Vietnam: Carry of 30-round magazines

[HCV]

Only few 30-round magazines were available during the Vietnam war, and no magazine pouches were issued for those. How were they carried? Some sources suggest canteen carriers, which strike me as not deep enough. Claymore bags? How many would fit into one?
Also, I know 20-rounders were carried in canteen carriers -- how many would fit in one? Six?

Thanks!

Cheers

HANS

[crinkler]

How about rucks :)

[ogukuo72]

I'm no Vietnam expert but I think the M1956 ammo pouch designed to carry two 7.62mm 20-round magazines should be able to carry maybe three of the 30-round magazines?

If there's still the old BAR pouches laying around, that should do as well.

[thatguy96]

Claymore mine bags are designed to carry 2 claymores and associated equipment. I would think you could fit at least 4 mags in the front slots and then at least another 2, if not another 4 in the rear bag part.

[ogukuo72]

Rattles a bit though, if you put it in a claymore bag, unless you tie it off with a cloth tape.

[DnA]

The M56 ammo pouches can hold 3-4 30 round magazines. Later in the war M67 30 round mag pouches came out, an they could hold 3 30 round magazines. Others put them in canteen carriers.

M56 Universal Ammo pouches
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/M14%20Pouch%20EXC.JPG


M67 30 round mag ammo pouch
http://www.mooremilitaria.com/30rd%20nylon_small.jpg

[flanker7]

I find this site very informative when looking for Vietnam era gear

http://www.thevietnam-database.co.uk/

[StukaJr]

SEALs carried 30 round AK mags in empty Canteen Covers - seen 2-3 of them baddies in some pictures... Imagine, the same could have been done with shorter/wider M16 30 rounders.

edit: Dang it, didn't see DnA's post

[buttchowder]

The vietnam database website is pretty good.

[HCV]

>The M56 ammo pouches can hold 3-4 30 round magazines.

I rather doubt this. The M1956 pouch could hold four M16 20-rounders or two M14 magazines, but I think it is not deep enough for the 30-rounders. I read several accounts which explicitly mentioned that the 30-rounders would not fit, and that they therefore had to carry them elsewhere -- therefore my question.

>Later in the war M67 30 round mag pouches came out, an they could hold 3 30 round magazines.

According to Rottman US ARMY COMBAT EQUIPMENTS and Stanton US ARMY UNIFORMS OF THE VIETNAM WAR, the 30-rounder pouches were adopted in 1974. They may have been around earlier, but they were certainly not common.

Incidently, http://www.thevietnam-database.co.uk/ writes this:

"Notes: The M1956 ammo pouch was introduced in 1957. It was sometimes called the "M14" as it was initially designed for this weapon and not M16. Some sources (Miraldi, 1999:145) state that it was mistakenly known as the M14 ammo pouch, however it does in fact carry both types of magazines.
Variations: There are several variations. The earliest pouch is made of canvas and has a metal front plate to protect the ammunition from fragments and a grommet through the securing tab. This was replaced in 1962 with a pouch of the same size but without the metal plate and tab grommet. This gives a a crumpled appearence when empty (Pictured above). A smaller size of pouch still made of canvas appeared in late 1967 to early 1968. These were designed for easier access to the shorter M16 20 round magazine. Several sources disagree on the actual date these appeared. Both types fit the same number of magazines but in the smaller pouch magazines are easier to reach. There is another same smaller size but instead made of nylon. This is part of the M1967 webbing. The forth type is the early ALICE pouches specifically designed for 20 and 30 round M16 magazines (Miraldi, 1999), but these are not Vietnam War period."

But then contradicts it with this:

"Another photos showing M1967 M16 30 rounds magazine pouch. Date is 1969. But limited war time photo showing using this pouch during Vietnam War."

As to canteen covers, again I am not sure if the 30-rounders would fit. I have seen six or so 20-rounders in canteen carriers, and that was a tight fit. Perhaps someone has photos?

Cheers

HANS

[DnA]

"According to Rottman US ARMY COMBAT EQUIPMENTS and Stanton US ARMY UNIFORMS OF THE VIETNAM WAR, the 30-rounder pouches were adopted in 1974. They may have been around earlier, but they were certainly not common. "

ALICE came out in 1974. M67 came out before that. I got a photo of a Marine Force Recon officer with the M67 30 round ammo pouches, so they were around in limited quantities during the war.

HCV, I got 30 round mags an they fit fine in the M56 ammo pouches. Also, the only problem the M56 ammo pouches had was with the 20 round mags, since the pouch was too deep for the 20 round mags, making it a bit difficult to remove the mags, you see some LRRPs/Rangers(an I assume others) with guntape "magpulls" to help make it easier on removing the mags.

[ogukuo72]

If 20 round mags are used with the 1956 pouches, something would have to be at the bottom to place the mags at a suitable height, like a pair of socks, etc.

[sgtmonroe]

The M-1956 'universal ' small arms ammunition case was actually designed to hold BAR ammunition magazines - not M14 ammunition magazines [they could hold the M16 20-round ammunition magazines but most put a field dressing or rolled up sock in the bottom to raise the ammunition magazines up]. In 1966 a 'short' M-1956 small arms ammunition case was introduced that held four 20-round M16 ammunition magazines.

The M-1967 MLCE introduced the nylon version of the 1966 20-round M16 ammunition magazine case [it actually didn't hit the field until 1968].

The first 'working' 30-round M16 ammunition magazines were introduced in 1968-69 in VERY small quantities. The M-1967 MLCE 30-round ammunition magazine case didin't start hitting the field until late 1969-70.

ALICE was actually fielded in late 1973 [I have a picture of A US Marine using it during the Saigon evacuation] and was originally designated M-1972 ILCE.

But the answer to your question - according to photographic evidence - is...canteen covers.

[thatguy96]

There is also mention by members of more elite forces of use of captured web gear for 30 round AK mags, for both the M16 and the T223.

[HCV]

But the answer to your question - according to photographic evidence - is...canteen covers.

Which brings me back to the original question -- did they actually fit? Cause the photos I have seen seem to indicate that only the 20-rounders would fit into a 1-quart cover, at least vertically -- unless you leave the flaps unsnapped, which would invite accidental loss.
IF you could fit 30-rounders in a canteen cover, how much would fit in there? Thanks!

Cheers

HANS

[DnA]

The M56 universal ammo pouches were designed for M14 magazines, not BAR. The old WW2/Korean war BAR ammopouches/belts did see action in Vietnam though.

A M67 1qt canteen cover can carry 4 30 round magazines, I know cause I just did it, an I was able to close one of the snaps, but not the other one.

[DE_Six]

If 20 round mags are used with the 1956 pouches, something would have to be at the bottom to place the mags at a suitable height, like a pair of socks, etc.

In Plasters's book, some SOG vets explained they stuffed a spare field dressing at the bottom of the universal ammo M1956 pouch.

There was a pouch similar to the M1956 universal but shorter to acommodate the 20-rds M16 mags.

[sgtmonroe]

DnA, I beg to differ - you even quote a not so reliable source of information [Rottman's US Combat Equipments] - the M-1956 small arms ammunition case was designed in 1954 - before the adoption of the M14 rifle. It's actual military designation is CASE, SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION, UNIVERSAL [NSN 8465-00-647-0852 , MIL SPEC MIL-C-40159] and it was designed to hold 2 BAR ammunition magazines - or - 8 M1 rifle en-bloc clips in bandoleer - or - M1 carbine ammunition magazines [unknown amount] - or 2 hand grenades [internally].

If you check your source you quoted you will find a similar statement contained within.

[sgtmonroe]

Here is a good example of late war LRP Ranger gear [circa 1970]:

http://www.geocities.com/sgt_monroe/car15rucks2.jpg

Left to right - M16A1 w/M203 [in the left corner is a Gerber MkII], XM177E1 [the LCE in front has a canteen cover being used as a mag pouch], and finally a XM177E2 [the LCE next to it has two canteen covers being used as mag pouches - one is a M-1967 nylon cover - identified by the H2O tablet pouch]. It is unclear if there are 30-rounders in the canteen covers - but the one in the forefront appears to have them. By the way the rucks are M-1967 tropical rucksacks [forerunner of the medium LC-1 ALICE pack].

[DnA]

I didn't use Rottman as my source for the Universal Ammo pouches. All of the books an sites say that the universal ammo pouches were designed for M14 mags. I'm not saying your wrong, just that I haven't seen anything that says otherwise to what I've read.

Also, that pic of late war Ranger gear woulden't be all that common(weapon wise). The most common rifle in use with most Rangers was the M16A1, not the XM177E1/E2.

[sgtmonroe]

Besides REMF use, the XM series [incorrectly called the "CAR-15" by most veteran accounts - most didn't know any better] was pretty common among LRRP, LRP, and SOG units. Of the six books I've read of veteran accounts most all at least mention one to two "CAR-15"s being carried in the normal six-man patrol. Although, correctly, the M16A1 was the Standard A and for obvious reasons the more common.

The main illustrating point of the image was the fact the weapons have 30-rd magazines. I have another image - need to scan it - showing a SOG equipment display from 1969. It shows an XM177E1 with a 30rd magazine but the other 22 magazines carried were 20-rounders [in SAA cases, canteen covers, and M8 bandoleers].

And I apologize for the Rottman quote - I see now you were quoting it from another poster.

[DnA]

Some units had more XM177E1/E2s than others, depends on supply, etc. In my dad's ranger company they weren't all that common.

[sgtmonroe]

According to Colt's contracts they produced more E1's for the Army than E2's. I don't know about H&R and GM Hydromatic contracts [they both produced a percentage of their 200,000-or-so M16A1s as "Colt Commandos" - not sure how many].

Supply is definately the end answer - the "Colt Commando" was a prize. They were only produced from June 1966 though January 1970. A multi-service field survey was conducted in August/September 1967. Out of 2,100 troops interviewed, only 38 wished to trade in their M16 rifles. Of these, 35 wanted an XM177-variant.

Most went to the REMF.

[sgtmonroe]

Universal [or M-1956] LCE Small Arms Ammunition Case with two M14 ammunition magazines - not quite a fit on the sides.

http://www.geocities.com/sgt_monroe/m1956_mag_02.jpg

[haze99]

HCV, from the photos I have seen, soldiers in SOG used US 2-quart Canteen Carriers to hold their 30-rd magazines. Several books by Osprey, show this type set-up.

Great info SGTMONROE, thanks!


USAF personnel used the GAU-5A and GAU-5A/A during the Vietnam War. (as well the M-16 with NO forward assist) Did they get issued any 30rd magazines? If so, what type of pouches or carriers did they use?