Pictures of North Korean military hardware [Archive]

mustamato

01-27-2004, 04:30 PM

These are not very easy to find. If you have more please share.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_VTT-323_AIFV.jpg
VTT 323 AIFV

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_Type-62_light_tank2.jpg
Type 62 light tank

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_Type-62_light_tank.jpg
Type 62 light tank

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_MiG-29_Fulcrums.jpg
MiG 29 Fulcrums

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_MiG-23_Floggers.jpg
MiG 23 Floggers

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_MiG-21_Fishbeds.jpg
MiG 21 Fishbeds

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1992_twin_37mm_SPAAG.jpg
M1992 37 mm twin SPAAG

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1992_twin_30mm_SPAAG2.jpg
M1992 twin 30 mm SPAAG

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1992_twin_30mm_SPAAG.jpg
M1992 twin 30 mm SPAAG

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1992_APC_with_107mm_MRL.jpg
M1992 APC with 107 mm MRL

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1992_240mm_MLRS.jpg
M1992 240 mm MLRS

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1992_120mm_Gun-Mortar.jpg
M1992 120 mm Gun/Mortar

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1991_122mm_SPG.jpg
M1991 122 mm SPG

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1989_170mm_SP_Gun.jpg
M1989 170 mm SP gun

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1985_Light_tank.jpg
M1985 light tank

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1985_152mm_SP_Howitzer2.jpg
M1985 152 mm SP howitzer

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1985_152mm_SP_Howitzer.jpg
M1985 152 mm SP howitzer

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1975_SP_130mm.jpg
M1975 SP 130 mm

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_M1974_152mm_SP_Howitzer.jpg
M1974 152 mm SP howitzer

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_Il-28_Beagles.jpg
Il-28 Beagles

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/bomb.jpg
...and their bombs

Uninen

01-27-2004, 04:42 PM

:cantbeli:

Nice find..

rofl ;)

Uninen

01-27-2004, 04:47 PM

:lol:

And irony aside..

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Rf/NK%20Chonmaho%20mod%20T-62.jpg
DPRK MBT, Chonmaho a T-62 mod.

My DPRK picture pack, 22 pics (save as) (http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Rf/DPRK_Hardware_pics.rar)

Portfolio: Democratic People's Republic of Korea Air Force (this is a link to a page) (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_178.shtml)

;)

venture160

01-27-2004, 04:49 PM

nice job man, where did you find all these might I ask?

Uninen

01-27-2004, 04:55 PM

nice job man, where did you find all these might I ask?

:hug:

From my picture pack id figure..

At least the files have the names that i gave to them..

rofl

BlackRain

01-27-2004, 04:57 PM

The North Krazies Air Force has three regiments of Il-28/BEAGLEs Il-28 Beagles. First flown on the 08 August 1948, the Il-28 entered service with Russian bomber squadrons in 1950.

http://www.aviation.orc.ru/images/il28/il28-3-b.jpg

They belong in a museum not in an Air Force for the 21st century.

Uninen

01-27-2004, 05:00 PM

BlackRain,

What about B-52?

B-52 project started in 1945..

rofl

Dalleer

01-27-2004, 05:00 PM

mustamato

01-27-2004, 05:06 PM

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_Type-62_light_tank2.jpg

I guess they haven't heard of kevlar helmet's either...

But, this one is great, It brings the "brave fighters of the people"-feeling.

Yeah I thought the same of that picture, also notice that they have bayonets
on their rifles. Close combat it is. And I don´t think it matters if you have kevlar
helmet or one of those old steel helmets. Maybe the liner is better on a modern
helmet though so you don´t black out when getting a rifle butt in your head.

TriggerPuller

01-27-2004, 05:16 PM

What do you mean it wouldnt matter. Many a soldier's life has been saved by the Kevlar helmet from rouns and schrapnel.

I wish the north would push us a little more they have no comprehension of what we could do to them. Delusional little Commies they are!!

TP

mustamato

01-27-2004, 05:19 PM

What do you mean it wouldnt matter. Many a soldier's life has been saved by the Kevlar helmet from rouns and schrapnel.

I meant in close combat if they were using those bayonets. Yes I do
understand that handgrenades are close combat weapons but I meant
that steel and kevlar stops a kick or a rifle butt just as well. But modern
helmets of course usually have a better chock absorbing liner.

non-zero possibility

01-27-2004, 05:19 PM

BlackRain

01-27-2004, 05:40 PM

BlackRain,

What about B-52?

B-52 project started in 1945..

rofl

For more than 40 years B-52 Stratofortresses have been the backbone of the manned strategic bomber force for the United States. The B-52A first flew in 1954 and current engineering analyses show the B-52's life span to extend beyond the year 2040.

At its peak, the B-52 equipped 42 SAC bomber squadrons, dispersed to 38 different airbases.

A total of 744 B-52 bombers were built by Boeing in Wichita and Seattle, Wash. Today, 94 B-52H models remain in Eighth Air Force. The B52H variant have undergone extensive modifications of systems. The H model can carry up to 20 nuclear or conventional air-launched cruise missiles.

I agree that the Beagle and the Strat are of equal vintage; however, the B-52 has evolved. I don't see any evidence to support the Beagle being a viable platform past the 1960's.

If you have any information on Beagle production and upgrades, I would love to see it.

Uninen

01-27-2004, 05:44 PM

I don't see any evidence to support the Beagle being a viable platform past the 1960's.

If you have any information on Beagle production and upgrades, I would love to see it.

You say that its effective in 60s?

rofl

50s at max..

;)

Also.. i think that there has been no upgrades to it.. at least not major one like to B-52..

;)

Vance

01-27-2004, 05:48 PM

Some good equipment there....we'd still kick their ass, though :D

mustamato

01-27-2004, 06:08 PM

Some good equipment there....we'd still kick their ass, though :D

I don´t doubt that at all, but,

517 dead americans in Iraq now. How many would it be in a country like NK?

Maverick77

01-27-2004, 06:19 PM

A few thousand

But we will still kick their ass when the time comes

btw thanks for the pics NK has quite a lot of solid equipment and more than enough men.

BlackRain

01-27-2004, 06:19 PM

517 dead americans in Iraq now. How many would it be in a country like NK?

That is a great question.

Currently, the US is facing a war of insurgency and terrorist attacks while trying to "nation build".

War with Korea would be different. The USA will not attack pre-emptively in this case. The decision to go to war is up to the North Koreans.

In that event, Seoul and its subburbs would face a withering N.Ko attack focused mainly on civilians. The 30,000 + US military members currently in theater are a trip wire and DIP'S (die in place); they need to hold real estate until a larger force can arrive.

Any suprise attack by the N. Ko military would be met and repulsed but with significant causulties. This is considering conventional warfare methods and does not take into account the use of chemical, bio, or nuke weapons by the N. Ko's.. Any special weapon release would be the death knell for many of the 22 million North Koreans.

War in Choson-minjujuui-inmin-konghwaguk is a lose/lose scenario and the best we can hope for is that Kim Chong-il's government collapses.

Vance

01-27-2004, 06:21 PM

mustamato

01-27-2004, 06:26 PM

Maverick77

01-27-2004, 06:40 PM

No the U.S public would not be able to handle thousands of U.S troops killed.

I dont know how much longer their going to "handle" casualties in Iraq.

but **** the public the soldiers of the coalition would be able to handle it and would win.

I think the U.S, Canada and other countries like that have got to stop listening to every stupid thing the public says.

For example today a Canadian soldier was KIA in Afghanistan, this is very sad but is part of war and Canada has had very light casualties in Afghanistan.

but you should see the news media here. Their going nuts.

Thats why I dont think the western public can handle a large scale war with thousands of dead anymore......that was shown in Vietnam.

Nizark

01-27-2004, 07:14 PM

Yeah, Lets just go to war with North Korea... Trigger puller has it down. Then why not just invade china... then vietnam. and the rest. Lets just bomb every country so everybody is aware we can do it. Great plan.

****, we have thousands of nuclear weapons, why dont we test out a dozen or so all over SE asia? Suprise the hell out of vietnam and pop them again.

Osiris

01-27-2004, 09:35 PM

I wish the north would push us a little more they have no comprehension of what we could do to them. Delusional little Commies they are!!

Be carefull what you wish for.

StealthMode

01-27-2004, 10:41 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, But I think in the peace treaty, there was a portion that allowed the U.S.A and South Korea to hold joint war games at a certain interval. And as I recall in the most recent war games, I would assume with the use of computers that the U.S has had the same outcome since the inception. That is that North Korea ALWAYS will loose the war, and the U.S is to loose 50,000 troops. I remember this information from MONTHS ago, although it was within the last year.

And may I add a comment about the 500 lost soldiers in Iraq. 500 soldiers lost in a war that will dramatically change the future of the entire world (first foothold of real democracy in the arab world) is small compared to any conflict in history with this dramatic of a projected outcome in the future of an entire region. Those soldiers although tragic, sacrificed their lives for the future of the world regardless of if you believe the war was right or wrong.... the long term effect would be hard to argue as being positve when democracy begins spreading to the surrounding region.

Uninen

01-28-2004, 05:36 AM

In Korea..

There is no peace treaty as USA doesnt want one..

Theres only cease fire..

:cantbeli:

*Edit*

So technically,

USA and DPRK are at war.. still..

:cantbeli:

Uninen

01-28-2004, 05:41 AM

and StealthMode,

Whats happening in Iraq has nothing to do with democrazy and has everything to do with oil and Project American Century..

:fork:

fdt

01-28-2004, 05:47 AM

A few thousand

But we will still kick their ass when the time comes

btw thanks for the pics NK has quite a lot of solid equipment and more than enough men. Not necessary a few thousand (similar pessimistic estimates were made before first Gulf War) , but one thing is for sure... precission ammo expenditure would be much higher than at Second Gulf War.... there would be simply more targets to take out ...

16 OBr SpN

01-28-2004, 06:04 AM

Marmot1

01-28-2004, 07:24 AM

OK, there are several people who want the war to start in Korea peninsula.

Let's imagine the scenario of nuclear war.

1) NK is geographically close to many close allies of the US: SK; Japan; Taiwan. The links are mostly economic. Guess what's going to happen? The economic crisis in the whole region, with severe consequences for everyone, including the US.

2) China. Will get involved.

3) Russia. Will get involved. If the nuclear war breaks out, it will severely effect our regions.

4) The ecological consequences are totally unpredictable.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

P.S. Those who say that North Korean army is weak, are very wrong. I've personally seen their soldiers (just regular infantry). Their fighting skills are no worse than those of Americans. Never underestimate your opponent. Besides, no wars are won by bombs and Tomahawks only. Infantry is the backbone of every war.
Yep right and remember that they do not know democracy since they never had it to 1945 japan ocupation then comunism so the scenario will be simmilar to iraq and onec you fighted with them and you almost lost (remember Pusan pocket??? ) also they have nukes and I's sure they use it if they are atacked probably on seul or on one of japan cities... they army is not so weak and they have enrmous manpower mobilisation capabilities also nort corea is mountain country and not flat desert like iraq so using precise weapons is more dificult and setting up ambush is easier...

Haiw

01-28-2004, 07:52 AM

2) China. Will get involved.

3) Russia. Will get involved. If the nuclear war breaks out, it will severely effect our regions.
The question is, at which side will they get involved? I mean, especially when you look at how China has been evolving over the past few decades, and from what I heard from people who've been in that area it's most likely that if China get's involved it's gonna be against North-Korea...

oldsoak

01-28-2004, 09:32 AM

The Chinese are making dollars - they dont want some nutter next door upsetting the trade deals. They are after the influence of affluence, - a war would drown that. The Russians just want to be left alone and the US isnt looking for a fight either. My moneys is on the Chinese staging a bloodless coup, where Kim steps down on health grounds and some other bloke who is less likely to upset the applecart steps in. No one gets killed, shot or shagged and everyone goes on making money. :)

Sergei

01-28-2004, 11:05 AM

Some good equipment there....we'd still kick their ass, though :D

No doubt about it. Remember 1953? :)

-=TFN=-Karab

01-28-2004, 01:46 PM

I hope North Korea doesn't end up bombing Seoul again... South Korea is a beautiful place, I've lived there and am half South Korean. It's kind of scary living there. The North Koreans despise the South and always have. Seoul is in range of being bombarded with artillary at the least. Millions could die if another Korean War started up. The North Korean government is stubborn, and the people (just like in other countries) are scared to go against their leader in anyway. They're brainwashed daily and have very few freedoms, if any. Our US forces in South Korea are fearful too. It's scary, I don't want any relatives or friends to face any trouble. I'm afraid NK will try to attack again, this time the ending will be different I believe though... I think they are more aware of what they face but will follow through until they collapse. It's messed up. I can only pray.

Falco

01-28-2004, 02:09 PM

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/index.html

It's got some pretty good stuff

pfclee

01-28-2004, 02:14 PM

I guess you guys are missing one point here.

US army stationed in ROK is not the only force depending Korea right now tho they ARE providing great help.

ROK armed forces as some of you may know contains more than 700,000 troops with decent equipment.

Plan 5016 states that ROK armed forces will be conducting most major battles in the war theatre

and US will be providing lot of help in the air with their airforce stationing in Japan (ROK recently purchased 40 Advanced F-15E and a few more F-16 Block 52s to be more independent from the US).

For the naval war, I don't really think US needs to involved since NK naval force is considered as almost nothing even to the ROK navy.

ROK navy has one of the strongest submarine warfare in the far east region also.

My guess is that if war break out, which I HIGHLY doubt, most casualties will be coming from the ROK forces and few hundreds or maybe more than a thousand from the US force, based on the assumption that they will take actions in the air mostly.

Uninen

01-28-2004, 02:30 PM

If the war brokes out..

The South will be over run quickly..

And Japan becomes the Battlefield..

rofl

You dont fool around with DPRK..

Also what globalsecurity.org tells about their forces is all outdated.. totally.
(only real intel even from 80s is that they have MiG-29s.. rest is from 70s and 60s..)

rofl

Even the US estimates say that DPRK troops are better trained than those of US army..

And they say that if war brakes out..

in the first 30 minutes of the conflict the Seoul will be turned into a one huge ruin.. by DPRK artillery, rockets and missiles..

Even without any WMD use..

rofl

The North Korean performance in the winter 2000 training was relatively impressive, suggesting that previous judgments have been premature. Immediately following the June 2000 summit, the North Korean People?s Army training cycle in the summer of 2000 was the most extensive ever recorded. It was preceded by the most ambitious winter training cycle for the past ten years. Training levels since 2000 have been record-breaking, with the focus on improving the readiness of major offensive forces.

rofl

Uninen

01-28-2004, 02:31 PM

A hint:

China and Russia will not tolerate a Korea that is fully pro-USA..

They will nuke you or the Korea over it, if it comed to that..

:|

Uninen

01-28-2004, 02:46 PM

http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000494.php

The problem is, of course, that any attempt to attack North Korea to remove its nuclear capability would almost certainly result in a retaliatory North Korean artillery barrage aimed at Seoul ? which would kill tens of thousands and level that city for the second time in a century. Such a barrage, of course, would also set off a second Korean War (really a continuation of the first, which has not yet ended) that would prove even more distracting from the War on Terror than Gulf War Redux will be.

:hug:

pfclee

01-28-2004, 02:53 PM

If the war brokes out..

The South will be over run quickly..

And Japan becomes the Battlefield..

rofl

What makes you say that South will be over run quickly...?
Becuz they have 1 mil and we have .6 mil. Do you think modern war is still about numbers now?

Wake Up!

It's year 2003...

rofl

You dont fool around with DPRK..

Also what globalsecurity.org tells about their forces is all outdated.. totally.
(only real intel even from 80s is that they have MiG-29s.. rest is from 70s and 60s..)

rofl

DPRK's MiG-29s that they have are typical downgrades of Russia's and they only have 20 of them. Fire-and-Forget ability is not included as many military analysts believe.

Well, you have to know globalsecurity.org is outdated about South Korea also... over 1000+ tanks in service that is equivalent or a little less capable than M-1, MLRS, K-9 equipped artillery and you think we gonna get run over quick?

What about our +200 F-16s capable of precision bombing? Did you know South Korea is the only country (at least in Asia) that owns F-16 block 52s after the US?

F-15Ks that is coming up and believe to be better than F-15Es?

Did you know most DPRK's airplanes are not even capable of BVR combat?

rofl

Even the US estimates say that DPRK troops are better trained than those of US army..

And they say that if war brakes out..

in the first 30 minutes of the conflict the Seoul will be turned into a one huge ruin.. by DPRK artillery, rockets and missiles..

Even without any WMD use..

rofl

Well, did you know with ROK and US force intelligence, we can predict North Korea's war prep at least 24 hours before?

Do you think we are going to just set our weapons on our laps and suck our thumbs when we know DPRKs coming?

ROK doesn't just give up becuz Seoul is full of fire. We don't put our 600,000+ ground troops in Seoul. You have to understand some destruction in Korea is inevitable and ROK is capable of hitting back when attacked.

Also... well, i guess DPRK soldiers are well trained... but you think ROK troops are not trained at all and don't know how to shoot at all?

HA!

I advise you to grab any person who servied in US army stationed in Korea and ask him how he thought of Korean soldiers. You will get the answer. Ask any marine guy too... You are gonna be crying.

rofl

The North Korean performance in the winter 2000 training was relatively impressive, suggesting that previous judgments have been premature. Immediately following the June 2000 summit, the North Korean People?s Army training cycle in the summer of 2000 was the most extensive ever recorded. It was preceded by the most ambitious winter training cycle for the past ten years. Training levels since 2000 have been record-breaking, with the focus on improving the readiness of major offensive forces.

So you are saying ROK's gonna get run over becuz NK did some impressive job on ONE training...

Wow...

I don't think i need to say anything for this.
Do you still think we are doing nothing with those millions of dollar worth equipment that we bought?

rofl

What I am saying is this: Don't just think ROK's gonna get run over. I have lived in ROK for more than 10 years and am still researching ROK forces. I've seen ROK troops do their jobs and how they did in the past. They are more than you think.

Aegirsson

01-28-2004, 02:54 PM

in the first 30 minutes of the conflict the Seoul will be turned into a one huge ruin.. by DPRK artillery, rockets and missiles..

Some 10000 artillery pieces near the dmz are turned against Seoul.
But if the war explodes, the ones who will suffer the most are North Korean civilians...not from wmd, but from the extrem lack of food.

And the fact is that the biggest "food help" in North Korea is from USA.

Uninen

01-28-2004, 03:02 PM

pfclee,

You are so wrong on so many things..

Let me correct 2:

1. DPRK has at least 36 MiG-29 Fulcrums.
2. DPRK Military has a strength more than 2 million personell.

Plus to these..

South Korea is even weaker nation internaly than South Vietnam ever was..

Your own citizens will break the nation up..

South Korea remains as seemingly peaceful place only because of the extreme brutality of your Police forces..

You oppress your people just as much as China does and scenes like ones seen in Tiananmen massacre are quite usual in South Korea the only difference is that you dont shoot 5000 people at any one time..

:fork:

pfclee

01-28-2004, 03:12 PM

Wow... at least 36...

So you are saying they have 360 or what? Yeah... let's say maybe 50 Mig 29s then (from 1960s and 1970s as you indicated)... So 200 F-16s and 40 F-15s just gonna get all shot down by them...

I don't know man... DPRK's airforce pilots are known to be having only 10 hours of actual flight training when ROK's having over 120 hours...

maybe DPRK people are making some kamikaze... just crashing yourself to the ROK and US airbases...

and about the 2 million... maybe you are talking about their reserve...

What about our +1 million reserve force after 700,000 active?

And once more... modern warfare isn't all about numbers now man... wake up... one MLRS can just wipe out hundreds and thousands now...

So... you are saying becuz we are weaker than South vietname in 1960s and 70s... we are piece of scum?

or saying that our economy is weaker than south vietname now?

What a theory...

Go to the UN economy report and you will know what i am talking about when they picked us one of the few highest national GDP countries in the world.

Man... this is even getting hillarious.

about the police brutality... i think you are just referring to some paper sources... but did you know that many american police officers are using their bats and shileds to neutralize the violent protesters?

You are saying America is even worse than South Vietnam and Chinese now?

Wow man... I didn't even say single bad things about American forces in my threads and you are disrespecting my country like we are nothing...

Thank you.

:bash:

pfclee

01-28-2004, 03:14 PM

and one more thing,

in case you are from Russia,

You know I have lot of things to say about you guys also. :P rofl

Whistler

01-28-2004, 03:18 PM

Mig-29s are pretty weak platforms anyway, especially the models that the DPRK airforce has. If that is their best plane, and they only have a few squadrons, than I don't think the ROKAF and USAF are worried...

They were designed as small point defence interceptors with weak BVR capability. The Balkans and first Gulf War showed how horribly the Mig-29 does when up against an airforce that has high tech F-16s/F-15s, BVR missiles (Aim-120), and AWACS. The Mig only stands a chance if he can manage to get into a close up dogfight, which is very rare. If he ever managed to get that close it would then be up to pilot skill.

A Korean air war would be a turkey shoot...

Same goes for the naval war.

The only place where the DPRK has any advantage is the ground war, just because of their sheer numbers, but when the US/ROK have air superiority...

To the guy that said SK would be over run instantly and the battlefield would be Japan: LMFAO rofl What science fiction have you been reading? So are the DPRK soldiers gonna swim over? Hahaha...

Maverick77

01-28-2004, 03:31 PM

NK has 11 million troops

2 Million Regulars the rest reserves.

FallenAngel

01-28-2004, 03:59 PM

South Korea is even weaker nation internaly than South Vietnam ever was..

Your own citizens will break the nation up..

South Korea remains as seemingly peaceful place only because of the extreme brutality of your Police forces..

If you are refering to the protests of the college students in South Korea, a friend of mine who visited there last year told me that MANY of those students are only involved because they like the adrenaline rush of going against the system. It's like a social gathering, they all get their friends to come along and join in the protest not because they all have political agendas, but because their friends went, so why not them too? Very few actually have major grievances with the government...

...and most of the ones who do are the same types that have major grievances here in the USA- naive liberal college students and their bleeding heart professors. :fork:

As for who would win the war- NK values quantity over quality. That means losses for US/ ROK forces of the kind we're not used to since Vietnam (thousands). However, this isn't the Germans versus the Russians in 1942. Our technology can and will give us the edge in kill ratios and we will win. Eliminate their command and control and those millions of soldiers become a large, disorganized mob. The problem, as in Iraq, is keeping the peace AFTER the fight. The NK people have been indoctrinated to believe the US is evil incarnate (no one tells them where most of their food comes from obviously). That plus it'll be a diplomatic hellstorm with China.

Vance

01-28-2004, 04:01 PM

Some good equipment there....we'd still kick their ass, though :D

I don´t doubt that at all, but,

517 dead americans in Iraq now. How many would it be in a country like NK?
Probably more, but like Iraq, the enemy combatant KIA total would be far higher.

So?

Would the US public be convinced by that argument? "Sure, we´ll loose
5000+ heroes, but I can promise that we will kill all of them, and those
that didn´t die during the battles we will kill anyway".
We lost over 2000 in one day of WWII alone, but we still won. We kept fighting.

Aegirsson

01-28-2004, 04:04 PM

1.5 million actives and 7 million reservists, North Korea armed force are 1/3 of the country.

But actually it's a war against the food lack that should be leaded and not a war for american interests.

The war exist because of the dmz wich exists because of the american contingent (the biggest of asia).

Why do americans maintain the separation between south and north?
because of the Russian, Chinese and European project of "Trans-siberian-trans korean: imagine a train that would start from Japan, cross Korea, continue it's way through China, Russia, and finally cross europe to finish in Paris.
It would be a disaster for Junior's policy.

The economical consequences of this railway network would be:

1-Asian economy intergration:
A railway bond through the North Korea would bring considerably South Korea closer to China.
South Korea sees more its future towards north than towards East, the South Korean companies invest already twice more in China than in USA.

2-Integration of european and asian economies:
The connection of Transkorean and Trans-Siberian would make it possible to reduce the times of transit of the containers between Asia and Europe of one week to one month, while reducing the coast of 15%.
Japan and South Korea would be then economically closer to EU than to the United States.

For a good measuring of the importance of these two points, it is advisable to keep in memory that Japan, second world economy, is just opposite the port of Pusan, in the South of Korea, and that aunderwater railway tunnel should one day connect them. While waiting for its startup, a "maritime bridge", such as the one evoke higher, would already allow a container to travel without "getting out of the train" from Tokyo to Paris (for example) in approximately a week.

3-Increased role of Russia in world economy:
In hypothesis of the realization of the project, the Trans-Siberian would become one of the major arteries of eurasiatic economy, irrigating Asia at one of it's extremity and Europe at the other.

This line has a capacity of 200 000 containers per annum. This one would undoubtedly be, in the medium term, being increased. The transit duties and the facilities economic rising from its proximity would constitute, in addition, an asset for the cities of the South of Russia, somewhat forsaken since the fall of Communism.

Strategical consequences:

South Korea is currently, with Turkey, one of the principal military platforms of the United States. The Pentagon maintains there a strong contingent, by far the most significant in Asia.
A reconciliation -- even, in the long term, a reunification -- would bring the South Korean government rather quickly, possibly pretexting the popular pressure, to require the dismantling of the bases and the repatriation of the personnel. Second nightmare of Junior.

The choice of war:

To prevent the realization of the Transkorean, and especially its connection to Trans-Siberian requires to attack either China, or Russia, or South Korea, or the North Korea.

To attack directly Russia is simply not possible. Nuclear dissuasion always functions. To attack China would only be possible after the installation -- if it functions one day -- of "strategic defense initiative ", (IDS, Star Wars).
Until there, the few Chinese missiles could make much more damage than the three planes of Ben Laden.

To attack South Korea would not be very astute. The hatred of the Asian world would be ensured and, moreover, the principal sure base of the USA in the area could be just used with imposing defense expanditure.

Remain the North Korea, link weak because of its economic indigence, of the surrealist character of its dictatorship and of the years of propaganda that it underwent.

Another policy had been possible, privileging world richnesses acroissement and total integration of the economies.
The development of a "Transbéringien".
An insane project, undoubtedly; awfully expensive, certainly; asking to solve technical difficulties out of the commun run, it's obvious.
But not more than the Star Wars, project which, will be able to bring only death and desolation.

Knowing that, for Junior, the reason of the strongest will always be the best, we can wait, after the second gulf war, to see this character, with his usual "honesty", to prepare the second war of Korea.
While waiting for, it is probable that all the means will be put in work to delay or disturb the bringing together of both Koreas.

Sorry for the mistakes, i hope the you understood what i wrote.

Marmot1

01-28-2004, 04:14 PM

Aegirsson

01-28-2004, 04:17 PM

Please stop the stupid posts about losses...
"Oh we would lose less men than you!"
"No we would manage to nuke your capitale!"

Damn do you think you are speaking about playmobile or legos?
How old are you...?

stuntman

01-28-2004, 04:35 PM

INCREDIBLE>>> Aegirsson, So basicly we (USA) don't want a unified korea because of a train? Your very smart but you have obviously made up your mind about whos good and who's bad! I'm willing to bet we (USA) are not good to you... I also bet you believe the whole pipeline business as far as Afghanastan is concerned?

Uninen

01-28-2004, 04:35 PM

ww2,

Germans killed more troops of every single one of its enemies than it lost to them in combat, yet they lost...

So much for the kill ratio..

:lol:

And no,

Im not from Russia..

rofl

Im just trying to point out to those of you that dont know better that was with DPRK is a option, but is the ultimate failure and will lead to massive loses for all sides..

And maybe even to a nuclear war that in involves DPRK, China and Russia on one side and USA on the other..

Is this what you want?

:|

superpeltor

01-28-2004, 04:37 PM

Uninen

01-28-2004, 04:41 PM

I don't know man... DPRK's airforce pilots are known to be having only 10 hours of actual flight training when ROK's having over 120 hours...

Actually who knows this?

Not the American intelligence at least.. as they admit that they dont know **** about DPRK..

And if South Korean intel would know something, so would American..

:)

about the police brutality... i think you are just referring to some paper sources... but did you know that many american police officers are using their bats and shileds to neutralize the violent protesters?

You are saying America is even worse than South Vietnam and Chinese now?

Go figure..

USA building American Century and all..

Illegaly invading Iraq and all..
(Just like Germany did with Poland..)

This doesnt seem to me as kind or good thing..

And you know what they say about G.W.Bush.. right?

:hug:

Aegirsson

01-28-2004, 04:49 PM

Stuntman, i think that it is time to open your eyes.

And i'm not very smart, i'm just eductated and not endoctrinated.
What i traduced to you is the work of state doctors in political sciences.

If you prefer to believe your rambo movies actors/governors that's your problem.
But in my country the valors wich chair are not violence, non-stop lies and endoctrination.

pfclee

01-28-2004, 04:53 PM

[quote=pfclee]I don't know man... DPRK's airforce pilots are known to be having only 10 hours of actual flight training when ROK's having over 120 hours...

Actually who knows this?

Not the American intelligence at least.. as they admit that they dont know **** about DPRK..

And if South Korean intel would know something, so would American..

:)

-------------

I heard ROK and US has a central air warfare command center that covers entire Korean peninsula and some of Chinese air space. I do not know this is true or not even tho many believe there is.

I believe that they calculate NK's aerial sorties and air time and got the average.

But that's just my guess.

It's from good source that I know.

And don't think America knows everything... SK intelligence got in several troubles becuz they didn't bother to notify US force with stuff they (ROK) know.

duck

01-28-2004, 04:58 PM

Uh, a railroad connecting ROK and PRK has been built for some time now and should be reopened within a year. ROK companies are investing in tourism and light manufacturing in the PRK and bringing in much needed knowhow and hard currency. Any war would be fought largely on PRK soil and I would expect something similar to the Incheon landings laid down in US and ROK planning. Airland assault on Pyongyang maybe...

Whistler

01-28-2004, 07:10 PM

Hey Uninen if North Korea is so great why don't you go live there.

You'd be shot for posting on this internet forum if you lived in North Korea... that is, if you could find a computer in the whole country. Then again, why would anybody be looking for computers when they can't even find food.

Lol... North Korea, a threat to America? rofl

And as for Russia and China siding with North Korea, are you ****ing joking? China will side with the American dollar, they don't give two ****s about the DPRK. Same goes for Russia, the DPRK owes Russia so much money that if there was ever a war and they joined, it would probably be on the side of America/ROK.

Uninen

01-28-2004, 11:45 PM

"Lol... North Korea, a threat to America?"

Not to the mainland America..

But it can defend it borders and take over the south, plus 'bomb' Tokyo with ballistic missiles.. even Okinawa with its American bases is in range..

rofl

And what comes to the China and Russia..

They are at DPRK side.. and if USA trys to take over the DPRK, they will use any nessacery force to repel that invasion as to near DPRK borders both China and Russia have vital military installations, and they dont want USA anywhere near them.

I just hope that they will never prove me right.

And i hope that this is your wish also..

:petting:

Whistler

01-29-2004, 12:09 AM

Russia and China at the DPRK side? Maybe 50 years ago, but not in the modern world.

The US already has bases in Poland and Germany, within striking distance of Moscow, so why would the Russians be worried about activity near Vladivostok? Ya.. Vladivostok is such an important strategic area to Russia that needs to be defended with Nukes rofl .

The Russians haven't been "on the side" with the NKs for years. Hell, Russia recently equipped the SOUTH Korean army with better tanks than they've ever given to NORTH Korea. Russia is on the side of the dollar, not on the side of broke North Koreans.

Same for the Chinese, they have no reason to get uppity about Korea, they'd rather be friends with the USA and keep making billions off trade. Why would they ruin that for a bunch of poor, weak, North Koreans who don't even practice the same form of Communism as them?

So ya, if you're gonna make statements like that back it up with FACTS.

Uninen

01-29-2004, 01:18 AM

Vladivostok = Pacific fleet and nuclear weapons sites.

Its important.

:petting:

BlackRain

01-29-2004, 09:49 AM

NK has 11 million troops

2 Million Regulars the rest reserves.

This is not accurate.

The entire population of North Korea is:

North Korean Population:
22,466,481 (July 2003 est.)

North Korean Age structure:
0-14 years: 25% (male 2,845,727; female 2,763,800)
15-64 years: 67.8% (male 7,485,310; female 7,746,603)
65 years and over: 7.2% (male 541,155; female 1,083,886) (2003 est.)

North Korean Military branches:
Korean People's Army (includes Army, Navy, Air Force), Civil Security Forces

Military manpower - military age:
18 years of age (2003 est.)

Military manpower - availability:
males age 15-49: 6,103,615 (2003 est.)

Military manpower - fit for military service:
males age 15-49: 3,654,223 (2003 est.)

Military manpower - reaching military age annually:
males: 180,875 (2003 est.)

Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$5,217.4 million (FY02)

Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
33.9% (FY02)

Maverick77

01-29-2004, 10:05 AM

It is accurate I already ****in knew what the population of NK was so you can save your statistics.

Between their 1.5 to 2 million man reg force there almost half of the rest of the country is a reservist or in some ****hole militia linked to the government.

Maverick77

01-29-2004, 10:07 AM

Military manpower - fit for military service:
males age 15-49: 3,654,223 (2003 est.)

As for that who said their all "fit for military service"

and who said their all males.

duck

01-29-2004, 11:00 AM

Many still are, thanks to generous aid from America, Japan and the ROK. I don't know if there has been a case in history where three "enemies" keep a failing states military somewhat fit to attack them.

BlackRain

01-29-2004, 12:29 PM

DPRK(North) Military Strength*

Total of all North Korean Military Forces: 1,147,000
Ground forces : 996,000
Navy : 48,000
Air Force: 103,000
Corps: 20
Div./Brigades : 153

65% of North Korean troops are located below the Pyongyang-Wonsan axis

* Source: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/rok/nis-docs/defense08.htm

I believe that you are referring to reserve forces like Worker-Peasant Militia to bloat your estimates of military power. But, if you think 60 year old, half starved volunteer "reserves" constitutes an effective military force, your are sadly mistaken canadian.

According to humanitarian relief agencies, foreign government delegations that have visited North Korea, and South Korean intelligence sources, the ongoing famine already has killed at least two to three million. Interesting read here: http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=KOREA.HTM

The reference for North Korean military strength I quoted earlier is: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kn.html

Kingpin

01-29-2004, 01:01 PM

They were designed as small point defence interceptors with weak BVR capability. The Balkans and first Gulf War showed how horribly the Mig-29 does when up against an airforce that has high tech F-16s/F-15s, BVR missiles (Aim-120), and AWACS. The Mig only stands a chance if he can manage to get into a close up dogfight, which is very rare. If he ever managed to get that close it would then be up to pilot skill.

A Korean air war would be a turkey shoot...

You're right.

That's why Russia employ 3 levels of fighters:
MiG-29 as close range fighter
Su-27 as medium range interceptor
MiG-31 as long range and high altitude interceptor

MiG-29 simply is not enough to achieve something significant.
But don't forget this fighter still very good in close dogfight. You mentioned it. So if it is acting together with intensive AA defences and from their cover it can score. Do you agree?

Whistler

01-29-2004, 01:12 PM

Yep, I agree with you there.

However, in North Korea's case, if its true that they only have 20-30 Mig-29s, I don't think they can have that much impact.

I think that is why the Soviet/Russian airforces had always planned to have HUGE numbers of Migs. They work well in the Russian system of air defence, other figher levels, huge numbers, and GCI control.

Praxus32

01-29-2004, 07:55 PM

Let's look at this realisticly.

North Korea has not in a very long time done any large scale engineer operations. This leads to the only logical conclusion that they will have to hit the minefield a long the DMZ with artillery to clear the mines. Do to the extensive cratoring caused by all the explosions, the majority of vehicles could not be used in an attack with any success. This leaves them with but one option, an infantry rush across the DMZ. It is likely the attack would be concentrated away from Seoul to the east, because the majority of South Korean ground forces are stationed between the DMZ and Seoul. This means they would have to face the 2nd ID(the best manouver force in all of Asia) and American tacticle air support. If they try a multi****ged attack their forces won't be strong enough to do much of anything.

A great deal of their Surface to Surface missiles will be shot down by PAC-2, PAC-3, etc. If they use Chemical Weapons against Civilians the US might accidently release the power of God on North Korea in the form of an Ohio Class Submarine.

Either way they die and it leaves North Korea open to a joint US-South Korean invasion which would number in well over 2,000,000 men including South Korean reserves. The US would leave as soon as the North Koreans are defeated and leave the peacekeeping to South Korea as Iraq and Afghanistan has shown we are no good at it.

UkrainianSpetsnaz

01-29-2004, 08:08 PM

Im sorry if this question has been asked already... Im in college and dont have time to read all the answers, but how big is NK's standing Army? By army I mean everything, navy, Air Force, rocket Forces.....

UkrainianSpetsnaz

01-29-2004, 08:08 PM

AHAH i see BlackRains post. I found my answer. Thanks BlackRain

duck

01-29-2004, 08:16 PM

Praxus:

You forget one aspect: the 110.000 SOF troops the PRK has at it's disposal. And the agent network that exists in ROK to support them. They would enter the South by land, air and sea and attack airfields, power plants, command & control targets etc. on the whole peninsula. Supporting these attacks would most likely be missiles tipped with chemical warheads. The nature of these attacks would be extremely violent as their purpose is to create chaos and paralyze the ROK and US mobilisation and command systems. Korea has innumerable mountains ideal for hiding and that's where part of the PRK troops would most likely withdraw to wage a guerilla war while others would follow Soviet doctrine and try to hold strategic objectives until the armored divisions arrive.

haze99

01-29-2004, 11:18 PM

:| Well, another good thread gone to hell! This started with photos of vehicles. Please keep the UN crap to yourself!

Praxus32

01-30-2004, 04:14 PM

You forget one aspect: the 110.000 SOF troops the PRK has at it's disposal. And the agent network that exists in ROK to support them. They would enter the South by land, air and sea and attack airfields, power plants, command & control targets etc. on the whole peninsula.

North Korean "Special Forces" are nothing special. Their training is less then the average American soldier and not nearly well equiped or fed.

Supporting these attacks would most likely be missiles tipped with chemical warheads. The nature of these attacks would be extremely violent as their purpose is to create chaos and paralyze the ROK and US mobilisation and command systems.

Guess what, as soon as thoose missiles are picked up on radar every ROK and US soldier will have full MOP gear on(they would have high level MOP during any tensions with North Korea, so upping to full gear will not take long) and that Nerve gas isn't going to do anything by kill innocent Civilians.

Command Tents let alone serious instalations are protected against all forms of Chemical and Biological Weapons.

This on top of the fact the great majority of these missiles will be shot down by PAC-2, PAC-3, and perhaps SM-3 Missiles(if this event happens after 2004).

Korea has innumerable mountains ideal for hiding and that's where part of the PRK troops would most likely withdraw to wage a guerilla war while others would follow Soviet doctrine and try to hold strategic objectives until the armored divisions arrive.

I don't think you understand, they are going to die on the Outskirts of Seoul or they are going to die to the east and get litterally chewed up by US tac air support and the 2nd ID. They won't be holding anything of strategic value for very long.

There will be no Armored divisions passing through the DMZ, because of the extensive cratoring done by North Korean artillery to break through the mine field. Since there would be no mechinization, the North Koreans can not "rebuild" their army.

duck

01-30-2004, 05:55 PM

Uninen

01-30-2004, 06:03 PM

:| Well, another good thread gone to hell! This started with photos of vehicles. Please keep the UN crap to yourself!

Uhm..

The photos were from me..

Even if mustamato just ignored my comments about it..

So i think that i can speak my mind about the subject..

And say what i think, to those all that have their 'mind full of stars and stripes'..

:bash:

mustamato

01-30-2004, 06:13 PM

Uninen

01-30-2004, 06:30 PM

mm,

nothing that matters..

Im just 99% sure that you couldnt have got those from anywhere else than from me..

also..

I didnt take them.. its a video capture footage from DPRK TV..

So DPRK camera man took those..

:lol:

Its just a good habbit to mention where from you got anything if you 'know' the source..

Not to mention that if the sorce is your own country man..

:|

Luxembourger

01-30-2004, 07:11 PM

There will never be a war in that region! p-)

Praxus32

01-30-2004, 07:46 PM

Praxus:

Do you understand the concept of SOF troops? The North Koreans would try to kill key officers of the 2ID, maybe poison drinking water in Seoul or Pusan, assassinate ROK politicians, mayors, company managers, entrench themselves at a nuclear power plant with explosives etc.

That isn't going to do ANYTHING to stop their defeat, they have no way to defeat our air assets and the idea of assasinating "key officers" is a tad bit far fetched because Koreans don't exactly fit in around a bunch of European and African looking guys.

Would you attack a shopping mall in downtown Seoul held by PRK SOF or nuclear power plant rigged with explosives with A-10's?

This would be better handeled by Police Units equivilent to SWAT.

PS. Please elaborate on the poor training PRK SOF troops receive compared to the average American recruit.

You actually believe that the North Koreans could train and equip 110,000 soldiers better then American Regular Forces?

We spend well over 5 times as much as their entire defense budget on 100,000 regular infantry in the US Army!

mustamato

01-30-2004, 07:50 PM

PS. Please elaborate on the poor training PRK SOF troops receive compared to the average American recruit.

You actually believe that the North Koreans could train and equip 110,000 soldiers better then American Regular Forces?

We spend well over 5 times as much as their entire defense budget on 100,000 regular infantry in the US Army!

All to my knowledge NK is not a capitalistic country like US, so to compare
dollars spent on each soldier and by that think that the US soldiers training
is superior is just naive. They have better equipment with no doubt, but
what do you think that the north koreans do all the years they serve, suck
**** and wash their officers toilets with their toothbrushes all day long?

It probably costs more cash to train some tankers with all the gas and the
ammunition they use than to train the same amount of SF that just need a
backpack and to walk around the country five times and to eat what the
nature offers. The whole point with SF in most countries is that they are
are quite back to basic, infiltrates, blows up stuff and so forth and there
is sure as hell no need for "tactical" vests and "cool Scott ski glasses" and
crap like that.

Praxus32

01-31-2004, 08:45 AM

All to my knowledge NK is not a capitalistic country like US, so to compare
dollars spent on each soldier and by that think that the US soldiers training
is superior is just naive. They have better equipment with no doubt, but
what do you think that the north koreans do all the years they serve, suck
**** and wash their officers toilets with their toothbrushes all day long?

What do you think, American Soldiers sit on their ass and do nothing. Unlike their North Korean counter-parts, a great deal of American soldiers have combat experiance.

You also HAVE NOT explained to me how they could deliver 110,000 "Special Forces" troops into South Korea. You just like to ignore this tiny detail.

Sure they will do damage, not even close to the Damage done by DPRK Ballistic Missiles and artillery, so stop trying to use "SOF" as some North Korean super-weapon.

duck

01-31-2004, 09:30 AM

Praxus32

01-31-2004, 10:56 AM

From open sources, 5-15 man recon and direct action/sniper teams by parachuting f. low-flying aircraft. Hovercraft and landing craft dispersing various size teams all along the ROK coastline and numerous islands. Divers using minisubs. Recon teams using tunnels under the DMZ.

All Aircraft are out of the question, because we can see them!

It doesn't matter how low flying it is because we have AWACS.

Any mass movement of landing crafts would be picked up by Navy ships and JSTAR.

The tunnels and subs are most viable option, now again I think they can do some damage and wage a "guerilla war" with varius "terrorist" actions like in Iraq, but that is the limit of their ability.

I just consider artillery and the SOF troops being the main PRK assets in a conflict, their armor can probably be annihilated before reaching most objectives. Btw, one scenario I forgot to mention. There is a possibility that PRK psyop SF in ROK uniforms will try to agitate ROK forces to turn their weapons against American troops. Actually very likely so and maybe even with limited success.

The Armour would be almost stuck crossing the DMZ because of all the cratoring and would be destroyed very quickly. So it is unlikely they would use them in any invasion.

Their artillery has to be used to break through the DMZ, if they use it to hit soft targets, they will have given away their posistion and be destroyed leaving North Korea WIDE open for invasion.

Second parts sounds EXTREMELY far fetched.

BlackRain

01-31-2004, 01:36 PM

Ladies,

Even if a mythical amount of alleged North Korean Special Forces penetrated into South Korea and installed themselves into a shopping mall in Seoul.

The first thing they would probably do is drop their weapons and beg for food or clothing for themselves and their families. Life is very grim in the worker's paradise under Kim.

For additional reading and not speculation consider this source: http://www.drc-jpn.org/AR-6E/fujimoto-e02.htm and this source: http://www.specwarnet.com/asia/NKSF.htm

(1) North Korean Force’s principal doctrine

North Korean Forces’ Principal Doctrine is the “Combination of Regular and Irregular Tactics” even in present days. This comes from the fact that the root of North Korean Force is the irregular force founded by Kim Il Sung for armed conflict against Japan.

(2) North Korean Forces’ Principal Strategy

North Korean Force’s principal strategy is the “Cubic Strategy”. The Cubic Strategy is the combination of ‘regular and irregular tactics’, ‘big and small units’ and ‘new and old-fashioned arms ’.

(3) Missions of Special Forces in Preemptive Surprise Strike against South Korea

It is said that the following 3 missions are given to Special Forces: ①form the second fight line on the southern side of DMZ ,by using the underground tunnels, ② make whole of South Korea a battle field at the same time by performing airborne, air maneuvering , landing and guerrilla penetrating operations,③legalize the preemptive surprise strike by causing to request the North Korean support by disguised guerrillas to make internal disturbances in South Korea by penetration of Special Forces.

Marmot1

01-31-2004, 01:46 PM

BlackRain

01-31-2004, 01:54 PM

http://www.g2mil.com/dprk-dmsp-dark-s.jpg

Satelite image of North and South Korea demonstrating the lack of electrical power in the North. Hmmm...can I live there too?

As far as suicide goes, you are incorrect my friend.

I think this is the incident you were referring to: Hardly Suicide but a case of Fratricide.

A North Korean shark class sub ran aground near the city of Kangnung, on the east coast of South Korea. A taxi driver came across two "prowlers" on the night (0055 hours) of September 19, 1996. He also noticed an odd vehicle just off shore and contacted police. A massive manhunt was begun, which ultimately ended with one captured North Korean Submarine, a captured North Korean Commando, 13 North Koreans killed by South Korean Forces (and another 11 killed by their own team) and 17 South Korean dead (13 Military and four civilians). Maps and Weapons ranging from assault rifles to RPG-7's were recovered from the sub.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/21/south.korea/dead.jpg

Officials believe that 26 North Koreans were aboard the submarine. Eleven were discovered shot to death on Wednesday, apparently by AK-47 assault rifles.

South Korean intelligence originally thought the eleven had died in a suicide pact, but now believe they were murdered by their fellow commandos. The AK-47 rifles, standard equipment in North Korea, were found on the scene. Source:http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/21/south.korea/index.html

NcDeuce

01-31-2004, 02:12 PM

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/NK_Type-62_light_tank2.jpg

rofl !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/ranger_in_korea/aau.jpg

Here are some N. Korean weapons taken by my dad.

Marmot1

01-31-2004, 02:17 PM

duck

01-31-2004, 02:24 PM

There is a very strong Patriotic/Nationalistic undercurrent in Korean society. The desire to unify the country is strong as is suspicion of ANY outside powers, especially in the younger generation not having lived through the Korean war. I find the prospect of mutiny and limited anti-American uprisings very realistic and would not be surprised if the USFK command isn't prepared for such an occasion. Don't underestimate the power of Patriotism/Nationalism in a long-suffering Nation.

I just suspect the PRK commanders have watched the 4G warfare evolving in Afghanistan and Iraq very closely and been advised by Serbian experts too. The most likely target for the PRK SOF would be to prevent reinforcements from Okinawa, Guam and the continental US to arrive and cause losses intolerable for the American public.

BlackRain

01-31-2004, 02:27 PM

So.. haw many surrendered from those on land since nobody on boat??? how mant were captured alive.... and there are other examples like this one..

About this photo nice photoshoping.... I can show you photo of NE US covered in dark...
like this one but it is a fake....

Marmot,

My friend you stated that the N. Korean Special Forces killed themselves (suicide). Unfortunately, the facts don't support your post.

If you chose not believe the photo illustrating the lack of electrical supply in North Korea, that is your choice. It is quite easily proved that there is an eletrical supply shortage.

As a result of its electricity shortage, the country often experiences blackouts for extended periods of time, and power losses due to an antiquated transmission grid are high. Some hydroelectric facilities are believed to still be out of operation due to flood damage from major flooding in 1996. Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/nkorea.html

If you want to talk about other intrinsic weaknesses in North Korea's ability to project power, such as the availablity of oil; I would be happy to.

North Korea must import all of the oil it consumes

I don't know why you have such a high regard for North Korean Special Forces?

duck

01-31-2004, 02:34 PM

Kuroi Ame:

Try living in Korea for a while. I have and they are a Nation where hardship and perseverence are an integral part of life. It's a fascinating place to work and play hard and where you get totally whacked with booze until 4a.m and are then expected to go hiking in the mountains at 9a.m. ;)

I know people who have served in ROK Ranger-Commando and SF units and they have nothing but respect for their PRK counterparts.

BlackRain

01-31-2004, 02:39 PM

I know people who have served in ROK Ranger-Commando and SF units and they have nothing but respect for their PRK counterparts.

I too have great respect for the South Korean military. I had lunch with ROK Marine Colonel and was pretty impressed.

In the Vietnam war, American units did not want to always be partnered with South Korean units. The NVA would rather attack the American units than the S. Korean due to their "reputation".

Marmot1

01-31-2004, 04:04 PM

Sorry but NK on your photo is even darker than surrounding sea and there can be blackout but not covering whole country at the time.... that is imposible due to construction of power grid... and maybe they are depending on oil but remember there is also coal which can be used and probably is used as an energy source...

And yes they did not commited suicide or at least there is doubt that they all commited volounterly but some of them or at leas their comander did since all were dead.... and as you see it is dificult to say that they will "beg for bred" as soon as they are in south...

Do not underestimate NK... you underestimated IRAQ and now you have a guerilla war there
NK has mountains like chechenya or afghanistan they have forests like vietnam in iraq most of ppl live in cities and rural areas especialy on western part of iraq are unhabited NK has a lot of villages and smaller towns so occupation force must be veery large... and guerilla warfare is easier to be applied there.

Praxus32

01-31-2004, 04:21 PM

http://www.solarviews.com/raw/earth/earthlights.jpg

http://members.tripod.com/~RickinBham/Korea_Earthlights.jpg

Do not underestimate NK... you underestimated IRAQ and now you have a guerilla war there

350 killed by enemy fire in over a year, I'd say that is some EXTREMELY light casulties.

We did not "underestimate" anything, in fact we were exspecting casulties in the area of 1,000-2,000 during the actual war.

NK has mountains like chechenya or afghanistan they have forests like vietnam in iraq most of ppl live in cities and rural areas especialy on western part of iraq are unhabited NK has a lot of villages and smaller towns so occupation force must be veery large... and guerilla warfare is easier to be applied there.

MOUT is just as dangerous if not more so then fighting in the mountains. If there is fire coming all around you in urban areas you can't just call in humuges ammounts of artillery or CAS and blow everything apart.

Vietnam does not have forest, they have jungles, there is a significant difference.

a lot of villages and smaller towns so occupation force must be veery large

Nearly all of them would be South Koreans.

They have 2,500,000 reserves that would surely be called up.

I just suspect the PRK commanders have watched the 4G warfare evolving in Afghanistan and Iraq very closely and been advised by Serbian experts too. The most likely target for the PRK SOF would be to prevent reinforcements from Okinawa, Guam and the continental US to arrive and cause losses intolerable for the American public.

Please explain to me how they could stop American reinforcements from coming in?

Stop pretending the PRK "SOF" are some powerful weapon capable of doing anything.

Even with no Americans, the North Koreans will make it to Pusan and DIE there or die on the outskirts of Seoul. It would definatly be a pyhric victory, but a victory none the less.

With American forces the 2nd ID and Tac Air Support will turn the North Koreans into mince meat.

Skullknight

01-31-2004, 06:22 PM

520 American soldiers killed in Iraq, and I've not heard much about pulling out or that the American public can't handle it. In fact, I've never met an American citizen that believes the US should pull out simply because of the casualties.

North Korea does not have "forests" like Vietnam. Why do people even bother posting here when they don't know what they are talking about? The Korean peninsula was entirely deforested in WW2 and the Korean war. Any forest that exists now is not built-up.

As far as the belief that North Korean soldiers are better trained than American soldiers goes, that's of course entirely false. There is widespread crime and corruption in the Korean military because of the failed economy and so-called capitalist reforms (which have only encouraged corruption). Many steal or funnel to keep their families fed. They're entering their worst season in 4 years. The regular North Korean army is in pathetic shape. Conscripts entering at 15 with a height of 4'1" because of the 80s food crisis. Imagine what it will be like in 2-3 years.

To think the US and South Korea have not been examing the situation and preparing for contigencies is just delusional. North Korea's war-making capabilities are extremely limited; after a couple of weeks they would be entirely out of fuel for ground equipment, their pilots would be blown out of the sky because of inferior equipment and almost no training, their Navy could put up a fight better than the other branches but would likewise be destroyed as the ROK-DPRK sea clashes have shown how deep that "hardcore" training actually runs.

The subsequent guerilla war would be high-intensity, but with a very friendly local populous, 2.5 million South Korean troops, and many UN peacekeepers it wouldn't last long.

Praxus32

01-31-2004, 06:28 PM

The North Korean military is in shambles and barely ever has military excercises. They have food, spair parts, and feul shortages. The North Koreans are going to walking waste deep in their own dead bodies.

eggroll

01-31-2004, 06:50 PM

well I am not going to add much here since there seems to be so much expertise spilling about.

Also keep in mind that the NK social/political structure is very schizophrenic, and any who thinks that Kim Jong Ill is calling the shots is exceedingly naive.
the fact of the matter is, if the balloon were ever to go up in the Korean peninsula, it will be brutal, with 100's of thousands of casualties within 0-24 hours of combat. Seoul will not be relinquished by the South Koreans, I was witness during a CPX, as a SK General retreated his forces from Seoul - he was relieved of command on the spot and booted out of the Army a little after the conclusion of the exercise.

However, it will be a SHORT conflict as the DPRK lacks the logistical base to support a protracted conflict beyond 21-30 days.

So, have a Chocopie, eat some ojingah and down a few shots of Jinro because, it wont be a pretty sight when conflict does erupt, but in every instance the CFC does come out on top.. albeit most scenarios end up being VERY pyhrric.

EGG

Parzival

01-31-2004, 07:04 PM

That's a great army!

mocking_loudly_died

01-31-2004, 07:21 PM

Pffft North Korea.

Send me in there with a big stick and a six pack of cheap beer.

No more problem - I'll start slapping those short skinny bastards around till they start humming stars and stripes forever.

Sorry....I have been watching FOX.
:oops:

duck

01-31-2004, 07:37 PM

Skullknight: There has been an intense re-forestration program, please come to Korea sometimes to witness it's success with your own eyes. Apart from some plains around Seoul and Pusan, the whole country consists of mountains and the cities are built in valleys.

You don't seem to understand the strength of the human mind. What does a PRK SOF troop have to fear? Can something be worse than their life and training in North Korea? There are millions of family ties across the border, think of what misguided strength that gives them.

Koreans are part of a confucianist culture that puts emphasis on learning and hierarchy, the communist BS is just a layer on the top. All South Korean recruits are required to attain a "black belt" in Tae Kwon Do, Btw. Now, North Korea regularly has the upper hand in international competitions...

Praxus32

01-31-2004, 07:50 PM

Now, North Korea regularly has the upper hand in international competitions...

And thoose people in the international compotition are the very few that actually get fed well.

BAD EXAMPLE

duck

01-31-2004, 08:00 PM

Rice and a little soy sauce are enough to satisfy a human's daily nutritious needs. If you can have some vegetables with the rice you're already getting extra vitamines. And of course you need water.

Praxus32

01-31-2004, 08:11 PM

Rice and a little soy sauce are enough to satisfy a human's daily nutritious needs.

Rice and a little soy sauce is not going to satisfy your daily needs when you have to move 20 miles a day on foot with at least 30-50 lbs of gear.

mocking_loudly_died

01-31-2004, 08:15 PM

North Korean army would suck balls.

Old **** gear.

Crap conscripts that aren't being fed.

Oh, they sound impressive!

duck

01-31-2004, 08:18 PM

Not for the long term, but even I have managed to move similar distances with similar packages and stay somewhat combat ready, with only water and some dry bread.

Praxus32

01-31-2004, 08:21 PM

Not for the long term, but even I have managed to move similar distances with similar packages and stay somewhat combat ready, with only water and some dry bread.

Then what is your point?

"Somewhat" combat ready is not going to cut it when you are facing well fed well supplied enemy forces with plenty of Air Support.

duck

01-31-2004, 08:28 PM

That's the point. We got our meals eventually, the North Koreans know they have to capture them if they want to have any. But try the rice-soy sauce-vegetables diet for a while, my girl makes some killer combinations out of broccoli, garlic and herbs.

BlackRain

02-01-2004, 08:20 AM

Human flesh on sale in North Korea
By Stephen Lunn in Tokyo

STARVING North Koreans are reverting to cannibalism to survive, while farmers have been ordered to grow opium for state-endorsed overseas sale, a maker of television documentaries has claimed.

Carla Garapedian, producer of Children of the Secret State, a BBC-Channel 4 co-production, said film smuggled out of North Korea, and interviews with refugees escaping the communist state, revealed "acts of unspeakable barbarism not seen since Pol Pot's Cambodia".
"(The) footage is shocking. Starving children abandoned by the state. Orphans thrown into state asylums and left to die," Garapedian wrote in an opinion article run this week in Japan's Daily Yomiuri newspaper.

Worse, she said, were the drawings of 15-year-old Jang Gil-su, who with his family fled North Korea into China and has, while still in hiding, been recording his experiences of everyday life in his former country, where millions of people are understood to have starved to death.

The pictures, given to Garapedian by a refugee support group in Seoul, depict families eating pine bark, rats, snakes and anything else to stay alive. One shows a man at a market stall, with Jang captioning it "Man selling human flesh (saram hoki) at a farmers' market in Hoeroung city".

"All of the North Koreans we interviewed knew about it. Jang's picture of a dismembered child in a cooking pot says more than any of the numbing statistics," Garapedian wrote.

Independent verification of the practice is difficult because Hoeroung city is impossible to visit or contact in the secretive country.

"You eat it without knowing it is human flesh. You're so hungry you just eat it," she quotes one orphan as saying, claiming more than 200,000 orphans are starving in North Korea, despite the country receiving the second-most food aid in the world.

North Korean leader Kim Jong-il, desperate to garner more international aid with a freezing winter in full swing, is trying to open up his mysterious country to the outside world.

Australia was one of the first nations to reintroduce diplomatic relations with North Korea early last year. Since then, many nations have taken steps to follow suit, including Italy, Germany and Britain.

Garapedian said she had spoken to farmers who claimed to have been barred from growing food and instead ordered to grow opium. "The opium would then be processed by the state into heroin and then sold abroad. The proceeds would go to arm the military," she wrote.

North Korean officials could not be contacted for comment yesterday

Remind me NOT to eat there! It seems a little rice and vegetable meal would be a banquet for the North Koreans.