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budanski
01-27-2004, 01:23 AM
Britain Faces ICC Investigation Into Use of Cluster Bombs
News Standard (http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=135)

Jan 21 - Britain is facing investigation by the International Criminal Court (ICC) for the use of cluster bombs by its troops in Iraq. Peacerights, a UK-based human rights group, yesterday issued an executive summary of a report on alleged war crimes committed by the British government and armed forces during the recent invasion of the Middle Eastern country. According to IPS, the findings of the report, which is not yet complete, will be presented to prosecutors at the ICC in The Hague next month. Should Britain’s Attorney-General decline to prosecute, the ICC will then be asked to proceed with an investigation into the accusations.

The report is being prepared following a two-day inquiry in November by a group of lawyers and academics appointed by Peacerights. The inquiry was largely funded by the proceeds of White Ribbon, a campaign set up in February 2003 by British satirist and peace activist Mark Thomas and a coalition of groups opposed to the war in Iraq. Money came from sales of white ribbons representing peace and from shows put on by Thomas that highlighted opposition to the war.

The report alleges that the use of cluster bombs and bunker-buster missiles during the conflict was contrary to international law. At a press conference Tuesday one of the lawyers, Professor Bill Bowring of London Metropolitan University, said, "There is a considerable amount of evidence of disproportionate use of force causing civilian casualties." ******* reports that a Ministry of Defence spokesman maintained that both cluster munitions themselves and their use in the Iraq conflict were lawful.

Cluster bombs, which can be dropped from aircraft or fired from rockets and artillery shells, are packages of small bomblets that are designed to scatter over a wide area and detonate on impact. The UK pressure group Landmine Action estimated in a recent report that between 9 and 30 percent of these bomblets do not detonate but remain live. Landmine Action says these unexploded devices pose a particular danger to civilians as they prevent people from using land or returning to their homes following military action. Also, being brightly colored, the devices are often picked up by children. In December, a report by US-based human rights monitoring group Human Rights Watch accused the UK and US governments of repeatedly using the munitions in populated areas, including residential areas. HRW’s executive director, Kenneth Roth said in an interview with the Guardian that this has been the cause of "hundreds of civilian deaths."

The US, despite also using cluster bombs in Iraq, cannot face investigation by the ICC because it has not signed the treaty under which the court was set up.

Out of nearly 500 reports sent to the ICC since it was set up in 2002, only one has ever led to an investigation and no prosecutions have resulted. Lawyer Hugo Charlton told *******, "Instinctively, it seems probable that political pressure will be bought to bear to prevent this going to the ICC."

This is the latest in long line of attacks on British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his defense minister, Geoff Hoon, both of whom have faced repeated calls to resign over the conduct of the war in Iraq. Both are facing censure in a judicial report due next week into their roles in events leading up to the suicide of a government advisor, Dr. David Kelly. Kelly leaked details to the press suggesting that the government "sexed up" an intelligence service dossier used to make the case for going to war with Iraq before its release to the public.


The US, despite also using cluster bombs in Iraq, cannot face investigation by the ICC because it has not signed the treaty under which the court was set up.
Kinda sad to see the Brits are left to pay the price for political correctness. One of the very reasons the U.S. opted out of this.

fantassin
01-27-2004, 01:30 AM
Naughty Brits; next time, please use paint ball and firecrackers.

fred_engles
01-27-2004, 01:30 AM
Cluster bombs suck - and I can scarcely imagine that they were truly justified in what everyone knew would be an "easy" war (not to minimize the effort and sacrifices of those involved).

If cluster bombs are a danger to the civilian population (and they are) why would the British use them in what was obviously going to be a rout. I find it difficult to believe that with such massive superiority on the ground and in the air, and in every possible way, the british really couldn't spare the tiny tactical advantage cluster bombs may have given them. The Brits ought to be ashamed of themselves.

budanski
01-27-2004, 01:37 AM
Last I heard, you overwhelm your enemy with everything at your disposal. The Brits have nothing to be ashamed of here.

Royal
01-27-2004, 01:52 AM
Last I heard, you overwhelm your enemy with everything at your disposal. The Brits have nothing to be ashamed of here.

Hmmm. I kind of agree with you, but having seen the effect of unexploded cluster bombs on the indiginous populations from Kurdistan in '91 to the Balkans and more recently Afganistan (usually to kids), as well as the EOD casualties. I think that they are very much a double edged weapon. Our planning staff should be alot more careful in where they are targeted - a bit of time on the ground may help ;)

wreck
01-27-2004, 01:53 AM
Naughty Brits; next time, please use paint ball and firecrackers.
Or just ignore international treatys for banning overkill weapons, just like US do all the time.

AFG
01-27-2004, 01:54 AM
poor brits :(

Kilgor
01-27-2004, 01:54 AM
god.. first they whinge about napalm.. and now cluster bombs.

are we ment to tickle the enemy to death with feathers ?

Royal
01-27-2004, 02:06 AM
poor brits :(

Poor kids :(

gilgoul
01-27-2004, 02:41 AM
Good, let`s forbid also fragmentation grenade, cause they cause fragments that can kill and maim people, and also the ss109 type of ammo, cause they have a tendency to break in the target s body, and then, what about making war illegal, and we` ll all leave in a better place and just sue each other when we `ll have serious differences of view, other wise let`s hug everyone on earth and listen to freakin` john lennon for ever . I would be the first happy, and could go shopping without the fear of finding myself filled with schrapnel.
Thoses pacifists schmacifists are cute, to a point, the fact that they cynically use the ICC shows on wich side they are, they are ready to put in jail their service men and put their country at stake for the sake of their demonstration, war is not nice.
Well, hello, war is incredibly ugly, the survivors are not necesseraly the heroes, and people die in the dummiest and most painfull situations.
:cantbeli:

Royal
01-27-2004, 02:50 AM
Thoses pacifists schmacifists are cute, to a point, the fact that they cynically use the ICC shows on wich side they are, they are ready to put in jail their service men and put their country at stake for the sake of their demonstration, war is not nice.
Well, hello, war is incredibly ugly, the survivors are not necesseraly the heroes, and people die in the dummiest and most painfull situations.
:cantbeli:

If you're calling me a pacifist ****nuts, you want to check out what I do for a living.

There is a massive difference between ball ammunition or a grenade and a munition 10% of which (by our own figures) become a cross between an anti-personell mine and a ****y trap.

I know war is ugly (because I've been there - have you?), but there is no need to make it uglier than it need be, particularly for non-combatants.

martinexsquaddie
01-27-2004, 03:57 AM
I can see there argument about cluster Bombs.
there failure rate and the fact that the ones that don't detonate become a long term hazard
but whats the argument against bunker busting bombs they seem to be straight forward military weapon

Mr Gently Benevolent
01-27-2004, 05:39 AM
While I would not like to see a ban on the use on cluster type weapons I would like to see better guidlines in their use, maybe even better fusing I believe BAE had developed a sub munition with a low rate of failure and could disarm itself mechanically after a period of time but it was fairly expensive, an outright ban would be foolish .

DeltaWhisky58
01-27-2004, 05:40 AM
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
We must not authorise the use of cluster bombs
(x10)

Signed.....Tony Blair (assuming he's still PM after tonight's Commons vote) :cantbeli: :-*$

Gringo
01-27-2004, 05:47 AM
I think it was Hoon's deciscion to use Cluster bombs. He even said in a documentary on the recent Iraq war on BBC 2. It was called "The War We Never Saw".

Kenshin
01-27-2004, 05:56 AM
"Who the bloody ass signed that treaty??.. Get him here and I will have him pick up one by one those unexploded ones" -Blair


The US, despite also using cluster bombs in Iraq, cannot face investigation by the ICC because it has not signed the treaty under which the court was set up.

gilgoul
01-27-2004, 06:22 AM
Thoses pacifists schmacifists are cute, to a point, the fact that they cynically use the ICC shows on wich side they are, they are ready to put in jail their service men and put their country at stake for the sake of their demonstration, war is not nice.
Well, hello, war is incredibly ugly, the survivors are not necesseraly the heroes, and people die in the dummiest and most painfull situations.
:cantbeli:

If you're calling me a pacifist f***, you want to check out what I do for a living.

There is a massive difference between ball ammunition or a grenade and a munition 10% of which (by our own figures) become a cross between an anti-personell mine and a ****y trap.

I know war is ugly (because I've been there - have you?), but there is no need to make it uglier than it need be, particularly for non-combatants.

PLease correct the misunderstanding and forgive my incorrect use of the forum.
I wasn`t, god forbid, lashing out at you or at any person present on this forum, especially not you, you` re entitle to your opinion, and i` m not particulary a fan of cluster bombs or any other kind of mines and ****y traps either.
My point is, the accusation of war crime is a grave one, that tends to be over used by those biased human right groups, who might be trying to make the world a better place, but for th moment are just a willing or unwilling tool in the hands of governements and organisations that don`t give a penny for the human rights.
So using the ICC against england is both cynical and stupid.
ABout not making war uglier, the use of sticks and machettes doesn`t improve the situation of the NC, as we saw both in Africa (rwanda, congo, cote d`ivoire) and in the rest of the world, and artisanal ****y traps are often as deadly than the clusters, wich at least can be programmed to self neutralize, if my sources are correct.
Last point, as a military of former one, you know the use and utility of ground interdiction devices, both on practical and phsychological level, should we simply ban the use of those devices?

For your information, I had the awful occasion to witness the effect of explosive devices more than once, and of land mine once, on a 14 year old non combattant subject .

cut
01-27-2004, 06:57 AM
meh I was studying this in international law class (dull as fuuck) and they can't do ****. So who cares if we signed up to the treaty, the only reason the US didn't was to "torture" afghanies, or something along those lines.

Gringo
01-27-2004, 07:17 AM
I reckon Hoon will be blamed for this. And good ridence.

cut
01-27-2004, 08:02 AM
sadly(?) I doubt anyone will get the blame, water of a duck's back nothing blair can't handle.