. I have used it a number of times now.

When you get back would you mind posting that down to PTE Flagg care of 2CANT?





Fords vs Holdens..

Holden! ;)

[RecceGuy]

Yup, it's back again as the L22A1, with Picatinny rails to hang sexy shiny things off. I think tank crews, armoured recce crews and armoured infantry vehicle crewmen are to get it.


Ngati - May sound like a bit of a bone question, but is it like any other heavy barrelled rifle-type LSW? No great shakes as an LMG but a pretty good "marksmans" type weapon?

Only MBT and close recce crews of MBT Regiments are due to get it so far. Medium Recce and Infantry close recce crews are sticking with our A2's as we spend a lot of time off the wagons doing the job. There's also talk of RLC vehicle crews receiving it due to it being ideal for firing from cabs (apparently)!!

[Hydro]

Oh God, RLC doing driveby's in DROPS. Makes for a speedy getaway.

[Little J]

The Shorten Version of the SA80



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/LeEnfield/2390a8e7.gif

IIRC it was made for tanks crew

One might wonder whether the optical sight is really necessary in this particular one.

Perhaps due to the extremelly short sight radius it would have had otherwise(already short in the L85)

Just gonna say that... BTW, are we all aware that the pic is of the carbine that BAe / RO couldnt sell to anyone, not the HK A2 LSW cut-up jobbie.

Anyone here used the carbine or for that matter the FN F2000?

[Para]

I have mainly used the weapons in the British Army but have used a number of other weapons when I have been overseas, but no I have not used the FN 2000. As far as the LSW being a support weapon surely this is no difference this gun to using the Bren Gun, also it means the Army is now using mainly just one type of bullet. This in turn makes logistics far easier and life simpler rather than having half a dozen different calibres to deal out in the correct numbers.

[RecceGuy]

I fired one in Nov last year in Warminster, although it was the H&K jazzed up version with pacatinny rail, adjustable grip and stuff. We had four all with different sights fitted, it was fun to shoot and really easy to control when firing bursts. A thing I found good was when fitted with it's sling it hung just under your arm and was very easy to pull up into a firing position. But it's a bitch to clean in areas.

[flanker7]

As far as I know the LSW was kept in the units equipted with the Minimi for use as a DM rifle or something

[Little J]

I read reports that the original carbine was a bit of a flame thrower, I take it thats not still the case. What other sights did you use? SUSAT, Iron...?

[RecceGuy]

We had a SUSAT, iron, an EOTech and something very similiar to an ACOG but not sure what it was. Found the EOTech very good for snap shooting but just couldn't get the same level of accuracy as the SUSAT. I suppose you get used to what you use.

[ogukuo72]

Well, the SUSAT is a x4 scope while the EOTech is a reflex sight, so it's not surprising. A better comparison would be between the Steyr AUG 1.5 scope vs the EOTech.

[RecceGuy]

Well there you have it from an expert. Not being used to firing weapons with different sights I wouldn't know. So I take it if you fit a reflex sight to your weapon you're not expecting accuracy out beyond what??? 100, 200M??

[futurepilot2004]

Since the only Assualt rifle I`ve fired is the Steyr (fired standard hunting rifles aswell), I can`t really answer your question but I find it extremely comfortable and easy to use.

[mutammim]

Hi I'm currently serving in the Army within the Singapore Armed Forces. Been using the SAR-21 for close to 2 yrs. Did use the M-16A1 during my time as a recruit but converted to the SAR-21 when I was posted as a Regimental Police. I did get a chance to handle the AUG but didn't shoot it though.

What do I think about bullpup, well its more of a love hate relationship. The M-16 is just too long, especially for us Asians. The SAR-21 and AUG feel "right". The built in scope and laser aiming device (at least on the SAR-21) is a god send. Just wish the scope is a red dot type. The recoil, what recoil? The SAR-21 doesn't kick as much as an AR, and I know ARs got low recoil to begin with.

Now the bad. Its freaking heavy. at least 3 kilos when loaded, thats heavier that our SAW, the ultimax. Magazine change is a total bitch but you get used to it, its an ergonomics issue. The mag release and select fire switch is BEHIND and BESIDE of the magazine well respectively. Thank God the safety is on the tip of the trigger guard area like the M16.

With proper training and enough time on the field, you do get used to the cons. Well this is just my opinion... I got 2 months left before I'm a civilian again. After that I got 10 yrs in the reserve to look forward too.

[gc]

I used the SAR-21 when i was a officer cadet too. Its short and handy, no way you can miss a target at night at 100m if you use the laser aiming device. But it is heavy. 4.4Kg loaded to be exact. Try running the obstacle course with that thing slappin against yur back for 1.5 KM. So i end up holding the rifle in my hand all the time. Much easier when i was using the M-16A1. I normally choose to carry the M16/M203 or SAW instead of SAR-21. Can't understand why its so heavy when the barrel is so thin. Just compare the M-16A2 rifle barrel and the SAR-21 and you will know what i am saying. M-16s selector is still the beat. Kinda think the current USMC issue of M-16A4 with Trijicon ACOG is the best combi.

[mutammim]

I believe the M16A2 used a heavy barrel, I could be wrong though. The SAR-21 is heavy mostly due to the kevlar plate on the left side of the upper receiver, right next to the chamber. Suppose to reduce amount of "damage" to the shooter in case of a chamber explosion, bad luck for a lefty then....

[Frens]

I believe the M16A2 used a heavy barrel, I could be wrong though. The SAR-21 is heavy mostly due to the kevlar plate on the left side of the upper receiver, right next to the chamber. Suppose to reduce amount of "damage" to the shooter in case of a chamber explosion, bad luck for a lefty then....

M16A2 has the same barrel profile fo the A1 under the handguards. but it's a bit heavier from the flash hider to the front sight post. ;)

[sickofpretenders]

I have fired a couple of each type of rifle, but mainly M4/M16 and Steyr. I persoanlly prefer regular rifles over the bullpup, mainly due to their simplicity and reliability.

[Para]

Is that breach loading rifles or muzzle loaders sickofpretenders

[sickofpretenders]

Do you know what a bullpup is grandad? Im not the one that tested the first parachute buddy.

[Beer Monster]

I fired one in Nov last year in Warminster, although it was the H&K jazzed up version with pacatinny rail, adjustable grip and stuff.

Brugger-Thomet (www.brugger-thomet.ch) are now producing a picatinny conversion for the L85 as well as a replacement handguard with 4 picatinny rails (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=87598).


....... I wonder if the MOD will purchase?

[RecceGuy]

I doubt it mate, and it will probably be a hanging offence if you buy one yourself and fit it. Just had a look and it looks a little strange with that much of the barrel showing.

[Beer Monster]

I doubt it mate, and it will probably be a hanging offence if you buy one yourself and fit it. Just had a look and it looks a little strange with that much of the barrel showing.

Oh I'm sure you'd be shat on from a dizzy height if it was private purchase! :)

Although having said that I think they have bolted a picatinny rail onto the side of some standard A2 handguards (and the side of the UGL handguard) for the new torch/laser module. I also noticed that they are making noises about an SA80A3 in the latest FIST Newsletter (PDF (http://www.thalesfist.com/pdf/1st_Printed_FIST_nletter.pdf)). So there might be more modifications on the way :roll: .

[Little J]

I had read that HK were still working on the SA80, including a new handguard (my guess is similar to the G36 base UGL handguard)


And your right, that 4 railed one does look freaky :slap: p-)

[RecceGuy]

Yeah there is a handguard with a small picatinny rail on for the laser pointer/torch, but it comes as part of the kit and isn't an add on that your armourer can do. It has a clip to put the laser pressure pad on too. Just had a look at the newsletter interesting read, looks like the A3 will be a version with all the system switches and stuff on the handguard. Somehow I don't think the day will come where theres a picatinny rail on the weapon itself so we can mount our own optics a' la American style.

[Sabre]

Producing an A3 version of the L85 to allow it to fit various sights would be pointless. There are already those who thought it would have been better to procure existing systems (ie deimacos) that are proven, reliable and compatible with the modular sight/accessory rail systems. An A3 version would be a second expenditure that could have been avoided.

[ogukuo72]

Hi I'm currently serving in the Army within the Singapore Armed Forces. Been using the SAR-21 for close to 2 yrs. Did use the M-16A1 during my time as a recruit but converted to the SAR-21 when I was posted as a Regimental Police. I did get a chance to handle the AUG but didn't shoot it though.

What do I think about bullpup, well its more of a love hate relationship. The M-16 is just too long, especially for us Asians. The SAR-21 and AUG feel "right". The built in scope and laser aiming device (at least on the SAR-21) is a god send. Just wish the scope is a red dot type. The recoil, what recoil? The SAR-21 doesn't kick as much as an AR, and I know ARs got low recoil to begin with.

Now the bad. Its freaking heavy. at least 3 kilos when loaded, thats heavier that our SAW, the ultimax. Magazine change is a total bitch but you get used to it, its an ergonomics issue. The mag release and select fire switch is BEHIND and BESIDE of the magazine well respectively. Thank God the safety is on the tip of the trigger guard area like the M16.

With proper training and enough time on the field, you do get used to the cons. Well this is just my opinion... I got 2 months left before I'm a civilian again. After that I got 10 yrs in the reserve to look forward too.

Yes, those are the points I don't like about the SAR-21.

I don't like the push-button safety. I don't like the selector behind the magazine. I don't like the magazine catch. I don't like the scope. And I don't like the weight.

The M16 has a better safety/selector arrangement. I like the push-button magazine catch and the bolt release on the left side.

I prefer the iron sights on the M16 to the 1.5 scope on the SAR-21, but prefer a reflex sight like the Aimpoint M2 or the Eo-Tech. The issue is visibility. I find the dark circle in the SAR-21 scope harder to see than the iron sights. An illuminated dot or circle would be better.

The Israeli TAR-21 is a superior design in my opinion, because:

1. It uses an M16 type safety/selector.

2. It uses a reflex sight combined with a LAM, a lighter and more compact arrangement than the separate modules on the SAR-21.

3. It uses a push button magazine catch, which is better than the press-in latch on the SAR-21 (although the US version of the SAR-21 employs a TAR-21 type magazine catch)